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Offline halfback

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Reversals of Scripture By Separation Theology
« on: Tue Dec 07, 2010 - 10:29:24 »

Reversals of Scripture By Separation Theology

What is called dispensationalism has also bee called Scofieldism, the Rapture Cult and Separation Theology

On  http://www.scionofzion.com/revisers.htm

 Dave MacPherson makes a number of statements about the origins of separation theology..

MacPherson says "John Walvoord truthfully viewed as one of the "early" pretribs!), have also claimed that Darby first "understood" pretrib in either late 1826 or early 1827, and that Darby based his earliest development primarily on the "distinction" between the
"church" and "Israel" which, he said, would necessitate a separation between both groups that only a pretrib rapture could attain."

John Darby (1800-1882) said that the dispensation of law ended at the cross when the dispensation of grace began. But then when the seven year dispensationalist tribulation period begins, another dispensation of law begins - so proposed Darby.  This created a problem  for Darby's thery.  How could another dispensation of law go on when the Church was still on earth?  He thought that in the dispensation of law during the tribulation, God would be dealing with the Jews. Would the Church in the
tribulation return to be under the law?  The solution was that Darby postulated that before the events of the tribulation began and the one man dispensationalist Anti-Christ appeared, the Church would be raptured off the earth.  With the Church gone, God would then turned to deal with the Jews during the tribulation.  This point of Darby's theory may be the origin of the claim that the Book of Revelation is only for the Jews, since only they of God's people will be on earth in the tribulation.

If the Church is raptured off the earth, leaving the Jews, what happens to the few Jews who have accepted Christ?  Darby and later dispensationalists do noit seem to deal with Messianic Jews, or with the vast majority of Jews who have rejected Christ entirely.

Darby proposed a radical separation between the Church and the Jews, and apparently then said that
when a Jew comes to believe in Christ he becomes part of the Church and is no longer part of Israel.
Of course, the messianic Jews would tend to reject this idea, wanting to be followers of Messiah and still be part of Israel.

MacPherson goes on to say that
"Not until 1839 ("Notes on the Revelation") did Darby have clear pretrib teaching! Basing it on Rev. 12:5's "man child" who was "caught up,"  he wrote: "If we apply it to the saints, who overcome here...then we find that...they are caught up out of his [the dragon's] way....; and the trial and persecution fall on those who are left here----upon the woman." 

"In the Sep., 1830 Irvingite journal, a writer discussing Revelation's seven churches taught that "Philadelphia" will be "caught up" before a future "period of great tribulation" while the "Laodicean church" will be left behind "on earth" to face that period----the first clear
public teaching of pretrib that I've found."
 
"My book "The Rapture Plot" has seven pages of short quotes from the same Irvingite mouthpiece (1831-1833) which indisputably disclose a pretrib rapture as well as pretrib-type imminence----all appearing in print years before Darby expressed such concepts! The same book of mine also lists 21 short quotes that pretrib dispensationalists agree were Darby's earliest prophetic thoughts----"truths" they claimed he alone derived from Scripture, "truths" that supposedly led him to come up with the pretrib idea before anyone else. After I quoted them, I revealed that ALL of them were actually Irving's words in his preface to Manuel Lacunza's 1827 work and added that Irving revealed that he had held to those "truths" since 1825! "

Note:  Manuel or Emmanuel Lacunza, 1731-1801, was a Jesuit priest who wrote The Coming of the Messiah in Glory and Majesty (1790).  Supposedly Lacunza wrote that before Christ appeared the second time  there would be a general apostasy of the Catholic Church which would make it part of the Anti-christ. What is important also is that Lacunza'a book was based upon a futurist interpretation of Bible prophecy.  According to http://www.theologue.org/Theory-JPEby.html   Lacunza the Jesuit also claimed that Jesus will return return twice, and on his first return return He "raptures" the Church so they can escape the reign of the "future antichrist."  This interpretation of a future Anti-Christ as one man was apparently meant to steer the Protestants away from saying the Pope was the present Anti-Christ.

Edward Irving, an associate of John Darby and the English Plymouth Brethren,  discovered Lacunza's book and was influenced by it.   He translated it into English, and it was published  in 1827.

On the site shown above  Dave MacPherson writes that "Years ago my wife and I visited an elderly fellow believer in his home in Alberta, Canada who told us, from firsthand knowledge, that soon after
the Bolsheviks seized power in Russia in 1917, a man in that country went to his pastor, angrily threw down his Bible, and shouted: "You lied to us!  You said we would be raptured away first!"  The Dutch heroine Corrie ten Boom declared in a 1974 article that when communism took over in China "millions of Christians were tortured to death" who had previously been assured: "Don't worry, before the tribulation comes you will be translated----raptured." 

So, in spite of several New Testament verses that plainly say Christ has one fold and one body, or one Body of Christ, separation theology says God has two very different peoples with whom he deals in different ways, the Jews, still his chosen, and the Church.  This radical separation of Israel and Church, which is contrary to what the Bible says, is closely tied up in the dispensationalisat system with the pre-trib rapture of the Church.  The Church has to be taken off the earth in order for God to deal with the Jews in a different way than he deals with the Christian Church.

And - separation theology teaches a consistent literal system of interpretation of all Scripture.

Francisco Ribera, followed by another Jesuit, Emmanuel Lacunza taught futurism and that the Anti-Christ was to be a single person who would appear in the future, during the tribulation. Lacuinza, at least, is attributed to having said that there would be a pre-tribulation rapture of Christians so they would escape the reign of the Anti-Christ.

