GCM Home | Your Posts | Rules | DONATE | Bookstore | Facebook | Twitter | FAQs


Author Topic: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?  (Read 1822 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2001
  • Manna: 9
Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #35 on: Sun Oct 07, 2018 - 15:33:09 »
Quote
Quote from: Michael Reply #32 on: Yesterday at 19:43:16
The Law of Moses was not given and is not given, to Christians who have Christ, but to the Jew
In what sense are you using the The Law of Moses?  The entire system of legislation, judicial and ceremonial, etc. and the Ten Commandments? Then we must disagree. The Ten Commandments is the SUM OF ALL of God's commandments summed up in ten of them~and ALL of God's commandments (both OT and NT are summed up into TWO of them....

RB, I refer to the Law that was given to the Israelites through Moses. All that was given to them.

May I ask, in your understanding, what does scriptures say, is/are the purpose/s of the Law, that it was given? And to whom does scriptures say it was given?

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #35 on: Sun Oct 07, 2018 - 15:33:09 »

Offline NorrinRadd

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1409
  • Manna: 49
  • Gender: Male
  • Everybody is somebody's heretic
Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #36 on: Sun Oct 07, 2018 - 19:51:54 »
I will say you are in the majority.

Maybe.  But I never heard that kind of stuff in the circles I fellowshipped in.  Most of the churches I attended since being born again in 1980 were descended from the "holiness" tradition.  It was only a very few times that I actually heard the expression, "Saved by grace, kept by works," but that did seem a decent summary of the outlook.

They found ways to replace the Old Law with what amounted to their own new laws:

No smoking

No drinking

No social dancing

Don't watch the "wrong" kinds of movies (which for some even included "Superman" and "Star Wars")

Read your Bible an hour a day

Be in church every Sunday *at least*

Dress your best for the Lord

Probably a few more that I'm forgetting.  And those were in addition to the law-like instructions we actually do find in the NT.

Quote
But then look at the consequences of everything around you because most believe  this.

Something is wrong... but you are right also when you say .......

Each of us finds certain Scriptures "clear," "definitive," "convincing," etc.

That, I suspect was by divine design. ::tippinghat::

It does sort of seem that way -- which frankly pushes me to doubt the goodness of God.

It bothers me that so many are so committed to "inerrancy" or "infallibility" that they refuse to acknowledge the clear tensions in Scripture.  I've cited some of the many passages I find clear, convincing, and definitive in support of my view.  It would not take much effort to come up with at least as many additional ones.  But I'm also well aware there are many NT passages that give a contrary view.  While you claim that my view is the "majority" view, my own perception is that the majority only pay lip service to grace.  In actual practice, they emphasize the various "clobber" passages -- especially ones that target temptations that affect other people and not themselves -- as well as their own "holiness" standards.  They seem (to me) to be all about appearances:  We are to behave in certain ways specifically for the purpose of making infidels say, "Hmm, those people are weird.  Must be Christians."

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #36 on: Sun Oct 07, 2018 - 19:51:54 »

Online RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5368
  • Manna: 304
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #37 on: Mon Oct 08, 2018 - 05:25:54 »
RB, I refer to the Law that was given to the Israelites through Moses. All that was given to them.

May I ask, in your understanding, what does scriptures say, is/are the purpose/s of the Law, that it was given? And to whom does scriptures say it was given?

Michael is a very large sense, the law was given to Israel.
Quote from: Paul
Romans 9:3,5~"For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
But, that NOT to say that the law in a restricted sense which are summed up in the Ten Commandments were NOT written on Adam's and Eve's heart at creation per Romans 2 as I said above. Now, it is ALSO true that Israel had hundreds of more legislation, judicial and ceremonial and Dietary laws that were ONLY given to them UNTIL the time of reformation when they were FOREVER abolished, never to be enforced again.
Quote from: Michael on: Yesterday at 15:33:09
what does scriptures say, is/are the purpose/s of the Law, that it was given?
Brother, it would be wise to separate the law of God contained in the Ten Commandments, which laws can be summed up in two commandments... Love to God and love for our neighbors~and the "legislation, judicial and ceremonial and dietary laws", of which most pointed to how Israel was to be SEPARATE from other nations as far as how they live their life, which laws where only to be temporary proven by Acts 10 and Acts 15.

Now the law of God contained in the Ten Commandments served other purposes, which I must come back and consider, for I have meetings that I must attend. 
« Last Edit: Mon Oct 08, 2018 - 05:41:06 by RB »

Online RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5368
  • Manna: 304
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #38 on: Thu Oct 11, 2018 - 04:10:41 »
I want to add more to Reply #37 on: Mon Oct 08, 2018 - 05:25:54 since I left it somewhat unanswered.
Quote from: Paul
1st Timothy 1:5-8~"Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;"
Desiring to be teachers is a good thing, but we first MUST learn how to use the law of God lawfully, which I know by experience and reading behind many, many different people over the years, that few have mastered how to use God's law in a lawful manner, even righteous men and women, and because of that, many false doctrines abound and men give themselves over to nothing more than vain jangling.

There are some errors that we should guard ourselves against concerning The  Old Testament  and The New Testament.1First~ There is danger when the Law is set against Grace. No scheme of prophetic interpretation can be safe which is obliged to represent the dispensations of Law and Grace, each excluding the other and contrary to it. If this were the case, it would mean that God had taken opposing and contradictory attitudes towards men in these two different ages.

So far from being opposing systems, law and grace as revealed in Scripture are parts of one harmonious and progressive plan. The present dispensation is spoken of as the age of grace, not because grace belongs to it exclusively, but because in it grace has been fully manifested. Noag found GRACE in the eyes of the LORD just as you and I have, NO DIFFERENCE.  When John declared that ‘the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ’, he was contrasting law and grace, not as two contrary and irreconcilable systems, but as two related parts of one system. The law was the shadow, Christ was the substance. The law was the pattern, Christ was the reality. The grace which had been behind the law came to light through Jesus Christ so that it could be realized. As a matter of fact, grace had been in operation from the beginning. It began in Eden with the first promise of redemption immediately after the fall. All redemption is of grace; let us make NO MISTAKE about that truth~there can be no salvation without it, and even the law itself proceeds on the basis of grace. Proven by many scriptures, as Paul proved in Galatians 3.

The law was given to Israel not that they might be redeemed, but because they had been redeemed. The nation had been brought out of Egypt by the power of God under the blood of the slain lamb, itself the symbol and token of the LORD'S grace. The law was added at Sinai as the necessary standard of life for a ransomed people, a people who now belonged to the Lord. It began with a declaration of their redemption;
Quote from: Moses
Exdous 20:2~"I am the Lord thy God who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage"
It rested on the basis of grace, and it embodied the principle that redemption implied a conformity to God’s moral order. In other words, the very grace that redeemed Israel carried with it the necessity of revealing the law to Israel~which any rational person should understand. Redemption has always been by grace, proven by OBEDIENCE to God's word...NOT in order to be redeemed, but BECUASE they WERE redeemed. The law was given that they might walk worthy of the relation in which they now stood to God, worthy of a salvation which was already theirs. The covenant of the law did not supersede the covenant of promise, but set forth the kind of life which those who were redeemed by the covenant of promise were expected to live.

The law was not a covenant of works in the sense that Israel’s salvation depended upon obedience to it. Which many immediately begun to teach and continue to do so even until now. The devout Israelite was saved by the promise of God made known to Abraham in Genesis 12:1-3, and revealed even more so by his son Isaac being born according to God's promise to him. Abraham's seed looked forward through the sacrifices to a salvation which they foreshadowed, and by faith accepted it, as we look back to the Cross and by faith believe the salvation which has been accomplished. The Old Testament saints and the New Testament saints are both saved in the same way, and that is, by the grace of God through the obedience of Jesus Christ alone.

Of course the people did not keep the law. It only brought sin to light and proved that righteousness could not come that way, as Paul points out in the Epistle of Galatians. The Law made all the more evident that there was a need for the faith and obedience of Jesus Christ. But Christ came not to put the law aside and introduce another plan. "I came not to destroy", He declared, but to fulfill; not to dissolve the obligations of the law and release us from them, but to substantiate the law and make good all that the law of God required. In the Sermon on the Mount He expounded and expanded the law, in all its depth and breadth, and in all its searching sweep. This Sermon He spoke to His disciples; it was His law for them. It was not intended for another age and another people; it set forth the kind of life He expected His own people to live in the present age.

Of course we cannot fulfill the law of the Sermon on the Mount as an outward standard of life. Our Lord did not leave it at that. He was Himself going to make it possible for His disciples to fulfill it, but He could not yet tell them how. When He died and rose again and ascended into heaven, and His Holy Spirit~the same Spirit which had fulfilled and exemplified that law completely in His own life~came flowing back into the lives of His disciples, they would fulfill the righteousness of the law, even though FAR from perfection, for Christ did that FOR THEM. The law was written on their hearts. Their lives were conformed to the law, not by slavish obedience to an outward standard, but by the free constraint of an inward spirit. The righteousness of the law was fulfilled in them when they walk not after the flesh but after the spirit.

It is this very feature of grace which seems to make it an entirely different and separate system from the law, for it did not exist in the Old Testament dispensation. It could not be realized before the redemptive work of Christ was done and the Holy Spirit came. The Israelites occupied a different position toward the law from that occupied by the Christian now. The law demanded an obedience which the natural heart could not give. In its practical working, therefore, the law necessarily came to stand over man as a creditor, with claims of justice which had not been satisfied. These claims Christ fulfilled perfectly and put out of the way, as far as the law having any claims upon them for their shortcomings. . More than that, by virtue of our union with Him in His death and resurrection, He has brought us out of the sphere where the law as an outward authority demands obedience of the natural man, into the sphere where the law is written upon the heart by the power of the Holy Spirit. He has created us "a new man" whose nature it is to fulfill the righteousness of the law by an inward power and principle of tehe new man This is what Paul meant when he said,
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 2:19~ "I through the law died unto the law that I might live unto God"
When PAul wrote to the Romans,
Quote from: Paul
Romans 6:14~Sin shall not have dominion over you, for ye are not under law but under grace’"
Not under as a means of entering into life, only under the law as a perfect rule of righteousness to live by.

