The 7 Year Tribulation Period is a False Doctrine!!

[larry2]

Dear Sister rezar, since you do not believe anything I say, there's no point in attempting to show you anything that would be conducive to serious debate.

Your views are Preterist which have no validity to me, and since I first discussed Revelation with you if I'm not mistaken, you mentioned leaning toward believing in Universalism also. There remains little left for us to debate.

I believe it was Brother K-pappy that expressed the fact that you seem to be in these end time discussions since you don't believe them to just disrupt serious discussion from proceeding. If he was not the one saying that, it is my opinion of your purpose here.

I will address two things you said and attempt to say no more on it.

Rezar - the saints are not in heaven until after the tribulation begins.

larry2 - You are wrong. There are 24 elders in Revelation 4:4, and four living ones in Revelation 4:6 redeemed to God out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation according to Revelation 5:9. Tribulation begins in Revelation Chapter six.

Rezar - To "come out of the great tribulation" means one had to have been in it for a least a short time.

larry2 - Some are. The great multitude of Revelation 7:14, and the Man Child of Revelation 12:5.

[larry2]

John describes the following saints as he sees them shown to him in heaven. Who do you say the 24 Elders, the four living ones, the great multitude, and the 144,000 are; are they not the Church?

Notice that John said that he saw a door opened in heaven, next he was invited by Jesus to go up there, and then he would be shown things that would come after that.

So are you saying the events that happened AFTER the 4th chapter are visions, are real or what?  Just trying to see your perspective.

Dear Brother Eccl 12:13, scripture is scripture, and of course the events are real; there is no hint of John just having a vision, and even if it were, it would come to pass since Jesus was giving it through His angel to John in Revelation 1:1.

John said in Revelation 1:10 that he was in spirit on the Lord's day; he was caught forward to that time when Jesus will take the reigns of command and be seated upon His own throne in Revelation 4:2. Presently Jesus sits at God's right hand.

John was given revelation of things past. things which are right now, and then in Revelation 1:19 and Revelation 4:1 things which will be hereafter.

[rezar]

by larry2,

Rezar - the saints are not in heaven until after the tribulation begins.

larry2 - You are wrong. There are 24 elders in Revelation 4:4, and four living ones in Revelation 4:6 redeemed to God out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation according to Revelation 5:9. Tribulation begins in Revelation Chapter six.

The scene John beholds about the 24 elders is a heavenly archetype of the earthly sanctuary & its furniture. Rev.4:4, 4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads. Present there is the mercy seat, overshadowed by the cheribum of glory in the form of the throne & four living creatures (Rev.4:2, 6:8), the candlestick or lamp stand in the form of the Holy Spirit (Rev.4:5), the brazen sea of glass (v.6) & the golden censor & altar of incense. (Rev.8:3) The trumpets (Rev.8:2) & vials (Rev.16:1) that figure prominently later in the Revelation also find their complements in the earthly temple. (2Chrn.29:28;1Kings 7:50)
Round about the throne, John sees 24 seats, or lesser thrones. Upon the seats he sees 24 elders, clothed in white, wearing crowns of gold upon their heads. These are the royal presbyters of God; they sit as part of the court & counsel of the Great King. The thrones upon which they sit are the thrones of the house of David, ruling together as princes & coheirs with Christ. "Jerusalem is builded as a city that is compacted together: whither the tribes go up, the tribes of the Lord, unto the testimony of Israel, to give thanks unto the name of the Lord. For there are set thrones of judgment, the thrones of the house of David." (Psa.122:3-5; cf.Rev.20:4)
The elders answer to the 24 courses of priests from the sons of Aaron that served in the sanctuary. (1Chrn.24:1-19)
Ah but this pix of heaven is spiritual reality......They symbalize the church universal before the throne of God & the Lamb. They consist of all nations united in Christ & seated with Him in heavenly places. (Eph.2:6) This is apparent from ch.5 where the 4 & 20 elders sing a new song, saying, "Thou hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; and hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on earth." (Rev.5:9-10)

Scripture does not distinguish between those who were spiritually "raised up" & those who have gone to the spiritual realm post-mortem.
The elders' purpose in the vision is to signify the reign of the saints as joint heirs with Christ (Rom.8:17) And this was during the "millennium" AD30-66.

