Author Topic: Revelation's symbolic language  (Read 5260 times)

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Online Rella

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #105 on: Fri Jun 19, 2020 - 07:21:44 »
  I look for a pope to be the "beast from the earth", the AC's sidekick, a miracle-working false prophet, who can do such things as supernaturally cause his boss' statue to speak, or call forth lightning. (only while in his boss' presence)

  I could be wrong there, of course. But it appears the RCC will have a hand in boosting the AC to power, similar to how it helped Hitler. And the AC will turn on the RCC, as Hitler did, only it'll be more -worldwide than Hitler's attack on it was.

 

Agreed. To the extent that the RCC is instrumental.

Whether from within  or as you feel outside of the church... they are in the mix.

I look at what Frankie says.... And his push for "green energy " whatever..... I look at his desires and push toward a one world order.... which both have been written on.....

And I wonder deeply about the "secret" meeting he had with Mike Pence ... secret in that the two held a private meeting .

From the Jesuit review
https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2020/01/24/mike-pence-and-pope-francis-meet-surprisingly-long-first-visit

And other articles talk of Calista Gingrich, Newts wife being instrumental in making this happen.

Getting the ducks all in a row, IMO.

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #105 on: Fri Jun 19, 2020 - 07:21:44 »

Offline robycop3

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #106 on: Sat Jun 20, 2020 - 07:58:22 »
Agreed. To the extent that the RCC is instrumental.

Whether from within  or as you feel outside of the church... they are in the mix.

I look at what Frankie says.... And his push for "green energy " whatever..... I look at his desires and push toward a one world order.... which both have been written on.....

And I wonder deeply about the "secret" meeting he had with Mike Pence ... secret in that the two held a private meeting .

From the Jesuit review
https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2020/01/24/mike-pence-and-pope-francis-meet-surprisingly-long-first-visit

And other articles talk of Calista Gingrich, Newts wife being instrumental in making this happen.

Getting the ducks all in a row, IMO.


  No doubt that the world is being prepped for the coming of the man of sin. I believe he will be charismatic, with almost-universal adulation, able to win approval from Protestants, Catholix, Jews, & Moslems alike. And I believe his biggest boost to power will be, by his Satanic ability, he will be able to broker a deal between Jew & Moslem, leading both sides to disarm, thus making Israel "a land of unwalled villages". Naturally, the RCC will be 100% for such a deal ! Whoever the pope may be then will likely be a leading figure in the negotiations.

  I don't know how this'll play out, of course, but it could clear the way for the Jews to build their new temple in Jerusalem. But if we live long enough to see these events beginning, we shall know the rapture is imminent, as God said He'd keep us from that hour of trial.

Offline Amo

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #107 on: Sun Jun 21, 2020 - 08:24:24 »
Quote
Again, the antichrist will be ONE MAN, as Scripture indicates. and it won't be a pope. no pope is popular enough to be loved by the world, & the AC won't acknowkedge any god but himself. How many RCs would follow a pope who doesn't acknowledge God?

  The beast of rev. 17 represents both the AC & his empire. Initially, 10 nations will unite under him, with their rulers being his vassals. However, he will have to overthrow three of them. They, and the AC, will rule for one prophetic hour, however long that is. (On the year-for-a-day principle, that'll be about 15 days, but I don't know if that's the case here.)  This man will be the same one mentioned in Rev. 13, & mentioned by Daniel & Paul.

  We have to put all the eschatological Scriptures together to realize the AC will be one man. But you must realize the RCC will never have the power it once had. While it remains the world's largest qseudo/quasi-Christian cult,  it's nowhere, & never will be, what it used to be when rulers of nations answered to the pope.

The beasts of biblical prophecy do not depend upon popularity to accomplish their goals. They only need the support of enough of the deceived to get in power, after which force comes into play, as the prophecies plainly state. You are confusing or joining things the scriptures themselves separate. The AC is not a beast, nor is the RCC of itself. The RCC is BABYLON THE GEAT, who rides beasts, but is not on her own a beast. The political powers she rides are the beasts. The RCC alone, and political entities alone are not beasts. When the RCC rides or controls the politics, then there is a beast. Rejecting scriptures identification of AC's, not just one AC, identifying AC and beasts as one, and basically ignoring the role of BABYLON THE GERAT with both of the same leaves you in deception. The wholesale rejection of the testimony of the Reformers before you who actually lived under the thumb of the first beast and antichrist power themselves, also contributes to leaving yourself in the dark.

The beast of Revelation 17 is also one of the seven before it. What is your explanation of this detail?

Offline Amo

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #108 on: Sun Jun 21, 2020 - 08:30:43 »
  No doubt that the world is being prepped for the coming of the man of sin. I believe he will be charismatic, with almost-universal adulation, able to win approval from Protestants, Catholix, Jews, & Moslems alike. And I believe his biggest boost to power will be, by his Satanic ability, he will be able to broker a deal between Jew & Moslem, leading both sides to disarm, thus making Israel "a land of unwalled villages". Naturally, the RCC will be 100% for such a deal ! Whoever the pope may be then will likely be a leading figure in the negotiations.

  I don't know how this'll play out, of course, but it could clear the way for the Jews to build their new temple in Jerusalem. But if we live long enough to see these events beginning, we shall know the rapture is imminent, as God said He'd keep us from that hour of trial.

