What Does the Millennium Mean to You?

[fish153]

4WD said--

>>>>The point being that there is only one resurrection of the physically dead.  It is at the one return of Jesus.  The millennium is now.  It began at Jesus' first coming; it will end at Jesus' second coming.<<<

I have no idea where you and RED are getting your theology---but the Millenium is a yet FUTURE event. There is absolutely no way it is happening NOW.  We are currently living in the CHURCH AGE, and "age of Grace" which has gone almost two thousand years.  The Millenium is called the Millenium because it is ONE THOUSAND YEARS LONG.  This is actually quite OBVIOUS.

The Binding of Satan has not yet happened. He is bound during the thousand year Millenium because the Millenium is a thousand year period designed to exist with the ABSENCE OF SATAN--it is a SPECIFIC period in time----and is YET FUTURE.

Let me ask you----are the Beast and the False Prophet PRESENTLY in the LAKE OF FIRE?  No---they are not----in fact, no one has been thrown into the Lake of Fire yet.  But in Revelation 20 it speaks of the Beast and False Prophet being thrown into the Lake of Fire.  THEN, SATAN IS BOUND.  It then states that "AFTER THE 1000 YEARS SATAN IS RELEASED"---he is then destroyed and thrown into the Lake of Fire where THE BEAST AND ANTICHRIST ALREADY ARE.

This clearly shows us that the 1000 year period is yet FUTURE---the Beast and False Prophet being thrown into the Lake of Fire is yet Future----and Satan's binding for 1000 years, and final destruction after this period is YET FUTURE.

I am extremely surprised that Red would give you a thumbs up for your posts----and that he would agree that the Millenium is NOW.  That is ridiculous and unbiblical.

"When the thousand years ARE OVER, Satan will be released from his prison  and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever". (Rev. 20:7-10)

Again, i ask---have the Beast and the False Prophet ALREADY been thrown into the Lake of Fire?  No--they have not.  Neither has the devil.  Verses 7-10 above is a YET FUTURE event.  To claim otherwise is to completely ignore Scripture.

[3 Resurrections]

4WD  -  Exactly.

The First Resurrection is indeed speaking of regeneration, as you have said.  "Regeneration" was the word Christ also applied to the day He arose from among the dead in Matthew 19:28.  "And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, IN THE REGENERATION, WHEN THE SON OF MAN SHALL SIT IN THE THRONE OF HIS GLORY, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."  Just when did Jesus "sit in the throne of His glory"?  Peter told the multitude on the day of Pentecost that the ascended Christ was ALREADY sitting in this throne at the right hand of God the Father (Acts 2:29-36).  David's prophecy foretold that Christ would be seated in that throne after His resurrection (i.e., the regeneration of Christ's physical body).

This "regeneration" term can also apply in another sense to a resurrection to spiritual life also.  It just depends on the context.

I agree that the Matthew 27:52-53 saints of the First Resurrection was talking about history, not prophecy.  Guess what that means?  If the First Resurrection is history, then the Millennium which ENDED BEFORE the First Resurrection of Revelation 20 was also history already as John wrote describing it.  This isn't deep.  John included that record of a past event to show just how that past millennium would merge with the events that were soon to come to pass in the near future for his readers. 

Not all of Revelation is prophetic material; there are other instances of historical details and biographical background information that John used to "set the stage", so to speak, for his visions of the near future.  It's just as John wrote when he recorded the words of Christ to himself in Revelation 1:19 (YLT); "Write the things that thou hast seen" (past events), "and the things that are" (present events), "and the things that are about to come after these things" (events in the near future for John's readers).  Just one example of a past event in Revelation was the martyrdom of Antipas in Revelation 2:13. 

Another example is the "child" of the woman, caught up to God and to His throne in Revelation 12:5.  This presented a piece of history when Christ was installed on the "throne of his glory" after His "regeneration" / resurrection, as I have just brought out.

And as for the disciples sitting on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel in Matthew 19:28?  These are the VERY SAME THRONES in Revelation 20:4 with those nameless ones sitting upon them; those with the power of judgment given unto them (as Christ gave this responsibility of the leadership of the church to the disciples in those early years after Pentecost.)  At that point in time, there were still 3 1/2 years remaining (until AD 37) of Daniel's last 70th week (which had started in AD 30).  This last week was when the "messenger of the (New) covenant", Christ,  was "confirming that covenant with many" of Daniel's people of the "12 tribes of Israel".  The disciples' responsibility  was to judge matters coming up in the early church that was launched from Jerusalem at Pentecost.  They rendered decisions on how church practices and doctrines were to be established.  We have several samples of these matters of judgment being made by the disciples in Acts; (matters such as the judgment on Ananias and Sapphira, selecting a replacement for Judas, circumcision questions, picking deacons, setting up care for widows, etc.)

Since the 12 disciples' "thrones of judgment" in Matthew 19:28 are the same as the "thrones of judgment" in Revelation 20:4, they connect perfectly with the context surrounding the Revelation 20:5 First Resurrection for Christ and the Matthew 27:52-53 Firstfruits saints - and the millennium that ENDED on the day of the First Resurrection. 

Conclusion: The literal 1,000-year millennium was history after AD 33's First Resurrection.

[4WD]

4WD said--

>>>>The point being that there is only one resurrection of the physically dead.  It is at the one return of Jesus.  The millennium is now.  It began at Jesus' first coming; it will end at Jesus' second coming.<<<

I have no idea where you and RED are getting your theology---but the Millenium is a yet FUTURE event. There is absolutely no way it is happening NOW.  We are currently living in the CHURCH AGE, and "age of Grace" which has gone almost two thousand years.  The Millenium is called the Millenium because it is ONE THOUSAND YEARS LONG.  This is actually quite OBVIOUS.

