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Offline rezar

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Revelation's symbolic language
« on: Sun Jan 17, 2010 - 20:49:06 »
John's view of the Great Tribulation from apocalyptic language.

Tyrone

Sun, 30 Aug 2009 11:01:00 +0000
Before we start the last study on the great tribulation let me say please do not let anyone ever tell you that any scri pture in the Bible has nothing to do with salvation. All of the Bible is about God’s plan of salvation form the book of Genesis to Revelation.

People have had the desire to understand the book of Revelation but many have often given up due to the highly apocalyptic language within the book. "The book of Revelation is apocalyptic; therefore, I can never understand it." Well the truth is God never meant for the book of Revelation to be a great mystery to Christians.

The first thing one must understand about the book of Revelation is that it is a book composed almost entirely of symbols ..... symbols that a first century Jew would have found immediately recognizable. These symbols were used before in such books as Deuteronomy, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Jeremiah, Hosea, and Zechariah. They are closely associated with the book of Revelation.

For example in the Tabernacle the only light in the Holy Place would have come from the golden lampstands. We find the details for the lampstands listed in Exodus 25. And we find the symbolic use both in Zechariah 4 and Revelation 1. In the case of Revelation reference Christ is the source of the light. Zechariah used the lampstands in a similar manner, as Jehovah God is the light source.

So John would naturally borrow from their Old Testament Jewish imagery and symbols. Many of the events recorded in the Old Testament were strikingly filmier whether in reality or symbolically to the Jewish Christians of that day. Bringing those events to memory would serve to drive home the messages in Revelation.

These symbols were not selected as (fill in) by the Holy Spirit when He inspired the book, and they do not stand for just anything we may desire in our future. These symbols were not strange to John's original audience to whom the book was written. These symbols were generally understood that Revelation drew on spiritual truths and historical realities. Symbols were like flags being raised that great tribulation was coming. While those being warned would not heed it. Believers, understood these symbols as signs of victory.

John’s writing in Revelation 17:1-18 is quite unique as he takes a series of pictures that when put together become a full-motion picture. John is like the photographer who, in capturing a scene, takes pictures from many different angles, that can be seen throughout the book. John will take a series of pictures and then he will move around to a different point of observation. Here John tell the same story of the great tribulation but in apocalyptic language.

We begin with John’s snap shot of (Revelation 17:1-2) Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me, "Come, I will show you (the judgment) of the (great harlot) who sits on many waters, with whom the kings of the earth (committed fornication), and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication." (emphasis added)

The women here is pictured and introduced as a prostitute women. This arrangement with Roman can be seen beginning with the crucifixion of Christ. The Romans had no desire to kill Jesus. It was the wicked Jews who shouted ‘Crucify him! Crucify Let his blood be on us and our children (Matthews 27:22-25). And it was the wicked Jews who said. "If you let this Man go, you are not Caesar's friend. Whoever makes himself a king speaks against Caesar." (John 19:12)

Spiritual fornication or harlotry in scri pture indicates the breaking of God’s covenant, or a departure from his ways (Ezekiel 16: 6-22). The LORD said also to me in the days of Josiah the king: "Have you seen what backsliding Israel has done? She has gone up on every high mountain and under every green tree, and there played the harlot. (Jeremiah 3:6) The nation of Israel had been in covenant relationship with God for 15.000 years, and had been referred to as a women married to the Lord, had sworn faith and love in all things to her rightful husband; but as was so often the case in Old Testament apostasies, even so now in the day of her redemption and visitation, she has shamefully forsaken and rejected him in whoring after strangers. (Jeremiah 3:20 concerning Jerusalem) Surely, as a wife treacherously departs from her husband, So have you dealt treacherously with Me, O house of Israel.’ says the Lord.

What is meant by she sits on many waters or lives by many waters’? This terminology is used in (Jeremiah 51:13) concerning the ancient city of Babylon were it was first applied.. There it denoted the vast expanse of influence she had in both civil and political realms. "waters" in Revelation often signifies "people" or nations instead of "H2O." (Dwelling upon many waters) denoted the broad expanse of the Babylon kingdom in the exercise of its political and civil power. Babylon was the civil king of that day. Jerusalem was to the world religiously what Babylon was politically.

John new move around to a different point of observation. So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a (woman sitting on a scarlet beast) which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. (Revelation 17:3) Here the harlot women is riding or sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

An interpretive angel appears for the express purpose of explaining the vision: "But the angel said to me, "Why did you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns." (Rev 17:7). Then in verses 9 and 10 this angel explains the vision: "Here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitting. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space."