The man of sin has already been identified in the past. He is antichrist by nature, and the institution he leads is as well. He has already set himself up in the temple of God during this new covenant era, which temple is the body of Christ, both of the individual professed Christian, and corporate bodies as well. Again, your rejection or perhaps ignorance of the testimony of previous Christians concerning this matter has left you in the dark. The final beast of biblical prophecy is not a new one, it is a resurrected one whose deadly wound is healed, and who rises out of the bottomless pit, which is the bottomless grave.
« Last Edit: Sun Jun 21, 2020 - 21:12:07 by Amo »

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #108 on: Sun Jun 21, 2020 - 08:30:43 »
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Offline Amo

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #109 on: Sat Jul 04, 2020 - 09:23:36 »
Quote
The beasts of biblical prophecy do not depend upon popularity to accomplish their goals. They only need the support of enough of the deceived to get in power, after which force comes into play, as the prophecies plainly state. You are confusing or joining things the scriptures themselves separate. The AC is not a beast, nor is the RCC of itself. The RCC is BABYLON THE GEAT, who rides beasts, but is not on her own a beast. The political powers she rides are the beasts. The RCC alone, and political entities alone are not beasts. When the RCC rides or controls the politics, then there is a beast. Rejecting scriptures identification of AC's, not just one AC, identifying AC and beasts as one, and basically ignoring the role of BABYLON THE GERAT with both of the same leaves you in deception. The wholesale rejection of the testimony of the Reformers before you who actually lived under the thumb of the first beast and antichrist power themselves, also contributes to leaving yourself in the dark.

The beast of Revelation 17 is also one of the seven before it. What is your explanation of this detail?

A correction to the above statement. Since 1929 the RCC has been a literal nation state of this world, albeit the smallest of all. Nevertheless, as such she has and exercises civil authority over said state. From which time then, she may also be considered a beast, mountain, or head of biblical prophecy. This only adds further truth to the statement in Revelation 17, that she is an eighth but also one of the seven. She existed before as a religious entity riding upon the back of civil authorities during the dark ages of the Holy Roman Empire. Now since 1929 she exists during the recovery of her mortal wound in the exalted position of a literal nation state as well. As such she is uniquely qualified to be an eighth and yet one of the seven at the same time. She already existed in the past atop the back of one beast, and she exists today as the tiniest literal nation state presuming a position upon the backs of all others in her globalist quest for world domination. Her political and or religious influence is set up in virtually every nation of this earth. She is that great city "which reigneth over the kings of the earth."

Rev 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: 2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. 3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. 7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. 8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. 9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. 12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. 14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. 15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. 16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. 17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. 18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9 If any man have an ear, let him hear. 10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. 11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. 12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. 16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
« Last Edit: Sat Jul 04, 2020 - 09:30:49 by Amo »

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #109 on: Sat Jul 04, 2020 - 09:23:36 »



Offline Choir Loft

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #110 on: Sat Jul 04, 2020 - 12:36:25 »
This almost makes me sick that Christians can think this way. context all out of wack... but they want and like to think this way sick! Why read antisemitism and hatred twardes God Jehovah  on the news when you can get it from Christians.

I agree with you.

Nearly ALL Xian interpretations of Revelation contain massive does of anti-semitic RACISM.  Jew haters one and all, they rely upon centuries old manifestations of deliberate false interpretations of Judaism, Jewish origins and Jewish LAW. 

Tell them the source of their error and they'll either ignore it or deny it.  Few admit to the point of their racist intoxication - hate of everything Jewish and of Jewish LAW.

Most of those people would prefer to rip the entire Old Testament (Tanakh as it is called in Hebrew) out of the Bible entirely and to deny the fact one cannot be saved apart from the LAW.   Jesus didn't come to destroy the LAW as He was quoted as saying in Matthew 5:17.  Jesus came to destroy SIN, yet post modern Xian's prefer to profess an admiration for nonexistent licentious LAWless grace.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

"I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you." - God speaking to Abraham in Genesis 12:3

Beware the cursed tongue of those who weave webs of anti-semitic dogma.  They are no friend of Christ.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Offline robycop3

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #111 on: Sun Jul 05, 2020 - 09:19:09 »
The beasts of biblical prophecy do not depend upon popularity to accomplish their goals. They only need the support of enough of the deceived to get in power, after which force comes into play, as the prophecies plainly state. You are confusing or joining things the scriptures themselves separate. The AC is not a beast, nor is the RCC of itself. The RCC is BABYLON THE GEAT, who rides beasts, but is not on her own a beast. The political powers she rides are the beasts. The RCC alone, and political entities alone are not beasts. When the RCC rides or controls the politics, then there is a beast. Rejecting scriptures identification of AC's, not just one AC, identifying AC and beasts as one, and basically ignoring the role of BABYLON THE GERAT with both of the same leaves you in deception. The wholesale rejection of the testimony of the Reformers before you who actually lived under the thumb of the first beast and antichrist power themselves, also contributes to leaving yourself in the dark.

The beast of Revelation 17 is also one of the seven before it. What is your explanation of this detail?

  No, the MAIN antichrist will be one man, who will rule most of the world. Just put the various eschatological Scriptures together to see that.

  And the beginning of his empire will be made of ten of the nations or peoples of the old Holy Roman empire. That's how it will be of the 7th.

