Revelation's symbolic language

[robycop3]

  There are LOTS of evil spirits around today. The prevalence of sin is the proof.

[lea]

  There are LOTS of evil spirits around today. The prevalence of sin is the proof.

I do not disagree that there are evil people in the world.  But that's not the same as an evil spirit lurking around literally as it was in Christ's day in the first century.  God said he would remove them and I believe it.

It's the same idea with Satan. In the first century AD, the devil roamed like a roaring lion. Jesus even prayed for Peter that he wouldn't be sifted like wheat by Satan. But God soon crushed Satan under his feet in AD70.
His memory or influence may be around. But evil people do act like devils themselves with evil actions.

[3 Resurrections]

Hi Rella,

You asked a question at the close of your reply regarding the reason and purpose of life on earth post-AD 70.  It is NOT “life as usual” now after AD 70, because, as lea has also brought up, Zechariah 13:2 said that all the “unclean spirits” were going to “pass out of the land”. This getting rid of all unclean spirits from the Satanic realm was included in Zechariah 12-14’s prophesied list of about 16 things that were all scheduled to happen “IN THAT DAY”.

You asked for a simple explanation of why I believe 3 resurrections are pictured in scripture.  I believe the pattern of the 3 required harvest feast celebrations under Mosaic law (Passover, Pentecost, and the Feast of Tabernacles) was the simplest way God could portray His intentions for 3 resurrections that would harvest the bodies of His saints in 3 stages from the dust of the grave. 

Even a very young Israelite child could see and understand the similarity between a resurrected human body and the sprouting of a buried seed in their father’s fields.  The substance of each planted seed (just like the substance of a dead human body) would be subsumed into the sprouting seed that would be harvested when ripened.  There was great rejoicing in Israel during the 3 harvests from the fields (just like God the “husbandman” would rejoice in the 3 “harvests” of the bodies of His saints, in 3 resurrections timed to occur at the very same seasons of the year). 

We know without question that Christ the Firstfruits and the Matt. 27:52-53 saints were  raised to life together during the Passover week celebration (AD 33).  This Matt. 27 group of resurrected saints fulfilled the symbolism of the “sheaf handful” of barley offered in the temple as the token handful of Firstfruits - a symbol representing the even greater wheat harvest soon to come at Pentecost. 

Significantly, along with that “sheaf handful” that represented the Firstfruits of the barley harvest, a SINGLE MALE LAMB of the first year was also offered in the Temple at the SAME TIME (Lev. 23:12).  This was a picture of Christ the Firstfruits as the spotless Lamb of God rising from the dead along with the other Firstfruits (144,000 from the Jewish tribes, coming from the graves around Jerusalem, as Matt. 27:52-53 tells us).

Because every detail between Christ and the  “First Resurrection” in AD 33 matches the OT Passover ceremonial rites so beautifully and precisely, there is a definite purpose for believing that the symbolism of the other two harvest feast celebrations would likewise follow suit with two more bodily resurrections to follow at those specific times of the year later down the road in history. 

Sure enough, Daniel 12:11-13’s prediction of a resurrection on the very specific 1,335th day falls on Pentecost Day in AD 70.   And since Zechariah 14:16-19 specifically mentions ONLY the last, 3rd, remaining harvest feast celebration (the Feast of Tabernacles) to be remembered after Jerusalem’s AD 70 siege he had just predicted in Zech. 12-14, then THAT time of year will be the occasion for the final 3rd resurrection for us in our future. 

Every saint gets their promised inheritance of a resurrected, incorruptible body standing in God’s presence; just not all at the same time.  This is the “hope” that we as living saints have today, and is the reason for history continuing after AD 70.  The complete picture of a full, Israelite agricultural year of “harvests” will not be finished until we ourselves are “harvested” in the final 3rd resurrection.

[robycop3]

I do not disagree that there are evil people in the world.  But that's not the same as an evil spirit lurking around literally as it was in Christ's day in the first century.  God said he would remove them and I believe it.

It's the same idea with Satan. In the first century AD, the devil roamed like a roaring lion. Jesus even prayed for Peter that he wouldn't be sifted like wheat by Satan. But God soon crushed Satan under his feet in AD70.
His memory or influence may be around. But evil people do act like devils themselves with evil actions.

  Satan & evil spirits are very-much around. I believe my late dad when he said Hitler had a demon that left him when France fell. And again, the prevalence of sin is all the proof necessary to show Satan is still around.

[lea]

  Satan & evil spirits are very-much around. I believe my late dad when he said Hitler had a demon that left him when France fell. And again, the prevalence of sin is all the proof necessary to show Satan is still around.

I have peace about Satan being powerless in the Lake of Fire.  We do not have an accuser before God anymore.  Something against me I call the enemy because he's not able to be a deceiver now-
as he was in the first century AD.

My attitude is that I trample on snakes and scorpions if needed.

Evil people like Hitler, Stalin, are just that.  Perhaps they identified with the devil in the LOF, raising its ugly head while being tortured all the while by God.

 

[robycop3]

I have peace about Satan being powerless in the Lake of Fire.  We do not have an accuser before God anymore.  Something against me I call the enemy because he's not able to be a deceiver now-
as he was in the first century AD.

My attitude is that I trample on snakes and scorpions if needed.

Evil people like Hitler, Stalin, are just that.  Perhaps they identified with the devil in the LOF, raising its ugly head while being tortured all the while by God.

  Satan is NOT in the LOF yet. He has NOT yet been banished to the abyss for 1K years. He's still roaming the earth as a roaring lion, looking for people like YOU to become in thrall to his false doctrines, to the point where you don't believe God's word where it's "inconvenient" for your pret silliness.

[lea]

 Prove it!

 I haven't literally seen any devils around!  Show me one   

[robycop3]

Prove it!

 I haven't literally seen any devils around!  Show me one 

 SURE, when you show me an angel...

[Choir Loft]

What is meant by she sits on many waters or lives by many waters’? This terminology is used in (Jeremiah 51:13) concerning the ancient city of Babylon were it was first applied.. There it denoted the vast expanse of influence she had in both civil and political realms. "waters" in Revelation often signifies "people" or nations instead of "H2O." (Dwelling upon many waters) denoted the broad expanse of the Babylon kingdom in the exercise of its political and civil power. Babylon was the civil king of that day. Jerusalem was to the world religiously what Babylon was politically.

NOBODY, repeat nobody really cares about Biblical interpretation of Revelation - or any other book of the Bible, especially Christians.

Case in point is the skewed interpretation presented in the leading post.   The question is asked "what is meant by she sits on many waters"?  This is not a reference to Babylon at this point in scripture. 

The Bible interprets itself, if the reader is so inclined to discover the meaning God intended to convey.

Then the angel said to me, "The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages. - Revelation 17:15

In Revelation 13 a beast rises out of many waters - which according to Revelation 17 is many peoples.  This tells us two things primarily - that the beast isn't a person and that the sea is a huge number of people.  In other words, the sea beast is either an organization, religious system or nation.   Other entries in Revelation identifies the beast with religious observance.  Its not that difficult to understand, providing one doesn't have an agenda to twist scripture in the first place.

Most "teaching" about the End Times rests upon Protestant novelizations and Roman Catholic doctrine.

Three good examples are denial of the LAW, the Hal Lindsay series and the Rapture doctrine.

- Biblically illiterate Christians deny the Biblical principle that apart from the LAW one cannot be saved. 
     Instead they falsely assert Christ destroyed the LAW when in fact He did not.  (Matthew 5:17)  Jesus came to destroy SIN, not the LAW. 
     Consequently most churches now exist in a state of licentiousness and are proud of it.
     Which of the 10 commandments can one break and still please God?

- Lindsay is an opportunist who capitalizes on fear mongering and religious pride.  He's made a lot of money in the god business.

- The rapture doctrine has its roots in Roman Catholic attempts to subvert the protestant reformation. 