The dispensationalists do believe in a future one man Anti-Christ, and the comic book version of this says that the Anti-Christ will make a treaty with the Jews and then go back on it to sacrifice a pig in the newly rebuilt temple at Jerusalem. The dispensationalist Anti-Christ or "Pig-Man,"  is predicted to enter the new temple with a pig under his arm to kill there.

But John in I John 2: 18 says "even now there are many anti-christs." And in I John 4: 3 John talks about the spirit of anti-christ and that even now it is already in the world. In the same verse he tells us that "every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God, and this is that spirit of anti-christ."

The spirit of Anti-Christ manifests itself as many Anti-Christs, not just one, although in the end times the Anti-Christs will become more widespread and more threatening.

The dispensationalists make a great deal of use of Daniel 9: 25-27, the Seventy Weeks prophecy, in saying that the dispensationalist Anti-Christ is to make a treaty with Israel during the last week and will cause the sacrifice to cease.

Here is the text of Daniel 9: 25-27; "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

There is no dispensationalist Anti-Christ in these verses. In verse 26 there are two men mentioned. One is Jesus Christ, the Messiah, and the other is the prince, who apparently is a Roman leader who is here predicted to destroy Jerusalem and the temple in 70 A.D. "He," then in verse 27 must refer either to Jesus Christ or the prince. The dispensationalists say "he" is their one man Anti-Christ. But "he" is Jesus Christ, who is predicted to confirm the covenant for many and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease. When Christ died on the Cross the system of animal sacrifice ceased.

While "he" in Daniel 9: 27 is Jesus Christ, separation theology says he is their one man Anti-Christ, reversing the scripture.

In Luke 17: 35-37  Christ says " I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."

"They" are Christ's disciples, who ask him where these people will be taken.  Some followers of separation theology say that those who are taken are raptured to be with Christ, and those not taken are left behind.

This same prophecy is found in Matthew 24: 40-41 "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 

The other part of the prophecy is in Matthew 24: 28 "For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together."

Body in Luke 17: 37 is from soma, but carcase in Matthew 24: 28 is from ptoma, dead body.  Those taken are taken to be killed.  Remember the prophecy of Deuteronomy 32:  36 "For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left."  There are at a certain point of time in the tribulation none left; they have all been killed. 

John 16: 2 says "They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service."

Luke 21: 16 says: "And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and
brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they
cause to be put to death." "Some" is not in the Textus Receptus, meaning that
not just "some" will be killed.

Matthew 24: 9-11 is part of end time prophecy: "Then
shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye
shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many
be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one
another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many."

With Luke 17: 34-37 and Matthew 24: 28, 40-41, about those taken and those left,
is reversed by separation theology, or by some of its followers.  Those taken are not
taken in the rapture, but are taken to be put to death on earth.





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Reversals of Scripture By Separation Theology
« on: Tue Dec 07, 2010 - 10:29:24 »

Offline Eagle

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Re: Reversals of Scripture By Separation Theology
« Reply #1 on: Tue Dec 07, 2010 - 11:37:11 »
halfback   Care to share a bit of your background? I would be interested to understand where you came from, How you thought 'outside' the box. 


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« Reply #1 on: Tue Dec 07, 2010 - 11:37:11 »

Offline lecoop

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Re: Reversals of Scripture By Separation Theology
« Reply #2 on: Tue Dec 07, 2010 - 12:22:04 »
Over the years God has poured out more and more revelation knowledge of the word of God. And communications are so much better than in Darby's day, we can actually find out what someone else's revelation is, on the other side of the planet!

So knowledge of the word has increased GREATLY since the days of Darby.
If he thought Rev. 12 has ANYTHING to do with the church, then he was confused on that point!

I have to work for a living, so more later...


Lyle


Offline lecoop

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Re: Reversals of Scripture By Separation Theology
« Reply #3 on: Tue Dec 07, 2010 - 12:28:26 »
What did God tell Abraham?

Genesis 17
7And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

 8And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

 9And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.

Genesis 48
 4And said unto me, Behold, I will make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, and I will make of thee a multitude of people; and will give this land to thy seed after thee for an everlasting possession.


Does anyone want to argue with God about the word everlasting?

Case closed. God will STILL bring this to pass!

Coop

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Re: Reversals of Scripture By Separation Theology
« Reply #3 on: Tue Dec 07, 2010 - 12:28:26 »

Saul 25

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Re: Reversals of Scripture By Separation Theology
« Reply #4 on: Tue Dec 07, 2010 - 18:04:30 »
Hi Halfback:  I completely agree with part of what you wrote and completely disagree with some other parts. You are certainly right about Darby and the false pre-trib rapture, however I do believe that the bible teaches an actual antichrist individual who will arise just before the return of Christ.

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Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Reversals of Scripture By Separation Theology
« Reply #5 on: Tue Dec 07, 2010 - 18:39:16 »
Could you unbold that, so I can read it without going blind?  ::lookaround::

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Re: Reversals of Scripture By Separation Theology
« Reply #6 on: Tue Dec 07, 2010 - 21:32:07 »
Quote
What did God tell Abraham?

Genesis 17
7And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

 8And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

 9And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.

Genesis 48
 4And said unto me, Behold, I will make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, and I will make of thee a multitude of people; and will give this land to thy seed after thee for an everlasting possession.


Does anyone want to argue with God about the word everlasting?

Case closed. God will STILL bring this to pass!

Coop

You forgot one.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.



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Re: Reversals of Scripture By Separation Theology
« Reply #7 on: Tue Dec 07, 2010 - 21:48:12 »
Very true, the promises to Abraham are fulfilled through those who have faith in Jesus Christ...that is an absolute truth.