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #112 on: Sun Jul 05, 2020 - 10:20:58 »
  No, the MAIN antichrist will be one man, who will rule most of the world. Just put the various eschatological Scriptures together to see that.

  And the beginning of his empire will be made of ten of the nations or peoples of the old Holy Roman empire. That's how it will be of the 7th.

Strange, the Pope of Rome was already the leader of a ten nation Holy Roman empire in the past, yet you don't think he was antichrist at the time. He is also presently calling for and actively pursuing global economy and governance. If he isn't antichrist it certainly wouldn't be because he's not trying to do exactly what antichrist will do. I think the ten horns or kings will likely be some global alliance, not just the ten kingdoms of the old Holy Roman empire again. Time will tell.

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #113 on: Sun Jul 05, 2020 - 16:15:16 »
Strange, the Pope of Rome was already the leader of a ten nation Holy Roman empire in the past, yet you don't think he was antichrist at the time. He is also presently calling for and actively pursuing global economy and governance. If he isn't antichrist it certainly wouldn't be because he's not trying to do exactly what antichrist will do. I think the ten horns or kings will likely be some global alliance, not just the ten kingdoms of the old Holy Roman empire again. Time will tell.

  No candidate for pope has the popularity to become the antichrist. Frankie isn't that popular.

  Like Hitler, the antichrist will be a demagogue who will at first say exactly what most people wanna hear, only he will be far-more-effective than Hitler was.

  I believe napoleon & Hitler were "types", forerunners of the antichrist. Napoleon used the RCC for his own projects, while Hitler used it  to get his "Enabling Act" passed in the Reichstag, which gave him almost-absolute power in Germany, then, Hitler turned on it. That's why many SDAs believed Hitler was the antichrist. And for awhile, it seemed like it, as everything Hitler tried succeeded, but after France fell, his demon left him & he quickly went South.

  But the AC won't have a mere demon as Nappy & Adolf did. He will be indwelt by Satan himself. No man will be able to withstand him, & God will allow him to attack & conquer the saints. He will be far-worse than Hitler, Napoleon, Stalin, Pol Pot, Tamerlane, & Genghis Khan all combined.

  I'm thinking the 7 heads will be the global alliance, while the 10 horns will be the beginning of his empire, which Scripture says will be of the 7th empire, which has passed.

  And let's not forget that the greatest empire so far-the British empire-was not all won by force of arms. There was a lotta deal-making involved ! I believe the AC will operate this way too, at times.

  And he will rule til Jesus returns. He will send his army against Him, but He will destroy it by is spoken word. And then, the antichrist & his sidekick the false prophet will be cast alive into the lake of fire, as Scripture says.

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #114 on: Sat Jul 11, 2020 - 11:33:49 »
  No candidate for pope has the popularity to become the antichrist. Frankie isn't that popular.

  Like Hitler, the antichrist will be a demagogue who will at first say exactly what most people wanna hear, only he will be far-more-effective than Hitler was.

  I believe napoleon & Hitler were "types", forerunners of the antichrist. Napoleon used the RCC for his own projects, while Hitler used it  to get his "Enabling Act" passed in the Reichstag, which gave him almost-absolute power in Germany, then, Hitler turned on it. That's why many SDAs believed Hitler was the antichrist. And for awhile, it seemed like it, as everything Hitler tried succeeded, but after France fell, his demon left him & he quickly went South.

  But the AC won't have a mere demon as Nappy & Adolf did. He will be indwelt by Satan himself. No man will be able to withstand him, & God will allow him to attack & conquer the saints. He will be far-worse than Hitler, Napoleon, Stalin, Pol Pot, Tamerlane, & Genghis Khan all combined.

  I'm thinking the 7 heads will be the global alliance, while the 10 horns will be the beginning of his empire, which Scripture says will be of the 7th empire, which has passed.

  And let's not forget that the greatest empire so far-the British empire-was not all won by force of arms. There was a lotta deal-making involved ! I believe the AC will operate this way too, at times.

  And he will rule til Jesus returns. He will send his army against Him, but He will destroy it by is spoken word. And then, the antichrist & his sidekick the false prophet will be cast alive into the lake of fire, as Scripture says.

If SDA's of the time considered Hitler to be antichrist, it would have been because of his connection and support of the Pope and his minions. I would be interested in some documentation of this belief if it be true. You think Hitler and Napoleon used the RCC, but the RCC was not using them? The RCC was the first political entity to sign an accord with the Nazi party, and advise their faithful to support them. This was not a one sided deal. Napoleon dethroned and exiled the Pope, disbanding the papal estate. He considered the Jesuits an enemy army, which they are. They are the enemies of all nations and or institutions which do not submit to the Roman Pontiff from within them.  The Papacy does not depend upon popularity to rule, it routinely bypasses the will of the peoples of nations to hop in bed with their kings and or leaders in order to establish her power. Pay attention to the details of the prophecies.

Rev 17:1  And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: 2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.................................
9  And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sitteth...............................
15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.................................
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth...............................................

