What is the name of the Anti-Christ, does he have a name?
(Author : TheWordIsOne)
« Fri Jan 03, 2020 - 18:39:37 »
1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.2 John 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
1 John 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming and is now already in the world. Past Present and Future!
2 Thessalonians 2:7-9 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.
Matthew 24:24 For false Christ’s and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
2Th 2:3-12
Matthew 24:26 Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it.
Note: in the desert!' He is in the inner rooms!'
2 Thessalonians 2: 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working (Works) of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
2 Thessalonians 2: 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
1 John 3:8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning.
For this purpose, the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil
« Last Edit: Sun Jan 26, 2020 - 12:38:28 by Jaime »
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Reply #1 by robycop3
« Tue Jan 21, 2020 - 10:43:27 »
While there have been antichrists ever since Christ was here, the ultimate AC hasn't yet been made manifest. He is also known in Scripture as the "man of sin, son of perdition" (besides Judas), & "that wicked" & "the beast from the sea".
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Reply #2 by RB
« Wed Jan 22, 2020 - 04:34:31 »
While there have been antichrists ever since Christ was here, the ultimate AC hasn't yet been made manifest. He is also known in Scripture as the "man of sin, son of perdition" (besides Judas), & "that wicked" & "the beast from the sea".I have been halfway reading some of the posts from all of you folks and thought about jumping in, maybe now is a good time to do so. Yes, the mystery of iniquity has been here since Cain~THEREBY, so has the man of sin, that wicked, and son (s) of perdition~for they are all CONNECTED and are part of the religion of "Mystery Babylon the great city under its king~
Quote from: John
Revelation 9:11~"And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon."The man of sin is just as its name declares: MAN of sin....man OF SIN~it is any and ALL men who profess the name of God, yet they dwell in the temple of God (his outward place of worship in this world be wherever that may be) yet they live UNDER THE POWER OF SIN~they stand in the temple of God where they OUGHT NOT to stand and declare that they are God, and they do this by rejecting certain truths and adding their own desired doctrines and commandments IN THE PLACE OF GOD'S!
Quote
Re: What is the name of the Anti-Christ, does he have a name what is he to you?He goes by many thousands of names: http://so4j.com/false-teachers the list is many millions strong and growing daily! It is the time of GREAT TRIBULATION spoken of by Daniel, Christ, Paul, and John. It will take place at the end of the world JUST BEFORE the coming of Jesus Christ~it is the time of Jacob's trouble (the very elect, NOT the Jewish nation) when the TRUE BELIEVERS will:
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
MAtthew 24:15,16 ".....see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:Judaea is the PROFESSING churches of God throughout this world, and when the very elect SEE the MAN OF SIN ruling in these churches they will FLEE out of them, for THEN there shall be GREAT tribulation (spiritual in nature) the such the world has never seen, yea not even Jeremiah in his days when the OT church apostate from the true worship of God and God sent the Babylonians to destroy them JUST AS HE WILL DO AGAIN when he will allow the KINGS of MYSTERY BABYLON (this world system under the ruler of ITS KING) to destroy the religious part of Mysterty Babylon which is where the MAN OF SIN, that Wicked enemy of Christ sits and rules. The very elect will be delivered on that day when Jesus returns in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that obey not the true gospel of Jesus Christ and that loved not his precious word.
« Last Edit: Mon Feb 17, 2020 - 15:28:06 by RB »
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Reply #3 by lea
So, are you planning to head to the mountains at that time?!
2Thess.2:Verses 5-7. "Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way"
(Paul had mentioned this power of lawlessness on other occasions (see 1 Th. 2:14-16; 1 Ti. 4:1). The Jews were revolting against Rome and rejecting the sacred practice of biblical Judaism. Some followers of Christ who remained zealous for the Temple system were departing from the new faith and falling back into the old ways. But behind it all was "the secret power of lawlessness." It was "already at work," there and then, but something and/or someone was holding the "man of sin" back at the time Paul wrote this letter (circa A.D. 51 - 52). Whatever that was, Paul reminded his first readers that they already knew its/his identity. So Paul didn't have to tell them. And he didn't. Since they knew who or what it was, it could not possibly have been something or someone that would not exist for some nineteen or more centuries. But who or what was it?)
https://www.preteristarchive.com/Modern/2002_noe_man-of-sin.html
« Wed Jan 22, 2020 - 11:41:21 »
RB,So, are you planning to head to the mountains at that time?!
2Thess.2:Verses 5-7. "Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way"
(Paul had mentioned this power of lawlessness on other occasions (see 1 Th. 2:14-16; 1 Ti. 4:1). The Jews were revolting against Rome and rejecting the sacred practice of biblical Judaism. Some followers of Christ who remained zealous for the Temple system were departing from the new faith and falling back into the old ways. But behind it all was "the secret power of lawlessness." It was "already at work," there and then, but something and/or someone was holding the "man of sin" back at the time Paul wrote this letter (circa A.D. 51 - 52). Whatever that was, Paul reminded his first readers that they already knew its/his identity. So Paul didn't have to tell them. And he didn't. Since they knew who or what it was, it could not possibly have been something or someone that would not exist for some nineteen or more centuries. But who or what was it?)
https://www.preteristarchive.com/Modern/2002_noe_man-of-sin.html
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Reply #4 by RB
Lea, fleeing unto the mountains means nothing more than withdrawing from false churches in Mystery Babylon, just as we are commanded and not only that, Jesus said that we should warn those entering in to NOT do so!
« Thu Jan 23, 2020 - 06:04:38 »
RB, So, are you planning to head to the mountains at that time?!Greetings Lea~not planning, but I have already and for the most part left back in and around the late seventies. Matthew 24 is to be understood by comparing scriptures with scriptures, not by reading Josephus and by using "extra-Biblical" materials written by bias historians, etc. Truth is hidden IN THE holy scriptures and is not found outside of them. I'm not (and refuse to do so) basing my faith on human speculation, but on thus saith the Lord God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob.
Lea, fleeing unto the mountains means nothing more than withdrawing from false churches in Mystery Babylon, just as we are commanded and not only that, Jesus said that we should warn those entering in to NOT do so!
Quote from: Paul
2nd Timothy 3:1-4~"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Luke 21:21~"Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto."Try to apply Matthew 24; Mark 13; or Luke 21 literally and it will NOT fit the big spiritual puzzle of the big eschatology picture concerning the latter days just before the coming of Jesus Christ. Matthew 24 is ALSO CONNECTED with Matthew 25 as ONE discourse spoken at the same setting speaking about the SAME TIME PERIOD of this earth's final days just before its destruction and these two chapters must not be divided if one truly desires to know the truth from the word of God. The second coming of Jesus Christ is without question the SUBJECT under consideration in BOTH chapters.
Quote from: lea on: Yesterday at 11:41:21
(Paul had mentioned this power of lawlessness on other occasions (see 1 Th. 2:14-16; 1 Ti. 4:1). The Jews were revolting against Rome and rejecting the sacred practice of biblical Judaism. Some followers of Christ who remained zealous for the Temple system were departing from the new faith and falling back into the old ways. But behind it all was "the secret power of lawlessness." It was "already at work," there and then, but something and/or someone was holding the "man of sin" back at the time Paul wrote this letter (circa A.D. 51 - 52). Whatever that was, Paul reminded his first readers that they already knew its/his identity. So Paul didn't have to tell them. And he didn't. Since they knew who or what it was, it could not possibly have been something or someone that would not exist for some nineteen or more centuries. But who or what was it?)Pure speculation Lea, by those stepping outside of God's testimony and forcing their understanding into the word of God~by trusting in extra-biblical help instead of trusting God's word to give us the TRUTH that is hidden therein!
« Last Edit: Sun Jan 26, 2020 - 13:07:41 by RB »
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Reply #5 by 3 Resurrections
I’m curious as to just what symbolic significance you would assign to the warning given about those women who would be pregnant or nursing children in those days of Great Tribulation. According to your interpretation, how would being pregnant or nursing a child hinder a woman from leaving false doctrines or false teachers?
Also, why did Christ bring up an instruction for the disciples to pray that their flight from Judea and Jerusalem would not take place on the Sabbath, and not in the winter?
According to your interpretation, if this “flight” is really about believers leaving false teachers and false doctrines, what difference would the winter cold during that Judean rainy season make, and what difference would the particular day of the week make in that symbolic “flight”?
Your interpretation that limits this “flight” from Judea and Jerusalem to only a symbolic sense doesn’t match with Christ’s specific directives in regard to it.
Also, in your reply #2 above, you have timed the Great Tribulation to fall on the timeline just before Christ’s second coming at the end of the world and at the close of human history on this planet. While I agree that the Great Tribulation was going to occur just prior to Christ’s second coming, it is IMPOSSIBLE for that period of Great Tribulation to occur at the close of human history.
There HAD TO BE ongoing history for quite some time AFTER that Great Tribulation. That is because the severity of that period of trouble was prophesied to be like no other BEFORE THAT TIME, but also like no other tribulation that would ever happen *AFTER* THAT TIME. This required that a record of history AFTER the Great Tribulation would be available for humanity to compare to that period of the greatest tribulation that had ever occurred in the past , or that ever would occur at any time following it.
Both Daniel 12:1 and the gospel accounts of this “Great Tribulation” confirm that ordinary continued human history on this planet would persist, following that unsurpassed period of trouble. Regular times of ordinary tribulation throughout history would crop up after that. However, none afterward would ever equal that of the “Great Tribulation”, which fell on Christ’s own generation - that generation of the weeping women and their children that were there on the road to Golgotha at Christ’s crucifixion.
« Thu Jan 23, 2020 - 13:23:44 »
Hi RB,I’m curious as to just what symbolic significance you would assign to the warning given about those women who would be pregnant or nursing children in those days of Great Tribulation. According to your interpretation, how would being pregnant or nursing a child hinder a woman from leaving false doctrines or false teachers?
Also, why did Christ bring up an instruction for the disciples to pray that their flight from Judea and Jerusalem would not take place on the Sabbath, and not in the winter?
According to your interpretation, if this “flight” is really about believers leaving false teachers and false doctrines, what difference would the winter cold during that Judean rainy season make, and what difference would the particular day of the week make in that symbolic “flight”?
Your interpretation that limits this “flight” from Judea and Jerusalem to only a symbolic sense doesn’t match with Christ’s specific directives in regard to it.
Also, in your reply #2 above, you have timed the Great Tribulation to fall on the timeline just before Christ’s second coming at the end of the world and at the close of human history on this planet. While I agree that the Great Tribulation was going to occur just prior to Christ’s second coming, it is IMPOSSIBLE for that period of Great Tribulation to occur at the close of human history.
There HAD TO BE ongoing history for quite some time AFTER that Great Tribulation. That is because the severity of that period of trouble was prophesied to be like no other BEFORE THAT TIME, but also like no other tribulation that would ever happen *AFTER* THAT TIME. This required that a record of history AFTER the Great Tribulation would be available for humanity to compare to that period of the greatest tribulation that had ever occurred in the past , or that ever would occur at any time following it.
Both Daniel 12:1 and the gospel accounts of this “Great Tribulation” confirm that ordinary continued human history on this planet would persist, following that unsurpassed period of trouble. Regular times of ordinary tribulation throughout history would crop up after that. However, none afterward would ever equal that of the “Great Tribulation”, which fell on Christ’s own generation - that generation of the weeping women and their children that were there on the road to Golgotha at Christ’s crucifixion.
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Reply #6 by robycop3
And when Jesus said "Flee to the mountains", He meant JUST THAT! It has nothing to do with false religions.
The LITERAL fulfillment of other prophecies shors the literalness of those yet to be fulfilled. Scripture shapes history, not vice versa, & history is the affirmation of Scripture.
The antichrist/beast/man of sin, the great trib, & the glorious return of Jesus are still future.
