Author Topic: Revelation's symbolic language  (Read 12685 times)

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Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #35 on: Thu May 14, 2020 - 22:41:55 »
Robycop3, you’re doing it again- not reading the fine print about Hymenaeus’ and Philetus’  heresy that had made its way to the Thessalonians church.  You are misquoting them.

II Tim. 2:17-18  “And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; who concerning the truth have erred, saying THAT THE RESURRECTION IS PAST ALREADY; and overthrow the faith of some.” (As the sorrowing Thessalonians were ignorantly supposing about their dead loved ones.)

Do you see anything at all about Christ’s return having taken place already stated in this II Timothy quote?  It’s NOT there, and do you know why?  It’s because both Hymenaeus and Philetus were looking at the resurrection of Christ and the Matthew 27:52-53 saints raised to life along with Him, and were presuming that this PAST AD 33 group resurrection was the only one the saints could expect to occur.  They were right in one respect; namely, that a past, mass resurrection of saints HAD occurred along with Christ rising from the dead.  But they were mistaken that it was the one-and-only resurrection that would take place.

We know their teaching only a single past  resurrection was an error, of course.  But it was an error that sounded plausible to the first-century believers, since the Matt, 27:52-53 resurrected saints were a truly astounding number for many to witness - a “multitude of captives” (Eph. 4:8) raised along with “Christ the First-fruits” (I Cor. 25:20,23).   

Their number amounted to 144,000 First-fruits, coming from those named tribes who had been buried locally at Jerusalem (Rev. 7 and 14).  And we know these First-fruits resurrected saints were still living and ministering among the early church in those days of Paul’s ministry, because Paul said the church still had the First-fruits in Romans 8:23.  Hymenaeus and Philetus would have either seen some of them, or at the very least have heard about them, and were basing their heresy on that knowledge.

There are many, many references to these Matt. 27:52-53 resurrected saints in the NT, if you know where to look for them.  The members of the “First Resurrection” are a fascinating group.

Offline robycop3

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #36 on: Fri May 15, 2020 - 04:57:13 »
  No, that special group of Israelis has NOT yet been raised. Those who rose when Jesus died, died again, as did Lazarus, Jairus' daughter, and Dorcas. The ONLY resurrected One who didn't die again is JESUS.

  The 144K are not resurrected, but will be Israelis who will come to Jesus during the great trib, but before He physically returns.

Offline RB

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #37 on: Sat May 16, 2020 - 04:42:08 »
That's one of the Scriptures that proves preterism false.
I fully agree that preterism is false in every form of it, partial, full, or hyper. Partial are the historical of the Amill camp, which are just as corrupt. I fall in the camp of Amill idealist that is futurist yet much different from the Premill futurist of which you belong.
Quote from: robycop3 on: Thu May 14, 2020 - 17:24:04
That's one of the Scriptures that proves preterism false
Actually sir, it proves your system of eschatology to be error more than the other camps. So far you have made no attempt to answer my question to you, would you like to prove that you can, or at least admit that you cannot and you need time to research this more, which at least would show that you have a noble spirit and you to be a true seeker of God's truth. By making no attempt, also shows a side of you that would be far from possessing a noble spirit as we read of in Acts 17:10,11~ concerning the Berean Christians.
Quote from: robycop3 on: Thu May 14, 2020 - 17:24:04
And that man of sin has NOT yet been made manifest
Let us say that he has not yet come~then again, let me ask you.... "which one MUST come first, the man of sin, or Christ to gather together us unto him? 
Quote from: robycop3 on: Thu May 14, 2020 - 17:24:04
And that man of sin has NOT yet been made manifest
I contend base on the word of God that the man of sin has come.

Let me ask you another question. What is the man of sin based on God's testimony? The key is clearly seen in the phrase "Man of sin"....need a hint? Okay, then here it is: MAN of sin......man OF SIN.

I'll be waiting to hear from you. RB

Offline robycop3

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #38 on: Sat May 16, 2020 - 06:55:59 »
I fully agree that preterism is false in every form of it, partial, full, or hyper. Partial are the historical of the Amill camp, which are just as corrupt. I fall in the camp of Amill idealist that is futurist yet much different from the Premill futurist of which you belong.Actually sir, it proves your system of eschatology to be error more than the other camps. So far you have made no attempt to answer my question to you, would you like to prove that you can, or at least admit that you cannot and you need time to research this more, which at least would show that you have a noble spirit and you to be a true seeker of God's truth. By making no attempt, also shows a side of you that would be far from possessing a noble spirit as we read of in Acts 17:10,11~ concerning the Berean Christians. Let us say that he has not yet come~then again, let me ask you.... "which one MUST come first, the man of sin, or Christ to gather together us unto him?  I contend base on the word of God that the man of sin has come.

  I believe the rapture will come before the man of sin attains full power. (I believe that the man of sin, son of perdition, "that Wicked", the antichrist, & the beast from the sea will be the same man & will be indwelt by Satan himself. That's Scriptural as God Jesus said, in Rev. 3:10 - 10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. (I know He was addressing the church in Philadelphia, but His words can be applied to all Christians when the time comes.)

Quote
Let me ask you another question. What is the man of sin based on God's testimony? The key is clearly seen in the phrase "Man of sin"....need a hint? Okay, then here it is: MAN of sin......man OF SIN.