This new revelation to the law has been created by the grace of God through the work of Jesus Christ. But the law still remains. It is the reflex of His own character and the revelation of His moral order. He cannot set it aside, for then He would deny Himself. The wonder and glory of grace consists in this, that it came in, not to oppose the law and substitute another plan, but to meet and satisfy all its claims and provide a way of fulfilling all its obligations. It has pleased the Lord by His grace to magnify the law and make it honorable.

I need some more posts to finish what I desire to say~so let me come back and post a few more posts so that we can fully answer some questions that some have.


Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #38 on: Thu Oct 11, 2018 - 04:10:41 »

Online RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5368
  • Manna: 304
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #39 on: Thu Oct 11, 2018 - 05:22:00 »
RB, I refer to the Law that was given to the Israelites through Moses. All that was given to them.

May I ask, in your understanding, what does scriptures say, is/are the purpose/s of the Law, that it was given? And to whom does scriptures say it was given?
Michael, I know that it is taught by some whom we respect, that the law was only given to Israel, but we are obliged to differ, that the Law was given to the nation of Israel and to none else, and therefore, that neither Gentiles nor Christians are under any obligation to keep it. That the Law was formally given to Israel at Sinai is freely granted by us. But does that prove it was meant for none other than the descendants of Jacob? The scriptures will not support that teaching.  When writing to the saints at Rome (many of whom were Gentiles, see 1:13; 11:13; 15:15, 16, etc.) Paul said,
Quote from: Paul
Romans 7:6~"But now we are delivered from the Law"
Again... Paul declares,
Quote from: Paul
Romans 8:7~"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can be"
Mark, it is not "the Jewish mind", but the "carnal mind" in Jew and Gentile alike. Now, there would be no point to this statement if the mind of man, as man, is not obligated to be in subjection to the Law of God. Man’s mind is not subject, and because of its innate depravity "cannot be"; nevertheless, it ought to be. Once more: note how in Ephesians 2:2 the wicked are said to be "children of disobedience": this is meaningless if they are not under obligation to obey the commandments of God. These scriptures, then, are sufficient to establish the fact that Gentiles, as well as Jews, are "under the Law". Remember I said above that when God created Adam and Eve he put his laws in their hearts and wrote them there spiritually speaking.

Returning now to Romans 2:12, 13. The simple meaning of these verses is that, the Gentiles never had given to them the two tables of stone on which the Ten Commandments were inscribed, nor were they in possession of the Scriptures, wherein those Commandments were recorded. But it should be carefully noted that Romans 2:5 goes on to state these very Gentiles "show the work of the Law written on their hearts". On these scriptures, it is plain that Gentiles have what is tantamount to the moral Law. The fact that the Gentiles are "a law unto themselves" shows that God gave them the equivalent of what He gave the Jews, namely, a standard of right and wrong. In the case of the former, it was "written in their hearts", in the case of the latter, it was written on tables of stone, and afterwards in the Scriptures. From this it is clear that the moral Law given to Israel by Moses was but a transcript, or compendium, of the Law which God, in the creation, had stamped upon the moral nature of man. . . . The moral Law, therefore, was not altogether new in the time of the exodus; nor was it something exclusively for Israel, but was a gift for the whole race, and therefore, must be of perpetual validity.
Quote from: Paul
Romans 6:14"For ye are not under the Law, but under grace"
This is the favorite verse with those who take the position that the Law has no relation to believers of this dispensation. "Not under the Law" is explicit, and seems final. What, then, have we to say concerning it? This: that like every other verse in the Bible, it must not be divorced from its context, but is to be studied and faithfully interpreted in the light of its context. What, then, is the context about? First, what is the remote context concerned with? Second, what is the theme of the immediate context? By the remote context we mean, the Epistle as a whole. This is always the first thing to be weighed in connection with the exposition of any passage. Failure here is responsible for the great majority of misinterpretations and erroneous applications of Scripture. It should be carefully noted that the words "Ye are not under the Law" but "under grace" are found not in Hebrews, but in Romans. This, of itself, should warn us that "not under Law" needs to be understood in a modified sense. If it were true that the Law has been abrogated, then the Epistle to the Hebrews would be the one place of all others where we should expect to find this taught. The theme of Hebrews is, The superiority of Christianity over Judaism (This theme is developed by showing the superiority of Christ~the Center and Life of Christian it~over angels, Adam, Moses, Joshua, Aaron, and the whole Levitical economy). In the expansion of this theme the apostle, again and again, shows how the prominent things in Judaism are not obsolete~see chapter 7 for the changing of the priesthood, from the Aaronic to the Melchizedek order; chapters 8 and 9 for the substitution of the new covenant for the old, etc. And yet, not a word is said in it that the Law is now supplanted by grace.

"Not under the Law, but under grace" is found in Romans, the great theme of which is, the gospel reveals the righteousness of God:  how this righteous is imparted and the system under which we come to have a knowledge of God's righteousness AND the effect it should have on our conduct. The prominent feature of the first eight chapters of Romans is that they treat of the judicial side of Gospel-truth, rather than with the experimental and practical. Romans 3 through 5, especially, treat of justification and its consequences. In the light of this fact it is not difficult to discover the meaning of 6:14. "Ye are not under Law, but under grace" signifies, Ye are under a system of gratuitous justification. "The whole previous argument explains this sentence. He refers to our acceptance. He goes back to the justification of the guilty, ‘without the deeds of the Law’, the act of free grace; and briefly restates it thus, that he may take up afresh the position that this glorious liberation means not a license to live as one desires to live, but that we must yields our members a servants of righteousness...for whoever one yeilds their members to, that is to whom they belong to.

"Ye are not under the Law but under grace". The contrast is not between the Law of Moses and the Gospel of Christ, as two economies or dispensations, rather is it a contrast between Law and grace as the principles of two methods of justification, the one false, the other true; the one of human devising, the other of Divine provision. "Law" and "grace" here are parallel with "the Law of works" and "the Law of faith" in 3:27! Romans 6:14 was just as true of the Old Testament saints as of New Testament believers. Caleb, Joshua, David, Elijah, Daniel were no more "under Law" in the sense that these words are used in Romans 6:14, than Christians are today. Instead, they were "under grace" in the matter of their justification, just as truly as we are.

"‘Not under the Law’ does not mean, Not under obligation to obey the precepts of the moral Law; but signifies, Not keeping the Law in order to be free from condemantion. The apostle asserts in this verse that Christians are not under the Law, as an actual, effectual adequate means of justification, and if they are so, their case is utterly hopeless and Christ died in vain; based on Galatinas 2:20, and other scriptures. That this is all that he means is apparent from the sequel of his remarks (6:15—8:39). What can be plainer, than that the moral Law as ‘precept’ is altogether approved and recognized by him. See chapter 7:12-14. Nay, so far is the apostle from pleading for oblivion or repeal of moral precepts, that he asserts directly (8:3, 4) that the Gospel is designed to secure obedience to these moral precepts; which the Law was unable to do. It is, then, from the Law viewed in this sense, and this only, namely, as inadequate to effect the justification and secure the obedience of sinners, that the apostle declares us to be free.

The force of Rom. 6:14 becomes more apparent if we observe what follows it. In the very next verse we read, "What then? Shall we sin, because we are not under the Law, but under grace? God forbid". This anticipates an objection: If we are not under the Law as the ground of our justification, then are we to be lawless? The inspired answer is, God forbid. Nothing is more self-evidently certain then, that if the moral Law is not a rule of life to believers, they are at liberty to disregard its precepts. But the apostle rejects this error with the utmost abhorrence. We quote here a part of Calvin’s comments on Rom. 6:15: "But we are much deceived if we think, that the righteousness which God approves of in His Law is abolished, when the Law is abrogated; for the abrogation is by no means to be applied to the precepts which teach the right way of living, as Christ confirms and sanctions these, and does not abrogate them; but the right view is, that nothing is taken away but the curse, to which men without grace are subject". (Red highlight is mine.) Did you noticed what Calvin added:
Quote from: John Calvin
to which men without grace are subject
All men outside of Jesus Christ are under the law in a sense in which believers are not under the law, and we should add, the ONLY means that they have of entering into life is BY THE LAW, which as we know is impossible!

In what follows, to the end of this chapter and chapter seven, the apostle shows that though the believer is "not under Law" as the ground of his justification, nevertheless, he is under the Law as a rule of his Christian life, that is, he is under obligations to obey its moral precepts. In v. 18 (which contains the positive answer to the question asked in v. 15) the apostle declares, "being then made free from sin, ye became the servants (bond-slaves) of righteousness". Again in v. 22 he says, "But now being made free from sin, and become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness". Observe carefully, it is not here said "servants of Christ", nor "servants of the Father", which would bring in quite another thought, but "servants of God", which enforces the believer’s responsibility to the Law-giver. That this is the meaning of Rom. 6:18 and 22 is clear from 7:25, where the apostle says, "So then with the mind I myself serve THE LAW OF GOD".

