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Offline Truth Files

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Understanding Thessalonians 2
« on: Tue Sep 07, 2010 - 18:17:05 »
The early believers of Thessalonica were troubled because of the prevalent false teaching that the day of the Lord was in process .... they thought they had missed the Lord's "harpazo" action to immortalize them:

Paul had discussed this issue with them earlier [1Thessalonians 4, 5] and so he sets the record straight by explaining that the day of the Lord had not yet come ..... he also tells them why ..... because certain conditions were not present .... the coming of the lawless one and his following [the falling away].

The gathering Paul speaks of and the day of the Lord are not the same events and the Lord's immortalization of the believer [both those asleep and those living at the time] will occur first ..... and then the day of the Lord will begin abruptly with no warning given to earth dwellers.

The day of the Lord will begin with His "hour" of trial [the coming tribulation period of 2,550 days] .... and will then include His coming millennial kingdom upon the earth for 1,000 years.

The term "last day" [the time frame of the day of the Lord] used in prophetic presentation is a period of time .... not just "one" 24 hour day .... and when this is used it is always presented as "at", or "in" the last day .... not "on" the last day.

Revelation confirms that the gathering noted in 2Thessalonians 2:1 is the Lord's call to immortalize the believer just before His coming hour of trial. Today's church is seen with Him dwelling heaven, in His temple, and around the throne just before, during, and at the closing of the tribulation period. [Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:5-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14; 19:1-14; 20;4 (those on thrones)]

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Understanding Thessalonians 2
« on: Tue Sep 07, 2010 - 18:17:05 »

Offline mclees8

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Re: Understanding Thessalonians 2
« Reply #1 on: Wed Sep 08, 2010 - 09:10:18 »
The day of the Lord will begin with His "hour" of trial [the coming tribulation period of 2,550 days] .... and will then include His coming millennial kingdom upon the earth for 1,000 years.



Mike

could you give me a little brake down. From what scripture do you derive the 2550 days. and i assume you are calling this the day of the Lord the final seven years.

God bless

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Re: Understanding Thessalonians 2
« Reply #1 on: Wed Sep 08, 2010 - 09:10:18 »

Offline Truth Files

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Re: Understanding Thessalonians 2
« Reply #2 on: Wed Sep 08, 2010 - 11:55:24 »
mclees,

I am actually Stephen [Truth Files]

Here is the break down:

The coming 70th week decreed for Israel is divided into 1260 days + 1260 days ; the 70th week is a period of 7 years [heptad] [Daniel 9]

Daniel then adds 30 days to the second 1260 days [Daniel 12]

This total is equal to 2550 days

He also adds another 45 days [Daniel 12]

The 30 day extension will involve the Lord's turning on the beast and his kingdom at the end of his 42 [second 1260 days] month rule

The first 1260 will involve the beast's rise to power and he and his followers will invade Israel at the middle of the 70th week

The additional 45 days will involve the Lord gathering the mortal survivors of the tribulation period [Matthew 24:29-31(Israel); 25:31-46(the nations)]


Offline mclees8

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Re: Understanding Thessalonians 2
« Reply #3 on: Wed Sep 08, 2010 - 17:10:11 »
mclees,

I am actually Stephen [Truth Files]

Here is the break down:

The coming 70th week decreed for Israel is divided into 1260 days + 1260 days ; the 70th week is a period of 7 years [heptad] [Daniel 9]

Daniel then adds 30 days to the second 1260 days [Daniel 12]

This total is equal to 2550 days

He also adds another 45 days [Daniel 12]

The 30 day extension will involve the Lord's turning on the beast and his kingdom at the end of his 42 [second 1260 days] month rule

The first 1260 will involve the beast's rise to power and he and his followers will invade Israel at the middle of the 70th week

The additional 45 days will involve the Lord gathering the mortal survivors of the tribulation period [Matthew 24:29-31(Israel); 25:31-46(the nations)]



Alright Steven I agree with this. What i have a problem with is the final seven  called the tribulation period. Theologians say  that based on what rapture persuasion they are but biblicaly it is not called this


I have heard the whole final seven called the period of great tribulation when in fact this is only the final 3&1/2 years.

It is an error to call the final seven the tribulation period. As we have pointed out the first 3&1/2 years will be the time immediately after a peace is struck in Israel by the antichrist mark the final  seven years. This time will be a time of relative peace while the antichrist is working to establish power. He will use the apostate church to help get his seat. It will be a time they may call a time of peace and safety.

