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Offline LaSpino3

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Rev.13:8, the saints.
« on: Fri Feb 10, 2012 - 13:35:31 »
The following verse is widly used among the mid, and post tribulation people to prove their thinking.

Rev.13:8, "And it was given unto him (a beast who came out of the sea,) to make war with the saints, and to overcome them."

When do you think this happened? Is it before, the middle, or end of the tribulation; and who do you believe the saints are?

Phil LaSpino

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Rev.13:8, the saints.
« on: Fri Feb 10, 2012 - 13:35:31 »

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Rev.13:8, the saints.
« Reply #1 on: Sat Feb 11, 2012 - 12:02:16 »
Come on; somebody has to have an idea of who the saints are in Rev.13:8. Is it you, me, the church, Jews, who?  where are all you mid, and post tribulation teachers?

Phil

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Re: Rev.13:8, the saints.
« Reply #1 on: Sat Feb 11, 2012 - 12:02:16 »

larry2

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Re: Rev.13:8, the saints.
« Reply #2 on: Sat Feb 11, 2012 - 12:59:10 »

Come on; somebody has to have an idea of who the saints are in Rev.13:8. Is it you, me, the church, Jews, who?  where are all you mid, and post tribulation teachers?

Phil



To me Phil, any saint is one sanctified, set apart, holy and chosen of God; Jew or Gentile. These particular saints I believe to be the great multitude of the Church that will come out of great tribulation.

Revelation  7:14  These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. I will not go into it here but I also believe the bride of the Church will be kept from the temptation to come upon all the world and be caught up previous to the tribulation.
 
Considering Revelation 12:12  Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. And we find in Revelation 12:14  And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. This short time is 1260 days.

Speaking of the time frame I submit Revelation 13:3. "And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast." Here we see the antichrist wounded and healed before the middle of the week.

My thoughts.

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Rev.13:8, the saints.
« Reply #3 on: Sat Feb 11, 2012 - 18:16:00 »
Lets consider Rev.11:7, "And when they (two witnesses) shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them and kill them."

The two witnesses shall finish their "Testimony," testimony meaning, the truth of any thing; to bare record; witness to the truth,  that the record of Jesus, and His doctrines are true.

This beast shall overcome them. Overcome, or conquer, means to be victorious, to prevail. Used as a transitive verb which expresses an action that passes from the agent (the beast) to the object (two witnesses.) Lets compare,

Rev.13:7, "And it was given unto him (a beast) to make war with the saints, and to overcome them."

The ground idea for saints means, pure, clean, but it super-adds the idea of respect and veneration. Including the idea of deserving of respect, reverence, upright, blameless in heart and life, and virtuous.  These saints that are overcome have some, if not all of these characteristics.

Rev.13:7, uses the same words as Rev.11:7. The words are, war, and overcome.

Rev.13:5-6, speak of the power that has been given to these two witness. Powers to make war on any who make war against them.

War here means, the agitation and tumult of battle; to fight.
To hurt them means to attempt to injure.

So for the sake of discussion, if I say that the saints of Rev.13:7, are the two witnesses of Rev.11:3.

The word saints used in Rev.13:7, is plural, and I guess two, or more is also plural.

What are your thoughts. If you reject this thinking give me one verses at a time why, and your thinking behind the verse. Stay on subject about the two witnesses.

Phil LaSpino

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Re: Rev.13:8, the saints.
« Reply #3 on: Sat Feb 11, 2012 - 18:16:00 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

larry2

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Re: Rev.13:8, the saints.
« Reply #4 on: Sat Feb 11, 2012 - 19:42:42 »
Revelation 11:7   And when they (Two witnesses) shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
 
Revelation 11:11-12  And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12  And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Since the two witnesses spent 1260 days witnessing, and lay in the street 3 1/2 days they would have been raptured in the second half of the tribulation. Since you have me restricted to talking of only the two witnesses, this was not the question of the OP and I'll withdraw now. Come to think of it, why didn't you just ask about the two witnesses to start with? No I do not believe that the two witnesses are the saints talked of in Revelation 13:8. The rapture will include not only those that are alive as the two witnesses were, but those who are asleep also as described in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16.

My thoughts.

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Re: Rev.13:8, the saints.
« Reply #4 on: Sat Feb 11, 2012 - 19:42:42 »



Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Rev.13:8, the saints.
« Reply #5 on: Sun Feb 12, 2012 - 12:27:09 »
I would like to stay on the subject of the two witnesses, and two verses in Revelation.

