the restrainer

[19]

2 Thess 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. NKJV

The pre-trib rapture group claims that the entire church is the restrainer because the Spirit of Jesus is in them. They say the church restrains the lawless one because of the Spirit of Jesus within them. That is why the church has to be taken out of the way prior to the tribulation.

The Spirit of Jesus that is within all believers draws all people to Himself. But there is another Spirit that influences the world in a way that curtails sin. He could be taken from the church while the church remained on earth.

Let's look at the church prior to the tribulation.

Rev 3:7 "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write,
'These things says He who is holy, He who is true, "He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens":  8 "I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it; for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name........  10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. NKJV

Rev 3: 14 "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write,
'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:  15 "I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot.  16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth..............NKJV
 
Jesus gave the church history in chapters 2 and 3. There are probably elements of all churches in every age. And any one christian will have membership in one and maybe more of the churches. These are the last 2 listed and all believers will be in one or the other.

Whether you like it or not if Jesus calls an assembly a church it is a part of His body and part of the redeemed. Those believers in Laodicia were lukewarm but they were saved. To be vomited out of a body one has to be in the body.

John 15:26 "But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.  27 And you also will bear witness, because you have been with Me from the beginning. NKJV 

One function of the Helper, who comes from the Father, is to be a witness for Jesus. The Helper comes from the Father, not the son.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.  8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: NKJV

One function of the Helper is to convict unbelievers.  If His conviction is taken away the world is not convicted of sin and has no fear of judgment.

John 14:15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments.  16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever —   17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. NKJV

10% of the believers in most churches do 90% of the work. They are the ones who have the Helper.  Which of the 2 churches in the last times do you think would have the Helper. (Hint it's the one He promised to keep from the worldwide trial) People can be without the Helper and still be true believers whereas every true believer has to have the Spirit of Jesus. The Helper is only sent to those who prove they love Jesus by doing the work that He wants done. If God called the Philadelphia church to heaven it would leave the world with no awareness of their sin and no fear of judgment.

 There is not one physical church of Philadelphia or Laodicia. Every believer would fit spiritually into one of those churches. Those who are in the Laodicean church would be left behind to suffer until the end of the age.

Luke 21:34 "But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly.  35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth.  36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man." NKJV

Jesus was talking to His disciples in the scriptures above. He continued to warn His church to always be alert. However, in this one He explains why we should not be lukewarm believers.

[19]

God calling the Philadelphia church would not be the rapture described by Paul, that would come later. As it states in the book of Revelation the first resurrection has Christians that died in the great tribulation. It is also clear that a resurrection of 2 candlesticks takes place in Revelation chapter 11 which is the first resurrection in the book of Revelation. Therefore no resurrection could have happened at chapter 4 when no one had yet died during the great tribulation.

2 Thess 2:2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away (apostasy) comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, NKJV

What is apostasy? The Helper leaving the world with the church of Philadelphia and the Laodiceans remaining would be the fulfillment of both meanings. It would cause a rebellion against God by unbelievers.

Rev 3:18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.  19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent.  20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.  21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. NKJV


God gives grace to those of His who have showed love towards Him at one time. He will discipline those in the Laodicean church who stayed around. Given what God said about the church, there would be a mass falling away (apostasy) of those from the church that remained.

Matt 25:1 "Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.  2 Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish.  3 Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them,  4 but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.  5 But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept. 6 "And at midnight a cry was heard: 'Behold, the bridegroom is coming; go out to meet him!'  7 Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps.  8 And the foolish said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.'  9 But the wise answered, saying, 'No, lest there should not be enough for us and you; but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.'  10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut. NKJV

This parable in in between 2 parables urging His people to always be prepared for His return. He is telling believers to be ready. Did all the virgins have oil to begin with? Yes, their light was going out! And what does the oil stand for in the parable? The Spirit which gives light. Some of the Laodicean church could survive three and a half years but  many would not make it to the rapture.

[robycop3]

  The Restrainer who has kept the 'beast/man of sin' from being made manifest is the Holy Spirit.

