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Offline larry2

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The Woman & Her Child
« on: Sun Mar 18, 2018 - 10:39:09 »
Who, what, and when are these things hereafter?   ::smile::

Rev 4:1  After this (after what?) I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Rev 12:1  And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars.
Rev 12:5  And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Rev 12:17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

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The Woman & Her Child
« on: Sun Mar 18, 2018 - 10:39:09 »

Offline soterion

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Re: The Woman & Her Child
« Reply #1 on: Sun Mar 18, 2018 - 11:25:21 »
larry2,

It will help to look at a few other verses in Revelation first.

Revelation 1:1,3.
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John...Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.

Revelation 22:6, 10.
And he said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place"...And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near."

Revelation is bookmarked with the words, "...show His servants what must soon take place..." and, "...for the time is near." It still amazes me that folks want to apply a far distant future interpretation to the book.  ::frown::

Anyway, the things that must be hereafter you are asking about have to fit within "must soon take place" and "the time is near." Revelation 1:19 is about things that are and things that will take place (shortly, at hand) after these things. These are the things that John is being shown and is being told to write about. Whatever these things are that are hereafter, I would put their fulfillment at least within the lifetime of many of those in the seven churches who received the book.

Revelation 12 actually deals with past events: the incarnation of Christ from Jewish lineage (the woman being the people of Israel), His ascension to heaven, Satan defeated so that Christ can take His place on the throne, and the present reign of Christ and salvation come to man. The chapter finishes with Satan making war with the faithful. Of course, the devil continues to tempt and strive for the fall of God's people. That aspect of the message continues on.

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Re: The Woman & Her Child
« Reply #1 on: Sun Mar 18, 2018 - 11:25:21 »

Offline larry2

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Re: The Woman & Her Child
« Reply #2 on: Sun Mar 18, 2018 - 12:16:46 »
larry2, It will help to look at a few other verses in Revelation first.

Revelation 1:1,3.
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John...Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.

Revelation 22:6, 10.
And he said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place"...And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near."

It still amazes me that folks want to apply a far distant future interpretation to the book.  ::frown::
Hi @soterion, and thanks for your reply. I sure got a kick out of your ::frown:: Oh the humanity.  ::smile::
Please allow me to introduce you to when those things which must soon take place of Rev 1:1.
Rev 1:10  I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day. And from that future time Jesus' angel shows John events to occur in three viewpoints: Rev 1:19  Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter. The things we'll be examining are what happens when Jesus takes His own throne given Him in Rev 4:2, the real beginning of that great Day of the Lord.
Am I wrong again?  ::preachit::

 
 

Offline soterion

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Re: The Woman & Her Child
« Reply #3 on: Sun Mar 18, 2018 - 12:37:04 »
The things we'll be examining are what happens when Jesus takes His own throne given Him in Rev 4:2, the real beginning of that great Day of the Lord.

He ascended to His throne 2,000 years ago. Look again at Revelation 12:5. It is the throne promised to the Messiah from Old Testament prophecy. It is the throne of David.

Acts 2:29-32, 34-36.
Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.

This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses...For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, ‘The Lord said to my Lord,Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.’ Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”

The resurrection and ascension of Christ is the fulfillment of the promise to seat the Messiah on David's throne. It is the only throne He will sit on until the time comes when He defeats death and the kingdom is turned over to the father (1 Corinthians 15:22-28).

Everything that is to come, from Revelation's point of view, still has to take place within the guidelines of, "must soon take place" and "the time is near." That should not be difficult to understand and accept since Christ has been enthroned for 2,000 years, if that is your qualifier for when the things to come are to take place. ::wink::

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Re: The Woman & Her Child
« Reply #3 on: Sun Mar 18, 2018 - 12:37:04 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline larry2

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Re: The Woman & Her Child
« Reply #4 on: Sun Mar 18, 2018 - 14:50:27 »
The things we'll be examining are what happens when Jesus takes His own throne given Him in Rev 4:2, the real beginning of that great Day of the Lord.

He ascended to His throne 2,000 years ago. Look again at Revelation 12:5. It is the throne promised to the Messiah from Old Testament prophecy. It is the throne of David.

This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses...For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, ‘The Lord said to my Lord,Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.’ Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”

Everything that is to come, from Revelation's point of view, still has to take place within the guidelines of, "must soon take place" and "the time is near." That should not be difficult to understand and accept since Christ has been enthroned for 2,000 years, if that is your qualifier for when the things to come are to take place. ::wink::
Hi there again. I'm sure you realize that the book of Revelation was written far after Jesus was in heaven, and He is described as walking among the candlesticks which are the churches at this time as our intercessor and judge? In Rev 4:2 Jesus takes the power given Him back in Mat 28:18.

