Author Topic: What is the time of Jacob’s trouble.  (Read 1253 times)

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Offline Hobie

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What is the time of Jacob’s trouble.
« on: Sat Jan 16, 2021 - 08:24:54 »
The "time of Jacob's trouble" comes from Jeremiah 30:7...

Jeremiah 30:7 King James Version (KJV)
Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.


In previous verses, God promised He would someday restore His people to their land....

Jeremiah 30:1-6 King James Version (KJV)

1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying,
2 Thus speaketh the Lord God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book.
3 For, lo, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the Lord: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.
4 And these are the words that the Lord spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.
5 For thus saith the Lord; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.
6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?


Despite a great time of distress the Lord would save them from it...

Jeremiah 30:8-11 King James Version (KJV)

8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
9 But they shall serve the Lord their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the Lord; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.
11 For I am with thee, saith the Lord, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet I will not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.


The imagery in the Jeremiah passage most closely resembles the predictions given by Jesus in Matthew 24....

Matthew 24:3-22 King James Version (KJV)

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


We see it in other verses...

Luke 21:22-27 King James Version (KJV)

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.


1 Thessalonians 5:3 King James Version (KJV)

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.


And compare these....

Jeremiah 51:6-9 King James Version (KJV)

6 Flee out of the midst of Babylon, and deliver every man his soul: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the time of the Lord's vengeance; he will render unto her a recompence.
7 Babylon hath been a golden cup in the Lord's hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad.
8 Babylon is suddenly fallen and destroyed: howl for her; take balm for her pain, if so be she may be healed.
9 We would have healed Babylon, but she is not healed: forsake her, and let us go every one into his own country: for her judgment reacheth unto heaven, and is lifted up even to the skies.


Revelation 18:2-10 King James Version (KJV)

2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

Offline RB

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Re: What is the time of Jacob’s trouble.
« Reply #1 on: Sun Jan 31, 2021 - 04:20:38 »
Quote
Re: What is the time of Jacob’s trouble.
Hobie, I would discuss this subject with you "if" you would stay around long enough to do so. You always post and then leave, or go on to another subject, very seldom do you truly enter into a serious discussion as Amo does.
Quote
Re: What is the time of Jacob’s trouble.
It is the time when beast makes war with the saints and overcomes them, but NOT totally, for fire shall come down from heaven and destroy Mystery Babylon.
Quote
Revelation 13:1-7~"And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."
Quote
Revalation 20:7-9~"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."
Jacob IS the beloved city of ZION, the time of Jacob's trouble will take place at the end of this world during the little season when Satan's restraint is removed~this period as far as I understand and can reasonably say started shortly after the beginning of the nineteen century when Mystery Babylon was flooded with some of its most corrupt professing churches, such as Mormonism, Jehovah Witnesses, SDA, Christian Science, and, Pentecostalism in all of its forms and a host of others. You folks want to limit Mystery Babylon to Catholicism while excluding you and many others.


Offline Choir Loft

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Re: What is the time of Jacob’s trouble.
« Reply #2 on: Tue Feb 16, 2021 - 07:55:33 »
The "time of Jacob's trouble" comes from Jeremiah 30:7...

[...... edited out a lot of jibberish here....]

Jeremiah 30:7 King James Version (KJV)
Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.


As usual we are being treated here to a whole lot of post-protestant Roman Catholic rhetoric.  

About ninety per-cent of pseudo End Times doctrine is borrowed from Jesuit priest Francisco Ribera (1537-1591).  That doctrine was commissioned by the Roman Catholic church as a response to the writings of the protestant reformation.   If the reader wants to look it up, the doctrine is historically known as FUTURISM.   It assumes a fanciful End Times story that hasn't happened in real time and most likely won't happen at all.  The most significant pieces of that doctrine, all of which is false, is a description of the tribulation, rapture and Replacement Theology also known as Supersessionism.   Look it up.   You won't loose your salvation if you learn something new and true.

The section of Jeremiah quoted above comes from chapter 30.  The interpretation is totally out of context, but completely in line with RCC doctrine. 

At the time Jeremiah wrote he was living in and around the city of Jerusalem.  AT THE SAME TIME, the prophet Ezekiel was living in Babylon.  Both men wrote of the captivity of Jews taken from Judah, the southern kingdom, to Babylon.  Actually there were two captivities of Jews, the second being almost total eviction of Jews from their homeland.  Jeremiah wrote two books - one we know as the book of Jeremiah and the other as Lamentations.  The second book is a form of ancient poetry written in prose.  For those unfamiliar with poetry, that form doesn't rhyme like a child's limerick. 

