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Author Topic: The Judgment Seat of Christ  (Read 5341 times)

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Offline soterion

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Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ
« Reply #35 on: Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 07:58:52 »
The scripture you bring to the table is of a future viewpoint of Jesus receiving His own throne.
Rev 4:1 ... I will shew thee things which must be hereafter... (what things)

Let's try that again. I'll keep it simple. In Revelation 4:1-5:14, who is the Lamb who takes the scroll from the hand of the One sitting on the throne?

As to the meaning of, "...the things which must be hereafter...", Revelation should be read from the viewpoint of when it was written. It was written sometime in the first century to the seven churches of Asia. "Hereafter" should be understood from the viewpoint of John who wrote it and from the viewpoint of those who received it from John in those days.

Now, don't forget my question. If Jesus is the One seated on the throne in Rev chapters 4 and 5, then who is the Lamb?  ::smile::

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Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ
« Reply #35 on: Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 07:58:52 »

Offline soterion

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Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ
« Reply #36 on: Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 08:20:12 »
Revelation 1:9-11.
I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet saying, “Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.”

John was on the island Patmos, he was under the influence of the Spirit of God and he was told to write down what he sees in a book and to send that book to the seven churches. This occurred on a day John referred to as the Lord's day. The Lord's day is a day on which John received the instruction to write the book we call Revelation.

I see it simply as the first day of the week. I see zero justification to assign some apocalyptic meaning to it. It can't be the Last Day since it existed prior to the writing of Revelation; it was a day that existed in the first century. As far as I am concerned, there have been weekly Lord's days ever since until now. ::smile::

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Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ
« Reply #36 on: Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 08:20:12 »

Offline larry2

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Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ
« Reply #37 on: Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 11:10:34 »
Why would "John be caught backward to the Lord's Day"? That makes no sense.

You’re right, but I thought you said that the Lord’s Day was the last day, and there is much judgment and wrath occurs from that point forward.


I don't think it is very difficult. It is as Jesus taught. He is coming back. Then for this world, the works of this world, & the wicked, it's "that's all folks".

When is Jesus coming back, and to where?


I don't think it is very difficult. It is as Jesus taught. He is coming back. Then for this world, the works of this world, & the wicked, it's "that's all folks".

When is Jesus coming back, and to where?


I think the Apostle Peter summed up what the Lord Jesus Christ taught him quite succinctly:

"10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

But if the Lord’s Day lasts for a thousand as much of the Church thinks to be the length of Christ’s reign, many of the things you listed can happen in that time. I just can’t believe that a real thousand years isn’t involved in Jesus’ reign.
2Pe 3:8  But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Rev 20:2  And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:7  And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,


Offline lea

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Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ
« Reply #38 on: Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 11:15:11 »
Back to the topic of The Bema Seat of Christ:

Our faithful acts (or not) are being recorded now. But the Bema seat judgment surely takes place after the death of the believer. It's still ongoing.
 Loss or gain of rewards at the Bema. 1 Cor 13:13-15: “each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. 14 If any man’s work which he has built upon it remains, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire .

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Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ
« Reply #38 on: Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 11:15:11 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline larry2

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Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ
« Reply #39 on: Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 15:35:35 »
Back to the topic of The Bema Seat of Christ:

Our faithful acts (or not) are being recorded now. But the Bema seat judgment surely takes place after the death of the believer. It's still ongoing.
 Loss or gain of rewards at the Bema. 1 Cor 13:13-15: “each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. 14 If any man’s work which he has built upon it remains, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire .[
/color]”

Hi Lea, and sorry I took so long getting back to you. Your post here certainly pertains to the Judgment Seat of Christ, and what God considers acceptable; all other works goes up as dross and ashes before the testing fire of God’s word.

This just came to mind, and that is how many fast. What are they doing it for?
Isa 58:4  Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high.
Isa 58:6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?
Isa 58:7  Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?
 
This fast brings reward, and as to being judged after we’re dead, our qualifications for reward is established here and now.
Rev 22:12  And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

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Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ
« Reply #39 on: Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 15:35:35 »



Offline larry2

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Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ
« Reply #40 on: Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 16:03:55 »

I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day.
This occurred on a day John referred to as the Lord's day.
I see it simply as the first day of the week.


Hi Soterion. Do you really see a difference in the term "The day of the Lord, and the Lord's Day?"

There are many that see the Lord's Day as being Sunday, and I'd have to ask why.

Is there really a difference where John was asked to "Come up hither" into heaven in Rev 4:1?

The Apostle Paul experience a similar meeting with our risen Lord.
2Co 12:2  I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3  And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
2Co 12:4  How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.




Offline TonkaTim

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Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ
« Reply #41 on: Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 16:17:15 »
You’re right, but I thought you said that the Lord’s Day was the last day, and there is much judgment and wrath occurs from that point forward.

