robycop3~Who is the Antichrist?

[RB]

In another thread:

I would love to debate you one on one concerning the man of sin, that's prophesied to come~that is....IN GREAT NUMBERS just before the coming of Jesus Christ. I'll start the debate in a separate thread just for me and you if you would come.

And you said back:

  Sure ! Just name the forum & name of your thread ! And prepare to lose !

Okay~Who is the Antichrist?

Before we get started, maybe we should FIRST determine which come FIRST, Christ's second coming to gather together his people~OR, does the antichrist comes first? Miss it here and it is impossible to have the correct interpretation concerning WHO is the antichrist.

I say that God's word is very clear as to WHO comes FIRST, and it is the antichrist, then Jesus' second coming for his CHURCH comes second. What saith thou? Pretty sure you will be in the hole after even the first question is answered according to the word of God.

The Premillennialism camp cannot even clear this first hurdle without falling.

I'll wait for your answer so we can begin answering the thread's question.

[robycop3]

In another thread: And you said back: Okay~Who is the Antichrist?

Before we get started, maybe we should FIRST determine which come FIRST, Christ's second coming to gather together his people~OR, does the antichrist comes first? Miss it here and it is impossible to have the correct interpretation concerning WHO is the antichrist.

I say that God's word is very clear as to WHO comes FIRST, and it is the antichrist, then Jesus' second coming for his CHURCH comes second. What saith thou? Pretty sure you will be in the hole after even the first question is answered according to the word of God.

The Premillennialism camp cannot even clear this first hurdle without falling.

I'll wait for your answer so we can begin answering the thread's question.

Scripture is very clear that THE BEAST/ANTICHRIST SHALL COME BEFORE JESUS RETURNS. Among other reasons, it'd be impossible for Jesus to cast the AC & FP alive into the LOF if they weren't already here. And I believe the rapture will occur shortly before the AC comes to power, & the great trib begins.

[RB]

Scripture is very clear that THE BEAST/ANTICHRIST SHALL COME BEFORE JESUS RETURNS. Among other reasons, it'd be impossible for Jesus to cast the AC & FP alive into the LOF if they weren't already here. And I believe the rapture will occur shortly before the AC comes to power, & the great trib begins.

It would be nice for you to give a timeline of events to make it very clear as to what you do believe especially so in light of your discombobulated confession is not according to Paul's teaching. 

The Antichrist shall come to POWER first BEFORE Christ returns for his church~the resurrection of believers and Christ's coming and the end of the world are ALL ONE EVENT that shall take place on the last day.

2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3~"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

So, The man of sin comes to POWER first~then later (no man knows the time period of the man of sin reigning within the temple of God, or the apostate churches of the last days, it is hidden from us) Christ comes to gather together his elect from the four winds of heaven, per Matthew 24; Revelation 20:9.....

And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

The camp of the saints is the NT church being persecuted by the antichristian kingdom of this world.

The great tribulation is a period of the reign of the man of sin within the apostates churches of the last days, yet not limited to them but ALL men who have pleasure in unrighteousness and who hates God and his people. These sons of perdition make war against heaven and Him that sitteth and rules therein. 

The rapture takes place on the LAST DAY at the LAST trump when time shall be no more.

1st Corinthians 15:51,52~ "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

The LAST trump is the seventh and final trumpet of Revelation~there are NO MORE after the last trump. LAST means LAST.

There is no such doctrine as a SECRET rapture of the church, and then seven years of tribulation and then a 1000 year reign on this PRESENT earth. Those false doctrines cannot be supported with God's word.

But, for now, let us turn our focus on WHO IS THE ANTICHRIST. I'll post the first post on this and you can follow up with your own. 

Who is the Antichrist?~ Who is the man of sin? I was taught many years ago that the prophecy of Antichrist details the future coming of Satan incarnate. Others believe that Antichrist will be a world ruler, a leader that will be able to deceive by his amiable style or cunning politics. Still, others speculate that the Bible does not specifically say who the Antichrist is or where he will come from, just that he will be revealed. None of these ideas are biblical. Maybe the prophecy of Antichrist is quite possibly the most misunderstood prophecy in all of Christendom. And this is no doubt exacerbated by Premillennialism (one of the dominant doctrines in modern churches) confusing the issue with their private interpretations of chapters like Daniel 7-9 (the prophecy of the little horn), and 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2 (the man of sin). Typically and indeed inexplicably, these Theologians tend to either totally ignore or place very little emphasis on both the actual phrase man of sin, antichrist, and the very passages in scripture where these phrases are found. One is left to wonder how a Christian Biblically defines the Antichrist, or man of sin, without carefully considering both the word itself, and all of the pertinent verses where it is actually found? To ignore these things would seem to defy logic, reason, and a sound biblical hermeneutic, nut many do. For in order to find out what God is illustrating by His use of the word Antichrist, it is self-evident that we must study the passages explicitly talking about Antichrist and man of sin, and let the scriptures themselves define and interpret its meaning. If God is the author of Holy Canon, then it will God (rather than man) who must define the term. A sound exegesis is practiced in not following what we might think, assume, or surmise, but following what the scriptures themselves actually declare concerning the matter.

In this study, we will look first at the word Antichrist and the man of sin, and then we will consider circumspectly (in context) all of the passages in scripture where these phrases are used. In doing so, we hope to shed some light on this most misunderstood subject concerning "who is the Antichrist, or who is the man of sin"~ We will endeavor to cast off all speculation and personal or private interpretations about who is the man of sin. Does it concern a confederacy of ten nations, or the spawn of the cursed? If we receive our interpretations from within the word, we will clearly see the identity of the Antichrist. In leaning not to our own understanding, but receiving what the Bible alone has to say about this issue, this is the only way that Christians are going to come to any truth of who is the Antichrist.

Later...RB

[RB]

Mark 13:22~ "For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect."

When we take into consideration the whole of scripture, we find that Antichrist is another way of saying false Christ, or one who seeks to take 'the place of' Christ. These are those who are religious, but not in the sense of being true Christians or followers of Christ. This is why we see the term Antichrist in the context of those of the church who neglect God's laws and are in rebellion against Him. Because they don't serve the Christ of the Bible, they serve their own substitute for Christ, which is the sinful or lawless man (the man of sin) who rules God's house using his own rules, laws, beliefs and traditions in place of God's.

The spirit of Antichrist is Satan's spirit working through his children, and this spirit is the great deceiver who works within men so that they serve him thinking they serve God. All these who have this spirit are called Antichrists by God. They come in the power of Satan deceiving people by usurping the authority of Christ while saying, Lord, Lord~even saying that Jesus IS the Christ, but it IS another jesus, another spirit and having another gospel~ In other words, these claim they bring the gospel of Christ, peace, and safety in lawlessness. They come teaching 'thus saith the Lord, when the Lord has not said' because they are substitutes of Antichrists. God warns of them in many different passages and in many different ways.

When Christ prophesied of false Christs and false prophets coming in times of great tribulation, He is speaking of the many Antichrists. Those substitute or pseudo Christs that would arise. Again, by definition, a false Christ is someone that is "in place of" the true Christ. This is in agreement with the whole of scripture concerning these under strong delusion to serve Satan and yet want the name of Christ. These are men usurping the authority of Christ (His word) to lift their own self up and to reap the benefits of their many followers. Once the spirit of Satan enters into the unfaithful of God's congregation and its ministers, they become Antichrists. And as lawless man, Satan's spirit agents, they are deceived and they go forth deceiving.

Ephesians 2:2~"Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the Prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:"

The spirit that works within the children of lawlessness or disobedient is the spirit of Satan. The child of disobedience is the same as the man of sin~the abomination that God will make desolate.

Disobedience is lawlessness, and lawlessness in God's house is of the spirit of Antichrist. The great apostasy is when sinful man starts to rule the Lord's Temple 'as if' he were Christ himself. Therefore, the false Christs whom Jesus warned his people to beware of.