In Rev 1:11  Jesus is saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last (Everything from this point will be under Jesus except the Father Himself - 1 Cor 15:27): and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; . . .

You seem to be suggesting that the Man Child of Rev 12:5 is Jesus, and then only on an earthly throne of David. Do you know what the Lord's day is? Do you realize that Jesus was not caught up immediately at birth as the Man Child of Rev 12:5 is described?
Rev 12:5  And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Rev 12:6  And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. (That's the second half of the tribulation.)

If Jesus is in the position of King of kings, why is the nations ruling in usurpation at this present time?

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Re: The Woman & Her Child
« Reply #4 on: Sun Mar 18, 2018 - 14:50:27 »



Offline soterion

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Re: The Woman & Her Child
« Reply #5 on: Sun Mar 18, 2018 - 17:59:26 »
Hi there again. I'm sure you realize that the book of Revelation was written far after Jesus was in heaven, and He is described as walking among the candlesticks which are the churches at this time as our intercessor and judge? In Rev 4:2 Jesus takes the power given Him back in Mat 28:18.

You are reading a whole lot into Rev 4:2 that it doesn’t say. It says nothing about the One sitting on it just now beginning to reign. I gather that He has always and will always be there.

As far as Matthew 28:28 is concerned, Jesus received that authority when He said it. Peter confirmed it in Acts 2:36, after saying that Christ has ascended to the throne of David, God’s throne. Per His enthronement He has all authority. Yes, He has been ruling for some time before Revelation was written.

Notice the present reign of the King in Ephesians 1:20-23.
which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

Also, you seem to have a problem with Jesus being described as sitting on the throne and walking among the candlesticks at the same time. Then, you must have a problem with Him being at the right hand of God but also present with us in our daily lives and in our worship of Him at the same time. You do realize that all of this is figurative language, right? Jesus rules over the kingdom as King (judge) and High Priest (intercessor) while on His throne. Also, He is in and with His people always.

The throne of God is with His people. The term “throne” is often used to refer to reign or authority. It doesn’t refer to an actual chair. Consider Matthew 23:1. The Jewish rulers had “seated themselves in the chair of Moses.” It was not a physical chair. The rulers had assumed to themselves the authority of Moses.

Likewise, the throne of God is not a physical chair in some distant location. It is the rule of Christ in His people. Psalm 110 says He will rule in the midst of His enemies. How can that be if He is far off and removed from the earth because of some high and lofty throne room?

Figurative language...

Offline soterion

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Re: The Woman & Her Child
« Reply #6 on: Sun Mar 18, 2018 - 18:04:20 »
In Rev 1:11  Jesus is saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last (Everything from this point will be under Jesus except the Father Himself - 1 Cor 15:27): and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; . . .

Yes, Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, who is and who was and who is to come. Jesus is Almighty God. As for everything being under His feet from Rev 1:8 forward, that is incorrect. Jesus will rule until everything is under His feet, then He turns it all over to the Father. The last enemy to be conquered is death, and that has not happened yet. That has not happened in Revelation. Therefore, Jesus is still ruling as King and Priest.

Per the quote from you above, you are reading Rev with the idea that everything after Rev 1:8 is after everything is under Christ’s feet, according to what 1 Cor 15:27 is talking about. That is a gross misunderstanding of all this scripture.

Offline soterion

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Re: The Woman & Her Child
« Reply #7 on: Sun Mar 18, 2018 - 18:09:23 »
You seem to be suggesting that the Man Child of Rev 12:5 is Jesus, and then only on an earthly throne of David. Do you know what the Lord's day is? Do you realize that Jesus was not caught up immediately at birth as the Man Child of Rev 12:5 is described?
Rev 12:5  And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Rev 12:6  And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. (That's the second half of the tribulation.)

No. I am suggesting that the man child of Rev 12:5 is Jesus and that He ascended to the throne of David, which is God’s throne. Consider whose throne it was for David to sit on as king (whose authority it was to give David kingly authority):

1 Kings 1:13.
“Go at once to King David and say to him, ‘Have you not, my lord, O king, sworn to your maidservant, saying, “Surely Solomon your son shall be king after me, and he shall sit on my throne”? Why then has Adonijah become king?’

1 Chronicles 29:23.
Then Solomon sat on the throne of the Lord as king instead of David his father; and he prospered, and all Israel obeyed him.

