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Offline rezar

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #70 on: Wed Nov 04, 2009 - 10:25:09 »
For those who do not believe in the Rapture I pray for because the Great Tribulation, will be many times worse that what Hitler did to the Jews in WW-ll.
Except the Christians will take the Jews Place.
I have two guestions to ask.
1. Besides Jesus Paying the price for our sins, if we accept Him as Lord and Savior, what else does that do for us?
2. What does the scriptures Thessalonians 4:16-18 refer to?

No Christians were killed in Jerusalem in particular, during the 3 1/2 yr. siege of the Jews by the Romans.

The Hebrew Christians quit the city as Christ warned them some 30+ yrs. prior (in His Olivet discourse).

He appeared a second time for salvation (to save those from physical death- temporal salvation) This "Parousia" is His second coming. Parousia is defined as "presence."

Just as Peter notes in 1Pet.3,. Peter, who was writing on the verge of the great tribulation, stated there was a baptism that saved them (his appropriate audience) Those Christians that were "buried in baptism with Christ" - that that state they had- was an anti-type of the same in Noah's day. Noah & fam were "saved." Noah was a "type" - & in the N.T.- we read Peter saying his contemporaries (Christians) are the anti-type. These would be saved from destruction. Just as Noah & family were saved from death.
Christ was divinely decreeing the destruction of His enemies- not the growing church of Christ! The enemies were the Judaizers.

He would appear a second time "FOR"  them or on behalf of the persecuted Christians.

There is no antitype after the antitype in the N.T. reported by Peter.  Those Christians were indeed left behind - & SAVED.   
Let me clarify that those who were "taken" were the unbelieving Torah-worshiping Jews.

They were taken in the sense that their lives on earth would be taken- & the birds would pick their "flesh."  That is both literal & prophetic. (Ezek.39)

So, the Christians that fled the city 2,000 yrs. ago- were saved from God's wrath during the war.

Although there were many deaths of Christians by Domitius Nero - by his order & after his presumed suicide, Vespasian & his son Titus, is when this "4th beast" destroyed the harlot (the 1st century Jews) bc she rebelled against them (Rome).

Christians will never take the Jews' place.  Their history of rejecting their own Messiah (Christ) cannot be changed or substituted or replaced- OR OVERLOOKED IN SCRIPTURE!

We're in the safest place today- under the wings of the Almighty!

Psalms 23:1-6,
 1 The LORD is my shepherd;
         I shall not want.
 2 He makes me to lie down in green pastures;
         He leads me beside the still waters.
 3 He restores my soul;
         He leads me in the paths of righteousness
         For His name’s sake.
         
 4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
         I will fear no evil;
         For You are with me;
         Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me.
         
 5 You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies;
         You anoint my head with oil;
         My cup runs over.
 6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me
         All the days of my life;
         And I will dwell[a] in the house of the LORD
         Forever.

Footnotes:

   1. Psalm 23:6 Following Septuagint, Syriac, Targum, and Vulgate; Masoretic Text reads return.


Good day & God Bless!

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #70 on: Wed Nov 04, 2009 - 10:25:09 »

k-pappy

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #71 on: Wed Nov 04, 2009 - 10:42:29 »
rezar, you are not entirely correct.  You have not given the full definition of "Parousia" and thus your entire post is misleading at best.

It can mean "presense" but is only used as such twice in the entire bible.  It can also mean "the coming, arrival, advent" and  "the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God."

You need to look at it in contect.  When Jesus spoke, he was talking of His "coming" not His "presense."

In Christ,
KP

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #71 on: Wed Nov 04, 2009 - 10:42:29 »

Offline rezar

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #72 on: Wed Nov 04, 2009 - 11:51:11 »
Yes, i know that many traditionalists will fight tooth & nail to try to find something incomplete in Preterist's statements. Yet theirs leaves all of Christ's promises to be desired- & not fulfilled. As if He told the Apostles something that He still hasn't fulfilled for them yet! Why do Preterists see the Truth in Christ & futurists are still unfulfilled & wanting a prophecy to be fulfilled 2,000yrs. later? I know i wouldn't believe if that promise wasn't fulfilled to His disciples, as He spoke "this generation."  If Jesus didn't fulfill that to His close disciples, whom He told in restoration & regeneration (of man's spirit) that the apostles would judge (N.T. law) over Israel. This happened in the Acts of the Apostles- that time- not ours.