When is Jesus coming back, and to where?

But if the Lord’s Day lasts for a thousand as much of the Church thinks to be the length of Christ’s reign, many of the things you listed can happen in that time. I just can’t believe that a real thousand years isn’t involved in Jesus’ reign.
2Pe 3:8  But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Rev 20:2  And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:7  And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,


I'm glad you cited 2 Peter it is like Psalms 90:4 "For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night" Which illustrates it is a long indeterminate period of time. The Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ , in the very first verse, tells us it is 'signified', meaning symbolic. The Revelation of Jesus Christ is very signified written in very prophetic language.

John, the Apostle, who wrote down the Revelation of Jesus Christ also wrote Gospel of John. In John's account of the Gospel he also recounted Christ's very words in which where Jesus tells about the resurrection & judgment being at/in the last day. Why I cited them. Why I also cited the scriptures that clearly shows Christ's reign is now. These scriptures have to be reconciled together, scripture must reveal scripture. When done one can not draw the conclusion & hold to doctrine that is contrary to scripture. To literalize those verse in chapter 20, It means either Jesus, Martha, & John are wrong in John's Gospel, or John is wrong in chapter 20. If it is literal one or the other is wrong. If it is signified as instructed in the very first verse of the Book then it means a long time like in 2 Peter & the Psalms.

We know Jesus is not wrong. We know Martha is not wrong because the testimony of Jesus confirms her witness. We know that Scripture is not wrong. Therefore must be signified as the first verse of the book tells us & means, what seems to us, a long indeterminate period of time.

That signified scripture states the limits to Satan's binding. It states "he should deceive the nations no more". Jesus talked about this when he talked about the binding of the strong man in Mark 3. Whom Jesus called the Prince of this world. When did Jesus say he would be cast out. meaning bound so the Gospel would go into the world to plunder the strongman's house? Jesus said:

"Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out" John 12


Jesus said now.

He said now during passion week before He was crucified. We have witnessed the binding of Satan as the Gospel has been spread around the entire world as our Lord has plundered the strongman's house. We'll know that Satan is unbound when he once again freed to deceive the nations yet again. It will be as the scriptures tells us, the great falling away, the little season. Which many believe may well be upon us now.

Offline larry2

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Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ
« Reply #42 on: Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 16:40:29 »

I'm glad you cited 2 Peter it is like Psalms 90:4 "For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night" Which illustrates it is a long indeterminate period of time. The Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ , in the very first verse, tells us it is 'signified', meaning symbolic. The Revelation of Jesus Christ is very signified written in very prophetic language.

John, the Apostle, who wrote down the Revelation of Jesus Christ also wrote Gospel of John. In John's account of the Gospel he also recounted Christ's very words in which where Jesus tells about the resurrection & judgment being at/in the last day. Why I cited them. Why I also cited the scriptures that clearly shows Christ's reign is now. These scriptures have to be reconciled together, scripture must reveal scripture. When done one can not draw the conclusion & hold to doctrine that is contrary to scripture. To literalize those verse in chapter 20, It means either Jesus, Martha, & John are wrong in John's Gospel, or John is wrong in chapter 20. If it is literal one or the other is wrong. If it is signified as instructed in the very first verse of the Book then it means a long time like in 2 Peter & the Psalms.

We know Jesus is not wrong. We know Martha is not wrong because the testimony of Jesus confirms her witness. We know that Scripture is not wrong. Therefore must be signified as the first verse of the book tells us & means, what seems to us, a long indeterminate period of time.

That signified scripture states the limits to Satan's binding. It states "he should deceive the nations no more". Jesus talked about this when he talked about the binding of the strong man in Mark 3. Whom Jesus called the Prince of this world. When did Jesus say he would be cast out. meaning bound so the Gospel would go into the world to plunder the strongman's house? Jesus said:

"Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out" John 12

Jesus said now.

He said now during passion week before He was crucified. We have witnessed the binding of Satan as the Gospel has been spread around the entire world as our Lord has plundered the strongman's house. We'll know that Satan is unbound when he once again freed to deceive the nations yet again. It will be as the scriptures tells us, the great falling away, the little season. Which many believe may well be upon us now.


I'm sorry TonkaTim, but I just don't see your case of Last Day Lord's Day established. My understanding of the Judgment Seat of Christ is that it is ongoing as we walk in these bodies. In Revelation Chapters Two and Three we are told of good and evil, told to either repent, or continue in what we're doing, and John is in heaven being shown different ones arriving at different times as they are caught up unto our Lord. Thanks.


