The 666-YEAR-OLD SEA BEAST of Revelation 13

[3 Resurrections]

This is a topic I once briefly suggested as a possibility in the general discussion forum last year at this link: http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/general-discussion-forum/66-6-beast/  At that time, I thought it was an idea that showed real promise, but I didn't take time to give it serious study until recently, when a post by LaSpino3 triggered me to bring up the subject for some heavy examination.  That post by LaSpino3 is at this link: http://www.gracecentered.com/christian-forums/end-times-forum/timeline-for-head-of-gold/

I am going to repeat much of my comment to LaSpino3 here, using a more obvious subject line, since there are other comments I've posted elsewhere on this forum where I incorrectly interpreted this 666 number by using the classical preterist technique called "gematria".  This is a process where numerical values are assigned to letters of the alphabet.  I would now like to go on record as dismissing that gematria method for interpreting the 666 number, since I no longer think that was scripture's intended means for explaining John's use of this 666 number.  As time allows, I'll try to locate each comment I made in support of using "gematria" and do a retraction on this point where needed.

This number of 666 has morphed into such a notorious subject, that even those who know next to nothing of scripture are spooked by it, as if this number itself bore some kind of inherent power to inflict evil.  My last visit to my local bank to make a deposit is one example.  The transaction code on the bank receipt handed to me had the number 666 in it, for which the bank teller apologized profusely.

This kind of paranoia regarding the 666 number is a completely opposite reaction to the attitude John wanted his readers to have about this subject.  Instead, he wanted those who read his letters to exercise a bit of "wisdom" and UNDERSTAND what the 666 number meant.  It wasn't intended to be an esoteric puzzle with a near-impossible solution.  The ordinary man on the street in John's days, using a moderate amount of concentration, could figure this out by "CALCULATING" the number of the Sea Beast.  This WAS intended to be a simple kind of math problem, but it had absolutely nothing to do with "gematria".

Instead...

This 666 number was to be used to count the NUMBER OF YEARS this Sea Beast had already existed in the world, up to the time John was writing Revelation.  If we know when John was writing his apocalypse, (and I do), then we count backward 666 YEARS, and we arrive at the year the Rev. 13 Sea Beast first came into existence.  I have gone to considerable lengths of studying Revelation's internal witness to determine just when it was written.  (A link to just one of my comments on that subject of study is found at another of LaSpino3's posts at http://www.gracecentered.com/christian-forums/end-times-forum/when-was-revelation-written/ )

Simply put, we can narrow Revelation's date down by using two basic events: first of all, John was writing to his fellow-sufferers in the Asian churches who were then experiencing tribulation in Asia following the AD 57 Ephesian riot of the silversmiths in Acts 19.  This persecution was rapidly joined by the Jews in all Asia that were hostile to the faith, and tribulation for Christians abounded - so much so, that Paul said he had "despaired even of life" because of that tribulation (II Cor. 1:8 - written around AD 57). 

The anger of these Ephesian Jews of Asia against Paul’s teaching prompted their vicious attack on him in Jerusalem at the temple steps.  This led to Paul’s AD 58 trial before Felix, and his 2-year imprisonment until AD 60.  Their seething hatred for Paul did not fade during those years, because the Jews still desired for Felix to keep Paul bound, even after Felix’s term of office had expired in AD 60 (Acts 24:27).

This puts the first time bracket for Revelation at no earlier than this AD 57-60 tribulation period in Asia, which originated from Ephesus. 

Second, we have John's letter to the Laodicean church, which of necessity HAD to be written prior to the AD 60 Laodicean earthquake, when God was "about to spue them out of his mouth" for their self-satisfied, rather cocky attitude.  That gives us another time bracket for Revelation to be written no later than early AD 60.

Using these two time brackets, if Revelation was written sometime between late AD 57 - early AD 60, we count backward 666 years from that time to arrive at the Sea Beast's first year of existence around 607-606 BC.  For any one of John's readers who was aware of the basic history of the Jews, once they had made this simple calculation, they would have immediately recognized the notorious 607 - 606 BC date as the first time that Nebuchadnezzar had come to Jerusalem to take "the good figs" captive and to deport these various members of the Jewish nobility to Babylon - including Daniel and his three young friends.  What was even more important, this year of 607 BC was the first year that began the humiliating 70-year exile for the Jews, which figures largely in prophecy.

Nebuchadnezzar is described by Daniel's vision as being the first of 4 beasts - i.e., the lion.  He was also called the "head of gold" on Daniel's statue of A MAN.  This is important, because the 666 number of the Rev. 13 Sea Beast was called "the number of A MAN" (Rev. 13:18).  It's not simply a single, individual human male intended by this description, but refers to Daniel's *STATUE* OF A MAN.  In addition, the first lion beast (which represented Nebuchadnezzar) was made to "stand upon the feet AS A MAN", and "A MAN'S HEART" was given to it" (Daniel 7:4).

When we look at the Sea Beast in Rev. 13 that comes up out of the sea (just as all of Daniel 7's four individual beasts of lion, bear, leopard, and the "dreadful and terrible" 4th beast had all come up out of the "Great Sea" / the Mediterranean), this Sea Beast of Rev. 13 included features of the first three of Daniel's beasts; it was like a leopard, but with a bear's feet, and the mouth of a lion.  That means this Sea Beast of Rev. 13 was portrayed as having all three of these kingdoms subsumed into the last, 4th beast.  The Sea Beast was meant to include the historical record of Daniel's first 3 beast kingdoms, plus the current 4th kingdom of the Romans that was then in power under Nero in John's days.  A composite figure.

This shows us that the Rev. 13 Sea Beast's career had lasted ever since Nebuchadnezzar first came against Jerusalem, on down through the Medes and Persians kingdom, then the Greek kingdom, and finally the Roman empire, as of the time when John was writing Revelation, which had to be around AD 59.  All these kingdoms in one way or another had demanded or seduced homage from their subjects.  We are all familiar with the story of the three Hebrew men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who refused to bow on pain of death to Nebuchadnezzar's golden image.

Likewise, we all know the familiar story of Daniel, who ignored the command to pray to no one for 30 days except to Darius from the Medes and Persians kingdom (aka the bear / aka the silver kingdom), and was thrown into the lion's den for his refusal.  Mordecai was also another who refused to bow to Haman, the representative of this same kingdom.

As for the third Greek kingdom, (aka the leopard / aka the brass kingdom), the Maccabean era gave rise to some faithful ones who refused to obey Antiochus Epiphanes' orders to abandon their observance of Judaic law.  The famous "Hall of Faith" in Hebrews 11 lists these faithful ones as having "trials of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment...", etc.

Finally, by the time Christ came on the scene during the Roman phase of this Sea Beast, (aka the 4th "dreadful and terrible" beast / aka the iron kingdom), there was even more emphasis on giving homage to the Sea Beast.  This increased emphasis was due to the Judean Land Beast / the False Prophet who demanded of their fellow Israelites that they give homage to this Roman Sea Beast, and backed up their demands with threats of casting their opponents out of the synagogue if they did not comply.  The dilemma of whether or not to pay taxes to this Roman Sea Beast was the tempting question thrown at our Savior, who gave the perfect response when holding up the coin with the image and superscription of Caesar on it:  "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's".  Christ had no problem with submitting to the kingdom then in power by paying the taxes due, but the worship and loyalty of the heart was not to be handed over to this Roman version of the Sea Beast. 

These examples above show us that the Rev. 13 Sea Beast (an amalgamation of all 4 beasts in Daniel 7) had been in existence LONG BEFORE the AD 70 era.  It included the characteristics of A MAN'S FEET, and A MAN'S HEART (Daniel 7:4), the EYES OF A MAN (Daniel 7:8), and A MAN'S MOUTH, since it was given the ability to speak (Daniel 7:8 and Rev. 13:5).  All these human-type characteristics explain why John said that the 666 number was "the number of A MAN".

When we understand that this Sea Beast existed ever since 607 BC in Nebuchadnezzar's time, it gives us a better understanding of Revelation 20's list of those who did not give homage to the Sea Beast, or to his image, or to his mark during the millennium (Rev. 20:4).  This means that somehow the Revelation 20 millennium overlapped the lengthy career of the Sea Beast. 

Here are a couple questions:

At just what part of history does the Rev. 20 millennium overlap the Sea Beast's career?  And how much longer beyond those 666 YEARS did the Sea Beast continue to exist after AD 59?  I wish I could put the answers to these questions in a really fabulous graphic demonstration that's easy to follow, but instead, you guys are going to have to settle for a plain, unadorned list that breaks down the events surrounding this 666-YEAR period of the Sea Beast's existence, showing how it interlocks with other specific prophetic events.  The dates and events for many of these points I have discussed in various other places here on the forum, so I won't submit full proof of these assertions, unless specific challenges are made about any of them.   


967 BC until AD 33  -  the duration of the literal 1,000-year millennium of Rev. 20 with Satan's deception of the nations being limited by a "chain".  This ended with the "First Resurrection" in AD 33 and Christ's ascension that day, when Satan was cast out of heaven to be loosed on earth.  The millennium ended when Christ ascended, and the devil descended.  Simple.

467 BC  -  when God "revived His work in the *MIDST* OF THE YEARS" (the very center of the 967 BC - AD 33 millennium).  Ezra 9:9 provides this fulfillment year for the "revival" of the whole house of Israel, prophesied by Habakkuk 3:2, and the Ezekiel 37 prediction for the "dry bones" coming back to life in the post-exilic return.

607 BC until AD 59  -  the age of the Sea Beast at the time John was writing Revelation (666 YEARS up to that year)

607 BC until AD 70 at the Pentecost-day resurrection at Christ's second coming  -  the total life-span of the Rev. 13 Sea Beast, with its leopard, bear, and lion components. The fallen divine council members behind the kingdoms of this Sea Beast were simultaneously destroyed on that day, and the divine council of the "Watchers" over the nations was disbanded from then on.

AD 33 until AD 66  -  the "short time" and the "little season" Satan was loosed to deceive the nations again after he and his angels were cast out of heaven at Christ's resurrection-day ascension

May-Sept. AD 66  -  the last 5 months of ferocious, ramped-up demonic "locust" oppression mentioned in Rev. 9:5, 10

Sept. AD 66 until AD 70 Pentecost day  -  Satan and the entire demonic realm imprisoned in Jerusalem (Rev. 18:2 cp. Isaiah 24:21-23) along with the living Scarlet Wilderness Beast of Rev. 17 and the False Prophet / Land Beast of Rev. 13

AD 70 Pentecost day  -  the 1,335th day of Daniel 12:11-13, when Satan and the demonic realm were destroyed, and the divine council was disbanded for all time, with those kingdoms of the world given to Christ to rule with an unbroken rod of iron, the I Thess. 4 "rapture" of only the bodily-resurrected saints, the establishment of the New Heavens and the New Earth with the New Jerusalem manifested, and the GWT judgment of the dead, with destruction of the wicked dead after judgment.  No eternal torture chamber.

AD 70 Pentecost day until the close of the AD 70 siege  -  lots of "weeping and wailing" in Jerusalem's "Lake of Fire" as the city died for the second time after the Sea Beast under Nebuchadnezzar's leadership had killed it completely for the first time in 586 BC.  This period was the judgment of the "quick" (the living, as in II Tim. 4:1), who had been giving homage to the Sea Beast and had its mark.


There are many who would find fault with these dates and descriptions above, but there is at least one charge that cannot be leveled against this list - there are NO internal contradictions in it.  This is a seamless presentation, whether or not anyone can find agreement with it.  The Rev. 13 Sea Beast's 666-YEAR CAREER as of AD 59 coincides perfectly with the entire tricky Revelation 20 chapter that is so hotly debated.  In addition, it removes all the quibbling over the gematria process, and how to inject various names of individual men into the 666 number, (since it is Daniel's *STATUE* OF A MAN that it represents).  Above all, it is a perfectly simple, internally-based solution for the dating of Revelation, once and for all.

