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Offline rezar

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #35 on: Mon Sep 21, 2009 - 12:25:08 »
I still believe that the coming of the Lord Jesus for His people (1 Thess. 4) amounts to the Rapture that you guys keep saying you don't believe in.

Jesus receives everyone when they die. Even the lost. Jesus died for Adam's sin as well. The tree of life is back & what was lost from Adam is gained in Christ. The lost do not recognize this & cannot have the blessings the righteous have now. Their life could be fuller in Christ now, but i believe the tree of life is spiritual this side of heaven. Something they cannot know without the Spirit.
However, "all the sins of men will be forgiven them" & all will be purified when they meet Christ upon death.

So basically, i find your Jesus return to be folly, bc He has no more enemies to put down. Just a loving a merciful Father ready to judge good from evil, in this life now.


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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #35 on: Mon Sep 21, 2009 - 12:25:08 »

Offline elijah_101

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #36 on: Mon Sep 21, 2009 - 15:03:55 »

There is no such thing as a rapture of the living. "Then" those who are alive & remain living on the earth after the great tribulation- they are "caught up" or Christ receives them when they die & not before.

Everyone will die. The point is is how gruesome or not your death will be.

If we hold onto Christ till the end, death may very well have no sting, as Paul says. Or lesser sting. He was closer to perfect than most of us. I'm counting on at least less sting than any unbeliever.



Not every one will die

Jesus said

Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Matt 16:28


What did Jesus say?

Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. John 8:51 (KJV)
The 1st verse you quote speaks of physical death.(ie. the apostle John was to live till Jesus came again. (Jn 21:22) The 2nd  verse speaks of spiritual death. We will never see spiritual death! Which is great.

Consider
2Cor.4:7-5:5,
Cast Down but Unconquered
   

Jesus never mentions any gathering up of the living. He "saved" the living. A kind of temporal salvation. They fled the city (the Christians) & they were saved from God's wrath on Jerusalem & that area. For those, He appeared a second time, not for sin but for salvation. (Heb.9:28). Christ put down the enemies & brought relief to the church.



In 2 Cor 4:7 Paul was talking about himself, because he Drunk of the same cup Jesus drunk out of, the cup of mortars

Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. 23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.  Matt 20:22-23


Quote
2 Corinthians 5:5

I walk by faith, and not by sight...2 Cor 5:7

If you Walk by faith, you will Keep the Commandments Words and Sayings of God John 14:15-23

Therefore walking in the Spirit

Because if you walk in the Spirit you cannot do the things that you would

God is a Spirit:

and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth John 4:24

This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:16

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.John 1:1

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing:

the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. - John 6:63

if we Walk in the Spirit we Walk in Life and we are present with the Lord, And we are Holy because we do all those thing that are well pleaseing in the sight of God, Showing our love in DEED AND IN TRUTH

what did Jesus say?

At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. John 14:20-21

If a man love me, he will keep my words:

and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with himJohn 14:23

Ro 8:13 Which is the Word of God, Which Means you will keep and Do all Gods Commandments Words and Sayings, this is why When you walk in the Spirit you Cannot Sin.

Quote
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Heb 9:28 (KJV)

Yeal because when Jesus comes back again, if you have sin you will remain a sinner, and you will be rewarded according to your sins, and you know were you will be going

as the Scripture says

He that is unjust, let him be unjust still:

and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still:

and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still:

and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:11-12

this is why every one must repent now, and pick up their cross and follow Jesus

and you will suffer all the way, untill you ceace from sin 1 Pe 4:1

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #36 on: Mon Sep 21, 2009 - 15:03:55 »

Offline elijah_101

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #37 on: Mon Sep 21, 2009 - 15:07:49 »
 rezar

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.  Matt 22:32

Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
John 8:51
« Last Edit: Mon Sep 21, 2009 - 15:15:09 by elijah_101 »

Offline elijah_101

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #38 on: Mon Sep 21, 2009 - 15:14:45 »
I still believe that the coming of the Lord Jesus for His people (1 Thess. 4) amounts to the Rapture that you guys keep saying you don't believe in.

Jesus is coming for his People, AFTER the tribulations

LOOK

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

 And THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matt 24:29-31

This is when Jesus gathers his elect after the tribulations to have a meeting in the air to do judgment Jude 1:14

 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thess 4:17

Alive and remaining from what?

Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Rev 7:14

Even the Church is going to go through the tribulations, God has a place prepaird for her in the wilderness, were the church will suffer persecution from the DEVIL

And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Rev 12:6

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
 
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. 13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.Rev 12:9-13

All those who keep the commandments of God will be  persecuted

Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 2 Tim 3:12

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 12:17

Now if the church was in heaven how could she be  persecuted ?

And why would God prepair a place for the Church in the wilderness ?

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #38 on: Mon Sep 21, 2009 - 15:14:45 »

Offline rezar

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #39 on: Mon Sep 21, 2009 - 15:47:55 »
rezar

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.  Matt 22:32

Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
John 8:51
All that meant was to show the Jewish leaders that Abraham's spirit was alive in Hades. Yes, God passes over those Pharisees who were dead in spirit. They would be dying as a matter of fact when Jerusalem & the Old world of Judaism would be destroyed.

The church is NOT in the wilderness today. That is a nonsensical statement. It's history.
Stop trying to fit the future into something you dream up. History says it's done. God said it was done. And it was done "shortly" after John wrote the Apocalypse.  Can you read God's timing statements? Or do you just read man's traditional statements?

The tribulation was after the "thousand year" reign of the martyrs (no, they didn't reign without their heads either. It's the 40 yrs, they preached the gospel) Approx. AD26-66.
Then Satan's short time AD67-70 for the devastating trib- then the  resurrection of the dead, after the thousand years was over.