Tribulation is something that the church has experienced from its very birth. the time of great tribulation is the final 371/2 YEARS  This is time will be time of great persecution against all believers who will not take the mark. It will surpass any persecution the church has ever known. The Vatican will be burned when the antichrist countries turn against it.

they will seek to kill all Christians

God bless


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Re: Understanding Thessalonians 2
« Reply #3 on: Wed Sep 08, 2010 - 17:10:11 »

Offline Truth Files

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Re: Understanding Thessalonians 2
« Reply #4 on: Wed Sep 08, 2010 - 19:17:00 »
mclees,

When I refer to "the" coming "tribulation" period I relate this to the 70th week decreed for Israel's experience in the time frame [the time of jacob's trouble"] [Jeremiah 30] and also the "hour" [time] of the Lord's coming trial and judment [Revelation 3:10] upon the whole world

I also believe that that entire period will be great tribulation upon the earth from the get go [Revelation 6:12-17]

This period will come with no warning or signs [1Thessalonians 5:1-9; Matthew 24:36-39; Luke 21:35]

It will be a time of the Lord's wrath which is very different from the trials and tribulations of this short trouble filled life

.... and the church of today is not appointed to this coming wrath against an unbelieving world [Revelation 3:10]

There will be those repent and become believers during the period, but most will be killed for their faith [Revelation 6:9-11; 14:13; 15:2-3; 20:4(those beheaded)]  

The Lord makes this statement and says "then will be great tribulation" and I believe He is speaking of the entire period [all 2550 days] including all of the events he describes in His discourse [Matthew 24:21] as part of his narration

The wrath of God spoken of in Revelation 16 is just an ending part of the entire judgment period and specifically set out against the beast and His kingdom at the end of his 42 month rule .... the next 30 days culminating at the battle of Armageddon

I do not believe that there will be any peace agreement between Israel and the nation's Middle Eastern enemies as many pre-tribulation proponents do .... I will elaborate more this in future postings and more specifically tell why

Briefly .... the covenant confirmed in Daniel 9:26-27 has to do with the Lord [the first "he"] executing the final 70th week for Daniel's people in the context of the passage and not a phony peace agreement suggested by the other prince in the vision who is the little horn [satan's beast]

The Lord will do this to reach the 6 objectives for the "many" [a believing remnant part of Israel] during the 70th week .... Israel is in rejection today, but this is going to change by the Lord pressuring a remnant part Israel to turn to Him

This other prince [the second "he"] will rule over Israel for 42 months [the last 1260 days] unopposed .... but he will have to conquer the "great city" of the gentiles [Revelation 8:8; 17:16-18; 18:1-21], unite the Middle East by alliance and conquest, and fend off the king of the south [Egypt], and sweep away his opposition from the far east and far north [Daniel 11:36-44]

All of this will be going on during the first 1260 days of the 70th week .... he will then be in a position to invade, conquer, and rule over Israel, Jerusalem, and the temple mount, and the Middle East unopposed for the next 1260 days [42 months] [Revelation 11:2]

So this prince [the first beast from the abyss of Revelation in the little horn of Daniel's visions] will be a war monger from the get go .... at the very beginning of the 70th week ... he will invade Israel at the middle of the week

I will post more on just who this prince [beast] is soon [2Thessalonians 2:8-12; Revelation 9:11; 11:7; 12:12; 13:1-4; 17:8]

.... and He will destroy many with "peace" .... his rational will be to kill all who will not submit to him and his claim to bring a kingdom of peace on the earth

His cult [led by the second beast of Revelation ] will be a religion that looks like a lamb, but speaks like a dragon [like satan]

One that claims to be a peaceful religion, but at the same time speaks [like a dragon] hatred against the Lord and Israel .... sound familiar?





  

  
« Last Edit: Wed Sep 08, 2010 - 19:35:15 by Truth Files »

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Re: Understanding Thessalonians 2
« Reply #4 on: Wed Sep 08, 2010 - 19:17:00 »



Offline Joshleet

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Re: Understanding Thessalonians 2
« Reply #5 on: Wed Sep 08, 2010 - 20:28:56 »
The day of the Lord will begin with His "hour" of trial [the coming tribulation period of 2,550 days] .... and will then include His coming millennial kingdom upon the earth for 1,000 years.