 



 

[Choir Loft]

Your post is very elaborate and exhaustive except that you have neglected a major point of consideration.

The Hebrew alphabet can be used as numeric representation as well as letters for words.   Recent discoveries also demonstrate that Hebrew can be used as musical notation.(1)   The language is quite robust as languages go....

Since Hebrew words and letters can represent numbers as well as names, the endless speculation as to the identity of the person or entity or animal suggested by six hundred sixty six(2) can not be determined with any certainty.(3)  That being established I submit the following to the reader for thoughtful consideration.   

Six is the Biblical number of man. 
Three is the Biblical number representing completeness. 
Thus the triple use of the number six may indicate the completed rule of mankind in general - or the end of such a rule - not necessarily a personality or world leader.  This interpretation isn't glamorous or thrilling by any stretch, but it may admittedly be closer to Biblical prophecy than most would deem to consider seriously.   Most folks prefer to dwell in fantasy and elaborate conjecture than Biblical interpretation of its own words.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(1) A number of people have successfully adapted passages from the book of Psalms, which we know were musical passages written by King David.   I've heard this music.  It is calming restful and quite beautiful.  It's calming effect is so soothing that I would not recommend it be played in your car during a long road trip.  It's great for the end of a nasty day at the office, however.

(2) Please note that I spelled out the number 666 here in English words.  Thus in our own native tongue a number can be represented by letters too.   This is not a foreign concept, but it is often abused with regard to establishing the identity of the mysterious figure of Judeo-Christian eschatology. 

(3) It should be remembered that most of the portions of the New Testament, except for the gospel of Luke and the Book of Acts, were written by Jewish converts (Messianic Jews) for Jews.  Except for the gospel of Matthew, originally written in Hebrew, all the books of the New Testament were written in Greek but referenced Old Testament books as well as Jewish tradition and law.   Therefore linguistic references need to apply so as to appropriately assign ancient meanings to modern interpretations.

[3 Resurrections]

Choir Loft  -  I would love to give a response to your comment, but unfortunately, this forum keeps kicking into a "not responding mode" after a couple sentences.  I'm not sure the reason.  It has been a problem for about 3 weeks. 

[thedrumchannell]

The Bible states that the number 666, is the number of His name. With that in mind, 666, at least used in the Bible should not be understood as a measurement of time.

[3 Resurrections]

thedrumchannell  -  We give a name to something or someone when it comes into existence, don’t we?  God named Adam on the day he was created, correct?  (Genesis 5:2 -  “Male and female created He them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day they were created.”). Adam called his wife “Woman” on the day she was formed from Adam’s rib and presented to him, correct?  Usually we name our children on the day they are born, yes?

To name something is the equivalent of dating the beginning of its existence.  Just so with the Sea Beast of Revelation 13.  With its corporate features of leopard, bear, and lion, it was a conglomerate picture of Daniel’s 4 beasts.  That means its history had existed ever since the first of those 4 individual beasts - namely, Nebuchadnezzar, king of the Chaldean / Babylonian empire -  had first come against Jerusalem and taken Daniel’s people captive in 607 BC.

That dates the LENGTH OF TIME  this creature had existed with the name of the “Beast From the Sea”.  It’s name had existed for six-hundred and sixty-six years.  Daniel’s interpreting angel in Dan. 7:17 identified all 4 beasts that came out of the sea as kingdoms that would “arise on the earth” (with power over the land of Israel), thereby dating the beginning of the Rev. 13 Sea Beast’s  existence.  This idea is not a stretch at all by biblical standards.  Just an unfamiliar way for you to be considering this number, but not an illogical one, especially since it does no violence to the context of Rev. 13. 

The “number of its name” is the length of time (consisting of six-hundred and sixty-six years) that this Sea Beast had an identified, named existence on the earth as of John’s writing date of Revelation in AD 59.

[dpr]

The riddle of 666 at the end of Rev.13, which is actually about the "another beast", not the Sea Beast of Rev.13:1-2, is actually very simple. Those with doctrines that get away from this simplicity are designed to lead astray, because the whole matter for the end of days is about deception by the coming Antichrist ("another beast").

Starting at Rev.13:11 forward, we are told about a 2nd beast. And it is a man, because we are told he will have 2 symbolic horns 'like' a lamb, but will speak as a dragon. That is a very important symbolic analogy, because it's pointing to our Lord Jesus as that "lamb", but to Satan himself as that "dragon". The Message is, if you can receive it, the dragon will appear as a Lamb, but will be speaking lies to deceive. Being more literal, it means Satan coming as the Lamb to play our Lord Jesus.

Does God's Word warn us about this, ie., about the dragon (Satan) coming in the role of our Lord Jesus? Yes. In Matthew 24:23-26, our Lord Jesus warned that if someone comes up to you and says 'Lo, here is Christ, or there', to not believe it. He said a false-Messiah ("false Christs" in the Greek) will come working great signs and wonders that IF possible, would deceive even His very elect. Apostle Paul gave a similar warning in 2 Thess.2 about the great apostasy and the man of sin coming to sit in the temple of God (in Jerusalem), and play God.

So when you get down to the end of Revelation 13 about the calculating the number 666, its Message is actually about the timing at the end when that dragon will appear on earth, working great signs, wonders, and raining fire down from heaven in the sight of men. He comes on the 6th seal, 6th trumpet, 6th vial. 666.

[dpr]

There are various traps designed by the doctrines of men, to deter us away from understanding that the 666 calculation is simply about the timing of Antichrist's appearing on earth.

Many will say, "How can it mean a time of the 6th seal, 6th trumpet, and 6th vial, when the seals happen first, then the trumpets, with the vials of God's wrath given last?" The reality is that our Lord Jesus only gave 7 main signs of the end in His Olivet discourse (Matt.24 & Mark 13). They are the seals, trumpets, and vials of His Revelation. And the very last sign He gave was that of His 2nd coming and gathering of His Church on the final day of this world (compare His coming and gathering of the saints in Matt.24 with Mark 13. They align with what Paul taught in 1 Thess.4 about His bringing the asleep saints with Him when He comes, and the saints still alive on earth being gathered to Him at that timing also).

So how does the 6th seal, 6th trumpet, 6th vial fit? In each section where the seals, trumpets, and vials were given, they each conclude with markers showing our Lord Jesus' 2nd coming.

In Rev.6 with the Seals, Jesus' appearing at His 2nd coming is shown by those who have fear seeing Him, and noting that right then His wrath has come, with every mountain and island moved out of its place (Rev.6:14-17). Those are signs of the final day of this world with Jesus' 2nd coming.

In Rev.11 with the trumpets, we are given details of events leading up to the 7th trumpet-3rd woe when all the kingdoms of this world become those of The Father and His Christ (Rev.11:13-18).

In Rev.16:15 on the 6th vial, our Lord Jesus is warning His Church on earth that He comes "as a thief", and keep our garments (promised white clothing) unless we appear naked and in shame (at His appearing). That shows that still on the 6th vial, His 2nd coming had not happened yet, but is getting ready to happen on the 7th vial. And on that 6th vial we are shown the unclean spirits out of the mouth of the dragon, showing Satan's deceptions of lies happening on that 6th vial. The 7th vial then is the battle of Armageddon, the final event of destruction on the "day of the Lord" that is to come "as a thief in the night".

There you have it. The true order of the seals, trumpets, and vials is that they overlap. One cannot simply read them sequentially how John wrote them down and expect that to be the exact same order the events occur. We must study all of God's Word to understand the proper order of the Revelation events. Even the Book of Isaiah includes a section of chapters scholars call 'the Apocalypse of Isaiah', because it parallels the signs of the last days leading up to the end of this world. How many brethren even know about that?

[3 Resurrections]

dpr  -  Well, I for one lean heavily on Isaiah’s apocalypse that describes the events at the end of the age towards the close of the first century.  Including the eradication of the demonic realm, as Isaiah predicted would happen at that time.

For your remarks related to the number 666...

Six-hundred and sixty-six was to be a calculated amount - not simply a triple repetition of the individual number of “6”.  Your theory that the 666 number represents the 6 seals, 6 trumpets, and 6 vials would only add up to a numerical value of 18 - not six-hundred and sixty-six. 

John told his readers to “count” or “calculate” this number of the Sea Beast.  Your theory of “6 and 6 and 6” doesn’t involve any calculation, so it can’t be a valid one.  It’s an interesting possibility to consider, but on closer comparison to the Rev. 13:18 context, not an acceptable interpretation.

[dpr]

dpr  -  Well, I for one lean heavily on Isaiah’s apocalypse that describes the events at the end of the age towards the close of the first century.  Including the eradication of the demonic realm, as Isaiah predicted would happen at that time.

For your remarks related to the number 666...

Six-hundred and sixty-six was to be a calculated amount - not simply a triple repetition of the individual number of “6”.  Your theory that the 666 number represents the 6 seals, 6 trumpets, and 6 vials would only add up to a numerical value of 18 - not six-hundred and sixty-six. 

John told his readers to “count” or “calculate” this number of the Sea Beast.  Your theory of “6 and 6 and 6” doesn’t involve any calculation, so it can’t be a valid one.  It’s an interesting possibility to consider, but on closer comparison to the Rev. 13:18 context, not an acceptable interpretation.

I didn't say the 666 calculation at the end of Rev.13 represents the 6 seals, trumpets, and vials. By your saying that, it shows me you don't understand the events of those seals, trumpets, and vials, nor the timing of them.

The 666 calculation is about the number of the beast, the 2nd beast of Revelation 13. It's about the TIMING OF HIS COMING according to the event flow, not some occultic gematria formula. Antichrist appears on the 6th seal, the 6th trumpet, and 6th vial.

[3 Resurrections]

dpr  -  The seals, trumpets, and vials are three repetitions all covering the same time period, just from different perspectives.  It’s a recapitulation pattern, with each of these three sets of judgments ending on the same point of the first-century calendar. 

The six-hundred and sixty-six figure is the number of years the Sea Beast had existed as of the year John wrote Revelation, and that was 59 AD.  Count backward 666 years, and you arrive at the year the Sea Beast first was identified in this world: i.e. 607 BC when Nebuchadnezzar deported the first Jews to Babylon and the 70 years of exile began. 

If you read my comment fully, you would see that I no longer acknowledge gematria as a viable means of interpreting this 666 figure. 

Multiple antichrists were a phenomenon that the first century was wrestling with.  It was due to the Jews trying to pin the Messiah identity on a military-type deliverer - a Messiah that was supposed to show up in the year AD 30, according to Daniel’s 70-week prophecy.  The further down the line those first-century Jews got from that AD 30 date when the Messiah was supposed to appear, the more desperate they got.  Since they refused to accept Jesus as the fulfillment of the Daniel 9:25 prophecy, there were many pseudo-Christs  (among the Zealots especially) that tried to prove they were the Messiah fulfillment. 

The modern-day perception of what you think the “Anti-Christ” is, dpr, does not take into consideration what the title meant to the believers of THAT generation.

And the Sea Beast was NOT the Anti-christ.  Two different identities entirely.  Neither was the Land Beast of Rev. 13 the Anti-christ.  Neither was the Scarlet Beast of Rev. 17 the Anti-christ.  The one particular Anti-Christ of II Thess 2 out of many anti-christ contenders for the Messiah role was a Zealot named Menahem.  This Zealot leader actually got into the temple in AD 66, dressed in royal regalia stolen from Herod’s collection at Masada, and presented himself in the temple as King of the Jews.  He was killed by another Zealot rival after a few weeks.  The one who had restrained him up until that time was the high priest Ananias Ben Nebedeus, who Menahem had murdered and “taken out of the way” to advance his claim to the Messiah role.