Jesus has come. This is it, bro.  There's no more materialistic changes gonna happen. His kingdom & the New Jerusalem church is spiritual.
The flesh will profit you nothing if you look for a more carnal world than God did.
Carnal people aren't satisfied with a spiritual kingdom. Just like the Jews of Jesus' day.


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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #39 on: Mon Sep 21, 2009 - 15:47:55 »



Offline farouk

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #40 on: Mon Sep 21, 2009 - 15:59:23 »
e:

It seems to refer to Tribulation saints, rather than the church.

The principle of tribulation is still relevant. "In the world ye shall have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."

I still believe that the coming of the Lord Jesus for His people (1 Thess. 4) amounts to the Rapture that you guys keep saying you don't believe in.

Jesus is coming for his People, AFTER the tribulations

LOOK

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

 And THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matt 24:29-31

This is when Jesus gathers his elect after the tribulations to have a meeting in the air to do judgment Jude 1:14

 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thess 4:17

Alive and remaining from what?

Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Rev 7:14

Even the Church is going to go through the tribulations, God has a place prepaird for her in the wilderness, were the church will suffer persecution from the DEVIL

And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Rev 12:6

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
 
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. 13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.Rev 12:9-13

All those who keep the commandments of God will be  persecuted

Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 2 Tim 3:12

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 12:17

Now if the church was in heaven how could she be  persecuted ?

And why would God prepair a place for the Church in the wilderness ?


Offline elijah_101

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #41 on: Mon Sep 21, 2009 - 19:11:56 »
Quote
Quote from: rezar on Today at 04:47 PM The church is NOT in the wilderness today. That is a nonsensical statement. It's history.
Stop trying to fit the future into something you dream up. History says it's done. God said it was done. And it was done "shortly" after John wrote the Apocalypse.  Can you read God's timing statements? Or do you just read man's traditional statements?

You say it was done,  Jesus says its coming

If it was done after John wrote the Apocalypse, then why is there sinners on the earth? were is the New heavens and the New earth God is going to create if its already happened?

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Matt 24:21

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved
Matt 24:22

The world is over populated, and almost all the world has been living good , Jesus said there is going to be such a great tribulation that has never been since the earth was created, and there has been bad times through history, but nothing can even compair to what is coming, Jesus said himself if the days was not shortened no flesh would be saved, but for the elects sakes it will be shorten

I did not say they was in the wilderness today and there not, and I'm not making this up, I'm giving you 100% proof with scripture proving what I say

were is your scriptures? history what history is that?

BUT when you see Jerusalem compassed with armies, THEN desolation comes Luke 21:20

Jesus said

For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. Luke 21:22-

THEN Jesus tells the Church to Flee into the mountains Matthew 24:16 and not to look back

then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:  And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:  And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. Mark 13:14-16

Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. Luke 21:21


Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away:

and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

 Remember Lot's wife. 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. Luke 17:30-33

the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city. Gen 19:15

Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed. 18 And Lot said unto them, Oh, not so, my Lord:
Gen 19:17-18

But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt. Gen 19:26

 if they go back they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Luke 21:24


God tells them to FLEE

flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah:

and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
Zech 14:1-5

And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. Rev 12:6

Quote
The tribulation was after the "thousand year" reign of the martyrs (no, they didn't reign without their heads either. It's the 40 yrs, they preached the gospel) Approx. AD26-66.

Were is the Scripture ?

Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Zech 14:1-2

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Luke 21:20

This is the Very beginning of the Tribulations, as Jesus said in Matt 24:16-21

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18  let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

during the Tribulations God is going to Destroy all the sinners out of the Earth

Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.Isaiah 13:9

This is what the tribulations is for

and it will last for 3 1/2 years Dan 12:11 Rev 11:2  Rev 12:6 Rev 12:14

Then after the Tribulations Jesus comes he sends his angles to gather his elect Matthew 24:29-30 and they have a meeting in the Air which is Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air1 Thess 4:17

to do judgment

Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
 
To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Jude 1:14-15

and the saints will reign with Christ for a thousand years. Rev 20:6

RIGHT here on earth Revelation 5:10 which has not happen yet

and then AFTER the 1,000 year reign satan will be losed out of his prison Rev 20:7 for GOG MAGOG, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. Rev 20:8-9

and after that

SATAN that deceived them will be cast into the the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Rev 20:10

THEN

The final JUDGMENT

 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 20:11-15

What happens next?

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Rev 21:1-2

« Last Edit: Mon Sep 21, 2009 - 19:36:39 by elijah_101 »

Offline rezar

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #42 on: Mon Sep 21, 2009 - 20:17:56 »
Wow, i thought we said that no one reads really long posts, lol.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #43 on: Mon Sep 21, 2009 - 20:37:29 »
To summarize the preterist position:

Nothing talked about regarding eschatology is physical or corporeal, except those things which we can definitely tie to historical events.  Those are real.  Everything we can't explain is figurative/spiritual.

Offline elijah_101

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #44 on: Mon Sep 21, 2009 - 22:46:41 »
Wow, i thought we said that no one reads really long posts, lol.


This is something every one needs to know and I encourage every one to study and seek this out, its very important to know,

 that that day does not come upon us unaware being the children of light, and the children of the day:

 we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
 
Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1 Thess 5:5-8

take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Luke 21:34-35

 The great day of the Lord is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the Lord: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.

 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.

 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the Lord: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the Lord'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.
Zeph 1:14-18

Offline rezar

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #45 on: Tue Sep 22, 2009 - 13:01:47 »
Well, don't forget to call on Him in your time of dire need. For He promises us a way of escape.

Remain in the Lord. Perhaps you too may survive something like 9-11, when an evil day comes- & the towers fall.