  And the "seven church ages" doctrine is as false as preterism is.

[19]

The time is near! Believers should get off their duffs and get in a bible teaching church that is involved with out reach ministries to the poor and unbelievers. Don't go to only the worship and preaching service. Get into small group fellowship and study the bible. Volunteer for any ministries the church offers, especially those that scare you not just the ones your comfortable with. Get out and witness for Jesus. The only way to delay the inevitable tribulation is to get Jesus into unbelievers. The way to ensure you don't go into the tribulation is to get more Jesus into you. The way you do that is by showing Him that you love Him.

[robycop3]

  There'll be no delay of the trib. God has set the date when it'll begin. But you ARE right about spreading the Gospel. We can't do too much of that !

[19]

  There'll be no delay of the trib. God has set the date when it'll begin. But you ARE right about spreading the Gospel. We can't do too much of that !

You are right . The day has been set. Repenting sinners and His children influenced that date. If there was a revival it would have been considered in that date being set.

[DaveW]

2 Thess 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. NKJV

The pre-trib rapture group claims that the entire church is the restrainer because the Spirit of Jesus is in them. They say the church restrains the lawless one because of the Spirit of Jesus within them. That is why the church has to be taken out of the way prior to the tribulation.

My pretrib rapture church growing up (Church of the Nazarene, Assembly of God) taught the HOLY SPIRIT was the restrainer and that was why NO ONE could be saved during the Tribulation. Without the Spirit to draw them and convict of sin there could be no repentance or salvation.

[19]

My pretrib rapture church growing up (Church of the Nazarene, Assembly of God) taught the HOLY SPIRIT was the restrainer and that was why NO ONE could be saved during the Tribulation. Without the Spirit to draw them and convict of sin there could be no repentance or salvation.

Where does it say that the Spirit of Jesus convicts any unbeliever of sin of sin?

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.  8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: NKJV

The Helper convicts the world in regards to sin, righteousness and judment.

John 15:26 "But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father NKJV

The Helper comes from the Father.

John 14:15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments.  16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever —   17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. NKJV

We get the Helper if we keep Jesus' commandments. If we do God's work the Holy Spirit from the Father ,the Helper,  helps us in the work. God will not send a Helper to us if don't do His will. He does not send the Helper to us if we will not use Him.

John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. NKJV

The Helper is the Holy Spirit but it comes from the Father. The Holy Spirit that all believers have is the Spirit of Jesus. He helps us a lot in many different ways . Other draw unbelievers to Himself, he does not convict them.

[DaveW]

Where does it say that the Spirit of Jesus convicts any unbeliever of sin of sin?

You yourself quoted the verse:

Jn 16:8  ...  He will convict the world of sin, ...

"the world" is unbelievers. 

BTW - I did NOT say "Spirit of Jesus." I said "Holy Spirit." He proceeds from the Father, not the Son.

"No one can come to Me (the Son) unless the Father draws him." (thru the person of the Holy Spirit)

[19]

You yourself quoted the verse:

Jn 16:8  ...  He will convict the world of sin, ...

"the world" is unbelievers. 

BTW - I did NOT say "Spirit of Jesus." I said "Holy Spirit." He proceeds from the Father, not the Son.

"No one can come to Me (the Son) unless the Father draws him." (thru the person of the Holy Spirit)

The only Holy Spirit all believers have is the Spirit of Jesus. The entire church of Jesus has His Spirit or they are not part of His church. Only those believers who show their  love by obeying His commands have the Helper. Therefore those who are being obedient could be kept from the hour of trial. Those who do not have the Helper would be left. The Holy Spirit of Jesus would still be in the world but it's the Helper from the Father that does the convicting and it would be gone.

[Rella]

The only Holy Spirit all believers have is the Spirit of Jesus. The entire church of Jesus has His Spirit or they are not part of His church. Only Those believers whoshow their  love by obeying His commands have the Helper. Therefore those whomare being obedient could be kept from the hour of trial. Those who do not mhave the Helper would be left. The Holy Spirit of Jesus would still be in the world but it's the Helper from the Father that dies the convicting and it would be gone.