The rapture doctrine was originally introduced by Francisco Ribera in a 1590 publication that attempted to refute Martin Luther's assertions to support the Protestant Reformation.  In the mid-19th century it was reintroduced by John Nelson Darby , a known consort of witches, to gullible and intellectually shallow American protestants.  In both examples, brain dead Christians absolutely refuse to explore the history of these arguments as well as the illogic and almost total subversion of Biblical intent.  They even assert that one isn't a Christian if one refuses to accept Catholic (rapture) doctrine, Lindsay's imaginary predictions and rejection of the LAW, rather than the blood of Christ.   It isn't about the cross, boys and girls.  Its about church membership (a Catholic doctrine, btw).

I can go on and on, but what is the purpose?  Protestant fanatics would rather support Catholic doctrine than study the Bible to understand what it really says - THAT THE BEAST IS THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH and the leader who suffers a fatal head wound is the Pope.   

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

PS the book of Daniel says the organization in question would utter blaspheme against God.  Blaspheme is the act of claiming to BE God.  Consider the words of the Vatican itself.  How clear does it have to get?

"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in heaven and earth." - Barclay Cap. XXVII, p. 218. Cities Petrus Bertrandus, Pius V. 

In 1798 the French dictator Napoleon entered the city of Rome and arrested the Pope.  The Pope died two years later in prison.  Napoleon also seized Catholic property in Rome.  Thus for many years the Catholic church continued without a head or capital city - the fatal head wound described in Revelation.  In 1929 the Italian dictator Benito Mussolini restored over a hundred acres of real estate in the city of Rome to the Catholic church and re-established the Pope as the head of the Catholic church.   The fatal head wound was healed - also according to Revelation.  The whole world marveled at this turn of events and the story was carried widely in newspapers and magazines.

History affirms the prophecies of the Bible.  Believe it or not, but if you're a post-modern Christian you probably won't believe it.

[Rella]

NOBODY, repeat nobody really cares about Biblical interpretation of Revelation - or any other book of the Bible, especially Christians.

I do. But then I can now add you to make it 9 with your comment, thank you. Wait I think you are in the 8 already....

If no one really cares about Biblical interpretation or any other book of the bible...

Case in point is the skewed interpretation presented in the leading post.   The question is asked "what is meant by she sits on many waters"?  This is not a reference to Babylon at this point in scripture. 

The Bible interprets itself, if the reader is so inclined to discover the meaning God intended to convey.

Why would one not want to interpret the meaning God intended to convey.

If God did not intend people to understand then why inspire it in the first place?

One thing certain is that God has not inspired any post 1st century man to understand anything... including you... or there would not be all the debates

Then the angel said to me, "The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages. - Revelation 17:15

In Revelation 13 a beast rises out of many waters - which according to Revelation 17 is many peoples.  This tells us two things primarily - that the beast isn't a person and that the sea is a huge number of people.  In other words, the sea beast is either an organization, religious system or nation.   Other entries in Revelation identifies the beast with religious observance.  Its not that difficult to understand, providing one doesn't have an agenda to twist scripture in the first place.

Most "teaching" about the End Times rests upon Protestant novelizations and Roman Catholic doctrine.

Can I assume you do not believe there will ever be an end? Maybe you believe, if there is to be an end, when the time runs out
it will go dark and a banner across the world will read... "And that's all there is folks".

Three good examples are denial of the LAW, the Hal Lindsay series and the Rapture doctrine.

Agreed on denial of the LAW... Just wish it was so.  What is this Hal Lindsay series? Rapture doctrine... A prime example of people interpreting the bible for themselves.

- Biblically illiterate Christians deny the Biblical principle that apart from the LAW one cannot be saved. 
     Instead they falsely assert Christ destroyed the LAW when in fact He did not.  (Matthew 5:17)  Jesus came to destroy SIN, not the LAW. 
     Consequently most churches now exist in a state of licentiousness and are proud of it.
     Which of the 10 commandments can one break and still please God?

- Lindsay is an opportunist who capitalizes on fear mongering and religious pride.  He's made a lot of money in the god business.

- The rapture doctrine has its roots in Roman Catholic attempts to subvert the protestant reformation. 

The rapture doctrine was originally introduced by Francisco Ribera in a 1590 publication that attempted to refute Martin Luther's assertions to support the Protestant Reformation.  In the mid-19th century it was reintroduced by John Nelson Darby , a known consort of witches, to gullible and intellectually shallow American protestants.  In both examples, brain dead Christians absolutely refuse to explore the history of these arguments as well as the illogic and almost total subversion of Biblical intent.  They even assert that one isn't a Christian if one refuses to accept Catholic (rapture) doctrine, Lindsay's imaginary predictions and rejection of the LAW, rather than the blood of Christ.   It isn't about the cross, boys and girls.  Its about church membership (a Catholic doctrine, btw).

I can go on and on, but what is the purpose?  Protestant fanatics would rather support Catholic doctrine than study the Bible to understand what it really says - THAT THE BEAST IS THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH and the leader who suffers a fatal head wound is the Pope.   

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

PS the book of Daniel says the organization in question would utter blaspheme against God.  Blaspheme is the act of claiming to BE God.  Consider the words of the Vatican itself.  How clear does it have to get?

"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in heaven and earth." - Barclay Cap. XXVII, p. 218. Cities Petrus Bertrandus, Pius V. 

In 1798 the French dictator Napoleon entered the city of Rome and arrested the Pope.  The Pope died two years later in prison.  Napoleon also seized Catholic property in Rome.  Thus for many years the Catholic church continued without a head or capital city - the fatal head wound described in Revelation.  In 1929 the Italian dictator Benito Mussolini restored over a hundred acres of real estate in the city of Rome to the Catholic church and re-established the Pope as the head of the Catholic church.   The fatal head wound was healed - also according to Revelation.  The whole world marveled at this turn of events and the story was carried widely in newspapers and magazines.

History affirms the prophecies of the Bible.  Believe it or not, but if you're a post-modern Christian you probably won't believe it.

Ergo: The perfect solution and the only reasonable one would be destroy all bibles. Destroy all churches and preachers. We have NO NEED to know.
And everyone live only by Mathew 6:6 

[robycop3]

  The "fatal head wound" being Napoleon's seizure of the pope ia a SDA notion, as they believe the papacy is the antichrist. (Falsely, of course!) The AC will be ONE MAN,not a series of men.

[Rella]

  The "fatal head wound" being Napoleon's seizure of the pope ia a SDA notion, as they believe the papacy is the antichrist. (Falsely, of course!) The AC will be ONE MAN,not a series of men.

I am not SDA.

I do not believe a series of men would be the anti-Christ. I do believe, without wavering doubt that when the time comes, the man sitting in that role ... the one we call Pope... will be the anti-Christ, or part of the anti-Christs inner group.

You cannot read of all that Frankie has said in recent years and doubt this is not
a man with an alternate agenda,and the promotion of Christianity is not high on his list.... from things that he has said and documented it would appear that Christianity may not really be on his list except as is necessary to keep him seated in Rome.

[Amo]

  The "fatal head wound" being Napoleon's seizure of the pope ia a SDA notion, as they believe the papacy is the antichrist. (Falsely, of course!) The AC will be ONE MAN,not a series of men.

Your knowledge of history regarding this point is seriously deficient. The papacy being identified as the system of AC, and the pope himself being AC, goes back to at least the eleventh or twelfth centuries. It has been believed by Protestants ever since. Though today most have abandoned this truth, as is necessary of course, in order for that system to be reestablished by the healing of its deadly wound. The following link provides an historical outline of Historicists views on the matter far more in touch with reality than your own narrow view.

https://historicist.info/articles/2beasts.htm

The final AC will be Satan himself.

1Jn 2:18  Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

1Jn 4:2  Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2Jn 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it. 7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. 9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

John identifies some of the traits of the spirit of AC for us. Most interestingly, he states in 1Jn 2:19 that they, not he went out from us while referring to AC, us being the true church no doubt. Therefore the AC power or spirit in this world was once attached to authentic Christianity but went out or departed from the same. The RC prides itself on being able to trace its roots back to the beginning of Christianity. Yet so very many throughout history have pointed out that her doctrines are not biblical or in line with certain basics of the gospel.