Rev.11:7, "And when they (two witnesses) shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make WAR against them, and shall OVERCOME them and kill them."

Lets examine the words "Testimony, war, and overcome.

 The two witnesses shall finish their "Testimony," meaning, the truth of any thing; to bare record; witness to the truth, that the record of Jesus, and His doctrines are true.

After I had examined the word testimony, Dan.9:27, came to me as a thought. "He (God) shall confirm the covenant (through his two witnesses.) maybe????    Something else for me to examine later.   

War is the agitation and tumult of battle; to fight.

This beast shall overcome them.

Overcome, or conquer, is to be victorious, to prevail. Used as a transitive verb which expresses an action that passes from the agent (the beast) to the object (two witnesses.) Lets compare, Rev,11:7, with,

Rev.13:7, "And it was given unto him (a beast) to make WAR with the SAINTS, and to OVERCOME them."

The ground idea for saints is pure, clean, but it super-adds the idea of respect and veneration. Including the idea of deserving of respect, reverence, upright, blameless in heart and life, and virtuous.  These saints that are overcome have some, if not all of these characteristics.

Rev.13:5-6, speak of the power that has been given to these two witness. Powers to make war on any who make war against them.

To make war with the saints, and overcome them." The word saints used in Rev.13:7, is plural, and I guess two or more would qualify as saints. So are these two the saints that the beast makes war with, overcomes, and kills? very possible. 

What are your thoughts. If you reject this thinking give me one verses at a time why, and your thinking behind your reasoning. Stay on subject about the two witnesses.

I have more information I would like to discuss with everyone, and get your thoughts on it later. Interesting subject.

Phil LaSpino


Offline Godlovejoy

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Re: Rev.13:8, the saints.
« Reply #6 on: Sun Feb 12, 2012 - 15:08:51 »
I agree with you.  The Two witnesses are more than two.  They are the living portion in these last days,  of the Saints of the whole chosen living and dead group of Saints that will Resurrect in the first Resurrection and be caught up to the marriage supper of the Lamb and come back to earth to rule and reign with Christ.  The Two witnesses are chosen to be a witness to God, and carry the testimony of Jesus, the spirit of Prophecy.  They are the latter rain.  The former rain was the anointing of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost , with the Acts of the Apostles following.  This was the promise of the Father after Jesus Resurrected and asended to prepare a place for them, and those chosen after them.  These Two Witnesses group will also be anointed and do many exploits and the same works of the first Apostles.  They are the two annointed ones.................Zechariah 4:11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What [are] these two olive trees upon the right [side] of the candlestick and upon the left [side] thereof?

12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What [be these] two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden [oil] out of themselves?

13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these [be]? And I said, No, my lord.

14 Then said he, These [are] the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

They are anointed the Latter rain in the last days just before Christ sends the Angels to gather the elect Saints at the Resurrection/Rapture.  Where we will meet Jesus in the clouds to heaven to the Marriage Supper.  This whole chapter in Joel explains this 3 1/2 year time period.                                                                                         

                                                                                                  Joel Chapter 2

1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for [it is] nigh at hand;

2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, [even] to the years of many generations.

3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land [is] as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.

4 The appearance of them [is] as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.

5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.

6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.

7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:

8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and [when] they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.

9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.

10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp [is] very great: for [he is] strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD [is] great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

12 Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye [even] to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:

13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he [is] gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.

14 Who knoweth [if] he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; [even] a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?

15 Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly:

16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.

17 Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where [is] their God?

18 Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people.

19 Yea, the LORD will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen:

20 But I will remove far off from you the northern [army], and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things.

21 Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the LORD will do great things.

22 Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength.

23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first [month].

24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine and oil.

25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.

26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.

27 And ye shall know that I [am] in the midst of Israel, and [that] I [am] the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

28 And it shall come to pass afterward, [that] I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

 
The Holy Spirit Promised
Joel Chapter 2 : 2829 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

32 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Godlovejoy

larry2

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Re: Rev.13:8, the saints.
« Reply #7 on: Sun Feb 12, 2012 - 16:19:47 »
As I have explained Phil, the two witnesses are caught up in the second half of the tribulation. (3 1/2 days after it begins)

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days. (This is during the first half of the tribulation.) 

Revelation 11:11  And after three days and an half (This is during the second half of the tribulation) the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

Revelation 13:5  And there was given unto him (Who? The antichrist) a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

The saints of Revelation 13:8 are occupying in the second half of the tribulation after the two witnesses are caught up to God.

My thoughts.