Mark 13:22-24~"For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,"

Contrary to popular opinion, man isn't literally required to verbally declare, "I am Christ," in order to qualify as a false Christ. All he has to do is usurp the authority of the Word and take Christ's place in the Holy Temple  AGAINST what the word of God teaches. All he has to do is rule God's house (the congregation) by his own will and teach by what is from his own imaginations. Then by definition, he is substituting himself for the Word, he is a false Christ. When man rules and seizes authority from God that he might say thus saith the Lord when the Lord has not said, he makes himself Christ~they even will tell you that God SAID TO THEM, etc. etc. and etc.  When man falsely claims that "God will allows this, and God winks at that, and God is not against the other," He is the false prophet, he is an antichrist, he is a false Christ. For he professes to be of Christ, and yet by his actions and teachings he works against Him, in essence, he denies Him in favor of the image he himself has created. The authority of Christ is His infallible unadulterated word, and anyone 'substituting' their own words for the Word of God, is carnal and worshipping the image of the Beast. He has become the lawless man, an antichrist exalting himself to high places. This indeed is the true teaching illustrated in 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2:

Later....
   

[robycop3]

First, the antichrist shall come to power.The Jews may have built their new temple in Jerusalem by then, or maybe the AC will broker some sorta deal which will allow the Jews to proceed with this without fear of starting WW3.

  As for the rapture, Jesus said to the church in Philadelphia, Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.(Rev. 3:10) That trial could only be the great trib, & the temptation to take the mark of the beast, which, I believe, will be some sorta implanted microchip. Remember, there will be trib saints, who won't come to Jesus until after the rapture. And they'll have a rough life, as they can't legally buy or sell without the 'mark, & will be hunted by the AC's 'security forces'.

  And the trib won't last for the entire 3.5 years. Remember, Jesus said it'd be cut short lest all flesh(man & animal) perish.

  Timeline:

  1.)The AC will come to power.The Jews may or may not have built their new temple by then; if not, it'll be shortly after the AC comes.
 
  2.) The Gog-Magog war will occur.

  3.) The rapture will occur very shortly before the great trib begins.

  4.) The AC will have an explanation asto why millions vanished, & the world will believe him.

  5.) The AC will commit the "abomination of desolation" in the new temple in Jerusalem, & he will institute the "mark of the beast. The great trib will begin.

  6.) The trib will be cut short, & Jesus will return immediately afterwards, casting the AC & his sidekick the false prophet alive into the LOF.

  7.) Jesus will take over the rule of the world, & the 'millenium' will begin.

  There will be other events interspersed into that timeline, such as the ministry of the 2 special witnesses, & the 'sealing' of the 144K Israeli witnesses; my outline just covers the main events.

  The ID if the AC is not known now, as he hasn't yet been made manifest; he may not even be born yet. It is NOT the line of popes, as the previous popes, with the exception of Benny, who stepped down, have all died. None were cast alive into the lake of fire. And none has had a miracle-working false prophet as his deputy.

  And only now has the tech existed for the implanting of a 'mark' (microchip) which can keep one's financial records & accounts.

  Remember, the true AC must fulfill EVERY prophecy made about him to the last letter.That rules out all the present "celebrities" on earth.

  I believe this timeline is according to Scripture.

[RB]

First, the antichrist shall come to power.The Jews may have built their new temple in Jerusalem by then, or maybe the AC will broker some sorta deal which will allow the Jews to proceed with this without fear of starting WW3.

Sir, I will say to you what I said to Reformer earlier in the day: Many are more bold to affirm than are able to prove their doctrince~bare affirmation without biblical proof has no weight whatsoever.

I will come back in the morning and post considering what you have said above.

[robycop3]

Sir, I will say to you what I said to Reformer earlier in the day: Many are more bold to affirm than are able to prove their doctrince~bare affirmation without biblical proof has no weight whatsoever.

I will come back in the morning and post considering what you have said above.

  You'll see I have PLENTY of Biblical affirmation for my view.

[RB]

  You'll see I have PLENTY of Biblical affirmation for my view.

You better get going, so far you are behind in providing such, of course, we just got started, but I'm pretty sure nothing I have never heard before and have answered before.

[robycop3]

You better get going, so far you are behind in providing such, of course, we just got started, but I'm pretty sure nothing I have never heard before and have answered before.

SURE! Here's Scriptural proof that the AC will be one man:

Here's the first mention of the beast/AC:

      Dan.9:26 “And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

  2 Thess.2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

  It refers to ONE MAN, not multiple men.Thus, the AC is not the papacy.

  Rev. 13:5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

  A close reading of Rev. 17 shows that the beast in that chapter refers to both the man & his empire. and I don't believe the hooey that the beast fr4om the earth is the USA or any other nation. It'll be one man with 2 titles (horns. No crowns show he won't be a king.)  Now, I won't speculate about the deadly head wound the first beast will receive, but its healing will make the world marvel.

  Rev. 19:19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

  More proof that the AC & FP will be TWO MEN. An entity or concept cannot be alive, but the Scripture plainly says those 2 will be cast ALIVE into the LOF.This will happen very shortly after Jesus returns, just prior to His taking over the rule of the world.

  So, there's plenty of Scriptural proof that the AC will be ONE MAN.

Your turn...

[RB]

  Timeline:

A true biblical timeline must INCLUDE Daniel's seventy weeks of prophecy we shall start at the end of the sixty-two week at death of Jesus Christ to the end of the world.


   End of the                                            The
    62 weeks                                         Consummation
 Messiah Cut Off   
       | ----------- Covenant confirmed 1 week -----------|
       |              by Messiah, the Prince              |
       |                                                  |
       | ----------- (Our Wilderness Sojourn!) -----------|
       |                                                  |
       | ------3 1/2 Years ------|------3 1/2 years ------|
       |       or 1260 days      |     or 42 months       |
       |  Time, Times and 1 half | Time, Times and 1 half |
       |                         |     (Temple)           |
       |                         |        |               |
       |                       1260      1290           1335
  We are Freed               Testimony   Abomination     The
  From Bondage               Finished!   of Desola.    Promised
   The Cross             (Midst of Week)             Inheritance!

Or, this one is much better to follow: http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/preterist-forum/shamed/msg1055164753/#msg1055164753

This is a very, very brief timeline that we shall now speak on as we answer your two posts, so give me some time it may take two to three posts from me to answer what you have written.

First, the antichrist shall come to power. The Jews may have built their new temple in Jerusalem by then, or maybe the AC will broker some sorta deal which will allow the Jews to proceed with this without fear of starting WW3.

robycop3, you right out of the gate begin to center your escathology around Abraham's natural seed, as though all biblical prophecy makes them the main focus of bible prophecy when in truth they are not even consider to be part of any biblical prophecy. We shall prove this as we go forward. We shall look to our Jewish brethren who were Christ's apostles and let them reveal to us as to WHOM are God's covenant people that shall sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob IN the kingdom of God in the world to come.

Jesus said to the church in Philadelphia, Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.(Rev. 3:10) That trial could only be the great trib, & the temptation to take the mark of the beast, which, I believe, will be some sorta implanted microchip. Remember, there will be trib saints, who won't come to Jesus until after the rapture.

God protect his people from the time of the great tribulation by SEALING THEM so that it is IMPOSSIBLE to totally deceive them. (Per Matthew 24:24) THIS tribulation is STRICTLY spiritual in nature per Matthew 24; Mark 13; and Luke 21; etc.

And they'll have a rough life, as they can't legally buy or sell without the 'mark, & will be hunted by the AC's 'security forces'.

Buying and selling MUST BE interpreted to mean that God's people will be PERSECUTED and hated and will NOT BE ACCEPTED in most churches throughout this world during that period of great tribulation toward the SAINTS OF GOD....not Jews.

Revelation 13:6-9~"And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any man have an ear, let him hear."

Revelation 11:3-7~"And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them."

The two witnesses ARE JEWS AND GENTILES (two olive trees -Romans 11;  two candlesticks-Revelation 2,3, etc.) that make up the churches of Jesus Christ throughout this world. In order to BUY AND SELL (be part of the churches in the last days) one MUST have the mark of the beast in their forehead and right hand~it is NOT a physical mark strictly spiritual in nature. Forehead, meaning that they are IN AGREEMENT with the latter days false congregations throughout this world.  The right hand signifies that they are in FELLOWSHIP with them~the ONLY way one can BUY and SELL~or to be part of them. (see Galatians 2:9 and consider!)

