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Elijah returns

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The Seven Churches Re-edit
« on: Sun Apr 04, 2010 - 02:26:52 »
The book of Revelation is a book primarily dealing with end time scenarios. Times which we are still to go into. A time which hasn't begun yet. A time which will span 7 years. The last 7 years of mans rulership on this planet as we know it. But, they will be the most fearful ones ever seen and experienced.

In the opening chapters we read of the Angels of the 7 Churches. These are none other than the Anointed. The remnant or chosen ones who have been chosen out of all the peoples of mankind to rule alongside their brother Christ during the 1000 year Messianic Kingdom reign. These ones are the ones Charged with the authority to preach the good news of Gods Kingdom when we enter that last 7 year time frame period. They preach this work, and pronounce the last judgments of God along with the most powerful miracles and wonders ever seen on this planet during the first 3.5 years of the 7 year tribulatory period. They do this in a spirit of truth. When we read these opening chapters we read the Kinds of rewards they will receive if they remain loyal in their course.....rewards which are not earthly, but heavenly.

But, today, this work is concentrated on the 7 churches.

These are not 7 ages, or different time periods of the Church as it were. As John was taken by spirit to the day of the LORD, and this time hasn't begun yet......it is still future.

These Churches in Revelation depict what is characteristic of what is going on in professed worship. I am sure you can all tell stories of things you see, things which are not in harmony with Gods word, maybe things which you don't practice, things which hurt you. But, hold fast, read on, because your deliverance from out of all these things is getting near.

I wont speak of true worship, it doesn't exist, as True Worship is only re-established before the day of Jehovah begins. And it is established by means of the Last Two Witnesses who are yet to appear. It is also re-established in a very specific as well as limited time period. These Two Witnesses are the ones who will rock the Nations to their very foundations, drawing out the crowds, just as Christ had done, but in a much greater way, and with, as Jesus had said, with works more powerful than he would perform.

These ones, this great crowd, they are not Jehovah's Witnesses as they claim, though “some
« Last Edit: Sun Apr 11, 2010 - 13:25:43 by Elijah returns »

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The Seven Churches Re-edit
« on: Sun Apr 04, 2010 - 02:26:52 »

larry2

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Re: The Seven Churches
« Reply #1 on: Sun Apr 11, 2010 - 05:40:05 »

Elijah Returns - But, today, this work is concentrated on the 7 churches.

These are not 7 ages, or different time periods of the Church as it were. As John was taken by spirit to the day of the LORD, and this time hasn't begun yet......it is still future.

larry2 - Dear brother, I would ask then what do you think is meant in Revelation 1:19 when John is asked from that future Lord's day to "Write the things which thou hast seen," and then "The things which are" at this time of the Lord's day only to be caught in spirit to an open door in heaven to write "The things which shall be hereafter." As John writes of the seven churches, that to me is what's happening at this present time, or the "Things which are" because John is told to send those letters to the seven churches in Revelation 1:11.


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Re: The Seven Churches
« Reply #1 on: Sun Apr 11, 2010 - 05:40:05 »

Elijah returns

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Re: The Seven Churches
« Reply #2 on: Sun Apr 11, 2010 - 13:24:43 »
Spot on larry, exactly...........its whats going on now as a whole in professed worship............the wbts door knockers, they say that the stars in christs hand are the elders, but if you read on, you will see larry what rewards they have...they are not earthly, but heavenly...........I re-did the essay larry......here it is, hope you like it.....

The book of Revelation is a book primarily dealing with the end time scenario. A Time which we are still to go into. And, regardless of what sensationalist Churches, those of the World wide Church of God and Jehovah's Witnesses may tell you...................this time just hasn't begun yet............

But, according to the Watchtower, the visions of Revelation have already been realized in our modern era, and by means of their very convoluted and elaborate calculation to support their 1914 doctrine. They say this time of the Nations ended back in 1914..........if thats true, and Christ became King then (which he didn't), ..............then why the delay for him to act in his role as King? Its because the "Time of the Nations and Trampling" hasn't begun yet......it is still future, (You must read this to know why).