In 1 Chronicles 17:11-14 God promises David that his son shall sit on the throne over the kingdom. This is a repeat of the promise given in 2 Samuel 7:12-17. In both cases the throne and the kingdom are the Messiah's. The throne (authority) of the kingdom belongs to God and He gives it to whomever He wishes. The throne David sat on was the Lord's throne as it was His to give.

Rev 12:5 does not mention the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. The pertinent points given to John to write down is His incarnation and then His ascension and enthronement. The present reign of Jesus is what is being emphasized.

Offline soterion

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Re: The Woman & Her Child
« Reply #8 on: Sun Mar 18, 2018 - 18:12:50 »
If Jesus is in the position of King of kings, why is the nations ruling in usurpation at this present time?

If the total and absolute subjugation of the nations has to be the proof that Christ rules, then He never will, because that will never happen (as you are looking for it). Read Psalm 110 again. He will rule in the midst of His enemies. The enemies of God’s people continue while Jesus conquers hearts, one at a time. The time will come when the last enemy, death, will be conquered. Then comes the end, when He hands it over to the Father.

Also, keep in mind that the apparent chaos of the world is one reason atheists use to say there is no God. If there is a God, then things would be better, according to that line of thinking. But God does not rule as we would have Him rule. His battle is not against flesh and blood, but against those powers that would keep people from hearing and believing the gospel. God will deal with this physical realm in time, when the end comes and Jesus hands over the kingdom to the Father.

Besides, if Jesus is not yet enthroned and ruling as King of kings, then we have no salvation. Note Rev 12:10-11.

And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death.

His salvation and Kingship go hand in hand. If you reject one, you reject the other.

Offline larry2

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Re: The Woman & Her Child
« Reply #9 on: Sun Mar 18, 2018 - 21:28:35 »
I am suggesting that the man child of Rev 12:5 is Jesus and that He ascended to the throne of David, which is God’s throne. Consider whose throne it was for David to sit on as king (whose authority it was to give David kingly authority):
How do you figure that Jesus took over the moment He was resurrected? Even in Revelation Jesus is not seen sitting in power until our Father has put all things under Him

1 Kings 1:13.
“Go at once to King David and say to him, ‘Have you not, my lord, O king, sworn to your maidservant, saying, “Surely Solomon your son shall be king after me, and he shall sit on my throne”? Why then has Adonijah become king?’

1 Chronicles 29:23.
Then Solomon sat on the throne of the Lord as king instead of David his father; and he prospered, and all Israel obeyed him.

In 1 Chronicles 17:11-14 God promises David that his son shall sit on the throne over the kingdom. This is a repeat of the promise given in 2 Samuel 7:12-17. In both cases the throne and the kingdom are the Messiah's. The throne (authority) of the kingdom belongs to God and He gives it to whomever He wishes. The throne David sat on was the Lord's throne as it was His to give.

Rev 12:5 does not mention the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. The pertinent points given to John to write down is His incarnation and then His ascension and enthronement. The present reign of Jesus is what is being emphasized.

From your reply, am I to understand that even though Rev 4:1 says that Jesus’ throne will be set hereafter from that time of the Lord’s Day, you are saying the Man Child of Rev 12:5 refers to Jesus?

To me David’s throne was a place of rule over Israel, and Jesus’ throne will represent rule not only over the Church, but Israel too during the millennium.

Where will Jesus rule from? Heaven? Last question for the moment, are you teaching from the perspective of Progressive Dispensationalists? Thanks.


Offline soterion

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Re: The Woman & Her Child
« Reply #10 on: Sun Mar 18, 2018 - 22:09:47 »
From your reply, am I to understand that even though Rev 4:1 says that Jesus’ throne will be set hereafter from that time of the Lord’s Day, you are saying the Man Child of Rev 12:5 refers to Jesus?

To me David’s throne was a place of rule over Israel, and Jesus’ throne will represent rule not only over the Church, but Israel too during the millennium.

Where will Jesus rule from? Heaven? Last question for the moment, are you teaching from the perspective of Progressive Dispensationalists? Thanks.


Have you read Revelation 4:1? What translation are you using? I don't see anything even remotely like what you are saying.  ???

Yes, the man child of 12:5 is Jesus.

Regarding the throne, Psalm 2:1-2 is quoted in Acts 4:25-26 telling us that the prophecy found there is fulfilled in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. The prophecy goes on to say that God laughs at the attempts of man to stop His purpose in the Messiah. The Messiah would be established as King on Zion and would receive the nations as His inheritance and the ends of the earth as His possession.