1Jn 4:2 identifies AC as denying that Jesus Christ came in the flesh, our flesh. The false Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, completely separates Christ from humanity in that neither His Father or mother were anything like the rest of us. Yet the scriptures testify that our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ was born of the seed Abraham and David according to the flesh. 2Jn 1:7 addresses this doctrine of Christ in the flesh as well. 2Jn 1:6 speaks of walking after Christs or God's commandments, while the church of Rome is the only institution which actually claims to have changed one of God's commandments, and has altered another as everyone knows to allow for praying to the saints.

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked..............................
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. 24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

Who is a liar and AC, but those who deny Jesus Christ and His Father by denying that He came in our flesh, and those who refuse to walk in the commandments of God. The church of Rome fits both of these criteria. Therefore have Protestants identified her as the system of AC for many centuries now, and her pope as an AC also.

[robycop3]

  Sportzz fanzz, it's possible a pope might be the 'beast from the earth', the miracle-working false prophet, the sidekick of the AC. But the AC himself will be ONE MAN, who won't acknowledge any god but himself. (Yes, there have been, & are many ACs, but there'll be one who will be the worst of all.)

  As I've said, there have been many ACs since Christ was here, but one will be worse than all the others put together. This will be the coming world ruler.

  The history of mens' believing the AC is the line of popes is as the long history of mens' believing the earth is flat - simply WRONG. Scripture points to ONE MAN.

  As I said earlier, the beast from the sea in Rev. 17 represents both that man & his empire. The RCC will try to control him & it, but he will turn on it. This empire will be wracked by the great trib, but will go on til Jesus returns & disposes of that empire & the men who rule it.

  The world did NOT marvel over the restoration of the papacy to Rome in 1814, & certainly didn't worship the pope(Pius VII) then. That fact alone rules out the "papacy/head wound thingie".

 

[lea]

  Sportzz fanzz, it's possible a pope might be the 'beast from the earth', the miracle-working false prophet, the sidekick of the AC. But the AC himself will be ONE MAN, who won't acknowledge any god but himself. (Yes, there have been, & are many ACs, but there'll be one who will be the worst of all.)

  As I've said, there have been many ACs since Christ was here, but one will be worse than all the others put together. This will be the coming world ruler.

  The history of mens' believing the AC is the line of popes is as the long history of mens' believing the earth is flat - simply WRONG. Scripture points to ONE MAN.

  As I said earlier, the beast from the sea in Rev. 17 represents both that man & his empire. The RCC will try to control him & it, but he will turn on it. This empire will be wracked by the great trib, but will go on til Jesus returns & disposes of that empire & the men who rule it.

  The world did NOT marvel over the restoration of the papacy to Rome in 1814, & certainly didn't worship the pope(Pius VII) then. That fact alone rules out the "papacy/head wound thingie".

 

Nunca, nada, off course.  Don't blame it on the RCC . They are pro-Christ.   

Come up with something more original please!

[Rella]

Nunca, nada, off course.  Don't blame it on the RCC . They are pro-Christ.   

Come up with something more original please!

No,nothing can be more original then your claim the AC will not be.
It is all we continually hear  from you and that is because you believe in error, that
he already was and was handled.

As for the RCC being pro-Christ.NOT Pope Frankie... He is, after all the one who said having a personal relationship with Jesus was dangerous.

Do I need to post that link, yet again.... I am sure you have read it each time I  have posted it over the past. But that should not worry you cause NO ONE can have a personal relationship with Jesus after 70AD, correct?

[lea]

No,nothing can be more original then your claim the AC will not be.
It is all we continually hear  from you and that is because you believe in error, that
he already was and was handled.

As for the RCC being pro-Christ.NOT Pope Frankie... He is, after all the one who said having a personal relationship with Jesus was dangerous.

Do I need to post that link, yet again.... I am sure you have read it each time I  have posted it over the past. But that should not worry you cause NO ONE can have a personal relationship with Jesus after 70AD, correct?

I wasn't even replying to you, but you seem to make sure your voice is on every thread here anyway.

But that should not worry you cause NO ONE can have a personal relationship with Jesus after 70AD, correct?

Is something wrong with you? Are you that ignorant to imply even that question or just trying to compete with me again?

[Rella]

I wasn't even replying to you, but you seem to make sure your voice is on every thread here anyway.
Is something wrong with you? Are you that ignorant to imply even that question or just trying to compete with me again?

You are the one who said it was completed in 70AD. You have been saying that forever. Jesus came, and went,and it was finished...

Therefore, no one can have a personal relationship with him because it is basically settled ... surly you agree with that. You have been basically suggesting all personal relationships were completed in 70AD when the end came.... And we,
well I am not sure what we are,but we who were born after 70 AD have a different role....

I have asked about this before but you have ignored.

The pope on the other hand, who is all about the future coming,and future one world order, does say it is dangerous to have a personal relationship with Jesus.

So, if it  was completed... this personal relationship with Jesus in 70AD, the pope is wrong... and should not worry you or anyone.

At least that is the way YOU sound when you go all postal in your preterism talking.

But give yourself a congratulatory pat on the back.

I am not trying  to compete with you at all. I only popped in briefly because it annoys you. I only debate those with the intelligence to be able to argue back with a reasonable amount of knowledge.

So... I am very happy and pleased to let you know that I will not reply to you again, or in any thread as you lack the ability to understand what is being said

And anyway.... Preterism is soooooooo boring 

There are so many more topics that are of interest in the Bible that can actually be proved.

[Amo]

  Sportzz fanzz, it's possible a pope might be the 'beast from the earth', the miracle-working false prophet, the sidekick of the AC. But the AC himself will be ONE MAN, who won't acknowledge any god but himself. (Yes, there have been, & are many ACs, but there'll be one who will be the worst of all.)

  As I've said, there have been many ACs since Christ was here, but one will be worse than all the others put together. This will be the coming world ruler.

  The history of mens' believing the AC is the line of popes is as the long history of mens' believing the earth is flat - simply WRONG. Scripture points to ONE MAN.

  As I said earlier, the beast from the sea in Rev. 17 represents both that man & his empire. The RCC will try to control him & it, but he will turn on it. This empire will be wracked by the great trib, but will go on til Jesus returns & disposes of that empire & the men who rule it.

  The world did NOT marvel over the restoration of the papacy to Rome in 1814, & certainly didn't worship the pope(Pius VII) then. That fact alone rules out the "papacy/head wound thingie".

Your seem to contradict yourself in your above post. Are there many AC's in the world as the Apostle John testified, or is there only one at the end. It seems quite obvious to me that both are biblical.

You are of course entitled to your own opinion concerning the papacy and a system of antichrist. Tell me, do you believe those Christinas of the past who were persecuted, imprisoned, tortured, murdered, and or burned at the stake by the papacy in the name of Christ, wrong for believing it was antichrist?
What more would an institution have to do, before you would consider it to be antichrist?

[robycop3]

Your seem to contradict yourself in your above post. Are there many AC's in the world as the Apostle John testified, or is there only one at the end. It seems quite obvious to me that both are biblical.

You are of course entitled to your own opinion concerning the papacy and a system of antichrist. Tell me, do you believe those Christinas of the past who were persecuted, imprisoned, tortured, murdered, and or burned at the stake by the papacy in the name of Christ, wrong for believing it was antichrist?
What more would an institution have to do, before you would consider it to be antichrist?

  Anyone not FOR Christ is ANTIChrist. However, there will be one man who will be the most-evil person who will ever live, who will be indwelt by Satan himself, who will rule almost all the world, being so evil that he's cast alive directly into the lake of fire without any further judgment.

  The papacy has been antichrist, but it does not, nor will it again, have the power it once had.  You, there are, & have been many antichrists, but the one mentioned by Daniel, Paul, & Revelation will be the worst of all, making all the others seem as naughty toddlers in comparison.

[Rella]

Your seem to contradict yourself in your above post. Are there many AC's in the world as the Apostle John testified, or is there only one at the end. It seems quite obvious to me that both are biblical.

You are of course entitled to your own opinion concerning the papacy and a system of antichrist. Tell me, do you believe those Christinas of the past who were persecuted, imprisoned, tortured, murdered, and or burned at the stake by the papacy in the name of Christ, wrong for believing it was antichrist?
What more would an institution have to do, before you would consider it to be antichrist?

