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Author Topic: The dead in Christ shall Rise  (Read 6925 times)

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Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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The dead in Christ shall Rise
« on: Fri Nov 13, 2009 - 13:21:54 »
I think most of us are familiar with these verses:

1Th 4:15 - For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] REMAIN unto the coming of the Lord shall not PREVENT them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 - For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a SHOUT, with the voice of the archangel, and with the TRUMP of God: and the dead in Christ shall RISE first:
1Th 4:17 - Then we which are alive [and] REMAIN shall be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the AIR: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

There seems to be disagreement about what it all means.  I wanted to share a few notes on what some of these words mean in Greek and what questions and conclusions I'm led to.

REMAIN - The Greek word carries a 2nd meaning of "survive."  Considering the phrase here "Alive and Remain" this seems to be the meaning intended.  So then the question is, "survive what?"

PREVENT - funny choice of word.  The Greek actually means "to come before, precede."  So it means the living will not go on to glory before the dead.  I can only conclude that the time that the living are "caught up" is the same time that the dead are raised.

SHOUT & TRUMP - Strong's concordance gives the definition as:

1) an order, command, spec. a stimulating cry, either that by which animals are roused and urged on by man, as horses by charioteers, hounds by hunters, etc., or that by which a signal is given to men, e.g. to rowers by the master of a ship, to soldiers by a commander

This seems to be more than just a shout, it seems to be the command to "CHARGE!"  Note also the TRUMP that comes at the same time is a universal military signal meaning charge.  What is pictured seems to be an attack, or invasion.  This does not seem to fit with the "thief in the night" description given elsewhere in Scripture.

RISE - For the longest time, I thought this mean that they would start floating or flying.  Turns out, the word actually means "to stand up," especially in the sense of someone getting out of bed in the morning.

CAUGHT UP - Greek Harpazo means "to seize, to carry away by force."  Again, this seems violent, not secret.

AIR - The Greek word is Aer it just means air.  Well sort of.  Turns out the Greeks only used this word for the air here near to the ground.  They called the air higher up in the atmosphere, and the void of space "aither" instead of air.  It doesn't sound like it's talking about us flying away to the highest heaven.  More of He's coming down to the lowest part.

There ya go,

Jarrod

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The dead in Christ shall Rise
« on: Fri Nov 13, 2009 - 13:21:54 »

Stucky

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Re: The dead in Christ shall Rise
« Reply #1 on: Sat Nov 14, 2009 - 14:59:04 »
 ???

"There seems to be disagreement about what it all means.  I wanted to share a few notes on what some of these words mean in Greek and what questions and conclusions I'm led to."




Okay, Wycliffes_Shillelagh, I give up, what is your conclusion about the full meaning of the Scripture?  ::reading::

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Re: The dead in Christ shall Rise
« Reply #1 on: Sat Nov 14, 2009 - 14:59:04 »

Offline rezar

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Re: The dead in Christ shall Rise
« Reply #2 on: Sun Nov 15, 2009 - 11:12:07 »
"The dead shall rise up"  Yes, they did. Or the prophecy has long exhausted its credibility.
Deut. 18:22, 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

The living were only spiritually raised. We know this bc the Apostle John lived beyond the resurrection of the dead in AD70, & was seen too many times to overcome with "a rapture" idea.

We are literally caught up (our spirit) when we die though, similar to the resurrection of the corporate dead to heaven from hades in AD70. In that sense "rapture" is literal. When we die physically.


Bikelite

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Re: The dead in Christ shall Rise
« Reply #3 on: Sun Nov 15, 2009 - 11:43:49 »
Its  very simple, As in the bible you where made of dust , so you shall go back to dust. That is the body, the spirit is a thing that will not die, it goes to heaven or hell simple. This is where people dont get it ,  when Christ comes in the Rapture the dead will rise , not their souls but their new heavenly bodies and will unit with the soul. AS the living when we are raptured our bodies are changed into the new heavenly body , the soul and the body are one because we are alive. , It remindes me of the Question where did Jesus go when he died...... for three days ... he went to Abahams bosom to collect the faithful to take them to heaven , bcause before Christ died no no went to heaven but after the lamb that was slayen everything changed. What did Christ say to thief on the cross , today you will be with in paridise. not heaven.
« Last Edit: Sun Nov 15, 2009 - 12:10:29 by Bikelite »

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Re: The dead in Christ shall Rise
« Reply #3 on: Sun Nov 15, 2009 - 11:43:49 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline Lame Ranger

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Re: The dead in Christ shall Rise
« Reply #4 on: Sun Nov 15, 2009 - 19:51:31 »
Hi Bikelite
Quote
It remindes me of the Question where did Jesus go when he died...... for three days ... he went to Abahams bosom to collect the faithful to take them to heaven ,

I have forgotten where this is in the bible, could you give me chapter and verse?