And the trib won't last for the entire 3.5 years.

The 70 WEEKS of prophecy are NOT literal 70 weeks, nor is the LAST seven years literal years, but a period of time KNOWN ONLY TO GOD, not us. More on this later...

Remember, Jesus said it'd be cut short lest all flesh(man & animal) perish.

Matthew 24:24 is to be taken spiritually NOT literal. Except the Lord shorten those days (years) then NO FLESH would be saved with a true KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH! Jesus was warning of FALSE PROPHETS coming in great numbers just before his coming. There is not a word about LITERAL PHYSICAL WARS, all spiritual in nature!  follow the context of Jesus' words NOT false prophets.

Maybe four or five posts I'll be finished.

[robycop3]

When we take into consideration the whole of scripture, we find that Antichrist is another way of saying false Christ, or one who seeks to take 'the place of' Christ. These are those who are religious, but not in the sense of being true Christians or followers of Christ. This is why we see the term Antichrist in the context of those of the church who neglect God's laws and are in rebellion against Him. Because they don't serve the Christ of the Bible, they serve their own substitute for Christ, which is the sinful or lawless man (the man of sin) who rules God's house using his own rules, laws, beliefs and traditions in place of God's.

The spirit of Antichrist is Satan's spirit working through his children, and this spirit is the great deceiver who works within men so that they serve him thinking they serve God. All these who have this spirit are called Antichrists by God. They come in the power of Satan deceiving people by usurping the authority of Christ while saying, Lord, Lord~even saying that Jesus IS the Christ, but it IS another jesus, another spirit and having another gospel~ In other words, these claim they bring the gospel of Christ, peace, and safety in lawlessness. They come teaching 'thus saith the Lord, when the Lord has not said' because they are substitutes of Antichrists. God warns of them in many different passages and in many different ways.

When Christ prophesied of false Christs and false prophets coming in times of great tribulation, He is speaking of the many Antichrists. Those substitute or pseudo Christs that would arise. Again, by definition, a false Christ is someone that is "in place of" the true Christ. This is in agreement with the whole of scripture concerning these under strong delusion to serve Satan and yet want the name of Christ. These are men usurping the authority of Christ (His word) to lift their own self up and to reap the benefits of their many followers. Once the spirit of Satan enters into the unfaithful of God's congregation and its ministers, they become Antichrists. And as lawless man, Satan's spirit agents, they are deceived and they go forth deceiving.The spirit that works within the children of lawlessness or disobedient is the spirit of Satan. The child of disobedience is the same as the man of sin~the abomination that God will make desolate.

Disobedience is lawlessness, and lawlessness in God's house is of the spirit of Antichrist. The great apostasy is when sinful man starts to rule the Lord's Temple 'as if' he were Christ himself. Therefore, the false Christs whom Jesus warned his people to beware of.Contrary to popular opinion, man isn't literally required to verbally declare, "I am Christ," in order to qualify as a false Christ. All he has to do is usurp the authority of the Word and take Christ's place in the Holy Temple  AGAINST what the word of God teaches. All he has to do is rule God's house (the congregation) by his own will and teach by what is from his own imaginations. Then by definition, he is substituting himself for the Word, he is a false Christ. When man rules and seizes authority from God that he might say thus saith the Lord when the Lord has not said, he makes himself Christ~they even will tell you that God SAID TO THEM, etc. etc. and etc.  When man falsely claims that "God will allows this, and God winks at that, and God is not against the other," He is the false prophet, he is an antichrist, he is a false Christ. For he professes to be of Christ, and yet by his actions and teachings he works against Him, in essence, he denies Him in favor of the image he himself has created. The authority of Christ is His infallible unadulterated word, and anyone 'substituting' their own words for the Word of God, is carnal and worshipping the image of the Beast. He has become the lawless man, an antichrist exalting himself to high places. This indeed is the true teaching illustrated in 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2:

Later....
   

  Yes, there are, & have been, many antichrists, but the one mentioned by Daniel, Paul, & Jesus in Revelation will be the worst AC of all. None of the others have been cast alive into the LOF, nor hav had a miracle-working FP as a sidekick. Remember, he is to have authority over the whole world, & that's never happened before.

[robycop3]

A true biblical timeline must INCLUDE Daniel's seventy weeks of prophecy we shall start at the end of the sixty-two week at death of Jesus Christ to the end of the world.


   End of the                                            The
    62 weeks                                         Consummation
 Messiah Cut Off   
       | ----------- Covenant confirmed 1 week -----------|
       |              by Messiah, the Prince              |
       |                                                  |
       | ----------- (Our Wilderness Sojourn!) -----------|
       |                                                  |
       | ------3 1/2 Years ------|------3 1/2 years ------|
       |       or 1260 days      |     or 42 months       |
       |  Time, Times and 1 half | Time, Times and 1 half |
       |                         |     (Temple)           |
       |                         |        |               |
       |                       1260      1290           1335
  We are Freed               Testimony   Abomination     The
  From Bondage               Finished!   of Desola.    Promised
   The Cross             (Midst of Week)             Inheritance!

Or, this one is much better to follow: http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/preterist-forum/shamed/msg1055164753/#msg1055164753

This is a very, very brief timeline that we shall now speak on as we answer your two posts, so give me some time it may take two to three posts from me to answer what you have written. robycop3, you right out of the gate begin to center your escathology around Abraham's natural seed, as though all biblical prophecy makes them the main focus of bible prophecy when in truth they are not even consider to be part of any biblical prophecy. We shall prove this as we go forward. We shall look to our Jewish brethren who were Christ's apostles and let them reveal to us as to WHOM are God's covenant people that shall sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob IN the kingdom of God in the world to come. God protect his people from the time of the great tribulation by SEALING THEM so that it is IMPOSSIBLE to totally deceive them. (Per Matthew 24:24) THIS tribulation is STRICTLY spiritual in nature per Matthew 24; Mark 13; and Luke 21; etc. Buying and selling MUST BE interpreted to mean that God's people will be PERSECUTED and hated and will NOT BE ACCEPTED in most churches throughout this world during that period of great tribulation toward the SAINTS OF GOD....not Jews. The two witnesses ARE JEWS AND GENTILES (two olive trees -Romans 11;  two candlesticks-Revelation 2,3, etc.) that make up the churches of Jesus Christ throughout this world. In order to BUY AND SELL (be part of the churches in the last days) one MUST have the mark of the beast in their forehead and right hand~it is NOT a physical mark strictly spiritual in nature. Forehead, meaning that they are IN AGREEMENT with the latter days false congregations throughout this world.  The right hand signifies that they are in FELLOWSHIP with them~the ONLY way one can BUY and SELL~or to be part of them. (see Galatians 2:9 and consider!) The 70 WEEKS of prophecy are NOT literal 70 weeks, nor is the LAST seven years literal years, but a period of time KNOWN ONLY TO GOD, not us. More on this later... Matthew 24:24 is to be taken spiritually NOT literal. Except the Lord shorten those days (years) then NO FLESH would be saved with a true KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH! Jesus was warning of FALSE PROPHETS coming in great numbers just before his coming. There is not a word about LITERAL PHYSICAL WARS, all spiritual in nature!  follow the context of Jesus' words NOT false prophets.

Maybe four or five posts I'll be finished.

  Sir, you're taking the rabbit trail of preterists : reducing certain Scriptures to figurative/symbolic status when, in reality, they're LITERAL. That's all guesswork, as reality proves.

   While the original genealogies of the Jews are lost, many can trace their lines back to Roman times. And their history of being persecuted for over 1800 years, but still surviving as a people, to finally once again have a sovereign nation in their own land, with Jerusalem as their capital, & being the "pound-for-pound" military champs of all time didn't just happen by chance !