Offline TonkaTim

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Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ
« Reply #43 on: Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 17:28:07 »
I'm sorry TonkaTim, but I just don't see your case of Last Day Lord's Day established.
Regarding the last day I've mainly just quoted the scriptures, especially the testimony of Jesus. I believe they speak strongly declaring the obvious truth.


My understanding of the Judgment Seat of Christ is that it is ongoing as we walk in these bodies. [/size]

I quoted John 12:31 "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out" so yes I do believe their is judgement of this world now too, just as the binding of Satan (prince of this world be cast out) too . We witness this as the children of God are called, as they hear the voice of their master, the Good Shepard, the Lord Jesus Christ. Through the preaching of the Gospel as it has been spread around the entire world. We have witnessed it for many years.

Is it the final judgement when the Children of God receive their reward, their inheritance in the City of God where there is no night?

Or where the ungodly receive their reward of destruction in the lake of fire?


In Revelation Chapters Two and Three we are told of good and evil, told to either repent, or continue in what we're doing[/size]

In the letters to the Churches we see judgement of them too. Which we should expect; "17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator." 1 Peter 4:17
« Last Edit: Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 17:31:55 by TonkaTim »

Offline larry2

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Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ
« Reply #44 on: Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 18:29:37 »

Is it the final judgement when the Children of God receive their reward, their inheritance in the City of God where there is no night?

Or where the ungodly receive their reward of destruction in the lake of fire?

In the letters to the Churches we see judgement of them too. Which we should expect; "17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator." 1 Peter 4:17


When we die, judgment has already been passed, our reward given the moment we are in Jesus' presence. E.g., Smyrna receives the crown they have if remaing faithful unto death (Rev 2:10): they're the dead that rise first (1 Thes 4:16), also seen first in heaven with Jesus (Rev 4:4 - The 24 elders)  when He receives His own throne in Rev 4:2, and they were caught up prior to the tribulation to come. Next are the four beasts, or better translated as Living Ones seen in the midst of the throne (Rev 4:6). These are those caught up alive because the faithfully kept God's word and endured which are the church in Philadelphia (Rev 3:10). Reward? you bet, and this is just a part of it.

What is jointheirship? What is qualifying to be in the bride of Christ reigning with Him (Rev 19:7-8). Will those of the Great Multitude have the same reward that come out of great tribulation (Rev 7:14), instead of crowns as those of Smyrna and Philadelphia, they have palms in their hands (Rev 7:9), and they become servants before the throne of God in His temple instead of of being in the midst of the throne reigning over the earth as kings and priests (Rev 5:10).

Offline soterion

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Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ
« Reply #45 on: Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 19:13:23 »
Back to the topic of The Bema Seat of Christ:

Our faithful acts (or not) are being recorded now. But the Bema seat judgment surely takes place after the death of the believer. It's still ongoing.
 Loss or gain of rewards at the Bema. 1 Cor 13:13-15: “each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. 14 If any man’s work which he has built upon it remains, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire .

Going by both the context and the Greek, I can't possibly link 2 Corinthians 5:10 with 1 Corinthians 3:13-15.

Context-wise, looking at 2 Corinthians 5:9-11, Paul says why we have as our ambition to be pleasing to Him, and why, therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade men; it is because there is a judgment coming that will encompass all. If this judgment was strictly for the saved, then there is no need to persuade men, which I believe refers to preaching to the lost. If this judgment is for all, then the need for this persuasion is very evident.

Greek-wise, this judgment will recompense each person according to what had been done, whether good or evil. The Greek words for both good and evil are used in John 5:29, another judgment-of-all passage. This is significant because the Greek word for evil in those passages is used only 6 times in the N.T. It leans toward moral deeds than anything else.

Unless anybody wants to believe that those in Christ will be judged for any evil deeds, then those evil deeds in 2 Cor 5:10 are committed by the unsaved and this judgment is the same all-encompassing judgment as is John 5:28-29, Matthew 25:31-46, as well as Ecclesiastes 12:13-14.
« Last Edit: Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 19:57:27 by soterion »

Offline soterion

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Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ
« Reply #46 on: Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 19:48:13 »
Hi Soterion. Do you really see a difference in the term "The day of the Lord, and the Lord's Day?"

Yes. Any difference will be seen in each context of its usage.

Quote
There are many that see the Lord's Day as being Sunday, and I'd have to ask why.

The Lord's day simply means, the day belonging to the Lord, or a day that is in some way peculiar to Him. On the first day of the week Jesus was risen. Afterward, the church regularly meets on the first day of the week, at the least. I think that would be enough to claim it as His day.

Quote
Is there really a difference where John was asked to "Come up hither" into heaven in Rev 4:1?