Much more to come....RB
« Last Edit: Thu Oct 11, 2018 - 11:22:09 by RB »

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #39 on: Thu Oct 11, 2018 - 05:22:00 »



Online RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5368
  • Manna: 304
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #40 on: Thu Oct 11, 2018 - 07:56:34 »
Where do you think God was when He blessed and sanctified the seventh day? Do you think He was with Adam and Eve on the world He just created? Or do you think he left the world to pronounce a blessed and sanctified day for that world? Do you think He established such in the presence of Adam and Eve and no doubt many other witnesses, and then intended they ignore that which He established? Or do you think Adam and Eve rested with God on the day He just blessed and sanctified? Why would you presume to separate from creation and the created, that which was most obviously established for and to be part of them and the world they were given? Is it not simply because you wish to deny the same in accordance with a belief which will not allow for it? Do you think Jesus Christ who is God and created the seventh day Sabbath, was wrong when He said the following?
Amo, I do not think outside of the scriptures, as you MUST do to believe as you do. The word of God does not say that God said ANYTHING to anyone concerning blessing the seventh day, as he did when he said let us make us make man in our own image, after our likeness~he just bless the day, to set an example that we should rest one out of seven days, NOT that he needed rest, but for us, which I did mention above in one of my first posts.
Quote from: Amo Reply #34 on: Sun Oct 07, 2018 - 14:24:54
Where do you think God was
Well he cannot be contained in a certain location since God DWELLS IN ETERNITY, he did NOT need to be present when he created man~besides HE CANNOT be in a certain location and not be in another at the same time....he FILLS heaven and earth!
Quote from: Amo Reply #34 on: Sun Oct 07, 2018 - 14:24:54
Do you think He was with Adam and Eve on the world He just created?
God is a Spirit and is OMNIPRESENT.
Quote from: Amo Reply #34 on: Sun Oct 07, 2018 - 14:24:54
Or do you think he left the world to pronounce a blessed and sanctified day for that world?
He said it in his heart, which is what the scriptures guide us to understand. He could very easily have said to Adam and Eve what he thought in his heart concerning the seventh day, but we have NO record that he did, now do we? Besides the curse of the ground MADE a day of rest much more important than BEFORE the fall of man, agree? I think so based on Genesis 3:17 IN SORROW shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life!
Quote from: Amo Reply #34 on: Sun Oct 07, 2018 - 14:24:54
Do you think He established such in the presence of Adam and Eve and no doubt many other witnesses, and then intended they ignore that which He established?
We have no record of that in Genesis 2-3,~so I refuse to think outside of the scriptures and you would do well to practice the same, for it has gotten you holding to a lie by doing so.
Quote from: Amo Reply #34 on: Sun Oct 07, 2018 - 14:24:54
Mk 2:24 And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful? 25 And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him? 26 How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him? 27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: 28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

We don’t have to presume anything. The Lord of the Sabbath has told us that the Sabbath was made for man, and it was made at creation. It was made for man at creation before there ever was sin, or an Israel or any need at all for a specific and special people of God in this world. Yet here you are demanding that, that which was made for man by God as a blessing to us immediately after our creation, was not revealed to us or observed by us until thousands of years after it was established by God. Why would you presume such?
I must move faster, or I'll be here forever answering your long post, which is okay, but must run some of your thoughts together for sake of time. No, we do not have presume anything, for when God gave the Sabbath NOT at creation but to Israel it was indeed given for man's benefit, YET you folks want to make a golden calf out of the Sabbath and try to convince NT believers that MAN was made FOR the Sabbath as part of his worship to please God! Even the very scripture you quoted shows us how MAN used the Sabbath to serve his NEEDS and was GUILTLESS before God for doing so!
Quote from: Jesus
Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred......
You never answered my questions to you about using the hospitals on SATURDAY if your wife was dying~I would EXPECT you to do so, if you were a righteous person and loved your wife and had NEED of the hospital's service and those good people WORKING AND SERVING YOU ON SATURDAY.

I'm coming back later today and to finish your long post. RB
« Last Edit: Thu Oct 11, 2018 - 08:01:24 by RB »

Online RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5368
  • Manna: 304
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #41 on: Thu Oct 11, 2018 - 12:51:02 »
I want to continue answering Amo, the SDA post here: Reply #34 on: Sun Oct 07, 2018 - 14:24:54
Quote from: Amo  Reply #34 on: Sun Oct 07, 2018 - 14:24:54
The Sabbath commandment begins with the word remember. Why would God ask humanity to remember to observe a special day they never knew about or observed before? Why would anyone presume He did, unless there intention was for it to be so in accordance with something other than God’s word.
And where to you find that commandment? In Exodus given to Israel for the first time!
Quote from: Moses
Exdous 20:8--11~Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."
This is the first time we read where God blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it. It is the second time we read of not working on the seventh day....
Quote from: Moses
Exdous 16:22-26And it came to pass, that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for one man: and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses. And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning. And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein. And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field. Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none.
So when God officially gave Israel the Ten Commandment, he had JUST given them the law of the seventh day being a rest for them and ALL they had, including their animals as we read later on.  So, telling them to remember ONLY goes back to when they began gathering manna, and up until then, we have NO Record of them remembering the seventh day, if so...WHERE? You desire to take it all the way back to Adam and we have no record of that. EVEN IF WE DID, NO ONE today keeps the Jewish Sabbath of the OT in its rigor, slavish form as Isreal of old; certainly did not Jesus or the apostles, and we even less including YOU sir.
Quote from: Amo  Reply #34 on: Sun Oct 07, 2018 - 14:24:54
Apart from the Sabbath, none of the particulars of the other nine commandments are addressed at all in the book of Genesis. Yet we know from the book of Genesis, that Abraham kept the commandments of God.

Gen 26:3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father; 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

What commandments, statutes, and laws of God do you think Abraham kept? Why would you presume that the only commandment specifically referenced or addressed in the book of Genesis, would specifically be one that was not kept or observed by God’s chosen of the time covered in the book? One of whom the book states, obeyed God’s voice, kept His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His laws. Is it not because you do not wish it to be so? Perhaps not. Though we may judge what people do, ours is not to judge why.
I'm glad you said APART from the Sabbath, for we have NO record that Abraham ever kept it as his children after him were commanded. Sir, ALL of the commandments can be sum up into two of them Love to God and love to our neghbours~now do I really need to waste time proving to you that Abraham loved God and his neighbors? No, I do not it is so obvious that he did. Look how he treated Lot, and all that he had any dealings with~and not to mention that he was a friend of God, and no one is God's friend without loving and serving him ACCORDING TO THE LIGHT that one possesses. Again, when one is born of God they have a new man which after God is created in TRUE HOLINESS and holiness they will serve~the new man has the knowledge, and understanding, (spiritually) that Adam has BEFORE the fall.
Quote
So also today, those who would be His, should observe the day He blessed and sanctified for all.
I use one out of seven days to rest and refresh myself and set that day aside for mediations and spiritual worship as much as possible, NOT in order to secure eternal life, but because of the EXAMPLE that God set for us in the beginning. ONE out of any seven days! For those who work in our medical fields, that day would be different than mine; those who are public servants ....policemen and women that day would rotate for many of them, yet they should PRACTICE resting their body and refueling themselves one out of seven days. I whole heartily believe in that example that God has set forth for us. We just do not make a golden calf out of a JEWISH DAY that has typical meaning attached to it. A meaning that you WORK so hard to destroy~In CHRIST NT believers CEASE from their own works and LOOK to Christ for our eternal rest in the world to come.... I'm finished with you, for now~I've said enough to prove my point.  Amo, I believe you have a zeal of God BUT, not according to knowledge. You are following a woman that was in love with Moses more than Christ! Selah.
« Last Edit: Thu Oct 11, 2018 - 13:00:06 by RB »

Offline Jaime

  • (Pronounced Hi-Me, not Ja-Me)
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 32753
  • Manna: 716
  • Gender: Male
  • I AM A DEPLORABLE
Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #42 on: Thu Oct 11, 2018 - 12:57:04 »
Red, you said the first time God hallowed the 7th day was in Exodus 20. The first time was in Genesis 2:3 'And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made." Do we assume he kept it a secret from his special creatures, mankind up until Exodus? The Sabbath was listed in Exodus as one of God's appointed times. Appointed for what? Sanctified for what in Genesis 2:3?
« Last Edit: Thu Oct 11, 2018 - 13:01:41 by Jaime »

Online RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5368
  • Manna: 304
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #43 on: Thu Oct 11, 2018 - 13:06:47 »
Red, you said the first time God hallowed the 7th day was in Exodus 20. The first time was in Genesis 2:3 'And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made." Do we assume he kept it a secret from his special creatures, mankind up until Exodus?
Well I meant AFTER Genesis 2:3 that was a given. But from Genesis 2:3 not a word UNTIL Exodus, if so where? Kept it a secret? No, it just was NOT a commandment that was known and practiced. Truly, most of the world was in darkness until God called Abraham and through him raised up a nation to them he gave them his laws, statutes, judgments, etc.

Offline Jaime

  • (Pronounced Hi-Me, not Ja-Me)
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 32753
  • Manna: 716
  • Gender: Male
  • I AM A DEPLORABLE
Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #44 on: Thu Oct 11, 2018 - 13:12:30 »
We don’t read of a commandment for Cain and Able to be making sacrifices to God, but they did. If God sanctified a day as HIS appointed time with man, why would he not share that with all men prior to the Jews? Are we to assume if it’s not recorded in the Bible, it did not happen?

Online RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5368
  • Manna: 304
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #45 on: Thu Oct 11, 2018 - 13:27:44 »
We don’t read of a commandment for Cain and Able to be making sacrifices to God, but they did. If God sanctified a day as HIS appointed time with man, why would he not share that with all men prior to the Jews? Are we to assume if it’s not recorded in the Bible, it did not happen?
God PROMISED a redeemer in Genesis 3:15 and to add to that~God made coats of SKINS and clothed Adam and Eve SHOWING to them and future generations of the sacrifice that he would provide for the man to be clothed upon to cover his sins. Abel by faith believed God, but Cain did not and offered the fruits of his own labor and was rejected.
Quote
Are we to assume if it’s not recorded in the Bible, it did not happen?
Well, let me turn the table and ask you should we assume he did if we do not see ANYONE observing the seventh day UNTIL Exodus? I think it is much more reasonable to believe that it was NOT commanded until Exodus 16. SURELY we would read of Jacob and Abraham and even JOSEPH (while in Eygpt) practicing it if it was commanded for them to do so. Not even a hint of it. WHY is this so?
« Last Edit: Thu Oct 11, 2018 - 13:34:49 by RB »

Offline Jaime

  • (Pronounced Hi-Me, not Ja-Me)
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 32753
  • Manna: 716
  • Gender: Male
  • I AM A DEPLORABLE
Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #46 on: Thu Oct 11, 2018 - 15:11:49 »
Red, if God SANCTIFIED the Sabbath in Genesis 2, it doesn’t seem unreasonable that mankind would have honored it as a sanctified day before Exodus 20, where he made it special PARTICULARILY for His people. A lot in the history of mankind even between Adam and Eve and their grown sons is not known during the boys formative years. We jump from Eve having a son, then another, then they are grown men offering sacrifices. I would see no reason to assume 1 generation out from creation that God’s sanctified day was de-sanctified. There is nothing in scripture documenting such de-sanctification. Why must there have been evidence of honoring the sanctified day so soon after God himself sanctified it? Another question is, what was the ourpose of God sanctifying the Sabbath or 7th day? For his own sake?