  Before we go any further, I'll tell you now that I do NOT believe the results of reducing literal Scriptures to figurative/symbolic status. I know too much Scripture & history to believe those man-made products of imagination & guesswork.

[RB]

Yes, there are, & have been, many antichrists, but the one mentioned by Daniel, Paul, & Jesus in Revelation will be the worst AC of all.

No not the worst, but greater in numbers, and power, that if it were possible, even the very elect would be deceived in following them "if" it were possible, but it will not be so, mainly because God will shortened those days when this world will be overrunning with false prophets and the great wonders they shall do~mainly and seemly wonderful works, by building great empires for themselves ( if the truth was known ) using the name of Jesus Christ and his gospel as to why they are doing what they are doing. I could easily give a list of these empires built by false prophets. Or, you can just google and check out how filthy rich many men in religion are and also look at what they have built in the name of Jesus Christ.  THESE ARE the antichrist that shall come, it is STRICTLY religious in nature. Mystery Babylon is TWO-FOLD~in Mystery Babylon ( which is THIS WORLD under the rule of the spirit of Satan ) you have its religion and its commerce and entertainments, etc. Revelation 17 mostly address its false religion~while the rest of Revelation 17 and 18 addresses the kingdoms of this world who are ALSO under the reign of the spirit of the Devil~the king of the bottomless pit.

One more quick thought before I forget~the entertainment world are using their celebrity power to force Mystery Babylon's power players ( the super-rich ) to enforce their wicked lifestyles and anti-god mentality on other people before they are willing to entertain them~that's something most can not live without~so in the end~ THEY PREVAIL. It is happening right before our very eyes.  Very soon Christians will be the most hated people on the face of this earth~yes, they hated now, but much of it is concealed~very soon it will be almost untied against them, that is those who truly believe and love the word of God. This world is quickly being filled with an antichrist spirit, even though much of it is somewhat hidden for now.

Coming very soon today and will labor to get caught you.

[robycop3]

No not the worst, but greater in numbers, and power, that if it were possible, even the very elect would be deceived in following them "if" it were possible, but it will not be so, mainly because God will shortened those days when this world will be overrunning with false prophets and the great wonders they shall do~mainly and seemly wonderful works, by building great empires for themselves ( if the truth was known ) using the name of Jesus Christ and his gospel as to why they are doing what they are doing. I could easily give a list of these empires built by false prophets. Or, you can just google and check out how filthy rich many men in religion are and also look at what they have built in the name of Jesus Christ.  THESE ARE the antichrist that shall come, it is STRICTLY religious in nature. Mystery Babylon is TWO-FOLD~in Mystery Babylon ( which is THIS WORLD under the rule of the spirit of Satan ) you have its religion and its commerce and entertainments, etc. Revelation 17 mostly address its false religion~while the rest of Revelation 17 and 18 addresses the kingdoms of this world who are ALSO under the reign of the spirit of the Devil~the king of the bottomless pit.

One more quick thought before I forget~the entertainment world are using their celebrity power to force Mystery Babylon's power players ( the super-rich ) to enforce their wicked lifestyles and anti-god mentality on other people before they are willing to entertain them~that's something most can not live without~so in the end~ THEY PREVAIL. It is happening right before our very eyes.  Very soon Christians will be the most hated people on the face of this earth~yes, they hated now, but much of it is concealed~very soon it will be almost untied against them, that is those who truly believe and love the word of God. This world is quickly being filled with an antichrist spirit, even though much of it is somewhat hidden for now.

Coming very soon today and will labor to get caught you.

  Sir, you're making stuff up as you go. Scripture indicates ONE MAN will be the beast/antichrist.(Yes, there are many antichrists, but an analogy to the beast is that there are many species of fish, but only one is called the great white shark.)

  Daniel said "THE prince". Paul mentions only ONE "man of sin". revelation says "he", not 'they'.

  Sorry, Sir, but your theory holds as much water as a sieve.

[RB]

Daniel said "THE prince". Paul mentions only ONE "man of sin".

Sir you are confuse. I will do to you what you so far have not done to me~I'll take you points and prove theme wrong~just telling me that I'm making things up As I go, does not one thing to help your position.

A very brief introduction: First, let us consider.....Daniel said "THE prince".

Daniel 9:21-27~"Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation. And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding. At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision. Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

Let us see who has an understanding of this great prophecy. It will take more than one post, so, if you can, please allow me time to finish this, and then I will give you all the time you need for a rebuttal.

Premillennialism eschatology hinges on this prophecy. Others like myself emphasize this prophecy but different details, time , and amazingly the PRINCE, and his people!  Premillennialism gets a seven years tribulation, a personal antichrist making a deal with the Jews, Abraham's natural seed, a third temple with reinstituting animal sacrifices, etc.

Preterist have their problems as well, with this prophecy, yet we only want to confine our attention to your teachings since this thread is for you. 

This prophecy glorifies Jesus Christ and reveals latter-day prophecy of the professing false children of the PRINCE that shall come and destroy God's holy temple and take it over, just as Paul clearly interprets this prophecy for us in 2nd. Thess. 2.

The premillennial camp errors greatly in this prophecy of JESUS CHRIST and his people. First~they make God a liar twice over in this prophecy. Follow me carefully, so taht there will be no misunderstanding on what I'm saying. They make Jesus Christ the antichrist and the New Testament a contract with the devil! Every man who follows CONTEXT will only see JESUS CHRIST in this prophecy. The only truth that we do agree with Premillennialist is that there IS A GAP in this prophecy, UNLIKE the preterist who teaches that there is none (well they have their's, it is just shorter, they just refuse to confess they have one.

Later...Part ONE.

[robycop3]

  Sir, I shall patiently await your reply, assuming you have a life outside of a keyboard, as I do. But meanwhile, consider this :

  The Scripture says "the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city...". Remember, this occurs AFTER Messiah is 'cut off', as history confirms as well. This means the coming 'beast/antichrist' will be of Roman descent. That shows he could come from almost anywhere, as there are descendants of the Romans all over the world.

  But clearly, The Prince the Messiah & the prince of the perole that shall come are not the same person !

[RB]

Sir, I shall patiently await your reply, assuming you have a life outside of a keyboard, as I do. But meanwhile, consider this :

  The Scripture says "the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city...". Remember, this occurs AFTER Messiah is 'cut off', as history confirms as well. This means the coming 'beast/antichrist' will be of Roman descent. That shows he could come from almost anywhere, as there are descendants of the Romans all over the world.

  But clearly, The Prince the Messiah & the prince of the perole that shall come are not the same person !

Sorry, I did leave with the post open~my bad. I got sidetracked by grandchildren.

I have considered whether they are the same or not many years ago and even earlier this morning I knew that it must be addressed. The amillennial idealist position (which is what I would to called by those who understand the different schools of eschatology)  knows they are different. Later in the morning, I should post again, the Lord willing.  For now, let me say this:

So far I want to say that your spirit has been very Christ-like and even when it will get heated, I'm sure nothing will change my mind. These subjects are very dear to godly men's hearts, knowing that, there may be some very heated exchanges I'm very sure.  We should never judge a men's heart on his beliefs on end-times events. No man has perfect understanding as Daniel had.

Matthew 24:15:14~"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

I knew a preacher once that said that one MUST understand Daniel before he could understand Matthew 24, etc. That is not what Christ is saying in Matthew 24:15~what he is saying is whoever reads Matthew 24 WITH UNDERSTANDING (by SEEING the abomination of desolation standing where it OUGHT NOT to stand ) then let him UNDERSTAND the prophecy of Daniel~which Jesus explains Daniel's prophecies to us overall considered, not in every detail of course. The abomination that God WILL bring to desolation is fulfilled in the professing children of the PRINCE the promised Messiah in the latter days of the CHURCH AGE just before Christ's second coming, which we are NOW SEEING as the churches of this world are apostatizing from God's holy word and setting up their own manner of worshipping God with the doctrines that they agree with and the true doctrines of the word of God being abandoned, despised and totally rejected.

Later...RB

[RB]

Daniel 9:21-27~"Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation. And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding. At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision. Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

I read over Daniel nine a couple of times just to make sure I do not forget anything important, yet I still may, but here we go.