Right in the middle of all that is Psalm 2:7. That passage is quoted three times in the New Testament, referring to the exaltation of the name of Christ and the fulfillment of the promise God made to the fathers. In Acts 13:17-39 (see v.33) Paul makes exactly the same point that Peter made in Acts 2 about the resurrection of Christ and the enthronement of Jesus as King. In Hebrews 1:5 it was in His being exalted above all that Jesus received the blessing found in Psalm 2:7. The words do not apply to His virgin birth or to His resurrection. In Hebrews 5:5-6 the writer links two Messianic King Psalms (Psalm 2:7 and Psalm 110:4) together to apply to Jesus now.

All of that, plus 2 Samuel 7:12-17, links Jesus to the promise that the Messiah will come and sit on the throne of David to rule over the kingdom of God. The promise is fulfilled in Christ's resurrection, ascension and enthronement and He presently rules over the people of God. The people collectively are called the church, and in the church there is no Jew or Gentile. God has brought both groups together in one body. Israel, as a nation, is not a people of God. Only those washed by the blood of the lamb and added to the church are God's people now, unified by a common faith and a common destiny. Those outside the church are not God's people and are not saved.

Never heard of Progressive Dispensationalism. I guess there has to be a label for everything. I reject typical Millennial and Dispensational teachings.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: The Woman & Her Child
« Reply #11 on: Mon Mar 19, 2018 - 00:41:00 »
Perhaps the focus on a "throne" and the "rule" of a "king" for Christ has more to do with Christ being established at His ascension as the ultimate HIGH PRIEST that superseded all other high priests before Him.  More often than not, the term "kings of the earth" in scripture refers to the HIGH PRIESTS of the land of Israel.  For Christ to be established as a "king" on His throne in heaven after His ascension was for Him to be installed as our deathless High Priest after the order of Melchizedek, and our mediator between God and mankind.  Under OT Mosaic law, the high priest was not only the representative of God's people at the altar, but he was also the judge providing the final decision on matters of civil dispute between fellow Israelites (Deut. 17:8-12).

God's throne in heaven is the mercy seat, on which Christ reigns supreme.  In this role of High Priest, Jesus is "king", or the high priest over all the nations  - not just the OT nation of Israel that once enjoyed His particular favor when He revealed His laws to them.  This is true regardless of what governing leader may be operating in any given country you could name.  Matthew 19:28 tells us that Christ would "sit on the throne of His glory" in the "regeneration" - the time when He would be restored to life again in His resurrection.  This "throne" was NOT being set up for the first time in Rev. 4:1 - John was only catching a vision of what was an already-established fact before then. 


larry2  -  I hope you won't let the term "child" trip you up when it is used in Revelation 12:5.  I believe with soterion and many others that this "child" is indeed Jesus Christ.  When it talks about "Her child" being caught up to God and His throne, it doesn't mean that Jesus was a very young human child at the time when this "catching up" took place.  Try looking at a comparable example in Acts 4:27 when Peter called Jesus God's "holy child" that Herod, Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel were gathered against when He was condemned to death.  Jesus was not crucified when He was a child, and the same literary technique is at work here in Revelation 12:5 when "Her child", (being in actuality a fully-grown man), was caught up to God and His throne at His ascension.

The "woman" in Revelation 12:1 is ethnic Israel, as soterion has mentioned, with the sun, moon, and stars symbolism providing a throwback to Joseph's dream of the sun,moon, and stars being a symbol of the "house of Jacob" from which Jesus would later descend (Gen. 37:9-10).  Gabriel's words to Mary are also related to this subject of Jesus assuming His throne: "He (Jesus) shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: AND THE LORD GOD SHALL GIVE UNTO HIM THE THRONE OF HIS FATHER DAVID: And He shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of His kingdom there shall be no end." (Luke 1:32-33)

I would also echo soterion's comments that this "reign over the house of Jacob" had already been initiated by the time Peter, on the Day of Pentecost, announced that Christ was already seated upon this throne of His father David (Acts 2:3-36).  The Ephesians 1: 20-22 text was also another great passage he used proving Christ was already sitting at the right hand of the Father as the Head (the origin and the source) of the church.

However, if you are wondering where the "hereafter"element of something future apears in these Revelation 12:1-5 verses, you can find it if you read Revelation 12:5 in the Interlinear.  "And she brought forth a son male, WHO IS *ABOUT TO* SHEPHERD ALL THE NATIONS WITH A ROD OF IRON, and was caught away her child to God and His throne."  This shows us that the ascended Christ who was already enthroned, in the very near future to John writing this, was "ABOUT TO SHEPHERD ALL THE NATIONS" with an iron shepherd's staff that could not be broken.  This indicated that His kingdom would never be broken or come to an end, just as the angel Gabriel promised to Mary. 