Offline lecoop

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Re: Reversals of Scripture By Separation Theology
« Reply #8 on: Tue Dec 07, 2010 - 22:28:38 »
Quote
What did God tell Abraham?

Genesis 17
7And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

 8And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

 9And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.

Genesis 48
 4And said unto me, Behold, I will make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, and I will make of thee a multitude of people; and will give this land to thy seed after thee for an everlasting possession.


Does anyone want to argue with God about the word everlasting?

Case closed. God will STILL bring this to pass!

Coop

You forgot one.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Sorry, but we as the church have NEVER BEEN promised the Holy land! How silly is that?
We are promised the Holy Spirit!!  But, you are right, we are SPIRITUAL children of Abraham!

Coop

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Reversals of Scripture By Separation Theology
« Reply #9 on: Wed Dec 08, 2010 - 00:09:37 »
Coop,

It's not a matter of us inheriting ALL of everything God promised Abraham.

Rather, we play a part in God's fulfilling what He promised to Abraham: I will make you a father to many nations.

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Reversals of Scripture By Separation Theology
« Reply #10 on: Wed Dec 08, 2010 - 07:02:09 »
What did God tell Abraham?

Genesis 17
7And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

 8And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

 9And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.

Genesis 48
 4And said unto me, Behold, I will make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, and I will make of thee a multitude of people; and will give this land to thy seed after thee for an everlasting possession.


Does anyone want to argue with God about the word everlasting?

Case closed. God will STILL bring this to pass!

Coop

Deu 1:7  'Turn and set your journey, and go to the hill country of the Amorites, and to all their neighbors in the Arabah, in the hill country and in the lowland and in the Negev and by the seacoast, the land of the Canaanites, and Lebanon, as far as the great river, the river Euphrates.
Deu 1:8  'See, I have placed the land before you; go in and possess the land which the LORD swore to give to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to them and their descendants after them.'

Jos 21:43  So the LORD gave Israel all the land which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they possessed it and lived in it.
Jos 21:44  And the LORD gave them rest on every side, according to all that He had sworn to their fathers, and no one of all their enemies stood before them; the LORD gave all their enemies into their hand.

Jos 23:14  "Now behold, today I am going the way of all the earth, and you know in all your hearts and in all your souls that not one word of all the good words which the LORD your God spoke concerning you has failed; all have been fulfilled for you, not one of them has failed.

Jos 24:28  Then Joshua dismissed the people, each to his inheritance.

1Ki 4:21  Now Solomon ruled over all the kingdoms from the River to the land of the Philistines and to the border of Egypt; they brought tribute and served Solomon all the days of his life.
1Ki 4:22  And Solomon's provision for one day was thirty kors of fine flour and sixty kors of meal,
1Ki 4:23  ten fat oxen, twenty pasture-fed oxen, a hundred sheep besides deer, gazelles, roebucks, and fattened fowl.
1Ki 4:24  For he had dominion over everything west of the River, from Tiphsah even to Gaza, over all the kings west of the River; and he had peace on all sides around about him.
1Ki 4:25  So Judah and Israel lived in safety, every man under his vine and his fig tree, from Dan even to Beersheba, all the days of Solomon.

Neh 9:7  "Thou art the LORD God, Who chose Abram And brought him out from Ur of the Chaldees, And gave him the name Abraham.
Neh 9:8  "And Thou didst find his heart faithful before Thee, And didst make a covenant with him To give him the land of the Canaanite, Of the Hittite and the Amorite, Of the Perizzite, the Jebusite, and the Girgashite-- To give it to his descendants. And Thou hast fulfilled Thy promise, For Thou art righteous.


It is clear from God's own word that the promise that you speak of has been fulfilled.  I think that you need to do some study on the word everlasting [Hebrew - olam].

The following are things which in the OT which are said to be everlasting:

Ciricumcision, Gen 17:13; The Passover feast, Esod 12:24; 12:14,17; Sabbath observance, Exod 31:16-17; the Day of Atonement, Lev 16:29-31; the Aaronic priesthood, Exod 40:15; the priests' clothing, Exod 28:43; the priests' portion of the sacrifices, Exod 29:28; Lev 6:18; the priests' washings, Exod 30:21; the bread of the Presence, Lev 24:8; the candlestick, Exod 27:21; Solomon's temple, 1 Kings 8:13; 9:3; etc.

So then do we want to argue with God about the word everlasting?  No, but I will certainly argue with you about the Hebrew word olam.  It is clear that you are basing the establishment, in part at least, of a false notion of the end times on a very serious misinterpretation of the meaning of the Hebrew word olam.

Offline Eagle

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Re: Reversals of Scripture By Separation Theology
« Reply #11 on: Wed Dec 08, 2010 - 10:19:32 »
Coop   When the wind blows the sand from Israel to Iraq is it still holy?    
« Last Edit: Wed Dec 08, 2010 - 10:48:37 by Eagle »

Offline Eagle

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Re: Reversals of Scripture By Separation Theology
« Reply #12 on: Wed Dec 08, 2010 - 10:30:18 »
I am staying with my 18 year old Granddaughter She is a sweetheart but a drama queen! So i do not have my desk and info.

What Scofield did to scripture should be a crime. Our family has an early printing of the scofield bible. He was a real Elmer Grantry. 

I was raised on dispensationalism.  Cutting Gods Word up to fit mans theology.

  It has been a pleasure to read the thought provoking words of halfback.  Hope he sticks around.