 

Until you understand God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit you shall remain clueless.

[DaveW]

Until you understand God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit you shall remain clueless.

Amen.  Well said.

[19]

Until you understand God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit you shall remain clueless.

My bible clearly states that if a believer is obeying Jesus' commands they get the Helper who convicts the world of sin. This Helper comes from the Father. It also clearly states if one does not have the Spirit of Jesus they are not His. So I conclude that one has to have the Spirit of Jesus to be saved. But one does not have the Helper to be saved.

Explain to me where I'm wrong?

[DaveW]

You are wrong by assuming the "helper" and the Holy Spirit are 2 different entities.

[19]

You are wrong by assuming the "helper" and the Holy Spirit are 2 different entities.

John 14:15 "If you love Me, k"If you loveep My commandments.  16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever —   17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. NKJV

John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. NKJV

John 15:26 "But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.
NKJV

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. NKJV

In the above scriptures Jesus consistently used the term “Helper” to explain the Spirit the Father would be sending.

If I said that the Helper was not the Holy Spirit I was wrong. The Helper is the Holy Spirit from the Father. Jesus' Spirit is the Holy Spirit who comes from Jesus. They are 2 personalities of the Holy Spirit. Each serve a different function in God;s economy. The Holy Spirit from Jesus serves several different functions none of which is to convict the world of sin. The Spirit from the Father called the Helper serves the function of convicting the world of sin. If Jesus says :

John 14:15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments.  16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever — NKJV

Then only those believers who meet the condition stated will get the “Helper”. I find no scripture that states believers have to have both the Spirit of Jesus (the Holy Spirit) and the function of the Holy Spirit from the Father known as the Helper to be saved.

There is scripture that says believers must have the Spirit of the Father to be alive physically. That seems to be because of His function as vine dresser. But it does not say that the function called the Helper (Or the Spirit of Truth) of the Holy Spirit from the Father is present.

I am using function to mean: the act of preforming any duty, office or calling. So one duty of the Father's Spirit is to convict the world of sin. That function is only done when believers love Jesus show by obeying His commandments.

[DaveW]

If I said that the Helper was not the Holy Spirit I was wrong. The Helper is the Holy Spirit from the Father. Jesus' Spirit is the Holy Spirit who comes from Jesus. They are 2 personalities of the Holy Spirit.

There is only one "personality" for the Holy Spirit.

[Rella]

My bible clearly states that if a believer is obeying Jesus' commands they get the Helper who convicts the world of sin. This Helper comes from the Father. It also clearly states if one does not have the Spirit of Jesus they are not His. So I conclude that one has to have the Spirit of Jesus to be saved. But one does not have the Helper to be saved.

Explain to me where I'm wrong?

You need to be calling a spade a spade...

Is not the helper you are referring to the Holy Spirit?

YOUR bible tells you

"Eph 2: 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

This is the most important verse in the bible to me. No mention of needing to be filled with or indwelled with God's Spirit, Jesus' Spirit or the Holy Spirit. It is a stand alone concept, and all else, such as the being filled with the HS is in addition, but not needed.

Regarding the Holy Spirit... There is one... and only One Holy Spirit.

God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. 3 in one with each having their rolls but are one...Just like a 3 strand rope is one from 3.

The Holy Spirit...
 is that part of the Trinity that lives inside all believers. But He is not Jesus' Spirit, or the Father's spirit... He is unique unto Himself.

Scripture clearly indicates that believers are indwelled with the Holy Spirit... the Holy Spirit moves into our hearts... at the moment of our conversion.  All believers have the same spirit—the Holy Spirit.

 Ephesians 1:13 tells us we receive the Holy Spirit:  "In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit."

[19]

You need to be calling a spade a spade...

Is not the helper you are referring to the Holy Spirit?

