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Offline LaSpino3

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Taken, or not?
« on: Tue Dec 12, 2017 - 17:55:38 »
In this post, I will take one side of the argument which is, if the Christian church goes into the tribulation what are they to expect? In part 2, I will cover the events that will occur to Christian’s when removed first, then the tribulation follows.   

Part 1 will cover the church when it goes into the tribulation.  In the following verses we can get a glimpse of what is to be expected.

Matt.24.9-21:22, “Then shall they (the enemy) deliver you (the elect, Jew and Gentile believers) to be afflicted and shall kill you: and you shall be hated of all nations for my (Jesus) name’s sake.” ----- Ver.21-22, “For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be (again.) --- And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake (the bride of Christ) those days shall be shortened.”

Both the Jews, and the Christian church will have to endure tribulation by every evil force that stands with the beasts described in the book of Revelation. Both groups will be hated by all the world, then every form of torture will be used, with a cruel death to follow. For those who are alive when tribulation begins, there will be a violence against men, women and children of the faith greater than any time since the beginning of time. 

I would like to examine the part where it read, “tribulation greater than ever before in man’s history.” So, let’s let all the line out on this one. We would have to include the tortures of the ancient Persians, secular Rome, the Catholic inquisitions; those of Nazi Germany; of Stalin’s gulags, of Islam; and the Indian tribes of North America like the apache, and Comaneci Indians.

Inquisitions and torture will come first, then death by beheading will follow. Remember, the 1st and 2ed beasts of Revelation, will have 7 years to fulfill their plans of destruction against believers. Keep in mind, death never comes quickly as history often reveals concerning these animals. Their sadistic nature of torture will most likely last for months or even years before they break you down, make you beg for mercy, give you the mark 666, then kill you anyway.

I will cover the repressions and tortures that will come to those who stand against the religion of the beast. Any opposition to them will be considered heresy, punishable by any and all means until death.

From the beginning of the beast’s political and religious system, people will be warned, new laws established, repression will be a way of life, physical and mental punishment for any dissent from their decrees. Also, all material such as Bibles, and books associated with Christian or Jewish thinking will be destroyed. Civil tribunal’s established, lead by Judges bent on quick convictions with no justice considered. Any actions or words against the new state, will be considered dangerous and that person or persons sent away to be examined much closer.

Some of the methods used to extract information before putting Christians and Jews to death will be as follows. Remember, scriptures say it will be worse than anything that has ever been before.

Let’s start with the rape of every female young and old. Also in order to extract confessions, they will most likely use proven methods of extracting, not the truth, but what they want you to say.

Let’s begin with, sleep deprivation; possibly severe disfigurement; pharmacological torture; water torture; music torture; waterboarding; severe beatings; blinding with light; boiling; freezing, bone breaking with clubs; castration; cattle prodding, skinning alive: pulling nails out of your hands and feet; eaten by rats of some other wild beasts or dogs; etc. etc. etc. Let me stop there, I guess we all get the picture. This will not be a game, it will be horrific as millions upon millions are offered up to the beast of Revelation.

Keep in mind, all the above can be avoided if you take the mark of the beast, that dark number, 666. But if you do, then you will have to go before the Lord after the 1000 Year reign is over, see Rev.20:5 --- 20.

I wonder how many could withstand any of the above without breaking down your spirit?

Laspino3



Part 2, the church is caught up before the 7 years of tribulation begins.

Here’s the set up. Jesus is speaking to his disciples on the Mt. of Olives. They had asked him two questions concerning his return to set up the promised Jewish earthly kingdom, and when will He become the King over the Kingdom of the Jews.
 
At this point, as they spoke on the Mt. of Olives, the Jews were still under law, and having been offenders of the law for over 450 years, God was not with them anyway. For over 400 Years, there had been no Levitical priesthood as ordered by God, only political and religious appointees. In the Temple, there was no Ark of the Covenant, no mercy seat and no eternal flame.

Most important, God had abandoned them, the Temple, their sacrifices and offerings were in vain. As Jesus was speaking on the Mt. of Olives, Saul (Paul) was an enemy of the Jewish believers. Also, there were no Gentile Christians except for two or three, and no Holy Spirit.

Matt.24.9-21:22, “Then shall they (Christ’s enemies) deliver you (unbelieving Jews) to be afflicted and shall kill you: and you shall be hated of all nations (which they are today) for my (Jesus) name’s sake.” ----- Ver.21-22, “For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be (again.) --- And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake (Jews who during the tribulation call out to Christ) those days shall be shortened.”

So, what happens to the church when taken up to meet the Lord in the air one second before the tribulation begins?