The covenant with Abram was conditional. God always keeps His Word. man fails.

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Re: Reversals of Scripture By Separation Theology
« Reply #13 on: Wed Dec 08, 2010 - 18:51:32 »
What did God tell Abraham?

Genesis 17
7And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

 8And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

 9And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.

Genesis 48
 4And said unto me, Behold, I will make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, and I will make of thee a multitude of people; and will give this land to thy seed after thee for an everlasting possession.


Does anyone want to argue with God about the word everlasting?

Case closed. God will STILL bring this to pass!

Coop

Deu 1:7  'Turn and set your journey, and go to the hill country of the Amorites, and to all their neighbors in the Arabah, in the hill country and in the lowland and in the Negev and by the seacoast, the land of the Canaanites, and Lebanon, as far as the great river, the river Euphrates.
Deu 1:8  'See, I have placed the land before you; go in and possess the land which the LORD swore to give to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to them and their descendants after them.'

Jos 21:43  So the LORD gave Israel all the land which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they possessed it and lived in it.
Jos 21:44  And the LORD gave them rest on every side, according to all that He had sworn to their fathers, and no one of all their enemies stood before them; the LORD gave all their enemies into their hand.

Jos 23:14  "Now behold, today I am going the way of all the earth, and you know in all your hearts and in all your souls that not one word of all the good words which the LORD your God spoke concerning you has failed; all have been fulfilled for you, not one of them has failed.

Jos 24:28  Then Joshua dismissed the people, each to his inheritance.

1Ki 4:21  Now Solomon ruled over all the kingdoms from the River to the land of the Philistines and to the border of Egypt; they brought tribute and served Solomon all the days of his life.
1Ki 4:22  And Solomon's provision for one day was thirty kors of fine flour and sixty kors of meal,
1Ki 4:23  ten fat oxen, twenty pasture-fed oxen, a hundred sheep besides deer, gazelles, roebucks, and fattened fowl.
1Ki 4:24  For he had dominion over everything west of the River, from Tiphsah even to Gaza, over all the kings west of the River; and he had peace on all sides around about him.
1Ki 4:25  So Judah and Israel lived in safety, every man under his vine and his fig tree, from Dan even to Beersheba, all the days of Solomon.

Neh 9:7  "Thou art the LORD God, Who chose Abram And brought him out from Ur of the Chaldees, And gave him the name Abraham.
Neh 9:8  "And Thou didst find his heart faithful before Thee, And didst make a covenant with him To give him the land of the Canaanite, Of the Hittite and the Amorite, Of the Perizzite, the Jebusite, and the Girgashite-- To give it to his descendants. And Thou hast fulfilled Thy promise, For Thou art righteous.


It is clear from God's own word that the promise that you speak of has been fulfilled.  I think that you need to do some study on the word everlasting [Hebrew - olam].

The following are things which in the OT which are said to be everlasting:

Ciricumcision, Gen 17:13; The Passover feast, Esod 12:24; 12:14,17; Sabbath observance, Exod 31:16-17; the Day of Atonement, Lev 16:29-31; the Aaronic priesthood, Exod 40:15; the priests' clothing, Exod 28:43; the priests' portion of the sacrifices, Exod 29:28; Lev 6:18; the priests' washings, Exod 30:21; the bread of the Presence, Lev 24:8; the candlestick, Exod 27:21; Solomon's temple, 1 Kings 8:13; 9:3; etc.

So then do we want to argue with God about the word everlasting?  No, but I will certainly argue with you about the Hebrew word olam.  It is clear that you are basing the establishment, in part at least, of a false notion of the end times on a very serious misinterpretation of the meaning of the Hebrew word olam.

Did you ever read Ezek 47 and 48?

What? God was just dreaming here? 

Revelation 22:5
And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.


Perhaps God will change His mind here too? Maybe this too is only temporary.

Coop

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Re: Reversals of Scripture By Separation Theology
« Reply #14 on: Wed Dec 08, 2010 - 19:27:39 »
When was the last time the Israelis held the land God promised to Abram?  God keeps His deals

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Re: Reversals of Scripture By Separation Theology
« Reply #15 on: Wed Dec 08, 2010 - 20:14:16 »
When was the last time the Israelis held the land God promised to Abram?  God keeps His deals

They have held part of it since 1948. But soon I believe they will get more. And after the 70th week they will get it ALL!

Coop

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Re: Reversals of Scripture By Separation Theology
« Reply #16 on: Thu Dec 09, 2010 - 01:17:07 »
How can it be everlasting if they don't have it and have to 'get it back"?

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Reversals of Scripture By Separation Theology
« Reply #17 on: Thu Dec 09, 2010 - 06:14:38 »
When was the last time the Israelis held the land God promised to Abram?  God keeps His deals

They have held part of it since 1948. But soon I believe they will get more. And after the 70th week they will get it ALL!

Coop

The 70th week ended nearly 2000 years ago.  The 70th week of Daniel speaks of our savior Jesus Christ, not some future anti-Christ. 

(1) The first part (7 weeks) relates to the rebuilding of Jerusalem.
(2) The second part (62 weeks) takes up to the beginning of Christ’s earthly ministry.
(3) The third part (1 week) begins with the start of Christ’s public ministry (AD 27) and sees the crucifixion half way through it (AD 30), which is the start of the clock of natural Israel’s probationary opportunity (40 yrs) to accept or reject the Messiah’s message and once-all-sufficient atonement. The concluding 3 ½ yrs saw Israel’s wanton rejection of the once-all-sufficient atonement, the rebellious continuation of the now abolished order of Old Testament sacrifice (which is “the overspreading of abominations

Offline lecoop

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Re: Reversals of Scripture By Separation Theology
« Reply #18 on: Thu Dec 09, 2010 - 07:47:28 »
When was the last time the Israelis held the land God promised to Abram?  God keeps His deals

They have held part of it since 1948. But soon I believe they will get more. And after the 70th week they will get it ALL!