« Fri Jan 24, 2020 - 00:48:18 »
RB, you seemtabee just another Scripture-twister who gives certain passages new meanings which are NOT present in them. For instance, when Paul wrote "MAN of sin" he meant just THAT, not "men". Sure, there are plenty of men of sin - ALL of us! But Paul was referring to a certain one who will be the worst of all.And when Jesus said "Flee to the mountains", He meant JUST THAT! It has nothing to do with false religions.
The LITERAL fulfillment of other prophecies shors the literalness of those yet to be fulfilled. Scripture shapes history, not vice versa, & history is the affirmation of Scripture.
The antichrist/beast/man of sin, the great trib, & the glorious return of Jesus are still future.
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Reply #7 by RB
« Fri Jan 24, 2020 - 03:47:46 »
RB, you seemtabee just another Scripture-twister who gives certain passages new meanings which are NOT present in them.Sir, not a "scripture-twister" as you think~maybe not fully enlightened by the Spirit of God, but I fear the God of heaven too much to twist "His Testimony" concerning truth that he has given unto us to believe, receive and teach. Maybe new meaning to you, but certainly not to those children of God whom he has enlightened to different degrees.
Quote from: robycop3 Reply #6 on: Today at 00:48:18
For instance, when Paul wrote "MAN of sin" he meant just THAT, not "men". Sure, there are plenty of men of sin - ALL of us!Yes, he did mean just what he wrote. Sir, Man of sin is a collective noun meaning ALL MEN who live under the power of sin, according to God's definition of sin, not their definition of sin! When any uses the phrase man of war, they are not speaking of just ONE MAN, but all who participate in warfare. The same with the phrase the man of God, not speaking of a single individual, but all who come from God speaking his word unto the people.
Quote from: robycop3 Reply #6 on: Today at 00:48:18
But Paul was referring to a certain one who will be the worst of all.A little bit of truth, with no full biblical knowledge. The mystery of iniquity has been at work since the fall of man, but the scriptures do reveal that before the coming of Jesus Christ to gather together his very elect, and to destroy the wicked that this world will experience a tribulation the like the world has never seen~this period of time is totally spiritual in nature, NOT with a sword, etc. This period of time is a little season known only to God when God withdraws his restraining power over Satan and all devils and allow them more freedom to deceive than in any other time in this world's history. So, yes, in one sense
Quote from: robycop3 Reply #6 on: Today at 00:48:18
But Paul was referring to a certain one who will be the worst of all.But the one is truly millions of false prophets and followers. This is the true biblical warning from Matthew 24; 2nd Thessalonians 2; 1st John 2:18; and Daniel and John from the Revelation of Jesus Christ. I personally believe that the little season spoken of by John begun somewhere around the beginning of 1800 to where we are now. All one needs to do is consider the many false cults that were born into this world after the 1800~(remember the mystery of iniquity has ALWAYS been at work, but restrain to a certain degree at different times in this world's history.) Mormonism, Jehovah Witnesses, SDA, Pentecostalism or Classical Pentecostalism and from them the wicked prosperity gospel thieves, etc., etc. This is nothing more than the fulfillment of Jesus' last warning before leaving this earth!
Quote from: robycop3 Reply #6 on: Today at 00:48:18
And when Jesus said "Flee to the mountains", He meant JUST THAT! It has nothing to do with false religions.Prove me wrong if you can that is your right by posting, you saying what you did proves not one thing. I trust you and others know how to spot arrogant verses, confident people~I feel very confident that I can defend what I truly believe to be the truth of the word of God. If posting here, we all should be prepared to defend our beliefs and truly seek to help each other and expose false doctrine.
« Last Edit: Sun Jan 26, 2020 - 13:08:05 by RB »
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Reply #8 by RB
Neither on the Sabbath day~Again, this warning would be USELESS if it was speaking of a Jewish Sabbath~for more than one reason. First NO apostle would ever allow themselves to be put back under the Jewish Sabbath days, and WHO CARES if one's life is in danger if this was speaking literal death, etc. they would flee to save their own life regardless of the law of the Sabbath as the Jews kept it.
I take these words from Christ to mean this and no more than this: "We should be praying that our own life is vigilant, LABORING in the work of the Lord and not taking our ease and resting and using out time for leisure"~there is NO OTHER sense that will flow with all other scriptures than this without perverting the word of God. Jesus certainly would not make his followers believe that forty years after his death, they would STILL be under the Jewish Sabbath days!
Consider my brother, that most professing Christians are living a very long sabbath day in the very heart of a LONG WINTER! Selah
I will consider your other questions later, the Lord willing. RB
« Fri Jan 24, 2020 - 06:26:35 »
Hi RB,Greetings 3 Resurrections~We have dealt with this before I believe~but for sake of time here's a great article written by Tony Warren around twenty-seven years ago: http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/woman.html I overall agree with him on this one point. I truly cannot add much more than what Tony has written.
I’m curious as to just what symbolic significance you would assign to the warning given about those women who would be pregnant or nursing children in those days of Great Tribulation. According to your interpretation, how would being pregnant or nursing a child hinder a woman from leaving false doctrines or false teachers?
Quote from: 3 Resurrections on: Yesterday at 13:23:44
Also, why did Christ bring up an instruction for the disciples to pray that their flight from Judea and Jerusalem would not take place on the Sabbath, and not in the winter?I do not believe you and I have discussed this question before so I will give you my understanding of this question.
According to your interpretation, if this “flight” is really about believers leaving false teachers and false doctrines, what difference would the winter cold during that Judean rainy season make, and what difference would the particular day of the week make in that symbolic “flight”?
Your interpretation that limits this “flight” from Judea and Jerusalem to only a symbolic sense doesn’t match with Christ’s specific directives in regard to it.
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Matthew 24:20,21~"But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."As the very elect (they alone have eyes to see and a heart that understands) see the abomination of desolation (that which is abominable in God's holy eyes that HE WILL make desolate) standeth where it OUGHT TO STAND that shall be a fulfillment of such Scriptures as 2nd Timothy 3:1-4:5~then let them flee out of the midst of Judaea. AS THEY ARE FLEEING and as they cry out against all of the abominations within the churches then Christ here gives THEM some warnings for them to make sure that their flight is NOT in the winter. What is winter for all of us? It is a season of fruitless, barren, and lifeless. As we are fleeing these false churches with their false prophets, we should be praying and making sure our OWN LIFE is NOT as their life IS.
Neither on the Sabbath day~Again, this warning would be USELESS if it was speaking of a Jewish Sabbath~for more than one reason. First NO apostle would ever allow themselves to be put back under the Jewish Sabbath days, and WHO CARES if one's life is in danger if this was speaking literal death, etc. they would flee to save their own life regardless of the law of the Sabbath as the Jews kept it.
I take these words from Christ to mean this and no more than this: "We should be praying that our own life is vigilant, LABORING in the work of the Lord and not taking our ease and resting and using out time for leisure"~there is NO OTHER sense that will flow with all other scriptures than this without perverting the word of God. Jesus certainly would not make his followers believe that forty years after his death, they would STILL be under the Jewish Sabbath days!
Consider my brother, that most professing Christians are living a very long sabbath day in the very heart of a LONG WINTER! Selah
I will consider your other questions later, the Lord willing. RB
« Last Edit: Sun Jan 26, 2020 - 13:08:34 by RB »
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Reply #9 by seekingHiswisdom
It would seem to me it could point to one who
A. Finds it dangerous to have a personal relationship with Jesus.
" There are those who believe they can maintain a personal, direct and immediate relationship with Jesus Christ outside the communion and the mediation of the Church. These are dangerous and harmful temptations."
2. Accepts a religious group who deny who Jesus actually was/is and count them worthy to enter into heaven.
"The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
III. Is a master of double talk as in ...
"Church must follow Jesus’ command to preach the Gospel to every person, otherwise it will not fulfill its mission of bearing witness to Christ" WHILE AT THE SAME TIME SAYING "Reuters: “Conversion is not your mission, ______ tells _______ in Morocco.”.
I have deliberately left out specifics on the man who says these things.
Yes, he has a name.
and
Yes, this one seemingly is a master of confusion.
and
Yes, if this one is not the prophetic anti-Christ he certainly has an agenda known only to him
and, most important...
Yes, this man is very dangerous.
What is he to me?
Let me just paraphrase... The enemy of my friend is my enemy.
« Fri Jan 24, 2020 - 08:19:12 »
What is the name of "THE" anti-Christ?It would seem to me it could point to one who
A. Finds it dangerous to have a personal relationship with Jesus.
" There are those who believe they can maintain a personal, direct and immediate relationship with Jesus Christ outside the communion and the mediation of the Church. These are dangerous and harmful temptations."
2. Accepts a religious group who deny who Jesus actually was/is and count them worthy to enter into heaven.
"The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
III. Is a master of double talk as in ...
"Church must follow Jesus’ command to preach the Gospel to every person, otherwise it will not fulfill its mission of bearing witness to Christ" WHILE AT THE SAME TIME SAYING "Reuters: “Conversion is not your mission, ______ tells _______ in Morocco.”.
I have deliberately left out specifics on the man who says these things.
Yes, he has a name.
and
Yes, this one seemingly is a master of confusion.
and
Yes, if this one is not the prophetic anti-Christ he certainly has an agenda known only to him
and, most important...
Yes, this man is very dangerous.
What is he to me?
Let me just paraphrase... The enemy of my friend is my enemy.
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Reply #10 by RB
« Fri Jan 24, 2020 - 08:44:48 »
Also, in your reply #2 above, you have timed the Great Tribulation to fall on the timeline just before Christ’s second coming at the end of the world and at the close of human history on this planet. While I agree that the Great Tribulation was going to occur just prior to Christ’s second coming, it is IMPOSSIBLE for that period of Great Tribulation to occur at the close of human history.3 Resurrections~after reading this again, I have already, for the most part, answered this above when I said to robycop3:
There HAD TO BE ongoing history for quite some time AFTER that Great Tribulation. That is because the severity of that period of trouble was prophesied to be like no other BEFORE THAT TIME, but also like no other tribulation that would ever happen *AFTER* THAT TIME. This required that a record of history AFTER the Great Tribulation would be available for humanity to compare to that period of the greatest tribulation that had ever occurred in the past , or that ever would occur at any time following it.
Both Daniel 12:1 and the gospel accounts of this “Great Tribulation” confirm that ordinary continued human history on this planet would persist, following that unsurpassed period of trouble. Regular times of ordinary tribulation throughout history would crop up after that. However, none afterward would ever equal that of the “Great Tribulation”, which fell on Christ’s own generation - that generation of the weeping women and their children that were there on the road to Golgotha at Christ’s crucifixion.
Quote from: RB on: Today at 03:47:46
But the one is truly millions of false prophets and followers. This is the true biblical warning from Matthew 24; 2nd Thessalonians 2; 1st John 2:18; and Daniel and John from the Revelation of Jesus Christ. I personally believe that the little season spoken of by John begun somewhere around the beginning of 1800 to where we are now. All one needs to do is consider the many false cults that were born into this world after the 1800~(remember the mystery of iniquity has ALWAYS been at work, but restrain to a certain degree at different times in this world's history.) Mormonism, Jehovah Witnesses, SDA, Pentecostalism or Classical Pentecostalism and from them the wicked prosperity gospel thieves, etc., etc. This is nothing more than the fulfillment of Jesus' last warning before leaving this earth!Of course, we do not agree on Christ's comings~I believe in ONLY TWO literal comings of Christ, his birth and his second coming on the LAST DAY of this earth.
« Last Edit: Sun Jan 26, 2020 - 13:08:59 by RB »
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Reply #11 by 3 Resurrections
Here’s what we know for certain. The “Great Tribulation” would never be duplicated at any time in history either prior to it, or subsequent to that period. “...such as had not been since the beginning of the world until now, NOR EVER WILL BE.” (Matt. 24:21). History as we know it would keep marching onward for humanity on this planet even after the “Great Tribulation”.