But, when Christ does become King, we are going to see some real and very immediate , and this action begins by Satan's ousting from Heaven......yes, at this point his ass is getting slung out......he's no longer welcome (Revelation 12:7-9, 4, 10, 12-13, 17 Isaiah 14:12-14, Ezekiel 28:13-19).

And this is a time which will span 7 years only. These are the last 7 years of mans rulership on this planet as we know it. But, the most fearful ones ever seen and experienced.

In the opening chapters we read of the Angels of the 7 Churches.

These "Angels", or "Messengers" are none other than the "Anointed". The "Remnant" or"Chosen ones" who have been chosen out of all the peoples of mankind to rule alongside their brother Christ during the 1000 year Messianic Kingdom reign. These ones making up an "elect small group" of 144000.

These ones are the ones Charged with, and have the authority to preach the good news of Gods Kingdom when we enter that last 7 year time frame period.

Rev 11:3-6: And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth." These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. And if anyone would harm them, fire pours from their mouth and consumes their foes. If anyone would harm them, this is how he is doomed to be killed. They have the power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague, as often as they desire.

And I will give power - The word “power

Elijah returns

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Re: The Seven Churches
« Reply #3 on: Sun Apr 11, 2010 - 13:25:15 »
I am sure you can all tell stories of things you see, even what you have experienced, things , practices, doctrines and contrivances of men which are not in harmony with Gods word. Maybe things which you don't practice, things you even find detestable, and most definitely things which hurt you deeply?

But, hold fast, read on, because your deliverance from out of all these things is getting near.

I wont speak here of true worship, because it doesn't exist..........Yet......

"True Worship" is only "re-established" just "prior" to the day of Jehovah beginning.

And it is established by means of the Last Two Witnesses who are yet to appear. The Elijah that is to come and restore all things. To make the way straight. To set matters straight before the day of Jehovah comes. Certainly, John the Baptist did come and prepared the way for Christ the first time, and he did set some things straight, but not all things. He did come, but not directly before the day of Jehovah. So, this prophecy still remains to be fulfilled. And it sees its fulfillment soon, by the emergence of the last two prophets of God.

These last two witnesses, or the Elijah that is to come, they arrive before that very day.

Like Christ they preach for 3.5 years only, and are cut off in the middle of the week, and from then on in, until the conclusion, only destruction and death will remain.

True Worship is also "re-established" in a "very specific" as well as "limited time period".

The Jehovah's Witnesses are most definitely not this revived true church, for like all other mainstream religions, they too are tainted.

But, what true church would prophecy falsely so as to mislead the sheep, treat them oppressively, split up families, and generally do what is wicked in Gods eyes? What God of truth would stand for that nonsense? even using Gods name very name and pretext for doing so? These are points to be considered for sure. Truly, the Altar of God has become filled with the tears of those ones affected by these detestable things.

Also, the world wide preaching work is reserved for a small elite remnant only. And, the great crowd that comes out of the tribulation, the crowd that comes out of all nations, these will be without number, and certainly not the 7 million Jehovah's Witnesses as they claim.

Christ even said, he was going to gather all the things together that cause stumbling so they do not go into that Kingdom. We see this by the use of the Armies of the North, who will once again be used by God as his hired razor to perform this work.

And, if Jehovah's Witnesses are the True Church, then why is their eschatology and chronology all wrong? Why is it that one must be part of their organisation to be saved? Why does Jesus not figure into the center of worship? Why is worship directed away from Jehovah and his son Jesus, and given to a self appointed slave?

And, now, even now, when these last two witnesses are coming, something every one on the net is speaking about, why don't the Witnesses teach this? They claim they came in 1914???? If so, then did anyone see their miracles? Did anyone see the Final King kill them? Did anyone see their bodies on the streets? And, when they went to Heaven, did anyone see them just prior to it and fall faint out of fear?

The Watchtower have acted in a very despicable way, and lied against the spirit, and because of that, over 7 million are still held captive to false teachings.....and this could lead to them losing their very souls.........so, how is this the true church as they claim? They have really demonstrated themselves out to be a false prophet.