Coop

The 70th week ended nearly 2000 years ago.  The 70th week of Daniel speaks of our savior Jesus Christ, not some future anti-Christ. 


Readers BEWARE: this is total myth.  This doctrine must IGNORE the entire book of Revelation and much of Daniel.

Coop

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Reversals of Scripture By Separation Theology
« Reply #19 on: Thu Dec 09, 2010 - 08:02:13 »
When was the last time the Israelis held the land God promised to Abram?  God keeps His deals

They have held part of it since 1948. But soon I believe they will get more. And after the 70th week they will get it ALL!

Coop

The 70th week ended nearly 2000 years ago.  The 70th week of Daniel speaks of our savior Jesus Christ, not some future anti-Christ.  


Readers BEWARE: this is total myth.  This doctrine must IGNORE the entire book of Revelation and much of Daniel.

Coop

The only thing that it must ignore is the mythological interpretation you give to the entire book of Revelation and much of Daniel.  You have been reading too many left behind books by Lahaye.  His books like your interpretation of the end times makes for good science fiction novels.

Offline lecoop

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Re: Reversals of Scripture By Separation Theology
« Reply #20 on: Thu Dec 09, 2010 - 08:07:11 »
When was the last time the Israelis held the land God promised to Abram?  God keeps His deals

They have held part of it since 1948. But soon I believe they will get more. And after the 70th week they will get it ALL!

Coop

The 70th week ended nearly 2000 years ago.  The 70th week of Daniel speaks of our savior Jesus Christ, not some future anti-Christ.  


Readers BEWARE: this is total myth.  This doctrine must IGNORE the entire book of Revelation and much of Daniel.

Coop

The only thing that it must ignore is the mythological interpretation you give to the entire book of Revelation and much of Daniel.  You have been reading too many left behind books by Lahaye.  His books like your interpretation of the end times makes for good science fiction novels.


Sorry, I have never read even one of his books.

By the way, WHEN did the 6th trumpet happen, that killed 1/3 of earth's population?  (Not to mention the first 5!)  rofl ::noworries:: ::clappingoverhead::

This doctrine of devils is totally hilarious!! It makes a mockery of the scriptures.

Coop

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Reversals of Scripture By Separation Theology
« Reply #21 on: Thu Dec 09, 2010 - 08:10:23 »
When was the last time the Israelis held the land God promised to Abram?  God keeps His deals

They have held part of it since 1948. But soon I believe they will get more. And after the 70th week they will get it ALL!

Coop

The 70th week ended nearly 2000 years ago.  The 70th week of Daniel speaks of our savior Jesus Christ, not some future anti-Christ.  


Readers BEWARE: this is total myth.  This doctrine must IGNORE the entire book of Revelation and much of Daniel.

Coop

The only thing that it must ignore is the mythological interpretation you give to the entire book of Revelation and much of Daniel.  You have been reading too many left behind books by Lahaye.  His books like your interpretation of the end times makes for good science fiction novels.


Sorry, I have never read even one of his books.

By the way, WHEN did the 6th trumpet happen, that killed 1/3 of earth's population?  (Not to mention the first 5!)  rofl ::noworries:: ::clappingoverhead::

This doctrine of devils is totally hilarious!! It makes a mockery of the scriptures.

Coop

The mockery is that you attribute to the anti-Christ what has clearly been accomplished already by Christ.  That in fact is much worse than simple mockery, but that is a different issue altogether.

By the way, so far as I am concerned, the 6th trumpet is yet to happen.

Offline lecoop

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Re: Reversals of Scripture By Separation Theology
« Reply #22 on: Thu Dec 09, 2010 - 08:22:15 »
When was the last time the Israelis held the land God promised to Abram?  God keeps His deals

They have held part of it since 1948. But soon I believe they will get more. And after the 70th week they will get it ALL!

Coop

The 70th week ended nearly 2000 years ago.  The 70th week of Daniel speaks of our savior Jesus Christ, not some future anti-Christ.  


Readers BEWARE: this is total myth.  This doctrine must IGNORE the entire book of Revelation and much of Daniel.

Coop

The only thing that it must ignore is the mythological interpretation you give to the entire book of Revelation and much of Daniel.  You have been reading too many left behind books by Lahaye.  His books like your interpretation of the end times makes for good science fiction novels.


Sorry, I have never read even one of his books.

By the way, WHEN did the 6th trumpet happen, that killed 1/3 of earth's population?  (Not to mention the first 5!)  rofl ::noworries:: ::clappingoverhead::

This doctrine of devils is totally hilarious!! It makes a mockery of the scriptures.

Coop

The mockery is that you attribute to the anti-Christ what has clearly been accomplished already by Christ.  That in fact is much worse than simple mockery, but that is a different issue altogether.

By the way, so far as I am concerned, the 6th trumpet is yet to happen.

Just so you will know, the trumpets will come during the first half of the 70th week that you deny.

Coop

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Reversals of Scripture By Separation Theology
« Reply #23 on: Thu Dec 09, 2010 - 08:25:06 »
When was the last time the Israelis held the land God promised to Abram?  God keeps His deals

They have held part of it since 1948. But soon I believe they will get more. And after the 70th week they will get it ALL!