Offline Godlovejoy

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Re: Rev.13:8, the saints.
« Reply #8 on: Sun Feb 12, 2012 - 16:39:02 »
The same two candlesticks and olive trees described in Zechariah and Revelation describing the Two Witnesses.

Revelation 11:

3 And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Zechariah 4:11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What [are] these two olive trees upon the right [side] of the candlestick and upon the left [side] thereof?

12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What [be these] two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden [oil] out of themselves?

13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these [be]? And I said, No, my lord.

14 Then said he, These [are] the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.


Godlovejoy

Offline Godlovejoy

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Re: Rev.13:8, the saints.
« Reply #9 on: Sun Feb 12, 2012 - 16:54:42 »
As I have explained Phil, the two witnesses are caught up in the second half of the tribulation. (3 1/2 days after it begins)

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days. (This is during the first half of the tribulation.) 

Revelation 11:11  And after three days and an half (This is during the second half of the tribulation) the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

Revelation 13:5  And there was given unto him (Who? The antichrist) a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

The saints of Revelation 13:8 are occupying in the second half of the tribulation after the two witnesses are caught up to God.

My thoughts.


I believe that what you have discribed here and posted is the actual Resurrection/Rapture, and in this scripture the 7th Angel sounds the last trump right at this point, when they ascend to heaven.

                                                                            Revelation 11
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14 The second woe is past; [and], behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.



                                                                     1 Corinthinans 15

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.



I believe this is that mystery explained here.

godlovejoy

Offline Godlovejoy

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Re: Rev.13:8, the saints.
« Reply #10 on: Sun Feb 12, 2012 - 17:32:51 »
                                                                      Joel 2

28 And it shall come to pass afterward, [that] I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

32 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.


The Saints are those that are called...............the Two Witness portion of the Saints are called as shown in the above scripture.

                                                                                    Romans 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (chosen out from other brothers)

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God [be] for us, who [can be] against us?

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that justifieth.


"The called" are the "Elect" and are the "Saints".  God uses many names to describe the same thing or group.  We get confused and make them separate and different groups.  Why?  Because the treasures and mysteries of God are hidden in the scriptures.  They must be searched out and received by the Holy Spirit.  God is supposed to be the leader, not us.  We will be led into all truth.

Godlovejoy


Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Rev.13:8, the saints.
« Reply #11 on: Mon Feb 13, 2012 - 10:47:12 »
When the two witnesses who are giving their testimony, confirming the truth of Jesus Christ, in Jerusalem, and after 3 1/2 years of testimony, are killed, what individual, or group do you believe would be more inclined to kill them? Remember its the beast that has risen out of the sea of people.

1. Would it be a Jewish element; or Jewish leader?

2. Would it be worldly political element; or worldly leader?

3. Or would it be a worldly religious element; or religious leader who would be most inclined to kill them?

If you have a verse give it, and your thinking behind your reasoning.

Phil LaSpino

Larry, you wrote, "The saints of Revelation 13:8 are occupying in the second half of the tribulation after the two witnesses are caught up to God."

Phil asks, "What saints?" The saints of Rev.13:7, are the same two witnesses, prophets, saints, found in Rev.11. Its the same beast that arises in Rev.11, and 13, after the two have prophied for 3 1/2 years.

Scripturally, you can-not make the two saints in Rev.11, different people than the saints of Rev.13. Its the same beast going after the same two saints. No way.

The article "The," is used in Rev.11:7, concerning the beast, and the same article "The," is used in Rev.13:2, for "The beast."  The same wording is used, concerning the saints. They will be "overcome," and war will be make against them.

Rev.13:8, "All" who dwell upon the earth shall worship him (the beast." 
Note "all," Ver.7, The beast has power over "ALL," kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

How do you fit the saints into that mess?

Phil

Offline massorite

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Re: Rev.13:8, the saints.
« Reply #12 on: Wed Feb 15, 2012 - 07:27:21 »
The war in heaven is a war not yet fulfilled. It will happen at the end of the period of great tribulation.

Offline Geezer

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Re: Rev.13:8, the saints.
« Reply #13 on: Wed Feb 15, 2012 - 20:04:14 »
The following verse is widly used among the mid, and post tribulation people to prove their thinking.

Rev.13:8, "And it was given unto him (a beast who came out of the sea,) to make war with the saints, and to overcome them."

When do you think this happened? Is it before, the middle, or end of the tribulation; and who do you believe the saints are?

Phil LaSpino

Quite easy and the answer is from history and not complicated 21st century speculation.