Daniel 9:2~"In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.

Daniel reading from Jeremiah he understood that God had determined Seventy weeks upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.  Therefore, Daniel begins to make supplications unto God confessing his sins and his people sins, AND.....

At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision based upon the skill God would impart to Daniel. .

So let us see if we too can understand these scriptures' overall meaning. Seventy weeks of prophecy covers from the time the commandment went forth to rebuild until the end of the world as we shall see.  

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city"~Here I may differ with some good men, but when I consider all of the scriptures that are connected with this prophecy, it is impossible to limit Daniel's people to the natural seed of Abraham and the holy city to literal Jerusalem, even though I DO AGREE that it includes them, just not limited to them, I shall trust to prove this later. Daniel's TRUE people are the promised seed to Abraham which does not include every natural-born Jews per Romans 9:5-11...Read and consider who is the TRUE seed of Abraham~which are the true people of Daniel, and he DID understand this truth, regardless if others do not.

"to finish the transgression"~to finish the transgression~ is not easily determined at least by me...But here is what I believe this means: "Would be to take sin to its ultimate height" to a point where God has had enough and judgment must fall.

1st Thessalonnia 2:14-16"For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

One more:

Revelation 14:15-18~"And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

"to make reconciliation for iniquity"~

Hebrews 9:26~"...but now once in the end of the world hath He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

2nd Corinthians 5:18~"And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation. To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation."

This is what Daniel means by making an end of sins and that reconciliation is made for iniquity. This verse 24 of Daniel chapter 9 is clearly speaking of the Messiah's atonement for the sins THE Israel of God, by the work of the cross.

Luke 1:68-70"Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:"

Here the prophecy is fulfillled as Daniel's people Israel has their Messiah come, that their sins would be closed up (or come to an end), and that reconciliation would be made. And that is exactly what Christ, who was Israel's Messiah, did. Men differ on WHAT ISRAEL is under consideration.

Hebrews 2:17~"Wherefore in all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the People."

The same as the Prophesy we read in Daniel, that Messiah would come for the reconciliation of the sins of His people. And this was fulfilled in Christ's atonement.

"to bring in everlasting righteousness."~ This is the effect of the work of Christ. When the sins are sealed up, and the reconciliation is made for iniquity, then everlasting righteousness is the result. i.e., there is no chance those sins are going to be un-sealed or are going to return, for they were sealed in Christ who became sin for us, that we might be righteous in Him. He died with Israel's sins laid upon Him, and when He was risen, it was\ without them. Thus His people Israel were raised with Him, in righteousness. And that righteousness that Christ brought to them is eternal, because in Him they sin no more. This prophesied Messiah has made an end of it, making them righteous.

2nd Corinthians 5:20-21~"..we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled in Christ. For He hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him."

The Messiah of the Israel of God brought in everlasting righteousness, and made reconciliation for iniquity, just as prophesied. And Because He has paid for ALL of their sins, His righteousness becomes their Righteousness. They are effectively clothed in the righteousness of Christ, and that righteousness brings everlasting Life ( Consider: 2nd Corinthians 9:9-10).

John 6:40"..that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life:.."

This is the everlasting righteousness that was prophesied to be brought in during these 70 weeks of Daniel 9, when an end is made of sin, and reconciliation occurred. No one has any righteousness of their own (there is none righteous, no not one~Romans 3:10), but they are made the righteousness of Christ by HIS OBEDIENCE. Christ ushered in the everlasting righteousness Daniel refers to, and THE Israel of God attains that righteousness by the oath and promises of God to Israel.

Philippians 3:9"And be found in Him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith."

The prophecy of Daniel was that Messiah the Prince would bring in the everlasting righteousness for the people of THE Israel of God, and it was unquestionably fulfilled at the cross.

[robycop3]

 No Christian here will deny Messiah has come, & was "cut off", but He was NOT a prince of the people who shall destroy Jerusalem. As J was in ruins at the time Daniel received his prophecies, this can only be referring to the later destruction by the Romans, & it shows the AC will be of Roman descent, which means he could come from almost anywhere, as descendants of the Romans are found worldwide.

[RB]

No Christian here will deny Messiah has come, & was "cut off", but He was NOT a prince of the people who shall destroy Jerusalem. As J was in ruins at the time Daniel received his prophecies, this can only be referring to the later destruction by the Romans, & it shows the AC will be of Roman descent, which means he could come from almost anywhere, as descendants of the Romans are found worldwide.

I have more coming~if you noticed carefully I LIMITED Christ's work to THE ISREAL of God~there are NO promises in Daniel to Abraham's natural seed, ( that is not fulfilled in Abraham's spiritual seed ) NO THIRD temple, no animal sacrifices reinstated, etc. Actually, I did not limit Israel to Abraham's spiritual seed~ God did.  Whatever Daniel is speaking about, the NT will guide us in understanding the prophecy that even Daniel needed guidance on. If he did, then we certainly do~and will still come short understanding it perfectly~but overall we can. One more time:

The abomination that God WILL bring to desolation is fulfilled in the "professing children" of the PRINCE of the promised Messiah in the latter days of the CHURCH AGE just before Christ's second coming, which we are NOW SEEING as the churches of this world are apostatizing from God's holy word and setting up their own manner of worshipping God with the doctrines that they agree with and the true doctrines of the word of God being abandoned, despised and totally rejected.

As we move forward, I trust to prove this more and more, which I'm convinced that I can. 

[robycop3]

  The jews EILL build another temple in jerusalem, where the beast/antichrist will perform the "abomination of desolation". daniel rederred to a single prince, not multiple princes, Paul referred to a man (not "men") of sin, and Revelation refers to "he", not "they". You're trying to make up new & incorrect meanings to certain Scriptures.

[RB]

The Jews WILL build another temple in Jerusalem, where the beast/antichrist will perform the "abomination of desolation". Daniel referred to a single prince, not multiple princes, Paul referred to a man (not "men") of sin, and Revelation refers to "he", not "they". You're trying to make up new & incorrect meanings to certain Scriptures.
  T

robycop3~You saying that and proving he same is a task that you cannot do. Men should not build their doctrine on vain conceits upon God's power without support from his word. There is no one word in the NT which is a clear revelation OT prophecies interpreted for us by of all people, who were Jews by nature! Does not this mean anything to do? If nothing more, it should cause you to ponder well what these Jewish apostles wrote concerning their understanding of ALL scriptures. IF the NT was written by Gentiles, then you may have a little room to debate your cause, but they give your position no support, not just a little, but none whatsoever~this should concern you.

The Jews WILL build another temple in Jerusalem

Give scriptural proof for this.

where the beast/antichrist will perform the "abomination of desolation"

Sir, the beast/antichrist will stand where he ought not to stand in the temple of the NT CHURCHES declaring that he is God. This they will do by rejecting God's truth for what [ithey[/i] like, or dislike, by teaching doctrines that is more compatible to what they would teach and believe if they were God~so, basically they have created a god in their own heart that they think this is what God should teach, and believe~they care little if any about what the God of the scriptures teach! Later in Matthew 24, we shall consider these things in more detail, along with 2nd Thessalonians 2.

Paul referred to a man (not "men") of sin, and Revelation refers to "he", not "they"

For now~if you carefully consider 2nd Thess. 2~you will see that Paul clearly uses the term "man of sin as a collective noun~ This singular man is the Man of Sin, the collective name for all who live under the power of sin in rejecting God's word/truths for their own doctrines and lust to live as they please and still be called a follower of Jesus Christ! 

Just consider how Paul how Paul went from saying man of sin to using the words:  'THEY" over and over again until he is finished speaking about the WICKED ONE!

2nd Thessalonians 2:3-12~ "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

We all use such speech all of the time when speaking of many, not just one person. A man God...a man of righteousness...a man of war....etc.