Here is what we also know for certain, and it’s from the exact same context in Matt. 24:29-31. *IMMEDIATELY* AFTER that Great Tribulation in those days, “the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING UPON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN with power and great glory, And he will send out his angels with a trumpet blast, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
This is describing a BODILY RESURRECTION at Christ’s coming for all the dead saints of God up to that point in time, IMMEDIATELY following the Great Tribulation. Yet we know that scripture speaks of history CONTINUING *AFTER* that Great Tribulation and the bodily resurrection that is “IMMEDIATELY *AFTER* the tribulation of those days”.
This great tribulation involved not only great PHYSICAL “distress in the land, and wrath upon this people” (the Jewish people who had rejected their Messiah), it also involved unsurpassed and unprecedented SPIRITUAL oppression during those days by the Devil and his angels. These were working at a furious pace to deceive as many as possible in that “short time” and “little season” before Christ’s return.
The mistake you are making RB, is that you think that the “LITTLE season” of Satan’s deceiving oppression would last up to a couple hundred years and counting. Scripture knows of no such definition. It defines even a “LONG season” as lasting only 40 years for the wilderness wanderings of the Israelites (Joshua 24:7). If a “LONG season” only lasts for 40 years, then a “LITTLE season” is at the very least LESS THAN 40 YEARS of duration.
And we know for certain that this “short time” and “little season” when the wrathful Devil was loosed had ALREADY BEGUN WHEN JOHN WAS WRITING REVELATION. According to Rev. 12:12, John warned the inhabitants of the earth and the sea at that time that “the Devil IS COME DOWN UNTO YOU, (present tense for them) having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a SHORT TIME.”
You need to rethink your chronology of these events. The only way that we can have Christ return for a resurrection of the saints “IMMEDIATELY AFTER” the Great Tribulation, and yet still have history continuing AFTER that time is for there to be yet another return of Christ with another resurrection for the saints in our future. God will give us the same physical, bodily resurrection inheritance that the saints experienced back in AD 70, since God will not abandon a single one of His saints in the dust of the grave, from the First-fruits to the last-fruits.
« Fri Jan 24, 2020 - 10:19:00 »
No RB, that did not at all address the point I am making.Here’s what we know for certain. The “Great Tribulation” would never be duplicated at any time in history either prior to it, or subsequent to that period. “...such as had not been since the beginning of the world until now, NOR EVER WILL BE.” (Matt. 24:21). History as we know it would keep marching onward for humanity on this planet even after the “Great Tribulation”.
Here is what we also know for certain, and it’s from the exact same context in Matt. 24:29-31. *IMMEDIATELY* AFTER that Great Tribulation in those days, “the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING UPON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN with power and great glory, And he will send out his angels with a trumpet blast, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
This is describing a BODILY RESURRECTION at Christ’s coming for all the dead saints of God up to that point in time, IMMEDIATELY following the Great Tribulation. Yet we know that scripture speaks of history CONTINUING *AFTER* that Great Tribulation and the bodily resurrection that is “IMMEDIATELY *AFTER* the tribulation of those days”.
This great tribulation involved not only great PHYSICAL “distress in the land, and wrath upon this people” (the Jewish people who had rejected their Messiah), it also involved unsurpassed and unprecedented SPIRITUAL oppression during those days by the Devil and his angels. These were working at a furious pace to deceive as many as possible in that “short time” and “little season” before Christ’s return.
The mistake you are making RB, is that you think that the “LITTLE season” of Satan’s deceiving oppression would last up to a couple hundred years and counting. Scripture knows of no such definition. It defines even a “LONG season” as lasting only 40 years for the wilderness wanderings of the Israelites (Joshua 24:7). If a “LONG season” only lasts for 40 years, then a “LITTLE season” is at the very least LESS THAN 40 YEARS of duration.
And we know for certain that this “short time” and “little season” when the wrathful Devil was loosed had ALREADY BEGUN WHEN JOHN WAS WRITING REVELATION. According to Rev. 12:12, John warned the inhabitants of the earth and the sea at that time that “the Devil IS COME DOWN UNTO YOU, (present tense for them) having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a SHORT TIME.”
You need to rethink your chronology of these events. The only way that we can have Christ return for a resurrection of the saints “IMMEDIATELY AFTER” the Great Tribulation, and yet still have history continuing AFTER that time is for there to be yet another return of Christ with another resurrection for the saints in our future. God will give us the same physical, bodily resurrection inheritance that the saints experienced back in AD 70, since God will not abandon a single one of His saints in the dust of the grave, from the First-fruits to the last-fruits.
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Reply #12 by lea
I agree with your first sentence. He does need to rethink his chronology of the Biblical predictions.
However, I wouldn't call the Resurrection of AD70 a bodily resurrection. Rather, it is a literal one. Those in hades were literally raised and there is no more hades!And we know that is the Spirit that returns to God to receive a NEW SPIRITUAL BODY IN HEAVEN. Physical refers to the flesh, and Scripture says otherwise. There is NO resurrection of the flesh as some incorrectly believe. We go to heaven now as soon as we die. I don't call our individual "raptures" when we die necessarily a "resurrection," as in another general resurrection in our future? Your last paragraph I disagree with. The rest of your post is, as always, spot on.
1Cor.15:44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
« Fri Jan 24, 2020 - 12:09:54 »
3R's, you said:Quote
You need to rethink your chronology of these events. The only way that we can have Christ return for a resurrection of the saints “IMMEDIATELY AFTER” the Great Tribulation, and yet still have history continuing AFTER that time is for there to be yet another return of Christ with another resurrection for the saints in our future. God will give us the same physical, bodily resurrection inheritance that the saints experienced back in AD 70, since God will not abandon a single one of His saints in the dust of the grave, from the First-fruits to the last-fruits.
I agree with your first sentence. He does need to rethink his chronology of the Biblical predictions.
However, I wouldn't call the Resurrection of AD70 a bodily resurrection. Rather, it is a literal one. Those in hades were literally raised and there is no more hades!And we know that is the Spirit that returns to God to receive a NEW SPIRITUAL BODY IN HEAVEN. Physical refers to the flesh, and Scripture says otherwise. There is NO resurrection of the flesh as some incorrectly believe. We go to heaven now as soon as we die. I don't call our individual "raptures" when we die necessarily a "resurrection," as in another general resurrection in our future? Your last paragraph I disagree with. The rest of your post is, as always, spot on.
1Cor.15:44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
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Reply #13 by robycop3
As for the OP:
Yes, there have been many ACs since the real Christ was here, but the "beast/man of sin/that Wicked" hasn't yet come. thus, no one on earth knows his name yet.
What is he to me ? he will be the most-evil man ever, making Hitler seem like a naughty toddler in comparison. He will oppose God, & everything else men worship as a god.
And the great trib will come during his short reign. Revelation briefly outlines that trib in its telling of the judgments of the seals, trumpets, & bowls of wrath. All this is clearly put forth in Scripture.
Sportzz Fanzz, please believe Scripture literally as possible ! yes, there's some symbolism in it, but it always stands for something literal. Don't believe the pie-in-the sky man-made fake news.
And again, remember that Jesus specifically warned His immediate audience, AND US, to NOT believe any reports that He'd already returned, as there'd be no doubt of His return when it happens.
And please remember - Your OWN meeting with Jesus is no further than YOUR NEXT HEARTBEAT! be ready at all times to meet Him unashamed, with nothing to try to hide. NO ONE is guaranteed tomorrow !
« Sat Jan 25, 2020 - 07:44:53 »
All this stuff about the antichrist having already come, or that Jesus has returned, is false. Jesus specifically warned us not to believe anyone who says, "He's there!" or "He's in the desert", etc. adding His retuen will be visible as lightning. He did NOT mention any other returns; just the one in His full glory & power.As for the OP:
Yes, there have been many ACs since the real Christ was here, but the "beast/man of sin/that Wicked" hasn't yet come. thus, no one on earth knows his name yet.
What is he to me ? he will be the most-evil man ever, making Hitler seem like a naughty toddler in comparison. He will oppose God, & everything else men worship as a god.
And the great trib will come during his short reign. Revelation briefly outlines that trib in its telling of the judgments of the seals, trumpets, & bowls of wrath. All this is clearly put forth in Scripture.
Sportzz Fanzz, please believe Scripture literally as possible ! yes, there's some symbolism in it, but it always stands for something literal. Don't believe the pie-in-the sky man-made fake news.
And again, remember that Jesus specifically warned His immediate audience, AND US, to NOT believe any reports that He'd already returned, as there'd be no doubt of His return when it happens.
And please remember - Your OWN meeting with Jesus is no further than YOUR NEXT HEARTBEAT! be ready at all times to meet Him unashamed, with nothing to try to hide. NO ONE is guaranteed tomorrow !
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Reply #14 by lea
Good luck with that! Something to hope for?
« Sat Jan 25, 2020 - 12:18:07 »
rc3 said,Quote
What is he to me ? he will be the most-evil man ever, making Hitler seem like a naughty toddler in comparison. He will oppose God, & everything else men worship as a god.
Good luck with that! Something to hope for?
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Reply #15 by 3 Resurrections
As for the name of this single individual who was only one of many anti-christs similar to himself who were present in John’s days - his name was “Menahem”. It means “Comforter”, which was rather blasphemous in itself, considering what a war-monger this narcissistic Zealot leader actually was. He was either a son or a grandson of the Zealot leader Judas the Galilean (mentioned by Dr. Gamaliel in Acts 5:37). This is why Menahem, the “Man of Lawlessness” was also called the “Son of Destruction”, because he had descended from Judas the Galilean, the lawless Zealot who had likewise been involved in trying to destroy the Romans who controlled the nation of Israel.
Even Jesus Himself had been crucified between two of such “men of lawlessness” - Zealots who had taken part in an insurrection against Rome along with Barabbas.
The OP wrote about the ”LAST *HOUR*” when the single individual anti-christ would arise. This “LAST *HOUR*” John wrote was already upon them in the time that I John was being written. By that time, the “last DAYS” spoken about by Peter on the day of Pentecost in AD 33 had turned into the “last HOUR” by the time John was writing. Meaning we are not presently waiting for this particular single anti-christ individual to appear in our days. If we were, then that would mean that the “last HOUR” had continued to drag on for an illogical couple of millennia. Which doesn’t make sense by any chronological consideration.
There was a purpose why these anti-christs were called “False Messiahs” in Matthew. Daniel 9:24-27 had predicted long ago the exact year when the incarnate Messiah would show up in Israel. The Pharisees, and even most of the people of Israel were expecting Him to appear around the year that John the Baptist started baptizing (Luke 3:15). Which is why the Pharisees sent representatives to John asking him point-blank if he were the Messiah prophesied to come at that time (John 1:19-28).
Even the Samaritan woman at the well was aware that the Messiah was coming, and would tell them all things when He came.
The leaders of Israel ended up rejecting Jesus as the incarnate Son of God fulfillment for Daniel’s prophesied Messiah who would come in the flesh as the ”messenger of the covenant”. That meant they had to hurry up and substitute their own false Christ/Messiah fulfillment of Daniel’s Messiah, and as close to Daniel’s prophesied AD 30 year as possible, in order to make their false claim believable for the people of Israel.
Many Zealot contenders for that prophesied Messiah role stepped forward in those first-century days, each of them eager to lead the nation to victory over the Romans, and establish themselves militarily as the leader of the known world. Menahem in AD 66 at the very beginning of the Jewish-Roman War was the first who succeeded (briefly for a period of a few weeks) to present himself physically in Jerusalem’s temple as the “King of the Jews”, dressed in King Herod’s robes of state that he had stolen from Masada, Herod’s fortress.
The Man of Lawlessness that the Thessalonians knew was waiting in the wings back then was going to have “exalted HIMSELF above everything that was CALLED god”. This does NOT say that he would succeed in getting many others to call him that - or that what he was elevating himself above actually WAS God. Because there were many false christs at that time also claiming to be the Messiah, who were also calling themselves by that term, just like Menahem the Zealot had been doing. These fellow-contenders for the Messiah role were the ones that Menahem was trying to exalt himself over.