Satan really is an Angel of light..........and many have been blinded by this self proclaimed organization of God.........when it is not, and this can been seen clearly from the acts of Apostasy which it has committed using Gods very name, even that of the Christs..sinning grossly, and grieving the spirit, and as we know, this is a sin which cannot be forgiven.

There are many things one can obtain in the market, even having Brand Names such as Rolex, Chanel,.......but are they they real thing? Do they have that stamp of quality and approval from the maker of them?

The truth is, that "True worship" has not been established yet.....................it has not been established by any man or any self proclaimed church...............

But, reality dictates, that these Two Witnesses are the ones who will "rock the Nations" to their very foundations, drawing out the crowds, just as Christ had done. And they will perform this oncoming work in a much greater way. Jesus had himself had confirmed this (John 14:12). Not a crowd of 7 Million, but a crowd that no man is able to number.

This great crowd, they are not Jehovah's Witnesses as JW's claim. Though “some

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Re: The Seven Churches
« Reply #3 on: Sun Apr 11, 2010 - 13:25:15 »

larry2

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Re: The Seven Churches Re-edit
« Reply #4 on: Sun Apr 11, 2010 - 18:15:19 »

Elijah returns - These are not 7 ages, or different time periods of the Church as it were, as some claim. They are not Seven different churches and ages since time of this Revelation to John onwards. As John states clearly that he was taken by spirit to "the day of the LORD". He was taken by means of Gods spirit to this "End Time" period to see the things which were to befall mankind. And we are not in that Time period yet, but it's very near to be sure.

larry2 - Dear Paul, can we take this one step at a time to see if we can come to any agreement?

You make the assumption that all events of the "Lord's Day" or "The Day of the Lord" is future, and you are correct.

When does that time begin? You ask "But, when Christ does become King." It will be when Jesus is enthroned in Revelation 4:2. Do you agree with this or not?

John is caught forward from his day there on Patmos in spirit to the "Lord's Day" which is future, but he is given the view backward from that time, and the commission to write first of those things "Which thou hast seen."

What are those those things, being that he is looking back over this present age from the perspective of the Lord's day?

Revelation 1:11-20 John describes those things given him in vision of those things. John saw Jesus as the judge wandering among the churches throughout the time considered as those "Things which thou hast seen."

Any thoughts on this?

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Re: The Seven Churches Re-edit
« Reply #4 on: Sun Apr 11, 2010 - 18:15:19 »



Elijah returns

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Re: The Seven Churches Re-edit
« Reply #5 on: Mon Apr 12, 2010 - 01:01:07 »
The vision is still future to be sure. John was taken to that day to see what would happen. The one sitting on the throne is God himself...........for he is the Almighty, the creator of all things to who all creation should give the honour to (Revelation 4:11. This is not Christ, for he is the son through whom all other things came into being. Jesus doesn't become King until the 7th Trumpet (Revelation 11:15).
Revelation 11 is my favourite, this is the time of the two witnesses, they come at the beginning of the 7 year tribulation period for 1260 days to preach the last pronouncements of God.............this vision is still future, but near, we will see this first before Antichrist has risen to supreme control. Revelation 11:15-19 is future, after Christ has become King,  Armageddon & Post Armageddon..............I must go now larry, will be back later, in a few hours...

larry2

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Re: The Seven Churches Re-edit
« Reply #6 on: Mon Apr 12, 2010 - 06:07:35 »

Dear Brother Paul, I believe we're running into a problem right off the bat here. May I ask again just Who you think Jesus is? Is He God of very God?

When you read Revelation 1:8 and Isaiah 9:6, do you see that as Jesus being described?

Revelation 1:8  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
 
Isaiah 9:6  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Revelation 4:2  And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. Our Father already has His throne.

Revelation 4:8  And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

Revelation 4:11  Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
 
Dear Paul, who are these living ones and twenty-four elders worshipping as creator?

Colossians 1:16  For by Him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him (Jesus), and for Him (Jesus):

Colossians 1:17  And He (Jesus) is before all things, and by Him (Jesus) all things consist.