[robycop3]

robycop3~You saying that and proving he same is a task that you cannot do. Men should not build their doctrine on vain conceits upon God's power without support from his word. There is no one word in the NT which is a clear revelation OT prophecies interpreted for us by of all people, who were Jews by nature! Does not this mean anything to do? If nothing more, it should cause you to ponder well what these Jewish apostles wrote concerning their understanding of ALL scriptures. IF the NT was written by Gentiles, then you may have a little room to debate your cause, but they give your position no support, not just a little, but none whatsoever~this should concern you. Give scriptural proof for this.

  The Scriptural proof, while not direct, is clear. The abomination of desolation hasn't yet occurred, and, since the temple of Jesus' time is gone, a new one must be built for the AOD to occur in. And the Jews have all the materials gathered for a new temple. recently, they built & consecrated an altar to be used in it, & for several years, they've been breeding animals such as red heifers to be used in temple rites.

Sir, the beast/antichrist will stand where he ought not to stand in the temple of the NT CHURCHES declaring that he is God. This they will do by rejecting God's truth for what [ithey[/i] like, or dislike, by teaching doctrines that is more compatible to what they would teach and believe if they were God~so, basically they have created a god in their own heart that they think this is what God should teach, and believe~they care little if any about what the God of the scriptures teach! Later in Matthew 24, we shall consider these things in more detail, along with 2nd Thessalonians 2. For now~if you carefully consider 2nd Thess. 2~you will see that Paul clearly uses the term "man of sin as a collective noun~ This singular man is the Man of Sin, the collective name for all who live under the power of sin in rejecting God's word/truths for their own doctrines and lust to live as they please and still be called a follower of Jesus Christ!

  RB, you may not be a preterist, but you're still doing as prets do, re-defining Scriptures insteada "taking" them as written. There's not a quark of PROOF Paul used a collective noun for the MOS.
2 Thess.2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

  There was only one temple of God in Paul's time, the temple in Jerusalem. Now, even if the Jews build the new one as large as the previous one was, it couldn't hold all the sinners alive today. Besides that, these people don't pretend to be God, nor disavow His existence. The 'they' in other passages is referring to those who follow the man of sin, or else that man & his sidekick the false prophet. Your "group theory" is simply wrong.

Just consider how Paul how Paul went from saying man of sin to using the words:  'THEY" over and over again until he is finished speaking about the WICKED ONE! We all use such speech all of the time when speaking of many, not just one person. A man God...a man of righteousness...a man of war....etc.

  Again, it's either referring to the followers of that man, or that man & his sidekick. While there were, & are, many antichrists, the "beast/man of sin" will be the most-evil of all.(Remember, an antichrist is anyone not FOR Christ.) His forerunners were Napoleon & Hitler. The coming man will make them seem as naughty toddlers in comparison. He & the false prophet will be so evil that they will be directly cast alive into the lake of fire, without appearing before the Great White Throne, etc.

[RB]

The Scriptural proof, while not direct, is clear.

Sir, if NOT direct, then pray to tell me how in the world can it be clear? Direct=clear~my little grandchildren understand that to be so. You have a serious problem to address, and must do better than you have so far. My true desire for you is that you will see the error of premillennialism that is a system that are bold to affirm, yet are unable to prove. Remember~bare affirmation without God's testimony supporting it is nothing more than emotional support ...I much rather have God's word supporting me, the only hope of knowing I have embraced the truth on the particular subject under consideration.

The abomination of desolation hasn't yet occurred, and, since the temple of Jesus' time is gone, a new one must be built for the AOD to occur in.

I will only say this for now, concerning the AOD~the Abomination of desolation and the Jewish Temple are not even under consideration under the NT teachings from the gospel's to Revelation. The AOD is not what is abominable to the Jews, but what is an abomination to God that he will make desolate at his coming! More on this later.

And the Jews have all the materials gathered for a new temple. recently, they built & consecrated an altar to be used in it, & for several years, they've been breeding animals such as red heifers to be used in temple rites.

True or false, it makes no difference~even if true, what does it prove SCRIPTURALLY? If anything he only proves their biblical blindness fostered by the false doctrine of premillennialism.

There was only one temple of God in Paul's time, the temple in Jerusalem.

One Jewish temple that God forsook at the death and resurrection of his Son! But there was a spiritual temple made without hands that is the true apple of his eyes and where he is building for an ETERNAL HABITATION through the Spirit. God has never dwelled in a temple made with hands and NEVER WILL. I cannot say very much now for all these points are many posts within themselves...briefly:

Ephesians 2:12-22~"That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit."

The ONLY holy temple being built for God is made up of BOTH Jews and Gentiles CALLED THE SAINTS! These saints meet in buildings throughout this world since the days of the apostles~yet toward the end of this world these churches~"places of worship"~ will apostate from Jesus Christ,  while along proclaiming to be his children~JUST AS THE OT church did! In this biblical sense, the man of sin will stand where he ought not to stand preaching another gospel and putting to death (silence) the two witnesses of Revelation 11~JEWS and GENTILES! The ONLY temple post the death of Jesus Christ are the visible churches THROUGHOUT this world!

Now, even if the Jews build the new one as large as the previous one was, it couldn't hold all the sinners alive today. Besides that, these people don't pretend to be God, nor disavow His existence. The 'they' in other passages is referring to those who follow the man of sin, or else that man & his sidekick the false prophet. Your "group theory" is simply wrong.

Just answer this above.  More later on this point.

  Again, it's either referring to the followers of that man, or that man & his sidekick. While there were, & are, many antichrists, the "beast/man of sin" will be the most-evil of all.(Remember, an antichrist is anyone not FOR Christ.) His forerunners were Napoleon & Hitler. The coming man will make them seem as naughty toddlers in comparison. He & the false prophet will be so evil that they will be directly cast alive into the lake of fire, without appearing before the Great White Throne, etc.

Coming back later today to say more on this.

[robycop3]

Sir, if NOT direct, then pray to tell me how in the world can it be clear? Direct=clear~my little grandchildren understand that to be so. You have a serious problem to address, and must do better than you have so far. My true desire for you is that you will see the error of premillennialism that is a system that are bold to affirm, yet are unable to prove. Remember~bare affirmation without God's testimony supporting it is nothing more than emotional support ...I much rather have God's word supporting me, the only hope of knowing I have embraced the truth on the particular subject under consideration.

  Jesus said the AOD would be standing where it ought not. Paul, writing after communicating with Jesus, wrote that the man of sin would sit in the temple & declare himself God. That'll be the AOD. And COMMON SENSE says there has to be a temple for him to sit in ! Your (and my) grandkids know that!

  And Scripture clearly shows that Jesus will return, cast the 2 beasts alive into the LOF, & take over rule of the world, which will start the millenium. 'Tis YOUR view that's in error !

I will only say this for now, concerning the AOD~the Abomination of desolation and the Jewish Temple are not even under consideration under the NT teachings from the gospel's to Revelation. The AOD is not what is abominable to the Jews, but what is an abomination to God that he will make desolate at his coming!

  And a man declaring himself to be God is CERTAINLY an abomination to God !

More on this later.True or false, it makes no difference~even if true, what does it prove SCRIPTURALLY? If anything he only proves their biblical blindness fostered by the false doctrine of premillennialism.  One Jewish temple that God forsook at the death and resurrection of his Son! But there was a spiritual temple made without hands that is the true apple of his eyes and where he is building for an ETERNAL HABITATION through the Spirit. God has never dwelled in a temple made with hands and NEVER WILL. I cannot say very much now for all these points are many posts within themselves...briefly: The ONLY holy temple being built for God is made up of BOTH Jews and Gentiles CALLED THE SAINTS! These saints meet in buildings through this world since the days of the apostles~yet toward the end of this world these churches~places of worship will apostate from Jesus Christ,  while along proclaiming to be his children~JUST AS THE OT church did!  In this biblical sense, the man of sin will stand where he ought not to stand preaching another gospel and putting to death (silence) the two witnesses of Revelation 11~JEWS and GENTILES! The ONLY temple post the death of Jesus Christ are the visible churches THROUGHOUT this world!Just answer this above.  More later on this point.Coming back later today to say more on this.

  You just can't make your case without altering Scriptures ! you cannot make a case for the millenium's beginning any other time  before Jesus' return.