Most evangelical scholars recognize that the seven mountains represent the famed seven hills of Rome. The recipients of Revelation lived under the rule of Rome, which was universally distinguished by its seven hills would have immediately recognizable this symbol. How could the recipients, living in the seven historical churches of Asia Minor and under Roman imperial rule, understand anything else but this geographical picture of John?

But there is an additional information involved. The seven heads have a two-fold referent. We learn also that the seven heads represent a political situation in which five kings have fallen, the sixth is, and the seventh is yet to come and will remain but a short while. It is surely no accident that Nero was the sixth emperor of Rome, who reigned after the deaths of his five predecessors and before the brief rule of the seventh emperor.

Flavius Josephus, the Jewish contemporary of John, clearly points out that Julius Caesar was the first emperor of Rome and that he was followed in succession by Augustus, Tiberius, Caius, Claudius, and Nero (Antiquities 18; 19). We discover this enumeration also in other near contemporaries of John: 4 Ezra 11 and 12; Sibylline Oracles, books 5 and 8; Barnabas, Epistle 4; Suetonius, Lives of the Twelve Caesars; and Dio Cassius’ Roman History 5.

The text of Revelation says of the seven kings "five have fallen." The first five emperors are dead, when John writes. But the verse goes on to say "one is." That is, the sixth one is then reigning even as John wrote. That would be Nero Caesar, who assumed imperial power upon the death of Claudius in October, A.D. 54, and remained emperor until June, A.D. 68.

John continues: "The other is not yet come; and when he comes, he must continue a short space." When the Roman Civil Wars broke out in rebellion against him, Nero committed suicide on June 8, A.D. 68. The seventh king was "not yet come." That would be Galba, who assumed power in June, A.D. 68. But he was only to continue a "short space." His reign lasted but six months, until January 15, A.D. 69. Thus, we see that while John wrote, Nero was still alive and Galba was looming in the near future. Revelation could not have been written after June, A.D. 68, according to the internal political evidence. In this vision we discover strong evidence that Revelation was written before the death of Nero, which occurred on June 8, A.D. 68.

The woman/whore represents apostate Jerusalem and sitting on the beast means she has the political power she controls the beast. A beast is a symbol used to depict a political state, such as the lion, bear, and leopard of Daniel 7, representing the kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persian and Greece respectively.

The ten horns of the beast (17:12-17) are defined as ten kings or provincial governors who aided in the war against the Lamb Christ. verse 14. Farrar lists ten major provinces that constituted the Roman Empire in the days of Nero–namely: Italy, Achaia, Asia, Syria, Egypt, Africa, Spain, Gaul, Britain and Germany. They united with Nero in the matter of war against the Lamb, and of Christian persecution.

The interpretive angel further explains the identify the harlot woman in his vision: The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication. (Revelation 17:4) The garment of this women is the exact garment of the high priest of Israel, according to the Bible, contained specific colors:

"Now take Aaron your brother, and his sons with him, from among the children of Israel, that he may minister to Me as priest, Aaron and Aaron's sons: Nadab, Abihu, Eleazar, and Ithamar. And you shall make holy garments for Aaron your brother, for glory and for beauty. So you shall speak to all who are gifted artisans, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom, that they may make Aaron's garments, to consecrate him, that he may minister to Me as priest. And these are the garments which they shall make: a breastplate, an ephod, a robe, a skillfully woven tunic, a turban, and a sash. So they shall make holy garments for Aaron your brother and his sons, that he may minister to Me as priest. "They shall take the gold, blue, purple, and scarlet thread, and the fine linen, and they shall make the ephod of gold, blue, purple, and scarlet thread, and fine woven linen, artistically worked. It shall have two shoulder straps joined at its two edges, and so it shall be joined together. And the intricately woven band of the ephod, which is on it, shall be of the same workmanship, made of gold, blue, purple, and scarlet thread, and fine woven linen. "Then you shall take two onyx stones and engrave on them the names of the sons of Israel: (Exodus 28:1-9)

The garments of the high priest include gold, purple, scarlet, and blue. This de scri ption is of the woman of (Revelation 17:4)

John now move around to a different point of observation and takes another picture that makes the harlot woman becomes ever clearer. And on her forehead a name was written: MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement. (Revelation 17:5-6)

cont'd...........

Bikelite

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #1 on: Sun Jan 17, 2010 - 20:53:29 »
The women represents apostate Jerusalem....... I dont think so....... more MAN words.... not biblical!