Until God changes His mind about evil in this world, i will follow His golden rules. And His example about Sodom & Gomorrah:
Gen.18:26-33,
26 So the LORD said, “If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #46 on: Tue Sep 22, 2009 - 22:34:11 »
Quote
To summarize the preterist position:

Nothing talked about regarding eschatology is physical or corporeal, except those things which we can definitely tie to historical events.  Those are real.  Everything we can't explain is figurative/spiritual.

BINGO!  Good summarization.

Offline farouk

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #47 on: Wed Sep 23, 2009 - 14:08:37 »
I'm not a Preterist.

It's preferable to look for the Lord's Coming for His people as taught in 1 Thess. 4, I believe.

Offline elijah_101

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #48 on: Wed Sep 23, 2009 - 14:09:27 »
Quote
rezar
 I'm not expecting anything in particular bc God never mentions anything about another Armageddon, once it was fulfilled, during the end of the Jewish age.

Armageddon is yet to come

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
 
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 20:6-15

None of this has happend yet

Offline rezar

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #49 on: Wed Sep 23, 2009 - 14:16:39 »

Offline elijah_101

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #50 on: Wed Sep 23, 2009 - 14:23:51 »


Check this out when you have time:
 
http://www.preterist.org/articles/hibbard_responds_to_misunderstandings.asp


thats your problem, you take mans words for it, and will not take the word of God, Do a study and see for yourself, don't let man make merchandise of you with feigned words whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment
2 Peter 2:3-4

Offline rezar

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #51 on: Wed Sep 23, 2009 - 17:34:26 »


Check this out when you have time:
 
http://www.preterist.org/articles/hibbard_responds_to_misunderstandings.asp


thats your problem, you take mans words for it, and will not take the word of God, Do a study and see for yourself, don't let man make merchandise of you with feigned words whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment
2 Peter 2:3-4


Do a study myself? Now that's funny, watson.  I studied Eschatology for 3 yrs.  I spent only 2 weeks looking for truth & reality of Scripture & history from the futuristic views.  The futuristic pov is ignorant of history & tries to do a study of what they think is Scripture, by literalizing spiritual truths. Hello, when will you understand the language of the prophets, & God's time statements, right under your nose?

Why are futurists so bent on destruction?  Have you no talent to contribute to God's kingdom constructively?

"When you talk about destruction.....don't you know that you can count me out" ~ The Beatles






Offline farouk

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #52 on: Wed Sep 23, 2009 - 18:07:16 »
Just watching the exchanges...

(I think I've said where I stand...)

Offline rezar

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #53 on: Wed Sep 23, 2009 - 18:21:52 »


Check this out when you have time:
 
http://www.preterist.org/articles/hibbard_responds_to_misunderstandings.asp


thats your problem, you take mans words for it, and will not take the word of God, Do a study and see for yourself, don't let man make merchandise of you with feigned words whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment
2 Peter 2:3-4


                               

larry2

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #54 on: Wed Sep 23, 2009 - 19:11:14 »

Quote from: larry2

Then who are those of Revelation 3:10 kept from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth?

Quote from: Amo

They are members of the Christian church during the sixth age of the church from the days of Christ, to the end of the world.  Preceding of course Laodicea, the seventh and final age of the Christian church before the end of the world, who will pass through the great tribulation.  There is no mention of a rapture to take away the members of Philadelphia.  Their church age simply ends before the tribulation.


If all pass through the tribulation, who are those of Revelation 4:4 & 4:6 in the midst of and round bout the throne with Jesus in Revelation 4:2 prior to the tribulation beginning?

In Jesus' name - larry2


k-pappy

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #55 on: Thu Sep 24, 2009 - 05:58:04 »


Check this out when you have time:
 
http://www.preterist.org/articles/hibbard_responds_to_misunderstandings.asp


thats your problem, you take mans words for it, and will not take the word of God, Do a study and see for yourself, don't let man make merchandise of you with feigned words whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment
2 Peter 2:3-4


Do a study myself? Now that's funny, watson.  I studied Eschatology for 3 yrs.  I spent only 2 weeks looking for truth & reality of Scripture & history from the futuristic views.  The futuristic pov is ignorant of history & tries to do a study of what they think is Scripture, by literalizing spiritual truths. Hello, when will you understand the language of the prophets, & God's time statements, right under your nose?

Why are futurists so bent on destruction?  Have you no talent to contribute to God's kingdom constructively?

"When you talk about destruction.....don't you know that you can count me out" ~ The Beatles


I've been studying eschatology and history for 13 years.  I think you are being a little harsh with people who disagree with your POV.  One thing I have learned in my studies is that I do not know everything, and that those who claim to really don't know anything.   Keep in mind, this is a Christian forum, we would do well to treat each others as Christians.

In Christ,
KP

Offline elijah_101

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #56 on: Thu Sep 24, 2009 - 21:09:55 »


Check this out when you have time:
 
http://www.preterist.org/articles/hibbard_responds_to_misunderstandings.asp


thats your problem, you take mans words for it, and will not take the word of God, Do a study and see for yourself, don't let man make merchandise of you with feigned words whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment
2 Peter 2:3-4


Do a study myself? Now that's funny, watson.  I studied Eschatology for 3 yrs.  I spent only 2 weeks looking for truth & reality of Scripture & history from the futuristic views.  The futuristic pov is ignorant of history & tries to do a study of what they think is Scripture, by literalizing spiritual truths. Hello, when will you understand the language of the prophets, & God's time statements, right under your nose?

Why are futurists so bent on destruction?  Have you no talent to contribute to God's kingdom constructively?

"When you talk about destruction.....don't you know that you can count me out" ~ The Beatles


I've been studying eschatology and history for 13 years.  I think you are being a little harsh with people who disagree with your POV.  One thing I have learned in my studies is that I do not know everything, and that those who claim to really don't know anything.   Keep in mind, this is a Christian forum, we would do well to treat each others as Christians.

