What is the name of the Anti-Christ, does he have a name?

[3 Resurrections]

Hi RB,

You are COMPLETELY IGNORING the fact that John said in Revelation 12:12 that the devil’s “SHORT TIME” of oppressing the inhabitants of the earth and sea had ALREADY BEGUN at the very time he was writing.  The devil had great wrath because he knew back then that his time to exist and do his deception of the nations was limited only to that present “LITTLE SEASON”.  After that, God had promised to slay him; a fact which was producing Satan’s urgency back in those days.

You are transporting that first-century “SHORT TIME” and “LITTLE SEASON” into our modern days, and it can’t be done.  That’s because of the *PRESENT TENSE* LANGUAGE that John was using for a current short period of time for Satan’s existence back in HIS days, not ours.  He said that “the Devil *IS* COME down unto you...”

Moreover, you have your conditions for the end of history flipped upside down.  The kingdom of God ADVANCES more and more towards the close of fallen man’s history.  It does not implode at that time, as you are presenting.  That “implosion” you are recognizing was the first century Great Tribulation period - a specific time, not to be confused with later periods of ordinary tribulation for the saints of God.   Your doom-and-gloom paradigm with Satan’s deceptive work prevailing and increasing until the end of human history is running directly counter to the examples Christ gave of the mustard seed, the growth of leaven, Daniel’s growing rock, and the INCREASE of Christ’s government and peace as human history progresses towards its culmination of the final resurrection.

Moreover, you still have not addressed why there is CONTINUED HUMAN HISTORY that comes *AFTER* THE GREAT TRIBULATION AND CHRIST’S RETURN.  Remember? That Great Tribulation with its “false christs” was supposed to be like no other tribulation before it, but also like no other period of tribulation AFTER IT (Matt 24:21).  “No, nor EVER *SHALL* BE”.

Moreover, you are skipping over the fact that the actual physical Temple in Jerusalem with its “SECRET CHAMBERS” (that collected  donated funds for dispersing charitable goods to the poor in Israel) was going to still be in existence when those “false christs and false prophets” were manifested (Matt. 24:24-26).  These “secret chambers” are speaking of the LITERAL JERUSALEM TEMPLE LOCATION - not a symbolic reference to the church in our days.

Oddly enough, it is usually the Full Preterist who is accused of assigning a symbolic and metaphoric meaning to everything prophetic.  But that is exactly what you are doing, RB.  Nothing is literal at all with your eschatological interpretations - everything is only a symbol of something else. 

Pregnant women, or nursing women aren’t really females with a nursing baby. 

Fleeing Judea for the mountains isn’t really going on the run as a refugee - for you, its believers leaving corrupt church doctrine instead. 

Famines and earthquakes and pestilences?  Not literal with you. 

Beatings in the synagogues, imprisonment, and being delivered up to high priest rulers, and the council of the Sanhedrin?  Nah, only symbolic in your thinking.   By the way, when was the last time you were beaten in a synagogue or imprisoned?

The city of Jerusalem being “surrounded by armies” interpreted by Luke as being the “abomination of desolation”?  Just a metaphor supposedly.

The “goodly stones” of Jerusalem’s Temple all being thrown down?  Symbolic only in your understanding.

This is all a bit imbalanced.  You are working overtime to erase all of Christ’s clear-cut warnings of impending spiritual AND physical troubles for that first century’s imminent expectation.  I can appreciate that you have spent some 50 years trying to refine your position on these things.  That’s a lot of effort.  But personally, I have had to toss out almost 50 years of eschatological error from my youth upwards.  It can be done, if necessary to follow where truth leads,  which I know is your overriding concern.

[RB]

Pregnant women, or nursing women aren’t really females with a nursing baby. 

Fleeing Judea for the mountains isn’t really going on the run as a refugee - for you, its believers leaving corrupt church doctrine instead. 

Famines and earthquakes and pestilences?  Not literal with you. 

Beatings in the synagogues, imprisonment, and being delivered up to high priest rulers, and the council of the Sanhedrin?  Nah, only symbolic in your thinking.   By the way, when was the last time you were beaten in a synagogue or imprisoned?

The city of Jerusalem being “surrounded by armies” interpreted by Luke as being the “abomination of desolation”?  Just a metaphor supposedly.

The “goodly stones” of Jerusalem’s Temple all being thrown down?  Symbolic only in your understanding.

I did address your question concerning the sabbath day and in winter fleeing when they saw the abomination of desolation~in another thread, which I will go THERE and finish Matthew 24 and WILL address every point you are bringing up in this thread~ NO PROBLEM

Symbolic only in your understanding.

NOT if one can take the SCRIPTURES ALONE and prove the use of Jesus' words, which we can do. Are not Daniel and Revelation BOTH written using highly symbolical language? Especially so is Revelation~and MUCH of Jesus' teaching was done in this fashion.

John 16:29~"His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb."

Quite often he did, and I could give many, many proofs of this.  I must be off to some meetings....later, RB

[3 Resurrections]

Hi RB,

What I would rather you addressed are the TIME LIMITATIONS connected to the following points that I brought out that you have yet to give an explanation for.  I have emphasized these points several times, but all I hear is a deafening silence from you about them.

