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Offline matt1

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The Whore Of Babylon
« on: Tue Jun 12, 2012 - 00:01:05 »
The Catholic Church of all denominations is the most persecuted.  Even Moromon's and Jehova's witnesses are spared such titles as "Whore or Babylon, Mother of Harlots, Antichrist, Idolators....all that nonsense")
Not once have I heard a Catholic use such insults against non-Catholics.
But the Lord purifies his Church through persecution. 

The Church does better under persecution.  When money, power, and easy living get a hold of the hearts of Catholics, that destroys the Church far more than being persecuted.
The Catholic Church is not doing well in  Europe and America but is flourishing and growing fastest in Asia and Africa where Catholics are poor persecuted underground minorities who dont know if they will see tommoro.

So, when I see the growing hatred for Catholicism, I also see a tremendous oppurtunity for the Lord to purify his Church of the lukewarm worldlings who are Catholic by name and not by deed or belief.

 Some anti-Catholics claim the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon of Revelation 17 and 18.
A witless imbecile named Dave Hunt, let his imagination run wild, and in his 1994 book, A Woman Rides the Beast, presents nine comical, brainless, and laughable arguments to try to prove this.

His idiotic claims are a useful summary of those commonly used by Fundamentalists, and an examination of them shows why they don’t work.

 If the passage states that the Whore sits on "seven mountains," it could refer to anything.
Mountains are common biblical symbols, often symbolizing whole kingdoms (cf. Ps. 68:15; Dan. 2:35; Amos 4:1, 6:1; Obad. 8–21).
The Whore’s seven mountains might be seven kingdoms she reigns over, or seven kingdoms with which she has something in common.

The number seven may be symbolic also, for it often represents completeness in the Bible.
If so, the seven mountains might signify that the Whore reigns over all earth’s kingdoms.

Even if we accept that the word horos should be translated literally as "hill" in this passage, it still does not narrow us down to Rome. Other cities are known for having been built on seven hills as well.
Even if we grant that the reference is to Rome, which Rome are we talking about—pagan Rome or Christian Rome? As we will see, ancient, pagan Rome fits all of Hunt’s criteria as well, or better, than Rome during the Christian centuries.
Now bring in the distinction between Rome and Vatican City—the city where the Catholic Church is headquartered—and Hunt’s claim becomes less plausible. Vatican City is not built on seven hills, but only one: Vatican Hill, which is not one of the seven upon which ancient Rome was built. Those hills are on the east side of the Tiber river; Vatican Hill is on the west.

 #2: "Babylon"—What’s in a Name?
Hunt notes that the Whore will be a city "known as Babylon." This is based on Revelation 17:5, which says that her name is "Babylon the Great."
The phrase "Babylon the great" (Greek: Babulon a megala) occurs five times in Revelation (14:8, 16:19, 17:5, 18:2, and 18:21).
Light is shed on its meaning when one notices that Babylon is referred to as "the great city" seven times in the book (16:19, 17:18, 18:10, 16, 18, 19, 21).

Other than these, there is only one reference to "the great city." That passage is 11:8, which states that the bodies of God’s two witnesses "will lie in the street of the great city, which is allegorically called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified."
"The great city" is symbolically called Sodom, a reference to JERUSALEM, SYMBOLICALLY CALLED "SODOM" in the Old Testament (cf. Is. 1:10; Ezek. 16:1–3, 46–56).

We also know JERUSALEM is the "THE GREAT CITY" of REVELATION 11:8 because the verse says it was "WHERE [THE] LORD WAS CRUCIFIED."
Was our Lord Crucified in Rome?  No!  but even if he was.  That would still be Pagan Rome.  And yes the Pagan Roman emperors were immoral bloodthirsty anti-christians.

 Revelation consistently speaks as if there were only one "great city" ("the great city"), suggesting that the great city of 11:8 is the same as the great city mentioned in the other seven texts—Babylon.
Additional evidence for the identity of the two is the fact that both are symbolically named after great Old Testament enemies of the faith: Sodom, Egypt, and Babylon.
This suggests that Babylon the great may be Jerusalem, not Rome. Many Protestant and Catholic commentators have adopted this interpretation.
On the other hand, Pagan Rome would fit the "Babylon," that is, Pagan Rome which martyred Christians, and also martyred many of the early Popes.

 #3: Commits Fornication

Hunt tells us, "The woman is called a ‘whore’ (verse 1), with whom earthly kings ‘have committed fornication’ (verse 2).
Against only two cities could such a charge be made: Jerusalem and Rome."
Here Hunt admits that the prophets often referred to Jerusalem as a spiritual whore, suggesting that the Whore might be apostate Jerusalem.

Ancient, pagan Rome also fits the description, since through the cult of emperor worship it also committed spiritual fornication with "the kings of the earth" (those nations it conquered).
To identify the Whore as Vatican City, Hunt interprets the fornication as alleged "unholy alliances" forged between Vatican City and other nations, but he fails to cite any reasons why the Vatican’s diplomatic relations with other nations are "unholy" or acts of fornication.