K-pappy, here is the definition of "Parousia" for you to contemplate:

What is the word Parousia that I keep running across?

Answer: The word Parousia is a transliterated Greek word (pronounced par-oo-see'-ah) which literally means "presence." The King James Strong's dictionary defines it this way:

    from the present participle of pareimi - pareimi 3918; a being near, i.e. advent (often, return; specially, of Christ to punish Jerusalem, or finally the wicked); (by implication) physically, aspect:--coming, presence.

For example, a more accurate translation of Matthew 24:3 would be:

    Tell us, when will these things be? What is the sign of your presence (parousia), and of the end of the age?

Because of early translations rendering parousia as the end of the world, it is not unreasonable to deduce that many believers have come to the wrong conclusion in expecting a physical and bodily return of Jesus rather than a return of his spiritual presence (parousia).





Offline Lame Ranger

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #73 on: Wed Nov 04, 2009 - 12:25:07 »
Hi k-pappy

Once again I agree exactly with what rezar has said and would add the following:

Quote
It can mean "presense" but is only used as such twice in the entire bible.  It can also mean "the coming, arrival, advent" and  "the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God."

The bible already records a return to earth by the risen Jesus. When He did return to talk to Paul on the road to Damascus, He was invisible. There are no verses to use that I know of to indicate that Jesus will ever become visible to mortals ever again. Yes, I kow the bible says 'every eye' will see Him but that is in the spiritual realm as you sit at the judgmetnn seat..
2 COR 5
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

The writer of Hebrews reveals we are dead when that happens:
Hebrews 9
27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

So I don't see any suitable verse to indicate that Jesus returns to earth visibly or physically.

LR



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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #73 on: Wed Nov 04, 2009 - 12:25:07 »

k-pappy

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #74 on: Wed Nov 04, 2009 - 13:45:36 »
rezar are you an evolutionist?  You act like one...even when the facts fly in the face of what you hold so dear, you act like I am ignorant and stupid for not sharing your belief.

As for Parousia, the definition you give is incomplete.  I know greek, I have been studying it for years.  You cannot change the definition of a word simply to fit your theology.

LR,

I appreciate your posts a little more.  I still disagree, but I appreciate your style.  As for the verses indicating Jesus will return visibly and physically, I posted them earlier in this thread.

In Christ,
KP

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #74 on: Wed Nov 04, 2009 - 13:45:36 »



Offline rezar

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #75 on: Wed Nov 04, 2009 - 16:08:22 »
rezar are you an evolutionist?  You act like one...even when the facts fly in the face of what you hold so dear, you act like I am ignorant and stupid for not sharing your belief.

As for Parousia, the definition you give is incomplete.  I know greek, I have been studying it for years.  You cannot change the definition of a word simply to fit your theology.

LR,

I appreciate your posts a little more.  I still disagree, but I appreciate your style.  As for the verses indicating Jesus will return visibly and physically, I posted them earlier in this thread.

In Christ,
KP

Well, what does anyone believing in evolution or part of it have to do with Eschatology that we are discussing? I find your post to be a little intolerant of other's pov.
We Preterists have Scripture to back up our interpretations - whereas you have not proved anything to me about Christ, except something negative.
Whether or not one knows the "parousia" or Christ's return as His Second Coming- it's the nature of His coming that you do not understand.
Some will read Greek, some Hebrew, some will be teachers & some will not. But it is also true, that not all of us can prophesy, or understand prophesy. Not all could be prophets. Never needed to be.


Offline N8te720

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #76 on: Fri Nov 06, 2009 - 00:36:38 »
Elijah, this is the one time I disagree with you.

Offline rezar

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #77 on: Fri Nov 06, 2009 - 07:24:49 »
Elijah, this is the one time I disagree with you.

You speak, but do not present the Catholic girl's ( Margaret Macdonald's) proof of the vision she had in 1830?

After all, the Catholic girl created the dispensational pov after 1800 yrs!

C'mon, i want to read your proof from the Catholic girl!


Offline Geezer

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #78 on: Fri Nov 06, 2009 - 12:58:56 »
The Rapture, as commonly understood, is technically a false belief. I say technically because it is often confused with the second coming, which is a valid doctrine. Trinity and rapture are non Biblical words and I usually avoid using them. The alternative of the two are "Godhead" and "Second coming." But I'm not making a big issue of this.