In Christ,
KP


I was'ent trying to be harsh with rezar I  owe him a apology, I will be more carful in the near futhure I know this is your site, I will respect your rules. i don't not know every thing,, Every thing I know God has taulght me through him and sometimes by others, I am still finding things in the bible,  what I learn of God I shout it on the house tops

  Its hard when someone say Armageddon has already happened,

 If there is scripture I have a  open mind

Now to Armageddon

Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. 16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.Rev 16:15-16

Jesus is geting ready to come back to the earth, and he warns us to Keep his word,  Armageddon starts with Israel

And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. 18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.Rev 16:17-18

And the great city was divided into three parts Rev 16:19

Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Zech 14:1-2

This has not happened, Rome trodden Israel once, just one nation

we are talking about ALL nations not just one, The UN is made up of all nations, So Isreal is going to do something to Bring the UN agaist them

Israel is Going to be trodden Down

Jesus said it himself

they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles,

 until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Luke 21:24

When Israel is Trodden Down then Great Babylon comes into remembrance before God Rev 16:19 Armageddon as we know it

I'm not going to say who babylon is I will let every one decide for themselves

Who Rules the world? Rev 17:18

Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? Rev 13:4

The waters which thou sawest, where the wh*re sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
Rev 17:15

How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

Who made all the world Rich  through the abundance of her delicacies  .Rev 18:3

What city is like unto this great city!

This is still to come
« Last Edit: Thu Sep 24, 2009 - 23:47:49 by elijah_101 »

Offline elijah_101

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #57 on: Thu Sep 24, 2009 - 21:18:08 »
rezar i am sorry and I still would like to debate the word of God with you, according the the Revelations Israel shall be trodden down by all nations not just rome. I don't take other peoples books for the word of God there is to many differnent books out there, I like the Holy Bible.

Offline rezar

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #58 on: Wed Oct 14, 2009 - 08:34:23 »
rezar i am sorry and I still would like to debate the word of God with you, according the the Revelations Israel shall be trodden down by all nations not just rome. I don't take other peoples books for the word of God there is to many differnent books out there, I like the Holy Bible.

The Roman Empire began with Pompey & then Julius Caesar, about 100 yrs before Jerusalem was sacked by them. Just about every "nation" in the inhabited world at that time belonged to Caesar. Google an ancient map of the world at the time of Christ.
There is nothing future in the Bible about earthly Jerusalem, after the abomination of desolation the Romans brought to it almost 2,000 yrs. ago, except that it would be raised up - superseded by God's spiritual "holy" Zion. As a dwelling for God in men in the Spirit. The New Jerusalem came to earth spiritually after the 1st temple- made with hands was removed.
You can try to make the Bible look like a Political book for 2,000+ in its future, but it's nonsense.

Those who know (and are political figures) know the Bible is a Religious book & not political.

The government was to be of the Son, a new covenant, a spiritual "kingdom of God."  In that sense, Jesus rules supreme in the heavens over any government or nation.

We are responsible for upholding & teaching New Covenant law to the world. Loving God 1st, & loving neighbor as self & bringing them no harm.  ::smile::




Amo

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #59 on: Wed Oct 14, 2009 - 08:47:27 »
Quote
We are responsible for upholding & teaching New Covenant law to the world. Loving God 1st, & loving neighbor as self & bringing them no harm.  


Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: 5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. 6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

Deut 11:1 Therefore thou shalt love the LORD thy God, and keep his charge, and his statutes, and his judgments, and his commandments, alway.

Deut 11:13 And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,

Deut 11:22 For if ye shall diligently keep all these commandments which I command you, to do them, to love the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, and to cleave unto him;

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me:and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Who do you think spoke to Moses from the burning bush?  Who do you think descended upon the mountain and spoke the ten commandments?  Who do you think led the children of Israel through the wilderness?  It was our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.  When He was here in our flesh and told us to love God with all your heart and soul, and your neighbor as yourself, he was simply repeating that which He had already told Israel.  That which they, and we all, are so apt to forget.

Deut 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

1 Cor 7:18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Deut 30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

I Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

I Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Lev 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him. 18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Lev 19:34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

Deut 10:19 Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.






Offline rezar

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #60 on: Wed Oct 14, 2009 - 09:38:13 »
Yes, i know, & we all know those Scriptures. The "world' should definitely read & heed them.
But what's that got to do with this thread?

It's this. Teacher is in the house, Amo, fear not!

God spoke the words to Israel at Sinai.  He spoke of the law of Blessings & Cursings to them. You Amo, forgot the law of Cursings, which was executed when Israel of the flesh only chose the "ministration of death" - the Old covenant of the Law- over the New covenant in Christ.

Deut.28:15 (read & compare with the curses in Revelation on the Jews.) The plagues all would look different in the natural in the Roman/Jewish war as compared with Sinai's plagues. Just like the end would be like "a flood" for Israel. We know it was not a flood literally, but representative like fire consuming them. Ready?!