Menahem’s exaltation of himself fizzled, almost as soon as he presented his claim in the temple as being the Messiah for Israel. The “brightness of his coming” into a position of power was snuffed out, along with all Menahem’s supporting troops, by the son of the high priest Ananias - a high priest whom Menahem had murdered because he had “restrained” Menahem from achieving his goal of becoming the Messiah “King of Israel”.
Ananias was the “restrainer” that the Thessalonians already knew about in II Thess. 2:6, because he was the high priest who had put the Apostle Paul on trial in Acts 23:2-3. Ananias was not only the individual man “HE” that was presently restraining in II Thess. 2:7, but Ananias was also the institution of the high priesthood “WHAT” that was presently restraining II Thess. 2:6.
Menahem himself was tortured and murdered in turn by that high priest’s avenging son Eleazar, who had aspirations of becoming a false Messiah himself in AD 66. These are past events that are not a threat hanging over our heads today. We may still have those today who deny that Christ Jesus who came in the flesh was the AD 30 fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy, but they are not the fulfillment of that single individual “Son of Perdition” who Paul predicted would stand in the Jerusalem temple claiming to be the Messiah.
« Sat Jan 25, 2020 - 15:47:55 »
Not trying to be picky, but can someone fix the title of this post? I keep picturing the “Antz” movies when the title shows up...I confess to being a bit neurotic about spelling...As for the name of this single individual who was only one of many anti-christs similar to himself who were present in John’s days - his name was “Menahem”. It means “Comforter”, which was rather blasphemous in itself, considering what a war-monger this narcissistic Zealot leader actually was. He was either a son or a grandson of the Zealot leader Judas the Galilean (mentioned by Dr. Gamaliel in Acts 5:37). This is why Menahem, the “Man of Lawlessness” was also called the “Son of Destruction”, because he had descended from Judas the Galilean, the lawless Zealot who had likewise been involved in trying to destroy the Romans who controlled the nation of Israel.
Even Jesus Himself had been crucified between two of such “men of lawlessness” - Zealots who had taken part in an insurrection against Rome along with Barabbas.
The OP wrote about the ”LAST *HOUR*” when the single individual anti-christ would arise. This “LAST *HOUR*” John wrote was already upon them in the time that I John was being written. By that time, the “last DAYS” spoken about by Peter on the day of Pentecost in AD 33 had turned into the “last HOUR” by the time John was writing. Meaning we are not presently waiting for this particular single anti-christ individual to appear in our days. If we were, then that would mean that the “last HOUR” had continued to drag on for an illogical couple of millennia. Which doesn’t make sense by any chronological consideration.
There was a purpose why these anti-christs were called “False Messiahs” in Matthew. Daniel 9:24-27 had predicted long ago the exact year when the incarnate Messiah would show up in Israel. The Pharisees, and even most of the people of Israel were expecting Him to appear around the year that John the Baptist started baptizing (Luke 3:15). Which is why the Pharisees sent representatives to John asking him point-blank if he were the Messiah prophesied to come at that time (John 1:19-28).
Even the Samaritan woman at the well was aware that the Messiah was coming, and would tell them all things when He came.
The leaders of Israel ended up rejecting Jesus as the incarnate Son of God fulfillment for Daniel’s prophesied Messiah who would come in the flesh as the ”messenger of the covenant”. That meant they had to hurry up and substitute their own false Christ/Messiah fulfillment of Daniel’s Messiah, and as close to Daniel’s prophesied AD 30 year as possible, in order to make their false claim believable for the people of Israel.
Many Zealot contenders for that prophesied Messiah role stepped forward in those first-century days, each of them eager to lead the nation to victory over the Romans, and establish themselves militarily as the leader of the known world. Menahem in AD 66 at the very beginning of the Jewish-Roman War was the first who succeeded (briefly for a period of a few weeks) to present himself physically in Jerusalem’s temple as the “King of the Jews”, dressed in King Herod’s robes of state that he had stolen from Masada, Herod’s fortress.
The Man of Lawlessness that the Thessalonians knew was waiting in the wings back then was going to have “exalted HIMSELF above everything that was CALLED god”. This does NOT say that he would succeed in getting many others to call him that - or that what he was elevating himself above actually WAS God. Because there were many false christs at that time also claiming to be the Messiah, who were also calling themselves by that term, just like Menahem the Zealot had been doing. These fellow-contenders for the Messiah role were the ones that Menahem was trying to exalt himself over.
Menahem’s exaltation of himself fizzled, almost as soon as he presented his claim in the temple as being the Messiah for Israel. The “brightness of his coming” into a position of power was snuffed out, along with all Menahem’s supporting troops, by the son of the high priest Ananias - a high priest whom Menahem had murdered because he had “restrained” Menahem from achieving his goal of becoming the Messiah “King of Israel”.
Ananias was the “restrainer” that the Thessalonians already knew about in II Thess. 2:6, because he was the high priest who had put the Apostle Paul on trial in Acts 23:2-3. Ananias was not only the individual man “HE” that was presently restraining in II Thess. 2:7, but Ananias was also the institution of the high priesthood “WHAT” that was presently restraining II Thess. 2:6.
Menahem himself was tortured and murdered in turn by that high priest’s avenging son Eleazar, who had aspirations of becoming a false Messiah himself in AD 66. These are past events that are not a threat hanging over our heads today. We may still have those today who deny that Christ Jesus who came in the flesh was the AD 30 fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy, but they are not the fulfillment of that single individual “Son of Perdition” who Paul predicted would stand in the Jerusalem temple claiming to be the Messiah.
« Last Edit: Sat Jan 25, 2020 - 15:53:58 by 3 Resurrections »
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Reply #16 by robycop3
« Sat Jan 25, 2020 - 17:32:39 »
NONE of those men was the ULTIMATE antichrist who is yet to come. He will rule most of the WHOLE WORLD, not just a little patch of Asia Minor.
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Reply #17 by lea
Sounds like you're turned on imagining Satan's coming after you.
You shouldn't spit out vomit in public. Jesus left His "peace. "
No one believes that violent garbage you and Satan try to tell people.
Where's your "Good News?"
« Sat Jan 25, 2020 - 17:44:35 »
NONE of those men was the ULTIMATE antichrist who is yet to come. He will rule most of the WHOLE WORLD, not just a little patch of Asia Minor.
Sounds like you're turned on imagining Satan's coming after you.
You shouldn't spit out vomit in public. Jesus left His "peace. "
No one believes that violent garbage you and Satan try to tell people.
Where's your "Good News?"
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Reply #18 by RB
I'm reading through your post and it's giving me a headache! But let me kept going but doubt that I will even comment on such foolishness and extra-biblical babbling from the writings of Josephus and the rest of unbelieving and non-inspired writers. But in all fairness, I will ponder all posts carefully in respect of self-deceived people who need a conversion to the truth, thank God it is not regeneration, for that work is outside of our calling and beyond any man's power to help. I can appreciate your godliness while despising your eschatology supported and based on "extra-biblical sources" for even an attempt to make it believable.
« Sun Jan 26, 2020 - 03:18:46 »
Not trying to be picky, but can someone fix the title of this post? I keep picturing the “Antz” movies when the title shows up...I confess to being a bit neurotic about spelling...Same here~Alan, or Jaime please take note.
I'm reading through your post and it's giving me a headache! But let me kept going but doubt that I will even comment on such foolishness and extra-biblical babbling from the writings of Josephus and the rest of unbelieving and non-inspired writers. But in all fairness, I will ponder all posts carefully in respect of self-deceived people who need a conversion to the truth, thank God it is not regeneration, for that work is outside of our calling and beyond any man's power to help. I can appreciate your godliness while despising your eschatology supported and based on "extra-biblical sources" for even an attempt to make it believable.
Quote from: The apostle Paul
2nd Timothy 3:16,17~"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."The man of God, a collective noun (see reply #7 above, second point that was covered by me to robycop3)~ meaning ALL who preach/teach in the name of the God of heaven is perfect, TROUGHLY furnished from heaven to teach/preach any truth and needs not to step outside of the word of God in order to fill in the blank spaces or pieces of the spiritual puzzle in order to make the connection from scripture to scriptures before they cannot KNOW that they have the truth on any particular subject that may be under consideration.
« Last Edit: Sun Jan 26, 2020 - 13:09:27 by RB »
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Reply #19 by robycop3
You simply choose not to believe Scripture, in favor of believing the garbage from Preston, Gentry, etc. you don't know history too well, nor pay attention to world events.
As I said, the creation of modern Israel (Judah) with Jerusalem as its capital, should be empirical evidence to all students of God's word & His prophecies, as well as Israel's repeated defeats of Egypt & her allies in battle. These are real events that should show everyone the literalness of God's prophecies.
« Sun Jan 26, 2020 - 06:01:39 »
Sounds like you're turned on imagining Satan's coming after you.
You shouldn't spit out vomit in public. Jesus left His "peace. "
No one believes that violent garbage you and Satan try to tell people.
Where's your "Good News?"
You simply choose not to believe Scripture, in favor of believing the garbage from Preston, Gentry, etc. you don't know history too well, nor pay attention to world events.
As I said, the creation of modern Israel (Judah) with Jerusalem as its capital, should be empirical evidence to all students of God's word & His prophecies, as well as Israel's repeated defeats of Egypt & her allies in battle. These are real events that should show everyone the literalness of God's prophecies.
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Reply #20 by RB
« Sun Jan 26, 2020 - 06:08:41 »
NONE of those men was the ULTIMATE antichrist who is yet to come. He will rule most of the WHOLE WORLD, not just a little patch of Asia Minor.Sir, I have one question to ask you and it is this: "according to the word of God, WHICH comes FIRST, Christ, or antichrist?" The scripture is unmistakably clear concerning this one question~your answer will at least proves whether or not you are starting out on the right path to the truth on eschatology as it is taught in the word of God.
« Last Edit: Sun Jan 26, 2020 - 13:09:50 by RB »
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Reply #21 by RB
« Sun Jan 26, 2020 - 06:31:09 »
You simply choose not to believe Scripture, in favor of believing the garbage from Preston, Gentry, etc. you don't know history too well, nor pay attention to world events.While I reject Preterism and half-baked Preterists doctrine known as Historicism~we also reject Premillianism that is causing Israel after the flesh to believe that they are God's chosen people while they live in total rejection of Jesus Christ, and New Testament theology that interprets their OT Scriptures. The religious leaders of the Premillennialism theology camp believe that if the US sends Israel a few of the Northrop Grumman B-2 Spirit bombers that we are doing God a service for his chosen people, which nothing could be farther from the truth!
As I said, the creation of modern Israel (Judah) with Jerusalem as its capital, should be empirical evidence to all students of God's word & His prophecies, as well as Israel's repeated defeats of Egypt & her allies in battle. These are real events that should show everyone the literalness of God's prophecies.
« Last Edit: Sun Jan 26, 2020 - 13:10:09 by RB »
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Reply #22 by 3 Resurrections
As you have stated, fortunately it is not our correct knowledge of this kind of topic that affects our salvation. There are actually weightier matters, which we are not to leave undone. Such as a sincere regard for our fellow-believer’s welfare. And I believe I read in one of your more recent comments that your sister had passed away? As you know well enough, there is no better place to rest our heart’s concern for those of our family who have died than in the utterly righteous and merciful hands of our Savior. The judge of all the earth will unfailingly do right, and He sees as man does not see. And I know that your beloved grandson is still heavily on your mind, for whom many prayers are still going up by those on this forum. Mine included.
I certainly did not intend to give anyone a headache by a recitation of historical events as linked to scripture’s predictions. But the study of the Zealot faction in Israel and how it relates to the “Man of Lawlessness” is not an extra-biblical one. One of Christ’s disciples that He called to follow Him was a Zealot (Simon Zelotes). Barabbas who “had done murder in the insurrection” and his two thief collaborators were Zealots who had been captured and condemned to death for inciting revolt against Rome (Mark 15:7).