YOUR bible tells you

"Eph 2: 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

This is the most important verse in the bible to me. No mention of needing to be filled with or indwelled with God's Spirit, Jesus' Spirit or the Holy Spirit. It is a stand alone concept, and all else, such as the being filled with the HS is in addition, but not needed.

Regarding the Holy Spirit... There is one... and only One Holy Spirit.

God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. 3 in one with each having their rolls but are one...Just like a 3 strand rope is one from 3.

The Holy Spirit...
 is that part of the Trinity that lives inside all believers. But He is not Jesus' Spirit, or the Father's spirit... He is unique unto Himself.

Scripture clearly indicates that believers are indwelled with the Holy Spirit... the Holy Spirit moves into our hearts... at the moment of our conversion.  All believers have the same spirit—the Holy Spirit.

 Ephesians 1:13 tells us we receive the Holy Spirit:  "In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit."

Paul explains the Holy Spirit in Romans.

Rom 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. NKJV

As it states above we are in the Spirit If the Spirit of God in us. Now the Spirit of Christ alone in us means we are His. That is the Spirit of promise. Our ticket into heaven.

If all believers had the Holy Spirit Paul would not have specified that the Spirit of Jesus means we are His. Romans 8:9 says that the Holy Spirit that all believers have is in part or entirely the Spirit of Jesus.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. NKJV

If we have Christ in us our body is dead but His Spirit (Jesus) is life. We have the guarantee of eternal life. 

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. NKJV

The above clearly indicates there is a Spirit other than Jesus in us. Paul says “if” the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus is in us. Which means we may not always have that Spirit.  If believers always had a Holy Spirit not composed of multiple Spirits Paul's teaching here would be false.   

Rom 6:4
4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. NKJV

Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead), 2 and all the brethren who are with me, NKJV


If the Spirit of the Father, who raised Jesus, is in us His Spirit gives life to our mortal bodies. Jesus' Spirit gives eternal life and the Father's Spirit gives physical life to a believer.

[Rella]

Paul explains the Holy Spirit in Romans.

Rom 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. NKJV

As it states above we are in the Spirit If the Spirit of God in us. Now the Spirit of Christ alone in us means we are His. That is the Spirit of promise. Our ticket into heaven.

If all believers had the Holy Spirit Paul would not have specified that the Spirit of Jesus means we are His. Romans 8:9 says that the Holy Spirit that all believers have is in part or entirely the Spirit of Jesus.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. NKJV

If we have Christ in us our body is dead but His Spirit (Jesus) is life. We have the guarantee of eternal life. 

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. NKJV

The above clearly indicates there is a Spirit other than Jesus in us. Paul says “if” the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus is in us. Which means we may not always have that Spirit.  If believers always had a Holy Spirit not composed of multiple Spirits Paul's teaching here would be false.   

Rom 6:4
4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. NKJV

Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead), 2 and all the brethren who are with me, NKJV


If the Spirit of the Father, who raised Jesus, is in us His Spirit gives life to our mortal bodies. Jesus' Spirit gives eternal life and the Father's Spirit gives physical life to a believer.

 

Whatever

[19]

There is only one "personality" for the Holy Spirit.

Paul explains the Holy Spirit that indwells believers in Romans.

Rom 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. NKJV

As it states above we are in the Spirit If the Spirit of God (Father and Son) in us. Now the Spirit of Christ alone in us means we are His. That is the Spirit of promise. Our ticket into heaven.

If all believers had the Holy Spirit Paul would not have specified that the Spirit of Jesus means we are His. Romans 8:9 says that the Holy Spirit that all believers have is in part or entirely the Spirit of Jesus.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. NKJV

If we have Christ in us our body is dead but His Spirit (Jesus) is life. We have the guarantee of eternal life. 

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. NKJV

The above clearly indicates there is a Spirit other than Jesus in us. Paul says “if” the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus is in us. Which means we may not always have that Spirit.  If believers always had a Holy Spirit not composed of multiple Spirits Paul's teaching here would be false.   