Modern-day interpretations of this one particular Anti-christ character of II Thess. 2 have enlarged his role into someone with supernatural evil capabilities.  You need to study your first-century history a bit more carefully, dpr.  Especially since everything prophetic in Revelation with one exception (Rev. 10:4) was going to SOON happen to that first-century generation. 

[tiptopsaidhe]

//To name something is the equivalent of dating the beginning of its existence.  Just so with the Sea Beast of Revelation 13.  With its corporate features of leopard, bear, and lion, it was a conglomerate picture of Daniel’s 4 beasts.  That means its history had existed ever since the first of those 4 individual beasts - namely, Nebuchadnezzar, king of the Chaldean / Babylonian empire -  had first come against Jerusalem and taken Daniel’s people captive in 607 BC.//

3R, I've been following many of your comments on various forums for the last week or so.  I am intrigued and excited about much of it.  Then, I came across the one above.  Maybe you can help me clarify.  Whether one subscribes to Calvary being in the year 31 or 33, if we subtract 486.5 years from Daniels ch.9 prophecy, that puts us at/around 457bc.  If we add 70 years of captivity to 457, we get to 526bc when the captivity began.  607 is +/- 80 years off, if we use Calvary as the starting point of the calculator.  Can you shed some insight as to where this 607 date comes?

[3 Resurrections]

tiptopsaidhe  -  First of all, you have all my gratitude for being willing to patiently read through what I’ve written here and elsewhere.  You don’t know how encouraging that is after having to leave a church where there really wasn’t much of an outlet for discussing these issues.  We were all meant for shared, face-to-face fellowship of some kind in the body of Christ, and I don’t have that anymore.

It sounds as if you are as particular about dates in scripture as I try to be.  They are tricky things to sift through, with calendar disparities and various inexact histories lending confusion.  However, I believe it’s a field of study that is very faith-confirming, since we serve an on-time God that can call the end from the beginning and fulfill his prophecies to the letter.

There are a couple things that I think are throwing off your calculations here: namely, the 457 BC date that people have often assigned to the decree that started the 70-week prophecy.  It was really the 4th decree given by the Persian kings that dates the start of the 70-week prophecy of Daniel.  And that year for the 4th decree was in 454 BC.  You may want to read a couple post comments I have given on this forum regarding how to prove that date: 

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/correct-decree-457bc-or-444bc/  comment #20

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/483-years/  comment #2 and following

Unless I have a very good reason to think otherwise, I usually depend on the meticulous work that the dating in Ussher’s Annals presents.  The man did his homework well, as far as I can tell.

We know there were several stages of Nebuchadnezzar deporting the Jews, starting with the “good figs” being taken in 607 BC (such as Daniel, etc.), and culminating in Jerusalem being torched and the Jews as a nation destroyed around 586 BC.

It also took a period of several stages to bring about a revival of the nation of the Jews in the post-exilic return.  That means there was a gap of time between the end of the 70 years of exile when Cyrus authorized their return (when he gave the first decree in 537 BC), and the year of the last, 4th decree by Artaxerxes I in 454 BC, (which started the new, 70-week prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27).

So, the period of years between the 1st and the 4th decrees explains the time differential that you have mentioned in your comment.  If I had you in front of me, I would be able to sketch a pretty good sort of Larkin imitation, picturing the layout of all the dates and how they interlock.   Actually, if you pm me here on the forum with an email address, I could probably scan and attach a graphed timeline, if you’re interested.  And all the dates for the major prophetic events in history have meshed perfectly with one another, from the creation date until the final 3rd resurrection 7,000 years later.   I’m a visual sort of person myself: gotta see it in black and white before it makes sense to me.

[tiptopsaidhe]

You see the problem, though, right?  If we just utilize a calculator, we easily get to 457 bc.  If we want to believe the God of the bible to be a truth-teller, then we know that the decree came from Cyrus, just as Isaiah said it would happen. 

Isa 44:28  Who says of Cyrus, ‘He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure,’ even saying of Jerusalem, ‘She will be built;’ and of the temple, ‘Your foundation will be laid.’”
Isa 45:1  Yahweh says to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have held, to subdue nations before him, and strip kings of their armor; to open the doors before him, and the gates shall not be shut:
Isa 45:2  “I will go before you, and make the rough places smooth. I will break the doors of brass in pieces, and cut apart the bars of iron.
Isa 45:3  I will give you the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that you may know that it is I, Yahweh, who call you by your name, even the God of Israel.
Isa 45:4  For Jacob my servant’s sake, and Israel my chosen, I have called you by your name. I have given you a title, though you have not known me.

Ezr 1:1  Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying,
Ezr 1:2  Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah.

And we know God was precise in the number of years to add for the captivity...

Jer 25:12  And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations.
Jer 29:10  For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place.

Most of our dating comes from Ptolemy and his "spreadsheets" (for lack of a better word) to date various events.  He wasn't actually "At" the events, just predicted them based on his formulas.  It turns out he was wrong...by about 80 years.
" Dr. Robert R. Newton, noted physicist, in his book: The Crime of Claudius Ptolemy writes: “In Chapter VII.4 of the Syntaxis [Almagest], Ptolemy says that he has measured the coordinates of all the stars that it is possible to observe, down to stars of the sixth magnitude. He identifies the instrument with which he made the measurements, he describes the procedure that was followed, and he presents the alleged results in his star catalogue. However, we proved in Chapter IX above that the coordinates were not obtained by measurement at all. They were not obtained with the instrument that Ptolemy claims to have used, they were not obtained by the method that he claims to have used, and they were not obtained by any other instrument or procedure of observation. They were fabricated, and Ptolemy lied about what he did” (p. 353)."

I've read, in other places, where you've written about the 1000 years between Solomon's temple and Calvary, which caught my attention and really excited me.  I'm hopeful the dating utilized for that wasn't the same one used to get to the 607 number.  Using 457 as the decree of Cyrus and 526/7 as the beginning of the Babylonian captivity, does that change the dates of the 1000 years?

[tiptopsaidhe]

//So, the period of years between the 1st and the 4th decrees explains the time differential that you have mentioned in your comment//

It actually doesn't.  There were to be 4 Persian kings over a 49-year period of building the temple, according to the Daniel 9 prophecy.  Daniel doesn't tell us that the Persian's would maintain power for only 49 years, but he is clear that the temple and city walls would be rebuilt in 49 years.  So, 80 years can't pass trying to decide which of 4 Persian kings not named Cyrus would be accredited with the "decree of Cyrus." 

[3 Resurrections]

tip-top, working on a studied response for your comment, because I wanted to check into the link you gave.  Been reading a bit on the gentleman’s site, and he seems to be a decent guy with good motives and an approachable manner in his responses to his comment section.  Saw a few irregularities in his reasoning, but also some points of agreement, too.  I’ll get back to this post this evening, if I can.

[3 Resurrections]

tiptop, there’s one point I would like to emphasize before I post this page of scribble I have in front of me.  We know that Cyrus issued a release of the children of Israel and gave instructions regarding timber, stones, and the vessels for the temple.  None of these items are mentioned in the Daniel 9:25 prophesied decree.  The reason for that is because, by the time Dan. 9:25’s particular decree was to be given, the temple would already have been a completed structure. 

Here’s a question: Why does Cyrus still have to be living for the terms of Cyrus’ decree to be enacted?  If the laws of the Medes and Persians could not be changed, (Dan. 6:12, 15, and Esther 1:19), then all that the subsequent Persian kings were doing was REAFFIRMING CYRUS’ DECREE those last three times.  This is a point that your link also made, and I agree with.

It’s permissible for us to divide them up and call one the Cyrus decree, another the Darius decree, and the last ones Artaxerxes’ 2 decrees, but in reality they were ALL echoing the original Cyrus decree given in 537 BC, each of them adding some of their own instructions to assist in the original decree being implemented.

You remember, of course, when they made a search for the original Cyrus decree at the treasure house in Babylon (Ezra 5:17 - 6:1-5).  All Darius did on that occasion was send to Tatnai the governor a copy of the original Cyrus decree confirming it, along with added injunctions to speed up and augment the original decree with provisions for sacrifices in Jerusalem.  Certain threats were given if they altered any of his own injunctions or the original Cyrus decree. 

The 454 BC date for the 4th decree made in Artaxerxes I’s 20th regnal year is NOT based on Ptolemy’s Canon.  If you check Ussher’s Annals for the 474 BC date, the editors inject a comment in the text that clearly stresses this point, and mention new archaeological evidence that has come to light since Ussher was first published, proving that Ussher’s 454 BC date was on target.  That is because Artaxerxes I shared a nine-year co-regency with his father starting in 474 BC that was not considered by Ptolemy when he posited his date for the 4 decrees.  That one fact alone shuffles the usual dates that are given for the decrees. 

The walls of Jerusalem were both started and finished within 52 days during the very same year that Artaxerxes I gave his second decree to Nehemiah (in 454 BC, the 20th year of his reign - Neh. 2:1).  The wall was of particular concern in this last affirmation of Cyrus’ decree, because neither the city nor the temple would be secure without it. 

Nehemiah 2:7-8 mentions the wall specifically.  “Moreover I said unto the king, if it please the king, let letters (decrees) be given me to the governors beyond the river, that they may convey me over till I come into Judah.  And A LETTER into Asaph, the keeper of the king’s forest, that he may give me TIMBER to make beams for the gates of the palace which appertained unto the house (the temple), and FOR THE WALL OF THE CITY...And the king granted me, according to the good hand of my God upon me”. 

So much importance was given to Jerusalem’s wall, that Nehemiah dedicated several chapters just to describe its construction and its final completion after those 52 days of labor (Neh. 6:15) under the troublesome threats of their enemies.  These were the “troublous times” that Daniel 9:25 referred to concerning the street and the wall in Dan. 9:25.  Those who built the wall had every man keep his sword at his side for defense as they built, so violent was the hatred of their enemies who did not want this wall completed.  “Troublous times”, indeed.

Tiptop, I believe both you and your link are dating the START of the first 49 years of the 70-week prophecy from the time Cyrus issued his decree in the first year of his reign.  However, I believe that the Dan. 9:25 decree had to involve the street and wall being completed at the same time the decree was given - which it was.  The specific conditions of the Dan. 9:25 decree included instructions to BUILD AND RESTORE JERUSALEM - not just the temple.  The restored security of a walled Jerusalem was not completed until the 454 BC year’s decree when the wall was finished.

Everyone was in attendance that 454 BC year during the Feast of Tabernacles when Ezra gave a reading of the law, and the congregation renewed a covenant with God, and voluntarily entered into a curse if they did not obey that law (Neh. 10:29).  They met in the street in front of the temple on the day Ezra read the law before them (Neh 8:1).  This tells us that the street was also completed by then, exactly as the provisions of the Dan. 9:25 decree predicted.

Cyrus may have jump-started the process of reviving the nation, but God records that this revival process was also due to the encouragement of the other kings of Persia as well.  Ezra 6:14 (LXX) includes all the Persian kings that passed a confirmation of the terms of Cyrus’ decree.  “And the elders of the Jews built up, and finished the house, by the decree of the God of Israel, and by the decree of Cyrus, AND Darius, AND Arthasastha, KINGS” (plural) “of the Persians.”

Ezra again acknowledged this plural group of Persian kings that assisted in reviving the nation in Ezra 9:9.  “For we were bondsmen; yet our God hath not forsaken us in our bondage, but hath extended mercy unto us in the sight of the KINGS of Persia” (plural), “to give us a reviving, to set up the house of our God, and to repair the desolations thereof, and to give us a wall in Judah and Jerusalem.” 