Lamentations aside, (and I do recommend a study of it for the sake of appreciating that form of ancient literature), the general outline of the book of Jeremiah is in two parts.  The first part chronicles the fall of Jerusalem and captivity of Jews to Babylon.  The second part of the book of Jeremiah expresses hope that el-Shaddai (a Jewish name for God) would mercifully bring the Jews back from Babylonian captivity and bless them in the land He gave.  The Lord DID open the way for Jews to return to Jerusalem from Babylon, but the majority of them refused to go ... to return.  Only a very few made the return journey.

The portion of chapter 30 quoted above is from the second part of Jeremiah's book.  It promises restoration of Jews from Babylonian captivity.  It DOES NOT refer to RCC doctrine of the tribulation and it DOES NOT refer to making aliyah.  (Look up "making aliyah".   The exercise will be good for you.)

We must be cautious when we vomit slogans and religious notions without a full and complete understanding of the origins of the ideas we promote.  Independent study of God's word and history offers a clear idea of ancient times and the words used by those who lived them.  Most Christians study middle-school level Bible materials (fighting to stay awake the whole time).  That's if they study at all, which most don't. Most Christians prefer to memorize a few slogans and buzz words and content themselves that they know something they are completely ignorant about.   The number of cars in a church parking lot on Bible study day are typically a fraction of those parked during worship services.  Christians simply don't want to learn anything new.   They constantly regurgitate children's stories and that's it....except for the fact they continually argue about particular points of their Biblical illiteracy.  They argue because they don't know the facts and prefer to juggle false interpretations instead. 

Don't believe me?  How many people do you know got saved because of End Times doctrines?  Did they repent of their SINS and seek God because they wanted a ride on the rapture, or did they surrender to Christ because of His life and death and resurrection from the cross?   What is important here and what is nonsensical?  This is the meaning of rightly dividing the Word of God.  Dividing has nothing to do with swallowing RCC doctrine hook line and sinker.

Study the Bible.  In most cases it interprets itself.

Read Jeremiah again...the whole book.   You will see as I did there are two obvious sections and that they FOCUS upon the Jewish issues with Babylon at that time.   

God never abandoned His people Israel. 
He didn't then and He hasn't today. 
RCC would have us believe otherwise (and ask for donation$ along the way).

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

« Last Edit: Tue Feb 16, 2021 - 08:14:17 by Choir Loft »

Offline Hobie

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Re: What is the time of Jacob’s trouble.
« Reply #3 on: Wed Feb 17, 2021 - 06:34:02 »
Hobie, I would discuss this subject with you "if" you would stay around long enough to do so. You always post and then leave, or go on to another subject, very seldom do you truly enter into a serious discussion as Amo does. It is the time when beast makes war with the saints and overcomes them, but NOT totally, for fire shall come down from heaven and destroy Mystery Babylon. Jacob IS the beloved city of ZION, the time of Jacob's trouble will take place at the end of this world during the little season when Satan's restraint is removed~this period as far as I understand and can reasonably say started shortly after the beginning of the nineteen century when Mystery Babylon was flooded with some of its most corrupt professing churches, such as Mormonism, Jehovah Witnesses, SDA, Christian Science, and, Pentecostalism in all of its forms and a host of others. You folks want to limit Mystery Babylon to Catholicism while excluding you and many others.
Babylon has always been what came out of Rome which is the system of paganism all the way from Babylon if you just check your history and it has continued in the Roman Catholic system of pagan worship and day, which anyone can see if they just look.

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Re: What is the time of Jacob’s trouble.
« Reply #3 on: Wed Feb 17, 2021 - 06:34:02 »
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Offline Hobie

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Re: What is the time of Jacob’s trouble.
« Reply #4 on: Wed Feb 17, 2021 - 06:39:49 »
As usual we are being treated here to a whole lot of post-protestant Roman Catholic rhetoric.  

About ninety per-cent of pseudo End Times doctrine is borrowed from Jesuit priest Francisco Ribera (1537-1591).  That doctrine was commissioned by the Roman Catholic church as a response to the writings of the protestant reformation.   If the reader wants to look it up, the doctrine is historically known as FUTURISM.   It assumes a fanciful End Times story that hasn't happened in real time and most likely won't happen at all.  The most significant pieces of that doctrine, all of which is false, is a description of the tribulation, rapture and Replacement Theology also known as Supersessionism.   Look it up.   You won't loose your salvation if you learn something new and true.