If I may comment here, I see and understand both.

Many anti-Christs is true as there would of necessity always be a following of the Satanic demonic ways that Satan brought to earth . This is not limited to lay people who refuse the Gift God gave to us in the shed blood of Jesus.

But extends into all forms of religious workers and even clergy... and does not escape the Papacy down through the ages, by any means.

Example:
That title of anti-Christ should extend to even Mother Teresa.

https://www.christian-faith.com/did-mother-theresa-believe-in-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/

"If in coming face to face with God we accept Him in our lives, then we are converting. We become a better Hindu, a better Muslim, a better Catholic, a better whatever we are. … What God is in your mind you must accept."

She did not believe a=in Jesus as Savior. She and all Catholics are never presented with the salvation message the same as Protestants are. She believed in salvation through the sacraments of the church, and her being a Catholic.

Pope Francis also is an anti-Christ especially when he said

https://www.truthandaction.org/pope-francis-a-personal-relationship-with-jesus-is-harmful-and-dangerous/3/

"Pope Francis shared in a recent sermon in front of crowds of cheering liberal Catholics that having a “personal relationship” with Jesus was “harmful and dangerous”.

"Sometimes you may hear people say “I believe in God, in Jesus, but the church, I do not care” How many times have we heard this? This is wrong. There are those who believe you can have a personal, direct, and immediate relationship with Jesus Christ outside of the communion and mediation of the church.These temptations are dangerous and harmful. They are in the words of the great Pope Paul V “absurd dichotomies”

It is true that journeying together can be challenging and sometimes it can be tiring. It may be that some brother or sister (in the church) makes us face a problem, or scandalize us.

But the Lord entrusted his message of salvation to humans, all of us, as witnesses; and in our brothers and sisters in Christ, with their gifts and limit
**************

And so are all others who are in opposition to what we are taught in the four corners of God's Holy words.

So the system of anti-Christ is in place and has been from the moment Eve took a bite out of that dang fruit. (Man do I want to smack her)

But there will be a coming singular anti Christ. We could possibly refer to him as the head over all the little anti-Christs just as Jesus is the head over all true Christians.

Daniel calls him  in Daniel 11 :36 a king.  ( see Daniel 11: 36-39)

A singular entity. Not a system.

Could this be a POPE?  I say certainly yes.

Could this even be Pope Francis? Um... with out question when you have the head of the Roman Catholic Church
in 9-25-2015 , in New York addressing the UN

Pope to U.N. Assembly: I come “in my own name”
In his address to the United Nations General Assembly on September 25, 2015 in New York, Pope Francis chose not to mention the name of Jesus Christ.  Rather, he addressed the assembled nations “in his own name”.

Below is the opening statement of the speech of the Pope:

Following a tradition by which I feel honored, the Secretary General of the United Nations has invited the Pope to address this distinguished assembly of nations.  In my own name, and that of the entire Catholic community, I wish to express to you, Mr Ban Ki-moon, my heartfelt gratitude.

The name of Jesus was never mentioned during the entire speech.  In his subsequent addresses to the U.S. Congress, as well as in the White House, the name of Jesus still was not mentioned. Following the speech, many Catholic commentators pointed out that the Pope speaks in the name of Jesus, and should therefore explicitly invoke his name in order to direct national and world leaders to the light of Christ and His teaching.

https://veritas-vincit-international.org/2017/06/11/pope-to-u-n-assembly-i-come-in-my-own-name/

Francis dropped the title of vicar

https://jonsnewplace.wordpress.com/2020/04/04/pope-francis-drops-title-vicar-of-christ-assumes-power-as-jorge-mario-bergoglio-in-his-own-name-fulfilling-john-543-prophecy-of-antichrist/

Why? Because his is of the anti-Christ group and IMO could well rise up soon as the declared anti-Christ for he is in prime position to dictate through out the world.... He want a one world order... It is both

In any event.... Boys and Girls....

[Amo]

  Anyone not FOR Christ is ANTIChrist. However, there will be one man who will be the most-evil person who will ever live, who will be indwelt by Satan himself, who will rule almost all the world, being so evil that he's cast alive directly into the lake of fire without any further judgment.

  The papacy has been antichrist, but it does not, nor will it again, have the power it once had.  You, there are, & have been many antichrists, but the one mentioned by Daniel, Paul, & Revelation will be the worst of all, making all the others seem as naughty toddlers in comparison.

We are not that far apart concerning AC. Though I believe the devil himself will impersonate our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the end, not use a man to do so. We will have to disagree about the papacy, she already has greater influence on the global scale, than she once had over Europe in the past. Her current and future success though, will continue to be reliant upon her ability to control and manipulate from behind the stage, not on it. No one takes hits harder than the visible leaders of this confused and chaotic world. The wise lead from behind the scenes, so as not to be seriously effected by any of the many unexpected convulsions of increasing chaos, which they themselves have helped to produce according to the principles of the evil in control through chaos. Nevertheless, our Lord is always one infinite step ahead of them, even knowing the end from the beginning while allowing for complete freedom among those who have chosen another leader.

[Amo]

Just for general information. The SDA's were not the first to identify the connection between the papacy and France concerning biblical prophecy and or the deadly wound. The following addresses thoughts along those lines prior to any thought of the existents of the SDA denomination.

THE PROPHETIC FAITH OF OUR FATHERS, VOL. 4, FROOM

CHAPTER 5

BRITISH EXPOSITION REPRINTS INFLUENCE AMERICA

PGS. 112-116

2. JURIEU PREDICTS FRENCH BREAK BY 1795

The two excerpts from those earlier expositors which gave the most point and pertinency to this pamphlet were gleaned from Pierre Jurieu and Robert Fleming, Jr. The former, before 1687, wrote The Accomplishment, of the Scripture Prophecies, and the latter penned his contribution but a few years later, in 1701, on the Rise and Fall of the Papacy Pierre Jurieu was the Huguenot scholar who forecast the coming upheaval in France on the basis of the predicted “earthquake,” recorded in Revelation 11:13, when the “tenth part” of Christendom, or the Babylonian “city”—one of the ten kingdoms-would, through bloodshed, dramatically fall away from its support of the Papacy. “In my opinion, we cannot doubt that it is FRANCE,” Jurieu had said explicitly. France, which a long time ago has begun to “shake off the yoke of Rome,” will “break with Rome and the Roman religion

Now all this, be it noted, was written a century prior to the Revolution. The death and resurrection of the Two Witnesses, he says, will also take place in France. And all this, he declares, will develop shortly. After the falling away of France he expects, within a short interval following 1785, the beginning of Christ’s reign on earth, the millennium. This will come after the fall of the papal empire, the elimination of the divisions in Christendom, then the conversion of the Jews and afterward of the “remote nations,” and finally the reign of peace, humility, equality, and love.

3. FLEMING FORECASTS PAPAL HUMILIATION BY 1794

Even more specific is Robert Fleming, Jr., minister of the Scottish Presbyterian Church in Lothbury, in his 1701 work. Believing that he is living under the fourth vial, which was to be poured out upon the papal kingdom, through the humiliation of some “popish princes,” he conjectures on future fulfillments. He looks for the French monarchy to be humbled at the end of the fourth vial, about 1794—his end date for the 1260 years (from Justinian on to 1794)-when the fifth vial would be poured out, he believes, upon the “seat of the beast,” or Rome, from 1794 to 1848 (the end of the 1260 360-day “years” from 606)

It was consequently the tremendous upheaval of the French Revolution, beginning in 1789, which brought out these reprints, in England, France, Germany, and America-reprints of the numerous predictions of a “stroke” against the Papacy, to be delivered shortly before 1800. Little wonder that there was a profound stir and wide discussion of the matter on the part of thousands in the different countries of Christendom concerning the very events that now appeared obviously to be fulfilling these predictions before their very eyes. Time was waxing late. The end of the age was approaching.

II. King and Bicheno Look to French Revolution

When the French Army entered the Sistine Chapel of the Vatican, on February 15, 1798, and took Pius VI prisoner- sending him off to die in exile in France—a whole group of men began to assert that that very year, 1798, marked the end of the 1260 years.