I'll be waiting to hear from you. RB

  The man of sin will be the most-evil human who will ever live. He will make Hitler & Stalin seem as naughty toddlers in comparison. He and his sidekick, the false prophet, the beast from the earth, will be so evil that, when Jesus returns, He will cast them alive into the lake of fire without any preliminaries.

  To say this man has already come is quite-imaginary.

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #38 on: Sat May 16, 2020 - 06:55:59 »
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Offline lea

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #39 on: Sat May 16, 2020 - 12:01:37 »
How sick is that- robycop3's antichrist video game!

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #39 on: Sat May 16, 2020 - 12:01:37 »



Offline robycop3

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #40 on: Sat May 16, 2020 - 14:39:20 »
How sick is that- robycop3's antichrist video game!

   Are you on drugs ?

  I didn't post any video game !

Offline RB

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #41 on: Mon May 18, 2020 - 05:50:10 »
I believe the rapture will come before the man of sin attains full power.
Greetings robycop3~you by using the word " before " shows that your understanding is against God's very own testimony to us through holy men of God of old.  Sir, this ought to concern you very much if your heart truly desires to know the truth as it is in Jesus Christ. Again, God's word said:
Quote from: Paul
2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3~"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
robycop3, I was taught personally just what you believe in when I first came to Christ almost fifty years ago when I sat under and learned from two of the most powerful premillennialist  (3 Resurrection know exactly whom I speaking about he being from the very same city and hearing the same men) Harold B. Sighter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_B._Sightler and Oliver B. Greene https://www.thegospelhour.org/ but quickly came to understand that their doctrines that I was taught had some serious holes in it that could not be supported by God's word~so, I soon left that camp and spent around ten years serious searching to know the truth, one that I could defend with the scriptures ALONE being my source of truth. Do I still highly respect these men, yes I do, they both loved God and his word, just they were dead wrong on many biblical truths. So, sir, I'm very familiar with your doctrine, could have a better knowledge of it than you even know it, but that is neither here or there and serves very little good between man and man, except to bring out the worst in man, which I have no desire to see from either of us.
Quote from: robycop3 on: Sat May 16, 2020 - 06:55:59
(I believe that the man of sin, son of perdition, "that Wicked", the antichrist, & the beast from the sea will be the same man & will be indwelt by Satan himself. .............)
So do I, yet the Preterist's camp believes that Satan and all fallen angels were destroyed in 70 A.D. So, on this point, we would agree in part ~in part because the man of sin is NOT a single individual, but ALL men who are ruled by the spirit of Devil himself in rejecting God's word as the only authority and final voice in ALL doctrines and commandments in practical living. These men that shall come to power BOTH in the temple of God (the outward professing churches) and in the affairs of ruling this world, shall no longer be ruled by the fear of God, but by their own fleshly wisdom and their own fleshly desires that they desire to do to fulfill the evil lust that will rule all men who are not sealed with Holy Spirit of God.

The great falling away STARTED IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD which was supposed to the salt and light of this world, but somewhere around the last of the 1700's and early eighteen hundred the apostasy in the temple of God begun to pick up momentum, to where we are now two hundred years later, where the true people of God have for the most part forsaken the temple of God and have fled unto the mountains, because of the ABOMINATION that God WILL make desolate sit and reigns therein.
Quote from: robycop3 on: Sat May 16, 2020 - 06:55:59
The man of sin will be the most-evil human who will ever live. He will make Hitler & Stalin seem as naughty toddlers in comparison. He and his sidekick, the false prophet, the beast from the earth, will be so evil that, when Jesus returns, He will cast them alive into the lake of fire without any preliminaries.
There is no such doctrine as a SINGLE INDIVIDUAL yet to come, basically the Devil incarnate, which would be saying that the Devil can MATCH God is sending his SON into this world through some miracle type birth~that's borderline of blaspheming!

Sir, no man living can prove that there will be  SINGLE antichrist yet to come~what was yet to come to the apostles was the spirit of antichrist coming in GREAT NUMBERS, more so than in any time in this world's history~that will take place for a little season just before the coming of Jesus Christ to gather together the very elect from the four corners of the earth. UNLESS those days were shortened, then NO FLESH would be saved~that is, saved in a PRACTICAL SENSE by having the TRUTH for MANY false prophets shall come saying I' AM Christ, that is, saying Jesus is the Christ, yet it will be another Jesus, another spirit and another gospel that is NOT the very gospel preached by the apostles of Jesus Christ~the earth shall be filled with men living under a very strong delusion of the Devil himself! 

We are NOW living in these perilous times of the last days. Selah
« Last Edit: Mon May 18, 2020 - 09:13:10 by RB »

Offline lea

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #42 on: Thu May 21, 2020 - 18:21:33 »
RB, We are not living in perilous times as the apostles were in their generation.

Give them their credit already!  Understand what Jesus said to His audience during the 30AD -70AD period!

Keep your futuristic nonsense, uneducated, opinion for hell! Thanks again!

