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Author Topic: The Whore Of Babylon  (Read 15926 times)

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Offline LightHammer

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Re: The Whore Of Babylon
« Reply #280 on: Sat Jul 21, 2012 - 12:12:51 »
1. Nope none of the Marian Apparitions were about any new special revelation but were directives to pray to God more during times of cultural hardship or to build houses of worship in times of prosperity.

No new doctrines at all.

The virgin aparitions invented the rosary (10 prayers to Mary, one to God).  Which is not new, the Buddists use prayer beads, the muslim too, it all came from old city Babylon. The scapular, the miraculous medal, the idea that the pope is infallible (virgin of LaSallete in France invented that).  And they are full of prophecies for the virgin apartitions are the fulfillment of the False Prophet, just Google: Fatima part 10 and see it fulfill Rev 13:13.

TD

1. The Rosary is not a "doctrine". It can just as easily be abolished as it was inagurated and Christ's Church will carry on.

2. Christians have been using beads for focus during long times of prayer for nearly a thousand years before the the Rosary even existed. Especially Christian monks.

As the African monk Abba Agathon said in the 4th century;

Abba Agathon said, “I consider no other labor as difficult as prayer. When we are ready to pray, our spiritual enemies interfere. They understand it is only by making it difficult for us to pray that they can harm us. Other things will meet with success if we keep at it, but laboring at prayer is a war that will continue until we die.”

Those prayer beads have been used to help people concentrate and focus on God and His wonder when the troubles and distractions of the outside world attempt to infiltrate your conversation with Him.

3. Islam (the Muslims) are younger than Christianity by like 600 years so they would've been borrowing stuff from us not the other way around. However even that is wrong because beads have been used for centuries for religious and non religious purposes as points of focus.

4. The idea that the Pope is the infallible mouthpiece of the Church is nothing new.

...by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the tradition

St. Iraneaus, Against the Heresies
Book III, Chapter 3
2nd Century


The text book definition of infallibility laid out in black and white by a Bishop from Gaul in the year 160.

Want to try again?

Prayer beads were invented by the old Babylonians, it is part of the Babylonian religion.  That is why most pagan religions practice it. That makes Rome the continuance of Babylon the Great, the mother of harlots.  The so called virgin invented the idea of the rosary (revelation to St Dominic) and convinced millions of Catholics that praying to the false prophet 150 times is ok, as long as they also pray to God the Father 15 times, a 10 to 1 ratio.

The doctrine of infallibility was declared a true doctrine on 18 July 1870 after  it was announced by the virgin of LaSallete.

TD

1. Nope that doesn't make Rome the continuation of anything relating to Babylon. The practice didn't even arise in western Christianity until the Middle Ages Babylon had zero to do with it. 

While the Jews never used beads to count prayer repetitions they did use the knots of Tzitzit to indicate when they would pray.

In affect it's the same thing. Christians use beads in the same fashion that Jews used the knots of the Tzitzit. The Tzitzit of course (as I'm sure you're aware) was biblically recorded as being mandated by God for the Jews to wear in Numbers 15:38
and Deuteronomy 22:12.


2. The Virgin apparition simply testified to what was already an established Christian truth. She did not proclaim or determine it for the Church because only the Apostolic College can speak with authority on matters of doctrine on earth.

As I pointed out with St. Ireaneaus the belief of infallibility is old school Christianity.



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Re: The Whore Of Babylon
« Reply #280 on: Sat Jul 21, 2012 - 12:12:51 »

Offline Talking Donkey

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Re: The Whore Of Babylon
« Reply #281 on: Sat Jul 21, 2012 - 15:51:48 »
1. Nope that doesn't make Rome the continuation of anything relating to Babylon. The practice didn't even arise in western Christianity until the Middle Ages Babylon had zero to do with it. 

While the Jews never used beads to count prayer repetitions they did use the knots of Tzitzit to indicate when they would pray.

In affect it's the same thing. Christians use beads in the same fashion that Jews used the knots of the Tzitzit. The Tzitzit of course (as I'm sure you're aware) was biblically recorded as being mandated by God for the Jews to wear in Numbers 15:38
and Deuteronomy 22:12.


God never mandated to pray counting beads or knots.  That is a pagan Babylonian practice... not biblical.

2. The Virgin apparition simply testified to what was already an established Christian truth. She did not proclaim or determine it for the Church because only the Apostolic College can speak with authority on matters of doctrine on earth.
As I pointed out with St. Ireaneaus the belief of infallibility is old school Christianity.


The belief in the pope being infallible is not a Christian belief, actually, the only Christian documented in the NT that taught error in doctrine was Peter !!!!

Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

The track record of the papacy in terms of bringing idolatry, fornication, necromancy, purgatory, flagellants, the scapular, the miraculous medal, abstaining from meats on certain days, abstaining from marriage to the priests, the worship of the virgin with child, incorporating all the pagans feast with a new saint name into the Roman calendar, and all kinds of ridiculous doctrines is far worse to claim the papacy is infallible.  Only God is infallible, the Spanish Inquisition is not an infallible part of history.  If the pope were infallible, he would not ever pray to a statue or bow down to it.





TD

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Re: The Whore Of Babylon
« Reply #281 on: Sat Jul 21, 2012 - 15:51:48 »

Offline LightHammer

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Re: The Whore Of Babylon
« Reply #282 on: Sat Jul 21, 2012 - 19:54:17 »
1. Nope that doesn't make Rome the continuation of anything relating to Babylon. The practice didn't even arise in western Christianity until the Middle Ages Babylon had zero to do with it. 

While the Jews never used beads to count prayer repetitions they did use the knots of Tzitzit to indicate when they would pray.

In affect it's the same thing. Christians use beads in the same fashion that Jews used the knots of the Tzitzit. The Tzitzit of course (as I'm sure you're aware) was biblically recorded as being mandated by God for the Jews to wear in Numbers 15:38
and Deuteronomy 22:12.


God never mandated to pray counting beads or knots.  That is a pagan Babylonian practice... not biblical.

2. The Virgin apparition simply testified to what was already an established Christian truth. She did not proclaim or determine it for the Church because only the Apostolic College can speak with authority on matters of doctrine on earth.
As I pointed out with St. Ireaneaus the belief of infallibility is old school Christianity.


The belief in the pope being infallible is not a Christian belief, actually, the only Christian documented in the NT that taught error in doctrine was Peter !!!!

Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

The track record of the papacy in terms of bringing idolatry, fornication, necromancy, purgatory, flagellants, the scapular, the miraculous medal, abstaining from meats on certain days, abstaining from marriage to the priests, the worship of the virgin with child, incorporating all the pagans feast with a new saint name into the Roman calendar, and all kinds of ridiculous doctrines is far worse to claim the papacy is infallible.  Only God is infallible, the Spanish Inquisition is not an infallible part of history.  If the pope were infallible, he would not ever pray to a statue or bow down to it.





TD


1. I never said God mandated prayer with use of beads or knots. What I said was that God did mandate that Jews have tzitzits (which I documented biblically) and that the Jews did keep trackif prayers by using the knots of those tzitzits in the same way Catholics use beads.

2. Actually St. Peter never taught any error when it comes to faith and morals so try to show some respect. What you quoted from the Bible was an issue over practice not doctrine. The doctrine of infallibility only applies to teaching truth not to doing everything right.

God did say the Church would be preserved from error and that the authority to bind and loose would reside first with St. Peter.

That does not mean that St. Peter and his lineage would do everything right. If that were the case there would be no need for 11 other Apostles if one of them were impeccable.

Try to actually learn what infallibility entails before you start talking about it.

Offline Talking Donkey

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Re: The Whore Of Babylon
« Reply #283 on: Sun Jul 22, 2012 - 08:34:20 »
Try to actually learn what infallibility entails before you start talking about it.

Infallibility means that the Antichrist shows himself that he is God when he speaks sitting in a chair inside a Temple of God. That is what that means.

2 Thess 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

When the Pope speaks from the chair of Peter in Rome, the Vatican teaches that he is infallible like God, i.e., he can't commit any errors in doctrine. When he does that, he shows himself that he is God because no one else is buying it. The Latin phrase is called EX CATEDRA which means literally: "From the Chair". Google Ex Catedra.

The body of Christ, the Church, is the Temple of God.

Jn 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

1 Cor 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

The part that sits on the Temple is the part that sits on the body, and that part is the head.

What a coincidence !!!!!!!!  The pope claims to be the visible head of the Church!  He fulfills that prophecy in two different ways.

Satan is the one that wants to sit on top of the Church, that is why he set up the papacy to fulfill his wish.

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High

God is not the God of confusion, he speaks clearly.  He gave us plenty of details describing Babylon, the Beast and the false prophet. All those details are in agreement and Google can verify it (not coming out of the imagination of man, they are facts of history).

TD


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Re: The Whore Of Babylon
« Reply #283 on: Sun Jul 22, 2012 - 08:34:20 »

jjeanniton

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Re: The wh*re Of Babylon
« Reply #284 on: Sun Jun 17, 2018 - 16:59:39 »

3. Another irrefutable point that the Catholic Church wasn't keeping scripture from the population (apart from the weekly readings and sermons) is the fact that Gutenberg employed by a Catholic bishop invented the printed press in 1411. The first thing the Church had printed to test the machine was (watch out now) Bibles.