Coop

The 70th week ended nearly 2000 years ago.  The 70th week of Daniel speaks of our savior Jesus Christ, not some future anti-Christ.  


Readers BEWARE: this is total myth.  This doctrine must IGNORE the entire book of Revelation and much of Daniel.

Coop

The only thing that it must ignore is the mythological interpretation you give to the entire book of Revelation and much of Daniel.  You have been reading too many left behind books by Lahaye.  His books like your interpretation of the end times makes for good science fiction novels.


Sorry, I have never read even one of his books.

By the way, WHEN did the 6th trumpet happen, that killed 1/3 of earth's population?  (Not to mention the first 5!)  rofl ::noworries:: ::clappingoverhead::

This doctrine of devils is totally hilarious!! It makes a mockery of the scriptures.

Coop

The mockery is that you attribute to the anti-Christ what has clearly been accomplished already by Christ.  That in fact is much worse than simple mockery, but that is a different issue altogether.

By the way, so far as I am concerned, the 6th trumpet is yet to happen.

Just so you will know, the trumpets will come during the first half of the 70th week that you deny.

Coop

I don't deny the 70th week.  Just so you will know, it follows directly the 69th week, just as any reasonable interpretation of the prophecy would demand.

Offline lecoop

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Re: Reversals of Scripture By Separation Theology
« Reply #24 on: Thu Dec 09, 2010 - 08:27:41 »
When was the last time the Israelis held the land God promised to Abram?  God keeps His deals

They have held part of it since 1948. But soon I believe they will get more. And after the 70th week they will get it ALL!

Coop

The 70th week ended nearly 2000 years ago.  The 70th week of Daniel speaks of our savior Jesus Christ, not some future anti-Christ.  


Readers BEWARE: this is total myth.  This doctrine must IGNORE the entire book of Revelation and much of Daniel.

Coop

The only thing that it must ignore is the mythological interpretation you give to the entire book of Revelation and much of Daniel.  You have been reading too many left behind books by Lahaye.  His books like your interpretation of the end times makes for good science fiction novels.


Sorry, I have never read even one of his books.

By the way, WHEN did the 6th trumpet happen, that killed 1/3 of earth's population?  (Not to mention the first 5!)  rofl ::noworries:: ::clappingoverhead::

This doctrine of devils is totally hilarious!! It makes a mockery of the scriptures.

Coop

The mockery is that you attribute to the anti-Christ what has clearly been accomplished already by Christ.  That in fact is much worse than simple mockery, but that is a different issue altogether.

By the way, so far as I am concerned, the 6th trumpet is yet to happen.

Just so you will know, the trumpets will come during the first half of the 70th week that you deny.

Coop

I don't deny the 70th week.  Just so you will know, it follows directly the 69th week, just as any reasonable interpretation of the prophecy would demand.

You are free to believe that - but the book of Revelation will disagree with you. John tells us exactly how long the second half of the week is FIVE DIFFERENT TIMES, in days, in months and in years.  Where there is a second have, there MUST BE a first half. And it is there too.

Coop

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Reversals of Scripture By Separation Theology
« Reply #25 on: Thu Dec 09, 2010 - 08:52:05 »
When was the last time the Israelis held the land God promised to Abram?  God keeps His deals

They have held part of it since 1948. But soon I believe they will get more. And after the 70th week they will get it ALL!

Coop

The 70th week ended nearly 2000 years ago.  The 70th week of Daniel speaks of our savior Jesus Christ, not some future anti-Christ.  


Readers BEWARE: this is total myth.  This doctrine must IGNORE the entire book of Revelation and much of Daniel.

Coop

The only thing that it must ignore is the mythological interpretation you give to the entire book of Revelation and much of Daniel.  You have been reading too many left behind books by Lahaye.  His books like your interpretation of the end times makes for good science fiction novels.


Sorry, I have never read even one of his books.

By the way, WHEN did the 6th trumpet happen, that killed 1/3 of earth's population?  (Not to mention the first 5!)  rofl ::noworries:: ::clappingoverhead::

This doctrine of devils is totally hilarious!! It makes a mockery of the scriptures.

Coop

The mockery is that you attribute to the anti-Christ what has clearly been accomplished already by Christ.  That in fact is much worse than simple mockery, but that is a different issue altogether.

By the way, so far as I am concerned, the 6th trumpet is yet to happen.

Just so you will know, the trumpets will come during the first half of the 70th week that you deny.

Coop

I don't deny the 70th week.  Just so you will know, it follows directly the 69th week, just as any reasonable interpretation of the prophecy would demand.

You are free to believe that - but the book of Revelation will disagree with you. John tells us exactly how long the second half of the week is FIVE DIFFERENT TIMES, in days, in months and in years.  Where there is a second have, there MUST BE a first half. And it is there too.

Coop

The book of Revelation never says one word about the 70th week.

Offline Eagle

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Re: Reversals of Scripture By Separation Theology
« Reply #26 on: Thu Dec 09, 2010 - 09:22:38 »
Amen Jimmy,   God doesn't doesn't have "Thee Antichrist" in The Revelation.
  Reads to me like the the revelation is the REVELATION OF CHRIST!

Offline fish153

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Re: Reversals of Scripture By Separation Theology
« Reply #27 on: Thu Dec 09, 2010 - 14:05:57 »
When was the last time the Israelis held the land God promised to Abram?  God keeps His deals

They have held part of it since 1948. But soon I believe they will get more. And after the 70th week they will get it ALL!