He also confuses Vatican City with the city of Rome, and he neglects the fact that pagan Rome had "unholy alliances" with the kingdoms it governed (unholy because they were built on paganism and emperor worship).

#4: Clothed in Purple and Red
Hunt states, "She [the Whore] is clothed in ‘purple and scarlet’ (verse 4), the colors of the Catholic clergy." He then cites the Catholic Encyclopedia to show that bishops wear certain purple vestments and cardinals wear certain red vestments.

Hunt ignores the obvious symbolic meaning of the colors—purple for royalty and red for the blood of Christian martyrs. Instead, he is suddenly literal in his interpretation.
He understood well enough that the woman symbolizes a city and that the fornication symbolizes something other than literal sex, but now he wants to assign the colors a literal, earthly fulfillment in a few vestments of certain Catholic clergy.

Purple and red are not the dominant colors of Catholic clerical vestments. White is. All priests wear white (including bishops and cardinals when they are saying Mass)—even the pope does so.
The purple and scarlet of the Whore are contrasted with the white of the New Jerusalem, the Bride of Christ (Rev. 19:8).
This is a problem for Hunt and all anticatholics for three reasons:

(a) we have already noted that the dominant color of Catholic clerical vestments is white, which would identify them with New Jerusalem if the color is taken literally;
(b) the clothing of the Bride is given a symbolic interpretation ("the righteous acts of the saints;" 19:8); implying that the clothing of the Whore should also be given a symbolic meaning; and
(c) the identification of the Bride as New Jerusalem (Rev. 3:12, 21:2, 10) suggests that the Whore may be old (apostate) Jerusalem—a contrast used elsewhere in Scripture (Gal. 4:25–26).

Hunt ignores the liturgical meaning of purple and red in Catholic symbolism.
In Catholicism, Purple has always symbolized repentance, and red honors the blood of Christ and the Christian martyrs.

it is appropriate for Catholic clerics to wear purple and scarlet, if for no other reason because THEY HAVE BEEN LITURGICAL COLORS OF THE TRUE RELIGION SINCE ANCIENT ISRAEL.
Hunt neglects to remind his readers that God commanded that scarlet yarn and wool be used in liturgical ceremonies (Lev. 14:4, 6, 49–52; Num. 19:6), and that GOD COMMANDED THAT THE PRIESTS VESTMENTS BE MADE with PURPLE and SCARLET yarn (Ex. 28:4–8, 15, 33, 39:1–8, 24, 29).

Forgive us Catholics for having traditions that date back to Ancient Israel.
Traditions that came not from men, but from God himself.

 #5: Possesses Great Wealth
Hunt states, "[The Whore’s] incredible wealth next caught John’s eye. She was ‘decked with gold and precious stones and pearls . . . ’ [Rev. 17:4]."
The problem is that, regardless of what it had in the past, the modern Vatican is not fantastically wealthy.

In fact, it has run a budget deficit in most recent years and has an annual budget only around the size of that of the Archdiocese of Chicago.
Furthermore, wealth was much more in character with pagan Rome or apostate Jerusalem, both key economic centers.

Also, the wealth of the Church, the Meusuems, the Basilica's, the Art, the Cathedrals, are for the people to enjoy.
That is why the Church doesnt charge an arm and a leg for those who wish to visit a Meuseum or Basilica.
In fact, benefactors (Catholic Laity) often supply the funds to create new Churches and Cathedrals.
They do so willingly

Unlike many other denominations, the Catholic Church requires no tithe.  Not even a dime is required from your wallet to be Catholic.
Also, the Catholic Church is perhaps the only denomination where priests and religious are encouraged and often times required to take a vow of poverty.

 #6: A Golden Cup

Hunt states that the Whore "has ‘a golden cup [chalice] in her hand, full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication.’" This is another reference to Revelation 17:4. Then he states that the "Church is known for its many thousands of gold chalices around the world."

To make the Whore’s gold cup suggestive of the Eucharistic chalice, Hunt inserts the word "chalice" in square brackets, though the Greek word here is the ordinary word for cup (potarion), which appears thirty-three times in the New Testament and is always translated "cup."

He ignores the fact that the Catholic chalice is used in the celebration of the Lord’s Supper—a ritual commanded by Christ (Luke 22:19–20; 1 Cor. 11:24–25); he ignores the fact that the majority of Eucharistic chalices Catholics use are not made out of gold,

but other materials, such as brass, silver, glass, and even earthenware; he ignores the fact that gold liturgical vessels and utensils have been part of the true religion ever since ancient Israel—again at the command of God (Ex. 25:38–40, 37:23–24; Num. 31:50–51; 2 Chr. 24:14);

and he again uses a literal interpretation, according to which the Whore’s cup is not a single symbol applying to the city of Rome, but a collection of many literal cups used in cities throughout the world. But Revelation tells us that it’s the cup of God’s wrath that is given to the Whore (Rev. 14:10; cf. Rev. 18:6). This has nothing to do with Eucharistic chalices.