Offline rezar

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #2 on: Sun Jan 17, 2010 - 20:54:02 »
  
In Matthew 23:32 Jesus said the Jews were about to fill the cup of their sin by continuing to persecute those sent to her; in Revelation 17 Babylon has filled her cup by persecuting not only the prophets of old but the followers of Jesus as well, 17:6. In Matthew 23:35 Jesus said Jerusalem was guilty of "all the blood shed on the earth," 23:35; in Revelation 18:24 Babylon bears the guilt for "all the blood shed on the earth." In Matthew 23:36 Jesus said judgment on Jerusalem for killing the prophets would come in his generation. In Acts Stephen said to the Jews. "You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers, (Acts 7:51-52) Such parallels are not accidental!

More importantly, as just seen, Jesus defined Jerusalem as the persecuting city drunken with the blood of the saints. In Matthew 23:31-39 and Luke 11:47-51 Jesus said it was Jerusalem that had slain the prophets through the ages. To mistakenly identify Babylon is to incorrectly interpret these issues. Babylon or Jerusalem is at the heart and center of all antichristian power.

She sought to destroy the spiritual seed of the new covenant, as represented by Isaac an Sarah (Galatians 4:21-31) Therefore, the power that was most threatening to spiritual Israel was natural body of Judaism. How could the Jewish recipients, living under this historical event understand anything else but its symbolic feature?

John now moves to another place of observation. "And the ten horns which you saw on the beast. these (will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, ear her flesh and burn her with fire). "For God has (put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose), to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the works of God are fulfilled. (Revelation 17:16-17 emphasis added)

The alliance between Jerusalem and Rome against the Church had been temporarily successful. Rome was following and carrying out Jerusalem’s desires for the killing and persecution of the Christians. Now God would put into the heart of Rome to turn on the harlot Jerusalem.

This was accomplished when the Jews foolishly believed the time has come for them to throw off the Roman yoke, and thereby become the established kingdom of her prophecies which proved to be her complete destruction. Because of their lawlessness they refused to believe the promise kingdom was not of that world. (John 18:36) Rome did not initiate the war against Jerusalem. Jerusalem was already under the authority and control of Rome. Nero picked Titus Flavius Vespasian to put Israel back under Roman tribute and control.

Headstrong man in Jerusalem itself, kept irritating the people and inciting them to rebel against Rome. The people quit paying their taxes. This would have been sufficient in itself to cause Rome to turn against Jerusalem. The Jews sought an earthly throne in literal Jerusalem. They thought the world to come would consist of a literal fulfillment of their Messianic prophecies. She wanted her types and shadows to be fulfilled in a literalistic or nationalistic manner being blinded by the earthly or carnal system of Moses. But their continued hope of a national restoration failed them. Rome’s devastating invasion of Palestine was putting in the heart of Rome to turn on the harlot Jerusalem.

God was now rendering on Jerusalem what they did the saints. (Revelation 18:4-7) The expression "Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. This is similar language concerning Jesus’ first warning to the saints in (Matthew 24:16-20) Had they not left Jerusalem they two would have been caught in the judgement.

John now begins to take pictures leading up to the final shot. In Revelation 18:7 we read. In the measure that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, in the same measure give her torment and sorrow; for she says in her heart, 'I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow.'

Her long history of religious supremacy and distinctive favor with God had cultivated within her a spirit like unto the rich men who fared sumptuously. (Luke 16:19) It also cultivated within her a spirit of denial. (am no widow, and will not see sorrow).

In Revelation 18:11-19 we read; And the merchants of the earth weep and mourn over her, because no one buys their cargoes any more cargoes of gold and silver and precious stones and pearls and fine linen and purple and silk and scarlet, and every kind of citron wood and every article of ivory and every article made from very costly wood and bronze and iron and marble, and cinnamon and spice and incense and perfume and frankincense and wine and olive oil and fine flour and wheat and cattle and sheep, and cargoes of horses and chariots and slaves and human lives.

The fruit you long for has gone from you, and all things that were luxurious and splendid have passed away from you and men will no longer find them. The merchants of these things, who became rich from her, will stand at a distance because of the fear of her torment, weeping and mourning, saying, Woe, woe, the great city, she who was clothed in fine linen and purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls; for in one hour such great wealth has been laid waste! And every shipmaster and every passenger and sailor, and as many as make their living by the sea, stood at a distance, and were crying out as they saw the smoke of her burning, saying,

What city is like the great city? And they threw dust on their heads and were crying out, weeping and mourning, saying, Woe, woe, the great city, in which all who had ships at sea became rich by her wealth, for in one hour she has been laid waste!"