Mike

could you give me a little brake down. From what scripture do you derive the 2550 days. and i assume you are calling this the day of the Lord the final seven years.

God bless

  Hi Mike. 

  The situation you mention is what has caused so much confusion concerning end time events.   IT has been accepted as estalished truth that the  final seven year period, encompasses the first Seven years of the day of the Lord.  It has been this mislabeling of this final seven year period AS the Day of the Lord, that has brought many to make many false conclusions concerning this time period. More on this later.

   First off we need to establish when the TRUE day of the Lord begins.  Consider the following scripture.


 
Quote
Joel 3:12-15 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to te valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge the heathen round about. PUT YE IN THE SICKLE FOR THE HARVEST IS RIPE: come, get ye down, for the press is full, the fats overflow, for their wickedness is great.  Multitudes. multitudes in the valley of decision FOR THE DAY OF THE LORD IS NEAR IN THE VALLEY OF DECISION.  THE SUN AND THE MOON SHALL BE DARKENED, AND THE STARS SHALL WITHDRAW THEIR SHINING.

   What can we conclude fron the above scripture?   When the day of the Lord is "near" we witness certian events occuring.  It is safe to conclude that UNTILL these events occur, the day of the Lord has yet to begin!!! These events are....

      1. Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe.

      2.  The sun and moon shall be darkened.


 
    Where do we witness these events occuring in other prophetic scripture?  We'll start with the easy one first, #2. 

         
Quote
Matthew 24:29IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS, SHALL THE SUN BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON SHALL NOT GIVE HER LIGHT, AND THE STARS SHALL FALL FROM HEAVEN, AND THE POWER OF THE HEAVENS SHALL BE SHAKEN: AND THEN SHALL APPEAR THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN IN HEAVEN, and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see te Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.  /b]


        What can we safely conclude from this scripture?   it is immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days, the sun and moon are darkened, but according to Joel 3;12-15, this event occurs when the day of the Lord is
"Near".  The only conclusion we can  draw, is that the TRUE day of the Lord, MUST follow, wHAT IS CALLED THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS.  The "tribulation of those days" does encompass the entire seven year period, However NONE of IT is part of the day of the Lord.


    Those that enbrace the PRe-trib theory MUST make the 70th week, the day of the Lord, for it is IN the day of the Lord God's wrath is poured out.   They try to justify their pre-trib position by doing this, but as you can see, their is scripture that very plainly refutes what they have enbraced as "truth.

   Now, lets go back to point #1.  The day of the Lord is NEar, when we wintess the "trusting in of the sickles. "  Where do we witness this occuring in Revelation?  It is Rev 14;14-20.  The sickle spoken of in Joel 3:12-15, is the second sickle specificlly in Rev. 14:17-20.  When this harvest occurs, the world is only being prepared to face the day of the Lord.


    This lines up perfectly with what was stated in matthew 24:29.  it is Immediately AFTER the time of Jacob's trouble, the day of the Lord begins.


     I know what I share goes against What most have accepted As "truth", but let the Word of God be right, and everyone else Wrong!!!!!


     We are not destined for the wrath of God,  but the Lords wrath will fall only AFTER THE COMPLETION OF THE REIGN OF THE FALSE MESSIAH, THAT  OCCURs  IN THE SECOND HALF OF THE 70TH WEEK. 

Offline mclees8

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Re: Understanding Thessalonians 2
« Reply #6 on: Thu Sep 09, 2010 - 10:36:10 »
Thanks and now i know you are not of pre trib. I was once but I now agree with your statement

    We are not destined for the wrath of God,  but the Lords wrath will fall only AFTER THE COMPLETION OF THE REIGN OF THE FALSE MESSIAH, THAT  OCCURs  IN THE SECOND HALF OF THE 70TH WEEK.

I do not look much at the 70 weeks of Daniel, and it maybe called the time of Jacobs trouble, but this one thing i do know, is that the church ( the saints) ( the true bride)is found in Heaven being honored before God for having gotten the victory over the beast and his mark, just before Gods wrath is poured out. This means the saints have already suffered at the hands of the antichrist and have been caught up, before Gods wrath begins. 

This agrees with Daniel 7:25  And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

This period is the whole final 3&1/2 years fro the abomination of desolation that the antichrist is allowed to persecute the saints, which means there must be a post rapture and the wrath of God is at the end of the final seven.