The section of Jeremiah quoted above comes from chapter 30.  The interpretation is totally out of context, but completely in line with RCC doctrine. 

At the time Jeremiah wrote he was living in and around the city of Jerusalem.  AT THE SAME TIME, the prophet Ezekiel was living in Babylon.  Both men wrote of the captivity of Jews taken from Judah, the southern kingdom, to Babylon.  Actually there were two captivities of Jews, the second being almost total eviction of Jews from their homeland.  Jeremiah wrote two books - one we know as the book of Jeremiah and the other as Lamentations.  The second book is a form of ancient poetry written in prose.  For those unfamiliar with poetry, that form doesn't rhyme like a child's limerick. 

Lamentations aside, (and I do recommend a study of it for the sake of appreciating that form of ancient literature), the general outline of the book of Jeremiah is in two parts.  The first part chronicles the fall of Jerusalem and captivity of Jews to Babylon.  The second part of the book of Jeremiah expresses hope that el-Shaddai (a Jewish name for God) would mercifully bring the Jews back from Babylonian captivity and bless them in the land He gave.  The Lord DID open the way for Jews to return to Jerusalem from Babylon, but the majority of them refused to go ... to return.  Only a very few made the return journey.

The portion of chapter 30 quoted above is from the second part of Jeremiah's book.  It promises restoration of Jews from Babylonian captivity.  It DOES NOT refer to RCC doctrine of the tribulation and it DOES NOT refer to making aliyah.  (Look up "making aliyah".   The exercise will be good for you.)

We must be cautious when we vomit slogans and religious notions without a full and complete understanding of the origins of the ideas we promote.  Independent study of God's word and history offers a clear idea of ancient times and the words used by those who lived them.  Most Christians study middle-school level Bible materials (fighting to stay awake the whole time).  That's if they study at all, which most don't. Most Christians prefer to memorize a few slogans and buzz words and content themselves that they know something they are completely ignorant about.   The number of cars in a church parking lot on Bible study day are typically a fraction of those parked during worship services.  Christians simply don't want to learn anything new.   They constantly regurgitate children's stories and that's it....except for the fact they continually argue about particular points of their Biblical illiteracy.  They argue because they don't know the facts and prefer to juggle false interpretations instead. 

Don't believe me?  How many people do you know got saved because of End Times doctrines?  Did they repent of their SINS and seek God because they wanted a ride on the rapture, or did they surrender to Christ because of His life and death and resurrection from the cross?   What is important here and what is nonsensical?  This is the meaning of rightly dividing the Word of God.  Dividing has nothing to do with swallowing RCC doctrine hook line and sinker.

Study the Bible.  In most cases it interprets itself.

Read Jeremiah again...the whole book.   You will see as I did there are two obvious sections and that they FOCUS upon the Jewish issues with Babylon at that time.   

God never abandoned His people Israel. 
He didn't then and He hasn't today. 
RCC would have us believe otherwise (and ask for donation$ along the way).

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
Christ Himself shows us that many of these text in the Old Testament were prophecies that were to be fulfilled or He Himself fulfilled, so need to look a little deeper.

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Re: What is the time of Jacob’s trouble.
« Reply #4 on: Wed Feb 17, 2021 - 06:39:49 »



Offline Hobie

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Re: What is the time of Jacob’s trouble.
« Reply #5 on: Wed Feb 17, 2021 - 06:40:55 »
We are seeing some of the signs as the cold in Texas has shut down Nuclear, Coal, Liquid Gas Power Plants and even Wind power turbines generating electricity with century breaking temperatures...

https://www.wsj.com/articles/texas-storm-power-outage-11613425923

https://www.wsj.com/articles/texas-power-outages-after-deep-freeze-prompt-governor-to-urge-probe-11613513090

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/energy/article/Power-tight-across-Texas-winter-storm-blackouts-15953686.php

With people out of power and water for days and seeing icicles inside their homes...

https://www.unilad.co.uk/viral/frozen-ceiling-fan-photo-shows-brutal-reality-of-american-cold-snap/

Offline Choir Loft

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Re: What is the time of Jacob’s trouble.
« Reply #6 on: Mon Jun 14, 2021 - 07:17:48 »
Babylon has always been what came out of Rome which is the system of paganism all the way from Babylon if you just check your history and it has continued in the Roman Catholic system of pagan worship and day, which anyone can see if they just look.