#7: The Mother of Harlots

Now for Hunt’s most hilarious argument: "John’s attention is next drawn to the inscription on the woman’s forehead: ‘THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH’ (verse 5, [Hunt’s emphasis]).
Sadly enough, the Roman Catholic Church fits that description as precisely as she fits the others.

 Much of the cause is due to the unbiblical doctrine of priestly celibacy," which has "made sinners of the clergy and harlots out of those with whom they secretly cohabit."
Priestly celibacy is not a doctrine but a discipline—a discipline in the Latin Rite of the Church—and even this rite has not always been mandatory.
This discipline can scarcely be unbiblical, since Hunt himself says, "The great apostle Paul was a celibate and recommended that life to others who wanted to devote themselves fully to serving Christ."

Hunt has again lurched to an absurdly literal interpretation.
He should interpret the harlotry of the Whore’s daughters as the same as their mother’s, which is why she is called their mother in the first place.
This would make it spiritual or political fornication or the persecution of Christian martyrs (cf. 17:2, 6, 18:6).
This is not how Hunt interprets it.
Instead, Hunt gives the interpretation of the daughters as literal, earthly prostitutes committing literal, earthly fornication.

 #8: Sheds the Blood of Saints

Hunt states, "John next notices that the woman is drunk—not with alcohol but with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus . . . [cf. verse 6]."
He then advances charges of brutality and killing by the Inquisitions, supposed forced conversions of nations, and even the Nazi holocaust!

This section of the book abounds with historical errors, not the least of which is his implication that the Church endorses the forced conversion of nations.
The Church emphatically does not do so.

 It has condemned forced conversions as early as the third century (before then they were scarcely even possible), and has formally condemned them on repeated occasions, as in theCatechism of the Catholic Church (CCC 160, 1738, 1782, 2106–7).

But pagan Rome and apostate Jerusalem do fit the description of a city drunk with the blood of saints and the martyrs of Jesus.
And since they were notorious persecutors of Christians, the original audience would have automatically thought of one of these two as the city that persecutes Christians, not an undreamed-of Christian Rome that was centuries in the future.

#9: Reigns over Kings

For his last argument, Hunt states, "Finally, the angel reveals that the woman ‘is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth’ (verse 18).
Is there such a city? Yes, and again only one: Vatican City."
This is a joke.
Vatican City has no power over other nations; it certainly does not reign over them.
In fact, the Vatican’s very existence has been threatened in the past two centuries by Italian nationalism.

Pope PIUS the IX was kicked out of the Vatican, and to this day, Catholics are the minority in Rome.
Hunt appeals to power the popes once had over Christian political rulers (neglecting the fact that this was always a limited authority, by the popes’ own admission), but at that time there was no Vatican City.
The Vatican only became a separate city in 1929, when the Holy See and Italy signed the Lateran Treaty.

Hunt seems to understand this passage to be talking about Vatican City, since the modern city of Rome is only a very minor political force.
If the reign is a literal, political one, then pagan Rome fulfills the requirement far better than Christian Rome ever did.
But to say that the Book of revelation speaks clearly of the Catholic Church is preposterous!

These same people claim, the woman in Revelation Chapter twelve who gave birth to the son destined to rule the Nations could not have been Mary. 
They say, Rev 12 is speaking of Israel, As if they somehow now for certain.

They are so certain that the Catholic Church is the Mother of Harlots that Revelation Speaks of.
It is Unchristian for anyone to claim that the largest and most ancient Christian Church is the Whore of Babylon.
Scripture says no such thing. 
Only to the proud and immature who do alot of twisting and perverting the truth.

Once again, We have pointed out how many of the Anti-Catholic claims are extra-biblical (no where in Scripture)
This "Whore of Babylon" being the Catholic Church nonsense is pure speculation of ignorant minds with anti-Catholic agenda's.

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The Whore Of Babylon
« on: Tue Jun 12, 2012 - 00:01:05 »

Alethos

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Re: The wh*re Of Babylon
« Reply #1 on: Tue Jun 12, 2012 - 05:52:23 »
The Catholic Church of all denominations is the most persecuted.  Even Moromon's and Jehova's witnesses are spared such titles as "wh*re or Babylon, Mother of Harlots, Antichrist, Idolators....all that nonsense")
Not once have I heard a Catholic use such insults against non-Catholics.
But the Lord purifies his Church through persecution.  


After John beheld the ekklesiastical Babylon made up of the woman and her daughters what did he do?

And I saw the woman (RCC) drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. (Revelation 17:6)

Did you ever consider the meaning of the bold text?  The A.V is not a very good translation here as it protrays John as being impressed when actually....

 

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Re: The wh*re Of Babylon
« Reply #1 on: Tue Jun 12, 2012 - 05:52:23 »

Alethos

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Re: The wh*re Of Babylon
« Reply #2 on: Tue Jun 12, 2012 - 05:56:15 »
Ah I found that post which you avoided.