The Old City of Jerusalem was originally built by King David in 1004 B.C.E. and has always been considered the center of the world. Everything revolved around it. Jerusalem was the navel of the world and the meeting place. There were fisherman, ship builders, woodworkers, trades in metals, pottery and crafts etc. There was a merchant class ready to buy and sell anything near or far, and money lenders who lived off of interest payments. The system was air tight, until the Messiah greatly upset Jerusalem city life. He cleansed the Temple money changers twice - directly challenging the High Priests (John 2:13; Mat. 21:12) "The merchants of the earth ... became rich because of Jerusalem."

This even had been long prophesied about by God. Moreover I will make you a waste and a reproach among the nations that are all around you, (in the sight of all who pass by). ‘So it shall be a reproach, a taunt, a lesson, and an astonishment to the nations that are all around you, when I execute judgments among you in anger and in fury and in furious rebukes. I, the LORD, have spoken. When I send against them the terrible arrows of famine which shall be for destruction, which I will send to destroy you, I will increase the famine upon you and cut off your supply of bread. So I will send against you famine and wild beasts, and they will bereave you. Pestilence and blood shall pass through you, and I will bring the sword against you. I, the LORD, have spoken.’" (Ezekiel 5:14-17 emphasis added) Please read all the chapter.

John now moves around with his camera at takes the final shot. "Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you (holy apostles and prophets, for God has avenged you on her)!" Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, "Thus with violence the great city Babylon shall be thrown down, and shall not be found anymore. The sound of harpists, musicians, flutists, and trumpeters shall not be heard in you anymore. No craftsman of any craft shall be found in you anymore, and the sound of a millstone shall not be heard in you anymore. (Revelation 18:20-21 emphasis added)

God had now avenged on Jerusalem for the killing of the apostles and prophets (Matthew 23:36) The Pharisees were the true authorities for interpreting the laws of God. The Pharisees and teachers of the law would not admit it, but their underlying position was that God’s law was not enough. They introduced hundreds of detailed rules and regulations They were giving extra rules and laws to expand what Moses had given.

Their problem was that they did not even keep the law that God has already given through Moses his prophet, and he did not need anyone to add to it. Jesus attacked the Pharisees and Teachers, calling them hypocrites and impostors (Matthew 23:23). With all the hundreds of detailed rules and regulation added to the law, it became a millstone, around the neck of God’s people.

The Temple along with the system of the laws of Moses came immediately under attack and fell on August 10, 70AD. The upper city fell on September 7, 70AD and the capture of Jerusalem was over. That millstone was threw it into the sea, and shall not be found anymore.

Titus ordered Jerusalem be completely leveled and work began. However, he allowed part of the walls to remain in their place. All the stones were thrown down at that time. Eleazar, commander of the Temple along with many Jewish men, women, and children escaped from Jerusalem fled to Massada, a fortress in the wilderness built by Herod. Fighting dragged on for three more years after Jerusalem fell and ended when Massada was captured in 73AD.

Despite the alliance between Jerusalem and Rome and the vigorous and universal persecution of the Church, Nero and the Jews failed to purge the world of Christian power and influence. The faith and sacrifice of the saints proved to be stronger than the fiery trials and persecutions. Their earthly forces were no match for the spiritual power of Christ’s gospel. Thus, Nero failed to serve Israel’s purpose.

God was not simply doing away with a national system and people; he was also receiving and bringing to perfection a spiritual nation. Unlike national Judaism, spiritual Israel cannot be entered, possessed, or ruled by earthy kinds. The spiritual rule and dominion of Christ is not vulnerable to the military might and ingenuity of civil governments. Nations shall rise and fall, but spiritual nation of Israel shall abide forever. Unlike national Judaism, spiritual Israel has the faith of (Galatians 3:29).

Bikelite

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #3 on: Sun Jan 17, 2010 - 20:58:28 »
God in the bible always called Jerusalem the APPLE of his eye my friend to say aposate Jerusalem .... is well I will get strong and say your tongue is from Lucifer.... where did God ever call Jerusalem a whore? ..... but he called it the apple.....

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #3 on: Sun Jan 17, 2010 - 20:58:28 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Bikelite

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #4 on: Sun Jan 17, 2010 - 21:16:38 »
This almost makes me sick that Christians can think this way. context all out of wack... but they want and like to think this way sick! Why read antisemitism and hatred twardes God Jehovah  on the news when you can get it from Christians.
« Last Edit: Sun Jan 17, 2010 - 21:54:00 by Bikelite »

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #4 on: Sun Jan 17, 2010 - 21:16:38 »



Offline rezar

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #5 on: Mon Jan 18, 2010 - 09:49:07 »
God in the bible always called Jerusalem the APPLE of his eye my friend to say aposate Jerusalem .... is well I will get strong and say your tongue is from Lucifer.... where did God ever call Jerusalem a wh*re? ..... but he called it the apple.....