All these featured renovations of a restored Jerusalem had to be included in that Dan. 9:25 decree - not just the temple.  So, I would slightly alter your quote, tiptop: “...that the temple and the city walls would be rebuilt in 49 years...”  I would change it to “...that the temple and city walls would FINISH being built by the beginning of the first 49 years of the 70 week prophecy...”

Tiptop, you asked if the same Ussher dating for 607 BC was used to figure the 967 BC date for Solomon’s temple foundation.  No, Ussher gives a different date for that occasion (1012 BC).  I don’t agree with his date there, because I am relying instead on Menander of Ephusus’ record of the Tyrian kings with their regnal dates (Hiram in particular) to prove the 967 date for Solomon’s temple foundation that was laid with Hiram’s help.  Josephus mentions Menander’s list of kings in “Against Apion”, I am told. 

If we declare a 457 date to be the decree given by Cyrus, it throws the 490 years off by 3 years, as well as the literal 1,000-year millennium by the same amount.  Both major prophecies must align properly with each other, and fit precisely around the crucifixion date in the middle of the 70th week, as well as the year Christ started His miraculous ministry as the previously-anointed Messiah.  They all must interlock exactly. 

The Jews had this figured out to the very year - they knew their Daniel 70-week timeline - which is why they sent a delegation from the Pharisees to John in the AD 30 year, asking John if he were the Messiah.  The entire nation was musing about the possibility of John being the revelation of the Messiah that year, and were “in expectation” (Luke 3:15) at the beginning of that 70th week, knowing that the Messiah would “confirm the covenant with many” during that 7-year period between AD 30 - 37. 

AD 30 was also the year John was imprisoned by Herod, fulfilling what John had said, “ He must increase, but I must decrease.”  So, the last week of the 70 weeks runs this way:

AD 30  -  miraculous ministry of Jesus started at Cana
AD 33  -  Christ’s crucifixion at Passover
AD 37  -  Paul’s temple vision, when God commissioned him to transfer the evangelistic emphasis from the Jews to the Gentiles

AD 37 was exactly 490 years back to 454 BC, when the 4th decree was given in the 20th year of Artaxerxes reign (Neh. 2:1), and also when the wall was completed and dedicated, just as Daniel 9:25 predicted. 

I can’t stress that enough: the particular decree of Daniel 9:25 does NOT put the emphasis on the temple there, (because by the time of the 4th decree, the temple was already restored).  However, Dan. 9:25 DOES specifically mention the street and the wall (begun and finished in that same year as the 454 BC decree.)

[tiptopsaidhe]

Greetings 3R.  Thanks for the input.  Luke 3:23 has Jesus "about" 30 years old when He began His ministry, which I read as 29, yet not to his 30th birthday.  We know by the 4 Passovers, then, that he was 33 when He was killed.  We know that the time of His baptism was a year or so after John, noted in Luke 3:1 as the 15th years of Tiberius, so Jesus' ministry would have begun in the 16th year of Tiberius, or 27AD.  That would seem to put Calvary at 31AD.  It's somewhat disturbing to me that we can't, as Christians, come to a point of agreement on virtually any dates.  If can pin down one date, we could go from there.  Some say Herod died in 4BC, others say 1BC, some date this eclipse, others that eclipse, etc.

Further, we can't seem to agree to which Cyrus both Isaiah and Daniel were referring.  The language seems  rather clear.  "In the 1st year of Cyrus..."
Ezr 1:1  Now in the first year of Cyrus king of the Persians, that the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremias might be fulfilled, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of the Persians, and he issued a proclamation through all his kingdom, and that in writing, saying, 
Ezr 1:2  Thus said Cyrus king of the Persians, The Lord God of heaven has given me all the kingdoms of the earth, and he has given me a charge to build him a house in Jerusalem that is in Judea. 
To me, that seems to say that Cyrus said what Isaiah said he would say in the first year of his reign over Babylon. 

Daniel, then, tells us the countdown to the Messiah.  From the decree by to rebuild the temple to Messiah would be 483 years...
Dan 9:25  “Know therefore and discern that from the going out of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem to the Anointed One, the prince, will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks.

We don't even need to utilize Calvary as the starting point, though it is the most important date in the history of time.  We could just use 27AD, from Tiberius.  It still gets to 457BC as the date of the decree, and 527BC as the date of Babylonian captivity.

I appreciate much of your thoughts and the work you put into backing them up.  I read the Menander of Ephesus Wiki page to see that date of 967BC for Solomon's temple.  It's a romantic thought about the 1000 years to the resurrection of Jesus, but it doesn't seem to fit.  It comes closer to fitting the end of the 70th week.  I don't know enough about the Jewish calendar to know what the feast day is at the end of the 70th week to see if it aligns with the date of 967BC to make it 1000 years.  Maybe it regards the 1335 days, or something along those lines.

Thanks for the help and the insights.  I'm not a partaker of the other "Xerxes" decrees' theories, though.

[3 Resurrections]

tiptop, you didn’t ask for another dump-truck load in a reply, so my apologies if this turns into that.

Here’s the point where you and I diverge on our dates.  Look at Luke 3:22-23 very carefully.  It does not say that the Lord’s MINISTRY started when he was about 30.  It says that He was BAPTIZED when He was about 30.  Not the same thing.  There was a gap of 3 years after Christ’s baptism, and before He performed His first public miracle in Cana, causing His disciples to believe in Him (John 2:1&11). 

He was anointed by baptism in AD 27.  Then IMMEDIATELY Jesus was driven into the wilderness for temptation by the Devil (Mark 1:12-13).  Then Luke 4:13 says that the Devil “LEFT HIM FOR A SEASON.”  That “season” lasted for 3 years while Christ taught in the synagogues (Luke 4:14-15). 

Then, in AD 30, at the time John was put into prison, Christ announced in Mark 1:14-15 that “THE TIME (kairos - season) IS  FULFILLED, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent ye and believe the gospel.”  Jesus would have been 33 years old then at the beginning of His ministry in AD 30, the year which was the beginning of the 70th week. 

Christ referred to this beginning year of the 70th week in His Nazareth synagogue message found in Luke 4:16-21.  Reading the Isaiah passage, He recited “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because He hath anointed me” (3 years earlier) “to preach deliverance to the captives...to preach the ACCEPTABLE YEAR OF THE LORD...And He began to say unto them, THIS DAY IS THIS SCRIPTURE FULFILLED in your ears.” 

The description of that particular fulfilled year being “acceptable” is translated in Greek as meaning that God looked on that year with special favor for some reason.  And that year was in place as Christ was speaking to His synagogue audience.  Combined with the Mark 2:14-15 reference, I believe these verses are all pointing out that the “favored”, “fulfilled time”, or season was specifically speaking about the first year of Daniel’s 70th week that had begun in AD 30 when Jesus was 33 years old.  That would mean Christ was about 36 1/2 years old when He was crucified in AD 33. 

There is a scriptural pattern for this type of 3-year “novitiate” period before someone is formally inaugurated for their position of service.  Paul did the same with his 3 years of training in Arabia.  Also, ministers of the NT gospel were to first be “proved” before being given the care of a body of believers.  “Not a novice”, lest they fall into pride. 

Joseph sat in a prison for almost that long before he was raised to power over Egypt.  Also, even Christ did not immediately launch His public, miraculous ministry as soon as He was baptized.  Christ went through a testing period of 3 years first, which started immediately after His baptism with the  40-day wilderness temptation by the Devil.  After a 3-year period of providing a perfectly consistent witness to His own people, Christ’s first miracle at Cana launched His 3 1/2 years of public ministry. 

Personally, I am settled positively on the AD 33 date for the crucifixion.  Both dates for the millennium and the 70-week prophecy period are anchored to the pivotal year of the crucifixion and First Resurrection of Christ, the Firstfruits.  An AD 33 crucifixion date determines the 70-week prophecy, BEGINNING in 454 BC (in the 20th year of Artaxerxes I’s reign, when the wall was completed), and ENDING with AD 37, when Paul received a commission by God in the Temple to evangelize the Gentiles.  That was at the end of Paul’s 3-year period of “novitiate” training in Arabia.

I have no debate with Isaiah predicting that Cyrus would issue a decree to build the temple in the first year of his reign - a decree that was given directly following the ending year of the 70-year exile period.  But the restoration of the nation of Israel was intended to be a PROCESS, using ALL the Persian kings (plural) to complete this.  It’s just like the Ezekiel 37 prophecy of the valley of dry bones; it represented a resurrection process of several stages.

First, Ezekiel prophesied to the dry bones, and they started rattling and coming together, bone to bone.  Then sinews, flesh, and skin covered them.  Finally, Ezekiel’s last prophecy to the wind brought the breath of totally-restored life to those bodies, and they stood on their feet - a very great army. 

In the same manner, the whole exiled house of Israel first received a decree from Cyrus to come together - bone to bone, so to speak - in the first wave of returning exiles.  Then the decrees of Darius and Artaxerxes I put “sinews, flesh, and skin” on these “skeletons” of an Israelite nation.  The added encouragement and assistance (backing up Cyrus’ original decree) given by these other Persian kings enabled them to “flesh out” the provisions of the original Cyrus document, so to speak. 

Finally, the power of the Spirit breathed a fully-restored life into that nation as they “stood on their feet” before God in the 7th month of 454 BC during the Feast of Tabernacles season.  At that time, the nation and its leaders entered into a covenant, swearing that they would obey God’s laws (Neh. 10:28). 

Once the nation had fully come to life again that 454th year, the 70-week prophecy countdown to the Messiah began.  483 years later in AD 30, Christ started His public, miraculous ministry at 33 years of age (3 years after His AD 27 baptism when He was about 30 years of age).  It was just as Christ had said in AD 30 after John’s imprisonment: “The TIME IS FULFILLED” (kairos - the season).  That meant the 483-year portion of Daniel’s prophecy was over, and the last “week” of 7 years had begun at that point.

Again, there’s no mention in Daniel 9:25 of a decree to rebuild the temple, as you have stated.  It was a decree to RESTORE and  TO BUILD  *JERUSALEM*.  There would be 483 years from that restoration of JERUSALEM (the intact, fortified city, with its street and rebuilt wall) until Messiah the Prince, who would “confirm the covenant with many” of Daniel’s people for 7 years until AD 37.  The conditions of that Daniel 9:25 decree are quite specific, and mention detailed items that Cyrus’ original decree did not bring up. 

As for the year and month that Solomon’s temple foundation was laid, we find that mentioned in I Kings 6:1, 37.  Some sources give 968 BC for Solomon’s temple foundation, and some give 967 BC for it, but one of them is exactly 1,000 years until AD 33 at Christ’s Passover crucifixion and resurrection. 

In case I wasn’t clear on where I stand, it was not the END of the 70th week that came at the end of the millennium: it was the MIDDLE of the 70th week, (at the crucifixion and First Resurrection), that marked the end of the millennium.

For the 1335th day you brought up, that day was actually the Pentecost day of AD 70, when Christ bodily returned for the resurrection of the saints.  That 1335th day was 45 days after Titus arrived with his armies at Jerusalem’s gates, just after Passover week started.  And as Daniel 12:11-12 foretold, it was 1335 days from the very day Cestius Gallus and his army engaged the Zealot forces at Jerusalem on October 6th, AD 66 - during the Fall season when the twice-daily sacrifice given for the empire and the emperor had been “taken away” by Eleazar, son of Ananias Ben Nebedeus.  If you are at all curious on that point, I covered my view of the 1335th day in greater detail at reply #19 & #21 at the following link:
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/preterist-forum/the-paradigm-for-the-three-resurrections/

I don’t mind a bit of friendly wrangling over dates, tiptop.  Even my son-in-law has spotted some errors on my list of dates, and has helped me correct them.  And someone else’s comment on this forum led me to straighten out my dates for the fulfilled 2,300 numbered prophecy of Daniel 8:14, for which I am grateful. 