When we realize that this whole chapter is describing first-century events, and that anything "hereafter" was in the immediate future for John's readers, this entire chapter 12 falls into place in a perfect chronology of biblical history.  Once Christ ascended to God and His throne in AD 33, the "woman" fled into the wilderness for 1,260 days (or about 3 1/2 years) while the Dragon cast a flood of water after her.  This represents the believers of the infant Jewish church at Jerusalem after Pentecost having to scatter into the Judaean and Samarian countryside as they fled persecution that sprang up by the Jewish leaders on the very day of Stephen's martyrdom (Acts 8:1).

The "feeding" of the "woman" was the work of the 12 apostles who were the leaders as the church's doctrines were being taught to the new Jewish converts in those days after Pentecost.  Just as Christ promised them in Matthew 19:28, the apostles were sitting on 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel on church matters in Jerusalem.  During those early days of the church, most evangelism done by the disciples and the apostles was devoted only to their fellow Jews.  This was in fulfillment of the last 3 1/2 years of Daniel's 70th "week", when Christ was "confirming the covenant" with many of Daniel's people (the New Covenant in Christ's blood).  Under Paul's ministry, the bulk of God's evangelistic focus then shifted to concentrate mainly with the Gentiles after that last 70th week had come to a close in AD 37.  As Paul and Barnabas once said in Acts 13:46, "It was NECESSARY" (because of the prophecy about the 70th week confirming the New Covenant with Daniel's people for 7 years) "that the word of God should FIRST have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles."

When the Dragon cast out waters of persecution after the "woman" (the believing Jews of the early church in Israel), this not only included persecution by the hostile Jewish leaders, but it included Saul's / (Paul's) persecution of the church.  However, once Paul was converted, this persecution he was leading against the Jewish Christians was "swallowed up", which "helped the woman".  These results of Paul's conversion enraged the Dragon, (Satan) and in retaliation, he went to make war with the small "remnant of her seed".  This "remnant" was specifically the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints which were raised along with Christ and remained as evangelistic workers in the church.  We know this "remnant" is them, because the key descriptive phrase for the "remnant" in Revelation 12:17b matches with the same phrase in Revelation 14:12 that describes the 144,000 "Firstfruits" who were raised along with Christ; also called by the name of the "Firstfruits" (I Cor. 15:20,23).

Revelation 12:17  -  "...the remnant of her seed" (her seed being Christ) "which KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD; AND HAVE THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST."

Revelation 14:12  -  "...Here are they that KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD, AND THE FAITH OF JESUS."  This is describing the 144,000 "Firstfruits" of Rev. 14:4 that belonged to the Lamb.  (The first sickle harvest in Rev. 14:14-16 by the one like the Son of Man, crowned, and sitting on the cloud is the risen Christ raising this remnant of 144,000 Matthew 27:52-53 saints from the dead.)

Both of these verses are referring to the resurrected remnant of Jewish saints from 12 tribes that came to life again during the "First Resurrection" in which Christ raised them from the dead together with Himself (also known as the Rev. 20:5 "remnant of the dead").  Being resurrected saints, they could "keep the commandments of God" perfectly, and were one of the Dragon's main targets that he was warring against in that "short time" that he had to deceive the nations.  This "short time" was between Christ's AD 33 ascension and the end of that Old Covenant Judaic Age when the temple was destroyed.  Christ allowed the Dragon / Satan that "little season" and that "short time" period, knowing that He was "*ABOUT TO* SHEPHERD ALL THE NATIONS" with the unbroken iron rod of His kingdom that would have no end.

Soterion's viewpoint and mine differ in that I recognize that the disposal of Satan and his angels in the Lake of Fire in Rev. 20:10 CANNOT be left out of the written prophecies whose fulfillment was "at hand" in those days.  They are included between the imminent time constraints of Revelation 1:1-3 and Revelation 22:6-10, 12, 20.  To be consistent, if we claim that all written prophecies in Revelation were "at hand" and to be fulfilled "shortly", then the demise of Satan and his angels was also "at hand" during the same time period.  We can't cherry-pick which written prophecies we want to leave out, simply because we are uncomfortable including them.


Offline larry2

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Re: The Woman & Her Child
« Reply #12 on: Mon Mar 19, 2018 - 01:13:57 »
Have you read Revelation 4:1? What translation are you using? I don't see anything even remotely like what you are saying.  ???