Ah, don't get too sick, Bikelite, it isn't worth it .  The end result IS GOOD NEWS!

 APOSTASY : Hebrews reflects Jews apostatizing and returning to Judaism (Heb 2:1-3, 3:6 and 14, 6:4-6, 10:26-27). Cf. Gal 5:4; 1 Jn 2:18-20, and 4:3, but especially 2:24, all of which report apostasy during the time of the apostles. Also 1 Tim 4:1, 2 Pet 2:1-2 and 20-21.


And Israel was called the harlot several times before by God.
Isa.1:21, 21 How the faithful city has become a harlot!
      It was full of justice;
      Righteousness lodged in it,
      But now murderers.


You confuse the true Israel of God which is Christ, with national Israel of the circumcision.

National fleshly ISRAEL or ZION was plowed like a field & Jerusalem (spiritual city) was raised up. God would not put up with the Jews who were no longer "holy" the people were destroyed & only the "holy" Zion remains before God always.
God divorced national Israel & was to "remarry" her in a spiritual way through the Messiah in the 1st century AD.

Only the remnant (Apostles & the 144k) which were assigned salvation bc of faith became part of the New Covenant of no distinctions of Jew/Gentile, male/female in Christ.

All that mattered was circumcision of the heart.

But as a whole, Israel rejected her Messiah & the kingdom of God/heaven was given to nation who bore good fruit & whose names are in the Lamb's book of life.(Christians in the New Jerusalem)



Tantor

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #6 on: Mon Jan 18, 2010 - 09:59:57 »
This almost makes me sick that Christians can think this way. context all out of wack... but they want and like to think this way sick! Why read antisemitism and hatred twardes God Jehovah  on the news when you can get it from Christians.

I think you are confusing ambivalents with anti-semitism.  I could care less about Israel as a nation, but I do care that they are evangelised as much as possible.  I pray that Israel will be dominated by Chrisitians.

Unfortunately, most people like you could care less about their souls, all they care is that their bizarre end-times eschatology is fulfilled... while the Jews go to hell.



Bikelite

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #7 on: Mon Jan 18, 2010 - 16:13:42 »
Tantor... I could care less about Israel as a nation..... do I have to say more? Does T know that Christ was a Jew ... In a way as close as God Jesus can come.to man.

Bikelite

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #8 on: Mon Jan 18, 2010 - 16:27:04 »
In the bible was there not a Lineage Christ will come into the world ? if Im wrong please help me. Its the same sick theology that prevails in some christians
« Last Edit: Mon Jan 18, 2010 - 17:05:45 by Bikelite »

Offline rezar

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #9 on: Mon Jan 18, 2010 - 17:36:52 »
In the bible was there not a Lineage Christ will come into the world ? if Im wrong please help me. Its the same sick theology that prevails in some christians
It goes something like this Bikelite- 

 Galatians 4:21-31 (New King James Version)

Two Covenants
   
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the[a] two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written:


      “ Rejoice, O barren,
      You who do not bear!
      Break forth and shout,
      You who are not in labor!
      For the desolate has many more children
      Than she who has a husband.

Tantor

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #10 on: Mon Jan 18, 2010 - 18:03:51 »
Tantor... I could care less about Israel as a nation..... do I have to say more? Does T know that Christ was a Jew ... In a way as close as God Jesus can come.to man.

Yes, God proved that even the most stiff necked and unfaithful race on the entire planet could be redeemed by the person of Jesus.

Really, when you read the Old Testament and see the things the nation of Israel did.. and later on the Jews.. they were the most short minded 'what have you done lately' group of people I have ever read about.  Which is why I believe that God chose them..

Bikelite

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #11 on: Mon Jan 18, 2010 - 18:04:18 »
R... you just do not get it ..... some day I hope . but time is short .

Tantor

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #12 on: Mon Jan 18, 2010 - 18:05:58 »
I get it... and the time is not short at all.  We all have the rest of our natural lives.

Bikelite

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #13 on: Mon Jan 18, 2010 - 18:08:32 »
Good for you T. I wouldnt X less.

Offline rezar

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #14 on: Mon Jan 18, 2010 - 20:59:28 »
R... you just do not get it ..... some day I hope . but time is short .