He (anti-Christ leader) will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. - Daniel 7:25

Many refuse to understand Biblical references to the Roman Catholic Church as being the anti-Christ system and leader.  The book of Daniel gives specific references and predictions and the RCC itself proves it with its own statements of doctrine.

Below is a Vatican statement of blaspheme - a claim to be god.

"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in heaven and earth."
Barclay Cap. XXVII, p. 218. Cities Petrus Bertrandus, Pius V.

Below is a Vatican statement of changing set times and laws - violating the 4th commandment and changing the day of worship of God from Saturday to Sunday.

We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.” -Rev. Peter Geiermann C.SS.R., The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50

There are numerous other references, but the greatest of them all is the RCC doctrine of FUTURISM, which has successfully changed the focus of End Times Biblical interpretation from the RCC as the anti-Christ system to some implausible and illogical form in a distant future.   The post protestant church marches in lock step with the Vatican in nearly all things including End Times interpretations of the Bible.

Beware the devices of the enemy, for they do not glorify the Lord of Hosts nor validate His Word.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...


Offline Choir Loft

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Re: What is the time of Jacob’s trouble.
« Reply #7 on: Wed Jul 07, 2021 - 08:05:18 »
Christ Himself shows us that many of these text in the Old Testament were prophecies that were to be fulfilled or He Himself fulfilled, so need to look a little deeper.

Most Biblical prophecies, indeed many passages in the Bible, serve multiple meanings.  Sometimes more than two or three meanings can be attributed to a single prophecy.  One needs to look deeper into the events of history as Hobie suggests.

For instance, Jewish scholars who are deeply embedded in Talmud, refuse to acknowledge the prophecies of the Tanakh with regard to the arrival of ha-mashiach (the anointed One).  Isaiah 53 is deliberately ignored in word and sermon.  There are many suggestions that not only would ha-mashiach appear unto Israel once, but twice.

Christian interpretations are heavily influenced by the error of Roman Catholic FUTURISM and Vatican dogma.  This includes the madness of rejection of the LAW and its place in the process of redemption.  It includes false interpretations of the End Times and it definitely includes a great deal of anti-Semitic attitudes both directly and indirectly.

Jews link the time of Jacob's trouble to the temple. 

The temple is the center of the interpretation both scripturally and historically.   The 9th of Av, or Tisha B'Av is a Jewish observance of the First Temple's destruction by the Chaldeans.  Is it coincidence that the 9th of Av is the same calendar day the Roman army under Emperor Vespasian destroyed Jerusalem and the Second Temple?   

All Jews, including Jesus, believed a time of Jewish trouble also came upon the land when the Greeks insinuated their false religion into the temple.  The act inspired the Maccabean revolt.  Greek desecration of the first temple is accepted as fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy of the "abomination of desolation"  All Jews in Jesus' time knew it and accepted it as did the Savior Himself.  But Jesus stretched out the prophecy to indicate a similar event in the future of that generation.  Not soon after Christ spoke those words the Roman army entered Jerusalem and destroyed the 2nd Temple.  Daniel's prophecy refers to events affecting the temple.  Will there be a third time?  No man knows.  We shall have to wait and see.

There can be no doubt in the mind of any reasonable person that the Nazi holocaust was a time of terrible Jewish suffering.  Never before or since has such a crime against humanity visited the earth, yet disciples of Christian End Times tribulation heresy fondly hope for a 2nd holocaust to frighten Jews into joining a church to be saved from decapitation.  This is pure and absolute demonic rhetoric, yet Christians will not repent of it.  Oh yes. they hold it dearly as though it was a policy of the kingdom of heaven.  It most certainly is not.

The time of the gentiles perhaps even the gentile church has ended.

The "time of the gentiles" spoken of by Jesus and quoted in Luke 21:24 came to an end in June 1967 when the IDF liberated the city of Jerusalem.   Today the demise of the gentile powers and principalities has come.  The church began to wither on the vine in 1967.  The last generational revival in America occurred in the late 60's and early 70's.  There has not been one since. The slow death of the church continues to this day.  In its place a time of trouble is descending upon the gentile world.  All things come to the Jew FIRST and then to the Gentiles.  Something wicked is coming our way, perhaps many such things.  Make no mistake.

The Lord of Hosts defends the State of Israel today.  He DOES NOT protect those nations, including America, which have turned their back upon Him and denied the need for His protection.  Look to see trouble in the gentile world increase.