Yes God not only got the Israelites out of Egypt, but he also was working to get Egypt out of them during their 400 years there, hence the whole story of Moses and the wonderings in the wilderness and the giving of the law and the sacrificial system, to prepare Abraham’s seed for the perfect sacrifice.

Jesus came and expanded the Law to add the spirit of the Law to the letter of the law. He asked them is it right to do good on the Sabbath? Of course it is. He told them if your donkey is stuck in a ditch on the Sabbath wouldn’t you pull it out. He raised the bar in every case of the Law. Don’t just not kill, do not harber anger in your heart. Don’t just not commit the act of adultery, don’t even have lust in your hearts. Under the Law a 10% tithe was required. Under the New Covenant, we are to give as we are prospered. Again a raised bar.
« Last Edit: Thu Oct 11, 2018 - 16:59:47 by Jaime »

Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2001
  • Manna: 9
Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #47 on: Fri Oct 12, 2018 - 00:07:30 »
Quote
Quote from: Michael2012 on Yesterday at 15:33:09
RB, I refer to the Law that was given to the Israelites through Moses. All that was given to them.

May I ask, in your understanding, what does scriptures say, is/are the purpose/s of the Law, that it was given? And to whom does scriptures say it was given?
Michael is a very large sense, the law was given to Israel.
Quote
Quote from: Paul
Romans 9:3,5~"For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
But, that NOT to say that the law in a restricted sense which are summed up in the Ten Commandments were NOT written on Adam's and Eve's heart at creation per Romans 2 as I said above. Now, it is ALSO true that Israel had hundreds of more legislation, judicial and ceremonial and Dietary laws that were ONLY given to them UNTIL the time of reformation when they were FOREVER abolished, never to be enforced again.

The Ten Commandments were given through Moses. Whether they were given to Adam and Eve and to all those who lived before God wrote them in tablets of stone and given to the Israelites through Moses is not part of our discussion. The point is, the Ten Commandments were given as part of the Law, the Mosaic Law, as also the rest that are contained in the Law. So, when we speak of the Law, they can't be taken separate or out from it.

Quote
Quote from: Michael on: Yesterday at 15:33:09
what does scriptures say, is/are the purpose/s of the Law, that it was given?
Brother, it would be wise to separate the law of God contained in the Ten Commandments, which laws can be summed up in two commandments... Love to God and love for our neighbors~and the "legislation, judicial and ceremonial and dietary laws", of which most pointed to how Israel was to be SEPARATE from other nations as far as how they live their life, which laws where only to be temporary proven by Acts 10 and Acts 15.

Now the law of God contained in the Ten Commandments served other purposes, which I must come back and consider, for I have meetings that I must attend.

As I have pointed out above RB, the Ten Commandments were given as part of the Law, the Mosaic Law, as also the rest that are contained in the Law. I find it strange and unwise to take them separate or out from the Law.

The Law, as can be learnt from scriptures, were given with purpose/s, of which I asked what you see in scriptures these are.

I'll be eagerly waiting for the rest of your response on this.

Online RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5368
  • Manna: 304
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #48 on: Fri Oct 12, 2018 - 05:21:25 »
Jesus came and expanded the Law to add the spirit of the Law to the letter of the law. He asked them is it right to do good on the Sabbath? Of course it is. He told them if your donkey is stuck in a ditch on the Sabbath wouldn’t you pull it out. He raised the bar in every case of the Law. Don’t just not kill, do not harber anger in your heart. Don’t just not commit the act of adultery, don’t even have lust in your hearts. Under the Law a 10% tithe was required. Under the New Covenant, we are to give as we are prospered. Again a raised bar.
Brother I agree whole heartily what you have said here, proven by the sermon on the mount. But the Sabbath day as was given to Israel, was very unique and left no room for one to break it, even by least infraction, no mercy was to be shown, NOT even picking up sticks for a fire. THIS LAW NT Christians are NOT under~for many reasons mentions above already.

Now, concerning Genesis 2:2,3 I FULLY agree that God blessed and sanctified the seventh day for a reason~MUCH DIFFERENT than the Sabbath given to Israel In Exodus.

First, I can do no better than quote from John Calvin's excellent remark from Genesis 2:2,3..The highlights are mine.... "Verse 2. And he rested on the seventh day . The question may not improperly be put, what kind of rest this was. For it is certain that inasmuch as God sustains the world by his power, governs it by his providence, cherishes and even propagates all creatures, he is constantly at work. Therefore that saying of Christ is true, that the Father and he himself had worked from the beginning hitherto, 3 because, if God should but withdraw his hand a little, all things would immediately perish and dissolve into nothing, as is declared in Psalm 104:29. 4 And indeed God is rightly acknowledged as the Creator of heaven and earth only whilst their perpetual preservation is ascribed to him. 5 The solution of the difficulty is well known, that God ceased from all his work, when he desisted from the creation of new kinds of things. But to make the sense clearer, understand that the last touch of God had been put, in order that nothing might be wanting to the perfection of the world. And this is the meaning of the words of Moses, From all his work which he had made ; for he points out the actual state of the work as God would have it to be, as if he had said, then was completed what God had proposed to himself. On the whole, this language is intended merely to express the perfection of the fabric of the world; and therefore we must not infer that God so ceased from his works as to desert them, since they only flourish and subsist in him. Besides, it is to be observed, that in the works of the six days, those things alone are comprehended which tend to the lawful and genuine adorning of the world. It is subsequently that we shall find God saying, Let the earth bring forth thorns and briers, by which he intimates that the appearance of the earth should be different from what it had been in the beginning. But the explanation is at hand; many things which are now seen in the world are rather corruptions of it than any part of its proper furniture. For ever since man declined from his high original, it became necessary that the world should gradually degenerate from its nature. We must come to this conclusion respecting the existence of fleas, caterpillars, and other noxious insects. In all these, I say, there is some deformity of the world, which ought by no means to be regarded as in the order of nature, since it proceeds rather from the sin of man than from the hand of God. Truly these things were created by God, but by God as an avenger. In this place, however, Moses is not considering God as armed for the punishment of the sins of men; but as the Artificer, the Architect, the bountiful Father of a family, who has omitted nothing essential to the perfection of his edifice. At the present time, when we look upon the world corrupted, and as if degenerated from its original creation, let that expression of Paul recur to our mind, that the creature is liable to vanity, not willingly, but through our fault, (Romans 8:20,) and thus let us mourn, being admonished of our just condemnation.

Verse 3. And God blessed the seventh day . It appears that God is here said to bless according to the manner of men, because they bless him whom they highly extol. Nevertheless, even in this sense, it would not be unsuitable to the character of God; because his blessing sometimes means the favor which he bestows upon his people, as the Hebrews call that man the blessed of God, who, by a certain special favor, has power with God. (See Genesis 24:31.) Enter thou blessed of God. Thus we may be allowed to describe the day as blessed by him which he has embraced with love, to the end that the excellence and dignity of his works may therein be celebrated. Yet I have no doubt that Moses, by adding the word sanctified, wished immediately to explain what he had said, and thus all ambiguity is removed, because the second word is exegetical of the former.  God therefore sanctifies the seventh day, when he renders it illustrious, that by a special law it may be distinguished from the rest. Whence it also appears, that God always had respect to the welfare of men. I have said above, that six days were employed in the formation of the world; not that God, to whom one moment is as a thousand years, had need of this succession of time, but that he might engage us in the consideration of his works. He had the same end in view in the appointment of his own rest, for he set apart a day selected out of the remainder for this special use. Wherefore, that benediction is nothing else than a solemn consecration, by which God claims for himself the meditations and employments of men on the seventh day. This is, indeed, the proper business of the whole life, in which men should daily exercise themselves, to consider the infinite goodness, justice, power, and wisdom of God, in this magnificent theater of heaven and earth. But, lest men should prove less sedulously attentive to it than they ought, every seventh day has been especially selected for the purpose of supplying what was wanting in daily meditation. First, therefore, God rested; then he blessed this rest, that in all ages it might be held sacred among men: or he dedicated every seventh day to rest, that his own example might be a perpetual rule. The design of the institution must be always kept in memory: for God did not command men simply to keep holiday every seventh day, as if he delighted in their indolence; but rather that they, being released from all other business, might the more readily apply their minds to the Creator of the world. Lastly, that is a sacred rest, 6 which withdraws men from the impediments of the world, that it may dedicate them entirely to God. But now, since men are so backward to celebrate the justice, wisdom, and power of God, and to consider his benefits, that even when they are most faithfully admonished they still remain torpid, no slight stimulus is given by God's own example, and the very precept itself is thereby rendered amiable. For God cannot either more gently allure, or more effectually incite us to obedience, than by inviting and exhorting us to the imitation of himself. Besides, we must know, that this is to be the common employment not of one age or people only, but of the whole human race. Afterwards, in the Law, a new precept concerning the Sabbath was given, which should be peculiar to the Jews, and but for a season; because it was a legal ceremony shadowing forth a spiritual rest, the truth of which was manifested in Christ. Therefore the Lord the more frequently testifies that he had given, in the Sabbath, a symbol of sanctification to his ancient people. 7 Therefore when we hear that the Sabbath was abrogated by the coming of Christ we must distinguish between what belongs to the perpetual government of human life, and what properly belongs to ancient figures, the use of which was abolished when the truth was fulfilled. Spiritual rest is the mortification of the flesh; so that the sons of God should no longer live unto themselves, or indulge their own inclination. So far as the Sabbath was a figure of this rest, I say, it was but for a season; but inasmuch as it was commanded to men from the beginning that they might employ themselves in the worship of God, it is right that it should continue to the end of the world.