The Church enforces what Christ taught
In the Bible the Church is known as the Bride of Christ
that is where Mother Church comes from

It takes an imbecile to say that the Church Christ founded is the wh*re of Babylon
Thank you for demonstrating your arrogance and brainlessness

Alethlos, I believe you previously said that you were ignoring me from here on out
that shows how long you're able to stick to your resolutions

If Christ didnt found the Catholic Church, tell me who did?

Every other Church has a human founder, why not the Catholic Church.

Tell me Constantine and you have given more evidence of another ill-adviced ignorameous who needs prayer and perhaps a good Bible study and History lesson ::doh::

"many daughters (Protestants) who are also harlots in the earth."--Alethlos

What a wise and humble Christian you are.  Let's see what idiotic thing he will come up with next ::frown::
By the way, you are a Protestant, you follow the SoloScriptura Doctrine of Martin Luther
You are indeed protesting.  You are indeed a protestant
Stop calling yourself another harlot in the earth
And stop calling your protestant buddies on this forum such fowl names
Have I gone so far as to call anyone on this forum a "wh*re"
Looks like you cant handle losing an arguement
Grow up!



The Counter Reformation is at work as you rightly state - I am showing you its fulfilment. You should be grateful for the insight.

And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. (Revelation 17:6)

Have a look at those words of John "great admiration" and show us what they mean.

Of course you understand John was shown this ecclesiastical wh*re do you not?



Offline matt1

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Re: The wh*re Of Babylon
« Reply #3 on: Tue Jun 12, 2012 - 05:57:04 »
I have great admiration for those saints who shed their blood and died for their faith.
When I read about the Soviet Union I have great admiration.
Great admiration for the tens of millions of Christians who chose to be tortured, imprisoned, enslaved, and murdered, rather than give up their faith.

Stop thinking you have all the answers and you know everything the Book of Revelation says.
OF all books in the Bible, the Book of Revelation is one that many fools think they understand every phrase, and twist it to their destruction.
Yeah some people believe that Salvation only belongs to 144,000 virgin men.
Alot of Good their interpretation of revelation does people

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Re: The wh*re Of Babylon
« Reply #3 on: Tue Jun 12, 2012 - 05:57:04 »

Offline matt1

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Re: The wh*re Of Babylon
« Reply #4 on: Tue Jun 12, 2012 - 06:02:26 »
People who quote revelation go back and forth saying this is figurative, this is symbolic, back and forth, back and forth, and Christians do not agree on what Revelation says.
Nor do you know for sure.
There is one correct interpretation of the book of revelation.
There are millions of interpretations out there.
Which one is the right one?

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Re: The wh*re Of Babylon
« Reply #4 on: Tue Jun 12, 2012 - 06:02:26 »



Alethos

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Re: The wh*re Of Babylon
« Reply #5 on: Tue Jun 12, 2012 - 06:19:48 »
I have great admiration for those saints who shed their blood and died for their faith.
When I read about the Soviet Union I have great admiration.
Great admiration for the tens of millions of Christians who chose to be tortured, imprisoned, enslaved, and murdered, rather than give up their faith.

Stop thinking you have all the answers and you know everything the Book of Revelation says.
OF all books in the Bible, the Book of Revelation is one that many fools think they understand every phrase, and twist it to their destruction.
Yeah some people believe that Salvation only belongs to 144,000 virgin men.
Alot of Good their interpretation of revelation does people

We are waiting to see if you can enter the Word and explain precisely what John was looking at when he viewed the Ecclesiastical wh*re, which is styled Babylon, in its modern day manifestation.

We wait.

Offline matt1

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Re: The wh*re Of Babylon
« Reply #6 on: Tue Jun 12, 2012 - 06:26:10 »
I am the first to admit that there is much about the Book of Revelation that I cannot prove word for word
I cannot prove what Revelation means, I can reason and Speculate
Speculation is the best you can do,
when you say the woman in revelation 12 is Israel, that is pure Speculation
as well as all this Whore of Babylon trash.
However I gave you something you should easily be able to prove
Who was the first Pope?
What year was the Catholic Church Founded?

That is an easy question...i have been waiting....
You do not understand the book of Revelation any better than I do
At least I admit it
But I do know BS when I see it.  And linking the Catholic Church to the wh*re of Babylon is a huge stretch.
For people that have an extreme Catholic bashing Agenda and are willing to sacrifice their ability to reason
in exchange for some fiction that they can use to call the Church Satan's wh*re.
When perhaps Satan's friends are the idiots who are so gullible as to believe all that man-made madness
Do yourself a favor,
Aswer the question I have been asking you or quit talking to me
You already told me you were ignoring me (a while back)
Cant stick to your resolutions I see?

Alethos

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Re: The wh*re Of Babylon
« Reply #7 on: Tue Jun 12, 2012 - 06:29:50 »
And I saw the woman (RCC) drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. (Revelation 17:6)

What did John see?