The popular viewpoint or Paradigm of Bible Prophesy today is that all prophesy in the Bible is yet in our future - not so. You have to study history in order to determine what is past and what is future. Most of Prophesy is past or fulfilled. The popular view sees actually four comings of Christ. This makes Bible study of Eschatology very complicated where it is actually very simple. God doesn't expect us all to have a PHD in Bible studies to understand what he is doing. It is simple not complex.

Dispensational View..

First coming - Jesus in the manger.

Second coming - The secret coming commonly called the Rapture.  

Third coming  - Third coming after the so called 7 year tribulation. Christ sets up his earthly kingdom.

Forth Coming - Christ returns on the stage of history and destroyes the evildoers

In my opinion the Bible only tells of two comings. The manger and the final coming where He destroyes the earth and all of the evildoers.
 



Offline rezar

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #79 on: Fri Nov 06, 2009 - 15:53:20 »
by Geezer,

Quote
In my opinion the Bible only tells of two comings. The manger and the final coming where He destroyes the earth and all of the evildoers.

Hmm. I think i believe someone will come back from the dead before something like that!

God divinely decreed the enemies of the growing church (the Judaizers) to be killed in the siege. That is when Christ destroyed the "evildoers" of this world.
2Thess. 1:1-10,
Greeting
 1 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy,

To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
God’s Final Judgment and Glory
   
3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe,[a] because our testimony among you was believed.

The sword of the spirit is not a literal sword coming out the Lord's mouth. (Rev.19) His weapons are not carnal. Jesus reigns on His eternal throne now.
There is no "military might" to come & solve the "sinning" problem.  We see the sinners right outside our church gates- those needing to wash their robes as we have.

There is still sin right outside our new Jerusalem city gates.  The official coming of His kingdom & the kingdom of believers is where righteousness dwells. The universal church worships in spirit & truth.
But sin & evil didn't end. There is only 1 place where all are perfectly sinless- that is in heaven.

But Faith & obedience is what He wrote for this life on earth.

I have never seen the righteous forsaken either.

Keep the Faith,

Praise God.


Amo

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #80 on: Sat Nov 07, 2009 - 08:53:33 »
Quote
Hmm. I think i believe someone will come back from the dead before something like that!

God divinely decreed the enemies of the growing church (the Judaizers) to be killed in the siege. That is when Christ destroyed the "evildoers" of this world.
2Thess. 1:1-10,
Greeting
 1 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy,

To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
God’s Final Judgment and Glory
   
3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe,[a] because our testimony among you was believed.
The sword of the spirit is not a literal sword coming out the Lord's mouth. (Rev.19) His weapons are not carnal. Jesus reigns on His eternal throne now.
There is no "military might" to come & solve the "sinning" problem.  We see the sinners right outside our church gates- those needing to wash their robes as we have.

There is still sin right outside our new Jerusalem city gates.  The official coming of His kingdom & the kingdom of believers is where righteousness dwells. The universal church worships in spirit & truth.
But sin & evil didn't end. There is only 1 place where all are perfectly sinless- that is in heaven.

But Faith & obedience is what He wrote for this life on earth.

I have never seen the righteous forsaken either.

Keep the Faith,

Praise God.


Jer 25:  30 Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth.
31 A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD.
32 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.
33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.

Jer 4: 23 I beheld the earth, and, lo was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. 24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. 25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. 26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

Isaiah 14  12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. 16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; 17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? 18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house. 19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet. 20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

Isaiah 24  18 And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake. 19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly. 20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again. 21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. 22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited. 23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.




Offline rezar

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #81 on: Sat Nov 07, 2009 - 09:05:09 »

Not reading your post, Amo. I can post Bible verses too (from accurate versions that is)
You are trying to upstage me & you don't listen.  

That is why you don't learn.  Ignorance, once known, is not bliss!

Amo

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #82 on: Sat Nov 07, 2009 - 09:10:02 »
Quote
Not reading your post, Amo. You are trying to upstage me & you don't listen.

That is why you don't learn.  Ignorance, once known, is not bliss!

Apparently you are under the misguided impression that anyone who does not agree with what you say, necessarily is not listening to what you have to say.  That would be a lot of people that disagree with you. 

Offline rezar

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #83 on: Sat Nov 07, 2009 - 09:42:35 »
Quote
Not reading your post, Amo. You are trying to upstage me & you don't listen.

That is why you don't learn.  Ignorance, once known, is not bliss!