Colossians 1:18  And He (Jesus) is the head of the body, the church: Who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things He (Jesus) might have the preeminence.
 
John 1:3  All things were made by Him (Jesus); and without Him (Jesus) was not any thing made that was made.

John 1:10  He (Jesus) was in the world, and the world was made by Him (Jesus), and the world knew Him (Jesus) not.

Elijah returns

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Re: The Seven Churches Re-edit
« Reply #7 on: Mon Apr 12, 2010 - 07:44:54 »
Larry, you are taking this subject off theme, and it is to discuss your trinity belief..........and I its not worth debating,and regardless of what is said, you will still believe Jesus is God..............and for me that is blasphemy.

Jesus is the son of God, not God the Almighty. Rev 1:8 is referring to God the father only, because it is to him that all creation, even Jesus owes to give worship to. Jesus reigns as King for 1000 years only, then at the end of that reign, after all things have been come to their completion he gives the Kingdom back to God his father, so God once again becomes all things to all those that love him, the way it was meant to be in the very beginning (1 Corin 15:28)

He can be called eternal father because, it was "through" him all other things came into being. He is the master worker. He is the Prince of Peace. He is not God, and Jesus never said he was, nor did at any time did he ever seize the notion that he be like God. He cannot be God and messiah.

Revelation 4:8 says Living creatures (NIV):

(ASV)  And the four living creatures, having each one of them six wings, are full of eyes round about and within: and they have no rest day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God, the Almighty, who was and who is and who is to come.

(CEV)  Each of the four living creatures had six wings, and their bodies were covered with eyes. Day and night they never stopped singing, "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord, the all-powerful God, who was and is and is coming!"

(CUV-S)  四活物各有六个翅膀,遍体内外都满了眼睛。他们昼夜不住的说:圣哉!圣哉!圣哉!主神是昔在、今在、以後永在的全能者。

(CUV-T)  四活物各有六個翅膀,遍體內外都滿了眼睛。他們晝夜不住的說:聖哉!聖哉!聖哉!主神是昔在、今在、以後永在的全能者。

(Darby)  And the four living creatures, each one of them having respectively six wings; round and within they are full of eyes; and they cease not day and night saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, who was, and who is, and who is to come.

(DRB)  And the four living creatures had each of them six wings: and round about and within they are full of eyes. And they rested not day and night, saying: Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty, who was and who is and who is to come.

(EMTV)  And the four living beings, each one having six wings apiece, were full of eyes around and within. And they never rest day or night, saying, "Holy, holy, holy, Holy, holy, holy, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, He who was, and who is, and who is to come!"

(ESV)  And the four living creatures, each of them with six wings, are full of eyes all around and within, and day and night they never cease to say, "Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come!"

(GEB)  Und die vier lebendigen Wesen hatten, ein jedes von ihnen für sich, je sechs Flügel; ringsum und inwendig sind sie voller Augen, und sie hören Tag und Nacht nicht auf zu sagen: Heilig, heilig, heilig, Herr, Gott, Allmächtiger, der da war und der da ist und der da kommt!

These creatures, living beings..they are spiritual in nature, as no flesh and blood can inherit Gods kingdom.....they are Angels, most probably seraphs, as these are the ones that surrounds Gods throne and serve him.

Revelation 4:11, God is the creator of all things. Jesus the son of God, the only begotten son, he was the first born of all creation, and through him all other things came into being, but its only the Almighty that is worthy of all praise and honour.

The 24 elders, this is a point that is discussed on exjw boards such as e-watchman...etc, etc, etc........it was commonly thought to be the 144000, but its still a point of discussion. And as exjws, we have set to re-examining the whole of scripture, and we do not believe in Watchtowers interpretation. I no longer have a NWT Bible, as it may very well be tainted, and many scholars names have been quoted (sorry, mis-quoted) and taken right out of context. This is proven fact.