Offline matt1

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Re: The wh*re Of Babylon
« Reply #8 on: Tue Jun 12, 2012 - 06:34:40 »
the Beast is given authority to overcome the saints.
The woman is the wh*re of Babylon, the Mother of Harlots
The beast and the woman is cheered and contented with spilling the Blood of God's faithful ones
At the time that book was written, many people were finding pleasure and rejoicing in the murder of Christians.

What does a blood thirsty person do.  They shed blood.  Hitler and Stalin were bloodthirsty men.
That doesnt mean they were vampires.
It means they loved death and destruction.

That is my interpretation.  I didnt use a commentary nor do I claim to know for sure what John saw
Neither do you.
I answered the question.
Now you answer mine.
Who was the first Pope?
In what year was the Catholic Church founded?

Answer the Question or stop conversing with me.

Alethos

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Re: The wh*re Of Babylon
« Reply #9 on: Tue Jun 12, 2012 - 06:46:00 »
the Beast is given authority to overcome the saints.
The woman is the wh*re of Babylon, the Mother of Harlots
The beast and the woman is cheered and contented with spilling the Blood of God's faithful ones
At the time that book was written, many people were finding pleasure and rejoicing in the murder of Christians.

What does a blood thirsty person do.  They shed blood.  Hitler and Stalin were bloodthirsty men.
That doesnt mean they were vampires.
It means they loved death and destruction.

That is my interpretation.  I didnt use a commentary nor do I claim to know for sure what John saw
Neither do you.
I answered the question.
Now you answer mine.
Who was the first Pope?
In what year was the Catholic Church founded?

Answer the Question or stop conversing with me.


While that was appreciated I am keen for you to go away and consider the original Greek in that verse so you can catch a glimps of how John felt as a result of what he saw.

Don't rush.... Take your time.

Offline matt1

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Re: The wh*re Of Babylon
« Reply #10 on: Tue Jun 12, 2012 - 08:19:30 »
Your interpretation abounds with historical errors, and is lacking some common sense
Many verses in the Bible mean something different when you read them in Greek
that is why people who know nothing but the English translation should be more careful in thinking they know the language of Scripture
Im glad to see that you are at least interested in learning what Scripture means before some of its meaning got lost in translation
I dont agree with you on your interpretation of this verse in a book so complex as Revelation
If you read each verse of Revelation in Context of some of the others that come before and after, you will see that there is more to that verse than you originally thought.
It takes a man/woman unussually rich with the Holy Spirit to understand everything that Revelation says
What is literal, what is symbolic, what is metaphor, what is analogy, what is a hyperbole,
What is past, present, and future
What has already taken place, what will take place, what applies to our current world, and what applies to the world of the time, when Christians were getting murdered unceasingly at an alarming rate and there was nowhere where Chritians could practice their Faith and be safe.
At the time Revelation was being written, people thought Christ was coming very soon.  
They didnt foresee another 2,000 years.
They knew Christ would return for he said some of you will not see death until I return.
The Antichrist that John was writting about, the Mother of Harlots, could easily have been an institution that was commiting genoicide against Christians at the time he was writting Revelation
When He spoke of the Final judgement he didnt specify when that would take place or even that he knew when.
1,000 years doesnt mean a literal number.
The Bible says to God 1,000 years are like a day and a day is like 1,000 years

But in recognizing the value of knowing what the original phrase in Greek meant is noble
Something many people could care less about
Keep it up lad  ::playingguitar::
« Last Edit: Tue Jun 12, 2012 - 08:28:03 by matt1 »

Alethos

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Re: The wh*re Of Babylon
« Reply #11 on: Wed Jun 13, 2012 - 03:47:41 »
the Beast is given authority to overcome the saints.
The woman is the wh*re of Babylon, the Mother of Harlots
The beast and the woman is cheered and contented with spilling the Blood of God's faithful ones
At the time that book was written, many people were finding pleasure and rejoicing in the murder of Christians.

What does a blood thirsty person do.  They shed blood.  Hitler and Stalin were bloodthirsty men.
That doesnt mean they were vampires.
It means they loved death and destruction.

That is my interpretation.  I didnt use a commentary nor do I claim to know for sure what John saw
Neither do you.
I answered the question.
Now you answer mine.
Who was the first Pope?
In what year was the Catholic Church founded?

Answer the Question or stop conversing with me.


While that was appreciated I am keen for you to go away and consider the original Greek in that verse so you can catch a glimps of how John felt as a result of what he saw.

Don't rush.... Take your time.

Been away chating with the melting pot of christians in the other threads.

Did you look at the verse and do you have an opinion?

Alethos

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Re: The wh*re Of Babylon
« Reply #12 on: Wed Jun 13, 2012 - 03:50:14 »
"And when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration"

So John saw this latter modern day Babylon in its religous display and what did he see?

Offline matt1

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Re: The wh*re Of Babylon
« Reply #13 on: Wed Jun 13, 2012 - 05:02:29 »
New International Version (©1984)
I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus. When I saw her, I was greatly astonished.