Rom 6:4
4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. NKJV

Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead), 2 and all the brethren who are with me, NKJV


If the Spirit of the Father, who raised Jesus, is in us His Spirit gives life to our mortal bodies. Jesus' Spirit gives eternal life and the Father's Spirit gives physical life to a believer.

I believe that this also answers your post. The Holy Spirit that indwells believers is the Spirit of Jesus and the Spirit of the Father.

[RB]

Not sure if I truly want to jump in, doing so more to just keep busy, because I'm not sure much good can come from doing so, but here we go.

I'll start out by asking two you to clarify your statement that have been made before starting.

The Helper is the Holy Spirit but it comes from the Father. The Holy Spirit that all believers have is the Spirit of Jesus.

That is one strange statement, yet I will give you space to explain yourself before jumping in. You are basically saying by that statement that there are TWO SPIRITS in the Godhead and that is blasphemy, whether or not you understand it to be. When God conceived his Son he DID NOT conceive another Deity! The Divine nature of Jesus was NOT conceived, his HUMAN NATURE was, which has a spirit as well as ALL men do.

Luke 23:46~"And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

His HUMAN spirit. THAT spirit was given into God's hands as OUR are when we died! THAT spirit is NEVER needed again since all of the elect family of God (Jesus Christ being the HEAD) will receive a glorified body that will NOT be depended for its survival on blood and breath as a natural body MUST depend upon. 

I wait for you to say more.

The Holy Spirit...is that part of the Trinity that lives inside all believers. But He is not Jesus' Spirit, or the Father's spirit... He is unique unto Himself.

So, according to you, there are at least TWO separated deities in the Godhead? The Godhead is NOT two or three separated deities but they are ONE.

Please explain why you think so. I'll wait.

[4WD]

If all believers had the Holy Spirit Paul would not have specified that the Spirit of Jesus means we are His. Romans 8:9 says that the Holy Spirit that all believers have is in part or entirely the Spirit of Jesus.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. NKJV

If we have Christ in us our body is dead but His Spirit (Jesus) is life. We have the guarantee of eternal life. 

I think that the particular translation/interpretation of Romans 8:10 that you are quoting and using is a poor one.  I think some others such as the NASB give a better translation/interpretation:  (NASB)  If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. The "spirit" being spoken of in verse 10 is not the Holy Spirit but rather the spirit of the individual believer.  Note that in verse 10 Paul is making the comparison or contrast between the body of the believer and the spirit of the believer; he is not comparing or contrasting the body of the believer and the Holy Spirit; such a comparison/contrast really makes no sense.  I think that thought is strengthened and clarified in verse 16: The Spirit Himself testifies [bears witness] with our spirit that we are children of God,

[4WD]

I wait for you to say more. So, according to you, there are at least TWO separated deities in the Godhead? The Godhead is NOT two or three separated deities but they areONE.

Please explain why you think so. I'll wait.

I will let 19 answer for himself, but I feel compelled to reply also.  RB, you present a concept of the trinity which is not according to Scripture.  They are not, as you seem to think, simply three different roles of a single being. Yes they are one; but they, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, are one in the same sense as is spoken of in Genesis 2:24 for a man and a wife or in Genesis 34:16,22 for the "one people" of circumcision.  Clearly the Bible, particularly the NT, speaks of and presents the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit as three separate and distinct spiritual, divine beings. This is a difficult concept for natural physical man to comprehend; nevertheless, it is the concept that is clearly presented in the Scriptures. If you would like to discuss it further, I would suggest a new topic rather than side track this one.

[DaveW]

I will let 19 answer for himself, but I feel compelled to reply also.  RB, you present a concept of the trinity which is not according to Scripture.  They are not, as you seem to think, simply three different roles of a single being. Yes they are one; but they, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, are one in the same sense as is spoken of in Genesis 2:24 for a man and a wife or in Genesis 34:16,22 for the "one people" of circumcision.  Clearly the Bible, particularly the NT, speaks of and presents the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit as three separate and distinct spiritual, divine beings. This is a difficult concept for natural physical man to comprehend; nevertheless, it is the concept that is clearly presented in the Scriptures. If you would like to discuss it further, I would suggest a new topic rather than side track this one.