The Apostle Paul experience a similar meeting with our risen Lord.
2Co 12:2  I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3  And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
2Co 12:4  How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.[/size]

Well, Rev 4:1 does not refer to the same vision as Rev 1:10-11. By 4:1, John may have already been writing, or had already seen things that he will write down, according to the instructions given to him in 1:10-11.

As to comparing Rev 4 with 2 Cor 12:2-4, I obviously cannot say with any degree of dogmatism, but there appear to be differences. Paul was caught up to someplace called paradise; he doesn't know how he was caught up and he heard things that cannot be shared. John, on the other hand, was in the Spirit and he was told and shown things that he was instructed to write down. The difference may just be a matter of what they were told to say or not say, or the differences in those two experiences may be more significant than that.
« Last Edit: Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 19:57:09 by soterion »

Offline lea

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Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ
« Reply #47 on: Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 21:37:08 »
Hi Lea, and sorry I took so long getting back to you.  Your post here certainly pertains to the Judgment Seat of Christ, and what God considers acceptable; all other works goes up as dross and ashes before the testing fire of God’s word.

This just came to mind, and that is how many fast. What are they doing it for?
Isa 58:4  Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high.
Isa 58:6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?
Isa 58:7  Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?
 
This fast brings reward, and as to being judged after we’re dead, our qualifications for reward is established here and now.
Rev 22:12  And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Only the sentences in color make sense.
But it doesn't matter anyway. bro ::disco::

Offline Amo

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Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ
« Reply #48 on: Sat Apr 14, 2018 - 10:50:27 »
2Co 5:10  For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

When, and where does this occur?


There is judgement, as in judging something to be right or wrong, and then there is judgement as in the execution of the sentence pronounced after the same. The above scripture is no doubt in relation to the latter because the former is already finished. The execution of the sentence determined for all is begun at Christ's second coming when the saved receive their reward of eternal life, and the wicked begin to receive their reward for rejecting God's salvation. The final execution of which ends in the lake of fire a thousand years later according to scripture.

Offline larry2

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Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ
« Reply #49 on: Sat Apr 14, 2018 - 11:02:34 »
Yes. Any difference will be seen in each context of its usage.

The Lord's day simply means, the day belonging to the Lord, or a day that is in some way peculiar to Him. On the first day of the week Jesus was risen. Afterward, the church regularly meets on the first day of the week, at the least. I think that would be enough to claim it as His day.

True enough for sure, but is in every sense of the word "supposition" without other references to Sunday being dessignated as the Lord's Day. Jesus and the others actually went to the Jewish temples also on the seventh day of the week.


Well, Rev 4:1 does not refer to the same vision as Rev 1:10-11. By 4:1, John may have already been writing, or had already seen things that he will write down, according to the instructions given to him in 1:10-11.

I really doubt John could be accused of have something to bring to the table as it were, because it was Jesus sending His angel to show him what to write according to Rev 1:19  Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; (it is at this time John is told to write.)

Rev 1:10  I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day . . .
Rev 1:17  And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead.

I transcribed this following teaching from CD's by my friend Gene Hawkins.
"Revelation 1:10. "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet." Now we've come to one of those significant things absolutely vital that we understand beginning here with Verse Ten, and this is not
just an incidental thing; it is just absolutely filled with significant and symbolic language. "I was in the Spirit" should actually be translated "I was in Spirit" on the Lord's Day, and it's so important we understand that because John is not talking about being gathered on the Sabbath, Sunday, or any other select day; he says I was in Spirit on the Lord's Day as opposed to man's day. At this present time we are on the brink of leaving the times of the Gentiles which are man's day, and its contrast which is returning to Jewish times, or the Lord's times. Next we read a very significant portion of scripture here when John says "I was in Spirit on the Lord's Day, and heard behind me." Now John was not literally at the Lord's Day when he was on the Isle of Patmos, but he said I was in Spirit on the Lord's Day which means that the Spirit transported him to the end of this age, because he heard a voice behind me, a great voice as of a trumpet. Now when it says behind me, it means that the things that he saw had already taken place. They were behind him and he had to turn around in order to see them."



As to comparing Rev 4 with 2 Cor 12:2-4, I obviously cannot say with any degree of dogmatism, but there appear to be differences. Paul was caught up to someplace called paradise; he doesn't know how he was caught up and he heard things that cannot be shared. John, on the other hand, was in the Spirit and he was told and shown things that he was instructed to write down. The difference may just be a matter of what they were told to say or not say, or the differences in those two experiences may be more significant than that.

I do not know either brother, but I sure suspect the same experience of John and Paul.

Offline larry2

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Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ
« Reply #50 on: Sat Apr 14, 2018 - 11:20:34 »
There is judgement, as in judging something to be right or wrong, and then there is judgement as in the execution of the sentence pronounced after the same. The above scripture is no doubt in relation to the latter because the former is already finished. The execution of the sentence determined for all is begun at Christ's second coming when the saved receive their reward of eternal life, and the wicked begin to receive their reward for rejecting God's salvation. The final execution of which ends in the lake of fire a thousand years later according to scripture.