Answer: They will be given garments white as snow; they will be given bodies that are incorruptible, and immortal, taken before the Father’s throne, and will live in a place Paul said, was beyond description.

As for me, I’ll take number 2.
LaSpino3

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Taken, or not?
« on: Tue Dec 12, 2017 - 17:55:38 »

Offline Jaime

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Re: Taken, or not?
« Reply #1 on: Tue Dec 12, 2017 - 18:46:24 »
Phil, what is your opinion of Mathew 24 verse 30 I think that says immediately after the Tribulation of those days (the greatest tribulation of all times), the elect will be gathered. That sounds like a post tribulation rapture, but I assume there is an alternative explanation.

Anyone would prefer option 1, if it’s up to us. In my view, the quantity of atrocities will be greater in the tribulation, but individually nothing can be done to an individual that has not already happened to individual Christians by the millions. Horrible death by tortue, dismemberment and slow death has been suffered in the past by countless Christians for their faith. There was no “escape” for them. Especially in other countries like China and the Middle East. In my opinion God will not allow Christians to suffer the SECOND death, no matter how horrible the first death might be.
« Last Edit: Tue Dec 12, 2017 - 21:24:17 by Jaime »

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Re: Taken, or not?
« Reply #1 on: Tue Dec 12, 2017 - 18:46:24 »

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Re: Taken, or not?
« Reply #2 on: Wed Dec 13, 2017 - 06:00:44 »
There are Christians present on earth during the tribulation.  That is proof enough that the pre-tribulation rapture will not occur.

The Bible is clear that once the Groom returns for his Bride, it is too late for anyone who is not ready at that time. 

Once the rapture occurs, there will be no more salvation.

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Taken, or not?
« Reply #3 on: Wed Dec 13, 2017 - 13:25:13 »
Jaime: you asked the question, "Phil, what is your opinion of Mathew 24 verse 30 I think that says immediately after the Tribulation of those days (the greatest tribulation of all times), the elect will be gathered. That sounds like a post tribulation rapture, but I assume there is an alternative explanation.

Matt.24:30, "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they (the tribes) shall see the Son of man (Jesus) coming in the clouds of heaven (He returns the way he left in Acts 1:9-10) with power (authority) and great glory. Ver.31, "And He (Jesus) shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they (the angels) shall gather together his elect (chosen ones) from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other." 

We both agree that this will be at the end of the 7 years of tribulation. So, who are these elect?

But first we have to ask the questions, Who is Jesus speaking to, and what subject matter does it concern?

Jesus is speaking to his 3 disciples on the Mt. of Olives concerning,

1. "What will be the sign of his (Jesus) coming," 
2. "And of the end of the world (Jewish age)?"  Jesus then for the next 47 verses answers the two questions.

Only the Jews required a sign, therefore the questions concern the Jews only. In order to observe the sign of Jesus coming at the end of the tribulation, certain elect Jews have to be alive in order to observe visually his return. So, who are these saints that see Jesus return?

The answer is given in Rev.7 and 14. In Rev.7 before the tribulation begins, one of the angels declares, "Hurt not the earth, sea, trees until the servants of God are sealed with Gods mark.

After these 144,000 are sealed, the tribulation begins. Obviously these 144,000 will not be hurt during the tribulation, because we see then again in Rev.14. Jesus is standing on Mt. Zion, and with him are the 144,000. Rev.14:3, "These were redeemed from the earth." Redeemed here means to have been bought back with a full price paid.

These must be the elect, chosen ones, or saints because they are seen with the Lord at the end of the tribulation. Also in order to be with Christ after, they must be pure and Holy, saints. These 144,000, will "Follow the Lamb wherever he goes, --- they are the FIRST FRUIT (of the resurrection) unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no deceit: for they are without fault before the throne of God (in heaven;).

Personally, I have always felt that these 144,000 were the Old Testament Jews that were raised (the first fruit unto Christ) in Matt.27:52-53, "And the graves were opened: and many bodies of the saints which slept (had died) arose (were made alive again in body and spirit.) And (those raised from the dead) came out of the graves after his (Jesus) resurrection, and went out into the holy city (Jerusalem) and appeared (were witnessed) by many." Of course these last comments are for another discussion and for another time.

I base the above on the the teaching "It is appointed unto men once to die and then the judgement." Where these who were raised from the dead have been for the past 2000 years is an interesting question. There are only two places possible, here on earth, or in heaven. I can find no scripture that tells us anyone went up with the Lord when he ascended into heaven, but we cannot say these saints with their new incorruptible, immortal bodies were able to come and go from earth to heaven even as the Lord himself can.