The image fulfills Isaiah's prophecy concerning God's spiritual kingdom "when the Lord of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusale, before his ancients gloriously." (Isa.24:23)
Although already kings & priests, they are merely heirs apparent looking forthe adoption & manifestation of the sons of God (Rom.8:23) Their reign was still in expectation, awaiting the great consummation & the coming of Christ (in AD70) cf Rev. 19.

Rezar - To "come out of the great tribulation" means one had to have been in it for a least a short time.

larry2 - Some are. The great multitude of Revelation 7:14, and the Man Child of Revelation 12:5.

Well, this is minor but you should make up your mind whether or not they are all raptured (as your disp. pov assumes) or some go through the tribulation the Romans slaughtered the Jews about- even if you like to see a repeat 2,000 yrs. later.- you should make up your mind whether or not you think you & others that believe the same as you, something will or will not happen to.  See my point with that?

[larry2]

Well, this is minor but you should make up your mind whether or not they are all raptured (as your disp. pov assumes) or some go through the tribulation the Romans slaughtered the Jews about- even if you like to see a repeat 2,000 yrs. later.- you should make up your mind whether or not you think you & others that believe the same as you, something will or will not happen to.  See my point with that?

As I have said before, I do not believe any Preterist doctrine on end times, and I do not assume anything. It is written that John sees different ones that have been caught up to God's throne at different times. They have different proximity's to Jesus, and different offices.

[Corbley]

There is going to be a tribulation period
3.5 years and "a period of great tribulation"
anouther 3.5 years

[rezar]

Well, this is minor but you should make up your mind whether or not they are all raptured (as your disp. pov assumes) or some go through the tribulation the Romans slaughtered the Jews about- even if you like to see a repeat 2,000 yrs. later.- you should make up your mind whether or not you think you & others that believe the same as you, something will or will not happen to.  See my point with that?

As I have said before, I do not believe any Preterist doctrine on end times, and I do not assume anything. It is written that John sees different ones that have been caught up to God's throne at different times. They have different proximity's to Jesus, and different offices.

That's all good with me larry2, i don't force the Preterist pov on anyone. There are other believers that God gives the gift of prophesies to. They overcome the supposed reasoning of the orthodoxies bc it is clear the Latins could not interpret Jewish theology & the book of Revelations.

And btw, my explanation of the 24 elders is the more comprehensive, accurate, & better view. It helps to incorporate the OT temple architecture into the interpretations in Revelation. Same is true for "Babylon" (Jerusalem) in Rev.18.

[Stucky]

Wow...I wanted to get into this debate but it has gone on so long and covered so many points that I'm afraid I'm going to be repeating points others have made.  I'm just going to address a few things and hope they haven't already been said.

Eccl. 12:13 said "it is the action of the Abomination of Desolation (the son of perdition, the man of sin)".

The Anti-Christ is the son of perdition and the man of sin.  The abomination of desolation is something he does when he stands in the temple and declares himself to be God.

Eccl. 12:13 said "Can you can prove, beyond a shadow of doubt, that the tribulation period will last for 7 years? Your life depends upon it!"


How?  This is not a salvation issue.

Eccl. 12:13 said "Again, WHO is the ‘he’ mentioned above? It can ONLY be the one spoken of throughout this entire vision…..Jesus Christ! How can it be anyone else?
It CAN’T!!!!"

If you are correct then Jesus must be the one who "sets up the abomination that causes desolation" in the following verse.
( 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' [j] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. [k]  [l])"

I'm sorry Eccl.12:13 but I'm going to stop there.  I'm just a simple country boy and you talk longer than a hungry heifer i an empty field.  I figure if you can answer those questions it might be worth while listening to you further.

[rezar]

Stucky, it would be nice if you would outline your quotes so that others can read the discourse properly. The whole wide inhabitable world knows the Christ's ministry was 3 1/2 yrs. on earth & that the Great Tribulation on the Jews in the whole wide inhabited world of their day was an acute 3 1/2 yrs.  from AD67 (Feb.) through AD70 (Aug-Sept) 

And please use spell check. The spelling of yours is sometimes very poor.

So. I disagree with the Dispensational pov also & the OP is right about the 3 1/2 yr. tribulation on the Jews in history.

So, for this thread, i will agree with the OP about the tribulation being a half a week only- that's all we see in the Scripture, therefore that all the time frame God says is for the great tribulation.

Also, you need to read the Septuagint's English rendering of Daniel 9:27. It is clear Who makes the Covenant- (ps- it is not called a peace treaty!)

