Revelation's symbolic language

[DanielConway]

Hey all.  This post is directed to the reading audience in general.  Most of you are familiar with my theory concerning the early and later Roman empires, some of you have read my paper developing this theory.  I would like to explore another theory I have, that the ten kings of Daniel and Revelation correspond to the barracks emperors of the Imperial crisis.  Developing this theory will require more accounting than pattern matching as my previous paper did, as it will require establishing which of the emperors qualify as a horn-king, that each of them hurt the city of Rome in some way, and that each of them persecuted the church.  In all frankness, some of this information may be lost, but I think it is worth a try.  I am recruiting scholars (lay or professional) to help me with this because it requires an in depth knowledge of the minutia of the period that I lack.  Full accreditation will be given to anyone who contributes. 

[DaveW]

But we must remember those people are NOT JEWS. The Jews are only of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, & Levi. While all Jews are Israelis, not all Israelis are Jews.

Actually, the term "Jew" has applied to all 12 tribes since the first century bc if not earlier.  There are mentions in rabbinic literature of a small number of the other northern tribes finding their way back to the Land since the time of Ezra and Nehemiah.  They are ALL referred to as Jews.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Because it HASN'T. Modern Israel is JEWISH; none of them claim to be of any other tribe but Judah, Levi, or Benjamin.

Once upon a time, the Samaritans took up Jewish customs and religion, and began to identified themselves as Jewish.  But, it didn't make them Jewish.  The Bible rejects them as Jews, and so did the actual Jews.

Once upon a time, the Idumeans were all forcibly converted to Judaism.  Over time, they embraced their new religion, and began to identify themselves as Jewish.  But again, they weren't really.

Nowadays, we have a group of European people imported back into the historical lands of Israel, who identify themselves as Jews and Israelis.  Most of them don't practice the Jewish religion, or Christianity, or anything else.  Are they Jews?  Really?

[robycop3]

Once upon a time, the Samaritans took up Jewish customs and religion, and began to identified themselves as Jewish.  But, it didn't make them Jewish.  The Bible rejects them as Jews, and so did the actual Jews.

Once upon a time, the Idumeans were all forcibly converted to Judaism.  Over time, they embraced their new religion, and began to identify themselves as Jewish.  But again, they weren't really.

Nowadays, we have a group of European people imported back into the historical lands of Israel, who identify themselves as Jews and Israelis.  Most of them don't practice the Jewish religion, or Christianity, or anything else.  Are they Jews?  Really?

  Given that most of them can trace their lines back to Roman times, and, given the history of the persecution they underwent, which culminated in the nazi holocaust, I believe they're really Jews. Now, many of them are of mixed ancestry, with their forebears being married into other peoples, but enough Jewishness remains in them to identify them as Jews. God certainly hasn't discarded Israel for good !

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

  Given that most of them can trace their lines back to Roman times, and, given the history of the persecution they underwent, which culminated in the nazi holocaust, I believe they're really Jews. Now, many of them are of mixed ancestry, with their forebears being married into other peoples, but enough Jewishness remains in them to identify them as Jews. God certainly hasn't discarded Israel for good !

Of course YOU do.

Anybody who actually reads the posts want to side with roby?

[DaveW]

Wy - you do not understand what it means to be a Jew.  A converted Jew is as much Jewish as a native born Jew. The only reason the Samaritans were not considered Jewish was their continued use of pagan idol worship.  When Ezra and Nehemiah came back from Babylon, most of the Jews left in the land had married foreign wives (with their idol worship) so they had to go.  So all this stuff about lineage is just fluff and smokescreen.

Tracing lines back is ONLY important for the kohanim (priests).

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Tracing lines back is ONLY important for the kohanim (priests).

Tracing lines back isn't important for the kohanim either, since that priesthood was annulled almost 2 millennia ago.

Also, check your PMs.

[DaveW]

Tracing lines back isn't important for the kohanim either, since that priesthood was annulled almost 2 millennia ago.

I know of no traditional religious Jew that believes that. 

I have known several kohenim and Levites that have read up on what they will need to do if/when the Temple is rebuilt.  There is a group called the Temple Mount Faithful who have all the ritual articles for the temple ready to go when it is rebuilt.