Offline robycop3

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #43 on: Fri May 22, 2020 - 04:48:40 »
Greetings robycop3~you by using the word " before " shows that your understanding is against God's very own testimony to us through holy men of God of old.  Sir, this ought to concern you very much if your heart truly desires to know the truth as it is in Jesus Christ. Again, God's word said: robycop3, I was taught personally just what you believe in when I first came to Christ almost fifty years ago when I sat under and learned from two of the most powerful premillennialist  (3 Resurrection know exactly whom I speaking about he being from the very same city and hearing the same men) Harold B. Sighter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_B._Sightler and Oliver B. Greene https://www.thegospelhour.org/ but quickly came to understand that their doctrines that I was taught had some serious holes in it that could not be supported by God's word~so, I soon left that camp and spent around ten years serious searching to know the truth, one that I could defend with the scriptures ALONE being my source of truth. Do I still highly respect these men, yes I do, they both loved God and his word, just they were dead wrong on many biblical truths. So, sir, I'm very familiar with your doctrine, could have a better knowledge of it than you even know it, but that is neither here or there and serves very little good between man and man, except to bring out the worst in man, which I have no desire to see from either of us. So do I, yet the Preterist's camp believes that Satan and all fallen angels were destroyed in 70 A.D. So, on this point, we would agree in part ~in part because the man of sin is NOT a single individual, but ALL men who are ruled by the spirit of Devil himself in rejecting God's word as the only authority and final voice in ALL doctrines and commandments in practical living. These men that shall come to power BOTH in the temple of God (the outward professing churches) and in the affairs of ruling this world, shall no longer be ruled by the fear of God, but by their own fleshly wisdom and their own fleshly desires that they desire to do to fulfill the evil lust that will rule all men who are not sealed with Holy Spirit of God.

The great falling away STARTED IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD which was supposed to the salt and light of this world, but somewhere around the last of the 1700's and early eighteen hundred the apostasy in the temple of God begun to pick up momentum, to where we are now two hundred years later, where the true people of God have for the most part forsaken the temple of God and have fled unto the mountains, because of the ABOMINATION that God WILL make desolate sit and reigns therein.  There is no such doctrine as a SINGLE INDIVIDUAL yet to come, basically the Devil incarnate, which would be saying that the Devil can MATCH God is sending his SON into this world through some miracle type birth~that's borderline of blaspheming!

Sir, no man living can prove that there will be  SINGLE antichrist yet to come~what was yet to come to the apostles was the spirit of antichrist coming in GREAT NUMBERS, more so than in any time in this world's history~that will take place for a little season just before the coming of Jesus Christ to gather together the very elect from the four corners of the earth. UNLESS those days were shortened, then NO FLESH would be saved~that is, saved in a PRACTICAL SENSE by having the TRUTH for MANY false prophets shall come saying I' AM Christ, that is, saying Jesus is the Christ, yet it will be another Jesus, another spirit and another gospel that is NOT the very gospel preached by the apostles of Jesus Christ~the earth shall be filled with men living under a very strong delusion of the Devil himself! 

We are NOW living in these perilous times of the last days. Selah

  There's no Scripture referring to the MEN of sin. All references to the beast/antichrist are SINGULAR. Revelation says the 'beast', not "beasts", will be cast alive into the LOF. (And "false prophet" is also singular. While there have been, are, & will be, many false prophets, those Scriptures are referring to the most-evil of all of them, who will be the antichrist's deputy.)

Offline RB

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #44 on: Fri May 22, 2020 - 05:36:09 »
There's no Scripture referring to the MEN of sin. All references to the beast/antichrist are SINGULAR. Revelation says the 'beast', not "beasts", will be cast alive into the LOF. (And "false prophet" is also singular. While there have been, are, & will be, many false prophets, those Scriptures are referring to the most-evil of all of them, who will be the antichrist's deputy.)
The man of sin does not refer to ONE particular man, but man IN PARTICULAR~who has given himself over to Satan to be used against the truth. What, or, who is the man OF SIN? For our answer, we must follow the word of God, NOT UNRIGHTEOUS MAN, who will deceive and are there to do so if the fear of God is not in that man. 

Simply put, the man of sin "IS" the man of sin! A man of righteousness IS a man who works righteousness, within the temple of God as he submits to the God of the temple. He leans not unto his own wisdom, or even trust in his wisdom, but one that glories in the wisdom of God, he comes humbly into his temple to learn from, confessing his wickedness, in thoughts and deeds.

Man of sin is a collective noun meaning not ONE PERSON but all who practice sin, practically speaking and DOCTRINALLY speaking by changing, refusing to acknowledge certain truths, or by just seeking other versions that best suite their way of living and teaching the scriptures!
Quote from: Daniel
Daniel 7:25~"And he (man OF SIN~RB) shall speak great words against the most High, (as though he is speaking FOR HIM-RB) and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
We use collectives nouns all of the times when referring to many, not just to one person. Man of God refers to ALL men who speak on behalf of God. Man OF war refers to ALL men who go to war. When we say the "jury is out" we are speaking not of one person but all on the jury. Even the many people who believe the man of sin is the pope used it in the same sense that we understand it~and we will add, that the pope is ONE of many man of sin, but that does not leave out many others such as the prosperity gospel thieves of our day; and millions of more that are not Catholics. 
« Last Edit: Fri May 22, 2020 - 05:40:05 by RB »

Offline robycop3

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #45 on: Mon May 25, 2020 - 13:34:21 »
  We see this same man in Revelation as the beast from the sea, & we see the beast from the earth, the false prophet, as his sidekick. These TWO will be cast alive directly into the LOF when Jesus returns. There's not a hint of collectiveness in any mention of that man. Daniel calls him "the prince", Paul calls him "the MAN ,not "men", of sin, the SON, not "sons" of perdition, & "that Wicked", not "those Wickeds". And Paul said HE will enter the temple. All the wicked men on earth couldn't fit into one temple !

  Nice try, but there's no collective noun indicated here !