Coop

The 70th week ended nearly 2000 years ago.  The 70th week of Daniel speaks of our savior Jesus Christ, not some future anti-Christ. 


Readers BEWARE: this is total myth.  This doctrine must IGNORE the entire book of Revelation and much of Daniel.

Coop

Coop----

You're absolutely correct.  The 70th week did not happen 2000 years ago.  It is yet future.  And the re-gathering of Israel (1948) is a sign to us that God's time-clock for the Jews (the 70th week) is soon to start ticking again---when the church age comes to an end.  The space between the 69th and 70th weeks is the "church age", and is the "mystery" Paul speaks of frequently.

God temporarily set aside his dealings with Israel as a nation to allow millions to be saved as the "church". When the church age ends, and the church is "removed" the 70th week will begin shortly thereafter.

Offline Eagle

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Re: Reversals of Scripture By Separation Theology
« Reply #28 on: Thu Dec 09, 2010 - 15:27:41 »
The Cross was not a second thought. The plan of salvation was from the beginning.

Offline lecoop

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Re: Reversals of Scripture By Separation Theology
« Reply #29 on: Thu Dec 09, 2010 - 17:05:03 »
When was the last time the Israelis held the land God promised to Abram?  God keeps His deals

They have held part of it since 1948. But soon I believe they will get more. And after the 70th week they will get it ALL!

Coop

The 70th week ended nearly 2000 years ago.  The 70th week of Daniel speaks of our savior Jesus Christ, not some future anti-Christ.  


Readers BEWARE: this is total myth.  This doctrine must IGNORE the entire book of Revelation and much of Daniel.

Coop

The only thing that it must ignore is the mythological interpretation you give to the entire book of Revelation and much of Daniel.  You have been reading too many left behind books by Lahaye.  His books like your interpretation of the end times makes for good science fiction novels.


Sorry, I have never read even one of his books.

By the way, WHEN did the 6th trumpet happen, that killed 1/3 of earth's population?  (Not to mention the first 5!)  rofl ::noworries:: ::clappingoverhead::

This doctrine of devils is totally hilarious!! It makes a mockery of the scriptures.

Coop

The mockery is that you attribute to the anti-Christ what has clearly been accomplished already by Christ.  That in fact is much worse than simple mockery, but that is a different issue altogether.

By the way, so far as I am concerned, the 6th trumpet is yet to happen.

Just so you will know, the trumpets will come during the first half of the 70th week that you deny.

Coop

I don't deny the 70th week.  Just so you will know, it follows directly the 69th week, just as any reasonable interpretation of the prophecy would demand.

You are free to believe that - but the book of Revelation will disagree with you. John tells us exactly how long the second half of the week is FIVE DIFFERENT TIMES, in days, in months and in years.  Where there is a second have, there MUST BE a first half. And it is there too.

Coop

The book of Revelation never says one word about the 70th week.

Oh Yes! It is only a coincidence that 1260 days doubled is 7 years. Even more of a coincidence that 42 months doubled is 7 years. And even more that 3.5 years doubled is 7 years.

More like a coinciGOD.

Coop

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Reversals of Scripture By Separation Theology
« Reply #30 on: Thu Dec 09, 2010 - 17:12:44 »
When was the last time the Israelis held the land God promised to Abram?  God keeps His deals

They have held part of it since 1948. But soon I believe they will get more. And after the 70th week they will get it ALL!

Coop

The 70th week ended nearly 2000 years ago.  The 70th week of Daniel speaks of our savior Jesus Christ, not some future anti-Christ. 


Readers BEWARE: this is total myth.  This doctrine must IGNORE the entire book of Revelation and much of Daniel.

Coop

Coop----

You're absolutely correct.  The 70th week did not happen 2000 years ago.  It is yet future.  And the re-gathering of Israel (1948) is a sign to us that God's time-clock for the Jews (the 70th week) is soon to start ticking again---when the church age comes to an end.  The space between the 69th and 70th weeks is the "church age", and is the "mystery" Paul speaks of frequently.

God temporarily set aside his dealings with Israel as a nation to allow millions to be saved as the "church". When the church age ends, and the church is "removed" the 70th week will begin shortly thereafter.

The 70th week for the Jews began when Jesus began His ministry to the Jews.  On the day of Pentecost 3000 of them converted (Acts 2:41).  Sometime later Luke records 5000, not including women, were added to the Church.  The Church was composed of nearly 100% Jews until Peter's meeting with Cornelius.  From that time on, the Church was Jew and Gentile.  The distinction was set aside.  It was made null and void.  There is no difference (Gal 3:28).  The Church is the bride of Christ.  There is not another gospel.  There is not another bride.  The bride is the Church, Jew and Gentile.  The Jew, even today, has the same opportunity to become a member of the body of Christ just as does the Gentile.

When the Church is "removed", then comes the judgement.  The idea of a "gap" between the 69th and 70th week is just so much hog wash.  It is a terrible distortion of the word of God.

Offline lecoop

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Re: Reversals of Scripture By Separation Theology
« Reply #31 on: Thu Dec 09, 2010 - 17:25:38 »
When was the last time the Israelis held the land God promised to Abram?  God keeps His deals

They have held part of it since 1948. But soon I believe they will get more. And after the 70th week they will get it ALL!

Coop

The 70th week ended nearly 2000 years ago.  The 70th week of Daniel speaks of our savior Jesus Christ, not some future anti-Christ. 


Readers BEWARE: this is total myth.  This doctrine must IGNORE the entire book of Revelation and much of Daniel.