Which God created and made . 8 Here the Jews, in their usual method, foolishly trifle, saying, that God being anticipated in his work by the last evening, left certain animals imperfect, of which kind are fauns and satyrs, as though he had been one of the ordinary class of artifices who have need of time. Ravings so monstrous prove the authors of them to have been delivered over to a reprobate mind, as a dreadful example of the wrath of God. As to the meaning of Moses, some take it thus: that God created his Works in order to make them, inasmuch as from the time he gave them being, he did not withdraw his hand from their preservation. But this exposition is harsh. Nor do I more willingly subscribe to the opinion of those who refer the word make to man, whom God placed over his works, that he might apply them to use, and in a certain sense perfect them by his industry. I rather think that the perfect form of God's works is here noted; as if he had said God so created his works that nothing should be wanting to their perfection; or the creation has proceeded to sucks a point, that the work is in all respects perfect."

As I said above~I have as an NT believer practice the spirit of the example given by God in Genesis 2,3, but DO NOT practice the rigor law of the Jewish Sabbath as given by Moses, and done away by the coming of Christ proven by NO direct commandment given to NT Christians, or even an example of any of them practicing the JEWISH LAW of the Sabbath as given by Moses and enforced by the Jews~well, as it served their purposes and when it did not they ignored it.

I practice Genesis 2:2, 3 according to Isaiah 58:13...
Quote from: Isaiah
Isaiah 58:13~"If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
THIS is the Sabbath that any NT Christian should and do delight in and as much as lieth within them KEEP. I have for over forty-five of my Christian life. There's not a man living today that practices the JEWISH Sabbath AS GIVEN to Israel of old, not one person, not even the SDA as much as they worship that golden calf.
« Last Edit: Sat Oct 13, 2018 - 04:16:04 by RB »

Online RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5368
  • Manna: 304
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #49 on: Fri Oct 12, 2018 - 05:40:43 »
As I have pointed out above RB, the Ten Commandments were given as part of the Law, the Mosaic Law, as also the rest that are contained in the Law. I find it strange and unwise to take them separate or out from the Law.
Okay, that's what I said above, read my post carefully and you should see this very clearly. BUT, I also added:
Quote from: RB
But, that NOT to say that the law in a restricted sense which are summed up in the Ten Commandments were NOT written on Adam's and Eve's heart at creation per Romans 2 as I said above.
Michael, you generally follow post very well, but for some strange reason, you did not follow mine very well.
Quote
I find it strange and unwise to take them separate or out from the Law.
Not even sure what you are talking about~I have not done so. That's really impossible to do~BUT, there're divisions to be made WITHIN the laws given by Moses to Israel FOR SURE. Many of which are GOOD and RIGHTEOUS judgments for us to follow even in our Christian life as a believer. Some are NOT blinding on us but were given ONLY as a means of Israel not following the world's way of living, yet in Christ, they are done away with, such as MANY of their dietaries laws PROVEN by Acts 10, etc. SO, you must be clearer on what you are talking about, your post made very little sense to me, and I say that very respectfully to you as a brother to a brother.
« Last Edit: Fri Oct 12, 2018 - 05:44:31 by RB »

Online RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5368
  • Manna: 304
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #50 on: Sat Oct 13, 2018 - 04:14:09 »
Should not this thread be moved to the theology forum and not in the end-times-forum? It's not easy to locate when looking for it.

Online RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5368
  • Manna: 304
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #51 on: Sat Oct 13, 2018 - 04:54:43 »
Quote from: Paul
Romans 7:4, 6 in part...."Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the Law. . . . Now we are delivered from the Law".

"Dead to the Law" in 7:4 is parallel with "dead to sin" in 6:2: parallel in this sense, that it is objective "death" not subjective; the judicial and not the practical aspect of truth which is in view. We should observe that Paul said, we "became dead to the Law by the body of Christ," not by a Divine repeal of the Law~ in other words, we died to the Law vicariously, in the person of our blessed Substitute...the Lamb of God provided for us by Divine grace. So, too, we are "delivered from the Law"~  because we have "died to that wherein we were held" as lawbreakers. In Christ, we "died" to the judicial threatenings and ceremonial requirements of the Law, no longer held under condemnation.

"Dead to the Law"~ "By the term the Law, in this place, is intended that Law which is obligatory on both Jews and Gentiles as summed up in the ten commandments. It is the Law, the work of which is written in the hearts of all men beginning with Adam and Eve at creation; and that Law which was given to the Jews in which they rested, Romans 2:17. It is the Law taken in the largest extent of the word, including the whole will of God in any way manifested to all mankind, whether Jew or Gentile. All those whom the apostle is addressing, had been under this Law in their unregenerate state... To the moral Law exclusively here and throughout the rest of the chapter, the apostle refers... Dead to the Law means freedom from the power of the Law, as having endured its penalty, and satisfied its demands in the PERSON of Jesus Christ. It has ceased to have a claim on the obedience of believers in order to enter into life eternal~ the law no longer has any right to pronounce its curse, BECAUSE of Christ yielding perfect obedience to it for us per 2nd Corinthians 5:21!, although it still remains our rule of duty" proven by Romans 7 and many other scriptures.

"Now we are delivered from the Law"~Christ hath fulfilled the Law, and suffered its penalty for us, and we, in consequence, are free from its demands for the purpose of obtaining life, or that, on account of the breach of it, we should suffer the second death.

"The deliverance from Law in Galatians is that which leads to the sonship of all saints, while the deliverance in Romans leads to the union of all saints with Christ. But in both they are viewed as all alike having been in bondage under Law, and all alike delivered from it. For indeed it is the design of the Holy Spirit ever to lead the saints of all ages to regard themselves as delivered from a common guilt, redeemed from a common curse~"the curse of the Law".....rescued from a common doom, the second death; and all this as the result of the curse being fulfilled in the death of Jesus Christ in whom they all alike died" to the law of God....legally speaking.

One more thought, I said above:
Quote from: Red Baker
It has ceased to have a claim on the obedience of believers in order to enter into life eternal~ the law no longer has any right to pronounce its curse, BECAUSE of Christ yielding perfect obedience to it for us per 2nd Corinthians 5:21!
This is the TRUTH of the gospel of Jesus Christ, YET men on this forum STILL insist that we are UNDER obligation to walk in obedience (they can NEVER explain exactly what they mean by that statement) to the word of God or, we will not inherit eternal life! That goes AGAINST so many scriptures where Paul declared PLAINLY that believers are DEAD to the law THROUGH the body of Jesus Christ~dead for EVERMORE! OR, else Christ sacrifice for our sins was not a perfect sacrifice! Either the law has yet claims upon believers, or the law DOES NOT have any claims upon us. It has none! Now, this being true, should we continue in sins that God's grace can abound? ABSOLUTELY NOT, or as Paul said GOD FORBID.

« Last Edit: Sat Oct 13, 2018 - 05:12:18 by RB »

Offline 4WD

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7240
  • Manna: 220
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #52 on: Sat Oct 13, 2018 - 06:24:38 »
RB,
Yes, that we have been delivered from the law does not mean that we are free from obedience to the law; at least the moral aspects of the law. [We are free from the ritual performance of animal sacrifices, etc of the law; those have been superceded by the perfect sacrifice of Jesus]  We are not free to murder, steal, etc.  To be delivered from the law simply means to no longer be subject to the penalty of the law, i.e., eternal condemnation, the second death.

Obedience is still the requirement.  It is just that for those of us in Christ, failure to obey the law does not carry the sentence of the law, namely damnation.  That is why Paul anticipated the question and answered it with, "Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?" (Rom 6:1-2)

Quote from: RB
Either the law has yet claims upon believers, or the law DOES NOT have any claims upon us. It has none!
The law still has claims. The claims did not go away; it is just that those claims have been fulfilled ahead of time by Jesus. 
« Last Edit: Sat Oct 13, 2018 - 06:29:25 by 4WD »

Online RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5368
  • Manna: 304
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #53 on: Sat Oct 13, 2018 - 10:15:09 »
does not mean that we are free from obedience to the law; at least the moral aspects of the law
4WD, I AGREE, where in my posts do you read where I said that the law is NOT our rule of life to live by...WHERE?  You need to reread what I have written.
Quote from: 4WD on: Today at 06:24:38
We are not free to murder, steal, etc.  To be delivered from the law simply means to no longer be subject to the penalty of the law, i.e., eternal condemnation, the second death.
I agree 100%....you need to read what I have written again, you must have been brain dead while reading my posts.
Quote from: 4WD on: Today at 06:24:38
Obedience is still the requirement.
Agree, yet our obedience is NOT what determines whether or not we will receive eternal life~that's by grace through the obedience of ONE person...... and his name is Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God.
Quote from: 4WD on: Today at 06:24:38
It is just that for those of us in Christ, failure to obey the law does not carry the sentence of the law, namely damnation.
Agree.
Quote from: 4WD on: Today at 06:24:38
The law still has claims. The claims did not go away; it is just that those claims have been fulfilled ahead of time by Jesus.
Agree, just NOT any claims upon us if we fail to keep its commandment.

Offline 4WD

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7240
  • Manna: 220
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #54 on: Sat Oct 13, 2018 - 12:43:26 »
RB,
Perhaps it is too subtle a distinction, but Jesus did not negate the penalty we owe God for trespassing and sin; rather he paid the penalty for us.  There is a difference.

Offline Amo

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3150
  • Manna: 28
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #55 on: Sat Oct 13, 2018 - 19:32:18 »
Quote
Quote
The Sabbath commandment begins with the word remember. Why would God ask humanity to remember to observe a special day they never knew about or observed before? Why would anyone presume He did, unless there intention was for it to be so in accordance with something other than God’s word.