#1)  The Devil’s THEN-PRESENT “SHORT TIME” and “LITTLE SEASON” that was already in place as John was writing back then (Rev.12:12).   Likewise how long scripture limits that “short time” and “little season” to be (i.e., shorter than the 40 years that make a “long season”).

#2)  The increasing ADVANCE of God’s kingdom towards the close of human history - not the disintegration and corruption of that kingdom that were present during the last days of the first century’s Great Tribulation.

#3)  The fact that an extended span of history with other periods of regular tribulation for the saints FOLLOWS AFTER the Great Tribulation along with Christ’s IMMEDIATE return coming at the end of that Great Tribulation (Matt. 24:21 & 29-31).

#4)  The actual still-existing presence of Jerusalem’s “secret chambers” where the first-century anti-christs were rumored to be appearing (Matt. 24:26).  These “secret chambers” of the physical Jerusalem Temple were destroyed when God threw down every one of the actual “goodly stones” that composed the physical temple structure, which the Jews had idolized.

#5)  Your failure to acknowledge SCRIPTURE’S OWN DEFINITION in Ezekiel 12:21-28 of what an “AT HAND” prophecy means (particularly in reference to all of Revelation’s unsealed prophecies that were then “at hand” - Rev.1:3 & 22:10). 

Your Idealist pattern of symbolizing literally EVERYTHING eschatological ignores the very clear TIME CONSTRAINTS that scripture places on these things.  You have to turn a blind eye to all these time markers in order to arrive at the conclusions that you have developed.  In this you have surpassed even the hyper Full Preterists, who are generally derided for their totally symbolic view of the resurrection of the body (and rightly so on that one point).

[RB]

What I would rather you addressed are the TIME LIMITATIONS connected to the following points that I brought out that you have yet to give an explanation for.  I have emphasized these points several times, but all I hear is a deafening silence from you about them.

That's a lie~this is the first time that you have worded your points in that manner, maybe a point here and there over a period of two to three years~and not really sure if I did or did not~I did answer your question on Matthew 24:20 with no response back from you.....I cannot remember where thread that was, or its topic, but it was only in the past two to three weeks ~which I did not take personally~which I did sense a little of an upset spirit from you after I finished posting on the antichrist spirit you believe that there is no evil fallen spirit in this world post 70 A.D.~ you believe they were ALL destroyed in 70 A.D. including the DEVIL HIMSELF~which is the most corrupt doctrine among your many on eschatology. You posted:  http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/is-satan-bound-today/ Replies 7  and 10~Okay, let me look at this and see if we need to find that post, or start a new one, or just do it on this one.....later.

[dpr]

No RB, that did not at all address the point I am making.

Here’s what we know for certain.  The “Great Tribulation” would never be duplicated at any time in history either prior to it, or subsequent to that period.  “...such as had not been since the beginning of the world until now, NOR EVER WILL BE.” (Matt. 24:21).  History as we know it would keep marching onward for humanity on this planet even after the “Great Tribulation”.
....

I beg to differ. Your last statement (underlined) certainly is not true. It is only an assumption based on the doctrine you've chosen to follow.

Dan 12:1-2
12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
KJV

That "time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time" is what our Lord Jesus was pointing to with the Matt.24 "great tribulation". Daniel 12:1 links it to the very end of this world, because it is pointing to deliverance of Christ's faithful, and the resurrection, which is for the very end of this world.

[dpr]

For those who can receive it, the final Antichrist will be the devil himself, here on earth, in plain sight. And his angels are coming here with him.


John 12:31
31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
KJV

John 14:30
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me.
KJV


Many brethren argue over that idea of Satan being 'cast out', thinking it means he was bound in the pit at Christ's crucifixion. That's not what our Lord Jesus meant though. He was pointing to the Revelation 12:7-9 event, which is still in our near future. And then that John 14:30 example shows how He meant that 'cast out' also, applies to Satan being who is coming, meaning here on earth in person.

Remove the blinders. Don't think for one minute that Satan can only come here on earth as a spirit to possess someone in a flesh body. That idea is actually one of his deceptions his children use today.

Satan, as with all the angels, has the outward image likeness of man, for that image comes from our Heavenly Father, and that means from the Heavenly dimension. Even the Archangel Gabriel's name means 'man of God'.

This is the casting out our Lord Jesus was pointing to...

Rev 12:7-12
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

That has not happened yet. It is in what is called the prophetic perfect tense, which speaks of an event that's yet future as though it already happened. Further Scripture here will show this.

That idea, "neither was their place found any more in heaven" is very important to grasp. That is pointing to the difference between the two dimensions, this earthly vs. the heavenly where God and His angels dwell. When this casting out happens, Satan's place in Heaven will be no longer. He will not be allowed to appear before God's throne and accuse brethren like he did in the Book of Job. It means the only other... place he can go, is to this earthly dimension we live in, here on earth in plain sight.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10  And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ, will come IN HEAVEN then, because the devil and his angels will be cast out of the heavenly dimension, and not allowed back in. He won't be able to appear before God's throne and accuse us anymore.