4 - this is a dangerous game, theologically speaking.

I am a firm trinitarian in beliefs, but I know that to try to DEFINE either the structure or functional differences within the trinity to ANYTHING more than ONE God, Three persons is to fall into one of the ancient heresies. 

[Rella]

4 - this is a dangerous game, theologically speaking.

I am a firm trinitarian in beliefs, but I know that to try to DEFINE either the structure or functional differences within the trinity to ANYTHING more than ONE God, Three persons is to fall into one of the ancient heresies.

Simple baptism of Baptizing in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit is self explanatory

Matthew 28:19  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

[4WD]

4 - this is a dangerous game, theologically speaking.

I am a firm trinitarian in beliefs, but I know that to try to DEFINE either the structure or functional differences within the trinity to ANYTHING more than ONE God, Three persons is to fall into one of the ancient heresies.

There is nothing dangerous about it at all.  It is well presented in the Bible, particularly the NT.  It, like all things spiritual, is very difficult for the physical being to understand.  We really do not even fully understand and comprehend the concept of the human spirit.  We do not, even comprehend the concept of human consciousness.

[DaveW]

There is nothing dangerous about it at all.  It is well presented in the Bible, particularly the NT.

Actually it is NOT. 
Your translation may make it look that way, but in the original NT Greek and the underlying OT Hebrew, it is anything BUT "well presented" or clear.

I will give you an example.  This verse is often quoted by modalists like United Pentecostal Church as a Proof against the Trinity, when it actually SUPPORTS the idea of Trinity:

Deuteronomy 6:4  (NASB)
Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord is one!

[4WD]

Actually it is NOT. 
Your translation may make it look that way, but in the original NT Greek and the underlying OT Hebrew, it is anything BUT "well presented" or clear.

I will give you an example.  This verse is often quoted by modalists like United Pentecostal Church as a Proof against the Trinity, when it actually SUPPORTS the idea of Trinity:

Deuteronomy 6:4  (NASB)
Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord is one!

Actually it is.  Your rebuttal is simply a statement of the error of interpretation by the United Pentecostal Church; it is not a rebuttal against my position.  A rebuttal like the one you have presented could be made on every single issue in the entire field of theology. Given any position you might present on any issue, it is possible to find a "church" somewhere that would disagree.

All you have really accomplished is to show that you seem to be confused about the trinity.

[19]

Not sure if I truly want to jump in, doing so more to just keep busy, because I'm not sure much good can come from doing so, but here we go.

I'll start out by asking two you to clarify your statement that have been made before starting. That is one strange statement, yet I will give you space to explain yourself before jumping in. You are basically saying by that statement that there are TWO SPIRITS in the Godhead and that is blasphemy, whether or not you understand it to be. When God conceived his Son he DID NOT conceive another Deity! The Divine nature of Jesus was NOT conceived, his HUMAN NATURE was, which has a spirit as well as ALL men do. His HUMAN spirit. THAT spirit was given into God's hands as OUR are when we died! THAT spirit is NEVER needed again since all of the elect family of God (Jesus Christ being the HEAD) will receive a glorified body that will NOT be depended for its survival on blood and breath as a natural body MUST depend upon. 

I wait for you to say more. So, according to you, there are at least TWO separated deities in the Godhead? The Godhead is NOT two or three separated deities but they areONE.

Please explain why you think so. I'll wait.

If I am guilty of blasphemy the moderators have a duty to ban me.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. NKJV

When we are raised to life in the resurrection Jesus gives us life. Our mortal bodies are not raised to life, We get new Spiritual bodies. Therefore these scriptures must mean that, for believers, as long as we have the Spirit of the Father  our mortal bodies will continue to live,

Rom 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. NKJV

We are in the Spirit if the Spirit of God dwells in us. From my proof we have the Spirit of Jesus and we have the Spirit of the Father as shown by verses 10 and 11. Therefore we have the Spirit of God. Paul wrote that the Spirit of God dwells in us yet I find evidence of the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of the  Father.