Offline lea

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #46 on: Wed May 27, 2020 - 18:39:32 »
  We see this same man in Revelation as the beast from the sea, & we see the beast from the earth, the false prophet, as his sidekick. These TWO will be cast alive directly into the LOF when Jesus returns. There's not a hint of collectiveness in any mention of that man. Daniel calls him "the prince", Paul calls him "the MAN ,not "men", of sin, the SON, not "sons" of perdition, & "that Wicked", not "those Wickeds". And Paul said HE will enter the temple. All the wicked men on earth couldn't fit into one temple !

  Nice try, but there's no collective noun indicated here !
Sidekick? G
You have nothing of value to argue with.

The Roman armies already entered the temple and sacrificed pigs and crap and all offensive crap to the Jews.

The Jews are no longer God's "chosen people." Get that through your head and get lost!

Offline robycop3

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #47 on: Thu May 28, 2020 - 05:12:10 »
Sidekick? G
You have nothing of value to argue with.

The Roman armies already entered the temple and sacrificed pigs and crap and all offensive crap to the Jews.

  No, they didn't. They merely destroyed in it. Their leader, Titus, did NOT declare himself to be God in it, nor eas the marka the beast then issued.

Quote
The Jews are no longer God's "chosen people." Get that through your head and get lost!

 Israel is still God's PECULIAR people, whether you like it or not. (Of course, individual Jews & Israelis must come to JESUS, same as anyone else.)

Offline lea

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #48 on: Sat May 30, 2020 - 20:04:35 »
Peculiar?  Now your defending them from another angle?

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #49 on: Sun May 31, 2020 - 05:26:25 »
Peculiar?  Now your defending them from another angle?

"Peculiar" is the term used in Scripture.

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #50 on: Sun May 31, 2020 - 05:38:28 »
Peculiar?  Now your defending them from another angle?

  That's the Scriptural term. Some translations read "God's own possession" or "special".

Offline lea

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #51 on: Sun May 31, 2020 - 12:40:09 »
John's view of the Great Tribulation from apocalyptic language.

Tyrone

Sun, 30 Aug 2009 11:01:00 +0000
Before we start the last study on the great tribulation let me say please do not let anyone ever tell you that any scri pture in the Bible has nothing to do with salvation. All of the Bible is about God’s plan of salvation form the book of Genesis to Revelation.

People have had the desire to understand the book of Revelation but many have often given up due to the highly apocalyptic language within the book. "The book of Revelation is apocalyptic; therefore, I can never understand it." Well the truth is God never meant for the book of Revelation to be a great mystery to Christians.

The first thing one must understand about the book of Revelation is that it is a book composed almost entirely of symbols ..... symbols that a first century Jew would have found immediately recognizable. These symbols were used before in such books as Deuteronomy, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Jeremiah, Hosea, and Zechariah. They are closely associated with the book of Revelation.

For example in the Tabernacle the only light in the Holy Place would have come from the golden lampstands. We find the details for the lampstands listed in Exodus 25. And we find the symbolic use both in Zechariah 4 and Revelation 1. In the case of Revelation reference Christ is the source of the light. Zechariah used the lampstands in a similar manner, as Jehovah God is the light source.

So John would naturally borrow from their Old Testament Jewish imagery and symbols. Many of the events recorded in the Old Testament were strikingly filmier whether in reality or symbolically to the Jewish Christians of that day. Bringing those events to memory would serve to drive home the messages in Revelation.

These symbols were not selected as (fill in) by the Holy Spirit when He inspired the book, and they do not stand for just anything we may desire in our future. These symbols were not strange to John's original audience to whom the book was written. These symbols were generally understood that Revelation drew on spiritual truths and historical realities. Symbols were like flags being raised that great tribulation was coming. While those being warned would not heed it. Believers, understood these symbols as signs of victory.

John’s writing in Revelation 17:1-18 is quite unique as he takes a series of pictures that when put together become a full-motion picture. John is like the photographer who, in capturing a scene, takes pictures from many different angles, that can be seen throughout the book. John will take a series of pictures and then he will move around to a different point of observation. Here John tell the same story of the great tribulation but in apocalyptic language.

We begin with John’s snap shot of (Revelation 17:1-2) Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me, "Come, I will show you (the judgment) of the (great harlot) who sits on many waters, with whom the kings of the earth (committed fornication), and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication." (emphasis added)

The women here is pictured and introduced as a prostitute women. This arrangement with Roman can be seen beginning with the crucifixion of Christ. The Romans had no desire to kill Jesus. It was the wicked Jews who shouted ‘Crucify him! Crucify Let his blood be on us and our children (Matthews 27:22-25). And it was the wicked Jews who said. "If you let this Man go, you are not Caesar's friend. Whoever makes himself a king speaks against Caesar." (John 19:12)

Spiritual fornication or harlotry in scri pture indicates the breaking of God’s covenant, or a departure from his ways (Ezekiel 16: 6-22). The LORD said also to me in the days of Josiah the king: "Have you seen what backsliding Israel has done? She has gone up on every high mountain and under every green tree, and there played the harlot. (Jeremiah 3:6) The nation of Israel had been in covenant relationship with God for 15.000 years, and had been referred to as a women married to the Lord, had sworn faith and love in all things to her rightful husband; but as was so often the case in Old Testament apostasies, even so now in the day of her redemption and visitation, she has shamefully forsaken and rejected him in whoring after strangers. (Jeremiah 3:20 concerning Jerusalem) Surely, as a wife treacherously departs from her husband, So have you dealt treacherously with Me, O house of Israel.’ says the Lord.