Get what? Like the craziness on the Obadiah thread?!  Someday you may get with reality. The time is not short.
It was short in John's day but not today.

 But God judges evil from good 24/7 anyway. In case you haven't noticed. ::playingguitar::

                                                         

Offline lea

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #15 on: Tue Apr 28, 2020 - 17:43:51 »
Get what? Like the craziness on the Obadiah thread?!  Someday you may get with reality. The time is not short.
It was short in John's day but not today.

 But God judges evil from good 24/7 anyway. In case you haven't noticed. ::playingguitar::

                                                         


Rezar, you are my friend in Preterism.  I don't quite agree on Rev.17 and the 10 kings anymore but the other 99% I'm a true believer in too!

Offline DanielConway

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #16 on: Sun May 03, 2020 - 11:20:24 »
There are several elements of your analysis that I find highly questionable, but for now I will focus on these.  You write, correctly, that Revelation was written in  language that was intended to be understood by its audience.  You are correct.  Revelation was an apocalypse.  There were several of these floating around in John's day.  They all were code for Israel's deliverance from the Roman Empire, not Jewish deliverance from an apostate Temple leadership.  In fact the most highly objectionable point of your analysis of all is the identification of the Great City as ancient Jerusalem.  Revelation states that the great city is the city that sits on seven hills, the closest thing to an overt reference to ancient Rome that John dares make.  I have read intellectually tortured descriptions of the geography around Jerusalem that identify seven hills in it's proximity, but they are just that, intellectually tortured.  Jerusalem was never known as the city that sits on seven hills.  I have not rehashed the historical arguments for an AD 94 dating of Revelation because I am sure you are familiar with them and have found ways around them.  However, I urge you to at least consider the possibility that Revelation was a prophetic metaphor for the conflict between the early church and the Roman Empire that lasted until about the fall of Rome in AD 410.

Offline robycop3

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #17 on: Sun May 03, 2020 - 13:13:27 »
  Much of Rev is literal, & its symbolism always represents a literal thing. I believe God showed John symbolic things, both for brevity, & the fact John wouldn'te understood the actual literal things, such as modern weapons, microchips, etc. but God made the symbolism so that WE could know what it means. No one should have any trouble knowing what the woman pursued by the dragon means, either the woman, dragon, or her child. And we easily see the beast from the sea is both a man & his empire. And it doesn't take rocket science to see those things have not yet happened !

Offline RB

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #18 on: Sun May 03, 2020 - 15:09:13 »
Rezar, you are my friend in Preterism.  I don't quite agree on Rev.17 and the 10 kings anymore but the other 99% I'm a true believer in too!
"Why" dig up a post ten years old, there's no profit in doing so. Start a new one.
Quote
Re: Revelation's symbolic language
All of the word of God should be read literally and if the literal makes no sense, then we should seek out the true biblically sense, using ONLY the word of God to interpret the same. Using history to interpret the scriptures is using using extra-biblical sources that leave the holy scriptures "open game" for men to force their own understanding on the scriptures and must be rejected by the faithful who seeks their understanding from the holy scriptures ALONE.
Quote from:  robycop3 on: Today at 13:13:27
Much of Rev is literal,
You would have a hard time proving that for sure. Revelation is to be interpreted spiritually by using ONLY the holy scriptures for truth is hidden therein and NOT outside of them.
Quote from: robycop3 on: Today at 13:13:27
its symbolism always represents a literal thing.
Well, of course, it does, yet still we must spiritually interpret them by using God's written word. Literalism and ONLY using that system get a person into serious position that they cannot defend.

Preterism is a lie and by the time these folk gets through with the scriptures, they have taken the scriptures totally out of our hands of the faithful and stamp them FULLFILLED 70. A.D.!
Quote from:  DanielConway on: Today at 11:20:24
You write, correctly, that Revelation was written in  language that was intended to be understood by its audience.
By the faithful saints, MAINLY latter-day saints during the great tribulation that started around the late 1700's up to where we are now living.

I have said little but truly this needs another thread.

Offline robycop3

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #19 on: Sun May 03, 2020 - 16:10:25 »
  Well, actually, the great trib won't start til the beast/antichrist is in power, & the rapture has occurred.

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #20 on: Tue May 05, 2020 - 14:31:55 »
Well, actually, the great trib won't start til the beast/antichrist is in power, & the rapture has occurred.
Really? Then I have ONE QUESTION for you to answer and it is this: "Which comes FIRST, Christ's coming to gather together the church unto him, or antichrist?" Be careful before you open your lips, you just might be put to shame.