KING ANNOUNCES CLOSE OF 1260 YEARS IN 1798

One of the first so to declare was EDWARD KING, Cambridge University graduate and attorney, whose Remarks on the Signs of the Times was thrice published in London in 1798 and 1799, with an American reprint at Philadelphia in 1800. Expressly maintaining that the long papal period had ended in 1798, and that the closing date thereby fixes its beginning as of 538, the date was thus established from which to calculate the time of this special period in the “ECCLESIASTICAL PONTIFICAL POWER” of the pope Here is King’s statement:

“And now let us see;—hear;—and understand. THIS IS THE YEAR 1798.—And just 1260 years ago, in the very beginning of the year 538, Belisarius put an end to the Empire, and Dominion of the Goths at Rome.

“He had entered the City on the 10th of the preceding December, in triumph, in the name of Justinian, Emperor of the East; and had soon after made it tributary to him: leaving thenceforward from A.D. 538, NO POWER in Rome, that could be said to rule over the earth,—excepting the ECCLESIASTICAL PONTIFICAL POWER.”

This was definitely calculated on the basis of the specifications of the prophecy. Was not the fall of the Papacy, he asks, or “Great Babylon,” to come “at the END of 1260 years” of Daniel 7:25 and 12:7, or “at the end of a time, times, and half a time? which computation amounts to the same period.” King later observes, “Surely, the End, prophetically spoken of in Holy Scripture, approacheth,” and on the next page he solemnly adds, “We approach unto the latter days!—I tremble whilst I write! ... I have not the least presumptuous idea of intending to prophecy [prophesy].—The word of Prophecy is sealed forever.” So impressive were these statements by King that four decades later they were quoted in the Boston Signs of the Times, and the readers urged to “weigh every word.” Various other works of that period made essentially the same declarations concerning the ending of the 1260 years.

2. BICHENO ENDS 1260 YEARS IN 1789

Another oft—reprinted work was by James Bicheno, dissenting minister and schoolman of London, entitled The Signs of the Times: or, The Overthrow of the Papal Tyranny in France. This was published at London in 1793. And it not only went through five editions in England by 1800 but was also reprinted in America, the first time in 1794. The popularity and the influence of such an extensively circulated book here in America can be envisioned by its unusual circulation. Bicheno took much the same position as Fleming on the prophetic numbers, only he dated the 1260 years of the power and prosperity of the papal “antichristian beast” from 529 to 1789—from the first publication of Justinian’s Code to the year when the French Revolution broke out. And he wrote while the Revolution was actually under way.

He also thought that the 2300 years extended from 481 B.C to A.D. 1819, in the nineteenth century, when the sanctuary would be cleansed, thus ending them synchronously with the 1290 years. The supplemental thirty years, completing the 1290 years, ending in 1819, would see the overthrow of the Papacy, the Turk, and other tyrannies. And the remaining 45 years, to the close of the 1335 years (in 1864), would witness the gathering and conversion of the Jews, the purification and unification of the Gentile church, the conversion of the heathen, and the appearance “of the Lord” (citing Zechariah 12:8-14; 14; Ezekiel 38, 39, and probably Revelation 20:9).

Bicheno held the standard view on the four kingdoms of Daniel 2 and 7-as Babylonia, Persia, Grecia, and Rome—followed by the division of Rome, with the Little Horn as the spiritual tyranny of the Papacy. In Revelation 12 the dragon likewise stood for pagan Rome and its despotism, while the ten-horned beast of Revelation 13 represented the spiritual tyranny of the Papacy. He thought, however, that the two-horned beast from the earth was to be identified with the kings of France. But on the great fundamentals there was essential agreement.

 

[robycop3]

We are not that far apart concerning AC. Though I believe the devil himself will impersonate our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the end, not use a man to do so. We will have to disagree about the papacy, she already has greater influence on the global scale, than she once had over Europe in the past. Her current and future success though, will continue to be reliant upon her ability to control and manipulate from behind the stage, not on it. No one takes hits harder than the visible leaders of this confused and chaotic world. The wise lead from behind the scenes, so as not to be seriously effected by any of the many unexpected convulsions of increasing chaos, which they themselves have helped to produce according to the principles of the evil in control through chaos. Nevertheless, our Lord is always one infinite step ahead of them, even knowing the end from the beginning while allowing for complete freedom among those who have chosen another leader.

  Why do I know Satan will use this man ? because the man will be cast into the LOF when Jesus returns, while Satan won't be cast into it til the Great White Throne judgment 1K years later.

[robycop3]

Just for general information. The SDA's were not the first to identify the connection between the papacy and France concerning biblical prophecy and or the deadly wound. The following addresses thoughts along those lines prior to any thought of the existents of the SDA denomination.

  The world didn't marvel & become RC when Pius VII returned to Rome in 1814. What actually happened was a further reduction in the power of the RCC. Henry VIII reduced their power in Britain, & France thru Napoleon further reduced it.
 
  Britain & Prussia kayoed nappy under Wellington, & Prussia was on the way to becoming a powerhouse. The RCC's days of dominating a large, powerful nation were over.

  Sorry, but the "French Connection" was NOT the beast's head wound from which it recovered. And remember, it's only ONE of the beast's heads which will receive the wound.

[Amo]

  Why do I know Satan will use this man ? because the man will be cast into the LOF when Jesus returns, while Satan won't be cast into it til the Great White Throne judgment 1K years later.

No one will be cast into the lake of fire until the end of the thousand years. This world is destroyed when Jesus Returns by the brightness of His coming, at which time the saved are raised to go with our Lord to heaven. The wicked are not raised until the end of the thousand years which the saved spend in heaven with Christ. Both the saved and the wicked will be raised unto salvation or damnation as our Lord has testified. The saved when Christ returns, and the wicked at the end of the thousand years when Satan is loosed to deceived them again to attack the city of the saints, when they will be cast into the lake of fire where all whose names are not written in the book of life shall go.

Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Both the saved and the wicked will be resurrected.

Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

The saved are resurrected first at Christ's second coming, that where He is, they may be also.

1Th 4:13  But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Again, the saved are raised at Christ's second coming, and so shall ever be with the lord.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The saved who were raised at Jesus coming in the first resurrection, are with Christ in heaven during the thousand years as the other scriptures I shared testified they would ever be. The rest fo the dead though, live not again until the end of the thousand years at the resurrection of damnation which our Lord spoke of in the first verse posted above. It is at the end of the thousand years that all whose names are not in the book life are cast into the lake of fire, which includes all of fallen unsaved humanity, Satan, and his angels. this would include of course the beast and false prophet who are of fallen humanity.

[Amo]

  The world didn't marvel & become RC when Pius VII returned to Rome in 1814. What actually happened was a further reduction in the power of the RCC. Henry VIII reduced their power in Britain, & France thru Napoleon further reduced it.
 
  Britain & Prussia kayoed nappy under Wellington, & Prussia was on the way to becoming a powerhouse. The RCC's days of dominating a large, powerful nation were over.

  Sorry, but the "French Connection" was NOT the beast's head wound from which it recovered. And remember, it's only ONE of the beast's heads which will receive the wound.

Your are of course entitled to your opinion, nevertheless you are wrong. Yes, the seven heads of the dragon who is Satan, are also the seven beasts or governments if you will of his counterfeit kingdoms in defiance of God. Only one of them receives a deadly wound which is healed. That one is the fifth beast of biblical prophecy, and the first new covenant beast of Revelation 13 who picks up where the old covenant beasts left off. The prior four beasts of the old covenant died as well, but their deadly wounds never healed and they never recovered as this papal new covenant beast does. Nevertheless, the seven headed dragon who is Satan, gives this beast its power and authority.

Rev 13:1  And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9 If any man have an ear, let him hear. 10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

The dragon or Satan gave this papal beast its power and authority in defiance of the living God, and it is connected to the prior beasts of biblical prophecy as mentioned in the above scriptures who derived their power from him as well. They are all the manifestation of his rebellion against God carried out through fallen humanity under his control. They are counterfeit kingdoms of the enemy of the kingdom of God, and the healing of the deadly wound of this final papal beast is the devil's counterfeit resurrection to the resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Thus Christ's own and those who worship the final beast, both worship and serve their chosen risen saviors. So be it.