New Living Translation (©2007)
I could see that she was drunk--drunk with the blood of God's holy people who were witnesses for Jesus. I stared at her in complete amazement.

English Standard Version (©2001)
And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. When I saw her, I marveled greatly.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. When I saw her, I wondered greatly.

International Standard Version (©2008)
I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints and the blood of the witnesses to Jesus. I was very surprised when I saw her.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
And I saw the woman who was drunk with the blood of The Holy Ones and with the blood of the witnesses of Yeshua, and I was stunned with a great astonishment when I saw her.

Weymouth New Testament
And I saw the woman drinking herself drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. And when I saw her I was filled with utter astonishment.

Alethos, you are using a word like admiration, that isnt even the word used in many translations.
Even if it was, finding a verse that says "drunk with the blood of the saints, and admiration proves nothing".

Your arguement is meaningless.
You are taking a verse that says nothing about the Catholic Church and insisting that it means something that it doesnt.
Protestants, especially those with an Anti-Catholic agenda, pick and choose what they want to believe, and they find a vague verse like the one you mentioned and find everything they can to link it the Catholicism.

The Catholic Church does not shed the most blood of Christians.
Communism has killed more than 60 million Christians.  
When in the 20th century did the Catholic Church slaughter Saints?
It has been centuries since the inquisition.  That was a political thing and it was nothing like the Pagan or the Communist slaughter of Christians.
The Spanish reconquered their land from the Muslims and the King and Queen were extremely paranoid about not letting the land be reconquered, so they sought unity by giving Non-Catholics the oppurtunity to leave or convert.

In the process there were many of atrocities that are appaling.  
However, it was nothing compared to the Pagan roman persecution, the Muslim persecution, and the Communist persecution of Christian.
Those would better fit the Description of your verse.
It is unbelievable that you could be convinced that your verse from revelation proves that the Catholic Church is the wh*re of Babylon.
Cmon really?
Are you joking?
You got to do better than that!

For more than 1500 years after the death of Christ there was the Catholic Church.
No other Christian Church existed.
The entire body of Christ was Catholic and believed in the Seven Sacraments.
And so is it ridiculous for me to believe that the Catholic Church is the Church Christ established?

You would say I am making a huge streatch believing something so unbelievable as the Catholic Church is the Church that Christ founded, but you make a huge stretch in saying the Church is the Mother of harlots from the book of revelation.
Revelation mentions the Catholic Church no where.

You follow traditions of Martin Luther, a confused Catholic Priest who invented the faith alone, solo-scriptura Doctrine, a man who splintered Christianity into thousands of pieces,
A man who hated the jews, who wanted to tear out the epistle of james and the book of revelation, and removed 7 books from the septuagint, and gave himself the authority to do so because he found no authority from Scripture or from God to do so.

Maybe you are the one who is unreasonable here.
I put two and two togeather.  Christ founded a Church upon the Rock.  For more than 1500 centuries there was one Christian Church.
Oh, so, I suppose Jesus founded a Church and it just up and vanished.
After the Apostles died the Church just dissapeared.
The only visible Church to remain was the Catholic Church and some other guy founded that, no body knows who this guy was or when he invented Catholicism.
All the Christians after the death of Christ converted to the wh*re of Babylon, the Mother of Harlots, and came back in the 16th century
Keep telling yourself that.  I would need to fry alot of brain cells to have faith in that theory.
« Last Edit: Wed Jun 13, 2012 - 05:38:33 by matt1 »

Alethos

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Re: The wh*re Of Babylon
« Reply #14 on: Wed Jun 13, 2012 - 05:53:51 »
New International Version (©1984)
I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus. When I saw her, I was greatly astonished.

New Living Translation (©2007)
I could see that she was drunk--drunk with the blood of God's holy people who were witnesses for Jesus. I stared at her in complete amazement.

English Standard Version (©2001)
And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. When I saw her, I marveled greatly.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. When I saw her, I wondered greatly.

International Standard Version (©2008)
I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints and the blood of the witnesses to Jesus. I was very surprised when I saw her.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
And I saw the woman who was drunk with the blood of The Holy Ones and with the blood of the witnesses of Yeshua, and I was stunned with a great astonishment when I saw her.

Weymouth New Testament
And I saw the woman drinking herself drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. And when I saw her I was filled with utter astonishment.

Alethos, you are using a word like admiration, that isnt even the word used in many translations.
Even if it was, finding a verse that says "drunk with the blood of the saints, and admiration proves nothing".


Well done - but I haven’t argued anything yet although it appears your many words form an argument?

Yes, some very good translations you provided - thank you.

What you did is enter the Word of God (well done) and what you found was the word admiration in the AV is not a very good translation, is it?

The word "Admiration" was a wrong choice by the translators and in such a context as this, it should be replaced by the word "astonishment," or "wonderment."

John was utterly astonished at an organisation claiming to be "Christian" being guilty of such wickedness. That the angel who witnessed his astonishment asked John a question "And the angel said unto me,  wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns"

So far removed from the orignal Christian Body was this woman; so remarkably astonished about this scene of the woman that the angel proposes to give him an explanation of the vision.