These scriptures below, I have no objection to. They are all true statements. But, he is the son of God....the first born..through whom all things came into being..............yeah....you are right there Larry, people think they know him, but they dont, and when the time comes, and they say Lord, Lord, he will say get away from me you workers of lawlessness. JWS have always been quick to direct this at other people of other religions, but as far as law breakers go, they are amongst the biggest. I do not condemn all JWS Larry, because there are very good, kind and honest hearted people amidst them Larry, even in your own community. But, its the leadership who are at fault, and they have disowned Christ by their wicked and evil works. But, soon, as we go into that last 7 year period Larry, it will be a time like no other, then we will see who loves God and who does not...........and this is no joke Larry. Soon, the last two witnesses are coming and they will declare all things, they will make the ways straight back to God. But, its those of Jehovahs witnesses who will fall foul and perish, because they must obey their self appointed faithful slave. And, no doubt, these last two witnesses will be dubbed "APOSTATES", as all they will say will not be in harmony with Watchtower teaching. There is more chance of people in mainstream churches listening to them and being saved...........you can bet your botton dollar on it. Hope you are well Larry.

Best Wishes

ER

Colossians 1:16  For by Him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him (Jesus), and for Him (Jesus):

Colossians 1:17  And He (Jesus) is before all things, and by Him (Jesus) all things consist.

Colossians 1:18  And He (Jesus) is the head of the body, the church: Who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things He (Jesus) might have the preeminence.
 
John 1:3  All things were made by Him (Jesus); and without Him (Jesus) was not any thing made that was made.

John 1:10  He (Jesus) was in the world, and the world was made by Him (Jesus), and the world knew Him (Jesus) not.


larry2

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Re: The Seven Churches Re-edit
« Reply #8 on: Mon Apr 12, 2010 - 12:52:05 »

Elijah returns - Larry, you are taking this subject off theme, and it is to discuss your trinity belief..........and I its not worth debating,and regardless of what is said, you will still believe Jesus is God..............and for me that is blasphemy.

larry2 - Well your opposition to that does seem to be that which ties you to Jehovah Witnesses and their skewed doctrines. You'll never see or know the schedule of events until you can see that Jesus is God which is, and which was, and which is to come.

My last statement will involve the four living ones. You can believe what you will Paul, but it does not detract from the fact they are redeemed from every kindred, tongue, people, and nation in Revelation 5:9. They and the twenty-four elders have a place with Christ so far superior to that of the 144,000 that will be caught up to God so much later during the tribulation.

Dear Paul, you fail the basest of our rules here as to be posting as a Christian because you do not believe that Jesus is True God from True God. You're adhering to and clinging to Jehovah Witness doctrines and attempting to pass them off as Christian. Your fight seems to remain with JW authority, and not the promotion of Christian beliefs. I pray you wake up to the truth that everything about that religion is wrong; not just their leaders.

6.1  To have a "Christians only" forum, we need to define who can post. Therefore, we need a set of criteria that clearly defines who a Christian is for the purposes of posting.

6.2  We do, however, expect members to agree to the content below only because it is based on the Bible.

6.3 An Adaptation of The Nicene Creed

ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6: 4, Ephesians 4: 6)
Father (Matthew 6: 9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6: 3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1: 1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1: 15-16)

And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11: 17)
Son of God, (Mathew 14: 33; 16: 16)
Only-Begotten, (John 1: 18; 3: 16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1: 2)
Light from Light; (Psalm 27: 1; John 8: 12; Matthew 17: 2,5)
True God from True God; (John 17: 1-5)

Elijah returns

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Re: The Seven Churches Re-edit
« Reply #9 on: Tue Apr 13, 2010 - 07:37:24 »
I am awake friend. But the trinity is false, and it has blinded you like all others............I have no fight with being a Christian, on the contrary, the trinity, hell fire are not biblical, but falsehoods............and I don't, and wont to debate with you on the trinity, as like pre trib rapture which you also believe, this is false. Jesus is not God, nor did he ever say he was.

I want to make a suggestion to you...........that is save your debating, and wait until the last two witnesses come who will declare all things, and if you still want to adhere to the trinity which they will speak against, then you can make the decision as to what you will do. But, the last two witnesses are coming soon......remember, they are witnesses of the Christ.........keeps this in mind, and if they speak against this very unholy thing from Satan..how will you react then? will you accept their admonition and change, or continue on in disbelief. Jesus is not God.
Here is just some literature that shows Jesus is not God. Sorry, these books were not written by Jehovah Witnesses.