Hi AMO, would you consider that we who are caught up to be with the Lord in our respective orders, have already received our reward when we see Him, and any judgment was afforded us prior to that?

For instance, a sin unto death is certainly judgment; Moses experienced that on Mount Nebo (Deut 32:50), but we see him with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration. (Mar 9:4) Thanks.


Offline soterion

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Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ
« Reply #51 on: Sat Apr 14, 2018 - 15:01:10 »
True enough for sure, but is in every sense of the word "supposition" without other references to Sunday being dessignated as the Lord's Day. Jesus and the others actually went to the Jewish temples also on the seventh day of the week.

I am simply applying what to me is the best definition of Lord’s day that I can in that context. There is nothing revealed about that day to make me apply any other definition, certainly not the Last Day or a last day of anything, or some particular day of judgment or anything else. For example, this interpretation, provided by you or your source, makes no sense:

Quote
"I was in the Spirit" should actually be translated "I was in Spirit" on the Lord's Day, and it's so important we understand that because John is not talking about being gathered on the Sabbath, Sunday, or any other select day; he says I was in Spirit on the Lord's Day as opposed to man's day. At this present time we are on the brink of leaving the times of the Gentiles which are man's day, and its contrast which is returning to Jewish times, or the Lord's times. Next we read a very significant portion of scripture here when John says "I was in Spirit on the Lord's Day, and heard behind me." Now John was not literally at the Lord's Day when he was on the Isle of Patmos, but he said I was in Spirit on the Lord's Day which means that the Spirit transported him to the end of this age, because he heard a voice behind me, a great voice as of a trumpet. Now when it says behind me, it means that the things that he saw had already taken place. They were behind him and he had to turn around in order to see them."

The quote reads like a desperate attempt to complicate the context more than it has to be, just so it can fit it in some eschatology that also makes no sense. Sorry about the negativity, but you have to admit it is very over the top, speculatively speaking.

The reality is that John was under the influence of God’s Spirit on some particular day he called the Lord’s day, a period of time that existed just the same for everybody else, and he was told to write down what he sees into a book and to give that book to seven specifically named churches in Asia. That’s all we need to take from Rev 1:10-11.

As for Jesus and the others going to the synagogue, as we read about in the gospel accounts, of course. They were Jewish and the Law containing the commandment to obey the sabbath was still in place. When you read in Acts about any of the apostles going to the synagogues, you should be able to read and understand that they went there for evangelism, not worship. That was the best place and time to meet with an audience of Jews when the apostles' goal was to preach Jesus to them.

Offline larry2

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Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ
« Reply #52 on: Sat Apr 14, 2018 - 15:10:04 »
Your post here certainly pertains to the Judgment Seat of Christ, and what God considers acceptable; all other works goes up as dross and ashes before the testing fire of God’s word.

This just came to mind, and that is how many fast. What are they doing it for?
Isa 58:4  Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high.
Isa 58:6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?
Isa 58:7  Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?
This fast brings reward, and as to being judged after we’re dead, our qualifications for reward is established here and now.
Rev 22:12  And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.


Only the sentences in color make sense.
But it doesn't matter anyway. bro
::disco::

Hi Sis. I just noticed that you listed your scripture in a previous quote as 1 Cor 13:13-15, and it is in fact 1 Cor 3:13-15

1Co 3:13  Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14  If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

What I was attempting to show in posting fasting is that they were fasting for the wrong reasons. The fire of God's word will not reward that.

Repeated here for new comers to the thread:
Isa 58:4  Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high.

That is the form of judgment we read of with the churches addressed in Revelation Chapters Two & Three that will not receive reward.

Ephesus will not be rewarded for this following judgment: Rev 2:4  . . . thou hast left thy first love.

Rev 2:4  Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

Rev 2:14  But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam . .
Balac cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
Those practicing those things will not be rewarded for it.  Repent.

And it continues with the church in Thyatira said to even go into great tribulation if she didn't repent. Rev 2.22.



Offline larry2

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Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ
« Reply #53 on: Sat Apr 14, 2018 - 15:47:47 »

"I was in the Spirit" should actually be translated "I was in Spirit" on the Lord's Day, and it's so important we understand that because John is not talking about being gathered on the Sabbath, Sunday, or any other select day; he says I was in Spirit on the Lord's Day as opposed to man's day. At this present time we are on the brink of leaving the times of the Gentiles which are man's day, and its contrast which is returning to Jewish times, or the Lord's times. Next we read a very significant portion of scripture here when John says "I was in Spirit on the Lord's Day, and heard behind me." Now John was not literally at the Lord's Day when he was on the Isle of Patmos, but he said I was in Spirit on the Lord's Day which means that the Spirit transported him to the end of this age, because he heard a voice behind me, a great voice as of a trumpet. Now when it says behind me, it means that the things that he saw had already taken place. They were behind him and he had to turn around in order to see them."