Using the following bibles from Bible Hub

New International Version   
Rev 1:10   On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit.
Rev 1:19   "Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.
Rev 4:1       "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this."

New Living Translation
Rev 1:10   It was the Lord's Day, and I was worshiping in the Spirit.
Rev 1:19   "Write down what you have seen--both the things that are now happening and the things that will happen.   
Rev 4:1      "Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after this."

English Standard Version
Rev 1:10   I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day.
Rev 1:19   Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this.
Rev 4:1       “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

Berean Study Bible
Rev 1:10   On the Lord's day I was in the Spirit.
Rev 1:19   Therefore write down the things you have seen, and the things that are, and the things that will happen after this.
Rev 4:1       

Berean Literal Bible
BLB  Rev 1:10   I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day.
BLB  Rev 1:19   Therefore write the things that you have seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to take place after these,
BLB  Rev 4:1    "Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after these things."

New American Standard Bible
Rev 1:10   I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day,
Rev 1:19   "Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things.
Rev 4:1    "Come up here, and I will show to you what it behooves to take place after these things."

King James Bible
Rev 1:10   I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day.
Rev 1:19   Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
Rev 4:1       Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Christian Standard Bible   
Rev 1:10   I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day.
Rev 1:19   Therefore write what you have seen, what is, and what will take place after this.
Rev 4:1       "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this."
Contemporary English Version
Rev 1:10   On the Lord's day the Spirit took control of me.
Rev 1:19   Write what you have seen and what is and what will happen after these things.
Rev 4:1       

Good News Translation
Rev 1:10   On the Lord's day the Spirit took control of me.
Rev 1:19   Write, then, the things you see, both the things that are now and the things that will happen afterward.
Rev 4:1       "Come up here! I will show you what must happen next."

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Rev 1:10   I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day.
Rev 1:19    Therefore write what you have seen, what is, and what will take place after this.
Rev 4:1       "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this."    

Good News Translation
Rev 1:10   On the Lord's day the Spirit took control of me.   
Rev 1:19   Write, then, the things you see, both the things that are now and the things that will happen afterward.
Rev 4:1       "Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after this."

International Standard Version
Rev 1:10   I came to be in the Spirit on the Day of the Lord.
Rev 1:19   Therefore, write down what you have seen, what is, and what is going to happen after this.      
 Rev 4:1      "Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after this."

NET Bible
Rev 1:10   I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day.
Rev 1:19   Therefore write what you saw, what is, and what will be after these things.
Rev 4:1       "Come up here so that I can show you what must happen after these things."

New Heart English Bible
Rev 1:10   I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day.
Rev 1:19   Write therefore the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will happen hereafter;
Rev 4:1       "Come up here, and I will show you the things which must happen after this."

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Rev 1:10   And I was in The Spirit on the first day of the week.
Rev 1:19   Write, therefore, whatever you have seen and those things that are, and that are going to come to pass after these things.
Rev 4:1    “Come up here, and I shall show you whatever is granted to happen after these things.”   

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Rev 1:10   I came under the Spirit's power on the Lord's day.
Rev 1:19   Therefore, write down what you have seen, what is, and what is going to happen after these things.
Rev 4:1       "Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after this."

New American Standard 1977
Rev 1:10   I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day.
Rev 1:19   “Write therefore the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall take place after these things.
Rev 4:1       “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.”

Jubilee Bible 2000
Rev 1:10   I was in the Spirit in the day of the Lord.
Rev 1:19   Write the things which thou hast seen and the things which are and the things which must be after these.
Rev 4:1       Come up here, and I will show thee the things that need to be done after these.

King James 2000 Bible
Rev 1:10   I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day.
Rev 1:19   Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
Rev 4:1       Come up here, and I will show you things which must be hereafter.

American King James Version
Rev 1:10   I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day.
Rev 1:19   Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
Rev 4:1      Come up here, and I will show you things which must be hereafter.

American Standard Version
Rev 1:10   I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day.
Rev 1:19    Write therefore the things which thou sawest, and the things which are, and the things which shall come to pass hereafter;
Rev 4:1      Come up hither, and I will show thee the things which must come to pass hereafter.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Rev 1:10   I was in the spirit on the Lord's day
Rev 1:19   Write therefore the things which thou hast seen, and which are, and which must be done hereafter.
Rev 4:1      Come up hither, and I will shew thee the things which must be done hereafter.

Darby Bible Translation
Rev 1:10   I became in [the] Spirit on the Lord's day.
Rev 1:19    Write therefore what thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to be after these.
Rev 4:1   Come up here, and I will shew thee the things which must take place after these things.