And where to you find that commandment? In Exodus given to Israel for the first time!

Yes, it was given to the nation of Israel for the first time, because there was no nation of Israel until God called and brought them out of Egypt. The children of Israel became mingled and then enslaved to the people of Egypt, until God called them out and formed the nation of Israel.

Your insistence that God’s call to remembrance concerning the Sabbath only goes back as far as the children of Israel in the wilderness, is only according to your desire that the Sabbath was never kept by anyone prior to this. Nevertheless, God knew, and soon all of Israel knew, that the seventh day Sabbath was established at creation. Why would a call to remembrance of anything, stop short of going back to its original existence. It would not, but for those perhaps trying to deny that original existence, as you do regarding the seventh day Sabbath. 

Quote
Quote
Exdous 20:8--11~Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.”

This is the first time we read where God blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it. It is the second time we read of not working on the seventh day….

You have come to believe your own lies. Anyone can see for themselves in the book of Genesis that the day was blessed and sanctified at the end of creation just as the commandment quoted states. Take off your self imposed blinders. Simply refusing to see or acknowledge what is right in front of you, will never make it go away.

Quote
Quote
Exdous 16:22-26And it came to pass, that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for one man: and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses. And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning. And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein. And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field. Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none.

So when God officially gave Israel the Ten Commandment, he had JUST given them the law of the seventh day being a rest for them and ALL they had, including their animals as we read later on.  So, telling them to remember ONLY goes back to when they began gathering manna, and up until then, we have NO Record of them remembering the seventh day, if so...WHERE? You desire to take it all the way back to Adam and we have no record of that. EVEN IF WE DID, NO ONE today keeps the Jewish Sabbath of the OT in its rigor, slavish form as Isreal of old; certainly did not Jesus or the apostles, and we even less including YOU sir.

The commandment itself denies and refutes the above foolishness. It specifically states that it was established at the end of creation. Again, take off your self imposed blinders. You are in denial. In your state of madness in denying the truth, you now accuse God of establishing a rigorous and slavish institution to force upon His chosen people. It is hard to keep the carnal nature in check when fighting against the truth. Are you in fact accusing God of instituting a rigorous and slavish day of rest upon Israel?

Exo 1:11 Therefore they did set over them taskmasters to afflict them with their burdens. And they built for Pharaoh treasure cities, Pithom and Raamses. 12 But the more they afflicted them, the more they multiplied and grew. And they were grieved because of the children of Israel. 13 And the Egyptians made the children of Israel to serve with rigour: 14 And they made their lives bitter with hard bondage, in morter, and in brick, and in all manner of service in the field: all their service, wherein they made them serve, was with rigour.

Do you really think that God delivered the children of Israel from serving the Egyptians with rigor as slaves, just to impose upon them a slavish and rigorous, rest day? Isn’t the idea of a slavish and rigorous rest day, somewhat of a dichotomy? Your argument simply does not make much sense.


Quote
Quote
Apart from the Sabbath, none of the particulars of the other nine commandments are addressed at all in the book of Genesis. Yet we know from the book of Genesis, that Abraham kept the commandments of God.

Gen 26:3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father; 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

What commandments, statutes, and laws of God do you think Abraham kept? Why would you presume that the only commandment specifically referenced or addressed in the book of Genesis, would specifically be one that was not kept or observed by God’s chosen of the time covered in the book? One of whom the book states, obeyed God’s voice, kept His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His laws. Is it not because you do not wish it to be so? Perhaps not. Though we may judge what people do, ours is not to judge why.

I'm glad you said APART from the Sabbath, for we have NO record that Abraham ever kept it as his children after him were commanded. Sir, ALL of the commandments can be sum up into two of them Love to God and love to our neghbours~now do I really need to waste time proving to you that Abraham loved God and his neighbors? No, I do not it is so obvious that he did. Look how he treated Lot, and all that he had any dealings with~and not to mention that he was a friend of God, and no one is God's friend without loving and serving him ACCORDING TO THE LIGHT that one possesses. Again, when one is born of God they have a new man which after God is created in TRUE HOLINESS and holiness they will serve~the new man has the knowledge, and understanding, (spiritually) that Adam has BEFORE the fall.

You really are confused, and do confuse quite a bit in your defiance of truth. The scriptures record that the seventh day Sabbath was established at the end of creation before the fall. Now here you are denying that anyone ever kept or even knew about it, yet claiming that the born again individual has the spiritual knowledge of Adam before the fall. Also claiming that all God’s chosen before Israel knew no law, but only kept God’s law by the Spirit. So God said Abraham “obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws”, meaning that he never heard or knew them but obeyed them by the Spirit. Is that correct?

Then, I guess, God decided to form a nation of people He gave the law to so they could all be legalists, trying to keep the law because God actually did speak it and give it to them. Is that correct? Then I suppose, He brought forth Christ to free them from the slavery of legalism which He Himself established by giving Israel the law, so we can once again now keep it by the Spirit. Is that correct? Now we can forget about all the written commandments, the fourth especially, because God has delivered us from the legalism He established by giving Israel the law. Is this correct? I think you are confused, by rejection of the truth.

Abraham obeyed God’s voice, kept His charge, His commandments, statutes, and laws because God told them to Him and he listened to, believed, and obeyed God. Just as all the saved do because they believe God. Just as the saints are said to do all the way up to the last book and chapter of the bible.

Rev 12:And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.


Rev 22:And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.


You simply deny this because you are fighting against truth.

Quote
Quote
So also today, those who would be His, should observe the day He blessed and sanctified for all.

I use one out of seven days to rest and refresh myself and set that day aside for mediations and spiritual worship as much as possible, NOT in order to secure eternal life, but because of the EXAMPLE that God set for us in the beginning. ONE out of any seven days! For those who work in our medical fields, that day would be different than mine; those who are public servants ....policemen and women that day would rotate for many of them, yet they should PRACTICE resting their body and refueling themselves one out of seven days. I whole heartily believe in that example that God has set forth for us. We just do not make a golden calf out of a JEWISH DAY that has typical meaning attached to it. A meaning that you WORK so hard to destroy~In CHRIST NT believers CEASE from their own works and LOOK to Christ for our eternal rest in the world to come.... I'm finished with you, for now~I've said enough to prove my point.  Amo, I believe you have a zeal of God BUT, not according to knowledge. You are following a woman that was in love with Moses more than Christ! Selah.

Again, you are very confused, and loose or ignorant of many facts. I do not keep the Sabbath in order to be saved, such would be to deny the rest the Sabbath itself represents. When I was involved in law enforcement and search and rescue, I knew full well that performing such when necessary on the Sabbath was and remains the right thing to do for those in such situations. I suggest you keep your petty judgments and accusations to yourself, you do not know me or millions of other seventh day Sabbath keepers. You may not choose to believe it, but bearing false witness is still a sin.

Bearing false witness against your fallen brothers and sisters is one thing, bearing false witness against God is another altogether. You have equated the observances of God’s seventh day Sabbath, to worshipping the golden calf. To be quite frank, how dare you equate anything God established and or commanded at any time, to the worship of an idol of any kind. Then you equate the observance of God’s Sabbath, which He commanded, to the works of fallen humanity. Claiming we need to rest from the day of rest God gave us as a representation of the very rest you are supposedly defending. Again, it is the denial of truth that leads to such madness by one who claims to worship the God of scripture. You pronounce a curse upon the day God has blessed, and curse those who observe it against God’s blessing upon those who keep it. All the while thinking you serve the Lord Jesus Christ in doing so.

Finally you completely deny the facts of history in claiming that I and all the other countless millions of Christians throughout history that have kept God’s seventh day Sabbath, do so because of Ellen G. White. Surely your willing to admit, that those millions who kept it before her, did so for other reasons are you not? Then of course, you’ll have to admit that she and the rest of us SDA’s were fooled by the Seventh Day Baptists, who convinced several of our early leaders of the Sabbath truth. Again, I suggest you keep your petty accusations and judgments to yourself and stick to addressing the truth or not of what people believe, not things about them you cannot possibly know.

Eccl 12:3Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
« Last Edit: Sat Oct 13, 2018 - 19:35:00 by Amo »

Online RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5368
  • Manna: 304
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #56 on: Sun Oct 14, 2018 - 04:17:31 »
Again, you are very confused, and loose or ignorant of many facts. I do not keep the Sabbath in order to be saved, such would be to deny the rest the Sabbath itself represents. When I was involved in law enforcement and search and rescue, I knew full well that performing such when necessary on the Sabbath was and remains the right thing to do for those in such situations. I suggest you keep your petty judgments and accusations to yourself, you do not know me or millions of other seventh day Sabbath keepers. You may not choose to believe it, but bearing false witness is still a sin.
Your post is nothing more than ranting and raging and as Paul would say~vain jangling.

I will only say two things since you used no scriptures, there is not anything to have a reasonable dialogue over~I DO know some SDA, they have worked for me for years~So, I know their INCONSISTENCIES, as it relates to the laws given to Moses, and the seventh day Sabbath in particularly. It just does not stop with this doctrine of keeping the seventh day Sabbath, they are laden with WORKS in the doctrine of soteriology. I KNOW because I have met with them personally and talk with them, and I have had hundreds of conversation with the ones that worked for me. I never asked them to work on Saturday, even though my men did many times over, and still do~I respected their consciences in serving God according to the light they had, even though I did not agree with their understanding. So, yes I do know them somewhat, enough to say what I said above.

Secondly, I agree that Genesis 2:2, 3~was given FOR MAN's good, to serve him in refreshing his body and allowing him to set a day aside to elevate his thoughts off of the world unto God, yet Genesis 2:2, 3 and the Sabbath law that given by Moses to Israel is different, much different, and I also will say, that the burden is on YOUR SECT to prove where ANYONE practiced the sabbath as it was given by Moses to Israel, and as THEY observed it.....and while you are at that task, prove ALSO, where in the NT that believers are COMMANDED to remember the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH as it was given to Israel, JUST ONE VERSE would be sufficient~now, do not waste much time, for IT IS NOT THERE...you know that, and so do others outside of the sect of the SDA.