[Jaime]

Rezar, please capitalize the pronoun I, as opposed to i....................... .....since we are being picky!

[Eccl12:13]

Eccl. 12:13 said "Can you can prove, beyond a shadow of doubt, that the tribulation period will last for 7 years? Your life depends upon it!"


How?  This is not a salvation issue.

If you believe in a (7) year tribulation and think that you will have 3.5yrs AFTER the man of sin is revealed you are WRONG!

Doing that will cause you to be right smack in the Tribulation period.  Jesus never said to wait, or that you have 3.5yrs before the REAL trouble starts.  He said FLEE when you see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place.

This is so serious just look at how He tells us to go:

[17] Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
[18] Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

If you are not in God's place of safety you will only have TWO choices:

Take the mark, or;

Die for the word of God;

So tell me....what will you do when you see the following events happening;

1.  The temple in Jerusalem built.
2.  Sacrfices Started.
3.  Desert areas bringing forth vegetation and water near the mountains of Jerusalem.
4.  The Man from Rome placed in the temple by protected by Armies.
5.  The Man stopping the daily sacrifice.

If you wait until you see the 5th event, it very well may be too late.

Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.


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[farouk]

The believer today can look forward to the Lord's coming to rapture His church, as seen in 1 Thess. 4.

[rezar]

That's more than just misplaced hope to this believer.

I think the next generation & the next should live on earth & have the same, or better opportunities than my generation.

I think you should stay & fight for the next generation. What do you say about that Farouk?

[Eccl12:13]

The believer today can look forward to the Lord's coming to rapture His church, as seen in 1 Thess. 4.

Still going to have to wait for SIX trumps to blow BEFORE you go!  And before that will be the Tribulation Period.

Readers understand something.....I know what I post is against what most have been taught or believe, but this is NOT something you can afford to get wrong.

You only have ONE time and ONE time only to get it right.

Pray for wisdom and understanding.

Look, research, study know the signs Jesus, Daniel, Paul and John gave us.

If you are caught, NOT in the place of safety, you will have some VERY hard choices to make!

Your life WILL depend upon it.


Pss.95
[8] Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

Heb.3
[8] Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
[15] While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

Heb.4
[7] Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.


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[Stucky]

Stucky, it would be nice if you would outline your quotes so that others can read the discourse properly. The whole wide inhabitable world knows the Christ's ministry was 3 1/2 yrs. on earth & that the Great Tribulation on the Jews in the whole wide inhabited world of their day was an acute 3 1/2 yrs.  from AD67 (Feb.) through AD70 (Aug-Sept) 

And please use spell check. The spelling of yours is sometimes very poor.

So. I disagree with the Dispensational pov also & the OP is right about the 3 1/2 yr. tribulation on the Jews in history.

So, for this thread, i will agree with the OP about the tribulation being a half a week only- that's all we see in the Scripture, therefore that all the time frame God says is for the great tribulation.

Also, you need to read the Septuagint's English rendering of Daniel 9:27. It is clear Who makes the Covenant- (ps- it is not called a peace treaty!)

  I'm sorry I'm not up to your intellectual standards rezar. 

If the "whole wide world knows, then why are so many posters disagreeing with you?

I'm confused about your "outline your quotes" comment dude, whatever do you mean?

You "agree with the OP"?  YOU were the OP so you agree with yourself, how unusual.

"Spell check"?  I don't need no stinkin' spell check. I won all the spelling bees in grade school.  I am a lousy typist, however, and make many typos.

Finally, I've read Daniel 9:27 (in English - go figure) many times and I disagree with you.  I know that makes me a dummy but, shucks, I like being a dummy as my goal is to be the least in Heaven.  I'll be the guy sweeping your golden street in front of your mansion.   

[rezar]

 Stucky, I will not waste a lot of time on Dan.9:27. The dispy view has been proven wrong by much more than just Preterists. Doesn't matter who says it's wrong. It's totally wrong & was a farce from a Catholic girl dreaming 150- yrs. ago.

Next, I would like to know what you think people are disagreeing with me about. The fact that they don't know that Christ's ministry was 3 1/2 yrs., bc i doubt that one- or the fact that the great tribulation on the Jewish people was time, times, & a half time? The latter is possible for you as i don't think you are familiar with Josephus' writings- as an eye-witness of the great tribulation in history, are you?

So much for spelling. What about that history?