When, in 1797, Pope Pius VI fell grievously ill, Napoleon gave orders that in the event of his death no successor should be elected to his office, and that the Papacy should be discontinued.

But the pope recovered; the peace was soon broken; Berthier entered Rome on the tenth of February, 1798, and proclaimed a republic.  The aged pontiff refused to violate his oath by recognizing it, and was hurried from prison to prison into France.  Broken with fatigue and sorrows, he died on the nineteenth of August, 1799, in the French fortress of Valence, aged eighty two years.  No wonder that half Europe thought Napoleon’s veto would be obeyed, and that with the Pope the Papacy was dead.--- “ The Modern Papacy,” Page I ( Catholic Truth Society, London ).

The following quotes are taken from the book, FACTS OF FAITH.

(Having now seen that the 1260 years of papal supremacy began in 538 A. D., it is an easy matter to find their close. Adding the 1260 years to 538 brings us to the year 1798. And if we have given the right application to this prophecy, history must record an event in 1798 that would appear like a death stroke to the Papacy. Turning to history we find just such an eventrecorded:

The official Swedish newspaper, Stockholms Posttidning, for March 29, 1798, has the following news item:

“Rome, the 21st of Feb. [1798], Pope Pius VI, has occupied the papal chair for all of twenty-eight years, but the 15th inst. His government in the Papal States was abolished, and five days later, guarded by one hundred French soldiers, he was taken away from his palace and his capital ....

“His... property was sold by the French, and among it were seven hundred head of cattle, one hundred fifty horses, and eight hundred cords of wood ....

“Poor Pius! He must have felt very sad as he left Rome to go into captivity. When he departed his tear-filled eyes were turned heavenward.”

Rev. E. B. Elliott, A. M., says of these events: “In the years 1796, 1797, French dominion being established by Bonaparte’s victories in Northern Italy,... the French armies [urged] their march onward to the Papal Capital ....

The aged Pope himself, now left mere nominal master of some few remaining shreds of the Patrimony of Peter, experienced soon after in person the bitterness of the prevailing anti-papal spirit ....

“On pretence of an insult to the French Ambassador there, a French corps d’armee under Berthier, having in February, 1798, crossed the Apennines from Ancona, and entered Rome, the tricolour flag was displayed from the Capitol, amidst the shouts of the populace, the Pope’s temporal reign declared at an end, and the Roman Republic proclaimed, in strict alliance fraternization with the French. Then, in the Sistine Chapel of the Vatican, the ante-hall to which has a fresco painted by Papal order commemorative of the Protestant massacre on St. Bartholomew’s day, (might not the scene have served as a memento of God’s retributive justice?) there, while seated on his throne, and receiving the gratulations of his cardinals on the anniversary of his election to the Popedom, he was arrested by the French military, the ring of his marriage with the Church Catholic torn from his finger, his palace rifled, and himself carried prisoner into France, only to die there in exile shortly after”-”Horoe Apocalyptice,” Rev. E. B. Ellfott, A. M., Vol. III, pp. 400, 401. London: 1862.

Arthur R. Pennington, M. A., F. R. Hist. Soc., says of this event:

“One day the Pope was sitting on his throne in a chapel of the Vatican, surrounded by his cardinals who had assembled for the purpose cf offering him their congratulations on his elevation to his high dignity. On a sudden, the shouts of an angry multitude penetrated to the conclave, intermingled with the strokes of axes and hammers on the doors. Very soon a band of soldiers burst into the hall, who tore away from his finger his pontifical ring, and hurried him off, a prisoner, through a hall, the walls of which were adorned with a fresco, representing the armed satellites of the Papacy, on St. Bartholomew’s day, as bathing their swords in the blood of unoffending women and helpless children. Thus it might seem as if he were to be reminded that the same God who visits the iniquities of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation, had made him the victim of His retributive justice for a deed of atrocity which had long been crying aloud to Him for vengeance”-” Epochs of the Papacy,” pp. 449, 450. London: 188I.

Rev. Joseph Rickaby, an English Jesuit, writes: “When, in 1797, Pope Plus VI fell grievously ill, Napoleon gave orders that in the event of his death no successor should be elected to his office, and that the Papacy should be discontinued.

Rev. George Trevor, Canon of York, writes of this eventful year:

“The object of the French Directory was the destruction of the pontifical government, as the irreconcilable enemy of the republic .... The aged pope was summoned to surrender the temporal government; on his refusal, he was dragged from the altar .... His rings were torn from his fingers, and finally, after declaring the temporal power abolished, the victors carried the pope prisoner into Tuscany, whence he never returned (1798).

“The Papal States, converted into the Roman Republic, were declared to be in perpetual alliance with France, but the French general was the real master of Rome .... The territorial possessions of the clergy and monks were declared national property, and their former owners cast into prison. The Papacy was extinct: not a vestige of its existence remained; and among all the Roman Catholic powers not a finger was stirred in its defence. The Eternal City had no longer prince or pontiff; its bishop was a dying captive in foreign lands; and the decree was already announced that no successor would be allowed in his place”-” Rome: From the Fall of the Western Empire,” pp. 439, 440. London: 1868.

An English secular writer, John Adolphus, says of 1798:

“The downfall of the papal government, by whatever means effected, excited perhaps less sympathy than that of any other in Europe: the errors, the oppressions, the tyranny of Rome over the whole Christian world, were remembered with bitterness; many rejoiced, through religious antipathy, in the overthrow of a church which they considered as idolatrous, though attended with the immediate triumph of infidelity; and many saw in these events the accomplishment of prophecies, and the exhibition of signs promised in the most mystical parts of the Holy Scriptures.”-”History of France from 1790-1802,” Vol. II, p. 379. London: I803. (FACTS OF FAITH by Christian Edwardson pages 49-51)

In 1798 the Pope of Rome was dethroned, his papacy and government were dissolved, and his property was sold and or declared national property of France. If this is not a deadly wound then what is? Today the papacy has regained all of this, is a literal nation state of the world, has global political influence and ambassadors from virtually every nation on earth attending to her, has a permanent observatory seat at the United Nations, and is probably the single wealthiest institution on earth which receives countless billions of dollars every year from the nations and kings or kingdoms of this earth. If you wish to turn your head and pretend these historical and present facts are not so, so be it. Do you have another suggestion regarding another power so historically directly connected to the beasts of biblical prophecy and the history of Christianity? I think not. Nevertheless, if you do, please do expound.

[robycop3]

  When the pope returned to his place, the world did not marvel & say, "Who is like the pope ? Who is able to make war with him ?"  The world didn't pay a lotta attention to that event. Most people were glad that the scourge of Napoleon was over.

  Scripture points to ONE MAN, not a successive line of men, as being the 'beast'. Daniel wrote of the prince of the people who would destroy Jerusalem. (The Romans) Paul wrote of the MAN (not "men") of sin. Rev. 13 speaks of "HE", not "they".

  The beast of Rev. 17 represents both the man & his empire. The harlot represents both the RCC & whoever the pope may be at that time. And in that prophetic vision we see the beast will turn on the harlot.

  Again, remember the beast/antichrist won't recognize any god but himself. He and his sidekick the false prophet will demand that he be worshipped. Don't know about the early popes, but none over the last thousand years has done that.

  All the eschatological events, including the coming of the great antichrist, are still future.

[RB]

Daniel wrote of the prince of the people who would destroy Jerusalem.

Sir, give me ONE SCRIPTURE that supports what you are saying~just one! Be prepared to defend it. I know ahead of time where you will be going, but you will get no support from heaven's testimony of the "Prince" saying it is a man YET TO COME.

I'm waiting for your scripture.

[Rella]

  All the eschatological events, including the coming of the great antichrist, are still future.

Look, we are going to disagree on this one simply because I am seeing something that Amo and I do agree on but you don't.

The coming of the great antichrist IS definitely still future. Future being a relative term because I do think it is near enough to say it is knocking at our very door.