Scripture in Isaiah 53:9,12 prophesied that Christ would be numbered with the “Lawless” at His death, which was fulfilled when He was crucified between those two “Lawless” Zealot thieves. The particular “Man of Lawlessness” that the Thessalonians were told was coming was also among this faction of these “Lawless” Zealots.
This turbulent Zealot faction in Israel was the cause of the “division” that Christ said would henceforth divide families from His time and forward in the nation of Israel (Luke 12:51-53). Pro-Romans just wanting to preserve the status quo would clash with anti-Roman rebellious sentiments, and the inevitable “brother against brother” war of “Gog” would finally break out between fellow-Israelites in AD 66.
And even though you do not acknowledge that Greek has any bearing on our interpretations of scripture, (which would astound the original KJV translators of your preferred version), the I John 2:18 verse about the Anti-christ who was coming uses the distinctive “ho” in front of the word “antichristos”, meaning that the term was referring to a very particular, singular individual - not a generic category. And this single distinctive individual (“ho antichristos”) is set in direct opposition to the “MANY anti-christs” who were already present in those days.
If this term was supposed to be a “collective noun” as you say, referring to any and all wicked men, then why would Paul have mentioned that this “collective noun” Man of Lawlessness was “COMING”? Such a category of Men would have been a continually-ongoing reality - not a category that would soon be “COMING” on the scene for the Thessalonians, according to Paul. This Man of Lawlessness was going to be “revealed”, which cannot be said of your typical generic category of wicked mankind, which has always been on obvious display for anyone honest enough to recognize mankind’s sinful proclivities.
And a side-note for robycop3: you are mixing up and conflating your cast of characters from both Revelation and I John. The Beast from the Sea in Rev. 13 is not the same identity as the single Anti-christ / Man of Lawlessness of I John, which is never mentioned in Revelation at all.
The single Anti-christ as well as the “many anti-christs” came out from AMONG the readers of I John 2:19 in their days. “They went out FROM US, but they were not of us, for if they had been if us, they would no doubt have continued with us, but they went out that they might be manifested that they were not all of us.”
The Anti-christ was NOT described as coming out of the “Sea”, which scripture has always used as a reference to the pagan Gentile nations of the world (for one example, Isaiah 60:5). You are ascribing a world-wide rule to the Anti-christ which scripture never said was going to be part of his resume, as it WAS with the Rev. 13 Sea Beast who had exercised control of the known world for 666 years as of the time John was writing Revelation.
« Sun Jan 26, 2020 - 08:53:55 »
Hi RB,As you have stated, fortunately it is not our correct knowledge of this kind of topic that affects our salvation. There are actually weightier matters, which we are not to leave undone. Such as a sincere regard for our fellow-believer’s welfare. And I believe I read in one of your more recent comments that your sister had passed away? As you know well enough, there is no better place to rest our heart’s concern for those of our family who have died than in the utterly righteous and merciful hands of our Savior. The judge of all the earth will unfailingly do right, and He sees as man does not see. And I know that your beloved grandson is still heavily on your mind, for whom many prayers are still going up by those on this forum. Mine included.
I certainly did not intend to give anyone a headache by a recitation of historical events as linked to scripture’s predictions. But the study of the Zealot faction in Israel and how it relates to the “Man of Lawlessness” is not an extra-biblical one. One of Christ’s disciples that He called to follow Him was a Zealot (Simon Zelotes). Barabbas who “had done murder in the insurrection” and his two thief collaborators were Zealots who had been captured and condemned to death for inciting revolt against Rome (Mark 15:7).
Scripture in Isaiah 53:9,12 prophesied that Christ would be numbered with the “Lawless” at His death, which was fulfilled when He was crucified between those two “Lawless” Zealot thieves. The particular “Man of Lawlessness” that the Thessalonians were told was coming was also among this faction of these “Lawless” Zealots.
This turbulent Zealot faction in Israel was the cause of the “division” that Christ said would henceforth divide families from His time and forward in the nation of Israel (Luke 12:51-53). Pro-Romans just wanting to preserve the status quo would clash with anti-Roman rebellious sentiments, and the inevitable “brother against brother” war of “Gog” would finally break out between fellow-Israelites in AD 66.
And even though you do not acknowledge that Greek has any bearing on our interpretations of scripture, (which would astound the original KJV translators of your preferred version), the I John 2:18 verse about the Anti-christ who was coming uses the distinctive “ho” in front of the word “antichristos”, meaning that the term was referring to a very particular, singular individual - not a generic category. And this single distinctive individual (“ho antichristos”) is set in direct opposition to the “MANY anti-christs” who were already present in those days.
If this term was supposed to be a “collective noun” as you say, referring to any and all wicked men, then why would Paul have mentioned that this “collective noun” Man of Lawlessness was “COMING”? Such a category of Men would have been a continually-ongoing reality - not a category that would soon be “COMING” on the scene for the Thessalonians, according to Paul. This Man of Lawlessness was going to be “revealed”, which cannot be said of your typical generic category of wicked mankind, which has always been on obvious display for anyone honest enough to recognize mankind’s sinful proclivities.
And a side-note for robycop3: you are mixing up and conflating your cast of characters from both Revelation and I John. The Beast from the Sea in Rev. 13 is not the same identity as the single Anti-christ / Man of Lawlessness of I John, which is never mentioned in Revelation at all.
The single Anti-christ as well as the “many anti-christs” came out from AMONG the readers of I John 2:19 in their days. “They went out FROM US, but they were not of us, for if they had been if us, they would no doubt have continued with us, but they went out that they might be manifested that they were not all of us.”
The Anti-christ was NOT described as coming out of the “Sea”, which scripture has always used as a reference to the pagan Gentile nations of the world (for one example, Isaiah 60:5). You are ascribing a world-wide rule to the Anti-christ which scripture never said was going to be part of his resume, as it WAS with the Rev. 13 Sea Beast who had exercised control of the known world for 666 years as of the time John was writing Revelation.
« Last Edit: Sun Jan 26, 2020 - 12:35:49 by Jaime »
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Reply #23 by robycop3
Naturally, Christ came first, but some antichrists made themselves soon as He began His ministry.
But the ULTIMATE AC, who will be indwelt by Satan himself, has not yet been made manifest.
« Mon Jan 27, 2020 - 01:20:46 »
Sir, I have one question to ask you and it is this: "according to the word of God, WHICH comes FIRST, Christ, or antichrist?" The scripture is unmistakably clear concerning this one question~your answer will at least proves whether or not you are starting out on the right path to the truth on eschatology as it is taught in the word of God.
Naturally, Christ came first, but some antichrists made themselves soon as He began His ministry.
But the ULTIMATE AC, who will be indwelt by Satan himself, has not yet been made manifest.
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Reply #24 by robycop3
« Mon Jan 27, 2020 - 01:26:32 »
3 Resurrections, a prince of the people that'll destroy Jerusalem after Daniel's time, (the Romans) the antichrist, the man of sin, "that Wicked", & the other son of perdition besides Iscariot, will all be one & the same man. Daniel, Paul, & Revelation all say he will reject God & anything else worshipped, & will proclaim himself to be God. And no one has controlled the world for 666 years. That's nonsense.
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Reply #25 by RB
So which come FIRST according to your understanding~Christ, or the man of sin? So much in these few scriptures, that pretty well lays the end-time events out in order for us. Also, these scriptures reveal who the man of sin is and the power under which the man of sin does his evil deeds. Second Thessalonians mirrors Matthews 24 perfectly. and John's writing in Revelation. The scriptures are their OWN INTERPRETER for us if we just believe them and trust them to give us God's truth for us to believe and beware of men who labor to deceive the very elect, which is impossible to do so completely, only partly is the best that men working under the power of Satan can do. Sad to say that we all have drunk poison, only to live to tell about it and try hard to keep others from doing so. Mark 16:18.
« Mon Jan 27, 2020 - 04:56:17 »
Naturally, Christ came first, but some antichrists made themselves soon as He began His ministry.You missed my question~AT the end of this dispensation which will happen FIRST, the appearing of the antichrist, OR, will Christ come and gather together his elect and then destroy the man of sin. 2nd Thessalonians chapters one and two are very clear which will come first and the order of the events before Christ's coming to gather his elect from the four winds of heaven. Paul said that three things will happen BEFORE the appearance of Jesus Christ and the destruction of the wicked.
But the ULTIMATE AC, who will be indwelt by Satan himself, has not yet been made manifest.
Quote from: Paul's Timeline of Events leading up to the coming of Jesus Christ
2nd Thessalonians 2:1-12~Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.""They"is a pronoun being used to explain the collective nouns MAN OF SIN, son of perdition, that Wicked, etc.!
So which come FIRST according to your understanding~Christ, or the man of sin? So much in these few scriptures, that pretty well lays the end-time events out in order for us. Also, these scriptures reveal who the man of sin is and the power under which the man of sin does his evil deeds. Second Thessalonians mirrors Matthews 24 perfectly. and John's writing in Revelation. The scriptures are their OWN INTERPRETER for us if we just believe them and trust them to give us God's truth for us to believe and beware of men who labor to deceive the very elect, which is impossible to do so completely, only partly is the best that men working under the power of Satan can do. Sad to say that we all have drunk poison, only to live to tell about it and try hard to keep others from doing so. Mark 16:18.
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.Selah!
« Last Edit: Mon Jan 27, 2020 - 06:10:01 by RB »
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Reply #26 by 3 Resurrections
Agreed that all these titles refer to the same individual man - the single “Anti-christ” rising out of the many present in John’s days, the “Son of Perdition /Destruction”, “That Wicked” or “That Lawless [one]”, and “That Man of Sin”. But you are arbitrarily merging the identity of Daniel’s “Prince that shall COME” with these other titles, which can’t be done.
The very same context of Daniel 9:26 tells you the identity of that “Prince that shall COME”. It’s “MESSIAH the Prince” in Daniel 9:25, who would COME to His own people at the ending of the 69th week, and who would be “cut off” afterward out of the land of the living at His crucifixion.
The “PEOPLE of the Prince that shall come” were the “holy people” whose power was “shattered” at the close of AD 70 (Daniel 12:7). This is a common moniker for the people of Israel. God often referred to them simply as “The People” (Gen. 49:10), or when speaking to Daniel, “Thy People” (Dan. 10:14, 12:1). Example: the blessing that Moses gave to the children of Israel before his death in Deuteronomy33:3, 5. “Yeah, He loved THE PEOPLE; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words....And He was king in Jeshurun, when the heads of THE PEOPLE and the tribes of Israel were gathered together.”
These “PEOPLE” (ethnic Israelites) “of the Prince that shall come” (“Messiah the Prince”, who “came unto His own”) were the very ones who “destroyed the city and the sanctuary” by their own civil war strife in the city of Jerusalem and the nation during the AD 66-70 years.
Rome was not anywhere present in the city of Jerusalem from the time that Cestius Gallus was defeated by the Zealots in the fall of AD 66 until Titus came at Passover week in AD 70. In between that time, Rome’s strategy for taking down Jerusalem was to allow the warring Zealot factions within it to “eat their own”, thus weakening the city’s defenses.
The Zealots with their plans of revolt against Rome originated primarily from “Galilee of the Gentiles”. These were the very ones who were given 42 months to “tread under foot” the holy city Rev. 11:2, which they literally fulfilled.
The “end” of the city under Titus’ final assault came like a “flood”, just as Daniel 9:27 predicted. But UNTIL that final end under the Romans, those desolations and abominations committed by the Zealots against their own people would “over spread” the city, up “until the consummation” when the city finally fell after the AD 70 arrival of the Roman armies.