If people dont agree with you in your church, do you abuse them? Because I have written on spiritual abusers and the outcome they will receive at outbreak of the tribulation and beyond.....be very careful my friend, be very careful, as you may be going against Gods spirit, and in turn, because of a rigidly held belief, he will let the operation of error go to you, so in the end he cannot condemn you, but lets you by a false belief condemn yourself. The time left is very much reduced.

Is the Trinity doctrine taught in the bible? http://www.heaven.net.nz/answers/answer08.htm

The Trinity doctrine is not taught anywhere in scripture, but trinities were common in Paganism and were prominent in Egypt and Babylon.
The beginnings of recognition of this doctrine started at the Council of Nicea approximately 325 AD. Hundreds of years after the last book in the Bible was written.
The Council of Nicea was organized by the Roman Emperor Constantine and he had the final say on matters that he had little understanding of.
Creed followed creed, and eventually idols were accepted as forms that we can worship God through, and Mary was exalted to be the Mother of God and worship of the saints was sanctioned.
The organized church was built on top of these creeds. The creeds were and are the foundation for many of today's churches/denominations. These denominations are different to the Body of Christ spoken of in the scriptures. This shows us that most denominations are still rooted in a creed and in particular the Trinity doctrine. Most denominations still have the Trinity doctrine as a foundation and this doctrine originally came from Babylon.
The mother of these denominations the Roman Catholic Church murdered approximately 50 million people, had armies and banned access to scripture to Christians. This time is known today as the Dark Ages.
Some relief came during the Reformation where the teachings and authority of the Catholic Church were challenged. The Reformation restored many truths back to the Body of Christ.
As a result many new denominations started up and unfortunately they held onto some of the creeds and in particular the Trinity doctrine.

http://hubpages.com/hub/Why-Jesus-isnt-God-Part-2

Jesus Was Not a Trinitarian ............................................ ................Anthony Buzzard.

The Doctrine of the Trinity - Christianity’s "Self-Inflicted" Wound .........

One or Three? ............................................ .....................................Karl-Heinz Ohlig.

When Jesus Became God .............................................................   Richard E. Rubenstein.

Is God a Trinity? ............................................ ...............................   David Kemball-Cook.

One God and One Lord ............................................ .............          Graeser, Lynn and Schoenheit.

The Trinity - True or False ...........................................                     James Boughton and Peter Southgate.

The Trinity – Truth or Tradition (in two parts) ...............................  Stanley W. Paher.

The Trinity Doctrine/Dogma Exposed  http://www.angelfire.com/pa/greywlf/trinity.html


I've always had difficulty with the "trinity" doctrine and concept. Even after twenty years of being a born again Christian, I couldn't seem to grasp the concept. Other Christians claimed they had an understanding of it but they admitted it was very difficult to articulate.

Robert Ingersoll makes the following comments in Ingersoll's Works, Vol. 4, p. 266-67:

Christ, according to the faith, is the second person in the Trinity, the Father being the first and the Holy Ghost third.

Each of these persons is God. Christ is his own father and his own son. The Holy Ghost is neither father nor son, but both.

The son was begotten by the father, but existed before he was begotten--just the same before as after. Christ is just as old as his father, and the father is just as young as his son.

The Holy Ghost proceeded from the Father and Son, but was equal to the Father and Son before he proceeded, that is to say, before he existed, but he is of the same age as the other two.

So it is declared that the Father is God, and the Son and the Holy Ghost God, and these three Gods make one God. According to the celestial multiplication table, once one is three, and three time one is one, and according to heavenly subtraction if we take two from three, three are left. The addition is equally peculiar: if we add two to one we have but one. Each one equal to himself and to the other two. Nothing ever was, nothing ever can be more perfectly idiotic and absurd than the dogma of the Trinity.