The Binding of Satan has not yet happened. He is bound during the thousand year Millenium because the Millenium is a thousand year period designed to exist with the ABSENCE OF SATAN--it is a SPECIFIC period in time----and is YET FUTURE.

Let me ask you----are the Beast and the False Prophet PRESENTLY in the LAKE OF FIRE?  No---they are not----in fact, no one has been thrown into the Lake of Fire yet.  But in Revelation 20 it speaks of the Beast and False Prophet being thrown into the Lake of Fire.  THEN, SATAN IS BOUND.  It then states that "AFTER THE 1000 YEARS SATAN IS RELEASED"---he is then destroyed and thrown into the Lake of Fire where THE BEAST AND ANTICHRIST ALREADY ARE.

This clearly shows us that the 1000 year period is yet FUTURE---the Beast and False Prophet being thrown into the Lake of Fire is yet Future----and Satan's binding for 1000 years, and final destruction after this period is YET FUTURE.

I am extremely surprised that Red would give you a thumbs up for your posts----and that he would agree that the Millenium is NOW.  That is ridiculous and unbiblical.

I gave you a long post in Reply #7 which lays out in detail why you are wrong about the binding of Satan.  That the Millennium is now is absolutely biblical.  It is the theory of premillennialism you espouse that is unbiblical.

[fish153]

4WD said----

>>>I gave you a long post in Reply #7 which lays out in detail why you are wrong about the binding of Satan.  That the Millennium is now is absolutely biblical.  It is the theory of premillennialism you espouse that is unbiblical.<<<

The "long post" you gave is unbiblical.  The Millenium means "1000 years"---the Millenium is not NOW----we are living in the CHURCH AGE (It's been going almost 2000 years now). i showed you through SCRIPTURE that you are wrong. REVELATION 20 shows that the Beast and the False Prophet WILL BE thrown into the Lake of Fire---then Satan will be bound 1000 YEARS---then he is released, AFTER 1000 YEARS--and then thrown into the LAKE OF FIRE, where it says the Beast and the False Prophet ALREADY ARE.  The Millenium is not NOW because they are not in the LAKE OF FIRE, neither is Satan.  And once he is thrown into the Lake of Fire, He, the beast and the false prophet will be tormented day and night forever and ever.  The 1000 years are clearly OVER when Satan is thrown into the Lake of Fire.  But there has not been a 1000 year Millenium YET---but it will come in the FUTURE.

Your theology is extremely flawed 4WD and has no basis in the clear Biblical teaching of Revelation 20.

[4WD]

4WD said----

>>>I gave you a long post in Reply #7 which lays out in detail why you are wrong about the binding of Satan.  That the Millennium is now is absolutely biblical.  It is the theory of premillennialism you espouse that is unbiblical.<<<

The "long post" you gave is unbiblical.  The Millenium means "1000 years"---the Millenium is not NOW----we are living in the CHURCH AGE (It's been going almost 2000 years now). i showed you through SCRIPTURE that you are wrong. REVELATION 20 shows that the Beast and the False Prophet WILL BE thrown into the Lake of Fire---then Satan will be bound 1000 YEARS---then he is released, AFTER 1000 YEARS--and then thrown into the LAKE OF FIRE, where it says the Beast and the False Prophet ALREADY ARE.  The Millenium is not NOW because they are not in the LAKE OF FIRE, neither is Satan.  And once he is thrown into the Lake of Fire, He, the beast and the false prophet will be tormented day and night forever and ever.  The 1000 years are clearly OVER when Satan is thrown into the Lake of Fire.  But there has not been a 1000 year Millenium YET---but it will come in the FUTURE.

Your theology is extremely flawed 4WD and has no basis in the clear Biblical teaching of Revelation 20.

What exactly in my "long post" was unbiblical?  I posted scriptural support for what I presented.  The number 1000 in Revelation 20 is symbolic like it is so often in the rest of Scripture.  Sorry fish, but it is your premillennial theology that is extremely flawed.

[fish153]

4WD---

http://www.biblebb.com/files/issatanbound.htm    by Mike Vlach

The problem with your teaching is that Revelation 20:1-3 completely refutes it-----as this article so astutely shows.  The very fact you say the number 1000 is "symbolic" shows
that you are using your own explanation in place of a clear, biblical explanation of the term.

[4WD]

4WD---

http://www.biblebb.com/files/issatanbound.htm    by Mike Vlach

The problem with your teaching is that Revelation 20:1-3 completely refutes it-----as this article so astutely shows.  The very fact you say the number 1000 is "symbolic" shows
that you are using your own explanation in place of a clear, biblical explanation of the term.

You didn't even read it.  I gave the biblical bases for what i presented.

A part of your [and folks like Mike Vlach's] problem is that you treat Revelation as a sequential description of the last things from the first verse through to the last verse.  And that is wrong.  It is a series of parallel sections, each of which gives a slightly different perspective on the church age and ends with the second coming, judgment  and eternal states.