Would you agree with this ?
 

   

Offline mclees8

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Re: Understanding Thessalonians 2
« Reply #7 on: Thu Sep 09, 2010 - 10:56:52 »
Sorry I meant to say that Revelation 15: 2 shows the saints in heaven after the antichrist has persecuted them.

God bless

Offline rezar

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Re: Understanding Thessalonians 2
« Reply #8 on: Thu Sep 09, 2010 - 10:57:44 »
Like I asked in the Theology thread- Did the Thessalonians receive relief from the persecuting Judaizers when Christ "returned " in judgment on those who troubled the early church?

If not, then you'd be saying Paul was a false prophet. Christ's return was prophetic, not physical.

I believe scripture & Paul!

Offline Joshleet

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Re: Understanding Thessalonians 2
« Reply #9 on: Thu Sep 09, 2010 - 12:00:04 »
Thanks and now i know you are not of pre trib. I was once but I now agree with your statement

    We are not destined for the wrath of God,  but the Lords wrath will fall only AFTER THE COMPLETION OF THE REIGN OF THE FALSE MESSIAH, THAT  OCCURs  IN THE SECOND HALF OF THE 70TH WEEK.

I do not look much at the 70 weeks of Daniel, and it maybe called the time of Jacobs trouble, but this one thing i do know, is that the church ( the saints) ( the true bride)is found in Heaven being honored before God for having gotten the victory over the beast and his mark, just before Gods wrath is poured out. This means the saints have already suffered at the hands of the antichrist and have been caught up, before Gods wrath begins. 

This agrees with Daniel 7:25  And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

This period is the whole final 3&1/2 years fro the abomination of desolation that the antichrist is allowed to persecute the saints, which means there must be a post rapture and the wrath of God is at the end of the final seven.

Would you agree with this ?
 

   

   HI mclees8.


       You have the order of events down perfectly.


           ANother "assumed truth" concerning end time events, is the final seven year period will consist of first, 3 1/2 year of Peace, followed by 3 1/2 years of war.   This however, is diametriclly opposed to what Jesus Himself stated in matthew 24.


           When the disciples asked Jesus concerning the events of the END OF THE AGE, the very first thing he warned us of, is there would be "wars and rumors of Wars,  that we are not to be troubled, these things MUST come to pass, but the end is not YET.

           Most of today's "prophets" have concluded that this is just a "general warning" of how things will be prior to the end.   This however, was not a general warning, but a very specific one.   Notice Jesus states, "all these things must come to pass"  Why did he state this?  This phrase is only used, when Christ was referencing an event that must  take place, to fulfill certian prophetic scripture.   Jesus was warning the disciples (US) not to accept THESE WARS AS THE END.  THIS IS A DIRECT REFERENCE TO THE EZEKIEL 38 WAR.  JESUS KNEW THAT IF ONE DID ACCEPT THIS WAR AS THE END, ONE WOULD END UP ACCEPTING THE FALSE MESSIAH, AS THE true!!!!!  

            This is what we are witnessing in the sixth seal of revelation. it is a group of people, accepting the Wars and rumors of wars AS THE END.   Hence the reason behind why THEY are concluding it is the DAY OF THE LORD!!!!!  They did not heed the warning that Jesus had given.  Nor should we have expected them to!!!  These folks are hiding from the Lord being UNBELIEVERS!!!!  This is the group of people the Lord stated (through Paul in II thess. )  he would bring the "strong delusion on".  This is what we are witnessing in the sixth seal, at the climax of the Ezekiel 38 war.

       Now getting back to the actual sequence of events in the 70th week, what we actually witness is a series of Wars and rumors of Wars in the FIRST HALF (BUT THE END IS NOT YET) Climaxing with the war of Ezekiel 38 midweek.  This is followed by the 42 month reign of the False Messiah.

       It is during this time the falling away comes first, and at the END OF THE REIGN OF THE FALSE MESSIAH, his true identity is revealed.  "That day shall not come, accept there come a falling away FIRST, AND THE MAN OF SIN REVEALED.".  then THE TRUE DAY OF THE lORD.