Christians are faced with a dilemma. The Bible says in the Old Testament, "I, even I, am the Lord; and besides me there is no savior" (Isa. 43:11). "Salvation belongeth unto the Lord . . ." (Psalms 3:8. "For I am the Lord thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour . . ." (Isaiah 43:3). According to the Old Testament, only God can be the Savior. In order for Jesus Christ to be the Savior, he must also be God.
Trinity advocates use:

"I and the Father are one" (John 10:30);

". . .he that hath seen me hath seen the Father" (John 17:22);

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the word was God" (John 1"1);

". . . that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me and I in Him"

". . .he that hath seen me hath seen the Father. . ." (John 14:9)

". . .Holy Father keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are."John 17:11

"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily." Colossians 3:8,9.

The Bible has many more verses denying the Trinity than it has confirming it:

"Why callest me good? There is none good but one, that is God" (Matthew 19:17)

". . .for my Father is greater than I. . ." (John 14:28)

"My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me." (John 7:16)

"O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt." (Matthew 26:39)

"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matthew 27:46)

"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." (Mark 13:32)

"Who has gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God" (Peter 3:22)

There are, of course, more scriptures. The passages quoted are a representative of the opposing concepts.

Here is the dilemma. Christians know that in order for Jesus to be the savior of mankind, he must also be God. The bible says so. If he is not God, then he cannot be the savior. His death would be meaningless. So Christians have invented the Trinity to explain Christ's divinity. He is man. He is God. He is both. He must be in order to be the savior. Unfortunately, he is ambivalent at best. Sometimes he claims to be one with God. Sometimes he admits God knows things which he doesn't know and does things which he cannot do. Christians go to nearly any length to prove the Trinity including the declaration that its a "mystery" and we "just don't have the mind to understand it". Is the bible the perfect, inerrant word of God? The Christian created Trinity doctrine and the contradictions which must accompany the doctrine sound a resounding "No"! So how did the Trinity doctrine/dogma come into existence?

The origins of the Trinity doctrine are appalling. Like most historic issues pertaining to Christianity, there was much deceit and bloodshed. Many lives were lost before 'Trinitarianism' was finally adopted.

As many Christians know, the word "trinity" does not appear in the Bible. It doesn't because it is a doctrine which evolved in early Christianity. It was a manipulated, bloody and deadly process before it finally arrived as an 'accepted' doctrine of the church.

CONSTANTINE - THE TRINITY PROCESS BEGINS

Flavius Valerius Constantius (c. 285-337 AD), Constantine the Great, was the son of Emperor Constantius I. When his father died in 306 AD, Constantine became emperor of Britain, Gaul (now France), and Spain. Gradually he gained control of the entire Roman empire.

Theological differences regarding Jesus Christ began to manifest in Constantine's empire when two major opponents surfaced and debated whether Christ was a created being (Arius doctrine) or not created but rather coequal and coeternal to God his father (Athanasius doctrine).

The theological warfare between the Arius and Athanasius doctrinal camps became intense. Constantine realized that the his empire was being threatened by the doctrinal rift. Constantine began to pressure the church to come to terms with its differences before the results became disastrous to his empire. Finally the emperor called a council at Nicea in 325 AD to resolve the dispute.

Only a fraction of existing bishops, 318, attended. This equated to about 18% of all the bishops in the empire. Of the 318, approximately 10 were from the Western part of Constantine's empire, making the voting lopsided at best. The emperor manipulated, coerced and threatened the council to be sure it voted for what he believed rather than an actual consensus of the bishops.

The present day Christian church touts Constantine as the first Christian emperor, however, his 'Christianity' was politically motivated. Whether he personally accepted Christian doctrine is highly doubtful. He had one of his sons murdered in addition to a nephew, his brother in law and possibly one of his wives. He continued to retain his title of high priest in a pagan religion until his death. He was not baptized until he was on his deathbed.

THE FIRST TWO THIRDS OF THE TRINITY - THE NICAEAN CREED

The majority of bishops voted under pressure from Constantine for the Athanasius doctrine. A creed was adopted which favored Athanasius's theology. Arius was condemned and exiled. Several of the Bishops left before the voting to avoid the controversy. Jesus Christ was approved to be "one substance" with God the Father. It is interesting that even now, the Eastern and Western Orthodox churches disagree with each other regarding this doctrine, the Western churches having had no influence in the 'voting'.