By the way, I am enjoying Eddie’s blog that you introduced me to.  For example, he’s the first person I’ve run into that believes the same as I do that Golgotha was the crest of the Mount of Olives location.  Interesting biblical proof Eddie gave to arrive at that conclusion.  So thanks for that link, tiptop, even though forum rules require that no links provided are allowed to stay up until you’ve posted a bit first.  Thankfully, you don’t have to prove yourself for a 3-year “novitiate” period like Jesus and Paul before you can include links!
 

[tiptopsaidhe]

Hi 3R.  I'm ok with the long replies.  I am intrigued and hungry to learn.

I can't go with a 3 year gap between the baptism of Jesus and the beginning of His ministry.  Daniel's prophecy said it would take 69 weeks to get "unto" the time of the Messiah.  V.24 lists His anointing would take place within the 70 weeks, but 69 are used up in the "unto the Messiah" phrase.  That, to me, says that when He is baptized in Luke 3:21 (being about 30 years old) would have to mark the beginning of the 70th week to fulfill 9:24.  His anointing and making reconciliation for iniquity seem to have to fit in the same 70th week to make Dan 9:24 work truthfully.  This "gap" would necessarily mean that he was baptized in week 69.  Is that what you're suggesting?  He was baptized in week 69, then Luke 4:21 begins the 70th week?

You wrote: //In case I wasn’t clear on where I stand, it was not the END of the 70th week that came at the end of the millennium: it was the MIDDLE of the 70th week, (at the crucifixion and First Resurrection), that marked the end of the millennium.//

No, you were clear about the timing of the millennium.  If I were to ask you to set the 454 date aside for a moment and consider the 457 date, (allowing Jesus' anointing and His making reconciliation for iniquity to both fit in the 70th week as pointed out above), what evidence (for lack of a better phrase) would there be that the millennium ended at the end of the 70th week?  What would have happened, a feast or an event like Stephen's death, that would have put an end to the millennium and the 70th week?    (not knowing if you're catching my drift.)

[3 Resurrections]

Hi again tiptop, Got to give you kudos for plodding through my pile of paragraphs.  When trying to establish a view that goes against the flow of traditional thought, it tends to take a great deal of laying groundwork on a solid scriptural foundation, and even then most of the time that view is casually brushed off and ignored.  I’m not going anywhere, though.  I like this site and the folks that hang around here.

You asked if I am suggesting that Jesus was baptized in the 69th week, with Luke 4:21 announcing the start of the 70th week.  YES.  And YES.  To prove that, I rely on the book of John.  The book of John starting at chapter 1:19 is set in the year AD 30, at the beginning of that 70th week.  John sees Jesus showing up to observe him baptizing, and tells everyone there (in paraphrased language), “Hey everybody, LOOK!! There’s the Lamb of God that I baptized a while back.  When I baptized Him back then, I saw the dove of the Holy Spirit descend and remain on Him, and that was the sign I was told to look for.  And that Spirit I have already seen and I have already born witness to this, that Jesus is the Son of God.”  If you read this account in the Interlinear version, you stand a better chance of catching the PAST TENSE which John spoke with at this point.  He was describing a baptism that he had ALREADY PERFORMED EARLIER - 3 years earlier to be exact.

This scene in John 1 is NOT - repeat, NOT - the scene of Jesus being baptized.  The context shows us that it isn’t, by telling us that THE VERY NEXT DAY, John saw Jesus again, walking nearby, when John again testified “Behold, the Lamb of God!” to two of his own disciples. 

If this truly was the scene of Jesus’ baptism in AD 27, then Jesus would not even have been there that next day.  He would have been in the wilderness enduring the start of the 40 days of temptation.  Remember, as soon as Jesus was baptized, the Spirit drove Him IMMEDIATELY into the wilderness (Mark 1:12).  There was no waiting around to sign up a few disciples for a couple days, knocking off a quick miracle at Cana on the third day, and then ducking out of there to head for the wilderness for 40 days.  Wrong chronology.

Of John’s two disciples present on that next day who ended up transferring their allegiance to Jesus, Andrew went to his brother Simon and told him, “WE HAVE FOUND THE MESSIAS, which is being interpreted, the Christ (or THE ANOINTED).”  This was Jesus being manifested as Messiah the Prince: the already-Anointed one, which fulfills the Daniel 9:25 verse in this year of AD 30. 

Two days after John had first identified Him as the Lamb of God, Jesus was in Galilee and called Philip to follow Him.  Philip then went to his brother Nathaniel and told him that “WE HAVE FOUND HIM...of whom Moses in the law and the prophets did write...” (including the prophet Daniel).  That same day, Philip got his brother Nathaniel to come to Jesus, who then openly and immediately confessed Jesus as being the Son of God and the King of Israel.

In the John 1& 2 context, on the third day after John had hailed Jesus as the Lamb of God, Jesus was then in attendance in Cana at the wedding where He turned the water into wine.  This first miracle that He performed “manifested forth His glory; and His disciples believed on Him.” (John 2:11)

Shortly after this, at the Passover in the Feast day, “many believed in His name, when they saw the miracles which He did.” (John 2:23).  John did NO miracles during his baptism ministry (John 10:41), but when Jesus was finally manifested openly as being Daniel’s prophesied Messiah, His sudden burst of miracles starting in that first year of the 70th week stood out in glorious contrast, making His identity unmistakable as the Son of God.  These miracles did NOT start at His baptism.  And undoubtedly, His first one was at Cana (John 2:11), in the year AD 30, which happened to be three years after John had baptized Him in AD 27.

Tiptop, I myself was never taught about a 3-year gap between Jesus’ baptism and the start of His miraculous ministry, but when I put all the gospel accounts together, that gap shows up in the chronology, whether it’s the traditional view or not.

The ENDING year of the millennium  is also set in stone.  The Revelation 20 context demands that it END at the occasion of the “First Resurrection”, at the same time for the END of Satan’s literal 1,000-year period of being restricted.  It all swings on the correct definition of the event called the “First Resurrection” - and it WAS a SINGLE EVENT that happened in real time.

The resurrection of Christ as the “FIRSTfruits” undeniably identifies that resurrection as the FIRST one.  That means the literal 1,000-year millennium ENDED with Christ’s “First Resurrection”.  And that resurrection of Christ HAD to be in the MIDDLE of the 70th week, according to the Daniel 9:27 “week”, with Christ (the “messenger of the covenant”) confirming the covenant with Daniel’s people for those 7 years.  So the millennium HAD to end at the AD 33 year, because that was the very MIDDLE of the 70th week. 

If we don’t get the date for the MIDDLE of the 70th week correct, then all the rest of our fulfilled prophetic dates are messed up.  You spoke truly, tiptop, when you said that the crucifixion date was “the most important date in the history of time”.  Amen, and Amen.  All our hopes hang on that crucifixion AND bodily resurrection event of Christ’s.

[tiptopsaidhe]

Hi 3R.  You wrote...// The book of John starting at chapter 1:19 is set in the year AD 30.//  What happens in the 15th year of Tiberius (26AD), as noted in Luke 3:3, then?  Luke 3:4-6 suggests that this is the fulfillment of Isaiah.

[3 Resurrections]

Tiptop, you asked “What happens in the 15th year of Tiberius (26 AD), as noted in Luke 3:3 then?”

As you said, Luke 3:3 was indeed the introduction of John as the “voice in the wilderness” that Isaiah 40:3 prophesied would come.  John had a ministry that lasted from that AD 26 date when “the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness” (Luke 3:2), until AD 30 when He was imprisoned by Herod, the tetrarch of Galilee.  John was kept in prison for two years, and then beheaded in AD 32. 

So John’s ministry of baptizing and preaching repentance ended in AD 30 when Jesus took up the same message and started preaching “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand” (or present), after John was imprisoned. 

You can catch this biographical description of John’s ministry in Acts 13:23-25.  “Of this man’s seed (David) hath God according to His promise raised unto Israel a Savior, Jesus:”  (When did God raise up Jesus for Israel?  The rest of the sentence as follows gives the answer.)  “When John had FIRST preached *BEFORE* HIS COMING the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.”  This means Jesus was baptized - in AD 27 - and raised up as a Savior *BEFORE* HIS OWN *COMING*. 

And just when was Jesus’ “coming”?  The next verse tells us.  “And as John FULFILLED HIS COURSE”, (at the END of John’s ministry period - not at the FIRST), “ he said, Whom think ye that I am?  I am not He.  But behold, THERE COMETH ONE *AFTER ME* whose shoes of His feet I am not worthy to loose.”  (This is a direct quote of John 1:20 - “I am not the Christ.” - and of John 1:27 - “He it is, who COMING AFTER ME is preferred before me, whose shoe’s latchet I am not worthy to unloose.” 

The very next day after this statement, John 1:29 says that “John seeth Jesus COMING UNTO HIM, and saith, Behold, the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.”

Then, on the third day after this pronouncement of John’s, Jesus was in Cana of Galilee performing His first miracle of changing water to wine.  (John 2:11 - “This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and MANIFESTED FORTH HIS GLORY; and His disciples believed on Him.”  Why did I emphasize this part about Jesus’ GLORY being manifested?  Because the Isaiah prophecy does this in Isaiah 40:3-6 where it talks about the “Voice in the wilderness” preparing the way of the Lord, speaking about John’s ministry that would start in AD 26. 

Then, Isaiah 40:5 says that “the GLORY OF THE LORD SHALL BE REVEALED, and all flesh shall see it together...”. The John 2:11 text about the miracle at Cana is when the fulfillment took place about Jesus’ “GLORY” being manifested, or revealed.  This was the time when Jesus actually “CAME unto His own...” and started revealing Himself as the miracle-working Son of God.

There are a couple more texts that determine when Jesus’ ministry started - namely, AFTER John was imprisoned in AD 30:
Matthew 4:12-17 - “ Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, He departed into Galilee; and leaving Nazareth” (where He preached in the synagogue - Luke 4:16-21), “He came and dwelt in Capernaum which is upon the sea coast , in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying The land of Zabulon and Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan” (where John had been baptizing in John 1:28), “Galilee of the Gentiles; The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region of death, LIGHT IS SPRUNG UP.”  (Jesus’ ministry began at this time in Galilee.)  “FROM THAT TIME” (when Jesus’ ministry began at this time in Galilee), “Jesus BEGAN TO PREACH, and to say Repent; for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (or present at that time)

The other parallel companion text to this is Mark 1:14-15, which I have brought up earlier.  “Now AFTER THAT JOHN WAS PUT IN PRISON Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, THE TIME IS FULFILLED” (ho kairos - a definite determined period indicated here - meaning, I believe, that the 69th week of Daniel just ended, and the last 70th week of confirming the covenant began here), “and the kingdom of God is at hand; (or present).  “Repent ye and believe the gospel.”

The Mark 1 text then goes immediately into describing Jesus at the Sea of Galilee calling Simon, James, and John to be His disciples, just as He did in the John 1 account.  This Mark 1 text compared to the John 1 text tells me that John was probably arrested in Galilee by Herod almost immediately after he identified Jesus as the Lamb of God in AD 30.  We know that John was content to take the back seat at this point, since he pushed two of his own disciples (Andrew and probably John the beloved disciple) into following Christ instead of himself in John 1:35-37.