"All that has been written to me about that marvelous man seen at Frankfurt [sic] is true. I have not seen complete Bibles but only a number of quires of various books of the Bible. The script was very neat and legible, not at all difficult to follow—your grace would be able to read it without effort, and indeed without glasses."

Future pope Pius II in a letter to Cardinal Carvajal, March 1455

The Gutenberg Bibles were the first of many bibles that were to come until Gutenberg's invention was "mysteriously" stolen. It's funny because after the printing press was stolen a pre-reformers somehow miraculously had the means to print their own Bible copies and preach their own new interpretations of scripture.

Astounding how these same pre-reformers, who just happened to magically have the means to print Bibles immediately after the only printing press in Europe was stolen from the Catholic Church and it's Catholic inventor, proceeded to accuse the Catholic Church of failing to produce Bobles for personal ownership.

Oh the irony.

There is an important piece of evidence that only Roman Catholics would ever DREAM of denying:

Theologia moralis beati A. M. de Ligorio, Appendix III: De Prohibitorum Librorum, page 339 (https://books.google.com/books?id=cp-e0oOIJ30C&pg=PA339&dq=SCRIPTURAE+et+libri+controversiarum+in+lingua+vernacula+non+permittantur,+sine+autem+permissione+legi+non+possunt&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiR-cW71tvbAhVuoFkKHZHKCMcQ6AEILzAB#v=onepage&q=SCRIPTURAE%20et%20libri%20controversiarum%20in%20lingua%20vernacula%20non%20permittantur%2C%20sine%20autem%20permissione%20legi%20non%20possunt&f=false):

Latin   
Quote
SCRIPTURAE et libri controversiarum in lingua vernacula non permittantur, sine autem permissione legi non possunt.

English
Quote
THE SCRIPTURES AND BOOKS OF CONTROVERSIES MAY NOT BE PERMITTED IN THE VERNACULAR TONGUE: AS ALSO THEY CAN NOT BE READ WITHOUT PERMISSION.

Pages 339 & 340:

Latin   
Quote
Demum declaratur, quod legentes vel habentes librum propter falsi dogmatis suspicionem damnatum, ipso facto incurrant excommunicationem, qui autem alia de causa damnatum legerit vel habuerit, praeter peccati mortalis reatum: severe ab episcopo puniendus.

English
Quote
Finally, it is declared that they who read, or have in their possession, any book condemned on account of the suspicion of false doctrine, incur ipso facto excommunication; but he who may have read or had a book condemned for any other cause besides the suspicion of mortal sin, must be SEVERELY PUNISHED BY THE BISHOP.

See also the following - Theologia moralis: Tractatus de peccatis ,de virtutibus theologicis cum ..., Apppendix De Prohibitione Librorum, page 199: https://books.google.com/books?id=HrNVAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA199&dq=vetitum+fuit+ne+laici+cujuscumque+generis+et+status+penesse+haberent&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwickbjd1tvbAhWJnFkKHRG5BfIQ6AEIMjAB#v=onepage&q=vetitum%20fuit%20ne%20laici%20cujuscumque%20generis%20et%20status%20penesse%20haberent&f=false:

Latin   
Quote
IN concilio Toletano 1229, vetitum fuit ne laici cujuscumque generis et status penesse haberent, durante haeresi, quemcumque librum sacrae Scripturae, exceptis Psalterio, et Breviario. Concil. Toletan. statut. 13. apud Harduin. t. 7. Collect. col. 178. Et quoniam haereticorum est sacras Scripturas in vernaculam linguam vertere, utillas modo suo interpretantes erronee postmodum tradant suis addiscendas, ideo synodus Biterrensis, anno 1245 (c. 36.) interdixit omnes Scripturae libros vulgarem in linguam traductos. Idem statuerunt concilia Hierosolymitanum, Mechliniense, Cameracense, et alia plura, quae observari possunt in libro edito Parisiis anno 1661, ex praecepto cleri Gallicani sub titulo: Collectio auctorum, qui ex professo sacrae Scripturae in vulgarem linguam translationes damnarunt. De hac re adest etiana quarta regula indicis. Insuper Papa Clemens XI. proscripsit propositionem 79. Quesnellii, quae dicebat: Utile ac necessarium est omni tempore, omni loco, et omni personarum generi studere, et cognoscere spiritum, et pietatem, et mysteria sacrae Scripturae.”