Apparently you are under the misguided impression that anyone who does not agree with what you say, necessarily is not listening to what you have to say.  That would be a lot of people that disagree with you. 
No, i said it was true of you, though!

Bikelite

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #84 on: Sun Nov 08, 2009 - 17:23:58 »
Elijsh my old friend I see you are still at Lucifers work.

k-pappy

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #85 on: Mon Nov 09, 2009 - 09:56:38 »

Not reading your post, Amo. I can post Bible verses too (from accurate versions that is)
You are trying to upstage me & you don't listen.  

That is why you don't learn.  Ignorance, once known, is not bliss!

Ah yes...if someone does not agree with you, then they are ignorant.

Here is a tip...if your teaching only fits one translation of God's Word, then you probably need to change your teaching.

In Christ,
KP

Offline rezar

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #86 on: Mon Nov 09, 2009 - 10:57:56 »

Not reading your post, Amo. I can post Bible verses too (from accurate versions that is)
You are trying to upstage me & you don't listen. 

That is why you don't learn.  Ignorance, once known, is not bliss!

Ah yes...if someone does not agree with you, then they are ignorant.

Here is a tip...if your teaching only fits one translation of God's Word, then you probably need to change your teaching.

In Christ,
KP
Not for nothing kp, you are still "coveting" my posts & taking them a little more personally than necessary. That's my observation.
There is only one Truth to end-times. And Scripture & history is proof of fulfilled prophecy/eschatology.
Jesus & the Apostles were preterists.  But you can believe whatever you like. We know NOTHING was unfulfilled in the 1st century AD.

That's not a "tip" or "advice" either.  It's a word of knowledge for edification.  You do believe the spiritual gifts haven't ceased, don't you?

I'm not trying to "offend" you personally.  Do i consider one "ignorant" bc they haven't read Josephus' works?

The definition of "ignorance" just means to without knowledge of something. It's not meant to (the dictionary definition) be derogatory. Ignorance can also be knowing something, but ignoring it. That's basically what happens with those against Preterism.

Someone can point out the truth in Scripture & history to them- but they will ignore that pov & the truth at the same time. Why, bc the ego man wants to defend what he thought was his idea - even though the prophetic language is shown to him to not be LITERAL.

Preterists disagree with your LITERAL view of the apocalypse & end-times.

That's it.  The Truth is that it is either Literal or NOT. That's the teaching & translation to you now. It can only be ONE. I can disagree with you & vice-versa, but there is only one answer. ::smile::





k-pappy

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #87 on: Mon Nov 09, 2009 - 11:40:09 »
So now I am ignorant and you are going to presume to judge me based on what?  Very little.

Nothing you said in your post is correct.  Am I offended at your belief system?  No.

What offends me is your arrogance at claiming to have the sole truth and your disparaging remarks to anyone who believes differently than you.  I am also offended when you lie and say you have proven from history.  I have asked three times and you have not once proven from history that the prophesies have come to pass.  Nor have you proven from scripture.  You have toed the party line, and receited the doctrine wonderfully, but no proof, no evidence has been offered.

I'll let you have the last word, and then I am done.  You are apparently not interest in discussion, only pushing your doctrine and insulting anyone who differs.

FYI, I have read Josephus' works.  They are a good historical account, but they do not support the preterist pov.

In Christ,
KP

Offline rezar

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #88 on: Mon Nov 09, 2009 - 12:48:53 »
So now I am ignorant and you are going to presume to judge me based on what?  Very little.

Nothing you said in your post is correct.  Am I offended at your belief system?  No.

What offends me is your arrogance at claiming to have the sole truth and your disparaging remarks to anyone who believes differently than you.  I am also offended when you lie and say you have proven from history.  I have asked three times and you have not once proven from history that the prophesies have come to pass.  Nor have you proven from scripture.  You have toed the party line, and receited the doctrine wonderfully, but no proof, no evidence has been offered.

I'll let you have the last word, and then I am done.  You are apparently not interest in discussion, only pushing your doctrine and insulting anyone who differs.

FYI, I have read Josephus' works.  They are a good historical account, but they do not support the preterist pov.

In Christ,
KP

Yes, well many will disagree with you about Josephus, if not all. And i find it strange that you think the way you do after reading Josephus. ::pondering::

Am i offended that you call me arrogant & a liar?  I'm not that sensitive, thank God. You shouldn't be judging your sister in Christ anyway- so it is not my problem.
Many are challenged by smart people. I am too. But not necessarily on the subject of end-times.
Preterism has Scripture on its side. It will win out all in the end. I'm glad to have realized the prophecy instead of having gotten caught up in "the last day madness" - a negative reflection of Christianity.