Revelation 6:17 presents the second coming, with chapter 7 giving a perspective on the final salvation of all the saints.  Then Revelation 11:15-19 presents another view of the second coming following the sounding of the seventh trumpet.   The Revelation presents, yet again, the second coming in Revelation 14:6-20.  Then Revelation 19 presents the second coming in terms of the wedding supper of the lamb and the great supper of God.  All these views of the second coming before the last presentation of the second coming in chapters 20-22.  So clearly it is not the time sequential view that is required per your mistaken premillennialism, but rather five cyclic views of

[fish153]

4WD said----

>>>Revelation 6:17 presents the second coming, with chapter 7 giving a perspective on the final salvation of all the saints.  Then Revelation 11:15-19 presents another view of the second coming following the sounding of the seventh trumpet.   The Revelation presents, yet again, the second coming in Revelation 14:6-20.  Then Revelation 19 presents the second coming in terms of the wedding supper of the lamb and the great supper of God.  All these views of the second coming before the last presentation of the second coming in chapters 20-22.  So clearly it is not the time sequential view that is required per your mistaken premillennialism, but rather five cyclic views <<<<<

According to who? Who says it's cyclic?  You say "so clearly..."  Clearly according to YOU?  When I read Revelation 20:1-3 and take what it says at face value---the Millenium is a yet
future event.  Again, the beast and the false prophet are not yet in the lake of fire----and neither is Satan----yet is says Satan is thrown in after the 1000 years are over----and that he JOINS
the Beast and False Prophet who are ALREADY THERE.  It is very clear that it is speaking of a FUTURE event.  I will just accept what the Word itself says---not someone else's interpretation
of "five cyclic views".

[4WD]

4WD said----

>>>Revelation 6:17 presents the second coming, with chapter 7 giving a perspective on the final salvation of all the saints.  Then Revelation 11:15-19 presents another view of the second coming following the sounding of the seventh trumpet.   The Revelation presents, yet again, the second coming in Revelation 14:6-20.  Then Revelation 19 presents the second coming in terms of the wedding supper of the lamb and the great supper of God.  All these views of the second coming before the last presentation of the second coming in chapters 20-22.  So clearly it is not the time sequential view that is required per your mistaken premillennialism, but rather five cyclic views <<<<<

According to who? Who says it's cyclic?  You say "so clearly..."  Clearly according to YOU?  When I read Revelation 20:1-3 and take what it says at face value---the Millenium is a yet
future event. 

According to whom?  Who says the Millennium is a yet future event?  According to YOU?

[fish153]

4WD----

I am providing scriptures-----you are providing "ideas"  If one reads Revelation 20 and truly considers the context, it is definitely referring to
a future event.  Again, if Satan is NOW CHAINED and bound then the Beast and the False prophet are both in the Lake of Fire
RIGHT NOW.  Because Satan is not bound UNTIL they are thrown in FIRST. 

But of course, we know that the Beast and the False Prophet have not yet been thrown into the Lake of Fire don't we? Unless you have some "idea"
you want to propose that would put them there right now.

Your theology without these "ideas" is literally full of holes.  Trust the Scriptures and what they say---not the ideas of men. Amillenialism is an "idea".

[4WD]

4WD----

I am providing scriptures-----you are providing "ideas"  If one reads Revelation 20 and truly considers the context, it is definitely referring to
a future event.  Again, if Satan is NOW CHAINED and bound then the Beast and the False prophet are both in the Lake of Fire
RIGHT NOW.  Because Satan is not bound UNTIL they are thrown in FIRST. 

But of course, we know that the Beast and the False Prophet have not yet been thrown into the Lake of Fire don't we? Unless you have some "idea"
you want to propose that would put them there right now.

Your theology without these "ideas" is literally full of holes.  Trust the Scriptures and what they say---not the ideas of men. Amillenialism is an "idea".

And you think Premillennialism is not an "idea" ? ?  That is funny.  Yes, trust the Scriptures.  You are interpreting Revalation 20:1-6 totally apart from all the rest of Scripture.   I gave you just some from the rest of Scripture that says you are wrong.

[Yahu]

Scripture states that to Yah (God), a day is as a thousand years.  This implies to me that there is a week worth of thousand year 'days' and the last day of the week is the 'day of rest'.  That implies that the millennium period is the time from year 6001-7000 after the creation of Adam.  Scripture also references the millennial period as 'rest'.

Genesis also states that the 'age of man' (his days) will be 120 'time periods' but that time period is generally translated as years BUT there are many time periods that Yah uses.  A Jubilee is a 50 year period and 120 Jubilees is also 6000 years as the time for Yah to struggle with man.  After 6000 years, there is a change where Yah will not 'strive with man'.

Gen 6:3  And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

[fish153]

4WD---

Looks like we have hit an impasse,  lol.  Thank the Lord that the Millenium period is not something upon which our salvation rests. 

God bless you my friend!

[3 Resurrections]

4WD  -  Thumbs up for mentioning the "cyclical" pattern of recapitulation that Revelation employs.  You and I may differ on where those patterns sit on history's timeline, but yes, parallel accounts are present in Revelation - no doubt about it.  To be sure, there are sequences of events WITHIN each account, but the entire book is NOT one long sequence of continuous events from start to finish.


Yahu  -  I, too, see II Peter 3:8 as a clear indication that God intends human history to last 7,000 years (a week of 1,000 years per day) from creation to close.  This was "one thing" - one vital point - that Peter wanted to make sure his readers weren't ignorant of.  Most have assumed that this verse simply reduces the measurement of time into something meaningless and immaterial in God's eyes.  I believe that is a gross distortion of Peter's intended message.  The principle of having a "Day" represent another block of time is an often-employed piece of symbolism in all of scripture, and Peter was re-visiting this principle for his readers - and us.

The point at which I would depart from your statements is the particular place on history's 7,000-year timeline where you position the Revelation 20 millennium.  It is not positioned to fall at the very end of the timeline as the 7th "Day".  It sits exactly in the middle - the 4th "Day" - with 3 millennia of human history on either side of it.