Rev 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities............................
9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,...............................................
11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:......................................
16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls! 17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,


The papacy is becoming increasingly popular and highly regarded by politicians and the rich of the earth the world over, as in evidenced by the ever changing political landscape toward her own written and expressed desires concerning the same. Deny this if you wish, but the description of biblical prophecy regarding her leaves little room for such closed mindedness. She is actively involved in everything described in the prophecies, and is literally the visual picture of "that great city,.......clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!"
« Last Edit: Sat Jul 11, 2020 - 11:36:24 by Amo »

Offline robycop3

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #115 on: Sun Jul 12, 2020 - 05:45:19 »
  I don't deny for an instant that the RCC is the harlot of Rev. 17, but, just as Hitler "went to bed" with it to serve his purposes, then, turned on it, the antichrist will do likewise, only his persecution won't be limited to one nation, as Hitler's was.  Once the AC gains power, he won't need the RCC any more. Remember, the AC will declare himself to be the only god there is.

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #116 on: Sun Jul 12, 2020 - 10:13:33 »
  I don't deny for an instant that the RCC is the harlot of Rev. 17, but, just as Hitler "went to bed" with it to serve his purposes, then, turned on it, the antichrist will do likewise, only his persecution won't be limited to one nation, as Hitler's was.  Once the AC gains power, he won't need the RCC any more. Remember, the AC will declare himself to be the only god there is.

We see this differently. The evil one inspires all of this. I don't see him turning against the system he has already inspired to be put in place, which is already acting in defiance of God. He will arrive on the scene to verify the positions he has already inspired and put in place. His miracles and teachings will be the final touches of establishing the same. Why go to war with those who already serve you?

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

You think the final AC will be a man, even if he is, he will be carrying out the "power and signs and lying wonders" of Satan as the scriptures plainly state. The mystery of iniquity was already at work during Paul's day. BABYBLON THE GREAT is the institution of the mystery of iniquity. Satan will not destroy or war against his institution of iniquity when he finalizes his deceptions over the deceived, he will thoroughly establish it, as the scriptures testify.

Rev 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: 2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. 3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. 7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is the revelation of the mystery of Godliness, and BABYLON THE GREAT is the revelation of the mystery of iniquity. These two opposing powers and the institutions they represent will be fully developed and revealed through the division of humanity into one or the other of these parties before Christ returns. All decisions will be made according to humanities submission to one or the other, and then the end shall come. The church of Christ revealing the mystery of Godliness in willing submission to Him and His sacrifice at all costs, and the church of Rome and her adherents revealing the mystery of iniquity by their compromise of all that is godly with the powers that be of this world in submission to the evil one. At which point, these mysteries will no longer be such, but plain for all to see with their courses played out on this planet right before it ends.

Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. 8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. 9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. 14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

When the global harvests are ripe, they will be reaped.


« Last Edit: Sun Jul 12, 2020 - 10:17:49 by Amo »

Offline robycop3

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #117 on: Sun Jul 12, 2020 - 10:45:42 »
 Note that there are TWO falls of Babylon; the first one has already occurred. God said it'd never be rebuilt; looked what happened to Saddam for trying to rebuild it !

  The 2nd Babylon might well be Rome.

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #118 on: Sun Jul 12, 2020 - 11:58:21 »
Note that there are TWO falls of Babylon; the first one has already occurred. God said it'd never be rebuilt; looked what happened to Saddam for trying to rebuild it !

  The 2nd Babylon might well be Rome.

Yes, there are two Babylons of scripture, literal Babylon and spiritual Babylon. Just as there are two Israel's of scripture, literal Israel and spiritual Israel. Therefore shall all Israel be saved.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. 15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. 16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.



Offline Choir Loft

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #119 on: Wed Jul 15, 2020 - 12:52:33 »
The women represents apostate Jerusalem....... I dont think so....... more MAN words.... not biblical!

This is an anti-semitic doctrine that was promoted by the Roman Catholic church in the doctrine called FUTURISM, which was published in 1590 by Jesuit priest Francisco Ribera.

In point of fact NOBODY today holds to the standard interpretation of Biblical prophecy/interpretation.  Nearly 100% of Christians formulate their opinions from Biblically illiterate TV preachers (*), Christian tabloid literature and movies, and weird dreams caused by bad potatoes from last night's dinner.

What is the benchmark of standard Biblical prophecy? 

Without going into too much detail the general principle is that the Bible interprets itself.  No outside references are necessary.   Actual history has proven Biblical predictions to be true.
Secondly, the context of the ENTIRE Bible must be considered and applied to determine what is being said or taught.   Using snippets of scripture to justify a predetermined doctrine is as false and phony as snowballs in July.

Take a look at beasts and animal imagery in the Bible. 

When determining subjects relating to eschatology the book of Daniel and Revelation generally work together.  Examine the scriptures as a whole - each book in its entirety.  Since most Christians haven't ever read the Bible from cover to cover, this may come as a shock. Generally speaking animals represent systems nations and organizations.  Horns growing out of those animals generally represent leadership of that system nation or organization

For instance, Revelation 13:1-10 describes what has come to be known as the Sea Beast.  It is called the Sea Beast because it arises out of many waters.  The many waters are explained later in Revelation 17:15 as "many peoples and nations and tongues."  Thus the Beast as it has come to be known by ignorant people is not a man, but a global enterprise.   The prostitute that rides the Sea Beast is a leader of the organization and is described as being drunk with the blood of the saints.   It is historic fact that the Roman Catholic church is guilty of murdering more than 55 million Jews and believers in Christ.  No other organization or nation has so much blood on its hands.