Watch and learn, pilgrim.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

If God does not judge America He will have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah.
« Last Edit: Wed Jul 07, 2021 - 08:33:21 by Choir Loft »

Offline Rob

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Re: What is the time of Jacob’s trouble.
« Reply #8 on: Wed Oct 20, 2021 - 18:22:58 »
The Bible tells us in Daniel and Matthew that the time of Jacobs trouble happened when many but not all of the saints that slept in the dust of the ground came out of their graves and walked the streets of Jerusalem at the resurrection of Jesus.

It’s not debatable, it’s written clearly in scripture.
« Last Edit: Wed Oct 20, 2021 - 18:30:08 by Rob »

Offline RB

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Re: What is the time of Jacob’s trouble.
« Reply #9 on: Thu Oct 21, 2021 - 04:49:06 »
The Bible tells us in Daniel and Matthew that the time of Jacobs trouble happened when many but not all of the saints that slept in the dust of the ground came out of their graves and walked the streets of Jerusalem at the resurrection of Jesus. It’s not debatable, it’s written clearly in scripture.
You not even close.

The content of the context will always drive our interpretation~we see in the scriptures that the seed of Jacob are the vert elect that makes up the true house of Israel.
Quote from: The angel Gabriel
Luke 1:31-33~"And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."
We KNOW that the house of Jacob here represents the whole family of the very elect, BOTH Jews and Gentiles~this kingdom whereas Jesus Christ shall reign over shall have NO END world without end!

The TIME of Jacob's trouble is during the little season of Revelation 20 when the beast shall make war with the saints and overcome (Revelation 13) them to a point where they shall flee Judea (from the professing churches in this world) which shall take place at the end of this world and last until Jesus comes again to deliver and gather together his elect from the four corners of this earth. This is the great tribulation Christ said will come, that except those days be shortened NO FLESH would be saved~that is with TRUE KNOWLEDGE and UNDERSTANDING of the truth. We are totally convinced those days started around 1800 and so far have continued until these very days, but no man knows how much longer these days will last, surely Christ's coming is at hand if we understand properly the signs given. But the hour and day, even months and year are hidden from us. When Christ does come, the whole world will be taken by surprise, even the very elect.
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Luke 21:34-36~"And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."
« Last Edit: Thu Oct 21, 2021 - 04:58:28 by RB »

Offline Rella

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Re: What is the time of Jacob’s trouble.
« Reply #10 on: Thu Oct 21, 2021 - 06:35:33 »
The Bible tells us in Daniel and Matthew that the time of Jacobs trouble happened when many but not all of the saints that slept in the dust of the ground came out of their graves and walked the streets of Jerusalem at the resurrection of Jesus.

It’s not debatable, it’s written clearly in scripture.



Your reply comment is a wee bit off. Not much, but some.

If it is written clearly in scripture you need to post the specific scriptures that say this has happened in Daniel.

For it had not happened yet in Daniel , though you write it as if it did.

Daniel clearly states...12:2 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

Not until right after the crucifixion and Jesus' resurection.

51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[e] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Now, in truth... Mathew itself is somewhat cart before the horse so to speak.

While still on the cross...We are told in. Mathew 27: 50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

Then:

51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split

52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.

53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[e] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Please note in Mathew 27: 51 it is saying At that moment

Please note in Mathew 27 :52 it is saying those  bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.

Please note in Mathew 27 : 53 It is saying , They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection


My question is if "they" did not come out of their tombs until after Jesus was resurrected.... after 3 nights and 3 days... did they just stay alive in their tombs until it was time????????

Also, if they came alive at the moment of Jesus' death, when the curtian of the temple was torn.... was this before there was an actual burial tomb was selected for Jesus?  57 As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. 58 Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus’ body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him. 59 Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, 60 and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away.

Joseph asked for Jesus' body to put him in his own tomb....

Just some puzzle pieces that don't fit well based on the way they were written ???




« Last Edit: Thu Oct 21, 2021 - 07:12:13 by Rella »

Offline Rob

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Re: What is the time of Jacob’s trouble.
« Reply #11 on: Thu Oct 21, 2021 - 08:19:12 »


Your reply comment is a wee bit off. Not much, but some.

If it is written clearly in scripture you need to post the specific scriptures that say this has happened in Daniel.

For it had not happened yet in Daniel , though you write it as if it did.