Two of the bishops who voted pro-Arius were also exiled and Arius's writings were destroyed. Constantine decreed that anyone caught with Arius documents would be subject to the death penalty.

The Nicaean Creed read as follows:

I believe in one God: the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible;

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God: begotten of his Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, through whom all things were made. . .

Even with the adoption of the Nicaean Creed, problems continued and in a few years, the Arian faction began to regain control. They became so powerful that Constantine restored them and denounced the Athanasius group.

Arius's exile was ended along with the bishops who sided with him. It was now Athanasius who would be banished.

When Constantine died (after being baptized by an Arian Bishop), his son reinstated the Arian philosophy and bishops and condemned the Athanasius group.

In the following years the political foes continue to struggle and finally the Arians misused their power and were overthrown. The religious/political controversy caused widespread bloodshed and killing. In 381 AD, Emperor Theodosius (a Trinitarian) convened a council in Constantinople. Only Trinitarian bishops were invited to attend. 150 bishops attended and voted to alter the Nicene creed to include the Holy Spirit as a part of the Godhead. The Trinity doctrine was now official for both the church and the state.

Dissident bishops were expelled from the church, and excommunicated.

THE ATHANASIUS CREED COMPLETES THE TRIUNE GODHEAD

The Athanasius (Trinitarian) Creed was finally established in (probably) the 5th century. It was not written by Athanasius but adopted his name. It stated in part:

"We worship one God in Trinity . . . The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God; and yet they are not three gods, but one God."
By the 9th century the creed was established in Spain, France and Germany. It had taken centuries from the time of Christ for the trinity doctrine to catch on. Government and church politics were the reasons the trinity came into existence and became church orthodoxy.

As you have seen, the Trinitarian doctrine came from deceit, politics, a pagan emperor and warring factions who brought about death and bloodshed.

THE CHRISTIAN TRINITY - ONE MORE IN THE PARADE OF TRINITIES

Why the original clamor to elevate Jesus and the holy spirit to positions equal to the Christian/Judaeo God? Simply, the pagan world was quite used to having "three gods" or "trinities" as their deities. The trinity satisfied the majority of Christians who had come from pagan backgrounds. Christianity didn't get rid of the pagan trinities, it adopted them as it did so many other pagan traditions.

OTHER TRINITIES
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Hinduism embraced the triune godhead of Brahma, the god of creation ; Vishnu the god of maintenance and Siva the god of destruction. One of Egypt's many trinities was Horus, Isis and Osiris.

The founders of the early Christian church had no idea that the Trinity concept would evolve, be voted upon by politicians, forced by emperors and eventually become an integral part of Christianity such as we have it today. Is it any wonder that its "difficult" to explain?

Is there one Christian God or Three In One? The majority of Christian churches hold to the Trinity doctrine but there are still Christian church holdouts who reject the teaching. We now enjoy the freedom to believe either doctrine but at risk of ridicule if we choose non-Trinitarian beliefs.

Just like at Burger King, "you can have it your way".
« Last Edit: Tue Apr 13, 2010 - 07:45:03 by Elijah returns »

Offline fish153

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Re: The Seven Churches Re-edit
« Reply #10 on: Tue Apr 13, 2010 - 19:02:13 »
Elijah returns---

You say:

>>>Robert Ingersoll makes the following comments in Ingersoll's Works, Vol. 4, p. 266-67:<<<<<

You then go on to quote him.  Are you not aware that Robert Ingersoll was an Agnostic bordering on complete atheism?  Of course the Trinity makes no sense to him and he denounces it.  His understanding is of the "natural man" and not of the "Spirit".  Because HE cannot understand it, it is therefore hogwash.

The word "Trinity" is not found in the Bible, but God over and over again throughout the Bible shows himself to be a Trinity---three persons making up one God.  It's funny how you quote the "living creatures" in Revelation.  And what do they say continually?  "Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty".  Strange how they say "holy" three times isn't it?

 

     
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