Thank you

LR

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Re: The dead in Christ shall Rise
« Reply #4 on: Sun Nov 15, 2009 - 19:51:31 »



Amo

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Re: The dead in Christ shall Rise
« Reply #5 on: Sun Nov 15, 2009 - 21:16:29 »
Quote
I have forgotten where this is in the bible, could you give me chapter and verse?

It is not in the bible.

Stucky

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Re: The dead in Christ shall Rise
« Reply #6 on: Sun Nov 15, 2009 - 21:36:06 »
Hi Bikelite
Quote
It remindes me of the Question where did Jesus go when he died...... for three days ... he went to Abahams bosom to collect the faithful to take them to heaven ,

I have forgotten where this is in the bible, could you give me chapter and verse?

Thank you

LR

I found this dissertation regarding your question:

Where did Jesus go after He died on the cross?

The Bible does not specifically state what happened to Jesus immediately after He died on the cross.  Because of this, there is debate surrounding the answer to the question of where He went and what He did.  So, I will present differing views so you might know the scope of the answer and decide for yourself which position is preferable.

Perhaps the best known scripture that appears to deal with this issue is found in 1 Pet. 3:18-20,

"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water."

When Jesus was made alive in the spirit, it is not saying that His spirit died and then it became alive again.  "Made alive in the spirit" is contrasted with "put to death in the flesh."  He first lived as mortal men but "...He began to live a spiritual 'resurrection' life, whereby He has the power to bring us to God."1  Furthermore, some Bibles (NIV, KJV, and NKJV) render the verse as "made alive by the Spirit," referring to the Holy Spirit's work with Christ.   “By the Spirit

Offline freeman4

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Re: The dead in Christ shall Rise
« Reply #7 on: Thu Nov 26, 2009 - 10:46:19 »
Now what exactly is a Bosom? If you can find what a “bosom

Offline p-nut

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Re: The dead in Christ shall Rise
« Reply #8 on: Thu Nov 26, 2009 - 13:40:37 »
Looks like bikelite has it right:   ::applause::
Quote
That is the body, the spirit is a thing that will not die, it goes to heaven or hell simple. This is where people dont get it ,  when Christ comes in the Rapture the dead will rise, not their souls but their new heavenly bodies and will unit with the soul. AS the living when we are raptured our bodies are changed into the new heavenly body , the soul and the body are one because we are alive.

The Thessalonians were concerned what would happen to their love ones who had already died in Christ. The answer is given by Paul in;

1 Thess 4:14 NIV
We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

When its rapture time, Jesus will bring back with him the souls of those asleep in Christ to be reunited with their resurrected bodies.  Since the beginning of the church at Pentecost many Christian have died in the Lord. In the future when the church is snatched up to the Lord, those who remain, or are still alive “will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep

Offline freeman4

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Re: The dead in Christ shall Rise
« Reply #9 on: Thu Nov 26, 2009 - 18:41:01 »
The body is the soul. God breathed into the nostrils of man and man became a living SOUL.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: The dead in Christ shall Rise
« Reply #10 on: Thu Nov 26, 2009 - 22:29:35 »
Okay, Wycliffes_Shillelagh, I give up, what is your conclusion about the full meaning of the Scripture?  ::reading::
It doesn't sound like it's talking about us flying away to the highest heaven.  More of He's coming down to the lowest part...to stay.

Offline glen

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Re: The dead in Christ shall Rise
« Reply #11 on: Sun Dec 06, 2009 - 23:45:20 »
Now what exactly is a Bosom? If you can find what a “bosom

Stucky

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Re: The dead in Christ shall Rise
« Reply #12 on: Sun Dec 06, 2009 - 23:52:18 »
Okay, Wycliffes_Shillelagh, I give up, what is your conclusion about the full meaning of the Scripture?  ::reading::
It doesn't sound like it's talking about us flying away to the highest heaven.  More of He's coming down to the lowest part...to stay.


You're correct.  It's the second coming of Christ.