English
Quote
“In the Council of (Toletano) 1229, it was forbidden that the laity, of whatsoever degree or state, should have in their possession, Heresy continuing, any book whatsoever of the Sacred Scriptures, the Psalter and the Breviary being excepted. Concil Tolitan, statut 13, Harduin, t. 7, Collect Cal. 178. And since it is the custom of Heretics to translate the sacred Scriptures into the vernacular tongue, that they interpreting them erroneously in their own manner may deliver them to their own disciples afterwards to be learned; therefore the synod of Bitterensis, in the year 1245 (3.36), hath forbidden all the books of Scripture to be translated into the vulgar tongue. The same have the Councils of Jerusalem, Mechlin, Cameracensis, and many others decreed, which can be seen in the book edited in Paris in the year 1661, according to the command of the Gallican Clergy, under the title, “The collection of authors who professedly condemn the translation of Scripture into the vulgar tongue. CONCERNING THIS MATTER THE FOURTH RULE OF THE INDEX ALSO APPLIES. Moreover Pope Clement XI. hath CONDEMNED the 79 proposition of Quesnel, which said:—“It is useful and necessary in every time, in every place, and for every degree of persons, to study and to know the spirit, and piety, and mysteries of the Sacred Scriptures.”

4th Rule of the Index of Forbidden Books!

Quote
Since it is manifest, by experience, that if the Holy Bibles are allowed everywhere, without difference, in the vulgar tongue, MORE HARM THAN GOOD would arise from it, on account of the rashness of men. Let THE JUDGMENT of THE BISHOP or INQUISITOR be abided by in this matter, so that with the advice of the parish Priest or Confessor, they may GRANT the reading of the Bible in the vulgar tongue, translated by Catholic authors, to those whom they shall have ascertained to be likely to derive no harm, but rather an increase of faith and piety from this sort of reading, WHICH PERMISSION THEY MUST HAVE IN WRITING, BUT IF ANY ONE SHALL PRESUME TO READ OR POSSESS THEM WITHOUT SUCH PERMISSION, HE MAY NOT RECEIVE ABSOLUTION OF HIS SINS UNLESS HE FIRST DELIVER UP THE BIBLES TO THE ORDINARY.

Pope Clement XI, Unigenitus, ex-cathedra and INFALLIBLE!

Condemned Proposition 79! It is useful and necessary in every time, in every place, and for every degree of persons, to study and to know the spirit, and piety, and mysteries of the Sacred Scriptures - CONDEMNED

It is neither the duty of Roman Catholics to palter, nor to procrastinate, nor mitigate the Decrees of the Holy Mother Church to his use through deft cowardly evasions and/or cavalier dismissal: but on the contrary to strictly obey them in their plain and straightforward face-value meaning!

"For obedience is better than sacrifices: and to hearken rather than to offer the fat or rams. Because it is like the sin of witchcraft, to rebel: and like the crime of idolatry, to refuse to obey" - 1 Samuel 15:22/23.

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Re: The wh*re Of Babylon
« Reply #284 on: Sun Jun 17, 2018 - 16:59:39 »



Offline dpr

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Re: The Whore Of Babylon
« Reply #285 on: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 15:48:12 »
The assigning of the Rev.17 Babylon Harlot to the Roman Church is a result of old hatreds. The Jews in Europe claim to have been persecuted by the Roman Church back in history, and those of the Reformation also fought (literally) against the Roman Church's armies. Many of the Reformers thought the pope was the Antichrist because of the persecutions by the Roman Church upon Protestants.

My ancestry goes back to the French Huguenots, which were the first French Protestants that the Roman Church warred against. Most of the Huguenots left France because of it. My ancestors came to the American colonies.

The Masonic Lodges in Europe also involved a falling out against the Roman Church, as the pope had the head leader of the Knights Templar order executed, along with some of their followers. Then there's the Communists of course, as they have attempted assassinating the pope back in history.

So which of those factions would most likely support the idea of the Catholic Church being the endtime Babylon Harlot? All of them most likely, mostly for political reasons.

But in reality per God's Word, our Lord Jesus revealed what 'city' is the Rev.17 Babylon Harlot for the end of this world...

Rev 11:8
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
KJV


That is about the city of Jerusalem.

And note that is comparing that "great city" of Jerusalem to the old pagan immoral city of Sodom, and the old pagan nation of Egypt.

We are even told about the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit (i.e., Satan, the dragon) who will kill God's two witnesses there in Jerusalem, in our near future:

Rev 11:7
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
KJV




Offline lecoope

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Re: The Whore Of Babylon
« Reply #286 on: Wed Sep 05, 2018 - 14:27:48 »
If we just take what John wrote, without preconceptions, he is talking about the "great city" of Jerusalem. It can be no other. But in particular, during the time that the Beast and False Prophet are deceiving the ENTIRE WORLD from that city. Sorry, folks, but the Catholic church has not come close to deceiving the entire world - and in spite of what many say, there are born again people attending Catholic churches around the world. In fact, not even Islam has deceived the entire world.


 

     
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