This CIVIL strife in Judea - and Jerusalem in particular - between the competing Zealot factions in those first-century years is well-documented, both scripturally and historically. Zechariah 12:6 and 14:13-14 are but two examples. “In that day” (of the “siege both against Judah and Jerusalem”) “will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall DEVOUR ALL THE PEOPLE round about, on the right hand and the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.” Even Judah, which was supposed to be the law-giver tribe, would fight at Jerusalem, when every mans hand would be against his neighbor’s in that day.
The Jews had become their own worst enemy at this point. The “Man of Lawlessness” (Menahem) was only the first Zealot leader of Israel who fought his way to the top at the beginning of this suicidal AD 66-70 period when “every man’s sword shall be against his brother’s” (Ezekiel 38:21). We can credit this suicidal mental condition in Judea to the hordes of unclean spirits who came to deceive the nation on a 7-fold, unprecedented scale at that time, just as Christ prophesied for that wicked generation in Matt. 12:43-45
« Mon Jan 27, 2020 - 07:05:25 »
Hi robycop3,Agreed that all these titles refer to the same individual man - the single “Anti-christ” rising out of the many present in John’s days, the “Son of Perdition /Destruction”, “That Wicked” or “That Lawless [one]”, and “That Man of Sin”. But you are arbitrarily merging the identity of Daniel’s “Prince that shall COME” with these other titles, which can’t be done.
The very same context of Daniel 9:26 tells you the identity of that “Prince that shall COME”. It’s “MESSIAH the Prince” in Daniel 9:25, who would COME to His own people at the ending of the 69th week, and who would be “cut off” afterward out of the land of the living at His crucifixion.
The “PEOPLE of the Prince that shall come” were the “holy people” whose power was “shattered” at the close of AD 70 (Daniel 12:7). This is a common moniker for the people of Israel. God often referred to them simply as “The People” (Gen. 49:10), or when speaking to Daniel, “Thy People” (Dan. 10:14, 12:1). Example: the blessing that Moses gave to the children of Israel before his death in Deuteronomy33:3, 5. “Yeah, He loved THE PEOPLE; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words....And He was king in Jeshurun, when the heads of THE PEOPLE and the tribes of Israel were gathered together.”
These “PEOPLE” (ethnic Israelites) “of the Prince that shall come” (“Messiah the Prince”, who “came unto His own”) were the very ones who “destroyed the city and the sanctuary” by their own civil war strife in the city of Jerusalem and the nation during the AD 66-70 years.
Rome was not anywhere present in the city of Jerusalem from the time that Cestius Gallus was defeated by the Zealots in the fall of AD 66 until Titus came at Passover week in AD 70. In between that time, Rome’s strategy for taking down Jerusalem was to allow the warring Zealot factions within it to “eat their own”, thus weakening the city’s defenses.
The Zealots with their plans of revolt against Rome originated primarily from “Galilee of the Gentiles”. These were the very ones who were given 42 months to “tread under foot” the holy city Rev. 11:2, which they literally fulfilled.
The “end” of the city under Titus’ final assault came like a “flood”, just as Daniel 9:27 predicted. But UNTIL that final end under the Romans, those desolations and abominations committed by the Zealots against their own people would “over spread” the city, up “until the consummation” when the city finally fell after the AD 70 arrival of the Roman armies.
This CIVIL strife in Judea - and Jerusalem in particular - between the competing Zealot factions in those first-century years is well-documented, both scripturally and historically. Zechariah 12:6 and 14:13-14 are but two examples. “In that day” (of the “siege both against Judah and Jerusalem”) “will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall DEVOUR ALL THE PEOPLE round about, on the right hand and the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.” Even Judah, which was supposed to be the law-giver tribe, would fight at Jerusalem, when every mans hand would be against his neighbor’s in that day.
The Jews had become their own worst enemy at this point. The “Man of Lawlessness” (Menahem) was only the first Zealot leader of Israel who fought his way to the top at the beginning of this suicidal AD 66-70 period when “every man’s sword shall be against his brother’s” (Ezekiel 38:21). We can credit this suicidal mental condition in Judea to the hordes of unclean spirits who came to deceive the nation on a 7-fold, unprecedented scale at that time, just as Christ prophesied for that wicked generation in Matt. 12:43-45
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Reply #27 by 3 Resurrections
The particular “THEY” and “THEM” you are highlighting in II Thess. 2:10 is referring to those who are DECEIVED by the single man who was to be the DECEIVER. You can’t have one without the other. The single “Man of Sin” who came deceptively (like the master-deceiver Satan) would end up deceiving those that did not receive the love of the truth, and would end up perishing.
And this single man was not destroyed at the time of CHRIST’S coming - He was destroyed almost immediately at the time of HIS OWN DECEPTIVE COMING into power. Read the rest of the whole sentence in II Thess. 2:8-9. The only “coming” referred to in that context is the one that is “after the working of Satan...”. Surely you don’t think that the Lord’s coming is characterized by lying deception?
This single “Man of Sin” was destroyed along with the brightness of HIS OWN deceptive coming into power. The Lord consumed this single evil man at the same time he consumed the (evil) spirit of this man’s own (deceptive) mouth. This Anti-christ / Man of Sin was a mere “flash in the pan”, as it were. No sooner did he exalt himself in the Jerusalem Temple as the “King of the Jews” than he was destroyed as soon as the brightness of his coming was manifested.
It is mistake to give such vast, world-wide, supernatural capabilities to this individual, as many pre-mil disp. have done. He was only a sign post. As the FIRST leader in Israel to militarily present himself in Jerusalem’s temple (as a substitute “False Christ” in a supposed fulfillment of Daniel’s prophesied “Messiah the Prince”), this “Man of Sin” was only supposed to provide a time marker for the Thessalonians to recognize. This event when the “Man of Sin” came briefly into power was supposed to alert them that Christ’s imminent return would soon arrive “IMMEDIATELY AFTER” the end of that Great Tribulation era - Matt. 24:29 - (which Great Tribulation had begun with that brief manifestation of the “Man of Sin”). This was an encouragement for the Thessalonian saints to remain faithful - even unto death - since any persecuted saints would be bodily resurrected if they died before that day arrived in their near future.
« Mon Jan 27, 2020 - 07:49:24 »
Hi RB,The particular “THEY” and “THEM” you are highlighting in II Thess. 2:10 is referring to those who are DECEIVED by the single man who was to be the DECEIVER. You can’t have one without the other. The single “Man of Sin” who came deceptively (like the master-deceiver Satan) would end up deceiving those that did not receive the love of the truth, and would end up perishing.
And this single man was not destroyed at the time of CHRIST’S coming - He was destroyed almost immediately at the time of HIS OWN DECEPTIVE COMING into power. Read the rest of the whole sentence in II Thess. 2:8-9. The only “coming” referred to in that context is the one that is “after the working of Satan...”. Surely you don’t think that the Lord’s coming is characterized by lying deception?
This single “Man of Sin” was destroyed along with the brightness of HIS OWN deceptive coming into power. The Lord consumed this single evil man at the same time he consumed the (evil) spirit of this man’s own (deceptive) mouth. This Anti-christ / Man of Sin was a mere “flash in the pan”, as it were. No sooner did he exalt himself in the Jerusalem Temple as the “King of the Jews” than he was destroyed as soon as the brightness of his coming was manifested.
It is mistake to give such vast, world-wide, supernatural capabilities to this individual, as many pre-mil disp. have done. He was only a sign post. As the FIRST leader in Israel to militarily present himself in Jerusalem’s temple (as a substitute “False Christ” in a supposed fulfillment of Daniel’s prophesied “Messiah the Prince”), this “Man of Sin” was only supposed to provide a time marker for the Thessalonians to recognize. This event when the “Man of Sin” came briefly into power was supposed to alert them that Christ’s imminent return would soon arrive “IMMEDIATELY AFTER” the end of that Great Tribulation era - Matt. 24:29 - (which Great Tribulation had begun with that brief manifestation of the “Man of Sin”). This was an encouragement for the Thessalonian saints to remain faithful - even unto death - since any persecuted saints would be bodily resurrected if they died before that day arrived in their near future.
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Reply #28 by robycop3
The prince I was referring to is the one of Daniel 9:26, not the Messiah of V25.
And the Romans definitely razed the temple, believing there was gold between its stones. They also finished razing the city, as a hot spot of insurrection. That fulfilled part of the prophecy of Dan. 9:26. the 'beast' will fulfill the rest.
While the Zealots caused quite a bit of destruction, the Romans were the main destroyers in 70 AD.
« Mon Jan 27, 2020 - 11:17:10 »
Hi, 3 R!The prince I was referring to is the one of Daniel 9:26, not the Messiah of V25.
And the Romans definitely razed the temple, believing there was gold between its stones. They also finished razing the city, as a hot spot of insurrection. That fulfilled part of the prophecy of Dan. 9:26. the 'beast' will fulfill the rest.
While the Zealots caused quite a bit of destruction, the Romans were the main destroyers in 70 AD.
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Reply #29 by 3 Resurrections
It was never going to be the “Prince” that destroyed the city and the Temple; it was the PEOPLE of that Prince that would be doing the actual destruction.
The Daniel 9:25 “Messiah the Prince” who would come after the 69th week of years was the SAME ONE as “The Prince that shall come” in Daniel 9:26.
Did you never hear of the writing technique called “the rule of first mention”? Google it if you aren’t sure, as I did. A writer will first mention a particular term, and then shortly afterward, they will refer to the same original term again using “THE” as an article in front of that term. As in this set of sentences for example: “Robycop3 wrote a post called ‘It Never Happened’. He repeated the theme of THE post in many other similar posts.” The SAME POST is being referred back to, when it is mentioned that second time.
The very same thing is done with Daniel 9:25 and 9:26. In BOTH verses the author Daniel was referring to the same Prince, because he refers back to Him by calling Him “THE Prince that shall come” - i.e., the same “Messiah the Prince” mentioned just one verse earlier.
That “Messiah the Prince” who would come was also identified as the “HE” in Dan. 9:27 who would “confirm the covenant” with many for the last 70th week of years. Christ was called “The Messenger of the Covenant” in Malachi 3:1. Jesus said that He was sent primarily to this remnant of the “lost sheep of Israel” during His ministry. That New Covenant of the kingdom of God was confirmed with many ethnic Israelites who believed in Him, from the beginning of Christ’s miraculous ministry in AD 30 until God commissioned the apostle Paul in AD 37 to leave the Jerusalem Temple and devote his concentrated energies to the Gentiles instead (Acts 22:17-21). From AD 30-37 for that last 70th week’s fulfillment.
As to your last point that Rome was the “main destroyer” of Jerusalem back then, that’s not quite correct. Rome and Titus may have dealt the final finishing blows to the city, but they were NOT the ones “treading the holy city and the sanctuary underfoot” for those 42 months (Rev. 11:2). Josephus and the former high priest Ananus ben Annas testified that the Zealot insurgents were the main cause of most of the desolations in Judea and Jerusalem - not Rome.
(Wars 4.3.2) Those Zealots citizens of Judea who desired to go to war “got together in bodies, in order to rob the people of the country, insomuch that for the barbarity and iniquity, those of the same nation did in no way differ from the Romans; nay, it seemed to be a MUCH LIGHTER THING to be ruined by the ROMANS than by THEMSELVES.”
(Wars 4.3.3) The “captains of these troops of robbers” who had crept into Jerusalem, Josephus said, “besides the seditions they raised, were otherwise THE DIRECT CAUSE OF THE CITY’ S DESTRUCTION ALSO; for as they were an unprofitable and useless multitude, they spend those provisions beforehand, which might otherwise have been sufficient for the fighting men. Moreover, besides the bringing on of the war, THEY were the occasion of SEDITION AND FAMINE therein.”
In Wars 4.4.3-362, Ananus told the Idumeans invading Jerusalem that both the city and the temple itself were being “trampled upon by these WILD BEASTS BORN AMONG OURSELVES” - speaking of the Zealot factions that were then ravaging Jerusalem and preying upon the people.