What is meant by she sits on many waters or lives by many waters’? This terminology is used in (Jeremiah 51:13) concerning the ancient city of Babylon were it was first applied.. There it denoted the vast expanse of influence she had in both civil and political realms. "waters" in Revelation often signifies "people" or nations instead of "H2O." (Dwelling upon many waters) denoted the broad expanse of the Babylon kingdom in the exercise of its political and civil power. Babylon was the civil king of that day. Jerusalem was to the world religiously what Babylon was politically.

John new move around to a different point of observation. So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a (woman sitting on a scarlet beast) which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. (Revelation 17:3) Here the harlot women is riding or sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

An interpretive angel appears for the express purpose of explaining the vision: "But the angel said to me, "Why did you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns." (Rev 17:7). Then in verses 9 and 10 this angel explains the vision: "Here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitting. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space."

Most evangelical scholars recognize that the seven mountains represent the famed seven hills of Rome. The recipients of Revelation lived under the rule of Rome, which was universally distinguished by its seven hills would have immediately recognizable this symbol. How could the recipients, living in the seven historical churches of Asia Minor and under Roman imperial rule, understand anything else but this geographical picture of John?

But there is an additional information involved. The seven heads have a two-fold referent. We learn also that the seven heads represent a political situation in which five kings have fallen, the sixth is, and the seventh is yet to come and will remain but a short while. It is surely no accident that Nero was the sixth emperor of Rome, who reigned after the deaths of his five predecessors and before the brief rule of the seventh emperor.

Flavius Josephus, the Jewish contemporary of John, clearly points out that Julius Caesar was the first emperor of Rome and that he was followed in succession by Augustus, Tiberius, Caius, Claudius, and Nero (Antiquities 18; 19). We discover this enumeration also in other near contemporaries of John: 4 Ezra 11 and 12; Sibylline Oracles, books 5 and 8; Barnabas, Epistle 4; Suetonius, Lives of the Twelve Caesars; and Dio Cassius’ Roman History 5.

The text of Revelation says of the seven kings "five have fallen." The first five emperors are dead, when John writes. But the verse goes on to say "one is." That is, the sixth one is then reigning even as John wrote. That would be Nero Caesar, who assumed imperial power upon the death of Claudius in October, A.D. 54, and remained emperor until June, A.D. 68.

John continues: "The other is not yet come; and when he comes, he must continue a short space." When the Roman Civil Wars broke out in rebellion against him, Nero committed suicide on June 8, A.D. 68. The seventh king was "not yet come." That would be Galba, who assumed power in June, A.D. 68. But he was only to continue a "short space." His reign lasted but six months, until January 15, A.D. 69. Thus, we see that while John wrote, Nero was still alive and Galba was looming in the near future. Revelation could not have been written after June, A.D. 68, according to the internal political evidence. In this vision we discover strong evidence that Revelation was written before the death of Nero, which occurred on June 8, A.D. 68.

The woman/whore represents apostate Jerusalem and sitting on the beast means she has the political power she controls the beast. A beast is a symbol used to depict a political state, such as the lion, bear, and leopard of Daniel 7, representing the kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persian and Greece respectively.

The ten horns of the beast (17:12-17) are defined as ten kings or provincial governors who aided in the war against the Lamb Christ. verse 14. Farrar lists ten major provinces that constituted the Roman Empire in the days of Nero–namely: Italy, Achaia, Asia, Syria, Egypt, Africa, Spain, Gaul, Britain and Germany. They united with Nero in the matter of war against the Lamb, and of Christian persecution.

The interpretive angel further explains the identify the harlot woman in his vision: The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication. (Revelation 17:4) The garment of this women is the exact garment of the high priest of Israel, according to the Bible, contained specific colors:

"Now take Aaron your brother, and his sons with him, from among the children of Israel, that he may minister to Me as priest, Aaron and Aaron's sons: Nadab, Abihu, Eleazar, and Ithamar. And you shall make holy garments for Aaron your brother, for glory and for beauty. So you shall speak to all who are gifted artisans, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom, that they may make Aaron's garments, to consecrate him, that he may minister to Me as priest. And these are the garments which they shall make: a breastplate, an ephod, a robe, a skillfully woven tunic, a turban, and a sash. So they shall make holy garments for Aaron your brother and his sons, that he may minister to Me as priest. "They shall take the gold, blue, purple, and scarlet thread, and the fine linen, and they shall make the ephod of gold, blue, purple, and scarlet thread, and fine woven linen, artistically worked. It shall have two shoulder straps joined at its two edges, and so it shall be joined together. And the intricately woven band of the ephod, which is on it, shall be of the same workmanship, made of gold, blue, purple, and scarlet thread, and fine woven linen. "Then you shall take two onyx stones and engrave on them the names of the sons of Israel: (Exodus 28:1-9)

The garments of the high priest include gold, purple, scarlet, and blue. This de scri ption is of the woman of (Revelation 17:4)

John now move around to a different point of observation and takes another picture that makes the harlot woman becomes ever clearer. And on her forehead a name was written: MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement. (Revelation 17:5-6)

cont'd...........

BUMP!