The Earth Beast of Revelation 13:11-13 is much more limited in size and is made in the image of the Sea Beast.  This Earth Beast is generally thought to indicate the United States, which was established along the same religious lines as the Sea Beast and which marches in lock step with the Vatican (as well as most other nations).  Bible prophetic beasts generally have multiple horns, meaning multiple leaders.   The Earth Beast has only two.  Is it coincidence that the United States has only two governing political parties when all other nations have either one party or many political parties? 

In addition, Revelation 13 states the beast (organization, not a man) would utter blaspheme against God.  Blaspheme is defined as a claim to BE god.  Read the following statement issued by the Roman Catholic church.

"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in heaven and earth." - Barclay Cap. XXVII, p. 218. Cities Petrus Bertrandus, Pius V.

According to a story that first appeared in a 1475 posthumous biography and was subsequently embellished and popularized by Pierre-Simon Laplace, Callixtus III excommunicated the 1456 appearance of Halley's Comet, believing it to be an ill omen for the Christian defenders of Belgrade from the besieging armies of the Ottoman Empire. - Wikipedia

Revelation 13:3 describes a mortal wound to one of the heads (leaders) of the beast (Sea Beast - organization, not a man).   Verse 12 of that same chapter states that the fatal wound would be healed.  Consider actual history:
 
Feb 20, 1797 - Pope Pius VI arrested by French General Berthier and the Vatican property confiscated.  He died in prison less than two years later.
1929 Lateran Accord - Italian dictator Benito Mussolini signed this treaty recognizing the pope as the sovereign of Vatican City.  The Vatican was paid $100 million for real estate seizures and allowed to reinstate its property holdings in Rome (Vatican city).

In the intervening years, there was no pope at all - no head of the Roman Catholic church.  Thus a head (horn) of the Sea Beast was mortally wounded (the Pope actually died) and was later healed/reinstated by Fascist dictator Benito Mussolini.

Neither history nor the Bible implies or suggests Jews had anything to do with these events.   Please read your Bible without prejudiced doctrine in mind.   

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) Jimmie Baker was a noted TV evangelist from the 1980's who was arrested and did prison time for real estate fraud.  He has since testified that the FIRST TIME he read the Bible from cover to cover was when he had a lot of time on his hands in prison.   Mr. Baker is out of stir now and is hosting yet another TV show to promote his bogus gospels.
« Last Edit: Wed Jul 15, 2020 - 13:02:25 by Choir Loft »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #120 on: Wed Jul 15, 2020 - 13:11:40 »
Yes, there are two Babylons of scripture, literal Babylon and spiritual Babylon. Just as there are two Israel's of scripture, literal Israel and spiritual Israel. Therefore shall all Israel be saved.
Scripturally, there is no such thing as a "Spiritual Israel." Only Israel with believing gentiles grafted in.  Rom 11

Offline robycop3

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #121 on: Fri Jul 17, 2020 - 05:00:49 »
This is an anti-semitic doctrine that was promoted by the Roman Catholic church in the doctrine called FUTURISM, which was published in 1590 by Jesuit priest Francisco Ribera.

In point of fact NOBODY today holds to the standard interpretation of Biblical prophecy/interpretation.  Nearly 100% of Christians formulate their opinions from Biblically illiterate TV preachers (*), Christian tabloid literature and movies, and weird dreams caused by bad potatoes from last night's dinner.

What is the benchmark of standard Biblical prophecy? 

Without going into too much detail the general principle is that the Bible interprets itself.  No outside references are necessary.   Actual history has proven Biblical predictions to be true.
Secondly, the context of the ENTIRE Bible must be considered and applied to determine what is being said or taught.   Using snippets of scripture to justify a predetermined doctrine is as false and phony as snowballs in July.

Take a look at beasts and animal imagery in the Bible. 

When determining subjects relating to eschatology the book of Daniel and Revelation generally work together.  Examine the scriptures as a whole - each book in its entirety.  Since most Christians haven't ever read the Bible from cover to cover, this may come as a shock. Generally speaking animals represent systems nations and organizations.  Horns growing out of those animals generally represent leadership of that system nation or organization

For instance, Revelation 13:1-10 describes what has come to be known as the Sea Beast.  It is called the Sea Beast because it arises out of many waters.  The many waters are explained later in Revelation 17:15 as "many peoples and nations and tongues."  Thus the Beast as it has come to be known by ignorant people is not a man, but a global enterprise.   The prostitute that rides the Sea Beast is a leader of the organization and is described as being drunk with the blood of the saints.   It is historic fact that the Roman Catholic church is guilty of murdering more than 55 million Jews and believers in Christ.  No other organization or nation has so much blood on its hands.

The Earth Beast of Revelation 13:11-13 is much more limited in size and is made in the image of the Sea Beast.  This Earth Beast is generally thought to indicate the United States, which was established along the same religious lines as the Sea Beast and which marches in lock step with the Vatican (as well as most other nations).  Bible prophetic beasts generally have multiple horns, meaning multiple leaders.   The Earth Beast has only two.  Is it coincidence that the United States has only two governing political parties when all other nations have either one party or many political parties? 