During the first 3 millennia, Satan operated freely among the nations.  Paul made reference to this in Acts 17:30, calling this the "times past of this ignorance"; a time when God "suffered all nations to walk in their own ways" (Acts 14:16).  This period when Satan operated freely lasted until his binding during the entire 4th "Day".  This millennium (of Rev. 20) began with Solomon's temple foundation being laid down in 968/967 BC.  David's son Solomon was called a "Man of Rest" by God Himself in I Chron. 22:9, even before his birth.  His very given name of Solomon was to be an indication of the peace and rest that God would give to Israel in those days.

The fame of Solomon's kingdom, his wisdom, and the glory of the temple he was instructed to build, as well as the effect of all the major and minor prophets' ministries during this literal thousand years - by all these means, the knowledge of the God of Israel consequently spread into all the nations.  By all these means, the deceptive power of Satan over those nations was bound as it had not been before then.   They may have still acted in a corrupt manner, but at the very least, they could not claim ignorance as an excuse after they had heard about Israel's God.

This binding continued in an even more restrictive sense by Christ and the disciples casting out unclean spirits in the years before the crucifixion.  In the year AD 33, when Christ had ascended to His Father after the First Resurrection, the millennium ENDED, as I have laid out in comments # 26 and #36 above.  Satan was then "loosed" for his "little season" of renewed deception of the nations, until his destruction at the close of AD 70.  Whether anyone acknowledges the scripture proofs of this or not, Satanic and demonic evil have not been a factor to contend with in this world since the closing days of AD 70 and Jerusalem's destruction.  Human depravity is more than sufficient to supply all the evil the world has contained since then, though many refuse to admit it.

At present, we are 16 years away from the beginning of the last 7th "Day" of human history, starting in 2033.  The idea of "rest" featured in any Sabbath period will be a hallmark that characterizes this last 1,000 years of human history.  Just how God imposes that "rest" period on the world as a whole is totally up to Him.  All I know is that God always promised the inexorable growth of His kingdom, and that nothing can withstand His purposes for the "increase of His government and His peace".  His "word will NOT return unto Him void", but it will accomplish His intended purpose, in spite of the evil that comes from the hearts of mankind. 

I would agree with fish153; it is comforting to know that our salvation is not resting on how precise our knowledge is concerning the Rev. 20 millennium, but my optimism and an inner peace regarding conditions in the world is immensely increased when I can catch a sense of God's design and where He is going with all this.

[Yahu]

Yahu  -  I, too, see II Peter 3:8 as a clear indication that God intends human history to last 7,000 years (a week of 1,000 years per day) from creation to close.  This was "one thing" - one vital point - that Peter wanted to make sure his readers weren't ignorant of.  Most have assumed that this verse simply reduces the measurement of time into something meaningless and immaterial in God's eyes.  I believe that is a gross distortion of Peter's intended message.  The principle of having a "Day" represent another block of time is an often-employed piece of symbolism in all of scripture, and Peter was re-visiting this principle for his readers - and us.

The point at which I would depart from your statements is the particular place on history's 7,000-year timeline where you position the Revelation 20 millennium.  It is not positioned to fall at the very end of the timeline as the 7th "Day".  It sits exactly in the middle - the 4th "Day" - with 3 millennia of human history on either side of it.

During the first 3 millennia, Satan operated freely among the nations.  Paul made reference to this in Acts 17:30, calling this the "times past of this ignorance"; a time when God "suffered all nations to walk in their own ways" (Acts 14:16).  This period when Satan operated freely lasted until his binding during the entire 4th "Day".  This millennium (of Rev. 20) began with Solomon's temple foundation being laid down in 968/967 BC.  David's son Solomon was called a "Man of Rest" by God Himself in I Chron. 22:9, even before his birth.  His very given name of Solomon was to be an indication of the peace and rest that God would give to Israel in those days.

Actually there is also more evidence for my position. 

I don't disagree with you about Satan being bound after his 4th day but I do disagree with who/what Satan is and how long he has influenced the world.  (Though I have never heard this before.)  The nations going their own way didn't start until the beginning of the 70 nations descent from Noah, after the flood.  That would move your timeline by 2000 years.  I totally disagree that the serpent in the garden is our current Satan.  Satan isn't even mentioned in scripture until the book of Job during the time of the Exodus.  It is pure assumption that the individual we call Lucifer/Satan has been around since some mythical pre-adamic rebellion.  That doctrine was introduced by Augustine and is a resent doctrine not held by any OT figure.  Scripture is clear.  Peter clearly states that all the angels that sinned were bound in Tartarus at the time of the flood.  Tartarus is ONLY used that once in scripture and in the Greek is the lowest hell which is were the immortal titans from the previous age were imprisoned.  The Olympians were four individuals that helped imprison those titans but we also have four more angels bound later at the Euphrates.  I believe that occurred at Babel because of the rise of paganism there.

My expertise is on the ancient paganism presented in scripture as well as outside study.  I don't see Lucifer/Satan as the serpent in Eden but as the ancient pagan sun god, the child of another pagan deity that didn't rise to power until Babel.  Lucifer is called 'ben Shachar'.  Shachar is the name of another Canaanite deity also referenced in Job 38, the angel that is source of the wicked.  The ancient cuneiform from Babylon clearly states that Adad (the thunderer) and his son Shemesh (sun god) are both adjudicators, ie Satans and talks about the four Apkallu that taught men after the great flood, the four river gods that watered the garden before the flood.