Well, that's my response to your question,
Phil

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Re: Taken, or not?
« Reply #3 on: Wed Dec 13, 2017 - 13:25:13 »
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Offline notreligus

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Re: Taken, or not?
« Reply #4 on: Wed Dec 13, 2017 - 14:14:27 »
The thoughts presented in this thread are hybrid views, and these hybrid views just don't make sense to most people so they don't even attempt to comment in this End Time forum.   They are hybrids because they attempt to declare the Book of Revelation to be about both the Church and about Israel. That's why no posters here at this forum can ever reach a consensus about the meaning of the Book of Revelation.  The authentic Dispensational view is that the Book of Revelation is about Israel alone and how God will once again turn to the Jews and deal with them.   

If we have a mindset that the Book of Revelation is only about the Church and how the Church must be on the Earth to suffer the wrath of God along with God's wrath being poured out upon those who have rejected Him, most of us eventually conclude that God would not have reconciled mankind only to turn His wrath against a reconciled mankind.   God's wrath was borne by His Son.   Before the foundation of the world God envisioned the Church.    His desire has always been to have a people who served Him and loved Him, not to have a people for which He has reserved nothing but wrath.   

If we have a mindset that the Book of Revelation is only about Israel and how God will turn back to dealing with Israel alone, those who understand what Christ accomplished on the cross, along with believing what the Apostle Paul said that in Christ there is no distinction between Jew or Gentile, then we must say that what Paul has said is a lie and God Almighty never envisioned the Church before the foundation of the world but always desired to have two separate people with two separate plans to reconcile them to Him.     The Dispensationals would tell us that Israel will receive her earthly blessings and the Church will receive her heavenly blessings.   This ultimately confuses anyone who has a basic understanding of what Christ accomplished on the cross.   They are told by the Dispensationals that the offspring of Abraham is Israel and they are also told that Israel and the Church are two separate people with whom God deals separately.    Again, Paul and God are put into the position of being liars.   God is not a man that He can lie, and if Paul's epistles are wrong then God has still never received a sacrifice that is completely acceptable to Him, and we are all still under a Mitzvot, trying to keep God happy by our works.   

If Christians would see the Bible as a complete Book from beginning to end, with Christ as the focus and God having one eternal purpose in mind, we might begin to understand Who Christ is, What He did, and Why He did it. And, then we might stop trying to apply so many possible scenarios to the Book of Revelation that most Christians don't even want to go near the Book because they've been told so many possible interpretations that they can't make heads of tails of the Book.   

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Re: Taken, or not?
« Reply #4 on: Wed Dec 13, 2017 - 14:14:27 »



Offline Jaime

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Re: Taken, or not?
« Reply #5 on: Wed Dec 13, 2017 - 14:23:42 »
Phil, to me God’s final wrath is separate from the antiChrist’s wrath. Many Christians have already suffered at the hand of an antiChrist. Not to mention the tribulation martyrs that were under the altar crying out for God to avenge their suffering. Again, God hasn’t been about sparing suffering in this world. He has offered an escape from the second death, regardless of the viciousness of the first death.
« Last Edit: Wed Dec 13, 2017 - 15:05:10 by Jaime »

Offline Jaime

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Re: Taken, or not?
« Reply #6 on: Wed Dec 13, 2017 - 15:08:09 »
Good thoughts NR. My philosophy is be ready for Christ’s return pre, mid or post tribulation.

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Re: Taken, or not?
« Reply #7 on: Wed Dec 13, 2017 - 16:51:28 »
Unfortunately the words rapture and tribulation, like far too many other words have taken on meanings beyond that which is actually presented in the Bible.  The meanings attached to them are almost wholly dependent upon the particular view that is held relative to the one doing the posting. That makes it virtually impossible to discuss the subject logically.  It is much akin to words like quicken, predestination, foreknowledge, tongues, prophecy, creation, grace, priest, elder, bishop and so many more.  We have also seen it recently in the word faith.  Such words become almost a religion unto themselves.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Taken, or not?
« Reply #8 on: Fri Dec 15, 2017 - 17:40:19 »
Unfortunately the words rapture and tribulation, like far too many other words have taken on meanings beyond that which is actually presented in the Bible.  The meanings attached to them are almost wholly dependent upon the particular view that is held relative to the one doing the posting. That makes it virtually impossible to discuss the subject logically.  It is much akin to words like quicken, predestination, foreknowledge, tongues, prophecy, creation, grace, priest, elder, bishop and so many more.  We have also seen it recently in the word faith.  Such words become almost a religion unto themselves.
I agree - they have all become jargon.

 

     
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