Coop

Coop----

You're absolutely correct.  The 70th week did not happen 2000 years ago.  It is yet future.  And the re-gathering of Israel (1948) is a sign to us that God's time-clock for the Jews (the 70th week) is soon to start ticking again---when the church age comes to an end.  The space between the 69th and 70th weeks is the "church age", and is the "mystery" Paul speaks of frequently.

God temporarily set aside his dealings with Israel as a nation to allow millions to be saved as the "church". When the church age ends, and the church is "removed" the 70th week will begin shortly thereafter.

The 70th week for the Jews began when Jesus began His ministry to the Jews.  On the day of Pentecost 3000 of them converted (Acts 2:41).  Sometime later Luke records 5000, not including women, were added to the Church.  The Church was composed of nearly 100% Jews until Peter's meeting with Cornelius.  From that time on, the Church was Jew and Gentile.  The distinction was set aside.  It was made null and void.  There is no difference (Gal 3:28).  The Church is the bride of Christ.  There is not another gospel.  There is not another bride.  The bride is the Church, Jew and Gentile.  The Jew, even today, has the same opportunity to become a member of the body of Christ just as does the Gentile.

When the Church is "removed", then comes the judgement.  The idea of a "gap" between the 69th and 70th week is just so much hog wash.  It is a terrible distortion of the word of God.

Sorry, but God BELIEVES in the gap theory!!  The 70th week is a continuation of the final week (7 years) of the law. Why would God do this? Out of love. Many Jews love God as much as we do. But they are confused. When they see the one they pierced, THEN they will believe. But they will have to go through 7 years of hell on earth to get there.

Coop

Offline fish153

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Re: Reversals of Scripture By Separation Theology
« Reply #32 on: Thu Dec 09, 2010 - 18:28:44 »
When was the last time the Israelis held the land God promised to Abram?  God keeps His deals

They have held part of it since 1948. But soon I believe they will get more. And after the 70th week they will get it ALL!

Coop

The 70th week ended nearly 2000 years ago.  The 70th week of Daniel speaks of our savior Jesus Christ, not some future anti-Christ.  


Readers BEWARE: this is total myth.  This doctrine must IGNORE the entire book of Revelation and much of Daniel.

Coop

Coop----

You're absolutely correct.  The 70th week did not happen 2000 years ago.  It is yet future.  And the re-gathering of Israel (1948) is a sign to us that God's time-clock for the Jews (the 70th week) is soon to start ticking again---when the church age comes to an end.  The space between the 69th and 70th weeks is the "church age", and is the "mystery" Paul speaks of frequently.

God temporarily set aside his dealings with Israel as a nation to allow millions to be saved as the "church". When the church age ends, and the church is "removed" the 70th week will begin shortly thereafter.

The 70th week for the Jews began when Jesus began His ministry to the Jews.  On the day of Pentecost 3000 of them converted (Acts 2:41).  Sometime later Luke records 5000, not including women, were added to the Church.  The Church was composed of nearly 100% Jews until Peter's meeting with Cornelius.  From that time on, the Church was Jew and Gentile.  The distinction was set aside.  It was made null and void.  There is no difference (Gal 3:28).  The Church is the bride of Christ.  There is not another gospel.  There is not another bride.  The bride is the Church, Jew and Gentile.  The Jew, even today, has the same opportunity to become a member of the body of Christ just as does the Gentile.

When the Church is "removed", then comes the judgement.  The idea of a "gap" between the 69th and 70th week is just so much hog wash.  It is a terrible distortion of the word of God.

Jimmy---

Then you do not understand prophecy at all, or what God says in the Old Testament regarding the Jews.  God has a Heavenly people---the church---and an earthly people----the Jews.  There is a prophecy which speaks of the nation of Israel---the whole nation--"being converted in one day".

This will happen when Jesus returns at the end of the Tribulation period (the 70th week of Daniel). We see the nation of Israel in place already---they are in unbelief at this time----but there will come a day when God will deal directly with them once again and the whole nation will turn to Him at one time---GOD PROMISES THIS WILL HAPPEN IN THE OT.

You are quite the scoffer Jimmy----you should read Psalm 1 "Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor stands in the way of sinners, or sits in the seat of the scornful"

You have a habit of calling a lot of what YOU don't subscribe to HOGWASH, etc---you need to learn to carefully read the Bible---and also to be instructed by others---something you refuse to do.  You continue to have a condescending attitude to all who disagree with you----I find it to be quite sad.

Offline fish153

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Re: Reversals of Scripture By Separation Theology
« Reply #33 on: Thu Dec 09, 2010 - 18:38:32 »
Jimmy--

To add to the thought----you also don't understand the different groups of believers the Bible describes.  The CHURCH is being taken out of the world at this point in time---it consists of Jews and Gentiles.

When the Church Age ends the CHURCH will he complete as a "body".  The Tribulation period will then begin.  Then many will be martyred and appear before the throne as those who "came out of Great Tribulation". They are not THE CHURCH---they are not worth less than the church--but they are not part of the Church---they are a separate body of believers----they constitute the "friends of the Bridegroom"---they are not part of the Bride, which is the church.

They are no less important----but they play a DIFFERENT ROLE. If you don't understand these things no wonder you scoff.

Saul 25

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Re: Reversals of Scripture By Separation Theology
« Reply #34 on: Thu Dec 09, 2010 - 18:51:20 »
I agree with your basic idea, however you are trying to work a pre-trib rapture into it and there is no such thing as a pre-trib rapture, sorry but pre-trib is a false doctrine based on denial,manipulation, and bold assertions that have no real scripture to back them up.