The reference in Revelation about the dragon pulling down 1/3 of the stars is an event DURING the tribulation and is a reference to the 'hosts of heaven' that all over the OT is referenced with the pagan worship of the Sun, Moon, Baal, constallations, planets and 'all the host of heaven/sky'.  It is a reference to pulling down 1/3 of the pagan principalities of the air NOT some mythical rebellion of 1/3 of the angels of Yah.

There are too many pagan references all over the OT that most scholars totally miss if they have no understanding of the pagan religions in conflict against Yah and Israel.

Now the other reference I find to when the millennium will occur is in Gen 1:1 in the original Hebrew.  I suggest you study out the meaning of the 'aleph-tav' as a reference to Yeshua and have an understanding of the paleo-hebrew word pictures and the multiple layers of meaning presenting in scripture.  This 'aleph-tav' is what John 1 is referencing as the 'WORD' in the beginning.  BTW, 'in the beginning' or B'rashyt is the Jewish name for the book of Genesis.  'Aleph-tav' occurs twice in Gen 1:1 as place holders for which day of the week the Messiah comes and returns.  It is used as the fourth word and the end of the sixth compound word, ie 'vav-aleph-tav' (with the 'vav' the word 'AND').  Yah laid out his time table in the very 1st verse of scripture.  Yeshua's 1st coming in the 4th day since creation and at the end of the sixth day, right before the day of rest.  There are 7 words in Gen 1:1 in the Hebrew each corresponding to a day of a thousand years.

[notreligus]

The Four Gospels

This reference to multiples gospels is as much soteriological as eschatological but I would ask those who have an original Scofield Reference Bible to take a look at page 1343.  The reprint, which I own, is the same as the original.   This certainly applies to this thread concerning the Millennium.   

Cyrus Scofield, the American counterpart to the British John Darby, was the main proponent of Dispensationalism in America.   Many thousands of Scofield Bibles have been sold and Scofield's commentary is accepted by many as extremely authoritative in the interpretation the Scripture and end-times scenarios. 

On page 1343 of the Scofield Bible, Scofield lists the four Gospels presented in the New Testament, and they are as follows (paraphrased):

1. The gospel of the kingdom. This is the preaching of the good news that God had promised to set up an earthly kingdom. This kingdom was to be political, spiritual, universal, and of the Israelites; and was to be ruled over by Jesus as the greater Son of David. It was to last one thousand years, or the Millennial reign of Christ.

2. The gospel of the grace of God. This is the good news that Jesus died, was buried, and that he rose again. Scofield says that this gospel saved "wholly apart from forms and ordinances," with the implication being that this is not true of some of the other three gospels.

3. The everlasting gospel. This will be preached by Jews after the church is raptured, but before the beginning of the millennium. Scofield says of this gospel that it is neither the gospel of the kingdom, nor of grace. It is the good news that those who were saved during the "great tribulation" will enter the millennial kingdom.

4. The gospel which Paul calls "my gospel." This is the gospel of grace, and it differs from that which was preached by Christ and the apostles! Paul has personally been given new insight into the "mystery" of the church and this is included in "Paul's gospel."  (Hyper Dispensationals claim that Paul was the first member of the Body of Christ - my addition.) 

According to this theory of four gospels, the first of them was preached by John the Baptist and by our Lord, until the kingdom that offered to the Jews was rejected by the Jews and thus it had to be postponed while the church age was ushered in by the death of our Lord on the cross.

After His plan to establish a kingdom was frustrated by the Jews, our Lord changed to the second form of the gospel and began to preach that he would be crucified, buried, and resurrected. This gospel was preached by our Lord during the remainder of his ministry and then by the apostles until the time of Paul.

A fuller revelation concerning the church, which neither Jesus nor any of the other apostles had been permitted to disclose, Paul began to preach the fourth of the distinctive gospels held by Dispensationalism. In other words, what Paul termed "my gospel" was quite different than that preached by our Lord.  This is the same gospel, according to this dispensational theory, that we are supposed to preach today.  Note, we are not to preach the gospel preached by our Lord, but that which was preached by Paul.  What Christ preached was for the Jews.

Number three of these gospels will not be preached until after the present "church age" is ended and the church has been taken out of the world. Then, after the "everlasting gospel" has been preached and the millennium established, Jewish converts will begin to preach the "gospel of the kingdom" again. Note that this gospel of the kingdom is the first gospel preached by our Lord, which gospel was rejected and then postponed. Whereas Jesus failed in His presentation of it, the Jewish nation will succeed. 

In view of the fact that this theory holds to four distinct gospels, and in view of the fact that each one is said to bring about salvation, it is difficult to sweep under a rug that Dispensationalism offers four distinct plans of salvation.   
 

[Amo]

One thought, and then I will step back and give notreligus his rightful place in guiding this thread in the direction he so desires.

You contradicted yourself. You plainly said above these words: Sir, this surrounding the holy city takes place BEFORE the second coming of Jesus Christ for his TRUE CITY the Jerusalem which is from above according to the election of grace. Luke spoke of this with these words: These words fit perfectly with Revelation 20 and the little season spoken of by John. I would love to give a few thoughts on these scriptures to prove it, with notreligus permission, since he did indeed start this thread, and I have no desire to offend my brother by not staying on the course he desires.

There will be no desolation of the New Jerusalem. You are applying prophecy concerning literal Jerusalem destroyed by the Romans, with prophecy concerning the New Jerusalem.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Do you think the thousand years expired around before the destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman armies in 70 AD? Please do tell this version of prophecy. I made no contradiction. It is your own understanding which necessitates the contradiction, not mine.