  The sequence of the eschatological events germane to this discussion are plainly set forth in the Revelation:
1. The beast from the sea & the beast from the earth(the false prophet) take over.
2. The great trib occurs
3. Jesus returns & the 2 beasts are disposed of.

   The events are set forth in that order, along with some others, which are not part of this discussion. You cannot change their order without changing Scripture !
4. Jesus reigns over the earth with His saints for 1K years, while Satan is banished.

[RB]

Jesus said the AOD would be standing where it ought not. Paul, writing after communicating with Jesus, wrote that the man of sin would sit in the temple & declare himself God. That'll be the AOD. And COMMON SENSE says there has to be a temple for him to sit in ! Your (and my) grandkids know that!

Here is where Premill and Amill idealist agrees, that truly separates us from the Preterist and those who are half baked Preterist, like the Historical Amill. Where we disagree is putting the proper sense on the TIMING-TEMPLE-TRIBULATION being spiritual in nature (Amill Idealist) ALL taking place within this present dispensation~NO Secret rapture for the Amill idealist, we believe that the second coming and the raptures are ALL ONE and the same, not two separate events all taking place on the LAST DAY~the great tribulation is a period of time UNKNOWN to us, yet starting with an OVERFLOWING of false prophets and a rejection of bible doctrines, by the false prophets who stand in the outward professing churches ( TEMPLES ) declaring that they are God's mouthpiece for us to follow, even teaching that Jesus IS THE CHRIST, but it is another Jesus, another spirit and another gospel~ To get our attention away from the truth, they have invented a doctrine giving Israel after flesh a false hope of being God's chosen people and that he will return and save them from their enmeies~ etc., etc., etc. This is a lie~and truly those that preach this are Israel's greatest enemies, NOT the Palestinian! They need to be taught Ephesians 2, etc. They need to listen to the JEWISH APOSTLES, not men like Jimmy Swaggart, John Hagee, and many more.

Let me consider the man of sin more.

2nd Thessalonians 2:1-4~"Now we beseech you brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that Man of Sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the Temple of God, showing himself that he is God."

Many Theologians have privately interpreted this man of sin to be everything from The Pope, Hitler, Stalin, to a devil man himself. It makes for entertaining movie fodder, and for intriguing stories around the camp fire, but as far as Biblical Theology, it's all worth nothing. There is a better way to determine who this passage is referring to. How about we let the scriptures themselves tell us. It is man who refuses to be subject to the doctrines and to the laws of God! This is the definition of the man of sin, or, the man of sin which helps us greatly in understanding the man of sin. He is a transgressor of the laws of God and a hater of his truths. When Satan comes in the latter days without restraint, he will come revealing himself through his children, a generation of serpents.

It should seem very clear to all who can read with understanding that these verses are not referring to one particular man, but to man, "in particular." Man who being led by the spirit of Satan, forsakes the Lord's TRUTHS and transgresses the laws of God in the Holy Temple. This is the prophesy of the time preceding the second advent of the Lord, when man refuses to be subject to the authority of God's word, and will instead exalt "himself" to rule in God's Holy Temple. In other words, forsake the law of God for his own precepts, rules, and authority and doctrines. A time when iniquity will abound as it ushers in the return of the Lord. Matthew 24 speaks of this time as one of "Great tribulation" for believers which we be spiritual in nature. This would follow, for the believers are those who will "Keep" the word of God faithfully, and so will be persecuted by the man of sin and put out of the temples of God.

I have more if you can wait...RB

[RB]

2nd Thessalonians 2:1-4~"Now we beseech you brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that Man of Sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the Temple of God, showing himself that he is God."

Matthew 24:12~"And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold".

This is a time when the transgression of Abomination occurs and many of the professing Churches are deceived by false prophets ruled by Satan. Man of sin who sits and rules in the Holy Temple of God (Churches) as if he was God. The mystery of Iniquity shall "abound"  more so than at any time in this world's short history at which time the love of God shall grow cold. In fact, right here in 2nd Thessalonians 2:6-8 tells us this iniquity was being restrained or held down (when the text was written) until a time when He who restrains is taken out of the midst. In other words, iniquity (Lawlessness, Sin, Wickedness, Transgression) was being held down, but the prophesy was that at sometime in the future (spoken of as when he who restrains it would be taken out of the midst) this iniquity would be loosed and then the man of sin is revealed to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear. Many will be deceived by this iniquity and it gives the reason as, because they refused to receive the love of truth!  2nd Thessalonians 2:10.  They reject TRUTH for their OWN version of the truth, therefore they are deceived by the words of man of sin in the professing Temple of God, where they claim to be follower of Jesus Christ, etc.  Man exalting man's power, goodness, etc.  Man saying that God declares Homosexuality is not an abomination. Man saying God declares abortion is not murder, etc., etc. Man saying that God LOVES all without exception and that we ALL are his children, etc. This is a man of sin who is ruling as God in the Holy Temple. Remember, after the cross, the Holy Temple was no longer a building in Jerusalem. It is either one of three things.

1. The Lord Jesus Christ
2. The Body of a believer
3. The Church

Those are the only three things possible after the cross to be prophesied as the Holy Temple of God. You cannot have a "shadow" which has been fulfilled by Christ, returning and returning as the Holy Temple again. Therefore, the building in Jerusalem no longer qualified to be prophesied as the Holy Temple of God after the cross. It is a shadow that was fulfilled.

So since abomination cannot stand in Christ, nor in the body of a believer where Christ dwells and will never leave nor forsake them, it can only stand in the churches. You see the Holy Temple is built not only with Gold, and silver and precious stones, but also with wood, hay, and stubble. i.e., all in the Churches are not Saved. Of course, this is no secret or a new revelation.

1st Corinthians 3:10~"According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is."

Jesus is that Corner stone of this holy temple and we are built upon Him, but all are not precious building material. these who are wood, hay, and stubble are the unfaithful in the Church. Because of these, near the second advent, abomination will stand and RULE in the Holy Temple as the Churches fall away, or apostate from God in GREAT NUMBERS.

It is clear this coming time when iniquity will abound (come to the full or multiply), coincides with Satan being loosed (Revelation 20). Man, being deceived by the spirit of antichrist coming with all power, and signs and Lying wonders, will think to change times and laws and rule as if he were God in the Temple. As Judas was one of the 12, yet betrayed our Lord, so many false prophets and false teachers will deceive many, and many will betray Christ in the Church. When man sets himself up as the authority in the church, his law replacing God's Word, this is an abomination that God WILL make desolate. We have false professors in most of the churches in our day, and this abomination leads to it's Desolation~JUST AS IT DID BEFORE CHRIST CAME!

The "mystery of iniquity" was already at work at the time Paul was writing this ( 2nd Thessalonians 2:7 ), but it was being restrained that it could not come to the full until it's time. Just as we can read the Anti Christ was already in the world at the time of the apostles  ( 1st John 2:18 ), but would also come in the future. It all refers to the Spirit of Satan who indwells "man" and deceives him and causes him to fall away from the TRUE TEACHINGS OD THE HOLY SCRIPTURES. Since the cross, this ( The Great Tribulation period ) has not been allowed to occur, for Christ restrains it as He was building His Church. But near the return of the Lord Jesus (verse 1-4) then this apostasy must take place. As it is written, Judgment must begin at the House of God. Christ Restrained it by the Cross. Bound Satan! Verse seven refers to that, saying it would continue to be restrained until He be taken out of the midst. When a church (The Holy Temple of God) falls away from the faith, it has no Spirit of God in the midst (i.e., where two or three are gathered together in My name, there am I in the midst ( Matthew 18:20). When the Spirit is no more in the midst of a Church, iniquity abounds. Apostasy sets in and man rules in the place of God by following his own teachings instead of God's. This is what 2nd Thessalonians 2 speaks about and agrees perfectly with Daniel 7-12; Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 21 and Revelation 20, etc.