All this Josephus said was in prophetic fulfillment of a “certain ancient oracle of those men,” (Zechariah, Ezekiel, or Daniel) “that the city should then be taken and the sanctuary burnt, by right of war, when a sedition should invade the Jews, and THEIR OWN HAND SHOULD POLLUTE THE TEMPLE OF GOD. Now, while these Zealots did not quite disbelieve these predictions, THEY MADE THEMSELVES THE INSTRUMENTS OF THEIR ACCOMPLISHMENT.” (Wars 4.6.3).
I repeat, the people of Israel were their own worst enemy by the rampant civil strife among themselves at that period. Rome used this knowledge to their advantage in gaining an easier victory over Jerusalem at the very end than they otherwise would have had, if civil warfare had not devastated the people and the city’s condition beforehand.
And for your earlier protest a couple comments back that 666 years is “nonsense” for a man to have world-wide reign over the known world? This was Daniel’s *STATUE* OF A MAN, which was a representation of the 4 world-wide empires of Chaldea, the Medes and Persians, the Greeks, and finally the Romans.
All four features of Daniel’s 4 beasts are present in the Rev. 13:2 Sea Beast, meaning that the composite biography of the Sea Beast was as old as the oldest empire mentioned (the lion feature of this Sea Beast). That means the Sea Beast’s corporate biography started in 607 BC with the beginning of Daniel’s 70-year exile under Nebuchadnezzar. It’s biography had lasted 666 years up to the year John was writing Revelation in late AD 59 to early AD 60.
« Tue Jan 28, 2020 - 13:40:32 »
Hey robycop3,It was never going to be the “Prince” that destroyed the city and the Temple; it was the PEOPLE of that Prince that would be doing the actual destruction.
The Daniel 9:25 “Messiah the Prince” who would come after the 69th week of years was the SAME ONE as “The Prince that shall come” in Daniel 9:26.
Did you never hear of the writing technique called “the rule of first mention”? Google it if you aren’t sure, as I did. A writer will first mention a particular term, and then shortly afterward, they will refer to the same original term again using “THE” as an article in front of that term. As in this set of sentences for example: “Robycop3 wrote a post called ‘It Never Happened’. He repeated the theme of THE post in many other similar posts.” The SAME POST is being referred back to, when it is mentioned that second time.
The very same thing is done with Daniel 9:25 and 9:26. In BOTH verses the author Daniel was referring to the same Prince, because he refers back to Him by calling Him “THE Prince that shall come” - i.e., the same “Messiah the Prince” mentioned just one verse earlier.
That “Messiah the Prince” who would come was also identified as the “HE” in Dan. 9:27 who would “confirm the covenant” with many for the last 70th week of years. Christ was called “The Messenger of the Covenant” in Malachi 3:1. Jesus said that He was sent primarily to this remnant of the “lost sheep of Israel” during His ministry. That New Covenant of the kingdom of God was confirmed with many ethnic Israelites who believed in Him, from the beginning of Christ’s miraculous ministry in AD 30 until God commissioned the apostle Paul in AD 37 to leave the Jerusalem Temple and devote his concentrated energies to the Gentiles instead (Acts 22:17-21). From AD 30-37 for that last 70th week’s fulfillment.
As to your last point that Rome was the “main destroyer” of Jerusalem back then, that’s not quite correct. Rome and Titus may have dealt the final finishing blows to the city, but they were NOT the ones “treading the holy city and the sanctuary underfoot” for those 42 months (Rev. 11:2). Josephus and the former high priest Ananus ben Annas testified that the Zealot insurgents were the main cause of most of the desolations in Judea and Jerusalem - not Rome.
(Wars 4.3.2) Those Zealots citizens of Judea who desired to go to war “got together in bodies, in order to rob the people of the country, insomuch that for the barbarity and iniquity, those of the same nation did in no way differ from the Romans; nay, it seemed to be a MUCH LIGHTER THING to be ruined by the ROMANS than by THEMSELVES.”
(Wars 4.3.3) The “captains of these troops of robbers” who had crept into Jerusalem, Josephus said, “besides the seditions they raised, were otherwise THE DIRECT CAUSE OF THE CITY’ S DESTRUCTION ALSO; for as they were an unprofitable and useless multitude, they spend those provisions beforehand, which might otherwise have been sufficient for the fighting men. Moreover, besides the bringing on of the war, THEY were the occasion of SEDITION AND FAMINE therein.”
In Wars 4.4.3-362, Ananus told the Idumeans invading Jerusalem that both the city and the temple itself were being “trampled upon by these WILD BEASTS BORN AMONG OURSELVES” - speaking of the Zealot factions that were then ravaging Jerusalem and preying upon the people.
All this Josephus said was in prophetic fulfillment of a “certain ancient oracle of those men,” (Zechariah, Ezekiel, or Daniel) “that the city should then be taken and the sanctuary burnt, by right of war, when a sedition should invade the Jews, and THEIR OWN HAND SHOULD POLLUTE THE TEMPLE OF GOD. Now, while these Zealots did not quite disbelieve these predictions, THEY MADE THEMSELVES THE INSTRUMENTS OF THEIR ACCOMPLISHMENT.” (Wars 4.6.3).
I repeat, the people of Israel were their own worst enemy by the rampant civil strife among themselves at that period. Rome used this knowledge to their advantage in gaining an easier victory over Jerusalem at the very end than they otherwise would have had, if civil warfare had not devastated the people and the city’s condition beforehand.
And for your earlier protest a couple comments back that 666 years is “nonsense” for a man to have world-wide reign over the known world? This was Daniel’s *STATUE* OF A MAN, which was a representation of the 4 world-wide empires of Chaldea, the Medes and Persians, the Greeks, and finally the Romans.
All four features of Daniel’s 4 beasts are present in the Rev. 13:2 Sea Beast, meaning that the composite biography of the Sea Beast was as old as the oldest empire mentioned (the lion feature of this Sea Beast). That means the Sea Beast’s corporate biography started in 607 BC with the beginning of Daniel’s 70-year exile under Nebuchadnezzar. It’s biography had lasted 666 years up to the year John was writing Revelation in late AD 59 to early AD 60.
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Reply #30 by robycop3
And Jesus is not a prince of the Romans; He is a Jew by His human line.
The prince of Dan. 9:26 is NOT Jesus. This prince will be the 'beast'.
And I suggest you study the 70 AD destruction of J & the temple more-closely. They would NOT have been destroyed if not for the Romans. You're trying to make a point without any basis in fact.
« Wed Jan 29, 2020 - 01:26:32 »
Jerusalem is still being trod underfoot by gentiles, as proven by the constant parade of Moslems to the Dome of the Rock & Al-Aqsa Mosque, as well as the parade of non-Jewish Christians to the various Christian shrines within the city - as well as its many Palestinian inhabitants. And Jesus is not a prince of the Romans; He is a Jew by His human line.
The prince of Dan. 9:26 is NOT Jesus. This prince will be the 'beast'.
And I suggest you study the 70 AD destruction of J & the temple more-closely. They would NOT have been destroyed if not for the Romans. You're trying to make a point without any basis in fact.
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Reply #31 by 3 Resurrections
Notwithstanding the modern state of affairs in Jerusalem up until today, the distinct period of 42 MONTHS of the city AND THE SANCTUARY being trodden underfoot by the Gentiles in Rev. 11:2 was specifically fulfilled by the Zealot factions from the time they defeated Cestius Gallus’ legion in early October of AD 66 until Passover of AD 70 when Titus arrived at Jerusalem. 42 MONTHS EXACTLY. Starting in AD 66 with the Zealot leader Menahem, the “Man of Lawlessness”.
You may wish to connect Rev. 11:2 to the multi-national presence of various countries in Jerusalem during modern times, but it can’t be done. It is not at all relevant to Rev. 11:2, because there is no existing sanctuary in place with its courts being “trodden underfoot”, and hasn’t been since AD 70. The current “Dome of the Rock” is planted on the platform where the massive Roman Antonia fortress once stood, and the “Wailing Wall” is nothing more than the base foundation wall of that Roman Antonia fortress.
(Actually, God has an ironic sense of humor by allowing Muslim control of that platform where His Son was once scourged by the Roman soldiers, with His blood spattering the stones. Muslims demand that everyone remove their shoes before entering this site, as a token of reverence for what they consider holy ground. Little do they know that they are unconsciously giving honor to the Son of God’s sufferings on that very site.)
As far as the “treading underfoot by the Gentiles” is concerned, at NO POINT in between these 42 months from AD 66-70 was Rome or its armies present anywhere in the city of Jerusalem. One or another of the Zealot factions and their competing leaders were causing desolations in the city and the sanctuary during that ENTIRE period of 42 months. Their seditious Zealot cause and its competing leaders originated mainly from “Galilee of the GENTILES” (meaning “nations”), with the “Man of Sin” (Menahem) descending from Judas the Galilean Zealot.
The nation of Idumea also came to fight against the leaders of Jerusalem during this period of 42 months. As did all the members of “Gog’s” armies (Simon bar Giora), whose vast army coming against Jerusalem in AD 69 was composed of men from a number of different nations.
These Zealot factions in Israel caused the “overspreading of abominations” spoken of in Dan. 9:27, due to these particular groups of “THE PEOPLE of the Prince that shall come”. Also known as “Messiah the Prince” of His OWN PEOPLE the Jews, that is, who “came unto His own, and His own received Him not”. Even Pilate wrote an inscription above Christ’s head that He was “The King of the Jews”, which the Jewish leadership wanted to deny.
There is absolutely no mention of a “Beast” whatever in this Daniel 9:25-27 context as you are proposing. The “Beast” identity in Daniel and Revelation represents a CORPORATE entity, such as an empire or a kingdom - not a SINGLE INDIVIDUAL man such as the Man of Sin was to be.
« Wed Jan 29, 2020 - 11:09:39 »
LOL, hey robycop3, I’ve done my best to devote the last 7 years to continual study of this period of history as related to the scriptures that they describe. What more do you expect me to do? What I have written regarding it amounts to a stack of paper more than a foot high and growing.Notwithstanding the modern state of affairs in Jerusalem up until today, the distinct period of 42 MONTHS of the city AND THE SANCTUARY being trodden underfoot by the Gentiles in Rev. 11:2 was specifically fulfilled by the Zealot factions from the time they defeated Cestius Gallus’ legion in early October of AD 66 until Passover of AD 70 when Titus arrived at Jerusalem. 42 MONTHS EXACTLY. Starting in AD 66 with the Zealot leader Menahem, the “Man of Lawlessness”.
You may wish to connect Rev. 11:2 to the multi-national presence of various countries in Jerusalem during modern times, but it can’t be done. It is not at all relevant to Rev. 11:2, because there is no existing sanctuary in place with its courts being “trodden underfoot”, and hasn’t been since AD 70. The current “Dome of the Rock” is planted on the platform where the massive Roman Antonia fortress once stood, and the “Wailing Wall” is nothing more than the base foundation wall of that Roman Antonia fortress.
(Actually, God has an ironic sense of humor by allowing Muslim control of that platform where His Son was once scourged by the Roman soldiers, with His blood spattering the stones. Muslims demand that everyone remove their shoes before entering this site, as a token of reverence for what they consider holy ground. Little do they know that they are unconsciously giving honor to the Son of God’s sufferings on that very site.)
As far as the “treading underfoot by the Gentiles” is concerned, at NO POINT in between these 42 months from AD 66-70 was Rome or its armies present anywhere in the city of Jerusalem. One or another of the Zealot factions and their competing leaders were causing desolations in the city and the sanctuary during that ENTIRE period of 42 months. Their seditious Zealot cause and its competing leaders originated mainly from “Galilee of the GENTILES” (meaning “nations”), with the “Man of Sin” (Menahem) descending from Judas the Galilean Zealot.