English Revised Version
Rev 1:10   I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day.
Rev 1:19   Write therefore the things which thou sawest, and the things which are, and the things which shall come to pass hereafter;
Rev 4:1      Come up hither, and I will shew thee the things which must come to pass hereafter.

Webster's Bible Translation
Rev 1:10   I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day,
Rev 1:19   Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
Rev 4:1      Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter.

Weymouth New Testament
Rev 1:10   In the Spirit I found myself present on the day of the Lord.
Rev 1:19   Write down therefore the things you have just seen, and those which are now taking place, and those which are soon to follow:
Rev 4:1       "Come up here, and I will show you things which are to happen in the future."

World English Bible
Rev 1:10   I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day.
Rev 1:19   Write therefore the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will happen hereafter;
Rev 4:1      "Come up here, and I will show you the things which must happen after this."

Young's Literal Translation
Rev 1:10   I was in the Spirit on the Lord's-day.
Rev 1:19   'Write the things that thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to come after these things;
Rev 4:1   'Come up hither, and I will shew thee what it behoveth to come to pass after these things;'

Offline Christs Princess

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Re: The Woman & Her Child
« Reply #13 on: Mon Mar 19, 2018 - 02:15:57 »
Hello Larry!! Do u remember me?  ::clappingoverhead::

Offline larry2

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Re: The Woman & Her Child
« Reply #14 on: Mon Mar 19, 2018 - 02:20:45 »
@larry2  -  I hope you won't let the term "child" trip you up when it is used in Revelation 12:5.  I believe with soterion and many others that this "child" is indeed Jesus Christ.  When it talks about "Her child" being caught up to God and His throne, it doesn't mean that Jesus was a very young human child at the time when this "catching up" took place.  Try looking at a comparable example in Acts 4:27 when Peter called Jesus God's "holy child" that Herod, Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel were gathered against when He was condemned to death.  Jesus was not crucified when He was a child, and the same literary technique is at work here in Revelation 12:5 when "Her child", (being in actuality a fully-grown man), was caught up to God and His throne at His ascension.

Hi @3 Resurrections, and thanks for your input. As you probably realize I am probably known as a Futurist. First I literally believe that the Lord's Day is that time when Jesus catches up His first rank of believers that will reign conjointly with Him. In other scripture that time is said to be the Day of the Lord, or in some references said to say In That Day, etc.

I'm not sure you're also saying that all these things occurred with the death of our Lord, but when you mention the suffering of Israel at that time, they've seen nothing yet in comparison to what's coming. Dan 12:1  there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time. In Jesus' time and afterward there was persecution, and the churches were moving from Jerusalem to parts of Asia.

Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. We read in Rev 9:16 of an army of two hundred million destroying one third of all mankind.

Who do I think the Manchild of Rev 12:5 is? Again I think Rev 4:1 has great relevance as to the birth of the Sign Woman of Rev 12:1 at near the very middle of the tribulation is the 144,000 that we are actually shown with Jesus in Rev 14:1. After these things is a viewpoint completely separate from those things which were that John wrote of. Thanks.  ::smile::


Offline larry2

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Re: The Woman & Her Child
« Reply #15 on: Mon Mar 19, 2018 - 02:36:09 »
Hello Larry!! Do u remember me?  ::clappingoverhead::
No I don't by name, but with your wonderful attitude I'm sure I'll start recognizing your posts soon.
Thanks for the great welcome back.   ::smile::

Offline Christs Princess

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Re: The Woman & Her Child
« Reply #16 on: Mon Mar 19, 2018 - 02:38:09 »
Aw thanks Larry,  It was several years ago now, but you may remember some of my story. i will PM you when I can :)

Offline larry2

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Re: The Woman & Her Child
« Reply #17 on: Mon Mar 19, 2018 - 02:49:20 »
Aw thanks Larry,  It was several years ago now, but you may remember some of my story. i will PM you when I can :)
Thanks dear sister in Christ.  ::amen!::

Offline soterion

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Re: The Woman & Her Child
« Reply #18 on: Mon Mar 19, 2018 - 08:06:29 »
larry2,

You said, "Rev 4:1 says that Jesus’ throne will be set hereafter from that time of the Lord’s Day"

Then you posted this:
New International Version   
Rev 1:10   On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit.
Rev 1:19   "Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.
Rev 4:1       "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this."

Nope. When you say, Rev 4:1, how am I supposed to know you are combining 3 different passages?  ::headscratch::

Regardless, the three passages together still say nothing about Jesus' throne being set up. You are assuming that into the passages when they say nothing like it at all.