But you seem to be indicating that out of nowhere someone will come to deceive the nations and the world will fall on their faces in worship to him?

I don't buy that if that is your belief.

Speaking for myself only.

To me... the great liar, and counterfeiter and would be copier of all things God most likely will be born, and grow up, and then either assume his appointed role or by possession. (Yes I do believe in possession).  He will have made a name for himself
and will be known world wide and will offer the hope to all people in his deception.

You say that you do not believe it will be through a system.... such as the RCC pontifial line through the ages.

Let me ask you this.

You agree that Jesus was born, and he grew up... right? When was he actually savior to mankind? Was it from birth, or was it at the point where Jesus began his ministry and was baptized or, was it when he went, at the HS instruction into those 40 days in the wilderness?

The AC is going to come to power in similar manner.... just like Jesus brought our salvation in His ministry .

The RCC pontifical lineage is a perfect set up for him.... But it will not be an instant thing. The ground work will be laid so the unsuspecting will be ever so subtly indoctrinated... just like we all have been to the acceptance of gays, trans, and every other abomination.  Slow and steady.

When the right person is elected as pope then poof... watch how fast things will escalate.... just like how fast our country is being degraded by 12 1/2% of the population.

In the RCC Catechism go back several decades and look at this change made within.

CCC - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 9 PARAGRAPH 3
www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p...
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." 330

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm

Then we have

The Mysterious Death Of Pope John Paul I (Most believe he was murdered)(No autopsy.... against the church)

In 1978, Pope Paul VI died. As is Vatican custom, the College of Cardinals went into the conclave and began to decide who would be the next pope. It was the largest papal conclave in history and the first since 1721 in which three future popes participated. After the fourth ballot was submitted, Cardinal Albino Luciani was elected as the next Bishop of Rome.

Despite the fact that he had repeatedly claimed he would refuse the papacy, should it be offered to him, Luciani accepted the position and assumed the name Pope John Paul I. “May God forgive you for what you have done,” he said upon his acceptance. His words would hang eerily over his papacy, as just 33 days later, the College would be holding their second conclave of the year after Pope John Paul I died suddenly and under increasingly mysterious circumstances.

On the morning of Sept. 29, 1978, Sister Vicenza entered the pope’s room to check on him, after noticing that he had yet to come out for his morning coffee. To her horror, she found him dead in his bed. She quickly summoned another sister to confirm what she’d found, a younger nun named Sister Margherita. Both nuns reported that the pope’s skin was cold and that his nails were surprisingly dark.

https://allthatsinteresting.com/pope-john-paul-i

And now we have a Pope.... Pope Francis.

Frankie has said that having a personal relationship is dangerous that the relationship must come through the church.

"Personal relationship with Jesus is dangerous outside the RCC says pope."

Video of him saying it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmjAjrlrE10

"The jesuit Pope is a key player in the plan to usher in a New World Order, determined to mislead his flock while catering to the global cabal."

Other things to read in here.
https://newspunch.com/pope-francis-jesus-dangerous/

Frankie has ..

"Pope Francis Drops Title ‘Vicar Of Christ’ Assumes Power As Jorge Mario Bergoglio In ‘His Own Name’ Fulfilling John 5:43 Prophecy Of Antichrist.

https://jonsnewplace.wordpress.com/2020/04/04/pope-francis-drops-title-vicar-of-christ-assumes-power-as-jorge-mario-bergoglio-in-his-own-name-fulfilling-john-543-prophecy-of-antichrist/

"Pope to U.N. Assembly: I come “in my own name”

https://veritas-vincit-international.org/2017/06/11/pope-to-u-n-assembly-i-come-in-my-own-name/

I am not saying it is Frankie.... But he is a Jesuit and they DO have an agenda.

And he is trying to change the course of the church rapidly. Why?

If  you are right.... great.

But if we are right and the pontifical line is the one.... keep your eyes and ears open.

[Amo]

  When the pope returned to his place, the world did not marvel & say, "Who is like the pope ? Who is able to make war with him ?"  The world didn't pay a lotta attention to that event. Most people were glad that the scourge of Napoleon was over.

  Scripture points to ONE MAN, not a successive line of men, as being the 'beast'. Daniel wrote of the prince of the people who would destroy Jerusalem. (The Romans) Paul wrote of the MAN (not "men") of sin. Rev. 13 speaks of "HE", not "they".

  The beast of Rev. 17 represents both the man & his empire. The harlot represents both the RCC & whoever the pope may be at that time. And in that prophetic vision we see the beast will turn on the harlot.

  Again, remember the beast/antichrist won't recognize any god but himself. He and his sidekick the false prophet will demand that he be worshipped. Don't know about the early popes, but none over the last thousand years has done that.

  All the eschatological events, including the coming of the great antichrist, are still future.

More general confusion. You are confusing biblical beasts of prophecy and individuals who are AC. The scriptures themselves define what prophetic beasts are.

Dan 7:16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things. 17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth. 18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever. 19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet; 20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. 21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; 22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. 23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

Prophetic beasts are kingdoms, not individuals. Old covenant beasts are associated with kings as they were the visible head of nations or kingdoms of that time. The new covenant beasts of Revelation 13 however, do not have kings. This is no doubt due to the changing nature of government since that time beginning with the Roman Empire.

Dan 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be. 20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. 21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

Likewise, the ram and goat of Dan. 8 are identified as the Medo-Persian and Grecian empires. The history addressed concerning both, and the several kings of both, makes it clear that the empires are what is being addressed, and not just individual kings.

This being the case, there would be no reason to suspect that the world would immediately notice the rise of papal power again concerning the beasts of new covenant prophecy. The healing of the beast takes place over time during the transition of one beast or kingdom to another. The first beast or kingdom receives a deadly wound which precipitates its demise. Its wound is not healed until the second beast is powerful enough to reestablish the power of its former glory. As there is quite a bit of time in the setting up and taring down of kingdoms, there has been quite a bit of time in this process. Which time involves changing the worlds mind about accepting once again, the leadership of this former beast which was firmly rejected by those it abused in the past. Wiping out history and implementing Revisionist history, creating chaos and confusion, dumbing down society in general, and political intrigue have been the methodology of those seeking to reestablish the power of this first beast ever since it was lost. These things take time. That time however is about up. Ignore what is happening right in front of your face if you wish, this will change nothing.

[robycop3]

Look, we are going to disagree on this one simply because I am seeing something that Amo and I do agree on but you don't.

The coming of the great antichrist IS definitely still future. Future being a relative term because I do think it is near enough to say it is knocking at our very door.

But you seem to be indicating that out of nowhere someone will come to deceive the nations and the world will fall on their faces in worship to him?

I don't buy that if that is your belief.

Speaking for myself only.

To me... the great liar, and counterfeiter and would be copier of all things God most likely will be born, and grow up, and then either assume his appointed role or by possession. (Yes I do believe in possession).  He will have made a name for himself
and will be known world wide and will offer the hope to all people in his deception.

You say that you do not believe it will be through a system.... such as the RCC pontifial line through the ages.

Let me ask you this.

You agree that Jesus was born, and he grew up... right? When was he actually savior to mankind? Was it from birth, or was it at the point where Jesus began his ministry and was baptized or, was it when he went, at the HS instruction into those 40 days in the wilderness?

The AC is going to come to power in similar manner.... just like Jesus brought our salvation in His ministry .

The RCC pontifical lineage is a perfect set up for him.... But it will not be an instant thing. The ground work will be laid so the unsuspecting will be ever so subtly indoctrinated... just like we all have been to the acceptance of gays, trans, and every other abomination.  Slow and steady.

When the right person is elected as pope then poof... watch how fast things will escalate.... just like how fast our country is being degraded by 12 1/2% of the population.

In the RCC Catechism go back several decades and look at this change made within.

CCC - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 9 PARAGRAPH 3
www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p...
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." 330

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm

Then we have

The Mysterious Death Of Pope John Paul I (Most believe he was murdered)(No autopsy.... against the church)

In 1978, Pope Paul VI died. As is Vatican custom, the College of Cardinals went into the conclave and began to decide who would be the next pope. It was the largest papal conclave in history and the first since 1721 in which three future popes participated. After the fourth ballot was submitted, Cardinal Albino Luciani was elected as the next Bishop of Rome.