Deuteronomy 28:15-68 (New King James Version)

Curses on Disobedience
   
15 “But it shall come to pass, if you do not obey the voice of the LORD your God, to observe carefully all His commandments and His statutes which I command you today, that all these curses will come upon you and overtake you:
16 “Cursed shall you be in the city, and cursed shall you be in the country.
17 “Cursed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl.
18 “Cursed shall be the fruit of your body and the produce of your land, the increase of your cattle and the offspring of your flocks.
19 “Cursed shall you be when you come in, and cursed shall you be when you go out.
20 “The LORD will send on you cursing, confusion, and rebuke in all that you set your hand to do, until you are destroyed and until you perish quickly, because of the wickedness of your doings in which you have forsaken Me. 21 The LORD will make the plague cling to you until He has consumed you from the land which you are going to possess. 22 The LORD will strike you with consumption, with fever, with inflammation, with severe burning fever, with the sword, with scorching, and with mildew; they shall pursue you until you perish. 23 And your heavens which are over your head shall be bronze, and the earth which is under you shall be iron. 24 The LORD will change the rain of your land to powder and dust; from the heaven it shall come down on you until you are destroyed.
25 “The LORD will cause you to be defeated before your enemies; you shall go out one way against them and flee seven ways before them; and you shall become troublesome to all the kingdoms of the earth. 26 Your carcasses shall be food for all the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth, and no one shall frighten them away. 27 The LORD will strike you with the boils of Egypt, with tumors, with the scab, and with the itch, from which you cannot be healed. 28 The LORD will strike you with madness and blindness and confusion of heart. 29 And you shall grope at noonday, as a blind man gropes in darkness; you shall not prosper in your ways; you shall be only oppressed and plundered continually, and no one shall save you.
30 “You shall betroth a wife, but another man shall lie with her; you shall build a house, but you shall not dwell in it; you shall plant a vineyard, but shall not gather its grapes. 31 Your ox shall be slaughtered before your eyes, but you shall not eat of it; your donkey shall be violently taken away from before you, and shall not be restored to you; your sheep shall be given to your enemies, and you shall have no one to rescue them. 32 Your sons and your daughters shall be given to another people, and your eyes shall look and fail with longing for them all day long; and there shall be no strength in your hand. 33 A nation whom you have not known shall eat the fruit of your land and the produce of your labor, and you shall be only oppressed and crushed continually. 34 So you shall be driven mad because of the sight which your eyes see. 35 The LORD will strike you in the knees and on the legs with severe boils which cannot be healed, and from the sole of your foot to the top of your head.
36 “The LORD will bring you and the king whom you set over you to a nation which neither you nor your fathers have known, and there you shall serve other gods—wood and stone. 37 And you shall become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword among all nations where the LORD will drive you.
38 “You shall carry much seed out to the field but gather little in, for the locust shall consume it. 39 You shall plant vineyards and tend them, but you shall neither drink of the wine nor gather the grapes; for the worms shall eat them. 40 You shall have olive trees throughout all your territory, but you shall not anoint yourself with the oil; for your olives shall drop off. 41 You shall beget sons and daughters, but they shall not be yours; for they shall go into captivity. 42 Locusts shall consume all your trees and the produce of your land.
43 “The alien who is among you shall rise higher and higher above you, and you shall come down lower and lower. 44 He shall lend to you, but you shall not lend to him; he shall be the head, and you shall be the tail.
45 “Moreover all these curses shall come upon you and pursue and overtake you, until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which He commanded you. 46 And they shall be upon you for a sign and a wonder, and on your descendants forever.
47 “Because you did not serve the LORD your God with joy and gladness of heart, for the abundance of everything, 48 therefore you shall serve your enemies, whom the LORD will send against you, in hunger, in thirst, in nakedness, and in need of everything; and He will put a yoke of iron on your neck until He has destroyed you. 49 The LORD will bring a nation against you from afar, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flies, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a nation of fierce countenance, which does not respect the elderly nor show favor to the young. 51 And they shall eat the increase of your livestock and the produce of your land, until you are destroyed; they shall not leave you grain or new wine or oil, or the increase of your cattle or the offspring of your flocks, until they have destroyed you.
52 “They shall besiege you at all your gates until your high and fortified walls, in which you trust, come down throughout all your land; and they shall besiege you at all your gates throughout all your land which the LORD your God has given you. 53 You shall eat the fruit of your own body, the flesh of your sons and your daughters whom the LORD your God has given you, in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you. 54 The sensitive and very refined man among you will be hostile toward his brother, toward the wife of his bosom, and toward the rest of his children whom he leaves behind, 55 so that he will not give any of them the flesh of his children whom he will eat, because he has nothing left in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you at all your gates. 56 The tender and delicate woman among you, who would not venture to set the sole of her foot on the ground because of her delicateness and sensitivity, will refuse[a] to the husband of her bosom, and to her son and her daughter, 57 her placenta which comes out from between her feet and her children whom she bears; for she will eat them secretly for lack of everything in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you at all your gates.
58 “If you do not carefully observe all the words of this law that are written in this book, that you may fear this glorious and awesome name, THE LORD YOUR GOD, 59 then the LORD will bring upon you and your descendants extraordinary plagues—great and prolonged plagues—and serious and prolonged sicknesses. 60 Moreover He will bring back on you all the diseases of Egypt, of which you were afraid, and they shall cling to you. 61 Also every sickness and every plague, which is not written in this Book of the Law, will the LORD bring upon you until you are destroyed. 62 You shall be left few in number, whereas you were as the stars of heaven in multitude, because you would not obey the voice of the LORD your God. 63 And it shall be, that just as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good and multiply you, so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you and bring you to nothing; and you shall be plucked from off the land which you go to possess.
64 “Then the LORD will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other, and there you shall serve other gods, which neither you nor your fathers have known—wood and stone. 65 And among those nations you shall find no rest, nor shall the sole of your foot have a resting place; but there the LORD will give you a trembling heart, failing eyes, and anguish of soul. 66 Your life shall hang in doubt before you; you shall fear day and night, and have no assurance of life. 67 In the morning you shall say, ‘Oh, that it were evening!’ And at evening you shall say, ‘Oh, that it were morning!’ because of the fear which terrifies your heart, and because of the sight which your eyes see.
68 “And the LORD will take you back to Egypt in ships, by the way of which I said to you, ‘You shall never see it again.’ And there you shall be offered for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but no one will buy you.