In addition, Revelation 13 states the beast (organization, not a man) would utter blaspheme against God.  Blaspheme is defined as a claim to BE god.  Read the following statement issued by the Roman Catholic church.

"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in heaven and earth." - Barclay Cap. XXVII, p. 218. Cities Petrus Bertrandus, Pius V.

According to a story that first appeared in a 1475 posthumous biography and was subsequently embellished and popularized by Pierre-Simon Laplace, Callixtus III excommunicated the 1456 appearance of Halley's Comet, believing it to be an ill omen for the Christian defenders of Belgrade from the besieging armies of the Ottoman Empire. - Wikipedia

Revelation 13:3 describes a mortal wound to one of the heads (leaders) of the beast (Sea Beast - organization, not a man).   Verse 12 of that same chapter states that the fatal wound would be healed.  Consider actual history:
 
Feb 20, 1797 - Pope Pius VI arrested by French General Berthier and the Vatican property confiscated.  He died in prison less than two years later.
1929 Lateran Accord - Italian dictator Benito Mussolini signed this treaty recognizing the pope as the sovereign of Vatican City.  The Vatican was paid $100 million for real estate seizures and allowed to reinstate its property holdings in Rome (Vatican city).

In the intervening years, there was no pope at all - no head of the Roman Catholic church.  Thus a head (horn) of the Sea Beast was mortally wounded (the Pope actually died) and was later healed/reinstated by Fascist dictator Benito Mussolini.

Neither history nor the Bible implies or suggests Jews had anything to do with these events.   Please read your Bible without prejudiced doctrine in mind.   

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) Jimmie Baker was a noted TV evangelist from the 1980's who was arrested and did prison time for real estate fraud.  He has since testified that the FIRST TIME he read the Bible from cover to cover was when he had a lot of time on his hands in prison.   Mr. Baker is out of stir now and is hosting yet another TV show to promote his bogus gospels.

  This is all 7th day adventist stuff.

  The antichrist will be one man. Both he & his empire will be the 'sea beast'. And there were quite a few popes between 1798 & 1929. And the world did not marvel nor follow the RCC when the papacy was restored.

  The man will overthrow 3 rulers in a 10-nation coalition to attain power.

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #122 on: Fri Jul 17, 2020 - 18:52:14 »
  This is all 7th day adventist stuff.

  The antichrist will be one man. Both he & his empire will be the 'sea beast'. And there were quite a few popes between 1798 & 1929. And the world did not marvel nor follow the RCC when the papacy was restored.

  The man will overthrow 3 rulers in a 10-nation coalition to attain power.

And the world did not marvel nor follow the RCC when the papacy was restored.

The time was not right.

And now they have a Jesuit head. Always remember that and keepyour eyes and ears open.


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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #123 on: Sat Jul 18, 2020 - 06:36:47 »
Scripturally, there is no such thing as a "Spiritual Israel." Only Israel with believing gentiles grafted in.  Rom 11
Romans 11 details the distinction between national or ethnic Israel and spiritual Israel which Paul alluded to earlier in Romans 9: But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named" (vss. 6,7).

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #124 on: Thu Jul 23, 2020 - 13:26:17 »
Scripturally, there is no such thing as a "Spiritual Israel." Only Israel with believing gentiles grafted in.  Rom 11
It's true you can't find those words in Scripture verbatim.  And that phrase has sometimes been co-opted by anti-Semites throughout history, which causes me to shy away from it.

Nonetheless, there is definitely a New Testament doctrine of heredity that is contrary to the practice of reckoning who-is-an-Israelite by genealogy.

In Matthew 3, John the Baptist identifies the Jewish leaders as "born of vipers," and tells them not to advertise themselves as "children of Abraham."  He proceeds to proclaim that God can raise up children to Abraham from the stones, and links this to baptism and repentance.

In John 8, Jesus first acknowledges the Pharisees as "seed of Abraham," but immediately after discredits them as Abraham's children based on their behavior, labeling them as "children of the devil" and saying their forefathers were those who "stoned the prophets."   "Ye do the deeds of your father," says Jesus, establishing behavior as the Biblical criteria for heredity, rather than genealogy.

Matthew 7 contains an even clearer statement of the same doctrine:

Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.  A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.  Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.  Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Paul tells us to avoid useless genealogies twice.  He defines the body of believers in opposition to "Israel after the flesh" in one epistle and the "election" in opposition to "Israel" in Romans.

It isn't wrong to say that Gentiles are grafted in, but it might be an understatement.  As I understand the Old Testament prophets, they say that Israel was sentenced to death, but that a promise remained that God would resurrect Israel, and that the resurrected Israel would be (re)born out of the Goyim.

Jarrod

Offline robycop3

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #125 on: Thu Jul 23, 2020 - 15:42:28 »
    God made specifis promises about literal, national Israel & Judah to Abe, Ike, & Jake.

   Now, while anyone, Israeli or gentile, can become a Christian, one can only be an Israeli by ancestry. And Paul, speaking on authority from Jesus, reminded the peanut gallery that God had NOT discarded Israel, that he, also, was a Jew.

  Now, no one with a lick of sense can deny that the establishment of modern Israel was a miracle, against all human odds. And it occurred, despite most Jews rejecting Jesus as Messiah & Savior. It was because God had said He'd do it, & He's gonna make Judah & Israel mone nation again, as well, as He said.