Sir, what does the "first day" of the week in the NT mean to you and your sect?
« Last Edit: Sun Oct 14, 2018 - 04:26:18 by RB »

Online RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5368
  • Manna: 304
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #57 on: Sun Oct 14, 2018 - 06:10:18 »
Quote from: The apostle Paul
Romans 10:4~"For Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness to every one that believeth"
Frequently, only the first half of this verse is quoted, "Christ is the end of the Law". But this is not all that is said here. Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness, that is, before God. The context unequivocally settles the scope and significance of this expression. Paul had just affirmed that Israel, who was ignorant of God’s righteousness, had gone about "to establish their own righteousness."There is one obvious sense in which Christ, is the end of the Law, and that is Jesus Christ's righteousness, obedience is the ONLY means whereby sinners can be made righteous before the law of God~it is not by man's obedience, but Christ alone.  Christ being the end of the law, DOES NOT mean that the law no longer serves a purpose, for it certainly does as a rule of life for believers to live by.

Another passage frequently appealed to by those who insist on the total abrogation of the Law is 2nd Corinthians chapter three. Such expressions as "That which is done away" (v. 11), and "that which is abolished" (v. 13) are regarded as alluding to the Ten Commandments "written and engraven in stones" (v. 7). That this is a mistake, is easily proven. For in Romans 13:9 and Ephesians 6:2 several of the Ten Commandments are quoted and enforced throughout the NT~James called the law the Royal law in chapter one of his epistle.  This is quite sufficient to prove that the moral Law is not "done away". And such scriptures as Isaiah 2:2, 3; Jeremiah 31:33, etc., make it plain that the Law is not abolished.

In 2nd Corinthians 3 (and again and again throughout the Epistle) Paul is contending against false "apostles" (note 2:17 and see further 6:1; 11:3, 4, 13, 22) who, preaching the Law to the exclusion of Christ, were seducing the people of God from the blessings of the new covenant. Consequently, the apostle is not here treating of the Law as the moral standard of conduct for believers, but as that which condemns sinners. The inspired penman is pointing out the folly of turning back to the Law as the ground of acceptance before God~which was what the false apostles insisted on. The method he follows is to draw a series of contrasts between the old covenant and the new, showing the immeasurable superiority of the latter over the former. He shows that apart from Christ, the old covenant was but a ministration of condemnation and death; that just as the body without the spirit is dead, so the Law without Christ was but a lifeless "letter". 2 Cor. 3, then contrasts Christianity with Judaism. That which has been "done away is the old covenant; that which is "abolished" (for the believer) is the ceremonial law.

In the Galatian Epistle, there are quite a number of verses which are used by those who affirm the Law has no relation to believers today~e. g. 2:19; 3:13; 3:23-25; 4:5; 5:18. Now it is impossible to understand these verses unless we first see what is the theme and character of the Epistle in which they are found. The theme of Galatians is the Believer’s Emancipation from the Law. The special character of the Epistle is that it was written to confirm the faith of Christians, who had been troubled and shaken by Judaisers. But a careful reading of the Epistle should show the Emancipation here viewed is not from the Law as the standard of moral conduct, but from the curse or penalty of the Law; and the particular heresy of the Judaisers was not that they pressed the Ten Commandments upon, the saints as a rule of life, but that they insisted the works of the Law must be fulfilled before a sinner could be saved. (See Acts 15:1). They pressed circumcision~like many do today with baptism, NO different! The trouble at Galatia was legalism and ritualism, ordinances, etc. Speaking strictly the three are one; for the attempt to secure Divine favor and acceptance through law observance leads inevitably to a work system instead of grace given freely through the work of Christ. That the Galatians were going over to the ground of law for acceptance with God is evident from the whole tenor of the Epistle.  The object of the Epistle to the Galatians was to restore among them the pure Gospel which they had received from Paul~but they had been bewitched so as to mingled the gospel of Christ with human works and ceremonies and a notion of their own free will and merits, as to have well-nigh lost it the truth of the gospel that they had been taught by Paul.

The central issue raised in Galatians is not what is the standard of conduct for the believer’s life, but what is the ground of a sinner's salvation from sin and condemantion. In proof of this assertion note carefully that in Gal. 1:7 Paul expressly says the Judaistic troublers were they who "would pervert the Gospel of Christ". Again, "That no man is justified by the Law in the sight of God is evident", etc. (3:11), shows the trend of the argument. Again; "For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, (or any work in which he is commanded to do IN ORDER to RECIEVE God's forgiveness,) then he is a debtor to do the whole Law" (5:3 and cf. 6:15) ONCE anyone imposed any work IN ORDER TO RECEIVE forgiveness. So,
Quote from: PAul
Galatians 5:4~"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the Law; ye are fallen from grace"
That is, from the TRUE DOCTRINE of grace.  The Law and the Gospel are irreconcilable as far as salvation from sin and condemantion. Every attempt to combine them strikes equally at the majesty of the Law and the grace of the Gospel.

On Gal. 3:25  "We are no longer under a schoolmaster! i.e., to be taught by the law as to our need of Christ, ONCE we UNDERSTAND that our salvation from sin and condemnation is through the faith/obedience and righteousness of ONE PERSON~Jesus Christ, the Son of God. It does not mean for precept as a rule of life, for we are.  It does not mean that the Ten Commandments are abolished, only it was not given to give life, but was given to teach us the TRUE source of eternal life for the believer, who has listen and learn from the great Schoolmaster...the Law of God.  It simply says, You are not saved by keeping the Commandments, nor are you lost if you fail. It is Christ's obedience that saves us, NOT ours. Once born of God we will obey from the instinct of the new nature and from gratitude,  The New Testament repeats and enforces all the Ten Commandments. They were given to be kept, and kept they shall be.
Quote from: Jesus
Mathew 5:19~"For all the Law is fulfilled in one word, even in this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself"
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 5:18~"But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law."
The Galatians were putting themselves in subjection to Law, and ignoring the free government of the Spirit. To be led by the Spirit is incompatible with being under the Law. So the beginning of Gal. 3. To be under the Law is thus to acknowledge its claim and to seek to obey it in hope of meriting eternal life". To be led by the Spirit is incompatible with being under the Law because the Holy Spirit leads a sinner to trust in Christ alone for salvation.
« Last Edit: Sun Oct 14, 2018 - 07:41:21 by RB »

Offline grams

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2111
  • Manna: 54
  • Gender: Female
Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #58 on: Sun Oct 14, 2018 - 06:58:45 »


[/          Eph.2:


       
8

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
 

9

Not of works, lest any man should boast.
 
       
b]

Offline 4WD

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7240
  • Manna: 220
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #59 on: Sun Oct 14, 2018 - 07:15:03 »
It does not mean that the Ten Commandments are abolished, only it was not given to give life, but was given to teach us the TRUE source of eternal life for the believer, who has listen and learn from the great Schoolmaster...the Law of God.  It simply says, You are not saved by keeping the Commandments, nor are you lost if you fail. It is Christ's obedience that saves us, NOT ours.
And whose obedience is spoken of in the following, Christ's or ours?

2Thess 1:8  dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

1Peter 4:17  For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?


Is obeying the gospel works?  It is, after all, doing something.  How can obeying the gospel not be the works that you speak of and disavow as having anything to do with salvation.  Here both Paul and Peter say that failure to obey the gospel leads to damnation.  How can that be?

Online RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5368
  • Manna: 304
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #60 on: Sun Oct 14, 2018 - 07:37:40 »
And whose obedience is spoken of in the following, Christ's or ours?

2Thess 1:8  dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

1Peter 4:17  For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?


Is obeying the gospel works?  It is, after all, doing something.  How can obeying the gospel not be the works that you speak of and disavow as having anything to do with salvation.  Here both Paul and Peter say that failure to obey the gospel leads to damnation.  How can that be?

You asked the same question in this thread:
Quote
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/understanding-'works'/
Answered here: Reply #24 on: Tue Oct 09, 2018 - 05:51:46

Offline 4WD

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7240
  • Manna: 220
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #61 on: Sun Oct 14, 2018 - 07:49:45 »
You asked the same question in this thread: Answered here: Reply #24 on: Tue Oct 09, 2018 - 05:51:46
And I refuted that in Reply #25.  Seriously, RB, you are so terribly inconsistent in your discussions about "works".  If obeying the gospel is works and without such works one is condemned, then it must follow that one is saved by such works.  But, of course, the Bible, specifically the NT, says over and over that salvation is not by works.

Online RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5368
  • Manna: 304
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #62 on: Sun Oct 14, 2018 - 08:18:36 »
And I refuted that in Reply #25.     
Let us say that you answered it, not refuted my post to you. I will give credit for answering it with the gospel that you hold to, which is not the one that Paul taught us from Galatians 2:16-5:4.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #61 on: Today at 07:49:45
Seriously, RB, you are so terribly inconsistent in your discussions about "works".
Right or wrong, one thing that I'm not guilty of is being inconsistent.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #61 on: Today at 07:49:45
If obeying the gospel is works and without such works one is condemned, then it must follow that one is saved by such works.
Sir, let us separateobeying to be BORN AGAIN, and obeying God ONCE he creates within us a new man, so that we CAN obey the gospel call! BIG DIFFERENCE my friend, a HUGE different. That's truly where you and I and your friends battle over. God alone quickens dead sinners SO THAT they CAN hear, believe AND OBEY. We have been over this one point many, many times.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #61 on: Today at 07:49:45
But, of course, the Bible, specifically the NT, says over and over that salvation is not by works.
As far as being born AGAIN, it is not, as far as works following those who have been born of God, it does~for faith without works is DEAD, being alone! I'm very consistent with my understanding and the teaching of the word of God. Your doctrine runs into roadblocks in the scriptures TELLING you to turn around and try again, yet you will not listen but insist of moving forward into danger of being told you hold another gospel contrary to Paul's. You are doing just like the Jews did in Paul's days....going about to establish your OWN righteousness. rejecting that Christ is the END OF THE LAW (the law of WORKS) for righteousness!  You have a zeal of God but NOT according to KNOWLEDGE!
« Last Edit: Mon Oct 15, 2018 - 04:56:04 by RB »

Offline 4WD

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7240
  • Manna: 220
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #63 on: Sun Oct 14, 2018 - 09:04:37 »
Sir, let us spearate obeying to be BORN AGAIN, and obeying God ONCE he creates within us a new man, so that we CAN obey the gospel call! BIG DIFFERENCE my friend, a HUGE different.
Yes, I would think that it is a HUGE difference to someone who doesn't even know what being born again is; what it means or how one becomes born again.  It is clear enough in Scripture, but of course what is said about it in Scripture is in direct conflict with Total Depravity and with Unconditional Election.