Simply put, the man of sin is the man of sin. Not an individual, but man of sin. Just as I would say the man of lawfulness or faithfulness worships in the Temple. It's not a reference to one single man, but to the man who is faithful or follows the teachings of God. Likewise, the man of sin is just the opposite! Any betrayer of Christ, just as Judas was deceived of Satan to betray Christ. Any false teachers that seek to establish themselves as authority "over" the teaching of God, abandoning His Word for their own private interpretations, this is the man of SIN. We are seeing this falling away right now in the Churches. There are many Churches today ruled by the man of sin instead of God. Not a few, many! These are those who make up their own rules and doctrines to govern themselves, rather than humbly receive God's word. And can the Coming of the lord be far off? even so, Come Lord Jesus! All of God's children said....AMEN, AMEN.

[robycop3]

  Sir, Scripture plainly points to ONE MAN as being the most-evil of all time, the man known as the beast from the sea. Daniel, Paul, & Revelation all say "man", not "men". This man & his sidekick the false prophet will be cast alive into the LOF when Jesus returns.

  You simply cannot have multiple men of sin without re-wording Scripture !

[RB]

Sir, Scripture plainly points to ONE MAN as being the most-evil of all time, the man known as the beast from the sea. Daniel, Paul, & Revelation all say "man", not "men". This man & his sidekick the false prophet will be cast alive into the LOF when Jesus returns.

  You simply cannot have multiple men of sin without re-wording Scripture !

Greetings robycop3~Not re-wording Scripture, but allowing the scriptures to reveal the antichrist~Daniel was written in a hidden manner, (and for the most part KEPT SEAL UP until Christ begun to open it up to us ) yet our NT guides our understanding in knowing Daniel's prophecies~for Jesus said

Matthew 24:15~"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)"

Meaning~considering what Christ was "then" speaking of is the very same subject of what Daniel wrote on~and it is SO CLEAR Jesus was not speaking concerning one individual but and OVERFLOWING of abominations brought of by the abundance of false prophets and professors following them prior to (1.) Jesus' second coming......(2.) the rapture........(3.) and the resurrection at the last day...... of ALL in the grave..... all of these three things being the same event, not three separate events over a period of one thousand years!

Sir, you just keep making bare assumptions/assertions without biblical truths supporting you. You keep repeating this will never gain acceptance as it does in the world's sinful and wicked political arena. Matthew 24; Mark 13; and Luke 21 would be a great place to discuss these things. Or, why do you not give me scriptures you think that supports your assertions and let us go from there.  I truly believe the Olivet Discourse is the most important scriptures dealing with this subject and Christ obvious thought the same since it is the very subject he chose to give us as his last sermon on earth just before going to the cross~ so knowing this, we should not lightly pass over his Discourse which takes up BOTH Matthew 24 and chapter 25 which is a death blow to all preterist for Jesus definitely connected this discourse to his SECOND COMING at the end of this world as we know it. Actually Matthew 24 also presents his second coming and the end of the world.

I said above that Daniel was speaking of an overflowing or overspreading of abominations, consider:

Daiel 9:27~"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

We have already consider that it was CHRIST that confirmed the covenant with many (his elect) yet in the mist of the 70 weeks of prophecy, the MAN OF SIN will cause TRUE WORSHIPPERS to cease from the outward professing temple/churches in this world as they flee unto the mountains or a place ( homes ) where they CAN worship God in spirit and in truth, just as Jesus did in his day~he was NOT accepted in his own Father's house! Spiritual sacrifices and spiritual oblations are very seldom seen in the false churches that fill this world~there's an overspreading of abominations throughout this world in the places of worship, called the TEMPLES OF GOD by most folks, and even by the word of God. Not just one or two abominations but MANY, such abominations, because of the many abominations, God will make her desolate and burn her with fire.

[robycop3]

 There are many abominations, but the "abomination of desolation" is a specific event. It will be when the beast/antichrist enters the temple & proclaims himself God. (This, of course, would be an abomination to God if someone did it in an isolation booth!)

  I have PLENTY of biblical authority supporting the one great antichrist, with a false prophet as his deputy. Again, Daniel, Paul, & Rev all mention A MAN, not men.

  As for a new Jewish temple in Jerusalem, it must be built for the AOD to occur in. Its type occurred in the old temple when Antiochus Epiphanes profaned it, but Jesus said "When you see...", showing the TRUE AOD hadn't happened yet. And, since it didn't happen in the old temple, it must occur in a new one.

  The eschatological events simply haven't yet occurred.

[RB]

As for a new Jewish temple in Jerusalem, it must be built for the AOD to occur in. Its type occurred in the old temple when Antiochus Epiphanes profaned it, but Jesus said "When you see...", showing the TRUE AOD hadn't happened yet. And, since it didn't happen in the old temple, it must occur in a new one. The eschatological events simply haven't yet occurred.

First, you said:

Its type occurred in the old temple when Antiochus Epiphanes profaned it,

No, it first appeared in the garden of Eden, and from there all through the OT, especially seen in the OT Levitical priesthood. Hundred of scriptures could be provided to prove this to be so. Just one will do to prove my point:

Jeremiah 23:9-17~"Mine heart within me is broken because of the prophets; all my bones shake; I am like a drunken man, and like a man whom wine hath overcome, because of the LORD, and because of the words of his holiness. For the land is full of adulterers; for because of swearing the land mourneth; the pleasant places of the wilderness are dried up, and their course is evil, and their force is not right. For both prophet and priest are profane; yea, in my house have I found their wickedness, saith the LORD. Wherefore their way shall be unto them as slippery ways in the darkness: they shall be driven on, and fall therein: for I will bring evil upon them, even the year of their visitation, saith the LORD. And I have seen folly in the prophets of Samaria; they prophesied in Baal, and caused my people Israel to err. I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah. Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts concerning the prophets; Behold, I will feed them with wormwood, and make them drink the water of gall: for from the prophets of Jerusalem is profaneness gone forth into all the land. Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD. They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.

The very same thing here is exactly what Daniel, Christ, Paul, and John said WOULD COME in greater numbers than at any point in this world's history! It is called the times of Jacob's trouble when HE shall see the abomination sitting where he OUGHT NOT to sit, ruling in God's NT temple~calling good evil, and evil good, light darkness, and darkness light! ...sitting in the house of God just as they did in the scriptures quoted above. It will be a time when Jacob SHALL be overcome by the beast and will flee form the temple of God unto the mountian~or far away from such abomination that God WILL make desolate in his own time.  Jacob is one of the names of God's very elect.

As for a new Jewish temple in Jerusalem, it must be built for the AOD to occur in

Sir, please provide JUST ONE scripture to support your understanding, IF you have more than one, then, by all means, provide them, but I know 100% you cannot. The NT places of worship are where the man of sin will sit and rules claiming HIMSELF to be God, by calling good evil, and evil good...calling light, DARKNESS, and darkness, LIGHT~we SEE and hear this every day we live in this world. That's why I no longer am part of these outward professing temples of God~and will never be again.

The eschatological events simply haven't yet occurred.

Oh, they have INDEED occurred and are still occurring, what we do not know is to the extent God will allow the little season of Revelation to last, that is hidden from the saints.

[dpr]

The somewhat famous Preterist attempt to produce the AOD among the Roman army in 70 A.D. Jerusalem is another myth. Per the Jewish historian Josephus (100 A.D.), the 2nd temple in Jerusalem burned down before the Romans could get possession of it. A fire started within the temple, likely by the Jews to keep the Romans from capturing it.

So Preterism created a lie to try and make it happen by saying the Romans' sacrificed among the rubble of the destroyed temple, and saying that was the "abomination of desolation" (AOD) event Lord Jesus warned of. That was not the AOD though. And thus their vain attempt to try and make the Book of Revelation irrelevant for today.
Antiochus IV in 165 B.C. provided the blueprint pattern for the AOD at the end of this world. He went inside the 2nd temple in Jerusalem, sacrificed swine upon the altar, and setup an idol abomination to Zeus and demanded the Jews to false worship. Yet he did that about 200 years prior to Lord Jesus warning of the AOD in His Olivet discourse. And since Christ's Olivet discourse is covering the main SIGNS of the end of this world, that is the timing of the AOD He showed there.