 

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #126 on: Fri Jul 24, 2020 - 17:12:18 »
anyone, Israeli or gentile, can become a Christian, one can only be an Israeli by ancestry.
I have one word for you - adoption.

It's kind of a big deal in the Bible.

Offline robycop3

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #127 on: Sat Jul 25, 2020 - 06:21:58 »
  But it doesn't make a gentile into an Israeli.

My wife & I are white. If we were to adopt a black child, would it make that child white ?

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #128 on: Mon Jul 27, 2020 - 16:29:14 »
But it doesn't make a gentile into an Israeli.
Yes, it does.

My wife & I are white. If we were to adopt a black child, would it make that child white ?
Irrelevant.

If you and your wife were Jewish, and you were to adopt a black child, would it make that child Jewish?  Yes, it would, provided that he fulfilled the conditions set out.

If you're Christian, and you adopt a child of ANY color, and your raise him to be God-fearing, and he is baptized a Christian at an accountable age, he is a Christian.  Who would argue with that?

Maybe you should re-read my post above on the Biblical criteria for reckoning "who is a child of Abraham?"  It explicitly ISN'T genealogy.

Jarrod

Offline robycop3

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #129 on: Tue Jul 28, 2020 - 04:26:59 »
Yes, it does.
Irrelevant.

If you and your wife were Jewish, and you were to adopt a black child, would it make that child Jewish?  Yes, it would, provided that he fulfilled the conditions set out.

If you're Christian, and you adopt a child of ANY color, and your raise him to be God-fearing, and he is baptized a Christian at an accountable age, he is a Christian.  Who would argue with that?

Maybe you should re-read my post above on the Biblical criteria for reckoning "who is a child of Abraham?"  It explicitly ISN'T genealogy.

Jarrod

  But God made specific promises to literal Israel, and the establishment of modern Israel, against all human odds, is nothing short of miraculous. And remember, God made it plain to Paul that He hadn't abandoned the Israeli people.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #130 on: Tue Jul 28, 2020 - 07:09:16 »
God never abandoned the “children of promise”, which included those of the faithful “remnant” of ethnic Israelites - the “election” which had obtained the promise.

According to John 1:13, God’s true children as the sons of God are born...

“not of blood” (by Israelite racial descent),

“nor of the will of the flesh”  (as the celestial-fleshed angelic sons of God in Gen. 6:1-4 married human women to produce hybrid angel-human children),

“nor of the will of man” (by the futile efforts of mankind “going about to establish their own righteousness” before God - Rom. 10:3)

“But OF GOD” (because “OF HIM are ye in Christ Jesus...I Cor. 1:30)

You’re not really a racist, robycop3, you just come across as a race-aholic.

« Last Edit: Tue Jul 28, 2020 - 07:13:13 by 3 Resurrections »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #131 on: Thu Jul 30, 2020 - 06:31:29 »
  But it doesn't make a gentile into an Israeli.

My wife & I are white. If we were to adopt a black child, would it make that child white ?
Actually it does.  Not genetically of course, but spiritually it does. And the bible is not interested in genetics. Formal conversion (last step being circumcision) makes one just as much Jewish as chief rabbi of Israel.

Galatians 5:3
And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.

The Law was written to Israel, not the other nations.

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #132 on: Thu Jul 30, 2020 - 09:12:22 »
  But it doesn't make a gentile into an Israeli.

My wife & I are white. If we were to adopt a black child, would it make that child white ?

After my birth mom died and my dad remarried... my new mom adopted me legally.

Last year... needing to get my enhanced drivers license I went to apply and the copy of my birth certificate... given out at the hospital... was only a birth announcement and was not acceptable.

So I had to apply for and get a new one from the state.

I was a little surprised to see that on the legitimate birth certificate that came from the state that my adoptive mom was listed as my mother.

All else remained the same.....

So, legally and according to the state she is my mother. And any future family geneologist checking back and seeing this will
naturally say this great Italian lady is my  mom and that this half German half scot/irish mix must also be hald Italian rofl

In your example no... not white.... But if you do a legal adoption... that child would be considered to be equal to any natural born you would have ::tippinghat::

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #133 on: Fri Jul 31, 2020 - 08:22:40 »
Let's return to the original thrust of the post for a moment.  I disagree with the identification of the great city as Jerusalem.  The overtly secular power attributed to it in Revelation as well as the description of it as the city that sits on seven hills clearly identify this city as ancient Rome, the traditional identification until the recent push by the early daters of Revelation of the City as Jerusalem.  I am not going to list the arguments here for an AD 93 dating of Revelation, they are well known and available on the web.  What I am going to propose is that much of the book of Revelation should be interpreted as a spiritual metaphor for the conflict between the early Church and the Roman empire.  If the lions share of the book is to mapped onto history between the time of Christ and the fall of Rome, which the text strongly implies, the the two Beasts of Revelation 13 should map to two kingdoms arising and falling consecutively during this period.  The only two kingdoms that fit this criteria are the early pagan and later "ostensibly" christian Roman empires.  Please see "The Two Beasts of Revelation 13 Identified" on scribd for a treatment of this hypothesis.