The nation of Idumea also came to fight against the leaders of Jerusalem during this period of 42 months. As did all the members of “Gog’s” armies (Simon bar Giora), whose vast army coming against Jerusalem in AD 69 was composed of men from a number of different nations.
These Zealot factions in Israel caused the “overspreading of abominations” spoken of in Dan. 9:27, due to these particular groups of “THE PEOPLE of the Prince that shall come”. Also known as “Messiah the Prince” of His OWN PEOPLE the Jews, that is, who “came unto His own, and His own received Him not”. Even Pilate wrote an inscription above Christ’s head that He was “The King of the Jews”, which the Jewish leadership wanted to deny.
There is absolutely no mention of a “Beast” whatever in this Daniel 9:25-27 context as you are proposing. The “Beast” identity in Daniel and Revelation represents a CORPORATE entity, such as an empire or a kingdom - not a SINGLE INDIVIDUAL man such as the Man of Sin was to be.
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Reply #32 by robycop3
God added details to His prophecy about the 'beast' over time. He first mentioned him to Daniel in Dan. 9:26, then, to Paul in 2 Thess. 2, & then, in the Revelation. He is ID'd as a Roman prince in Daniel, then, in 2 Thess. as a man who will proclaim himself to be God, & in Revelation as a powerful ruler who will be in power when Jesus returns.
All those indications are of ONE MAN. No mention of any "corporate body" or group of people.
Please bear that fact in mind, that scripture indicates ONE MAN, & to try to add new MEANINGS to Scripture is as sinful as trying to change its actual words.
« Thu Jan 30, 2020 - 00:53:34 »
Hi, 3R!God added details to His prophecy about the 'beast' over time. He first mentioned him to Daniel in Dan. 9:26, then, to Paul in 2 Thess. 2, & then, in the Revelation. He is ID'd as a Roman prince in Daniel, then, in 2 Thess. as a man who will proclaim himself to be God, & in Revelation as a powerful ruler who will be in power when Jesus returns.
All those indications are of ONE MAN. No mention of any "corporate body" or group of people.
Please bear that fact in mind, that scripture indicates ONE MAN, & to try to add new MEANINGS to Scripture is as sinful as trying to change its actual words.
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Reply #33 by 3 Resurrections
Two points we agree on: God expanded details of revelation about the Fourth Beast from Daniel to Revelation, and that the “Man of Lawlessness” is considered to be a single individual.
But these two are not the same identity. Their origin was to come from two totally different sources. Daniel’s Fourth Beast empire came out of the “Sea” of pagan Gentile nations (Rev 13:1 and Dan. 7:3). The single Anti-christ individual (as well as the many anti-christs) came out from AMONG JOHN’S READERS (I John 2:19).
Yours is a common interpretation to call the Sea Beast and the Anti-Christ the same thing, but actually there is no scripture foundation for this conflating of the two different identities. No verse can be found that equates them as one and the same thing.
The use of the Beast imagery in Daniel and Revelation was ALWAYS connected to an EMPIRE or a KINGDOM (Chaldean, Medo-Persian, Greek, Roman, and Judean). Individual men as kings are mentioned as incorporated PARTS of those empires or kingdoms. In other words, the individual “heads” or “horns” were only individual PARTS of the Beast that they came out of.
The single individual “Man of Lawlessness” came at the beginning of the time period when the Judean Scarlet Beast kingdom appearing in the wilderness had newly risen again to existence in AD 66 by the Zealot uprising. This independent kingdom nation of Israel (the Scarlet Beast of Rev. 17) which began minting its own currency as a sovereign nation that year was “ABOUT TO ARISE” in John’s days when he was writing Revelation in AD 59/60.
This Scarlet Beast and everything that was part of it was also about to go into destruction soon in AD 70, according to Rev. 17:8. “The beast which thou sawest was, and is not, and is ABOUT TO COME UP OUT OF THE ABYSS, AND INTO DESTRUCTION TO GO.” Anything that was ABOUT TO GO INTO DESTRUCTION in John’s days has absolutely no threat for us today, almost 2,00 years later. That also applies to anything that once was part of that Scarlet Beast’s time period, such as the single individual “Man of Lawlessness”.
« Sat Feb 01, 2020 - 03:40:12 »
Hi robycop3,Two points we agree on: God expanded details of revelation about the Fourth Beast from Daniel to Revelation, and that the “Man of Lawlessness” is considered to be a single individual.
But these two are not the same identity. Their origin was to come from two totally different sources. Daniel’s Fourth Beast empire came out of the “Sea” of pagan Gentile nations (Rev 13:1 and Dan. 7:3). The single Anti-christ individual (as well as the many anti-christs) came out from AMONG JOHN’S READERS (I John 2:19).
Yours is a common interpretation to call the Sea Beast and the Anti-Christ the same thing, but actually there is no scripture foundation for this conflating of the two different identities. No verse can be found that equates them as one and the same thing.
The use of the Beast imagery in Daniel and Revelation was ALWAYS connected to an EMPIRE or a KINGDOM (Chaldean, Medo-Persian, Greek, Roman, and Judean). Individual men as kings are mentioned as incorporated PARTS of those empires or kingdoms. In other words, the individual “heads” or “horns” were only individual PARTS of the Beast that they came out of.
The single individual “Man of Lawlessness” came at the beginning of the time period when the Judean Scarlet Beast kingdom appearing in the wilderness had newly risen again to existence in AD 66 by the Zealot uprising. This independent kingdom nation of Israel (the Scarlet Beast of Rev. 17) which began minting its own currency as a sovereign nation that year was “ABOUT TO ARISE” in John’s days when he was writing Revelation in AD 59/60.
This Scarlet Beast and everything that was part of it was also about to go into destruction soon in AD 70, according to Rev. 17:8. “The beast which thou sawest was, and is not, and is ABOUT TO COME UP OUT OF THE ABYSS, AND INTO DESTRUCTION TO GO.” Anything that was ABOUT TO GO INTO DESTRUCTION in John’s days has absolutely no threat for us today, almost 2,00 years later. That also applies to anything that once was part of that Scarlet Beast’s time period, such as the single individual “Man of Lawlessness”.
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Reply #34 by Choir Loft
THE ANTI-CHRIST HAS BEEN REVEALED.
All that is needed to identify the man is knowledge of history and correct Biblical interpretation.
The anti-Christ of Revelation 13 is the Pope, the spiritual leader of the Roman Catholic church.
The name of the anti-Christ is also a number.
Traditional language of the Roman Catholic church is Latin. Latin letters and also be transliterated as numbers. Therefore the letters of the name of Pope John Paul II can be tallied as six hundred sixty-six.
(see chart of letters at: http://remnantofgod.org/666.htm)
Revelation 13 states that a beast will arise out of the sea.
The context of the Bible ALWAYS represents a beast as a system, organization or nation. Some scholars refer to it as a 'force' or 'trend'.
The beast is NOT a man. It is a religious system. See Revelation for a description of this parasitic religion - also described as the whore of Babylon.
Revelation 17 defines the sea as people or a general population of people. Therefore the correct interpretation of Revelation 13 describes a religious system arising out of a population of people.
The small horn that exalts itself and which arises out of the beast is a religious leader that arises out of the religious system.
The small horn, which arises out of the beastly organization, exalts itself against God.
The man, or leader, is said to commit blaspheme. Biblical definition of blaspheme is to claim to be God. Jesus was hated and persecuted by Jewish priests of His day because He (Jesus) claimed to be God. The priests accused Jesus of blaspheme. Therefore, when the Bible says the anti-Christ would commit blaspheme it tells us this religious leader would claim to be God on earth. The quote that follows is an established statement of the Catholic church.
"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth." - Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, “Cities Petrus Bertanous”
Revelation 13 states that the anti-Christ will suffer a fatal head wound which will later be healed.
In the year 1798 the military forces of Napoleon Bonaparte arrested Pope Pius VI and seized his property in Rome. The Pope was imprisoned where he later died. This is the fatal head wound.
In February of 1929, Italian dictator Benito Mussolini established the Vatican and returned the Pope to his authority. Called the Lateran Treaty, 110 acres of land were gifted to the church so as to establish the authority and real estate of the Holy See. The fatal head wound was healed.
Revelation also states that the anti-Christ would "wear out the saints" by means of persecution and murder.
It is an historic fact that the church has been the greatest persecutor of Jews and saints of Christ in history. Over the length of history it has been estimated that the Catholic church has been directly or indirectly responsible for over fifty million deaths due to religious persecution. No Muslim leader or Communist nation can claim such an effusion of blood.
Let the facts speak for themselves. If you seek the truth about anti-Christ, look no further than your history books, your newspaper and your Bible.
There is a great deal more authentication provided in the Bible. I recommend a thorough study of scripture and an interpretation based on the Bible, not popular myth and conjecture.
You won't find truth on television. Even the commercials lie. Not for nothing is it called show bu$iness.
that's me, hollering from the choir loft.....
« Tue Feb 04, 2020 - 07:57:48 »
While there have been antichrists ever since Christ was here, the ultimate AC hasn't yet been made manifest. He is also known in Scripture as the "man of sin, son of perdition" (besides Judas), & "that wicked" & "the beast from the sea".
THE ANTI-CHRIST HAS BEEN REVEALED.
All that is needed to identify the man is knowledge of history and correct Biblical interpretation.
The anti-Christ of Revelation 13 is the Pope, the spiritual leader of the Roman Catholic church.
The name of the anti-Christ is also a number.
Traditional language of the Roman Catholic church is Latin. Latin letters and also be transliterated as numbers. Therefore the letters of the name of Pope John Paul II can be tallied as six hundred sixty-six.
(see chart of letters at: http://remnantofgod.org/666.htm)
Revelation 13 states that a beast will arise out of the sea.
The context of the Bible ALWAYS represents a beast as a system, organization or nation. Some scholars refer to it as a 'force' or 'trend'.
The beast is NOT a man. It is a religious system. See Revelation for a description of this parasitic religion - also described as the whore of Babylon.
Revelation 17 defines the sea as people or a general population of people. Therefore the correct interpretation of Revelation 13 describes a religious system arising out of a population of people.
The small horn that exalts itself and which arises out of the beast is a religious leader that arises out of the religious system.
The small horn, which arises out of the beastly organization, exalts itself against God.
The man, or leader, is said to commit blaspheme. Biblical definition of blaspheme is to claim to be God. Jesus was hated and persecuted by Jewish priests of His day because He (Jesus) claimed to be God. The priests accused Jesus of blaspheme. Therefore, when the Bible says the anti-Christ would commit blaspheme it tells us this religious leader would claim to be God on earth. The quote that follows is an established statement of the Catholic church.
"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth." - Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, “Cities Petrus Bertanous”
Revelation 13 states that the anti-Christ will suffer a fatal head wound which will later be healed.
In the year 1798 the military forces of Napoleon Bonaparte arrested Pope Pius VI and seized his property in Rome. The Pope was imprisoned where he later died. This is the fatal head wound.
In February of 1929, Italian dictator Benito Mussolini established the Vatican and returned the Pope to his authority. Called the Lateran Treaty, 110 acres of land were gifted to the church so as to establish the authority and real estate of the Holy See. The fatal head wound was healed.
Revelation also states that the anti-Christ would "wear out the saints" by means of persecution and murder.
It is an historic fact that the church has been the greatest persecutor of Jews and saints of Christ in history. Over the length of history it has been estimated that the Catholic church has been directly or indirectly responsible for over fifty million deaths due to religious persecution. No Muslim leader or Communist nation can claim such an effusion of blood.
Let the facts speak for themselves. If you seek the truth about anti-Christ, look no further than your history books, your newspaper and your Bible.
There is a great deal more authentication provided in the Bible. I recommend a thorough study of scripture and an interpretation based on the Bible, not popular myth and conjecture.
You won't find truth on television. Even the commercials lie. Not for nothing is it called show bu$iness.
that's me, hollering from the choir loft.....
« Last Edit: Tue Feb 04, 2020 - 08:15:44 by Choir Loft »
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