  
 THE DANGER THAT LIES WITHIN WHAT PRETRIBBERS ENBRACE AS TRUE, HAS IT ROOTS IN THEIR  (lack of) UNDERSTANDING OF THE TIMING OF EVENTS.  MOST WILL sincerley believe that what has occured in the first half of the 70th week, the wars and rumors of wars,  WAS THE LAST HALF OF a greater  SEVEN YEAR PERIOD THEY WERE LOOKING FOR!!!

     It will be after the climactic Battle of Ezekiel 38, do we witness Satan cast out of heaven, and the 42 month reign of the false messiah being described  in revelation.   Many will sincerely believe that He IS Jesus returned, for they will have gone through a seven year time period prior to his reign, they have enbraced, and accepted as FULL prophetic scripture being fulfilled. The strong delusion has also occured, which will drive these people into the acceptance of THE LIE.   We witness this occuring in Rev 13:16, as we witness the very same group of people that has accepted the events of the sixth seal AS the day of the Lord, now accepting the "mark" of Antichrist, thinking they have swore allegience to the Lord himself.   THis is what will bring on the atmosphere of Father betraying the Son, and Daughter the Mother, in the end time.  You are going to be labeled total Looney TUnes" if you do not accept their messiah.

   Jesus stated he would return in an "hour that you think not".  no one will be looking for Him to return, if they thought he was already here, and has already established His 1000 year reign!!!!

   The Book of revelation is so simple to understand, if one can only approach it as  A child, and allow events within it, to stay in the order they were given to us.  The following is a quick breakdown as i see it.

    1.  The wars and rumors of Wars. The first half of the 70th week, is covered in the first six seals.  With these wars climaxing Midweek, with the ezekiel 38 war.  

    2.  The first four trumpets.  These events bring on the destruction of One third of everyting.    it is no "coincidence' that the destruction these four trumpets bring on, is the very same destruction the vials of the wrath of God bring on, only smaller in scope (1/3) . it will be very easy for one one to ASSUME THAT THESE FOUR TRUMPETS IS THE WRATH OF GOD.  However, the second distinction that must be made , is these four trumpets are blown before the next three "Woes"

   3.  Fifth and sixth trumpet..  Satan is finally cast out of heaven , with his hordes of fallen ones following close behind.  I believe all of these events are occuring very rapidly, following the climax of the ezekiel 38 war, back in the sixth seal.

   4.  At this time John is told something VERY profound in the tenth chapter.  "thou must "prophecy again to many peoples and nations and tongues.... Why was he told this?  at this prophetic point in time, everthing He has witneess has been a "mirror image", a near perfect "duplication", (only smaller in scope) of what is yet to come.  

   5. Chapters 11, 12, and 13. all describe the same 42 month time period the false messiah will be ruling in the last half of the 70th week.  it will be BETWEEN THE SIXTH AND LAST TRUMPET HIS 42 MONTH REIGN WILL OCCUR.

   6.   The last trumpet occurs, the Kingdoms of the world become the Kingdoms of His Christ.  In the 14th chapter we witness the TWO harvests. This encompasses the removel of the Church (first harvest Rev. 14:14-16) This is followed by the second reaper (Rev. 14:17-20) That now prepares the world for the wrath of God to be poured out.

   7. The seven vials of the Wrath of God are now POured out on those who  according to REv 14:9-10, who have taken the mark of the beast of who have worshipped him during His reign.

       You are correct with your observation of when the true "HARVEST"  (some call it rapture) takes place.  It will be at the completion of the 70th week, but will be the opening event of the day of the lord!!!  It will be POst 70th week, but also pre-wrath.

       Notice what is stated in Rev. 11:15-18.  It is at the sounding of the "last trumpet' the kingdoms of this world become the Kingdoms of our Lord.  It is at this time WE HAVE to be removed, simply because there is no longer any need for "ambassadors" of the Kingdom of God anymore on earth.    The earth is no Longer a foreign Land that Christ has sent ambassadors to,  it is now under His ownership.  it is at this time OUr "job title changes from abassadors of the Kingdon, to co-rulers with Christ!!!

  
Quote
Matthew 24:29  IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS,  SHALL THE SUN BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON NOT GIVE HER LIGHT. (THIS, ACCORDING TO JOEL 3:12-15 occurs when the day of the Lord is "Near".)  vs, 31 And he shall send is angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.  
 

  Scripture is quite clear that the True day of the Lord MUST follow the completiuon of the 70th week.  