Tiptop, it does take quite a bit of tracking back and forth through scripture to prove this point of a 3-year gap, but I still believe that this must be the correct chronological layout of events, since it reconciles all the scripture references to this period.  I wouldn’t devote so much time to pinning down this AD 33 date for the middle of the 70th week if I didn’t regard it as a critical milestone that we absolutely must have correctly identified .

[LaSpino3]

3 Resurrections: I believe you need to re-examine your whole timeline. We know Jesus was born in October of 4 B.C. We know he was 30 years old when he was baptized by the Holy Spirit as King and High Priest after the order of Melchizedek, as required by the law. That takes us to October of 26 A.D.

Luke 3:23, “Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age --.” 3 1/2 years later takes us to 4/5, 30 A.D., when Jesus crucifixion. Now concerning,
Luke 3:1, "In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judea---."

History tells us that Tiberius was CO-REGENT with Augustus Caesar starting earlier in A.D. 11/12. This occurred because Augustus wanted a successor to his throne. Augustus’ first choice of an heir to the throne died before Augustus did. So, he adopted his grandson Tiberius Caesar Augustus as a son in 4 A.D. so that he would be the heir to the throne. In A.D. 11/12, Tiberius was made co-regent and consequently became the ruler in August 19, 14 A.D. upon Augustus’ death.

This is supported by Suetonius, who was a Roman historian who wrote during the early imperial era of the Roman empire.

He wrote, “After a two-year stint in Germania (Germany), which lasted from 10−12 AD, Tiberius returned and celebrated the triumph which he had postponed, accompanied also by his generals, for whom he had obtained the triumphal regalia. And before turning to enter the Capitol, he dismounted from his chariot and fell at the knees of his father, who was presiding over the ceremonies.”
 
"Since the consuls caused a law to be passed soon after this that he should GOVERN the provinces JOINTLY with Augustus and hold the census with him, he set out for Illyricum on the conclusion of the lustral ceremonies."

According to Suetonius, these ceremonies and the declaration of his "CO-RULER” took place in the year 12 AD, after Tiberius' return from Germania. "But he was at once recalled, and finding Augustus in his last illness but still alive, he spent an entire day with him in private."

Augustus died in A.D. 14, a month before his 76th birthday. He was buried with all due ceremony and, as had been arranged beforehand. Tiberius, now a middle-aged man at 55, was confirmed as his SOLE surviving heir in 14 A.D., But he had some 2 or 3 years under his belt a co-ruler, 2 or 3 depending on the calendar one uses, Julian or Jewish. Also remember, if exactly 2 years and one day pass, it’s considered the 3ed year. So the 15th year of Tiberius began in 12 A.D. The Lord would have been about 16 years of age.

Laspino3

[dpr]

dpr  -  The seals, trumpets, and vials are three repetitions all covering the same time period, just from different perspectives.  It’s a recapitulation pattern, with each of these three sets of judgments ending on the same point of the first-century calendar. 

No, they are not about events that happened back in the 1st century A.D. That's when Apostle John was given to write down the visions of the events while he was captive on the Isle of Patmos, but that was not when those events were meant for. You are only regurgitating a doctrine of man, and it's a theory that strays away from the Bible Scriptures.

The six-hundred and sixty-six figure is the number of years the Sea Beast had existed as of the year John wrote Revelation, and that was 59 AD.  Count backward 666 years, and you arrive at the year the Sea Beast first was identified in this world: i.e. 607 BC when Nebuchadnezzar deported the first Jews to Babylon and the 70 years of exile began. 

That's a completely wild speculative dream. Doesn't hold a drop of water compared to actual Bible Scripture in Revelation. The 666 number is not some secret occult Gematria number. It's not about finding some guy's name that equals 666. Nor is it about the commercial bar code system. It is simply about the main event for the end, the timing when Satan is cast down to earth to play Messiah in Jerusalem, on the 6th Seal, 6th Trumpet, and 6th Vial (666).

But go ahead, stay in confusion and dream up all kinds of Ouija board puzzles, make a game out of it, as if that is what a show wisdom is about. The blind scribes and Pharisees of Jesus' day were always want to do that kind of thinking, because the Word of God was not in them. Tell them some simple yet profound and they would play with it until it became unrecognizable.

If you read my comment fully, you would see that I no longer acknowledge gematria as a viable means of interpreting this 666 figure. 

Assigning dates to it is doing the same thing.

Multiple antichrists were a phenomenon that the first century was wrestling with.  It was due to the Jews trying to pin the Messiah identity on a military-type deliverer - a Messiah that was supposed to show up in the year AD 30, according to Daniel’s 70-week prophecy.  The further down the line those first-century Jews got from that AD 30 date when the Messiah was supposed to appear, the more desperate they got.  Since they refused to accept Jesus as the fulfillment of the Daniel 9:25 prophecy, there were many pseudo-Christs  (among the Zealots especially) that tried to prove they were the Messiah fulfillment. 

Instead of listening to some Jewish historian tell you what Jesus was declaring in the Matt.24:23-26 Scripture, you ought to instead listen to Jesus Himself. The KJV "false Christs" phrase in Matt.24:24 is just the Greek word pseudochristos, made up of 2 Greek words, pseudo meaning false, and Christos meaning Christ singular. The context of that Scripture is singular, not plural, so Jesus was not talking about multiple messiahs the Jews were looking for. He was talking about a specific false-Messiah that would come, and do what?

What do the Jews think what kind of fake messiahs would come? Simply men who claim to be Messiah. But what Jesus showed in the Matt.24:23-26 section of Scripture is about a false-Messiah that will actually work great signs and wonders that would if possible, deceive even His very elect. That is a whole... lot different idea than the Jews noting many false men claiming to be Messiah. And since that is the very point of that Matt.24:23-26 Scripture, and you simply bypassed that specific point Jesus made there, it makes me suspicious of your aims here.

[3 Resurrections]

Ummm, dpr, you may want to check your Greek word for “anti-christs”.  It’s PLURAL “pseudochristOI”, not singular “pseudochristOS”.

I agree that ONE individual Anti-christ of note would rise to the top out of the heap of the many PLURAL anti-christs.  But the II Thess 2 description of the single “Man of Sin” was never said to succeed in ruling over the entire world.  He only succeeds in “exalting himself”, much like the current pile of presidential candidates who are into self-aggrandizement, but with no actual ruling power over the nations.

As for that one individual “Anti-christ” or “False Christ” - of course he would do signs and wonders to deceive the public - I never denied that.  But he would be destroyed almost as soon as he stepped onto the public stage exalting himself, because the very “brightness of his coming” into that role with those signs and wonders was going to be destroyed along with the man himself.  Not a career of very long duration at all.  A mere “flash in the pan”, as it were.

Your strange interpretation of the significance of “666” does not take into account that the believers were to mathematically “calculate” this number which had an actual numerical value of “six-hundred and sixty-six”.  It’s not just a triple repetition of the single digit six, as you are proposing.

To “calculate” by counting up a specific numbered amount of six-hundred and sixty-six years is perfectly in sync with John’s instructions to the believers of that day to “COUNT the number of the beast”.   (It’s very similar to the times when God gave a numbered amount of years for mankind’s life to last.  I.e., mankind would live 120 years, which was then reduced later to “three-score years and ten”, or at the most “four-score” on the average).   Calling this number of the beast six-hundred and sixty-six YEARS for its existence up to that date when John was writing is not in any way connected with the process called “gematria”, which substitutes numbers for letters of the alphabet.

[dpr]

In the 1 John 2:18 Scripture, the word "antichrist" is used in the singular tense, about the one the brethren had already heard shall come. Then John mentions "many antichrists" in the next phrase, which is plural, and which is about the Antichrist's workers or servants.

1 John 2:18
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
KJV


Thus men's doctrines that try and twist the word antichrist always into a plural sense work against the actual Bible Scripture.

In 2 Thessalonians 2, Apostle Paul was covering the same subject with the "mystery of iniquity" already being at work. That is about the "many antichrists" that John said are at work even in his day. It's about the same subject. But the main antichrist Paul clearly covered there is that specific "man of sin" he showed will play God in Jerusalem, working signs and wonders. And that is the same one that Jesus warned of in Matthew 24:23-26, which was in contrast to His warning of many Christs that would come and just say they are Christ, but without the working of great signs and wonders.

Rev 13:11-14
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
KJV

What idiot would try to say that above Scripture is about the idea of "many antichrists"? It is about a singular Antichrist figure coming to work those signs and miracles to deceive the world with.

[3 Resurrections]

Hey dpr,

The “many anti-christs” of I John 2:18 and the plural “false christs” (pseudochristoi) of Matt. 24:24 were the same group.  They were NOT ever called the servants of the single individual “Anti-christ” of I John 2:18, also known as the single “Man of Sin”.  They were all COMPETING RIVALS for the same “Messiah the Prince” role prophesied by Daniel 9:25.  That’s why II Thess. 2:4 said that the Man of Sin would “OPPOSE” the other anti-christs who were “CALLED God” - not that they really were God, but that they were also claiming to be the Messiah, just like the single Anti-christ was doing.

You are mixing up the role of the Rev. 13:11 Beast from the land (of Israel) with the single Anti-christ of II Thess. 2.  Can’t be done.  A Beast in scripture was always representative of an entire KINGDOM of some sort - not a single individual man such as the “Man of Sin” was.

The Rev. 13:11 Beast from the land (of Israel) was the corrupt high priesthood leadership of Israel, with its two-horned Sadducee and Pharisee power structure.  They were well known for speaking lies like Satan the Dragon, as Christ often accused them of being liars like their father the Devil.  They had been aligning themselves in collusion with the 666-year-old Roman Sea Beast, in order to preserve “their place and their nation”, as Caiaphas the high priest had once said.

The Land Beast making fire come down from heaven in Rev. 13:13 was indicative of the Land Beast’s high priestly role of maintaining the fire on the Temple altar, originally kindled by God igniting that fire at the dedication of Moses’ Tabernacle and of Solomon’s Temple dedication.  That Land Beast performed this role “IN THE SIGHT OF”, or in the very presence of the 666-year-old Sea Beast.  Which the high priests actually did do in the Temple just across from and in direct view of the Roman Fortress of Antonia, where Rome garrisoned its troops that controlled Jerusalem’s affairs.

You are also crediting far more power to the single Anti-Christ than he was ever predicted to have in scripture.  The Man of Sin in II Thess. 2 did NOT achieve world domination according to scripture.  Just as soon as he came exalting himself in the role of the Messiah in the actual physical Jerusalem temple of the first-century, he was destroyed, according to II Thess. 2:8.  His career of self-advancement was very, very brief. 

[dpr]

Hey dpr,

The “many anti-christs” of I John 2:18 and the plural “false christs” (pseudochristoi) of Matt. 24:24 were the same group.  They were NOT ever called the servants of the single individual “Anti-christ” of I John 2:18, also known as the single “Man of Sin”.  They were all COMPETING RIVALS for the same “Messiah the Prince” role prophesied by Daniel 9:25.  That’s why II Thess. 2:4 said that the Man of Sin would “OPPOSE” the other anti-christs who were “CALLED God” - not that they really were God, but that they were also claiming to be the Messiah, just like the single Anti-christ was doing.

I totally disagree. The 'many' of Matt.24:5 that come saying they are Christ are the many that have simply claimed to be Jesus since He died on the cross. Just in my era since the 50's there's been many claiming to be Jesus. The difference with those is they have no power to work the great signs and wonders our Lord Jesus said would almost deceive even His very elect. These represent the "many antichrists" of 1 John 2:18, even the "mystery of iniquity" of 2 Thess.2. They are not the singular "antichrist" which John also mentioned.