I am off to church now, but I will be back later to add to this.  But in the meantime, perhaps you could explain what you mean by "obeying to be born again".

Online RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5368
  • Manna: 304
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #64 on: Sun Oct 14, 2018 - 11:25:43 »
Yes, I would think that it is a HUGE difference to someone who doesn't even know what being born again is; what it means or how one becomes born again.
Why do you not DEAL WITH SCRIPTURES provided to you, instead of your logical fallacy which is nothing more than an ad hominem~which if people would look at most of your post, that are just that, and not much more than ad hominem.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #63 on: Today at 09:04:37 
who doesn't even know what being born again is; what it means or how one becomes born again.
That's another problem between you and I~I know that regeneration is 100% of God apart from the will of man, and the will of the flesh, per Jesus Christ's doctrine~and if he were here today, you would cast the same into his teeth, just as the Pharisees did to him many times over. But, he's here today working through his very elect saying the same thing, and you receive it not.
Quote from: Jesus Christ
John 1:13~Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
Yet your system of salvation from sin and condemnation teaches JUST THE OPPOSITE of what Jesus taught and is recorded for us in John 1:13.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #63 on: Today at 09:04:37
It is clear enough in Scripture, but of course what is said about it in Scripture is in direct conflict with Total Depravity and with Unconditional Election.
It is indeed clear enough in the holy scriptures which support Total depravity and Unconditional election which is what men like you truly hate~but, so does Satan, who was not of the elect angels~1st Timothy 5:21. IF there is no doctrine of unconditional election none would ever have been persevered, not one, for God alone is immutable, the same today, yesterday and FOREVER.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #63 on: Today at 09:04:37
I am off to church now
Church? You talking about the CALLED OUT ONES? per 1st Corinthians 1:24-31...why do you not take the Church to a meeting place and worship?  ::smile:: Okay, I know what mean.......May the Spirit of the Living God open your heart to this truth~ I would not question if he has not already opened your heart to love and fear him. He alone knows, I do not~but charity demands that I instruct and teach in the spirit of meekness considering my own weakness and proneness to error.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #63 on: Today at 09:04:37
But in the meantime, perhaps you could explain what you mean by "obeying to be born again".
I do not know, since I DID NOT use that expression, you tell me.

« Last Edit: Sun Oct 14, 2018 - 11:41:54 by RB »

Online RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5368
  • Manna: 304
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #65 on: Sun Oct 14, 2018 - 12:02:58 »
Quote from: Paul
Colossians 2:14~"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to His cross"
Here it is assumed that the "handwriting of ordinances" refers to the Ten Commandments, and, that "which was contrary to us", refers to Christians. Such a distortion is quickly discovered once this interpretation is exposed to the light. Observe, in the first place, that at the beginning of the previous verse the apostle refers to Gentile believer~"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh", etc. The "us" of v. 14 refers, then to Jewish believers. But between the "you" and the "us" is a word which supplies the key to what follows, namely, the word together, which here, as in Ephesians 2:5, 6, points to the spiritual union of believing Gentiles with believing Jews. Believing Jews and Gentiles were quickened together~and how could that be? Because they were quickened together with Him. Christ lived vicariously, as the Representative of all His people, so that when He died they all died (judicially); when He was quickened they all were; when He rose again they all rose: not merely one part of them did, but all together. But in order for Jew and Gentile to enjoy fellowship, in order for them to be brought together, that which had hitherto separated them must he made an end of. And it is this which is in view in Col. 2 :14. The "handwriting of ordinances" was against us, i.e. against the Jews, for their Divinely-given Law prohibited them from all religious intercourse with the Gentiles. But that which had been against the Jews, was taken out of the way, being nailed to the Cross. Nor does this interpretation stand unsupported: it is indubitably confirmed by a parallel passage.

It is well-known among students of the Word that the Epistles of Ephesians and Colossians are largely complementary and supplementary; and it will frequently be found that the one is absolutely indispensable to the interpretation of the other. Now in Ephesians 2, there is a passage which is strictly parallel with this portion of Col. 2. In v. 11 the apostle addresses the Gentile saints, who were of the Uncircumcision~note the reference to "uncircumcision" in Col. 2:13. Then in v. 12 he reminds them of how in their unconverted state they had been aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, etc. But in v. 13 he tells them that they had been made nigh by the blood of Christ. The result of this is stated in v. 14: 'For He is our peace who hath made both one" (i. e. both believing Jews and believing Gentiles) the "made both one" being parallel with the "quickened together" of Col. 2:13. Next, the apostle tells how this had been made possible: "And Hath broken down the middle wall of partition" (that had separated Jew from Gentile); which is parallel with and took it out of the way, etc. Then the apostle declares, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, which is parallel with blotting out the handwriting of ordinances! Thus has God most graciously not made us dependent on human interpretations of Colossians 2:13, 14, by interpreting it for us in Ephesians 2:11-15.
« Last Edit: Sun Oct 14, 2018 - 12:07:35 by RB »

Offline 4WD

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7240
  • Manna: 220
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #66 on: Sun Oct 14, 2018 - 18:16:01 »
But in the meantime, perhaps you could explain what you mean by "obeying to be born again".
I do not know, since I DID NOT use that expression, you tell me.
Say what??
Sir, let us spearate obeying to be BORN AGAIN, and obeying God ONCE he creates within us a new man, so that we CAN obey the gospel call!

Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2001
  • Manna: 9
Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #67 on: Mon Oct 15, 2018 - 00:53:18 »
SO, you must be clearer on what you are talking about, your post made very little sense to me, and I say that very respectfully to you as a brother to a brother.

Sorry RB, if that was the case. I was coming from this:

Quote
Quote from: RB on Sun Oct 07, 2018 - 05:45:40
Quote

Quote

Quote from: Michael Reply #32 on: Yesterday at 19:43:16
The Law of Moses was not given and is not given, to Christians who have Christ, but to the Jew
In what sense are you using the The Law of Moses? The entire system of legislation, judicial and ceremonial, etc. and the Ten Commandments? Then we must disagree. The Ten Commandments is the SUM OF ALL of God's commandments summed up in ten of them~and ALL of God's commandments (both OT and NT are summed up into TWO of them....
RB, I refer to the Law that was given to the Israelites through Moses. All that was given to them.

May I ask, in your understanding, what does scriptures say, is/are the purpose/s of the Law, that it was given? And to whom does scriptures say it was given?

Among others this is what I find in scriptures relevant to this.

That the law was given through Moses to the Israelites (I am not taking issue as to whether it was written in the hearts of other peoples). It was given (that is added) to the chosen people of God, in connection with God's promises to Abraham and his Seed. And that, because of transgressions. The law was given to keep the Israelites under guard, until Christ had come, keeping them for the faith which would afterward be revealed. The law serves as a tutor to bring them to Christ, that they might be justified by faith.

And thus my point that the law given through Moses written in scriptures, which includes the ten commandments, was not given to the Christians, but to the Israelites, the Jews. Not saying anything whether the ten commandments which are included in the law are only for the Israelites or not.   

Christians, whether former Jews or converts to Judaism or Gentiles, are not under the law of Moses. Christians are not under the law, but under grace.

The law was given through Moses for the reason/s that I stated above. One should also realize that there was not a law given which could have given life, for if there was, truly righteousness would have been by the law. But since there was none, the law then was not given for us to have life. And righteousness does not come through the law. For if that were so, then Christ died in vain.

The law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. And every man ought to know that it is by grace (not by the law) that one is saved, through faith. God's promise of the eternal inheritance was not through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Online RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5368
  • Manna: 304
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #68 on: Mon Oct 15, 2018 - 04:52:10 »
Say what??
I did say:
Quote from:  RB on Yesterday at 08:18:36
Sir, let us separate obeying to be BORN AGAIN, and obeying God ONCE he creates within us a new man, so that we CAN obey the gospel call!
You asked me:
Quote from:  4WD on Yesterday at 09:04:37
But in the meantime, perhaps you could explain what you mean by "obeying to be born again".
4WD you are very intelligent naturally speaking, we all know that~but your ability to follow spiritual teaching is somewhat lacking my friend, in some areas, not all.

I did not use the expression OBEYING to be born again~but one needs to be born again so that they CAN obey!

One more time....
Quote
Sir, let us separate obeying to be BORN AGAIN, and obeying God ONCE he creates within us a new man, so that we CAN obey the gospel call!
Now, my freind, do you understand what I was saying?

Online RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5368
  • Manna: 304
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #69 on: Mon Oct 15, 2018 - 05:39:02 »
Sorry RB, if that was the case. I was coming from this:
Michael I had lost my post that I started to you, and time will not allow me to start over at the moment, but I will later. We will not be far apart~but, I believe I may have a better handle on this than you do, only because I have given many, many hours on this very subject over the years, and I agree that it is a difficult subject to get our understanding around, proven by Paul rebuking even Peter, one of the main pillars of the church in the beginning, so it should not surprise us to see ourselves and our brethren struggling to get a solid hold on the purpose of the law versus the gospel of Jesus Christ~ this very battle has been going on since the beginning and will until Christ returns again.

I do not want to rush my thoughts just to be answering others post~later.  RB