The fact that "the power of His Christ" is mentioned at this event reveals this event could not have happened prior to Christ's death and resurrection. That places this event to be sometime after... Christ's death and crucifixion. The next verse will give us a more specific timing for this event of Satan's casting out of Heaven...

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

And there it is, the event of brethren being persecuted at the end of this world, which is the 5th Seal of Revelation 6. That event our Lord Jesus also pointed to for the end in His Olivet discourse.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
KJV

That "short time" is about the very end, the short time of "great tribulation" our Lord Jesus warned us about in His Olivet discourse.

Revelation 12:9 gave other titles for Satan used in Revelation, i.e., the dragon, that old serpent.

In Revelation 13:11, the 2nd beast, a beast king that comes up out of the earth, speaks like a "dragon".

In Revelation 12:3, we are shown the "great red dragon" that had seven heads, ten horns, and seven crowns, drew a third part of the stars (angels) to earth with him. The number of crowns there is different than the beast in Revelation 13 which is to have ten crowns. Rev.12:3-4 is thus pointing to Satan's rebellion of old, before the foundation of this world. If you don't understand this, then you've got some Bible studying to do. Our Lord is actually showing you in Rev.12:3-4 what Satan did at his first rebellion and sin against God, that he is going to try and do it again at the end of this world, which is what the Rev.13 system is about.

In Revelation 12:15, the "serpent" cast out of his mouth water AS a flood after the woman, pointing symbolically to lies. Then the "dragon" (same one as that serpent, i.e., Satan himself), becomes wroth and goes to make war with the remnant of the woman's seed, i.e., Christ's Church, those who keep God's commandments and have the TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST.

In Revelation 13:4-8, we are shown the whole world will worship the "dragon", excepting Christ's elect. And that dragon will blaspheme God's name, those in Heaven, and he will have power over all nations and peoples for 42 months.

Again, who is the "dragon" per Rev.12:9? It is Satan himself.

In Revelation 13:11-14, we are shown that "another beast" that will speak as a "dragon", will work great wonders on earth, raining fire from heaven down to earth in the sight of men! He will work miracles to deceive the whole world with! So it's bird, it's plane, its a pope, it's a mahdi, nope... it is Satan de facto, in person, here on earth in plain sight. He is coming with his angels, just as Apostle Paul also hinted to this future event in 2 Cor.11 that Satan disguises himself as an angel of light, and his ministers and ministers of righteousness.

[3 Resurrections]

Hi dpr,

Responding to your reply #74 above...

Of course, Daniel 12:1 and Matt. 24:21 are both describing the very same period of unparalleled Great Tribulation, with Matt. 24:21 going a step further by saying that there would never be any FUTURE period of tribulation AFTER THAT Great Tribulation which would ever be able to equal the severity of the former one.  And of course, both Dan. 12:1 and Matt. 24:21 each conclude with the same resurrection at Christ’s second coming return, which happens  immediately after that great Tribulation.

We can’t ignore those FUTURE periods of regular tribulation for the saints (following Christ’s second coming return) which Matthew 24:21 speaks about.  These periods of normal tribulation prove that there must be yet another resurrection at a third coming of Christ AFTER Christ’s second coming return.  That is because God leaves none of the bodies of His saints behind in the grave.  It’s an assumption based on the normal understanding of the English language in this verse - not an invention of mine.  God “harvests” and changes to incorruptible the dead bodies of His saints on 3 separate occasions, with two of these events having already been accomplished.

As for the two verses you submitted (John 12:31 and 14:30), you might want to pay special attention to the word “NOW” which applied to the time Christ was speaking back then.  Satan was going to be cast out at the ascension of Christ on His resurrection day.  The salvation of man came and the power of Christ was manifested when He raised Himself from the dead by the Spirit.  We currently have no more accuser of the brethren in heaven, and haven’t had this since Satan was cast out of heaven with his angels at Christ’s ascension.

The Rev. 12 casting out of heaven for the Devil and his angels is a past event.  It is dated to Passover week of AD 33 after the blood of the Lamb was offered by our high priest in heaven that morning after his resurrection.  It’s not a future event.

[dpr]

....

We can’t ignore those FUTURE periods of regular tribulation for the saints (following Christ’s second coming return) which Matthew 24:21 speaks about.  These periods of normal tribulation prove that there must be yet another resurrection at a third coming of Christ AFTER Christ’s second coming return.  That is because God leaves none of the bodies of His saints behind in the grave.  It’s an assumption based on the normal understanding of the English language in this verse - not an invention of mine.  God “harvests” and changes to incorruptible the dead bodies of His saints on 3 separate occasions, with two of these events having already being accomplished.

Your first paragraph aligned with the Scripture.

But your second paragraph does not.

When Jesus returns, it's all over. The resurrection on the last day spoken of in The Gospel happens right then, and then Christ begins His "thousand years" reign with His elect over all the nations, over the whole earth. Thus there is only ONE more coming of Christ Jesus, and that is when all tribulation against His saints will be over too, forever.