1 John 2:18
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
KJV

As one can easily see there, John was speaking of a singular "antichrist" also, one that the brethren had already heard shall come. Where did the brethren first hear about that one coming? From Jesus, per John 14:30 and John 12:31, which is about Satan as that "prince of the world." A close study of the Rev.12:7-14 Scripture reveals Satan and his angels being booted out of the heavenly, down to the earth, in OUR dimension, with a link to the delivered up saints of the 5th Seal of Rev.6. That is pointing directly to the time of "great tribulation" that's to happen at the very end of this world.

In 2 Thess.2, Apostle Paul was giving this same kind of warning our Lord Jesus did within the Matt.24:23-26 section. The "temple of God" which the "man of sin" is to sit in claiming to be God, is about a literal newly built temple in Jerusalem for the end, not Paul's spiritual temple idea (which can never be corrupted by any man, not even by the devil). Dr. James Strong defined the KJV phrase "false Christs" in Matt.24:24 as 'a spurious Messiah', showing he saw this coming event of a false-Messiah in Jerusalem working great signs and wonders to deceive the whole world for the end. Apostle John was shown about this false one also in Rev.13:11 forward.

You are mixing up the role of the Rev. 13:11 Beast from the land (of Israel) with the single Anti-christ of II Thess. 2.  Can’t be done.  A Beast in scripture was always representative of an entire KINGDOM of some sort - not a single individual man such as the “Man of Sin” was.

Well, no I am not mixing up the role of the "another beast" in Rev.13:11 forward. We are told there he will appear with two horns LIKE a lamb, which is symbolic of our Lord Jesus The Lamb, but he will speak as a "dragon", which is another title for Satan per Rev.12:9. We are told he will rain fire down from heaven to earth in the sight of men, and will work miracles to deceive the whole world. In Rev.13:4-8 we are shown the whole world will worship that 'dragon' (excepting Christ's elect whose names were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world). We are also shown in that Rev.13:4-8 section of Scripture that he will reign for 42 months over all nations and peoples, and will blaspheme God, which is a direct reference to the false one in Daniel 8.

The doctrine of men you follow has confused you about these things written in God's Word. There are 2 different beasts written of in Rev.13, not just one. The first beast is about a system, a kingdom that has ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns, and it comes up out of the sea. But the 2nd beast is the "another beast" of Rev.13:11 that comes up out of the earth, and is about the idea of a beast king. Rev.17 shows us more about the beast king role in contrast to the beast kingdom, but one must stay focused to grasp how that chapter often changes subject of the two different beasts very abruptly.

The Rev. 13:11 Beast from the land (of Israel) was the corrupt high priesthood leadership of Israel, with its two-horned Sadducee and Pharisee power structure.  They were well known for speaking lies like Satan the Dragon, as Christ often accused them of being liars like their father the Devil.  They had been aligning themselves in collusion with the 666-year-old Roman Sea Beast, in order to preserve “their place and their nation”, as Caiaphas the high priest had once said.

How did you miss that those did NOT work the great signs and wonders and miracles that the "another beast" of Rev.13 is to work? And did they setup an 'image of the beast' idol for all to bow down to and worship, and receive the image of his name or mark in their forehead? No, obviously those things written in Rev.13 about that "another beast" has never happened to this day. It's clear the ones you listen to have deceived you about the identity of that "another beast". And if you can receive it (which I don't think you can right now), it will be Satan himself as that "another beast".

The Land Beast making fire come down from heaven in Rev. 13:13 was indicative of the Land Beast’s high priestly role of maintaining the fire on the Temple altar, originally kindled by God igniting that fire at the dedication of Moses’ Tabernacle and of Solomon’s Temple dedication.  That Land Beast performed this role “IN THE SIGHT OF”, or in the very presence of the 666-year-old Sea Beast.  Which the high priests actually did do in the Temple just across from and in direct view of the Roman Fortress of Antonia, where Rome garrisoned its troops that controlled Jerusalem’s affairs.

The first beast of Rev.13:1-2 that comes up out of the sea is the beast of ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns. It is NOT the "another beast" of Rev.13:11 forward.

It is the 2nd beast of Rev.13:11 forward, a specific person, that rains fire down from heaven to the earth in sight of men, and works miracles to deceive the whole world, literally. You are denying God's Word about the working of the supernatural in order to serve men's doctrines, trying to replace the written Scripture with a supposed applied history.

The 2nd beast comes up out of the earth (which that point of coming up out of the earth is symbolic). It is this one...

Rev 17:8
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
KJV

Rev 17:11
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
KJV

Just who has already been judged and sentenced to perish in the future "lake of fire"? Only the devil and his angels have so far (Isaiah 30:33; Matthew 25:41). No flesh man has been judged and sentenced to perish yet, not even Judas who betrayed our Lord Jesus. By that, our Lord Jesus just revealed through John to us, the devil himself as that coming "another beast" for the end of this world. It is Satan that symbolically comes up out of the earth and is already judged to perish in the future lake of fire.

You are also crediting far more power to the single Anti-Christ than he was ever predicted to have in scripture.  The Man of Sin in II Thess. 2 did NOT achieve world domination according to scripture.  Just as soon as he came exalting himself in the role of the Messiah in the actual physical Jerusalem temple of the first-century, he was destroyed, according to II Thess. 2:8.  His career of self-advancement was very, very brief.

Let's see... in Matthew 24:23, our Lord Jesus showed that coming pseudo-Messiah will work great signs and wonders, that IF possible... would deceive even His very elect.

Thing is, His elect can never be deceived, because He has sealed them away from deception. He already owns His elect servants (John 17). So just what LEVEL of miraculous power would a spurious-Messiah have to work to even almost... deceive them? With that in consideration, the Scripture is pointing to the level of power to work miracles on earth like our Lord Jesus could do at His 1st coming. The Scripture isn't playing around when it is pointing to an actual pseudo-Christ coming to deceive the whole world using miracles. We are to supposed to believe what our Lord Jesus and His Apostles said about these things.

Paul said that false-Messiah will exalt himself as God, over all that is even CALLED God, or that is worshiped (2 Thess.2:4). Think about that for a moment. Over all that is 'called' God, who all would that cover? It would cover ALL religions upon the earth today, and anything one called their God. What about all that is worshiped? That would mean this pseudo-Messiah only... would be worshiped by the world, and nothing else worshiped (except Christ's elect won't do that, which is why the coming tribulation will be upon only those who stay faithful waiting on Christ's return).

This is very telling also...

Rev 13:4-8
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
KJV

The whole world will be deceived and worship that "dragon" (Satan), except Christ's faithful whose names were written in the book of life from the foundation of the earth.

Men's doctrines will continue to push replacements for the plain Scripture truth about that "dragon", i.e., Satan, coming to this earth in our near future to play God, and the whole world believing it. There's the power to work a greater level of miracles on this earth that this present generation definitely, has never seen before. In such a technological generation as today's, that working of great signs and miracles is going to really put the hook in the majority of this world.

Even with all the Internet and phone technology of today, the Revelation 11:9 verse could not be fulfilled with all nations seeing the dead bodies of God's two witnesses in future Jerusalem, until satellite and cell phone technology was developed.

Rev 11:8-10
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
KJV

[RB]

This subject has been discussed many times over and I think the last time was here: http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/the-mark-of-the-beast-the-name-of-the-beast-or-the-number-of-its-name-and-666/

[Choir Loft]

Choir Loft  -  I would love to give a response to your comment, but unfortunately, this forum keeps kicking into a "not responding mode" after a couple sentences.  I'm not sure the reason.  It has been a problem for about 3 weeks.

I have likewise noticed how these forums suddenly develop a glitch when a response is made to a critical statement.   Is this deliberate human enforced censorship or is it some sort of electronic knee-jerk or is it simple coincidence?

Having reread your initial post I'd want to reexamine my post above, but exhaustive remarks leave me exhausted and I'll have to wait until I take a nap to type some more.......

later.

hollering from the choir loft...

[RB]

I have likewise noticed how these forums suddenly develop a glitch when a response is made to a critical statement.   Is this deliberate human enforced censorship or is it some sort of electronic knee-jerk or is it simple coincidence?

Absolutely not~it could have been your mistake or electronic coincidence. The Moderators here are good people, even if there are differences, they show a lot of mercy and patience~would most likely warn someone privately and publicly before they ever would deal with anyone~ and then in a manner that would be godly.

[3 Resurrections]

Hi Choir Loft,

I agree with RB - this ongoing problem for me has nothing to do with this forum’s moderating practices.  I trust these guys after seeing examples of their patience with people and diligence to keep this forum running at peak efficiency.

This is undoubtedly due to my abysmal ignorance of all things computer related.  I’ve been meaning to get my techno-pro daughter over here to help me punch the right buttons or set up the right programs on this fairly new computer.  Just waiting for a non-busy time for her (which is rare).

Take your time, Choir Loft, if you need to digest this post slowly.  It’s a genuine honor for anyone to critically review what one writes.  And I am not above changing my perspective, or tweaking it if necessary to follow scripture more closely.

I have only read one gentleman’s book that offered this 666-years as a possible interpretation for the number of the Sea Beast (not the number of the second Land Beast as dpr is proposing), but by now, I think it is the simplest explanation that would have made the most logical sense for John’s readers to “count” and understand with a little wisdom thrown in.  And it most definitely pins down the composition date of Revelation to the exact year, which has been another hotly-debated topic for sure.


And to address dpr’s  lengthy response...

There is much of your comment that hits topics that could be subdivided into other threads.  Like the many anti-christs, who were going to claim to be Daniel’s prophesied  Messiah. (Hint: scripture does NOT say they were going to claim the name of JESUS.  That’s  because they didn’t believe Jesus was the Son of God come in the flesh.  They wanted to lay claim to the Messiah role themselves, in rejection of Jesus.)

You have mistakenly identified Satan the Dragon as being the second Land Beast of Rev. 13.  That’s impossible.  The Land Beast would speak AS a Dragon would do.  SIMILAR to Satan, but NOT as being Satan himself.  Just as the Pharisees and Sadducees spoke lies exactly like their father the Devil did.  “Ye are of your father the Devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do”, Christ told the Pharisees.  “...If I should say I do not know Him” (God he Father), “I should be A LIAR LIKE UNTO YOU.”

And YES, the Land Beast as the high priesthood of Israel’s leadership (with its two-horned power structure of Pharisees and Sadducees) definitely did recommend and enforce the image and mark of the 666-year-old Roman Sea Beast on its own people.  It did this via Israel’s exact copy of the pagan Tyrian shekel currency with its forbidden abominable images minted in Jerusalem ever since 19 BC, and which was required by the priesthood for any Temple sales, purchases, or Temple tax, and was worn in the forehead of women’s headdresses, such as the woman who lost one of her ten coins.

Scripture mentions three spirits “like frogs” would come out of the mouths of all THREE different entities of #1) the Beast, #2) the False Prophet / Land Beast, AND #3) the Dragon /Satan.  Which proves that Satan is NOT the Land Beast.  All THREE of these different entities end up in the Lake of Fire as separate identities.

You are also confusing the identity of the Rev. 13 Land Beast with the Rev. 17 Scarlet Beast.  They have different origins, different  features, different histories, and different lifespans.  There are actually a total of THREE beasts described in Revelation.  THREE BEASTS and a Dragon /Satan.  Sort of like an earthly parody of the Four Beasts in heaven that cry “Holy, holy, holy” without pause.

[Choir Loft]

I may be reiterating information posted earlier, but for the sake of clarity I wish to add something again.

When the Bible mentions a beast, as in Daniel 7 and Revelation 13, it's referring to a system, an organization or a nation.   This interpretation has been an accepted yardstick of study by scholars for quite a long time.  It's only recently, with the rise in popularity of tabloid novelizations and ignorant electronic preachers, that other interpretations have clouded the minds of readers and hearers. 