Amo

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #61 on: Wed Oct 14, 2009 - 10:24:39 »
My only point rezar, was concerning that which you termed new covenant law.  How is it new covenant law, if it was taught by Christ also during the old covenant dispensation?  The law is not affected by old or new covenants, it remains the same.  It is our standing in relation to the law that has changed, not the law.  Yet, even those of the old covenant could change their standing in relation to the law, by looking forward by faith to that which we look back to by faith, Jesus Christ, and Him crucified, and Him resurrected.  PRAISE GOD!

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Concerning the curses for Israel's disobedience, there are similar warnings for professed Christians in the new testament also. 


Offline rezar

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #62 on: Wed Oct 14, 2009 - 11:48:55 »
My only point rezar, was concerning that which you termed new covenant law.  How is it new covenant law, if it was taught by Christ also during the old covenant dispensation?  The law is not affected by old or new covenants, it remains the same.  It is our standing in relation to the law that has changed, not the law.  Yet, even those of the old covenant could change their standing in relation to the law, by looking forward by faith to that which we look back to by faith, Jesus Christ, and Him crucified, and Him resurrected.  PRAISE GOD!

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Concerning the curses for Israel's disobedience, there are similar warnings for professed Christians in the new testament also.  


The answer is that it WAS NOT TAUGHT BY CHRIST DURING THE OLD COVENANT DISPENSATION. Although He was the spiritual Rock they drank from- He was hidden from their eyes until N.T. times.

Christians were not at Sinai. Deuteronomy DID NOT APPLY TO GENTILES. God made a New Covenant with the house of Israel. They broke the Old one many times bc of lack of Faith & worshiping other Gods = Harlotry.

Jesus set us free from the bondage of the law of sin & death. He wrote His law on Old Testament Israel's hearts when Messiah came.

Quote
Concerning the curses for Israel's disobedience, there are similar warnings for professed Christians in the new testament also.

[Exodus 20:7]- no way! ::frown:: There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Rom.8:1)

And in the "new Jerusalem" that came for the remnant Hebrew Christians & Gentile Christians after earthly Jerusalem, who was in bondage with her children was cast out- God said there would be no more curse. (Rev.21) An absolutely safe place in Christ.

Review Galatians, Romans, & Hebrews.  Messiah was prophesied about to Israel, but not revealed. Jesus had to fulfill the Old Covenant. The Old Covenant was waxing old & ready to pass away. The Old Covenant & New overlapped in the N.T. times. The Old covenant officially passed away when the earthly temple made with hands was destroyed in AD70.



« Last Edit: Sat Oct 17, 2009 - 03:33:21 by k-pappy »

Amo

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #63 on: Fri Oct 16, 2009 - 10:45:32 »
Quote
The answer is that it WAS NOT TAUGHT BY CHRIST DURING THE OLD COVENANT DISPENSATION. Although He was the spiritual Rock they drank from- He was hidden from their eyes until N.T. times.

Christians were not at Sinai. Deuteronomy DID NOT APPLY TO GENTILES. God made a New Covenant with the house of Israel. They broke the Old one many times bc of lack of Faith & worshiping other Gods = Harlotry.

Jesus set us free from the bondage of the law of sin & death. He wrote His law on Old Testament Israel's hearts when Messiah came.

What do you think the entire sanctuary and it's services pointed to?  What do you think every single sacrifice for sin in the same pointed to?  The gospel was preached to Israel, just as it is to us.  They were to look forward to the sacrifice of Christ in faith, we are to look back at His sacrifice in the same.  The law never saved, and it never will.  Breaking the law and worshipping other God's today, will have the same effect upon God's people now, as it had upon them then.  It still equals spiritual harlotry for those who claim to be God's people today, even if they claim to be Christ's.

The sacrifice of Christ is what makes it possible for the law to be written upon ones heart.  Faith in that sacrifice was as possible in the old covenant, as it is in the new.  Only now, it is an established fact, not some event of the future to look forward to.

Concerning the curses for Israel's disobedience, there are similar warnings for professed Christians in the new testament also.

Quote
Oh God- no way!  There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Rom.8:1)

And in the "new Jerusalem" that came for the remnant Hebrew Christians & Gentile Christians after earthly Jerusalem, who was in bondage with her children was cast out- God said there would be no more curse. (Rev.21) An absolutely safe place in Christ.

Review Galatians, Romans, & Hebrews.  Messiah was prophesied about to Israel, but not revealed. Jesus had to fulfill the Old Covenant. The Old Covenant was waxing old & ready to pass away. The Old Covenant & New overlapped in the N.T. times. The Old covenant officially passed away when the earthly temple made with hands was destroyed in AD70.


Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


The problem with so many of the Jews throughout history, was that they claimed to be God’s people on earth, and would not give up that claim, yet they would not obey God either.  This, even though God had plainly told them the results of the same.  It is the same way with Christians, as the above verses clearly point out.  Just because someone claims to be a follower of Christ, doesn’t mean they really are.  There will be many who claim to be, that Christ will have no part of.  It is those who do the will of the Father, who are true Christians, those who do not, though they may claim to be Christians, will have no part in the kingdom of God.  It was the same for the Jews.

1 Cor 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.


Who is Paul talking to in the above verses?  He is talking to gentiles that accepted Christ.  He is telling them not to deceive themselves.  Though they may claim to be Christians, if they continue in the above sins, they will not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Cor 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.


What happened to the Jews whom God was not pleased with, is an example to us, converted gentiles, of what will happen to us if we do the same.  Again, these things are addressed to the people of God in the new covenant era, which have accepted Christ. 

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.


The above is more of the same.  Both the old and new covenants are conditional.  Not on God’s part, who already has, and is doing everything possible to save us, short of forcing it upon us, but on our part, concerning how we will respond to the same.