Offline Truth Files

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Re: Understanding Thessalonians 2
« Reply #10 on: Thu Sep 09, 2010 - 16:55:16 »
The day of the Lord will include His wrath against an unbelieving world and this time frame will preclude His coming millennial reign upon the earth

And I can tell you that this "hour" of trial will last for 2550 days according to the prophetic visions

The Lord Himself will be the one executing this judgment time frame with no doubt

But He will not appear to the world until just after

So the "day of the Lord" is a time frame of 7years + 1000 years .... and beyond

We are currently in the "day of man" ....  human self rule

He will intervene and seek to bring down all human governments and will take back the earth for Himself

His process of doing this will include 2550 days of His judgment actions

A good Bible search engine used on this subject will reveal the events and their extents; and all verses and their contextual coverage regarding "the day of the Lord" must be taken together for correct rendering  

Offline mclees8

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Re: Understanding Thessalonians 2
« Reply #11 on: Fri Sep 10, 2010 - 10:53:45 »
The day of the Lord will include His wrath against an unbelieving world and this time frame will preclude His coming millennial reign upon the earth

And I can tell you that this "hour" of trial will last for 2550 days according to the prophetic visions


Mike
This is the part i do not quite agree with.  I call the hour of trial only of the final 3&1/2 years. I believe you are saying the day of the Lords wrath includes the whole final seven years. I believe and i believe you have said also that the first 3&1/2 years that begins with the peace accord in Israel instituted  by the antichrist will be a time of relative peace ( a short live peace at that) that ends at the abomination of desolation when the man of sin declares he is god. I do not count this part of the final seven as being any part of Gods wrath. As far as the tribulation goes the church has experienced that from its birth a Pentecost  and great tribulation begins with the abomination of desolation mid term of the seven year peace

How ever this first 3&1/2 years will be a time when the church will be tested by the false prophet to follow the antichrist . A most dangerous time for the church that would look to political solutions to world problems there by buying into the lies of the antichrist.   Today I believe this false prophet will be the Vatican

God bless

Offline Truth Files

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Re: Understanding Thessalonians 2
« Reply #12 on: Fri Sep 10, 2010 - 11:24:21 »
mclees,

Again, I am not Mike

Not sure who Mike is on the forum

I do not believe that the first 1260 days of the 70th week will be a time of peace so I don’t know where you got that idea

It will be a time of upheaval, vexation, destruction and warfare and will include the little horn’s rise to power; this will take 1260 days and then he will rule for the next 1260 days

Here is the little horn’s war campaign leading to the invasion of Israel at the middle of the 70th week [Daniel 11:36-44]

The 70th week is all still future and the details of the entire time frame can be found for it in the visions

The Lord’s hour [time] of trial [His wrath and judgment} will extend for the entire time frame

Here is the beginning [Revelation 6:12-17]

You also need to know that it is the Lord Himself who will bring all of the judgments of Revelation’s unfolding and they will begin in chapter 8

The first strike will be against the “great city

Offline rezar

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Re: Understanding Thessalonians 2
« Reply #13 on: Fri Sep 10, 2010 - 11:40:33 »

by truthfiles,
Quote
It will be a time of upheaval, vexation, destruction and warfare and will include the little horn’s rise to power; this will take 1260 days and then he will rule for the next 1260 days
Will be? I've read the fictional futuristic prophecy books (thank God not too many before I wasted more money!!) 

You should have studied secular history, then you would humble yourself when you learn(discern) who the "little horn" was in Daniel 7. (You have Dan11 all wrong btw)

Little horn was Titus, Vespasian's son. And yes, he wreaked havoc on the Jews for the time, times, & a half time. AD67-70.

Why are you worried about an Antichrist & not preaching the "good news" of the kingdom of God?

How does your illogical expectations glorify God?


Offline Truth Files

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Re: Understanding Thessalonians 2
« Reply #14 on: Fri Sep 10, 2010 - 13:04:24 »
I have to tell you you are way off coarse

Preterism is an extra-biblical extraction that takes some of the scriptures and trashes the rest .... some truth and much error

This is the forumla for deception and it is coming from satan in my opinion

The preterists are the scoffers of the last days just as the Lord has said "many shall come in my name and will deceive many" they say where is the promise of His coming?

Your are following the pied pipers of preterism and I bet you have their books on your shelf .... I know who most of them are

And I do teach and preach the good news of the gospel every day by the way

I pastor a church with 500 members

My focus on this forum is Bible prophecy

You are a very presumptious person who obviously speaks without knowing

Accusing for the purpose of trolling the posts of others

Strange behavior indeed .... what is you motive?