Offline robycop3

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #52 on: Sun May 31, 2020 - 13:28:19 »
  Sorry, but he blew it with Nero & the kings. The kings were the kings of Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, & Greece. The one that then was, was the king (Caesar) of Rome. The 7th was the king of the Holy Roman Empire. The 8th will be the empire of the beast/antichrist, which will at first be made up of the peoples of the old Roman & HR empires.

  There's little question that the harlot riding the beast of Rev. 17 at first is the city of Rome, Italy which, in the form of the Vatican, will try to control the antichrist & his empire. However, we see the antichrist tirn on "her", which he will do soon as the RCC's usefulness to him is over.

Offline lea

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #53 on: Sun May 31, 2020 - 15:31:00 »
  Sorry, but he blew it with Nero & the kings. The kings were the kings of Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, & Greece. The one that then was, was the king (Caesar) of Rome. The 7th was the king of the Holy Roman Empire. The 8th will be the empire of the beast/antichrist, which will at first be made up of the peoples of the old Roman & HR empires.

  There's little question that the harlot riding the beast of Rev. 17 at first is the city of Rome, Italy which, in the form of the Vatican, will try to control the antichrist & his empire. However, we see the antichrist tirn on "her", which he will do soon as the RCC's usefulness to him is over.

Yes, we know, Rome was the city where the "Lord was crucified!"

What an idiot.

Offline robycop3

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #54 on: Sun May 31, 2020 - 17:00:48 »
Yes, we know, Rome was the city where the "Lord was crucified!"

  Actually, he was crucified just outside JERUSALEM.

Quote
What an idiot.

 Yes, you are.

Offline lea

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #55 on: Sun May 31, 2020 - 19:55:32 »
  Actually, he was crucified just outside JERUSALEM.

Bingo!  Exactly what Rev.11 says. The harlot is NEVER Rome. Rome was heathen and couldn't backslide away from God. Israel had a symbiotic relationship with Rome for a time - until the Jews rebelled and Rome destroyed her.

The harlot riding the Beast is 1st century apostate Jerusalem.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #56 on: Sun May 31, 2020 - 20:16:46 »
The term “peculiar” and “holy nation” were indeed used for ancient Israel. 

But since the day that the New Covenant in Christ was launched with Christ’s establishment as our deathless high priest, as children of the faith we believers are now given the same title of “a peculiar people, zealous of good works” in Titus 2:14.

My KJV has the margin note alternative for ”peculiar people” as being a “purchased people”, which is appropriate for ancient ethnic Israel under the Old Covenant as well as the saints under the New Covenant.

I Peter 2:9 uses the same recognizable term, calling the believers “...an holy nation, a peculiar people, that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.”

This just underscores that the true “Israel of God” has always been composed of the true worshippers who worship in spirit and in truth.  “They are not all Israel which are of Israel.”


Offline robycop3

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #57 on: Mon Jun 01, 2020 - 04:51:07 »
Bingo!  Exactly what Rev.11 says. The harlot is NEVER Rome. Rome was heathen and couldn't backslide away from God. Israel had a symbiotic relationship with Rome for a time - until the Jews rebelled and Rome destroyed her.

The harlot riding the Beast is 1st century apostate Jerusalem.

MMRRPP !   WRONG !

  The last verse of Rev. 17 says "she" is that great city that reigns over the kings of the earth. At that time, that could only mean ROME. Jerusalem never fulfilled that role.

Offline lea

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #58 on: Mon Jun 01, 2020 - 13:44:50 »
MMRRPP !   WRONG !

  The last verse of Rev. 17 says "she" is that great city that reigns over the kings of the earth. At that time, that could only mean ROME. Jerusalem never fulfilled that role.
One should discern the prophecy correctly.
18  And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth."


The great city" is Jerusalem (Rev.11:8; 16:19; 1Pet.5:13; Jer.22:8).
She does not rule over the kings of the world, but the earth, the covenant people of God. The kings of the EARTH were Herod and the rulers of the people who gathered together against Christ and his church. (Acts 4:23-27)
Jerusalem was the capital city of Judea and reigned over all the kings and governors and rulers of the Jews.

Josephus described her by saying, "the royal city Jerusalem was supreme. and presided over all the neighboring country, as the head does over the body." In another place he referred to it as the very face and head of the whole nation." (Wars 111,iii, 5)

"The Bible is not about secular history or the cities of the world, but about God's redemptive purpose for mankind. This purpose was bound up in Jerusalem, not Rome.

The destruction of Rome had no eschatological significance, but the fall of Jerusalem did: it was an eschatological event marking the consummation of the ages. O.T. prophet and the Lord all prophesied at length about the destruction of Jerusalem. Jesus wept over Jerusalem, not Rome."~ Kurt Simmons- The Consummation of the Ages.

Offline robycop3

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #59 on: Mon Jun 01, 2020 - 16:27:25 »
One should discern the prophecy correctly.
18  And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth."


The great city" is Jerusalem (Rev.11:8; 16:19; 1Pet.5:13; Jer.22:8).
She does not rule over the kings of the world, but the earth, the covenant people of God. The kings of the EARTH were Herod and the rulers of the people who gathered together against Christ and his church. (Acts 4:23-27)
Jerusalem was the capital city of Judea and reigned over all the kings and governors and rulers of the Jews.

Josephus described her by saying, "the royal city Jerusalem was supreme. and presided over all the neighboring country, as the head does over the body." In another place he referred to it as the very face and head of the whole nation." (Wars 111,iii, 5)

"The Bible is not about secular history or the cities of the world, but about God's redemptive purpose for mankind. This purpose was bound up in Jerusalem, not Rome.