2 Pet 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.


Again, the above warning is to us Christians, not non believers.  Those who claim to believe the scriptures, but twist and mutilate their content to their own end, do so unto their own destruction.  Those also who are deceived by them, are in danger of falling also. 

The main difference between God’s warning to the Jews of the old covenant, and His warnings for us Christians of the new covenant, is the result of our actions.  They were confronted with many literal judgments, while for the most part, we are confronted with the loss of our place in the kingdom of God.  Nevertheless, the end result of both is the same.  Without repentance, the effects of both are eternal.







Offline Eccl12:13

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #64 on: Sun Oct 18, 2009 - 11:03:42 »
Great post!  Sad many will not bother to study, research and pray for wisdom and understanding so that they will be able to save themselves.

Offline rezar

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #65 on: Sun Oct 18, 2009 - 11:32:57 »
Great post!  Sad many will not bother to study, research and pray for wisdom and understanding so that they will be able to save themselves.

While i believe we are enjoying the new covenant blessings & the abundant life & the "rest in this life" Christ spoke of-  I believe we are to show & teach new covenant law to the world - every chance we get. Not fire & brimstone teaching. I am a Christian Universalist & believe the terms "eternal" & everlasting" & "for ever" does not mean no end to it. Only God is eternal.
The term was believed by the Jews to have an end, when it speaks of men.
That's why it's important to me to preach the good news of the kingdom & this "new creation life" spoken of in the Bible, to unbelievers. Note how "all that have done good" are/were raised as John said. So, i think, maybe it's more the lost, those who need Christ the most at that point in their lives & after, that we are responsible to show the gospel of peace to. Concentrating on the good news of the gospel of the kingdom. 


Offline han55

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #66 on: Wed Oct 28, 2009 - 03:02:57 »
hey user's see this site

i think the rapture would b  in the year 2017 i guess

[link removed per forum rules]
« Last Edit: Fri Oct 30, 2009 - 18:11:03 by k-pappy »

son of God

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #67 on: Thu Oct 29, 2009 - 19:52:44 »
The church isn't currently raptured -- it's currently ruptured.

Offline endtimeswatcher

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #68 on: Sun Nov 01, 2009 - 17:22:38 »
I totally agree with your assessment. There are authorities who have great articles written on this subject. I follow Sherry Shriner, Tom Horn and Steve Quayle's prophecies on this subject. Follows is an article on the Rapture;
Will Satan Create His Own Fake Rapture?
By Sherry Shriner
      Is there really a fake rapture coming or is it just disinformation to get people to think a fake rapture is coming so when the real one does everyone rejects it?
      There has been information coming from government black project programs that the Illuminati is planning to have it's own rapture via UFO's to mimmick their own rapture right before their god..i.e. the Antichrist comes to earth. In fact before I got into the codes to see what they had to reveal I was working on the premise that there was indeed a fake rapture coming and was going to write an article on this fake rapture as revealed in the Blue Beam Project info I had put on my website. But the tables turned. The more I kept thinking there was going to be a fake rapture, the more the Lord kept revealing to me that the rapture was indeed a real rapture, it would just be denounced as fake by everyone else. Whoa. I had some re-thinking to do.
      One of the first things to always keep in mind is that the government will let information slip and be released to the public but they always add lies into it. This way people think it's all true because some of the information supplied really is. And in this instance, if they condition enough people to believe in the possibility of a fake rapture coming, then most people will just assume that when it happens, it's a fake. A clever deception by Satan himself covering his bases ahead of time.
      The only thing next on the agenda other than wars and cataclysmic events is the Rapture of the 144,000. And yes, most of the churches will reject it as a true rapture because most of them aren't taken and are still here. They won't see themselves for what they are, apostate and left behind.
      Who makes up the Bride of 144,000? They are "They which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the first fruits (first ones taken) unto God and to the Lamb." (14:4) This army is a mixture of men and women. They are virgins in the fact they were undefiled by the world's religious Jezebel system and spiritual adulteries. Feminine terms are often used in relation to spiritual terms. "They were not defiled with women" being religious whores and abominations.
      The Bible also says,  "And in their mouth was found no guile (Strongs 1388: craft, deceit): for they are without fault before the throne of God" (14:5) I'm sure the 'craft' being mentioned in Strong's is referring to witchcraft itself. How many ministries today are delving into witchcraft with their visions and angelic visitations? Most prophetic ministries and those who claim to have prophetic gifts are being deceived by the angel of light himself. These will not make the first group of 144,000 no matter how gifted yet confused they are. The craft will keep them out. Even those following after these leaders and adopting their practices and false teachings are guilty by association.  A remnant will wake up to repent and realize they were deceived to qualify for and make the second group of 144,000 sealed here on earth as indicated in Revelation chapter 7. The rest will die as marytrs or be divinely protected by Yahweh Himself such as the Jews who will run to Petra for protection.
      It's going to shock a lot of believers to have to wake up and realize they were sitting in errors, and so badly, they were rejected as part of the bride. When the Lord comes back for His bride they are found without guile. They are not apostate, and they are not drowning in the errors of witchcrafts and delusions that so much of our church is today. Neither have they rejected the commandments and especially the first commandment to not have other gods before Him. Most of the believers today DO have other gods before Yahweh. They worship Jesus, when He told us to worship the Father directly. It was made possible through His sacrifice, that He is our mediator between God and man. But how many people just worship Jesus directly replacing God with Him?
     Yahweh said, "My sheep hear My voice and they know Me and I know them." If you don't know His voice, then you are not His sheep. It's that simple. And you learn how to hear His voice by seeking Him and building a personal relationship with Him alone and spending time on learning how to.
     Many people also replace God with their Bibles, their churches and their pastors. They think they're doing everything right as a believer when they've instead put those things as idols and gods before Yahweh.
      I've been shouting about it for a long time, to not place anything between you and God Himself. To go to Him direct to learn from Him, and to learn how to hear His voice. On that day when He comes for His bride, the time will be over, and if you are left behind, then you will have another chance to be part of His elect second group of 144,000 or the chosen, but most will have to prove their love for Him in martyrdom. Most don't understand that there's three groups of believers. The bride, the elect, and the chosen. Which group will you be in? Which one will you forfeit because you won't heed the warnings now to get out of the delusions and false teachings of the churches? The Bride is the first fruits group of 144,000 of Revelation 14.  Many will forfeit this group because they are found in guile and will have to repent of their sins if they want to make one of the other two.
     Many will just forfeit heaven altogether. They won't be able to withstand the temptations of joining Lucifer's kingdom or they'll be afraid to die at the guillotines and choose the mark/chip instead. I see it in the codes all the time, people forfeiting their salvation and place in heaven.
     This coming rapture, deemed a fake by most in the world, will be the fuse to ignite the second half of the tribulation period.
     The world will be in a panic with many wondering if it was a fake NWO rapture or a massive UFO abduction, naturally they will denounce it for what it really was, the rapture of the 144,000 of Yahweh's bride.
     The Bible Codes indicate that the "snake" in office, will issue an explanation for the vanishing and disappearance of people around the world. The apostate church left behind will not believe it's a real rapture. They believe whatever explanation and lie he gives for their vanishing.
     I believe this will split Christianity in two. Those who believe it was a rapture and those who don't.
    This will drive a wedge between the church to serve Yahweh's purposes even moreso to weed out those who are of Him and those who aren't at all. So either those left have a hard wake up call to face or they're blind to the end. It's up to them because the beast prophets of Satan's will be working overtime to convince and persuade the churches that the rapture was not a real one and that the Antichrist is the Messiah. They are working in cohoots with him to deceive the masses. They are working with him just as much today as they will be later, and that's why so many will be left behind, they can't see it.
     Years ago when I was battling this whole issue of pre, mid or post tribulation raptures I began to just pray and seek the Lord about it. At the time I was a big believer in a pre tribulation rapture, growing up Baptist it was the standard quo. But I knew there were problems with it, because to believe in it and accept it you're ignoring other Scriptures that negate such a thing. When  you have to ignore Scripture to prove a doctrine in Scripture, then something is wrong. It should all fit together, not contradict.
     The Lord showed me that the church of Philadelphia would be spared from the "hour of temptation that would overcome the world." What is the hour of temptation? It is the last half of the tribulation period when the mark of the beast is enforced. It is also a time of Great Wrath and His Judgment on the world, especially those who receive the mark/chip of the beast. If the church of Philadelphia is just one of the 7 churches mentioned, taken symbollically that would also show that just a fraction of the church itself is taken. We have all 7 churches symbollically operating today. Notice that only one of them, a fraction, is spared from the hour of temptation that is to overcome the world. The rest of the churches will go through it to be tested, tried, and refined. In other words, they screwed up. They weren't found as being in the church of Philadelphia or the first fruits Bride and the mark of the beast will be used to test them to see where their real faith and loyalty in Him is. Those who suffer martyrdom will be given robes of righteousness.
     I see in the Bible codes all the time that many, many, Christians will be deceived by the things that are coming. You might say that's not possible, for didn't Jesus say Himself in Matthew 24:24, that the deception at the End of the Age would be so very, very good that it would involve "... great signs and wonders ; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." In other words, the elect wouldn't be deceived?
     Define elect.