So the later day Church as spoken of by Paul in the context of last days - -Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. (2 Timothy 3:5)

This Religious Woman who we know filled the whole earth played the harlot with the kings of the Nations and gave of herself to gain power and influence.

Now Matt1 - what religious body does this portray?

Any thoughts?

A.
« Last Edit: Wed Jun 13, 2012 - 06:07:22 by Alethos »

Alethos

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Re: The wh*re Of Babylon
« Reply #15 on: Wed Jun 13, 2012 - 06:12:41 »
"The Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the earth"

Rome always claims to be the "Mother Church," recognising as her rather disobedient daughters, the State churches of the world. The Tridentine Council described the papacy in such terms, stating: "The Roman Church is the Mother and Mistress of all churches." Her harlot daughters have been brought to the birth by her adulterous union with the "kings of the earth." The establishing of the Church of England is a case in point. Originally, it was Roman Catholic, but because Rome refused the request of King Henry VIII for a divorce, he set up the Church of England as distinct from that of Rome, and refused to acknowledge the authority of the Pope.

All State Protestant Churches teach the basic doctrines of Rome in greater or lesser degree; whilst many of the ceremonies and beliefs of the mother church can be traced back to pagan Babylon.

Quote

"During the ten centuries of blindness and servitude, Europe received her religious opinions from the oracles of the Vatican, and the same doctrine, already tarnished with the rust of antiquity was admitted without dispute into the creed of the reformers who disclaimed the supremacy of the Roman pontiff. The synod of Chalcedon still triumphs in the Protestant churches. . . . "


Offline matt1

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Re: The wh*re Of Babylon
« Reply #16 on: Wed Jun 13, 2012 - 06:17:42 »
The Catholic Church isnt playing harlot with Kings
In fact the world hates the Catholic Church for its stance on abortion, contraception, women priests, and condemnation of Socialism.

If anyone is commiting harlotry with the modern Governments it is the Churches that give into the Liberal demands.
The Catholic Church is the most countercultural institution in the modern day world.
The Church doesnt play the Harlot at all, or care about popular vote
By Condemning Contraception, the Pope knew our sex crazed society would hate the Church and sharply criticize this teaching, and many would leave the Church over it.
The Pope spoke up anyway.
It didnt make him or the Church more powerful.
Almost all the rest of Christianity changed their views and jumped on the Contraception band wagon.

There is nothing in the book of Revelation that says the Mother of Harlots is a Christian Church.
Your arguement has too many holes.  You can prove nothing.
The Catholic Church is playing harlot with no one
The Catholic Church has strongly condemned all the Modern Evils in the World.
The Catholic Church is the biggest opposition to the Evil Governments that have conquered the world.
Whenever there was persecution of Christians in the 20th Century, it was the Catholic Church that was persecuted most severely, catholic priests, Bishops, and laity who were tortured, imprisoned, and murdered by the millions.
In the Soviet Union, Poland, Ukraine, Russia, and East berlin.
  Who suffered the most?  Catholics.  
Which denomination saw the most of it's members murdered, which denomination was singled out most by the anti-clerical Government?
The Catholic Church.  Same thing in the Spanish Civil War.
The Catholic Church is playing the Harlot with no one and you are a very ignorant man for suggesting so.
You need to develop some common sense.  You have lost your ability to reason  ::frown::

Alethos

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Re: The wh*re Of Babylon
« Reply #17 on: Wed Jun 13, 2012 - 06:20:18 »
The Catholic Church isnt playing harlot with Kings In fact the world hates the Catholic Church for its stance on abortion, contraception, women priests, and condemnation of Socialism.



Did Christ ever mingle with heads of state?  ::frown::

Offline matt1

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Re: The wh*re Of Babylon
« Reply #18 on: Wed Jun 13, 2012 - 06:21:23 »
John the Baptist preached to King Herod.

Alethos

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Re: The wh*re Of Babylon
« Reply #19 on: Wed Jun 13, 2012 - 06:22:07 »


 ::frown::

Alethos

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Re: The wh*re Of Babylon
« Reply #20 on: Wed Jun 13, 2012 - 06:22:56 »
John the Baptist preached to King Herod.


Who cut off his head....your pope still has his...but not for long!

Christ is coming!

Alethos

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Re: The wh*re Of Babylon
« Reply #21 on: Wed Jun 13, 2012 - 06:24:05 »


Kings of the earth  ::pondering::

Offline matt1

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Re: The wh*re Of Babylon
« Reply #22 on: Wed Jun 13, 2012 - 06:24:19 »
There is nothing sinful about a Christian leader meeting with a secular leader
When Obama met with the Pope, the Holy Father repeatedly spoke against abortion and Socialism.
Your theory about "the Pope mingling with leaders of the world" is idiotic.

The Pope is not in any way approving of the evil things that Governments do, but speaking out against them.
For you to attribute evil to this just goes to show your own stupidity and inability to make sense.
 