I'll wait for your answer. PLEASE provide scriptures ONLY for your answer. Bible questions demand bible proofs in order to be biblically and from the very mouth of God Himself.  Be careful I have a loaded question or else I would have never asked it.

Offline lea

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #21 on: Thu May 07, 2020 - 20:24:57 »
"Why" dig up a post ten years old, there's no profit in doing so. Start a new one. All of the word of God should be read literally and if the literal makes no sense, then we should seek out the true biblically sense, using ONLY the word of God to interpret the same. Using history to interpret the scriptures is using using extra-biblical sources that leave the holy scriptures "open game" for men to force their own understanding on the scriptures and must be rejected by the faithful who seeks their understanding from the holy scriptures ALONE. You would have a hard time proving that for sure. Revelation is to be interpreted spiritually by using ONLY the holy scriptures for truth is hidden therein and NOT outside of them. Well, of course, it does, yet still we must spiritually interpret them by using God's written word. Literalism and ONLY using that system get a person into serious position that they cannot defend.

Preterism is a lie and by the time these folk gets through with the scriptures, they have taken the scriptures totally out of our hands of the faithful and stamp them FULLFILLED 70. A.D.!By the faithful saints, MAINLY latter-day saints during the great tribulation that started around the late 1700's up to where we are now living.

I have said little but truly this needs another thread.


I don't know. Are you Red Baker from 10 years ago?



Offline lea

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #22 on: Thu May 07, 2020 - 20:32:21 »
Just look at how much manner was given to rezar when we had a handful of full preterists here.

Now there is only a troll sounding like a gong who knows nada about prophecy interpretation.

If you want to debate me about something in eschatology RB, let's do it!

I put the past behind me but I'm still jazzed to show you who's on the money.

 Thank you Lord!



.

Offline RB

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #23 on: Fri May 08, 2020 - 05:40:19 »
I don't know. Are you Red Baker from 10 years ago?
Yes, I'am he. Computer failure made me change my name.... sorta.

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #24 on: Fri May 08, 2020 - 05:45:28 »
Just look at how much manner was given to rezar when we had a handful of full preterists here.

Now there is only a troll sounding like a gong who knows nada about prophecy interpretation.

If you want to debate me about something in eschatology RB, let's do it!

I put the past behind me but I'm still jazzed to show you who's on the money.

 Thank you Lord!
One little word for you:
Quote
1st Kings 20:11~"And the king of Israel answered and said, Tell him, Let not him that girdeth on his harness boast himself as he that putteth it off."
« Last Edit: Fri May 08, 2020 - 05:50:44 by RB »

Offline lea

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #25 on: Fri May 08, 2020 - 14:23:34 »
     John Gill's exposition of the Bible makes you look like Christ hasn't won the victories for us: 1Kings 20:11-
Ver. 11 And the king of Israel answered and said
Very mildly and very wisely:

tell him, let not him that girdeth on his harness boast himself as he
that putteth it off;
that is, he that prepares for the battle as he that has got the victory; the sense is, let no man triumph before the battle is over and the victory won; the events of war are uncertain; the battle is not always to the strong.


Ha! RB,  Are you comparing me to a wartime general?!  I'm flattered.... not really!

So if you don't believe Christ won the battle over sin for us, over Satan for us, over death for us, over salvation by works for us, etc..... AND continually makes us conquerors - then I disagree with your using 1 Kings quote for anything except O.T. history.

Has nothing to do with end times anyway.

Offline lea

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #26 on: Fri May 08, 2020 - 14:31:20 »
And yes, I am rezar from 10 years ago too.  Stayed away too long and forgot my password, so I had to re-register.

I only "boast" in the Lord - Who gives me any talent and skills, and everything else good from God.  ::amen!::

Offline RB

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #27 on: Sat May 09, 2020 - 05:48:21 »
Ha! RB,  Are you comparing me to a wartime general?!  I'm flattered.... not really!
No, I trust that I'm wiser than to do so. Not really sure how you came up with that conclusion, but truly it should not surprise me and it does not.

I used 1st Kings 20:11 to warn folks who are just starting out to battle not to boast as he who is taking his armor off after many years of battles! My words which were few obviously went right over your head!
Quote from: lea lea on: Yesterday at 14:23:34
So if you don't believe Christ won the battle over sin for us, over Satan for us, over death for us, over salvation by works for us, etc..... AND continually makes us conquerors - then I disagree with your using 1 Kings quote for anything except O.T. history.
WOW! Is that what you got from me quoting 1st Kings 20:11 to you? If so, then you are not in position to debate even on an elementary level with beginners! Not sure I would want to waste my precious time with you, to be honest.