[Choir Loft]

What does the Millennium mean to you?

There are two basic traditional beliefs.  One is that this current "church age" is the Millennium and it is not tied to a specific 1,000 year time period.  The other is the belief that after the seven-year Tribulation Period Jesus will return and rule over His people for 1,000 years on this Earth.   These two basic beliefs are oftentimes right where the knowledge behind these beliefs end.  For example, who are "His people"?   That's even more important to understand.   

What are your thoughts?   

In August of 2017 a solar eclipse, visible over much of the continental United States, created a wave of interest.   Some people believe it signaled a harbinger of bad tidings for America.   Maybe it did and maybe it didn't.

Biblical prophecy centers and focuses upon Israel.    When celestial events coincide with Hebrew holidays or observances it usually means something.   Discussions rage over these signs in the heavens.

The year 2018 will be an unusual marker for earthly events and celestial observations.
- It will be the 70th anniversary of the establishment of the modern State of Israel.
- It will fulfill the 51st anniversary of the liberation of Jerusalem by the IDF.
- There will be a total of 5 solar and lunar eclipses visible in Israel during the year.   All of them will coincide with Hebrew holidays, celebrations and observances.

There will not be another such alignment of eclipses in Israel for one thousand years.......1 millennium.

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

[Choir Loft]

The subject of the millennium wasn't of great importance until the mid-19th century.  At that time numerous cults and doctrinal spin offs became popular in America.  Some of them continue to this day.   One subject is the millennium, which has been grossly misinterpreted by the general population to the profit of crazed authors and publishers alike.

If the Bible is examined correctly, the millennium is a period of time in which the earth will not be inhabited by mankind.   Those who are saved will be taken to heaven (in one form or another).  Those who are not found in the Book of Life will die from wars pestilence and plague.   The earth will be barren and devoid of human inhabitants. 

The earth will enjoy one thousand years of sabbath rest.

Consider that the Bible indicates time flow in a series of 7.   Each week is seven days, the last of which is for rest.   According to Mosaic Law, years were grouped in sevens as well.  The seventh year was a year of rest for the land.  Called shemitah, it was to be observed always.  Jews never observed it and because of this they were taken captive to the land of the Chaldeans until the full amount of sabbath rest was spent for the land.  The Jubilee year was a political and financial reset and was to be observed after seven shemitahs.  Seven is the number of rest.

According to the Biblical account of the fall and redemption of man, it has been six thousand years since the fall of Adam and the beginning of the chronicle.   The end of the age approaches.  The seventh group of one thousand years, called the millennium, is about to commence.   The globe will have its rest after which New Jerusalem will descend and human history will reach its climax. 

The millennium is a period of sabbath rest.

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

[notreligus]

The subject of the millennium wasn't of great importance until the mid-19th century.  At that time numerous cults and doctrinal spin offs became popular in America.  Some of them continue to this day.   One subject is the millennium, which has been grossly misinterpreted by the general population to the profit of crazed authors and publishers alike.

If the Bible is examined correctly, the millennium is a period of time in which the earth will not be inhabited by mankind.   Those who are saved will be taken to heaven (in one form or another).  Those who are not found in the Book of Life will die from wars pestilence and plague.   The earth will be barren and devoid of human inhabitants. 

The earth will enjoy one thousand years of sabbath rest.

Consider that the Bible indicates time flow in a series of 7.   Each week is seven days, the last of which is for rest.   According to Mosaic Law, years were grouped in sevens as well.  The seventh year was a year of rest for the land.  Called shemitah, it was to be observed always.  Jews never observed it and because of this they were taken captive to the land of the Chaldeans until the full amount of sabbath rest was spent for the land.  The Jubilee year was a political and financial reset and was to be observed after seven shemitahs.  Seven is the number of rest.

According to the Biblical account of the fall and redemption of man, it has been six thousand years since the fall of Adam and the beginning of the chronicle.   The end of the age approaches.  The seventh group of one thousand years, called the millennium, is about to commence.   The globe will have its rest after which New Jerusalem will descend and human history will reach its climax. 

The millennium is a period of sabbath rest.

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Hyper-Dispensationals agree that one version of Dispensational teaching about the Millennium, that Jesus will reign over both Jews and Gentiles for 1000 years, does not make sense.  Therefore they have borrowed a portion of what you're claiming here.   But they believe that it is the Church, which is made up mostly of Gentiles, that will be taken to Heaven for 1,000 years while Israel remains on the Earth, and the Church will never return to Earth but remain on the new planetary abode called the New Jerusalem which will hover over the New Earth for eternity.   The Church's ultimate destiny is the retain her heavenly reward and Israel will have her Earthly reward.   

I believe that Jesus the Christ has already reconciled ALL of mankind back to God Almighty, and that reconciliation is received by faith in Christ's finished work.  The millennium - which refers to a long period of time and it does not have to refer to a precise 1,000 year time period - is right now with Christ reigning over His spiritual kingdom from Heaven.  He is the Great High Priest of the Church, our Mediator and Intercessor.  (If this is not true then we can rip out the Book of Hebrews from our Bibles.)   He will return and establish a permanent Earthly kingdom - not a temporary kingdom for the Jews to have another 1,000 crack at trying to accept Him as Messiah after they were already told about Him by Moses and the Prophets and chose to deny Him.   A remnant of Jews believed in Christ, and more have come to Him over the past two thousand plus years.  More will still come to Him, but a special 1,000 year period is not extended to them.  If that were true then that would mean that Ephesians is another book we can tear out of the Bible and God did not envision His people, the Church, before the foundation of the world.   If Jesus did not accomplish those things which are revealed in the New Testament - the fulfillment of the Old Testament - and establish the New Covenant then we can rip out even more of the Bible and be left with 49 Books.   And, of course, the Jews, who practice the religion of Judaism, also add the Talmud and the Pseudopigrapha to the body of writings that they accept as authoritative.   