The beast who came from the sea (masses of ungodly) was the Roman empire. The Emperor was also called the "Beast." The Beast that Revelation spoke of was Domition who started to kill Christians in AD 93. The book of Revelation was written just previously. Emperor worship in Asia began in Pergamum in 29BC with the very first temple dedicated to the first Emperor Augustus. It continued to develop over the next 100+ years. When Domitian became Emperor he was the first Emperor to make Emperor worship mandatory. And so the persecution really began under his reign and continued all through the Roman Emperor - with the exception of the reign of Constantine.

The Church has always been under persecution, which ebbs and flows all through history. Today it is greater than ever mostly because of the great increase in world population and the proliferation of Christianity.

Offline n2thelight

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Re: Rev.13:8, the saints.
« Reply #14 on: Wed Feb 15, 2012 - 21:38:16 »
The following verse is widly used among the mid, and post tribulation people to prove their thinking.

Rev.13:8, "And it was given unto him (a beast who came out of the sea,) to make war with the saints, and to overcome them."

When do you think this happened? Is it before, the middle, or end of the tribulation; and who do you believe the saints are?

Phil LaSpino

It hasn't

Revelation 13:7 "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nation."

The only war that exists now will be a spiritual war, a war of words, ideas, concepts, and doctrine. This is why we must have our full armor of God on, as recorded in Ephesians 6:10-20. It spells out the type of warfare and the armor necessary.

You might do good if you knew the meaning of the two beast........

Let me help you out....The first beast is a system(one world)The 2nd beast is satan himself,pretending to be Christ....The end time is all about deception......

Revelation 13:11 "And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon."

This beast coming up out of the earth looks like a Lamb [Jesus Christ], yet he speaks like a dragon; because he is the dragon [Satan]. He claims to be Jesus, and most Christians will believe him.


Offline massorite

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Re: Rev.13:8, the saints.
« Reply #15 on: Thu Mar 29, 2012 - 07:14:10 »
It happens sometime during the tribulation and the saints are all saints who will be living during the tribulation when it gets here.

larry2

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Re: Rev.13:8, the saints.
« Reply #16 on: Thu Mar 29, 2012 - 21:59:08 »

Rev.13:8, "All" who dwell upon the earth shall worship him (the beast." 
Note "all," Ver.7, The beast has power over "ALL," kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

How do you fit the saints into that mess?


Phil


Now we're on to something. Those "All" who worship the antichrist are not believers. Their names are not written in the Lamb's book of life; the two witnesses are believers. These events occur during the antichrist's reign told us in Daniel 12:7 which will be for a time, times, and a half, or forty-two months, and then all these things shall be finished.

Offline Talking Donkey

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Re: Rev.13:8, the saints.
« Reply #17 on: Thu Apr 05, 2012 - 15:56:00 »
The following verse is widly used among the mid, and post tribulation people to prove their thinking.

Rev.13:8, "And it was given unto him (a beast who came out of the sea,) to make war with the saints, and to overcome them."

When do you think this happened? Is it before, the middle, or end of the tribulation; and who do you believe the saints are?

Phil LaSpino


During the dark ages.  The price of darkness ruled for 1,000 years.

Peace

inthenow

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Re: Rev.13:8, the saints.
« Reply #18 on: Thu Apr 05, 2012 - 22:28:02 »
Rev 11:3  And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4  These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


Some say these are more than two people. Some seperate olive trees and two candlesticks saying they are the church (two candlesticks) and Israel (two olive trees)
.
Verse 10 makes it clear that these two witnesses, two olive trees, two candle sticks are two pophets.

Rev_11:10  And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

inthenow

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Re: Rev.13:8, the saints.
« Reply #19 on: Thu Apr 05, 2012 - 22:31:30 »
The following verse is widly used among the mid, and post tribulation people to prove their thinking.

Rev.13:8, "And it was given unto him (a beast who came out of the sea,) to make war with the saints, and to overcome them."

When do you think this happened? Is it before, the middle, or end of the tribulation; and who do you believe the saints are?

Phil LaSpino


During the dark ages.  The price of darkness ruled for 1,000 years.

Peace
There is no thousand year rule of the prince of darkness told of in the Bible.
There is a thousand year rule of Christ and His saints though, soon coming I believe.

Amo

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Re: Rev.13:8, the saints.
« Reply #20 on: Fri Apr 06, 2012 - 11:09:17 »
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.Rev 14:12 (KJV)

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Rev 12:17 (KJV)


The saints are those who keep the commandments of God, and have the faith and testimony of Jesus Christ.