Consider this one verse anyway. I cannot force anyone to read preterist books if they choose to deny God's time frame & read spoon-fed fiction.

Rev.1:1,
 1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place.

Now i ask you, can God tell time? Futuristic eschatology fails with that one verse. And it is repeated in the very last chapter of the Christian Bible.

Now i ask you too- just how you will insult anyone's intelligence & twist God's words if He meant anything besides what He plainly meant?

See what i mean? Why should i even have to ask? God gave us the answer already.

Preterism.

Amo

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #89 on: Mon Nov 09, 2009 - 19:40:15 »
Just a few scriptures to chew on.

Matt 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Matt 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

Matt 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Matt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Luke 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

Heb 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

2 Pet 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
…………………………….......
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;……………………………...............
3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep,
all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; [/u]and there was no more sea.

Isa 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Isa 24:1 Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.
2 And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him.
3 The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word.

Isa 24:18 And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.
19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

Isa 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 or, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Isa 28:21 For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.
22 Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord GOD of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth.

Isa 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Jer 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.


Jer 10:10 But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.
11 Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.

Jer 25:29 For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts.
30 Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth.
31 A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD.
32 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.
33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.


Ezek 38:19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.

Joel 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.

Joel 2: 10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Joel 3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

Zeph 3: 8 Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.






















Offline rezar

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #90 on: Mon Nov 09, 2009 - 20:28:57 »

Wow, that was blinding! - & they expect you to read it?

Offline freeman4

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #91 on: Thu Nov 26, 2009 - 10:58:14 »
This is a topic that no matter who believes what, will not end with any  agreement because of the interpretation of the Scriptures. One believes that this says this and that one believes that says that. But you know, it really does not matter because what will come will come. I have my thoughts on this, but what the heck, no matter what my thoughts are, it will different from anyone else. So here we go again. Just believe in God and see what happens.

 

Offline rezar

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #92 on: Thu Nov 26, 2009 - 11:24:28 »
This is a topic that no matter who believes what, will not end with any  agreement because of the interpretation of the Scriptures. One believes that this says this and that one believes that says that. But you know, it really does not matter because what will come will come. I have my thoughts on this, but what the heck, no matter what my thoughts are, it will different from anyone else. So here we go again. Just believe in God and see what happens.

 


Yes, that's true. But didn't Jesus die in the flesh?

That explains it for me. 

Stucky

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #93 on: Thu Nov 26, 2009 - 19:06:45 »
"Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. Rev 7:3"

Taken out of context.  Has nothing to do with the rapture.  Is talking about the 144,000 believing Jews that evangelize before the 2nd coming of Jesus.

"the Elect obey God and Keep his commandments words and sayings John 14:14-23 (KJV) John 8:43 (KJV), So the Lord will Seal them because of the obediece to him"

John 14:14-23 (New International Version)
14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
 15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[a] in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
 22Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, "But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?"

 23Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.


Jesus is giving instructions to His disciples.  Has nothing to do with the rapture.

John 8:43 (New International Version)
43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.

Sorry, you completely lost me on this one.  Your quote is nothing like the quote from the NIV.

"Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. 21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
Isaiah 26:20-21 (KJV)"



Isaiah 26:20-21 (New International Version)

 20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
       and shut the doors behind you;
       hide yourselves for a little while
       until his wrath has passed by.

 21 See, the LORD is coming out of his dwelling
       to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
       The earth will disclose the blood shed upon her;
       she will conceal her slain no longer.

While the believing dead of the Old Testament will be resurrected, it won’t happen until the end of the Great Tribulation (Daniel 12:2). And while the living remnant will flee into the mountains of Judea at it’s beginning (Matt. 24:15), the actual order of these events will be the opposite of their mention here. And besides, Rev. 6:17 shows that God’s wrath begins several years before the appearance of the Abomination of Desolation, the sign Jesus gave the Jews as a signal to flee.   Not by any stretch of the imagination has this passage been literally fulfilled in the past, nor will it be by the Jewish remnant.