The destruction of Rome had no eschatological significance, but the fall of Jerusalem did: it was an eschatological event marking the consummation of the ages. O.T. prophet and the Lord all prophesied at length about the destruction of Jerusalem. Jesus wept over Jerusalem, not Rome."~ Kurt Simmons- The Consummation of the Ages.

  Trying to change the meaning of Scripture again ! Your silliness continues !

"Earth" is the planet we occupy, & that's what God meant in the vision John saw.

Offline lea

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #60 on: Mon Jun 01, 2020 - 20:54:57 »

Not. The "earth" in this instance is the land - the land of Israel. Just like the 2nd beast in Rev13, it was a beast from the "earth" or "land."

Earth in Scripture is usually meant to describe a land that is being referred to in the book..

"Sea" represents Gentile nations or foreign nations. (As Beast #1)

"All the tribes of the earth" meant just that. All the tribes of the earth shall wail because of Him"

It's eyes of understanding . Caiaphas and the whole nation of the Jews would see and perceive that the nation's destruction was the Revelation of Christ in glory!

Offline robycop3

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #61 on: Tue Jun 02, 2020 - 04:30:07 »
Not. The "earth" in this instance is the land - the land of Israel. Just like the 2nd beast in Rev13, it was a beast from the "earth" or "land."

Earth in Scripture is usually meant to describe a land that is being referred to in the book..

"Sea" represents Gentile nations or foreign nations. (As Beast #1)

"All the tribes of the earth" meant just that. All the tribes of the earth shall wail because of Him"

It's eyes of understanding . Caiaphas and the whole nation of the Jews would see and perceive that the nation's destruction was the Revelation of Christ in glory!

  You have quite an imagination. But you're wrong to try to change the meaning of what GOD caused to be written. Jesus is the Savior of the WORLD, not just the Jews or Israelis. He created ALL men, and ALL living people are candeidates for salvation. And the punishment of the world will be worldwide, as will be Jesus' rule when He returns.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #62 on: Tue Jun 02, 2020 - 08:08:36 »
Robycop3, this is NOT changing the meaning of what God wrote.  Have you never read God addressing specifically the LAND OF JUDAH in Jer. 22:29?  He says “O EARTH, EARTH, EARTH hear the word of the Lord.”  Both Coniah and his mother would not be allowed to return to THE LAND where they were born, but would die in exile in another country.  This is only one of multiple examples where the word “EARTH” or “LAND” in the OT and NT refer to the promised land of Israel specifically. 

When scripture wants to convey the idea of a worldwide event, it uses the Greek words “oikoumenes” or “kosmos” which encompass more than just the more limited spaces of the land of Canaan (which uses the word “ge”).

We have already proved that this WORLDWIDE tribulation was “ABOUT TO COME UPON THE WHOLE HABITABLE WORLD” SOON AFTER the time John was writing Rev. 3:10.
« Last Edit: Tue Jun 02, 2020 - 08:12:51 by 3 Resurrections »

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #63 on: Tue Jun 02, 2020 - 10:55:31 »


We have already proved that this WORLDWIDE tribulation was “ABOUT TO COME UPON THE WHOLE HABITABLE WORLD” SOON AFTER the time John was writing Rev. 3:10.

 ::doh:: ::frown:: ::doh::

You have attempted to prove your erroneous translations. And failed.

The temple destruction has nothing to do with what John was shown.


Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #64 on: Tue Jun 02, 2020 - 15:16:09 »
Uhh, Rella, I’m only quoting from the YLT when I write that this time of tribulation was “ABOUT TO COME UPON THE WHOLE HABITABLE WORLD...”.  No less than 7 other translations besides the YLT use the very same terms of imminence for this worldwide tribulation that was “ABOUT TO COME” upon the whole world as John was writing Revelation.  Are they ALL “erroneous translations”? 

I should ask, I suppose, if you are as averse to using the original languages as RB.  I know he avoids referring to Greek and Hebrew as a “corruption” contrary to the KJV, which he uses exclusively.  Are you of the same mind? 

Those who ignore the use of the Greek term “mello” in verses like Rev. 3:10 inevitably miss the message telling just how soon those events would transpire.  To you, I suppose God never puts a specific time marker on any message He conveys.  We’ll just have to disagree on that, since I see Him putting time markers all over the place throughout the scriptures, both OT and NT. 

And if you compare the Zechariah text of the take-down of Jerusalem and Judah in the “siege” that the prophet describes, the verses about the tribes looking on the returning Christ that they had once pierced is common to both Zechariah 12:10 and Revelation 1:7.   How you can say that Revelation does not describe the AD 70 take-down of the “great city” Jerusalem is beyond me, because these two verses and prophets , Zechariah and John, were speaking of the same occasion.

Offline robycop3

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #65 on: Wed Jun 03, 2020 - 04:41:12 »
  However, the great trib has not yet happened.

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #66 on: Wed Jun 03, 2020 - 11:08:38 »
  However, the great trib has not yet happened.
Reported you to moderators for-
Trolling with hostility. 

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #67 on: Wed Jun 03, 2020 - 15:04:49 »
Reported you to moderators for-
Trolling with hostility.

And that is really the pot calling the kettle.