John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name NKJV

The Helper is the Holy Spirit.

John 15:26 "But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me. NKJV

The Helper proceeds (out of) the Father.

Here are some more scriptures about who raised Jesus.

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." NKJV

John 10:17 "Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again.  18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father." NKJV

Now in 2 places Jesus said that He would raise Himself up. Note in John 10: 18 Jesus said He received that command from the Father. He clarified that the Father gave Him that command and power.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. NKJV

Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead), 2 and all the brethren who are with me, NKJV

Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification. NKJV

Rom 6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. NKJV

Eph 1:20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, NKJV

1 Thess 1:10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come. NKJV

Heb 13:20 Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 make you complete in every good work to do His will, working in you what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, NKJV

1 Peter 1:21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. NKJV

Not all of the above state specifically that the Father raised Jesus, but they all indicate that someone besides Jesus raised Him from them dead.

[DaveW]

All you have really accomplished is to show that you seem to be confused about the trinity.

You have your mind made up on a certain understanding.  Anyone who disagrees appears "confused." 

I submit ANY UNDERSTANDING beyond "One God Three Persons" is wrong and in over their heads.  God did not want us to analyze Him.  We will only know how that all works when we get to the other side.

For now we see in a glass dimly, but then face to face.

[RB]

If I am guilty of blasphemy the moderators have a duty to ban me.

There is a difference in presumptuously doing something and ignorantly doing the same.

Numbers 15:27–31~And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering. And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the Lord, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him. You shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them. But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the Lord; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Because he hath despised the word of the Lord, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him."

So, I do not think they would or should.

The first scriptures you used to support your understanding actually does not do so when a closer look is considered.

Romans 8:10,11~"And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you."

Sir, Paul is saying that Christ and the SPIRIT OF GOD are one and the same! This is ONLY true in Jesus' complex nature being the Everlasting Father of ALL THINGS. They are ONE in the Godhead, NOT two separate Spirits! IMPOSSIBLE. What did Jesus commend back to God? THIS LIFE living in a body of flesh and blood.

I'll stop and like 4WD said~let us continue this in another thread. I would love to do so. Also, one more word~4WD so aptly stated:

We really do not even fully understand and comprehend the concept of the human spirit.  We do not, even comprehend the concept of human consciousness.

I even come to realize this as late as March 16th, 2020 when my oldest grandson died in my arms.

[dpr]

I know many brethren fail in study of their Old Testament scriptures, which is sad, because we as Christians are not to forget what God gave the OT prophets to write down (2 Peter 3:2).

The one doing the withholding that Apostle Paul was talking about is Archangel Michael. It was revealed in Daniel 10, which is a chapter of visions taking place in the Heavenly realm with angels.

Dan 10:12-14
12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.
KJV

Dan 10:20-21
20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.
21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.
KJV


In that Daniel 10 chapter, the "prince of Persia" and "prince of Grecia" represents the false one. Archangel Michael is who is doing the withholding. Daniel is told that prophesy is for the "latter days".


So Paul definitely was not... speaking of The Holy Spirit being removed for the "great tribulation" Jesus warned of.

Another Biblical proof of this is with the 'sealing' of Rev.7 & Rev.9, which is by The Holy Spirit (2 Corinthians 1:21-22). Jesus also showed in Mark 13 about some of the brethren being delivered up during the tribulation to give a Testimony for Him, BY... The Holy Spirit! So how can that happen for the tribulation if The Holy Spirit was meant leaving the earth???

No, the Pre-trib Rapture school simply made up the fib that the one withholding in 2 Thess.2 is The Holy Spirit. Heck, they even made up the term 'restrainer' which is not even written there in 2 Thess.2! They created a label for 'their'... idea, just as they did with the word 'rapture' which is not even written in the New Testament manuscripts. (Apostle Paul used the Greek word harpazo, translated in the KJV as "caught up".)