This is an End Times prophecy that first promises a resurrection of the dead, followed by the hiding of God’s people while His Wrath is unleashed on the people of Earth for their sins. It’s so startlingly similar to Paul’s message to the Church In 1 Thes. 4-5 that I’m convinced it’s “the Lord’s own word
« Last Edit: Thu Nov 26, 2009 - 19:53:30 by Stucky »

Stucky

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #94 on: Thu Nov 26, 2009 - 20:06:59 »
Continuation of Reply #93

"Even the sinners shall be Changed


And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
Rev 9:6 (KJV)


For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord 1 Thess 4:15 (KJV)"


Rev. 9:6 Has nothing to do with the rapture.  Deals with the tribulation.

As regards 1 Thess. 4:15:
People had asked Paul what would happen to their loved ones who were dying. Would they miss out on the promises to the Church? (1 Thes. 4:13) He said that church age believers who die before the rapture will be resurrected at the Rapture and receive their part in the Church’s blessings.

Believers who die during the Great Tribulation are not members of the Church, because they won’t become believers until after the Church is raptured. They’re called Tribulation believers and they have a different destiny than the Church. The ones who are martyred will be servants to the Lord in His Temple (Rev. 7:15 )and those who survive will re-populate Earth during the Millennium (Matt. 25:34). The Church will dwell in the New Jerusalem as the Bride of Christ.


"Now when Is Jesus coming?


Immediately after the tribulation Matt 24:27-31 (KJV)"


Refers to the 2nd coming.

"Now who are these in sleep in Jesus 1 Thess 4:14 (KJV)"

Is speaking of the 2nd coming.


"We Know when Jesus Died on the Cross he went to hell that day as the Scripture says in Jonah 2:1 (KJV) Matt 12:40 (KJV)"

Jonah 2:1 (New International Version)

Jonah 2
Jonah's Prayer
 1 From inside the fish Jonah prayed to the LORD his God.

Matthew 12:40 (New International Version)
40For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

I'm not disagreeing with your statement that Jesus went to hell after He died but this verse just says how long Jesus would be there and has nothing to do with the rapture.


"By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison 1 Peter 3:19 (KJV)

That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves.

Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? Eph 4:8-9 (KJV)

To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. Isaiah 42:7

Jesus Took all of those that Believe In Him out of captivity And

Put them in another captivity **Were They are today** sleep in Jesus 1 Thess 4:14 (KJV) These People are all those before Christ"


I have no problem with these verses dealing with Jesus visiting hell but they have nothing to do with the rapture.

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God

the dead in Christ shall rise first 1 Thess 4:16 (KJV)

Which will happen when Jesus returns Immediately after the tribulation

all the apostles and prophet, that gave their life for God, will be there in this day"


Has to do with the pre-tribulation rapture

"Now who are these that are alive and remaining?


These are they which came out of great tribulation Rev 7:14 (KJV)"


Yes, the believers that were killed by the anti-christ.

"Rev 19:11 (KJV) Is the Saints, these are they which are alive and remain

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war."


Has nothing to do with the saints.  It describes the 2nd coming of Christ.

"Now this is the meeting in the air

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. Jude 1:14-15 (KJV)

Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world?

and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 1 Cor 6:2-3 (KJV)"


Jude 1:14-15 Has to do with the 2nd coming of Christ.

1 Cor 6:2-3 instructions to the believers of old on how to comport themselves.


"How can the saints Judge the world if they are in Heaven?

and why would Jesus bring the sleeping Jesus with him when he comes?

if every one is Going to heaven?"


The saints will judge the world in the Millenium.  I have no idea what you are talking about with "the sleeping Jesus"

"Dont you know heaven is Coming here on earth? that God is going to set up his city made with out hands, here on earth

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Rev 21:2 (KJV)"


True, after the 2nd coming of Christ.


THE END (Finally)



 







« Last Edit: Thu Nov 26, 2009 - 21:02:38 by Stucky »

Stucky

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Re: The Church is not Raptured
« Reply #95 on: Thu Nov 26, 2009 - 21:04:30 »
This is a topic that no matter who believes what, will not end with any  agreement because of the interpretation of the Scriptures. One believes that this says this and that one believes that says that. But you know, it really does not matter because what will come will come. I have my thoughts on this, but what the heck, no matter what my thoughts are, it will different from anyone else. So here we go again. Just believe in God and see what happens.

 


Yes, that's true. But didn't Jesus die in the flesh?

That explains it for me. 

You guys are wonderful.   ::clappingoverhead::

 

     
anything