You seem to express an attitude of envy and hatred for any who see things differently

Not a good position to be in

Tell me, what you do to further the cause of Jesus Christ

Offline rezar

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Re: Understanding Thessalonians 2
« Reply #15 on: Fri Sep 10, 2010 - 18:24:20 »
God does not show favoritism, & neither do I.

What makes you any holier or any more correct than anyone else opinion or the preterist? I told you (but you ignored a different opinion) that the Jewish scoffers are a thing of the past. (Those in scripture) They were Paul's thorn & both Peter & John write about them.
 More importantly, what makes you any wiser than the Christian scholar that also writes a book on Revelation & end times- & is also a Preacher?

You want me to believe opposite of what is clear in scripture. The book of Revelation is a prophetic book with the symbolic language of the prophets in it.  God even said he "signified it" by his angel...    Got  the power in that? God just told you that the hyperbolic celestial & terrestrial objects & numbers were signified- or with signs to denote something...
Signification - A sign is an entity which signifies another entity. A natural sign is an entity which bears a causal relation to the signified entity, as thunder is a sign of storm.
And if you studied the language of the prophets, this prophetic symbolism confirms that the things & events "signified" in Revelation occurred- but not in their strict literal sense.

You're wrong about preterism. It does not take away our hope & promise of heaven in the afterlife. Yours gives a misplaced hope about the afterlife. It's not eating & drinking with new flesh bodies.

The spirit returns to God who gave it. (Eccl 12:7)













Offline Truth Files

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Re: Understanding Thessalonians 2
« Reply #16 on: Sat Sep 11, 2010 - 04:15:48 »
 I really don't care what you believe rezar ..... that is up to you

But, I wnat you to stop trolling my posts

You are presumptious and have a very antagonistic attitude and because of this I am going to ignor you unless you change your demeanor

Offline rezar

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Re: Understanding Thessalonians 2
« Reply #17 on: Sat Sep 11, 2010 - 10:20:30 »
I really don't care what you believe rezar ..... that is up to you

But, I wnat you to stop trolling my posts

You are presumptious and have a very antagonistic attitude and because of this I am going to ignor you unless you change your demeanor

And you are trying to dominate the board with your threads that you think everyone should read right?

If you don't care about others opinions you shouldn't complain about them not buying yours.

And yes, you're right about something....I'm glad I don't belong to your congregation- if all you teach is dispensationalism (which John the apostle rejected btw) 

You deluding anyone who listens to the fictional nonsense you want them to believe as reality. It's YOUR REALITY- not other Christians or heathen who disagree with you.

Why should others perish & suffer delusions of dispensationalism bc of lack of knowledge?

You act like you own every thread & no one can disagree with you.

Relax, like preterists do about "end-times!" We have REAL things to deal with!




Offline Truth Files

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Re: Understanding Thessalonians 2
« Reply #18 on: Sat Sep 11, 2010 - 10:36:51 »
"If you don't care about others opinions you shouldn't complain about them not buying yours."

I believe you are the one who "complains"

I never do ..... but I do teach the truth which makes you feel uncomfortable

Your "relaxing" comes because you have been deceived by the teachers of preterism .... the scoffers of the last days [2Peter 2:1-22; 3:3-5]

If you continue in this fashion you will find yourself unready and rejected by the Lord [Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 3:16-22]

And I will remind you that the Lord's book of Revelation was written after 70 A.D. .... you need to read it instead of rejecting it as you have been taught to do

So I must warn you that continuing to stand against the Lord's intents leaves you without this hope [1Corinthians 15:19-23] .... whether you die first or if you are alive at His coming

Do not let the devil steal your crown [Revelation 3:11] .... he will do this if you let him

1Peter
5:6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:

5:7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.