Alethos

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Re: The wh*re Of Babylon
« Reply #23 on: Wed Jun 13, 2012 - 06:24:50 »


How many kings do you want me to show?


"Is that great city (Rome) which reigneth over the kings of the earth"


Rome was the great city that reigned over the kings of the earth in the days of John. The picture drawn in his verse was a familiar symbol of Rome even in John's day.

Offline matt1

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Re: The wh*re Of Babylon
« Reply #24 on: Wed Jun 13, 2012 - 06:25:52 »
The Pope is against everything immoral and evil that the modern Kings of the Earth are for
The Pope is not committing harlotry with the Kings of the earth.
Cease with your birdrained comments.

Offline matt1

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Re: The wh*re Of Babylon
« Reply #25 on: Wed Jun 13, 2012 - 06:28:55 »
Alethos,
You have made a bunch of moronic comments
OOOH! pictures of the Pope with world leaders?!?!
Wow! what have you proved?  Nothing, grow up and use that brain God gave you.
The pope speaks against everything evil that those rulers do.
Your moronic claims have no merit.
Cease with your loony arguements that anyone with the intellectual ability of a 12 year old can see through.
You are Hilarious.
Like a foolish child you post pictures of the Pope speaking to world leaders and think you have proved something.
Grow up!

Alethos

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Re: The wh*re Of Babylon
« Reply #26 on: Wed Jun 13, 2012 - 06:29:06 »


I wonder how many hands Christ took hold off?


"And the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her"



  


Alethos

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Re: The wh*re Of Babylon
« Reply #27 on: Wed Jun 13, 2012 - 06:32:41 »
"For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication"

Cp. Jer. 51:7 & Rev. 18:2.

"Wrath" is from the Greek thumos denoting an agitated condition of feelings such as leads to an outburst of anger. This has been induced among the nations by the intrigues of Rome as well as by its doctrines.

"And the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her"

They have received and imbibed, the policies of Rome whether doctrinal or political, and have become completely dominated thereby.

"And the merchants of the earth"

These are defined as "great men of the earth". They, therefore, are not ordinary traders, but dealers in Rome's merchandise, traffickers in indulgences, preferments, ecclesiastical privileges, immunities and emoluments of all sorts; in other words, the clergy of Rome.

Offline matt1

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Re: The wh*re Of Babylon
« Reply #28 on: Wed Jun 13, 2012 - 06:34:52 »
The Pope wants world leaders to recognize the dangers of abortion, atheism, and Socialism.
Yeah, what better way to try to evangelize world leaders than to meet with them.
They are God's Children as well.
"Love your enemies."
Where does Christ say "never ever preach the truth to world leaders".

Come and see how pathetic Alethos has made himself out to be
He posts a bunch of pictures of the Pope with world Leaders and claims that to be proof that the Catholic Church is the Antichrist
Muahahaha! You're a riot!    rofl

You really should have quit back when your points had some merit

Alethos

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Re: The wh*re Of Babylon
« Reply #29 on: Wed Jun 13, 2012 - 06:36:16 »


Imagine the Lord Jesus Christ standing with various religious heads?

Offline matt1

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Re: The wh*re Of Babylon
« Reply #30 on: Wed Jun 13, 2012 - 06:38:00 »
Love your enemies
Earl Christians prayed in Synagogues with Jews
Jesus prayed in the temple with the Pharisees and Saducees
Paul preached in temples and synagogues

The Pope is letting all people know that they are loved and accepted
He isnt saying he agrees with their errors

Alethos

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Re: The wh*re Of Babylon
« Reply #31 on: Wed Jun 13, 2012 - 06:40:35 »
Babylon (RCC) hath been a golden cup in the LORD'S hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad. (Jeremiah 51:7)

Matt1 - you are in the center of madness!

You cannot see at all.

Alethos

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Re: The wh*re Of Babylon
« Reply #32 on: Wed Jun 13, 2012 - 06:43:19 »
Compare...

And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. (Revelation 18:2)

For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. (Revelation 18:3)


Offline matt1

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Re: The wh*re Of Babylon
« Reply #33 on: Wed Jun 13, 2012 - 06:43:22 »
Alethos has proved nothing
No one agrees less with or is more opposed to the modern errors and the evil philosophies of our World leaders than the Pope.
The Pope has been severely opposed to virtually every government in the world
(every Government is for Abortion, contraception, Homosexuality, socialism, secularism, or some other evil)
The Pope does not compromise on these issues
However, we have seen most non Catholic denominations compromise
The people who commit harlotry with the Kings of the earth are the majority of the people out there who are for those evils that I mentioned Abortion, contraception, Homosexuality, socialism, secularism, or any other evil

Alethos

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Re: The wh*re Of Babylon
« Reply #34 on: Wed Jun 13, 2012 - 06:45:09 »
What woman is there in the earth that professes to be Christain, and yet is known by all the Kings of the Earth and has its roots in every nation in the world?

 ::pondering::