The quote reads like a desperate attempt to complicate the context more than it has to be, just so it can fit it in some eschatology that also makes no sense. Sorry about the negativity, but you have to admit it is very over the top, speculatively speaking.

The reality is that John was under the influence of God’s Spirit on some particular day he called the Lord’s day, . . .


Would it agree more with your thought of the Lord's Day" being called the first day of the week? Yeah, on the first day of the week I was called up to heaven in Rev 4:1 to be shown Jesus receiving His own throne in Rev 4:2, the 24 elders of the church gathered round about His throne clothed in white rainment with crowns on their heads (Rev 4:4), the four beasts in the midst of Jesus' throne in Rev 4:6, and in Rev 4:8  And the four beasts . . . rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

That sort of fits the context of write that thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter we read of in Rev1:14?

Offline soterion

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Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ
« Reply #54 on: Sat Apr 14, 2018 - 17:08:06 »
Would it agree more with your thought of the Lord's Day" being called the first day of the week? Yeah, on the first day of the week I was called up to heaven in Rev 4:1 to be shown Jesus receiving His own throne in Rev 4:2, the 24 elders of the church gathered round about His throne clothed in white rainment with crowns on their heads (Rev 4:4), the four beasts in the midst of Jesus' throne in Rev 4:6, and in Rev 4:8  And the four beasts . . . rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

That sort of fits the context of write that thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter we read of in Rev1:14?


Three points.

First, you don't know that Rev 4:1 was on the same day as Rev 1:10. That's just further speculation on your part.

Second, is it possible that John was told on a first day of the week to write those things? Yeah, I would have to say that it is possible. In fact, Jesus conquered death on a first day of the week and (possibly on a first day of the week) John was told to write the book of Rev, to show the churches Jesus will conquer their enemy. Of course, I'm not being dogmatic about it; just that I have been shown no better option for what the Lord's day is in Rev 1:10.

Third, you still haven't identified the Lamb who takes the scroll from the hand of the One who sits on the throne in Rev chapters 4 and 5. Read those two chapters and then tell me who it is.

Offline larry2

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Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ
« Reply #55 on: Sat Apr 14, 2018 - 17:35:57 »

Three points.

First, you don't know that Rev 4:1 was on the same day as Rev 1:10. That's just further speculation on your part.

Second, is it possible that John was told on a first day of the week to write those things? Yeah, I would have to say that it is possible. In fact, Jesus conquered death on a first day of the week and (possibly on a first day of the week) John was told to write the book of Rev, to show the churches Jesus will conquer their enemy. Of course, I'm not being dogmatic about it; just that I have been shown no better option for what the Lord's day is in Rev 1:10.

That's fine with me, although I reckon we just won't agree.


Third, you still haven't identified the Lamb who takes the scroll from the hand of the One who sits on the throne in Rev chapters 4 and 5. Read those two chapters and then tell me who it is.

I can see no one worthy other than the Lamb of God Jesus; our Lord.

Offline soterion

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Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ
« Reply #56 on: Sat Apr 14, 2018 - 18:37:13 »
I can see no one worthy other than the Lamb of God Jesus; our Lord.

Okay, great.  ::smile::

Since the Lamb is Jesus, then do you still contend repeatedly that the One on the throne is Jesus?

You keep posting that in Rev 4:2 is where Jesus begins sitting on His throne. However, in 5:5-6, the Lamb, Jesus, takes the scroll from the One who is sitting on the throne. Either the One on the throne is God the Father, or Jesus is taking the scroll out of His own hand, kinda like Jesus is on the throne and not on the throne at the same time.

 ::pondering::

Offline larry2

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Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ
« Reply #57 on: Sat Apr 14, 2018 - 21:27:48 »

Since the Lamb is Jesus, then do you still contend repeatedly that the One on the throne is Jesus?

Yes I do. In Rev 4:4 the 24 elders are round about the throne of Rev 4:2. The 4 beasts are round about, and in the midst of the throne in Rev 4:6, and then we read in Rev 5:6, And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. (Is this the same Jesus that was on a throne in Rev 4:2?)


You keep posting that in Rev 4:2 is where Jesus begins sitting on His throne. However, in 5:5-6, the Lamb, Jesus, takes the scroll from the One who is sitting on the throne. Either the One on the throne is God the Father, or Jesus is taking the scroll out of His own hand, kinda like Jesus is on the throne and not on the throne at the same time.