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #134 on: Fri Jul 31, 2020 - 12:56:49 »
Let's return to the original thrust of the post for a moment.  I disagree with the identification of the great city as Jerusalem.  The overtly secular power attributed to it in Revelation as well as the description of it as the city that sits on seven hills clearly identify this city as ancient Rome, the traditional identification until the recent push by the early daters of Revelation of the City as Jerusalem.  I am not going to list the arguments here for an AD 93 dating of Revelation, they are well known and available on the web.  What I am going to propose is that much of the book of Revelation should be interpreted as a spiritual metaphor for the conflict between the early Church and the Roman empire.  If the lions share of the book is to mapped onto history between the time of Christ and the fall of Rome, which the text strongly implies, the the two Beasts of Revelation 13 should map to two kingdoms arising and falling consecutively during this period.  The only two kingdoms that fit this criteria are the early pagan and later "ostensibly" christian Roman empires.  Please see "The Two Beasts of Revelation 13 Identified" on scribd for a treatment of this hypothesis.

As you can see by my signature line I am definitely into the later date of Revelation.

But if Revelation should be interpreted as a "spiritual metaphor" why would you suppose that John thought it was a revelation  and wrote it as though it was  fact?

And the most oddity would be... if it was a metaphore, what  purpose would the warning

Rev 22:19 “And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.”

For John said this is a book of prophecy....

And is followed by

 20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

I have to say calling Revelation a spiritual methaphor does not tally with Rev 19 and/or 20.

Offline Amo

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #135 on: Fri Jul 31, 2020 - 23:05:55 »
Actually it does.  Not genetically of course, but spiritually it does. And the bible is not interested in genetics. Formal conversion (last step being circumcision) makes one just as much Jewish as chief rabbi of Israel.

Galatians 5:3
And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.

The Law was written to Israel, not the other nations.

The remnant of Israel who accepted Jesus Christ as their promised Messiah and King, became the true Israel of God in contradiction to those who rejected Him. Those Jews, the disciples among them, formed the new covenant church or Israel of God. They accepted the teachings of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and the changes made in relation especially to the civil and ceremonial laws of literal Israel, concerning new covenant Israel in Christ Jesus. The Jews who accepted their Messiah Jesus Christ as such for the entire world became the true Israel of God, those who rejected Him had the kingdom taken away from them.

Mat 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: 34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. 35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. 36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. 37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. 38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. 39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. 40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? 41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. 42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God, 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

1 Cor 7:19 For circumcision is nothing and counts for nothing, neither does uncircumcision, but [what counts is] keeping the commandments of God.(AMPC)

Offline Amo

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #136 on: Fri Jul 31, 2020 - 23:13:41 »
  This is all 7th day adventist stuff.

  The antichrist will be one man. Both he & his empire will be the 'sea beast'. And there were quite a few popes between 1798 & 1929. And the world did not marvel nor follow the RCC when the papacy was restored.

  The man will overthrow 3 rulers in a 10-nation coalition to attain power.

To the contrary, most of it is simply recorded history. As far as the beasts representing kingdoms or nations, this was believed by many a Christian long long before there ever was an SDA.

Offline DanielConway

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #137 on: Sat Aug 01, 2020 - 10:24:09 »
As you can see by my signature line I am definitely into the later date of Revelation.

But if Revelation should be interpreted as a "spiritual metaphor" why would you suppose that John thought it was a revelation  and wrote it as though it was  fact?

And the most oddity would be... if it was a metaphore, what  purpose would the warning

Rev 22:19 “And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.”

For John said this is a book of prophecy....

And is followed by

 20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

I have to say calling Revelation a spiritual methaphor does not tally with Rev 19 and/or 20.

Define your terms.  I don't think you believe that when John sees a beast arising up out of the sea or out of the land he means there are going to be literal monsters stalking around the planet.  They are symbols, AKA metaphors, for kingdoms.  By the same argument the bowl judgements poured out on the beast and his kingdom are probably symbols, metaphors, for the horrible afflictions that God poured out on the Roman Empire during the Imperial crisis, barbarian invasions, plagues, famines, civil wars, invasions by the Persian Empire, and such.  You see, it is possible for a metaphor to represent something quite real.  I suggest you make a study of the apocalyptic literature that was floating around the Roman Empire during this period.  It was a genre unto itself of which Revelation was only one.  Admittedly Revelation was the only canonical apocalyptic, but God often condescends to speak to us in a language we understand, and to understand how the church of John's day would have interpreted Revelation you would do to make a study of this aspect of the culture.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #138 on: Yesterday at 06:12:09 »
Quote
The remnant of Israel who accepted Jesus Christ as their promised Messiah and King, became the true Israel of God in contradiction to those who rejected Him.
Amo you KNOW that is replacement theology and in error.  the believing Gentiles do not become "the true Israel of God;" but are added to it. Romans 11 makes it clear that much of the the true Israel of God are "enemies of the gospel."

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Re: Revelation's symbolic language
« Reply #139 on: Yesterday at 17:46:29 »
The true Israel IS the righteous remnant. The natural branches that have been broken off of the olive tree are lost (the remnant of thebonesbvrafted BACK on is the true Israel of God, along with the grafted on Gentile Christians). The broken Off branches that have been grafted BACK on CANNOT BE ENEMIES of God, they are HIS! The ones NOT grafted back on ARE ememies of God and NOT the true Israel of God. The Israel of  God is simply His people, Jew or Gentile.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 21:51:11 by Jaime »

 

     
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