Sheeeeesh

Online Rella

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #68 on: Wed Jun 03, 2020 - 16:16:37 »
Uhh, Rella, I’m only quoting from the YLT when I write that this time of tribulation was “ABOUT TO COME UPON THE WHOLE HABITABLE WORLD...”.  No less than 7 other translations besides the YLT use the very same terms of imminence for this worldwide tribulation that was “ABOUT TO COME” upon the whole world as John was writing Revelation.  Are they ALL “erroneous translations”? 


That would depend on who copied whom.....

Never said they were wrong.I am saying your understanding of what they say is wrong because About to come upon is an apt description from Adam to our day
because you cannot relate time in God's world...who is the one instructing either through revelation, inspiration or Jesus in person through God instructing him to relate things...

In God time we have been alive as mankind just a very short time.


I should ask, I suppose, if you are as averse to using the original languages as RB.  I know he avoids referring to Greek and Hebrew as a “corruption” contrary to the KJV, which he uses exclusively.  Are you of the same mind? 

Absolutely not. If you have ever read anything in the theological debates under name Rella or my AKA seekingHiswisdom you would know how many times I have gone back to my Greek interlinear as well as any of these. I do not like modern
translations. Period.

I use King Jimmy's simply because that is one that most all have readsome of at one time or another... I sometimeswill go with NKJV.

In addition I am constantly referencing:  among others like the Geneva.... I just happen to have these bookmarked.

ARAMAIC SCRIPTURES
https://www.thearamaicscriptures.com/matthews-gospel.html

CODEX SINAITICUS

http://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/manuscript.aspx?book=33&chapter=1&lid=en&side=r&zoomSli
CODEX VATICANUS


HEBREW ENGLISH     (Gen 7)
Genesis 7 / Hebrew - English Bible / Mechon-Mamre

COMPLETE JEWISH BIBLE
https://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Complete-Jewish-Bible-CJB/#booklist

DAKE BIBLE pre ADAMIC
http://dakereader.proboards.com/thread/35

FULL TEXT OF GENESIS A TRANSLATED
https://archive.org/stream/genesisa15612gut/15612.txt

GENESIS B
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_B


GREEK ENGLISH INTERLINEAR
https://www.logosapostolic.org/bibles/interlinear_nt.htm
used more then the others by far.


MATTHEW 1 PARALLEL CHAPTERS
https://biblehub.com/matthew/1.htm



Those who ignore the use of the Greek term “mello” in verses like Rev. 3:10 inevitably miss the message telling just how soon those events would transpire.

Rev 3:10  Greek/English  interlinear says ...
Because you have kept the word of the endurance of me, I also will keep you from the hour of the trial the one being about to come upon the habitable whole world,
to test those dwelling on earth.
https://www.logosapostolic.org/interlinear-nt/revelation/03.htm

Not that matters, but I have a lineage traced back to biblical times to Irleand and Finland.That would be incorporated in the habitable whole world I think.

 To you, I suppose God never puts a specific time marker on any message He conveys.  We’ll just have to disagree on that, since I see Him putting time markers all over the place throughout the scriptures, both OT and NT. 

We disagree. Yes.

And if you compare the Zechariah text of the take-down of Jerusalem and Judah in the “siege” that the prophet describes, the verses about the tribes looking on the returning Christ that they had once pierced is common to both Zechariah 12:10 and Revelation 1:7.   How you can say that Revelation does not describe the AD 70 take-down of the “great city” Jerusalem is beyond me, because these two verses and prophets , Zechariah and John, were speaking of the same occasion.

I seeZechariah 12:10 nkjv saying
10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

And Rev 1:7 nlkv saying

Revelation 1:7 New King James Version (NKJV)
7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

I simply do not see Zech supporting an appearance of Jesus here at all. Spiritually or otherwise. For if that were to have happened they would not be grieving for him  they would have been rejoicing. Not missing him.

As to Rev. While there is a similarity here they are not grieving for Him, the tribes of the earth will be in mourning because of Him. Because they will know what they have done and lost.

Now I have a question for you. You believe in 3 resurections?

Without biblical reference can you simply say why? And can you explain, if 70ADwere true, what is the reason for continuing life as has been after 70AD?






Offline lea

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #69 on: Thu Jun 04, 2020 - 17:20:01 »
Rella posted;
Quote
Revelation 1:7 New King James Version (NKJV)
7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

I simply do not see Zech supporting an appearance of Jesus here at all. Spiritually or otherwise. For if that were to have happened they would not be grieving for him  they would have been rejoicing. Not missing him.

As to Rev. While there is a similarity here they are not grieving for Him, the tribes of the earth will be in mourning because of Him. Because they will know what they have done and lost.
Don't see it?  Read it again. It even ends with God saying He will remove the evil spirits from the land in Zechariah.  How cool, no evil spirits around today!

Him Whom They Have Pierced

10 “And zI will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and zpleas for mercy, so that, awhen they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, bthey shall mourn for him, cas one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn. 11 oOn that day dthe mourning in Jerusalem will be as great eas the mourning for Hadad-rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12 The land shall mourn, feach family1 by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of gNathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; 13 the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of hthe Shimeites by itself, and their wives by themselves; 14 and all the families that are left, each by itself, and their wives by themselves.

13 i“On that day there shall be ja fountain opened for the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and uncleanness.

Idolatry Cut Off

2 “And ion that day, declares the Lord of hosts, kI will cut off the names of the idols from the land, so that lthey shall be remembered no more. And also mI will remove from the land the prophets and the spirit of uncleanness.

 

     
anything