     One of the biggest wake ups I've had in the years I've been decoding Bible Codes is that there will be many believers whose faith fails them and they forfeit heaven. Why?  Because their faith is built on sand instead of the rock of Yahweh and they fall for the charades and delusion to come that Satan coming to earth is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ and his claims that he and the aliens are our forefathers and creators.
      And even if a percentage of these people do finally realize it's not the real Yahushuah Jesus Christ, many will not be able to resist the mark of the beast. They will be afraid to die, or they will be deceived by their church leaders that the chip/mark is not the one prophesied of in the Bible. They will believe what man tells them, what their pastors tell them, what the media tells them, and they will receive the mark or chip. Why? Because they loved not the truth and it wasn't found in them.
     How can you be a lover of truth and not seek Yahweh Himelf for it? How can you leave the building of your faith up to a pastor or a church to do? We were warned by the Most High that by deception Lucifer caused 1/3 of the angels to fall with him in his rebellion against the Lord. And again by deception, he will cause millions of believers to unwittingly accept him as God. He did it before and he's going to do it again. All by deception. This deception will take the form of "great signs and wonders."  The Old World Order under the rule of Lucifer that was destroyed by Yahweh,  is here once again as The New World Order.
     The truth is, most people are so cozy in misunderstood and blatantly false interpretations and translations of doctrines and from false teachers that they seriously believe they have nothing to worry about with the events of the last days. They think they know it all and that the prophesied last days events are everyone elses problem because they themselves are going to be in heaven safe from it all. After all, that's been the best selling lie of all time, "get saved and you'll miss the tribulation period."
                          Can you hear the Watchmen shouting?

                              Wake up and smell the sulfur.

     

Offline Bigdog

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #69 on: Mon Nov 02, 2009 - 11:23:37 »
 For those who do not believe in the Rapture I pray for because the Great Tribulation, will be many times worse that what Hitler did to the Jews in WW-ll.
Except the Christians will take the Jews Place.
I have two guestions to ask.
1. Besides Jesus Paying the price for our sins, if we accept Him as Lord and Savior, what else does that do for us?
2. What does the scriptures Thessalonians 4:16-18 refer to?

 

     
anything