Remember TV evangelist Jimmy Baker?  He was quite popular in the 80's and served time in prison for real estate fraud.  He admits that the first time he read the Bible from cover to cover was when he was in a prison cell.  What sort of truthful guidance can anyone accept from a person like this?  Quite a bit if gullibility is considered.  This is the common level of ignorance passed onto a Biblically illiterate public by charismatic snake-oil salesmen of Baker's ilk.  Alas, such things are common these days and few there are who vet the data.   But I digress......

Revelation 17:15 interprets the passage in Revelation 13:1.  A beast arises out of the sea in Rev 13:1.   Rev 17:15 interprets the sea to mean "peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues".  Likewise the beast that arises out of the earth in Revelation 13 represents a nation or system that is minor or subservient to the sea beast.   Some scholars have interpreted the reference to the earth beast as the nations of the New World - specifically America.   An image of the sea beast is commissioned for duplication by the earth beast with subsequent threats placed upon the people of the world to worship the image.

We may assume, as many do, that the sea beast as well as its image is a false or LAWless religion - a religion that contradicts God's LAW regarding times and seasons and methods of worship.

Like Sunday.

According to the third commandment, Saturday is the day set apart by God for rest prayer and worship.   Yet the Roman Catholic church has subverted the commandment so as to CHANGE TIME of worship to Sunday instead.  According to the Holy See, there is no Biblical justification for Sunday worship.  They command it simply because they can. (References provided upon request.) 

The earth beast (American Protestants) give life and justification for the ruling of the sea beast/Vatican and have even passed Blue Laws to support it.  Blue laws are unconstitutional, yet they persist as being enforced.   Also called Sunday laws, blue laws restrict or ban certain activities (like shopping for certain items) on Sunday for religious reasons.   

Catholics ignore God's commandment out of tradition and habit and give no thought to violating it.  Protestants, who like to think themselves separate from papal jurisdiction, do the same for the same reasons. 

The Beast described in Daniel 7 and Revelation is a religious system - the Roman Catholic church.   More on this later as I'm sure this statement will arouse some controversy.

God owns Saturday.
The NFL owns Sunday.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft... 

[dpr]

And to address dpr’s  lengthy response...

There is much of your comment that hits topics that could be subdivided into other threads.  Like the many anti-christs, who were going to claim to be Daniel’s prophesied  Messiah. (Hint: scripture does NOT say they were going to claim the name of JESUS.  That’s  because they didn’t believe Jesus was the Son of God come in the flesh.  They wanted to lay claim to the Messiah role themselves, in rejection of Jesus.)

Correct me if I misunderstand you, but you are inferring that Scripture does not specifically call out warning that the coming Antichrist will exalt himself as God. Lord Jesus is... God, come in the flesh (Immanuel). The 2 Thess. 2:4 Scripture by Paul and the Matth.24:23-26 Scripture are both emphatic that the coming false one is coming to play God, The Messiah. It's not about claiming roles with that coming Antichrist who will work the "great signs and wonders". It's about trying to fool the world into believing he is God, literally. This is why our Lord Jesus forewarned those miracles would almost deceive even His very elect.

You have mistakenly identified Satan the Dragon as being the second Land Beast of Rev. 13.  That’s impossible.  The Land Beast would speak AS a Dragon would do.  SIMILAR to Satan, but NOT as being Satan himself.  Just as the Pharisees and Sadducees spoke lies exactly like their father the Devil did.  “Ye are of your father the Devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do”, Christ told the Pharisees.  “...If I should say I do not know Him” (God he Father), “I should be A LIAR LIKE UNTO YOU.”

I have NOT mistaken the 2nd beast of Rev.13:11 forward as the "dragon", Satan.

There is ONLY ONE "dragon" symbolic title written of in the NT that is defined as a title specifically for Satan, and it is in the Rev.12:9 and 20:2 Scripture. Rev.13:11-14 reveals the SAME one doing the miracles of Matt.24:24 and 2 Thess.2:9 that we were warned of. That "another beast" speaking like a dragon and ascending up from the earth are strong clues that it is about Satan himself.

Rev.12:9 & 20:2 define the "dragon" is... Satan.

Rev.9:11 reveals the angel over the bottomless pit that is a king, as 'the Destroyer' in Greek and in Hebrew, and that is a direct reference to Satan.

Rev.13:11 the "another beast" comes up out of the earth, which is a reference to ascending from the bottomless pit, is about Satan himself.

Rev.17:8 refers to a beast that ascends up from the bottomless pit and goes into perdition. Only Satan and his angels have already been judged and sentenced to perish in the future "lake of fire". No flesh has of yet. That is another way that is pointing directly to Satan as that one who ascends out of the bottomless pit and goes into perdition. It cannot... apply to ANY flesh-born man.

In Rev.20:1-3, the one who is cast into the bottomless pit and sealed up is the "dragon", i.e., Satan.

I think our Lord Jesus has been very good to us in revealing who the coming false-Messiah at the end will be, and what he will try to do on earth. Afterall, Satan coveting God's throne, literally, is how he fell in the time of old.

And YES, the Land Beast as the high priesthood of Israel’s leadership (with its two-horned power structure of Pharisees and Sadducees) definitely did recommend and enforce the image and mark of the 666-year-old Roman Sea Beast on its own people.  It did this via Israel’s exact copy of the pagan Tyrian shekel currency with its forbidden abominable images minted in Jerusalem ever since 19 BC, and which was required by the priesthood for any Temple sales, purchases, or Temple tax, and was worn in the forehead of women’s headdresses, such as the woman who lost one of her ten coins.

The 666 image of the beast prophecy that the "another beast" will do has nothing to do with old Israel nor Rome. The prophetic pattern for the final beast in Revelation is actually linked to historical Babylon, if a pattern of history is what you want to dwell upon. This is why Rev.14 and 18 repeat the "Babylon is fallen, is fallen" proclamation from Isaiah 21 about historical Babylon. In Rev.13:2 the lion symbol is given, which was a symbol for historical Babylon, pointing to the first beast in Dan.7, the lion symbol with the eagle's wings.

The "image of the beast" being setup and demand for all to bow in worship to it, is a direct link to what the historical king of Babylon did with making a gold idol of himself and demanding all to worship it at the sound of the psalter. Those who refused were to be killed. Daniel and his fellows refused. Thus the Babylon captivity of the time of Daniel is given as a blueprint for the final beast and beast king in Revelation for the end of this world. Understanding this being the real link in Revelation to history also means understanding our Lord Jesus' warning from the Book of Daniel about the "abomination of desolation" idol that will be setup in a new temple in Jerusalem in our near future. (and no, I am not a Futurist, nor on the pre-trib rapture theory boat)

Scripture mentions three spirits “like frogs” would come out of the mouths of all THREE different entities of #1) the Beast, #2) the False Prophet / Land Beast, AND #3) the Dragon /Satan.  Which proves that Satan is NOT the Land Beast.  All THREE of these different entities end up in the Lake of Fire as separate identities.

I agree Satan is NOT the 1st beast of Rev.13:1. But neither is the 2nd beast of Rev.13:11 a "Land Beast". TWO different beasts are described in Rev.13, not one.

When Jesus returns, that is when the 'beast' and the 'false prophet' goes into the lake of fire. The dragon doesn't then, simply because that dragon is Satan. That happens PRIOR to the day of God's Great White
Throne Judgment, which means what? Where is it written that any flesh-born man is already sentenced to perish in the future lake of fire? No flesh born man has yet, not even Judas. Why? Because that Day of Judgment has not come yet, and so far, ONLY Satan and his angels have already been sentenced to perish in that future lake of fire.

And please, no silly comments like I'm inferring there won't be many who will eventually be cast into the lake of fire because of unbelief, because we know God's Word is specific there will be, yet He did NOT tell us who else yet besides Satan and his angels (Isaiah 30:33; Matthew 25:41). It's because that time of Judgment is not until after Christ's future "thousand years" reign that begins at His return.

Thus, the beast and false prophet are only ROLES the Antichrist will play, because only the "another beast" are we told does the miracles per Rev.13:11 forward. Satan is not destroyed until after Christ's future thousand years reign of Rev.20, which is another proof that the "thousand years" is meant literally, and is not just symbolic.

You are also confusing the identity of the Rev. 13 Land Beast with the Rev. 17 Scarlet Beast.  They have different origins, different  features, different histories, and different lifespans.  There are actually a total of THREE beasts described in Revelation.  THREE BEASTS and a Dragon /Satan.  Sort of like an earthly parody of the Four Beasts in heaven that cry “Holy, holy, holy” without pause.

No, I am not. The symbolic "woman" of Rev.17 is a "great city". We are told that in the very last verse of Rev.17.

The "great whore" of Rev.17 also is that same symbolic "woman". She is called a "great whore" at the beginning, but when John is actually shown the vision of her, she is called a "woman". Thus the "waters" the "great whore" sits upon is the same idea as the "woman" who sits upon a scarlet colored beast that has seven heads and ten horns. Those "waters" are defined in the Rev.17:15 verse about peoples and nations, and that matches the idea of the seven heads which we are told are "seven mountains" (areas of the earth).

There are ONLY TWO BEASTS described in Revelation. If you say there's 3, then your doctrine is trying to create one, which is to ADD to the Scripture. And doing that is a NO, NO!

[3 Resurrections]

Hey again dpr,

The Anti-christ was not going to claim that He was JESUS.  He was going to claim He was Daniel 9:25’s prophesied MESSIAH, meaning the anointed one called CHRIST.  For us, these are one and the same, but not for the Jews of our Lord’s generation who rejected Him.  The Anti-christ was going to stake a claim on the title “King of the Jews” (a title of “King” which the Lord Jesus Christ claimed before Pilate).

The Anti-christ sought to be an earthly, militarily-victorious king over the earthly kingdom of the first-century Jewish nation.  There were many anti-christs vying for that coveted position battling it out against each other in the first century, each wanting to become that “King of the Jews” - a title that should have been reserved for Christ our Lord only.

And “great signs and wonders” that would be deceptively performed by the Anti-Christ were not necessarily going to be supernatural miracles.   Great military exploits and usurpation of power over their own people the Jews fits the description of “great signs and wonders”.

As for the beasts of Revelation 13, I’m not denying there are two mentioned there.  One comes out of the sea, and the other Beast from the land that collaborates and supports the Sea Beast comes up out of the EARTH (ge - the land of Israel) - NOT from out of the bottomless pit.

The bottomless pit is not a LOCATION per se, but a CONDITION of death or non-functioning existence, just as Christ while in the grave was in the bottomless pit (abussos) in Romans 10:7.

The THIRD BEAST from Revelation 17:8 (the Scarlet Beast found in the wilderness) was ”ABOUT TO ARISE” from out of that abyss of a non-functioning state, and was also ABOUT TO GO INTO DESTRUCTION in John’s days - NOT in our future.   Again, you are missing the imminent time frame of these manifestations, which would all take place in days that were “AT HAND” in the very near future for John’s readers (Rev. 1:3 and 22:10).  By missing all the soon-coming references to a near time fulfillment, it is throwing your entire interpretation of Revelation’s prophecies off-kilter.

Not that you are expected to go check it out, but for anyone else reading this, I have done some rather thorough review of scripture’s presentation of the THREE BEASTS of Revelation at the following link:

http://gracecentered.com/christian_forums/preterist-forum/the-sea-beast-the-land-beast-and-the-scarlet-beast/

I have an equal horror of adding or subtracting from the words of Revelation’s prophecies, which is why I have posted about the three Beasts and Satan the Dragon as all four being described in scripture as separate entities.