 ::pondering::

Does our Father have a throne? Does Jesus now, or will He have a throne?

Jesus does say this in Rev 1:8,  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Notice Rev 3:21 and two different thrones mentioned. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Where and when did Jesus get this throne?)

Rev 5:1  And I saw in the right hand of Him (Who is this?) that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

Revelation 5:5. "And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof." ( Who is this? Jesus?)
Revelation 5:6. "And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain. (Who is this? Jesus of Rev 4:2? Was Jesus made strong in weakness? - A lion became a Lamb?)

What gave Jesus the power to sit on the throne? Dying on the cross as the lamb slain from the foundation of the world? Will He now reign as King of kings, and Lords?
Rev 5:9  And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain . . . 

And I'll say thanks now, as you're asking me things I haven't studied in a very long time.



Offline soterion

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Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ
« Reply #58 on: Sat Apr 14, 2018 - 21:57:35 »
Yes I do. In Rev 4:4 the 24 elders are round about the throne of Rev 4:2. The 4 beasts are round about, and in the midst of the throne in Rev 4:6, and then we read in Rev 5:6, And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. (Is this the same Jesus that was on a throne in Rev 4:2?)

Does our Father have a throne? Does Jesus now, or will He have a throne?

Jesus does say this in Rev 1:8,  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Notice Rev 3:21 and two different thrones mentioned. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Where and when did Jesus get this throne?)

Rev 5:1  And I saw in the right hand of Him (Who is this?) that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

Revelation 5:5. "And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof." ( Who is this? Jesus?)
Revelation 5:6. "And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain. (Who is this? Jesus of Rev 4:2? Was Jesus made strong in weakness? - A lion became a Lamb?)

What gave Jesus the power to sit on the throne? Dying on the cross as the lamb slain from the foundation of the world? Will He now reign as King of kings, and Lords?
Rev 5:9  And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain . . . 

And I'll say thanks now, as you're asking me things I haven't studied in a very long time.


Well, you have Jesus taking the scroll from Himself in Rev 5:5-7. ::headscratch::

I don't want to keep posting about this, as I am sure it will get a bit tiring hearing the same things over and over, but just consider one more point one more time. The One who is sitting on the throne in 4:2 is the same One sitting on the throne in 5:1 and 5:7. In 5:7, Jesus, the Lamb, takes the scroll out of the hand of Him who sits on the throne, the same One on the same throne in 4:2. I do not believe John is describing Jesus as the Lamb taking the scroll out of the hand of Jesus as the King.

The One on the throne throughout that narrative (4:1-5:14) is the Father.

Offline larry2

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Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ
« Reply #59 on: Sat Apr 14, 2018 - 22:19:56 »

Well, you have Jesus taking the scroll from Himself in Rev 5:5-7. ::headscratch::

I don't want to keep posting about this, as I am sure it will get a bit tiring hearing the same things over and over

The One on the throne throughout that narrative (4:1-5:14) is the Father.


OK, I'll try to not bore you further.   ::tippinghat::

Offline soterion

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Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ
« Reply #60 on: Sat Apr 14, 2018 - 22:23:49 »
OK, I'll try to not bore you further.   ::tippinghat::

I'm not bored. I just don't want you to get frustrated with me about this. ::noworries::

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Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ
« Reply #61 on: Sat Apr 14, 2018 - 23:30:15 »
I'm not bored. I just don't want you to get frustrated with me about this. ::noworries::

I've got the time to listen. Please give me your narritive of Revelation using scripture.

Offline soterion

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Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ
« Reply #62 on: Sun Apr 15, 2018 - 00:14:20 »
I've got the time to listen. Please give me your narritive of Revelation using scripture.

Of course I'm not going to go there. As if I want to open that can of worms.  ::juggle::

I have already shared what I believe to be the occasion of the book, so that will suffice for here and now. No doubt we will discuss more as time goes on. ::smile::

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Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ
« Reply #63 on: Sun Apr 15, 2018 - 07:04:21 »
I...... narrative of Revelation using scripture.
I don't understand.  What is that?  What is a narrative of Revelation  -- whether or not using Scripture?  What exactly are you looking for?

Offline larry2

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Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ
« Reply #64 on: Sun Apr 15, 2018 - 11:04:18 »
I don't understand.  What is that?  What is a narrative of Revelation  -- whether or not using Scripture?  What exactly are you looking for?

Good morning. We disagree who Jesus is in scripture as pertaining to Rev 4:2, and what the Lord's Day is that John was at when He received the Revelation of Jesus Christ. The point being is the three viewpoints shown John from that point in time. Was John show things from somewhere around 95 AD, or when Jesus begins His rule in heaven some 2000 + years?