Those who cry "that's an allegorical interpretation of the Bible to believe that the Millennium is not a literal one-thousand years" are interpreting the New Covenant as allegorical as they deny that it in effect now but is really meant for the Jews, Israel.   Those are the false teachers who have confused the people making up the Church to the point that there are at least a dozen views of end-times.  I've posted at least seven views of rabbinical beliefs about the Millennium and these rabbis are supposed to represent the people of God for whom God has designed His eternal plan.  At least that is the claim of the majority of Dispensationals who are content to be a second-tier people even though Christ died for everyone!   

[dpr]

The future thousand years of Revelation 20 is a prophecy still future to us today, and will begin when Jesus Christ returns to this earth to reign on David's throne, on earth, as promised. Our Lord Jesus is presently sitting on the right hand of The Father's throne in Heaven. David's throne is, and has always been an earthly throne.

Many key events about this future thousand years period are outlined in God's Word and are simple to understand. The last 9 chapters of the Book of Ezekiel are all about that future 1,000 years period and parallels events given in Revelation involving God's River of the waters of life, and the tree of life. Even in Revelation 22:14-15 Jesus showed us the wicked will still exist in that time, but will be outside the gates of the holy city, but the righteous will have right to the tree of life.

[n2thelight]

The millennium will be a time of teaching and or being taught the true Word of God.
Those being taught did not overcome ,although they have been changed to their spiritual bodies,as we all shall be,theirs are still mortal

Those who over came will reign with Christ and teach those who still have a chance to die the 2nd death.

[RB]

My expertise is on the ancient paganism presented in scripture as well as outside study.

Your post speaks loud and clear that most of your positions are outside of the word of God. Your doctrine is layer with ancient paganism which children of faith reject, We believe in Sola Scriptura for our "doctrine and practical godliness" in our daily walk, as we live in this world.

The future thousand years of Revelation 20 is a prophecy still future to us today, and will begin when Jesus Christ returns to this earth to reign on David's throne, on earth, as promised.

This is incorrect and goes against God's  testimony to us. We are living in Jesus' spiritual kingdom NOW where he is Lord and Christ sitting on David's throne just as Peter declared to those on the day of Pentecost. At the coming of Jesus again as promised, he THEN will deliver THIS KINGDOM up to his Father that God may be seen as ALL in ALL by the faithful. Jesus is NOW reigning and will do so UNTIL God puts all his enemies under his feet, that process is an ongoing process that is soon to be completed. Proof text, here are two places in the scriptures to consider for now: Acts 2:22-36; 1st Corinthians 15:20-28; etc.

The millennium will be a time of teaching and or being taught the true Word of God. Those being taught did not overcome, although they have been changed to their spiritual bodies, as we all shall be, theirs are still mortal Those who overcame will reign with Christ and teach those who still have a chance to die the 2nd death.

Do you "think" you can prove what you saying with God's word? I know you cannot~you are most likely just repeating something that you have heard others say, if not, then prove what you are saying with scriptures.

If the Bible is examined correctly, the millennium is a period of time in which the earth will not be inhabited by mankind.   Those who are saved will be taken to heaven (in one form or another).  Those who are not found in the Book of Life will die from wars pestilence and plague.   The earth will be barren and devoid of human inhabitants.   The earth will enjoy one thousand years of sabbath rest.

Prove what you are saying with scriptures which you cannot do if you think otherwise, then speak and support your position with scriptures, and then and only then can we test your words, and WE SHALL.

4WD  -  Thumbs up for mentioning the "cyclical" pattern of recapitulation that Revelation employs.  You and I may differ on where those patterns sit on history's timeline, but yes, parallel accounts are present in Revelation - no doubt about it.  To be sure, there are sequences of events WITHIN each account, but the entire book is NOT one long sequence of continuous events from start to finish.

This is a very true assessment of Revelation concerning this point.

but the entire book is NOT one long sequence of continuous events from start to finish

One "following" the other~to this we fully agree.

[dpr]

Your post speaks loud and clear that most of your positions are outside of the word of God. Your doctrine is layer with ancient paganism which children of faith reject, We believe in Sola Scriptura for our "doctrine and practical godliness" in our daily walk, as we live in this world.

The above response of your's is to someone else, not me.


Beginning here is your response to me, which you should have documented in your post:

This is incorrect and goes against God's  testimony to us. We are living in Jesus' spiritual kingdom NOW where he is Lord and Christ sitting on David's throne just as Peter declared to those on the day of Pentecost.

You are missing a lot of Scripture in your Bible study then, because it is David's earthly throne that is promised to our Lord Jesus (Luke 1:31-32). Jesus at present is set down at the right hand of The Father's throne (Hebrews 12:2; Hebrews 8:1). When our Lord Jesus returns is when He will sit upon David's throne, an earthly throne (Matt.19:28; Matt.25:31). This reveals our Lord Jesus' Kingdom is not meant to only be a spiritual Kingdom, but a literal physical Kingdom here on earth also. Even the Old Testament prophets gave good account of that future physical Kingdom which has yet to occur. Until Jesus returns, that physical Kingdom fulfillment won't happen. Yet it will... happen, as written. So please, let's not act like it is not written about in God's Word, because it is, a whole lot as a matter of fact.