Now, the Lord's Day. John was given the visions to write down in a book. The book is what we call Revelation. He was given those visions on the Lord's day (Rev 1:10-11). I gather that this Lord's day was a first day of the week. That day was prior to his writing down the visions in this book. It cannot be a day future to the writing of Revelation.

Offline larry2

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Re: The Woman & Her Child
« Reply #19 on: Mon Mar 19, 2018 - 12:13:39 »
larry2,
You said, "Rev 4:1 says that Jesus’ throne will be set hereafter from that time of the Lord’s Day"
To correctly divide scripture we must know what the Day of the Lord is, and it is not Sunday. And then from that point in time John is caught up into heaven to be shown things in the viewpoint which shall be hereafter from the beginning of the Lord's Day.

Then you posted this:
New International Version   
Rev 1:10   On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit.
Rev 1:19   "Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.
Rev 4:1       "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this."

Nope. When you say, Rev 4:1, how am I supposed to know you are combining 3 different passages?  ::headscratch::
Regardless, the three passages together still say nothing about Jesus' throne being set up. You are assuming that into the passages when they say nothing like it at all.[/quote]
I was just establishing the starting point, but Rev 4:2 is where we see an actual throne being set for Jesus at the beginning of the Day of the Lord.
Notice what those saints of Rev 4:4 & Rev 4:6 with Jesus at this time even prior to the tribulation beginning saying:
Rev 4:10  The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Rev 4:11  Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Isn't this what Joh 1:3 said? " All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.

Now, the Lord's Day. John was given the visions to write down in a book. The book is what we call Revelation. He was given those visions on the Lord's day (Rev 1:10-11). I gather that this Lord's day was a first day of the week. That day was prior to his writing down the visions in this book. It cannot be a day future to the writing of Revelation.
It's just my opinion, but this view is distorting your entire understanding of what the Lord is doing at any given viewpoint Jesus' angel of Rev 1:1 is showing John. E.g., why would John be told to come up here to heaven in Rev 4:1 if he remains on Patmos and is just having a vision?

Offline soterion

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Re: The Woman & Her Child
« Reply #20 on: Mon Mar 19, 2018 - 21:17:57 »
larry2,

I really can't help you any more than what I have tried thus far.

John was given visions to write down, he wrote them down with the double emphasis (both ends of the book) that these things will take place shortly and the time is at hand. If you want thousands of years into the future to be "shortly" and "at hand" from the time of writing, that's on you. Also, there is no way that you cannot accept that Rev 12 describes past events, leading up to the Christ ascending into heaven and salvation being now available to all men. That is what verse 10 says. If you place Rev 12 future, then you place the offer of salvation from Jesus in the future.

I doubt the Lord will strike either of us down for misunderstanding the proper application of the message to the seven churches, so no worries. My only concern is for how you read and interpret scripture.

Offline larry2

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Re: The Woman & Her Child
« Reply #21 on: Mon Mar 19, 2018 - 21:26:50 »
larry2,

I really can't help you any more than what I have tried thus far.

John was given visions to write down, he wrote them down with the double emphasis (both ends of the book) that these things will take place shortly and the time is at hand. If you want thousands of years into the future to be "shortly" and "at hand" from the time of writing, that's on you. Also, there is no way that you cannot accept that Rev 12 describes past events, leading up to the Christ ascending into heaven and salvation being now available to all men. That is what verse 10 says. If you place Rev 12 future, then you place the offer of salvation from Jesus in the future.

I doubt the Lord will strike either of us down for misunderstanding the proper application of the message to the seven churches, so no worries. My only concern is for how you read and interpret scripture.
Thanks.   ::tippinghat::

Offline larry2

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Re: The Woman & Her Child
« Reply #22 on: Tue Mar 20, 2018 - 12:02:25 »
For any that may have an interest is this woman, and the time involved, I submit the following.

Mat 24:15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation (Who is this?), spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place . . . (What holy place is being spoken of here? God had given Israel a bill of divorce according to Jer 3:8.)

Mat 24:16  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Does Mt 24:16 make sense as being this woman spoken of in Rev 12:6?  And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. (This is three and one half years, which is the second half of the tribulation.)

Offline soterion

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Re: The Woman & Her Child
« Reply #23 on: Tue Mar 20, 2018 - 19:54:58 »
Does Mt 24:16 make sense as being this woman spoken of in Rev 12:6? 

No, it doesn't make sense.

Quote
And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. (This is three and one half years, which is the second half of the tribulation.)

Well, let me try once again. If this is all future, then so is Rev 12:10. The salvation, et al, of Christ has not yet come.

No salvation today. ::frown::