5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour

I know that preterism teaches the devil's absence from influence at the present time, but if you believe this you have absolutely no perception of reality

Satan hides in the darkness and he does not want any to be aware of his designs .... and he also promotes the scoffers .... he is the prime scoffer   

 
« Last Edit: Sat Sep 11, 2010 - 10:54:28 by Truth Files »

Offline rezar

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Re: Understanding Thessalonians 2
« Reply #19 on: Sat Sep 11, 2010 - 15:38:14 »
Who died & left you judge of the world?! ::giggle::
Learn something new today:
From Pantelism.com (Preterist/UR),
 
The Two Paths:

Understanding that Israel’s history was coming to a climax, Jesus set before the people two paths – a wide path that led to destruction; and a narrow path that led to life (Matt.7:13-14; Lk.13:24). There is an echo here of Jeremiah 21:8-10, where the ‘way of death’ culminates in the destruction of Jerusalem by the king of Babylon and the way of life is escape from the city and surrender to the Chaldeans. Perhaps Jesus had this in mind when he told the disciples in Judea to escape to the mountains before the end (Matt.24:16-18; Mk.13:14). The choice, and the division in Israel that resulted from it, is also foreshadowed in the distinction in Daniel between, on the one hand, those who ‘forsake the holy covenant’ and, on the other, ‘the people who know their God’ – the wise, who will be refined through suffering and in the end raised to ‘everlasting life’ (Dan.11:30-35; 12:2).

Jesus was in no doubt that Israel was on a course that would lead to the destruction of Jerusalem, the slaughter of a large part of the population, and the shattering of Jewish religious life. When he created havoc in the temple, he angrily cited Jeremiah 7:11: ‘Is my house, whereon my name is called, a den of robbers in your eyes?’ The context is important and Jesus meant his hearers to recall it: the verse forms part of a prophecy of judgment against Jerusalem and the temple that concludes: ‘Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, my anger and my wrath will be poured out on this place, upon man and beast, upon the trees of the field and the fruit of the ground; it will burn and not be quenched’ (20). The ‘way of life’, on the other hand, meant a radical revision of religious, social, and personal priorities and a willingness to trust that the course which Jesus was charting through opposition and suffering towards resurrection and glory was Israel’s only real hope of salvation.

The same choice appears in Paul’s preaching to the Jews in Pisidian Antioch. The forgiveness of the nation’s sins was proclaimed through Jesus – the hope of avoiding catastrophic judgment on the nation (Acts 13:38-39). But if they rejected that forgiveness, they could not expect to escape the sort of national ruin prefigured in Habakkuk 1:5-11 (Acts 13:40-41).
Images of Mass Destruction:

The images of ‘hell’ that appear in the Gospels are prophetic depictions of the coming judgment on Israel. ‘Gehenna’, as Jesus uses the term, is not a place of universal, eternal torment. Jerusalem’s notorious rubbish dump, where perpetual fire consumed the corpses of animals and criminals, has been made an image for the devastation of the city by the Romans, which is conceived not as an arbitrary historical occurrence but as a predictable act of divine judgment. The Jewish War, as Josephus graphically describes it, was the ‘hell of fire’ for a people who persistently defied God and acted unrighteously (cf. Matt.5:22, 29, 30). Jesus concludes his condemnation of the scribes and Pharisees with the warning that the judgment of gehenna ‘will come upon this generation’ and a lament over Jerusalem: ‘Behold, your house is forsaken and desolate’ (Matt.23:36-38). The fact that the judgment of Gehenna is said to be ‘eternal’ or ‘unquenchable’ (Matt.18:8-9; Mk.9:43, 48) is indicative not of endless suffering but of the finality and irreversibility of the judgment. It is the fate of the nation, rather than of individuals, that is principally in view.

The parable of the weeds in the field (Matt.13:24-30, 36-43; cf. the parable of the catch of fish: Matt.13:47-50) describes not the final judgment of all humanity but the judgment of Israel at the end of the age, when the ‘righteous’ in Israel are separated from the unrighteous. Jesus concludes his explanation of the parable by saying ‘the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father’ (Matt.13:43). The allusion to Daniel 12:3 is unmistakable: ‘those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament’. What Jesus has in view is an impending national crisis, comparable to the crisis provoked by the intervention of Antiochus into Jewish religious life: unrighteous Israel will be destroyed, thrown into ‘the furnace of fire’ (Matt.13:42); but the righteous – the wise who ‘shall make many understand, though they shall fall by sword and flame, by captivity and plunder’ (Dan.11:33) – will be raised to eternal life. But this is not a final and universal resurrection. It is the hope given (perhaps exclusively) to a particular group under particular historical conditions. Being the first to suffer, Jesus is also the first to be raised to life in advance of the group of those who will be raised with him (cf. 1 Cor.15:20-23; Col.1:18).