At the coming of Jesus again as promised, he THEN will deliver THIS KINGDOM up to his Father that God may be seen as ALL in ALL by the faithful. Jesus is NOW reigning and will do so UNTIL God puts all his enemies under his feet, that process is an ongoing process that is soon to be completed. Proof text, here are two places in the scriptures to consider for now: Acts 2:22-36; 1st Corinthians 15:20-28; etc.

I see that Acts 2 Scripture about our Lord Jesus used all the time, when it is being taken totally out of its context about the throne. The throne being spoken of in the Acts 2:30 is speaking of David's throne. And it's true that The Father did not allow our Lord Jesus' flesh to see corruption, and He did raise our Lord Jesus from the dead. But David's throne is still... promised to Jesus. Our Lord Jesus is not yet sitting upon David's throne, because David's throne is NOT in Heaven, never was. It is an earthly throne.

And instead of reading an idea 'into' that Acts 2 Scripture, try reading what it actually says...

Acts 2:33-35
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, 'The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.'
KJV

Jesus is sitting by the right hand of The Father in Heaven today. That's what that Scripture actually says there. And His sitting there is dependent upon Christ's enemies being made His footstool. That means Jesus won't sit upon David's throne until all His enemies are made His footstool. Has that happened today? No. There are still quite a few nations today that reject our Lord Jesus, especially in the nation of Israel! Don't be deceived!

Do you "think" you can prove what you saying with God's word? I know you cannot~you are most likely just repeating something that you have heard others say, if not, then prove what you are saying with scriptures.Prove what you are saying with scriptures which you cannot do if you think otherwise, then speak and support your position with scriptures, and then and only then can we test your words, and WE SHALL. This is a very true assessment of Revelation concerning this point. One "following" the other~to this we fully agree.

You shouldn't make such haughty false assumptions. I just picked your false assumptions about the Scriptures you quoted all apart. And I'm not here to play games or show how learned I am. I'm not out to destroy the majority who post the most here that really reveal they follow doctrines of men more that the actual Word of God as written.

[RB]

The above response of your's is to someone else, not me.

And I noted that~Quote from: Yahu on Thu Aug 10, 2017 - 15:03:26

Beginning here is your response to me, which you should have documented in your post:

I did! Look at the beginning of my quote: Quote from: dpr

You shouldn't make such haughty false assumptions. I just picked your false assumptions about the Scriptures you quoted all apart. And I'm not here to play games or show how learned I am. I'm not out to destroy the majority who post the most here that really reveal they follow doctrines of men more that the actual Word of God as written.

First, you took three different quotes to three different people and put them all in your quote box back to me as though I posted all of them to you~kinda deceitful if you ask me.

I just picked your false assumptions about the Scriptures you quoted all apart

Sir, that's wishful thinking coming from a proud spirit~you did not even come close of proving what I teach as being false and you certainly did not establish your premillennial doctrine as the truth, not even close. Why are you spending the morning going back and posting from threads that are at least a year and half old some even started four years ago? (I'm speaking about all that you have posted today~as I looked at them, most were started more than a year and a half ago up to four years!)  Do you not have any new thing to add, or are you just trying to pick a fight? If you desire to discuss the millennium doctrine with me, then let us do so with a new thread, I will gladly oblige your desire, no problem. 

[seekingHiswisdom]

If the Bible is examined correctly, the millennium is a period of time in which the earth will not be inhabited by mankind.   Those who are saved will be taken to heaven (in one form or another).  Those who are not found in the Book of Life will die from wars pestilence and plague.   The earth will be barren and devoid of human inhabitants. 

The earth will enjoy one thousand years of sabbath rest.


The millennium is a period of sabbath rest.

  (quite... it worked)

The frown gif is more for me actually answering a 2 1/2 year old reply as much as the actual comment in that reply!

Choir Loft...

IF this be so then why

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

According to you, 30 months ago.... this would be false in the holy bible because there would be no one for Satan to deceive as the earth will be void of any living person.

UNLESS you believe that God will come and repopulate it again?

BUT PERHAPS YOU can answer a question I have often posted but others have totally ignored.

WHY would Satan  be loosed out of his prison to deceive the nations further. Knowing the end why wouldn't God simply
leave him bound up?  I have my own theories but they shall stay with me.

[dpr]

And I noted that~Quote from: Yahu on Thu Aug 10, 2017 - 15:03:26I did! Look at the beginning of my quote: Quote from: dprFirst, you took three different quotes to three different people and put them all in your quote box back to me as though I posted all of them to you~kinda deceitful if you ask me.Sir, that's wishful thinking coming from a proud spirit~you did not even come close of proving what I teach as being false and you certainly did not establish your premillennial doctrine as the truth, not even close. Why are you spending the morning going back and posting from threads that are at least a year and half old some even started four years ago? (I'm speaking about all that you have posted today~as I looked at them, most were started more than a year and a half ago up to four years!)  Do you not have any new thing to add, or are you just trying to pick a fight? If you desire to discuss the millennium doctrine with me, then let us do so with a new thread, I will gladly oblige your desire, no problem.

Yeah I see it documented now, in small dimmed letters. My bad.

I have been away, and I am catching up. So if you have a problem with my responding to old posts that are addressed to me, then I can't help that. Grow up instead of crying.

And the main subject of my last post wasn't really a discussion about the millennium. I showed how your doctrine wrongly interprets the Acts 2 Scripture you referenced.