Also, check your PMs.

I did.  I do not know, but your avatar suggests Scottish or Irish.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

I know of no traditional religious Jew that believes that.

Practicing traditional rabbinical Judaism is not what we have been talking about.  Also, it's not a very good criteria for determining who is Jewish, which IS what we have been talking about.

I have known several kohenim and Levites that have read up on what they will need to do if/when the Temple is rebuilt.  There is a group called the Temple Mount Faithful who have all the ritual articles for the temple ready to go when it is rebuilt.

I'm aware of this, and I find it to be mis-guided.  A return to animal sacrifices is not something most Jewish people would embrace.  Even/especially the orthodox.  Did you miss the part of Judaism where the synagogue overtook the temple?  That had happened even before the 1st century.

I have known several kohenim...

Me too.  I have lunch with a bunch of them on a regular basis.  At my house, we call that "lunch with the family." 

I think I might "understand what it means to be a Jew" a little, Dave. 

[DaveW]

Practicing traditional rabbinical Judaism is not what we have been talking about.  Also, it's not a very good criteria for determining who is Jewish, which IS what we have been talking about.

Traditional Jews have EVERY RIGHT to determine who is and who is NOT a Jew.  And yes, I have been talking about traditional Judaism.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Traditional Jews have EVERY RIGHT to determine who is and who is NOT a Jew.  And yes, I have been talking about traditional Judaism.

The Jewish criteria for determining Jewishness does not involve the practice of any religion.  Most Jews today fall on the scale somewhere between atheists and deists.  Those following rabbinical thought are a shrinking minority.

Why are YOU using THAT as a criteria when even Jews don't? 

And don't tell me you got it from Christianity.  The Bible explicitly tells us to ignore genealogies, and to determine ancestry by looking at behavior.

Jarrod

[robycop3]

The Jewish criteria for determining Jewishness does not involve the practice of any religion.  Most Jews today fall on the scale somewhere between atheists and deists.  Those following rabbinical thought are a shrinking minority.

Why are YOU using THAT as a criteria when even Jews don't? 

And don't tell me you got it from Christianity.  The Bible explicitly tells us to ignore genealogies, and to determine ancestry by looking at behavior.

Jarrod

  A Jew is a Jew by ancestry. yes, I'm awaye of SPIRITUAL Israel, but God is not through with LITERAL Israel.  And remember, the names of the 12 tribes of Israel will be on the foundation of the New Jerusalem.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

A Jew is a Jew by ancestry.

How do you figure to reckon it, though?

The rabbis follow matriarchal bloodlines - i.e. if you're mom's Jewish, you're Jewish.  They have done so since roughly the beginning of the 2nd century.  But for the entire Old Testament period, bloodlines were patriarchal - determined by the father.

Why did they make that change?  It's because patriarchal bloodlines are UNRELIABLE.  You can always tell who the baby's mother is.  Unfortunately, the same can't be said about fathers.  For the Jews, whose history includes centuries of engaging in fertility cults, as well as being deported from their country in antiquity, those patriarchal genealogies are absolutely useless.  They are corrupt even from before the times of the earliest ones.  And consider the northern kingdom... they were slaughtered wholesale and the remnants dispersed to the four corners of the world.  They don't even HAVE genealogies, though they certainly have descendants.

The Jews of the New Testament period knew this.  They debated about it.  We still have records of the positions taken by Hillel and Shammai with regards to solving the problem.  Eventually, the debate was settled and the Jews changed to matriarchal lines.

But that solution does NOTHING to address the problem retroactively.  You still have centuries and centuries of unreliable paternity that you're trying to build on.  Plus, you have thousands or millions or people who are genuinely Israelite descendants, but don't even know it, having lost their cultural identity.

There was another position suggested by a rabbi during that time period, but Judaism ultimately did not adopt that position.  That position was that the true paternity of Jews (and even lost Israelites!) could be determined by observing their behavior.  Those who kept the law were Abraham's true descendants.  What rabbi who taught such a thing?  Jesus of Nazareth.

You see, what you call "spiritual Israel" was not spiritual at all to them in the 1st century.  It was a practical, pragmatic approach to solving the question of "who is a Jew?"

Jarrod