Presently my understanding is that the Judgment Seat of Christ is ongoing of the Church that we read of in Revelation Chapters Two & Three. When is that over, and Jesus takes the rulership He has been given? (Mt 28:18). It's rather certain we do not see all authority and power (1 Cor 15:24) put down of usurping nations at this time.

Does Jesus receive a throne, and when is it? We read in Act_7:49  Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool. Is that the context of being King of kings, and Lord of lords?

Offline Amo

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Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ
« Reply #65 on: Sun Apr 15, 2018 - 12:15:38 »
Hi AMO, would you consider that we who are caught up to be with the Lord in our respective orders, have already received our reward when we see Him, and any judgment was afforded us prior to that?

For instance, a sin unto death is certainly judgment; Moses experienced that on Mount Nebo (Deut 32:50), but we see him with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration. (Mar 9:4) Thanks.


Again, the future judgement as in examination of evidence is for creations sake, not God's. He of course knows where everyone stands at all times. As far as being caught up to the Lord, I believe Paul's testimony concerning the timing of such. Enoch, Elijah, Moses, and whoever the saints who were raised at Christ's crucifixion were, are scriptural examples of those miraculously caught up before the time which Paul allocates to the rest of us.

1 These 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Gen 5:21 And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah: 22 And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: 23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: 24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

2 Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. 12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Mt 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.



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Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ
« Reply #66 on: Sun Apr 15, 2018 - 15:35:29 »
Presently my understanding is that the Judgment Seat of Christ is ongoing of the Church that we read of in Revelation Chapters Two & Three.
The Judgment Seat of Christ [Greek  --  Bema] is a judgment by Jesus Christ upon his return of each of us individually for the things done whether good or bad.  It is not a judgment concerning entrance to heaven or hell. That in fact is not a judgment at all, rather that is a decision, a selection that is made by each of us ourselves by obeying or not the gospel.

Offline larry2

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Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ
« Reply #67 on: Sun Apr 15, 2018 - 17:25:22 »
The Judgment Seat of Christ [Greek  --  Bema] is a judgment by Jesus Christ upon his return of each of us individually for the things done whether good or bad.  It is not a judgment concerning entrance to heaven or hell. That in fact is not a judgment at all, rather that is a decision, a selection that is made by each of us ourselves by obeying or not the gospel.

I agree on the judgment seat not concerning our eternal life, but what do you think of the judgment against the church in Thyatira? Rev 2:22  Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

Judgment here for believers does not extend to our standing in Christ, but consequence here, and loss of reward we could have for eternity if I stating it correctly.


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Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ
« Reply #68 on: Sun Apr 15, 2018 - 18:16:27 »
I agree on the judgment seat not concerning our eternal life, but what do you think of the judgment against the church in Thyatira? Rev 2:22  Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

Judgment here for believers does not extend to our standing in Christ, but consequence here, and loss of reward we could have for eternity if I stating it correctly.


Why do you change subjects every time someone answers you?

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Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ
« Reply #69 on: Sun Apr 15, 2018 - 18:19:46 »
Here are Scriptures that show that the Apostolic church was living in the final days of crisis before the Resurrection of the dead and the Judgment:

    "...'There is about to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.' ...And as he was discussing righteousness, self-control and the judgment which is about to come...." (Acts. 24:15, 25; Jn. 5:28-29)

    "...He has fixed a Day in which He is about to judge the world..." (Acts 17:31)

    "...Christ Jesus, Who is about to judge the living and the dead." (II Tim. 4:1)

    "...The Judge is standing right at the door." (Jms. 5:9)

    "...They shall give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead." (I Peter 4:5)

    "...but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which is about to consume the enemies. (Lk. 19:27)

Revelation 11:1-18 reveals that God judged the living and the dead, the just and the unjust, at the fall of Jerusalem. After Jerusalem was trodden under foot for 3 1/2 years, (Rev. 11:2) a tenth of the City fell in an earthquake (Rev. 11:13) and seven thousand men were killed. (Rev. 11:13) Then "quickly" afterward, (Rev. 11:14) "the kingdom of this world" became the eternal Kingdom of the Father and the Son. (Rev. 11:15)

"The kingdom of this world" was the kingdom of the Pharisees and chief priests. (Amos 9:8; Matt. 8:12; Heb. 9:1) The Church became the eternal Kingdom of the Father and the Son (Compare Jn. 14:23; Rev. 22:3) when the unredeemed sons of the kingdom were cast out in 70 (Matt. 8:12):

"Therefore I say to you [chief priests, Pharisees and elders], the kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and be given to a nation producing the fruit of it." (Matt. 21:43)

"Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom." (Lk. 12:32)

 

     
anything