Despite the fact that he had repeatedly claimed he would refuse the papacy, should it be offered to him, Luciani accepted the position and assumed the name Pope John Paul I. “May God forgive you for what you have done,” he said upon his acceptance. His words would hang eerily over his papacy, as just 33 days later, the College would be holding their second conclave of the year after Pope John Paul I died suddenly and under increasingly mysterious circumstances.

On the morning of Sept. 29, 1978, Sister Vicenza entered the pope’s room to check on him, after noticing that he had yet to come out for his morning coffee. To her horror, she found him dead in his bed. She quickly summoned another sister to confirm what she’d found, a younger nun named Sister Margherita. Both nuns reported that the pope’s skin was cold and that his nails were surprisingly dark.

https://allthatsinteresting.com/pope-john-paul-i

And now we have a Pope.... Pope Francis.

Frankie has said that having a personal relationship is dangerous that the relationship must come through the church.

"Personal relationship with Jesus is dangerous outside the RCC says pope."

Video of him saying it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmjAjrlrE10

"The jesuit Pope is a key player in the plan to usher in a New World Order, determined to mislead his flock while catering to the global cabal."

Other things to read in here.
https://newspunch.com/pope-francis-jesus-dangerous/

Frankie has ..

"Pope Francis Drops Title ‘Vicar Of Christ’ Assumes Power As Jorge Mario Bergoglio In ‘His Own Name’ Fulfilling John 5:43 Prophecy Of Antichrist.

https://jonsnewplace.wordpress.com/2020/04/04/pope-francis-drops-title-vicar-of-christ-assumes-power-as-jorge-mario-bergoglio-in-his-own-name-fulfilling-john-543-prophecy-of-antichrist/

"Pope to U.N. Assembly: I come “in my own name”

https://veritas-vincit-international.org/2017/06/11/pope-to-u-n-assembly-i-come-in-my-own-name/

I am not saying it is Frankie.... But he is a Jesuit and they DO have an agenda.

And he is trying to change the course of the church rapidly. Why?

If  you are right.... great.

But if we are right and the pontifical line is the one.... keep your eyes and ears open.

  Why can't the AC come from "nowhere" ? Napoleon did. Hitler did. Just 20years ago, who'd heard of Kim Il-Jong? Vlad Putin ?

  In the entertainmant world, who'd hearda Taylor Swift, Justin Bieber, or many of today's actors/actresses? How many came from celeb families ?

  Who'd heard of Jorge Mario Bergoglio, whose noe pope Francis ?

  Yes, the AC could easily come from some family not known outta its immediate circle of friends/acquaintances. Speaking of Hitler, he came from such a family. Nothing about that family showed any promise of a world figure coming from it. And Adolf himself was unknown til the 1920s.

  I doubt is any of today's celebs will be the AC. If they don't believe in God, or a god, they're too-unpopular, such as Kim Jong-Un is.

  Yes, I believe the AC will be a fresh face. People are tired of the same ole gang.

[robycop3]

More general confusion. You are confusing biblical beasts of prophecy and individuals who are AC. The scriptures themselves define what prophetic beasts are.

Not at all.

Dan 7:16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things. 17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth. 18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever. 19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet; 20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. 21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; 22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. 23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

Prophetic beasts are kingdoms, not individuals. Old covenant beasts are associated with kings as they were the visible head of nations or kingdoms of that time. The new covenant beasts of Revelation 13 however, do not have kings. This is no doubt due to the changing nature of government since that time beginning with the Roman Empire.

    Scripture says differently-Rev. 17:12 “The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. 13 These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast.[/quote]
 Plus, read Daniel 7:24.

Dan 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be. 20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. 21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

Likewise, the ram and goat of Dan. 8 are identified as the Medo-Persian and Grecian empires. The history addressed concerning both, and the several kings of both, makes it clear that the empires are what is being addressed, and not just individual kings.

This being the case, there would be no reason to suspect that the world would immediately notice the rise of papal power again concerning the beasts of new covenant prophecy. The healing of the beast takes place over time during the transition of one beast or kingdom to another. The first beast or kingdom receives a deadly wound which precipitates its demise. Its wound is not healed until the second beast is powerful enough to reestablish the power of its former glory. As there is quite a bit of time in the setting up and taring down of kingdoms, there has been quite a bit of time in this process. Which time involves changing the worlds mind about accepting once again, the leadership of this former beast which was firmly rejected by those it abused in the past. Wiping out history and implementing Revisionist history, creating chaos and confusion, dumbing down society in general, and political intrigue have been the methodology of those seeking to reestablish the power of this first beast ever since it was lost. These things take time. That time however is about up. Ignore what is happening right in front of your face if you wish, this will change nothing.

  Again, the antichrist will be ONE MAN, as Scripture indicates. and it won't be a pope. no pope is popular enough to be loved by the world, & the AC won't acknowkedge any god but himself. How many RCs would follow a pope who doesn't acknowledge God?

  The beast of rev. 17 represents both the AC & his empire. Initially, 10 nations will unite under him, with their rulers being his vassals. However, he will have to overthrow three of them. They, and the AC, will rule for one prophetic hour, however long that is. (On the year-for-a-day principle, that'll be about 15 days, but I don't know if that's the case here.)  This man will be the same one mentioned in Rev. 13, & mentioned by Daniel & Paul.

  We have to put all the eschatological Scriptures together to realize the AC will be one man. But you must realize the RCC will never have the power it once had. While it remains the world's largest qseudo/quasi-Christian cult,  it's nowhere, & never will be, what it used to be when rulers of nations answered to the pope.

[Rella]

  Why can't the AC come from "nowhere" ? Napoleon did. Hitler did. Just 20years ago, who'd heard of Kim Il-Jong? Vlad Putin ?

  In the entertainmant world, who'd hearda Taylor Swift, Justin Bieber, or many of today's actors/actresses? How many came from celeb families ?

  Who'd heard of Jorge Mario Bergoglio, whose noe pope Francis ?

  Yes, the AC could easily come from some family not known outta its immediate circle of friends/acquaintances. Speaking of Hitler, he came from such a family. Nothing about that family showed any promise of a world figure coming from it. And Adolf himself was unknown til the 1920s.

  I doubt is any of today's celebs will be the AC. If they don't believe in God, or a god, they're too-unpopular, such as Kim Jong-Un is.

  Yes, I believe the AC will be a fresh face. People are tired of the same ole gang.

Do you think the AC will be an instant hit?

Be careful of how you answer that because this is religion we are talking about,
not a Grammy winning singer or an academy award actor who many will idolize until the new fresh face hits the screen.

But let me ask you this.

Pope Frankie got elected.

Certainly those voting for him and others within the hierarchy of the church knew of him... but the common parishioner did not.

He was a fresh new face who seemingly came from nowhere. And endearing to everyone when he insisted he pay his hotel bill himself after being elected.

I just do not see why you feel it willnot be or should not be from the Vatican.

What perfect way to slap God in the face but to apostatize the very church who had named Peter as their first Pope.

  According to Catholic tradition he received the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven (Matthew 16:18–19). Feast day (Feast of Saints Peter and Paul) 29 June, (Chair of Saint Peter) 22 February. He is recognized by the Catholic Church as the first Bishop of Rome appointed by Christ.

Would that not be the perfect end to what Satan surly sees as a church whose first head was appointed by Christ?

And would not putting a few men in that role and working through them to start the downward trend from the values we all hold on high as Christians?

I am not declaring Pope Francis is the one. But he certainly is in line of dragging the church down and away from God ever so subtly,and the people accept and applaud.

[robycop3]

  I look for a pope to be the "beast from the earth", the AC's sidekick, a miracle-working false prophet, who can do such things as supernaturally cause his boss' statue to speak, or call forth lightning. (only while in his boss' presence)

  I could be wrong there, of course. But it appears the RCC will have a hand in boosting the AC to power, similar to how it helped Hitler. And the AC will turn on the RCC, as Hitler did, only it'll be more -worldwide than Hitler's attack on it was.