 

Offline lea

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #28 on: Sat May 09, 2020 - 21:44:45 »
Quote
I used 1st Kings 20:11 to warn folks who are just starting out to battle not to boast as he who is taking his armor off after many years of battles! My words which were few obviously went right over your head! WOW! Is that what you got from me quoting 1st Kings 20:11 to you? If so, then you are not in position to debate even on an elementary level with beginners! Not sure I would want to waste my precious time with you, to be honest.

You quoting 1Kings 20:11 to me is a waste of my precious time.

 I already have "victory" in Christ. Go do battle somewhere else. ::cool::


Offline RB

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #29 on: Wed May 13, 2020 - 05:03:57 »
You quoting 1Kings 20:11 to me is a waste of my precious time.

 I already have "victory" in Christ. Go do battle somewhere else
I'm SURE it is young soldier! So many young folks believe that wisdom was born WITH THEM and with them WILL DIE. That is called being deceived through the pride of one's own heart which IS deceitful ABOVE ALL THINGS.

Offline lea

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #30 on: Wed May 13, 2020 - 15:16:09 »
I'm SURE it is young soldier! So many young folks believe that wisdom was born WITH THEM and with them WILL DIE. That is called being deceived through the pride of one's own heart which IS deceitful ABOVE ALL THINGS.

I still want to know what your answer has to do with the TOPIC?

Offline RB

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #31 on: Thu May 14, 2020 - 04:46:12 »
I still want to know what your answer has to do with the TOPIC?
One more time then I'm finished with you on this. You said:
Quote from: lea on: Thu May 07, 2020 - 20:32:21
If you want to debate me about something in eschatology RB, let's do it! I put the past behind me but I'm still jazzed to show you who's on the money.
It was your boastful spirit~to which I said back to you:
Quote
1st Kings 20:11~"And the king of Israel answered and said, Tell him, Let not him that girdeth on his harness boast himself as he that putteth it off."
I have been doing this for around fifty years, and I was just reminding you NOT to boast toward him that is putting off his armor.

Besides, I have not as of yet seen any females that can defeat males in battle. That's why we have TWO SPORTS SYSTEMS in every nation under heaven~one for males, one for females. If in any area they could compete it WOULD BE on this level of a spiritual battle, but even here it would be hard, but it could happen (and I have seen it happen a few times over on a small level of discussions)  since all it takes is TRUTH and being filled with the Spirit of God which a female can, but there would be other factors when both of these are equal that would come into play even in this spiritual warfare.
« Last Edit: Thu May 14, 2020 - 04:50:57 by RB »

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #32 on: Thu May 14, 2020 - 09:30:50 »
Oh please, folks, let’s not let this disintegrate into an age vs. youth, male vs. female bash.  We can do better than that.  RB, I’m sure you remember the young but wise Elihu giving counsel to Job and his older friends, and Christ giving the very first post-resurrection, evangelistic commission to the woman Mary.  Boldness and confidence is often confused with a proud spirit.  I try not to mistake one for the other.

As for your one question to robycop3 about a so-called pretrib rapture, RB, I doubt you will get a response from scripture, since it is quite plainly presented as the opposite from II Thess. 2.

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #33 on: Thu May 14, 2020 - 14:23:33 »
Boldness and confidence is often confused with a proud spirit.  I try not to mistake one for the other.
So do I, yet her words were very clear as to why she said what she did....nevertheless, I'm finished and will forbear saying any more along these lines.
Quote from: 3 Resurrections on: Today at 09:30:50
As for your one question to robycop3 about a so-called pretrib rapture, RB, I doubt you will get a response from scripture, since it is quite plainly presented as the opposite from II Thess. 2.
I knew that when I asked the question based upon these words:
Quote from: Paul
2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3~"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Do you believe I would ask a question not knowing FIRST the answer? Never! A wise lawyer would never do so, and if one did, it only proves that he is not worth his legal fees and he should be the one paying you to work for you, since he's on the job learning by trial and error.

Much like folks do in debates...... especially beginners.  ::smile::
« Last Edit: Thu May 14, 2020 - 14:28:56 by RB »

Offline robycop3

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #34 on: Thu May 14, 2020 - 17:24:04 »
  And that man of sin has NOT yet been made manifest. Paul didn't make that statement on his own. JESUS gave it to him, as rumor-mongers were spreading the false statement among the Thessalonian Christians that Jesus had already returned.

  That's one of the Scriptures that proves preterism false.

 

     
anything