Daniel clearly states...12:2 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

Not until right after the crucifixion and Jesus' resurection.

51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[e] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Now, in truth... Mathew itself is somewhat cart before the horse so to speak.

While still on the cross...We are told in. Mathew 27: 50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

Then:

51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split

52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.

53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[e] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Please note in Mathew 27: 51 it is saying At that moment

Please note in Mathew 27 :52 it is saying those  bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.

Please note in Mathew 27 : 53 It is saying , They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection


My question is if "they" did not come out of their tombs until after Jesus was resurrected.... after 3 nights and 3 days... did they just stay alive in their tombs until it was time????????

Also, if they came alive at the moment of Jesus' death, when the curtian of the temple was torn.... was this before there was an actual burial tomb was selected for Jesus?  57 As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. 58 Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus’ body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him. 59 Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, 60 and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away.

Joseph asked for Jesus' body to put him in his own tomb....

Just some puzzle pieces that don't fit well based on the way they were written ???

The account in Matthew is easier to see in the King James Bible.

Mat 27:50  Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

Mat 27:51  And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

Mat 27:52  And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Mat 27:53  And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

The earthquake happened when Jesus died. The earthquake caused the graves to be opened. They dead bodies lay there for 3 days. On the 3rd day, MANY, but not ALL of those that slept, arose and came out of their graves and appeared to many in Jerusalem.

This is what Daniel prophesied in Daniel 12. Daniel is pointing to a time in the future when MANY, but not ALL, that slept in the dust of the earth would come back to life.

Dan 12:1  And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Dan 12:2  And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Of those that came back to life, some of them were raised to everlasting life and some were raised to everlasting contemp. I believe those that rose from the dead were a select group that were to be a witness against Israel. We are actually told that the men of Nineveh and the queen of the south would RISE UP in the judgement of the Jews of that generation.

Luk 11:31 (KJV) The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

That’s why I say it’s not debatable. Every detail in Daniel 12 was fulfilled at the death and resurrection of Jesus.

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Re: What is the time of Jacob’s trouble.
« Reply #12 on: Thu Oct 21, 2021 - 08:59:32 »
The account in Matthew is easier to see in the King James Bible.

Mat 27:50  Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

Mat 27:51  And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

Mat 27:52  And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Mat 27:53  And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

The earthquake happened when Jesus died. The earthquake caused the graves to be opened. They dead bodies lay there for 3 days. On the 3rd day, MANY, but not ALL of those that slept, arose and came out of their graves and appeared to many in Jerusalem.

This is what Daniel prophesied in Daniel 12. Daniel is pointing to a time in the future when MANY, but not ALL, that slept in the dust of the earth would come back to life.

Dan 12:1  And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Dan 12:2  And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Of those that came back to life, some of them were raised to everlasting life and some were raised to everlasting contemp. I believe those that rose from the dead were a select group that were to be a witness against Israel. We are actually told that the men of Nineveh and the queen of the south would RISE UP in the judgement of the Jews of that generation.

Luk 11:31 (KJV) The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

That’s why I say it’s not debatable. Every detail in Daniel 12 was fulfilled at the death and resurrection of Jesus.


Before moving on past this specific this group of men .... King Jimmy ( which is NOT infallible.. but for another thread ) says exactly what I said above. and no more clear IMO.

Mat 27:50  Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. ( AS IN HE DIED)

Mat 27:51  And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; ( Which came just as   Jesus died.)

Mat 27:52  And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,  (As it is recorded)

Mat 27:53  And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

But they did not come out of their graves until Jesus was resurrected, as you said... but still gives pause to many who wonder why the dead would just lay their waiting, and why the graves were not opened after the resurrection.  Perhaps they were but it reads, in all translations as if the grave opening happened with the tearing of the veil and earthquake.



You had said about Daniel....

"The Bible tells us in Daniel and Matthew that the time of Jacobs trouble happened when many but not all of the saints that slept in the dust of the ground came out of their graves and walked the streets of Jerusalem at the resurrection of Jesus."

The wording you use is as if Daniel had stated the saints ( already ) came out of their graves.  YES this is prophesy. It had not happened in Daniels time... It would not in his lifetime. Your comment reads as if it had  and needs to be separate from Mathew.

It should read that The bible tells us in Daniel of a time when many but not all of the saints that slept in the dust of the ground came out of their graves and walked the streets of Jerusalem at the resurrection of Jesus. And is confirmed in Mathew......

It is more clear to the reader....

I am not saying you are wrong just a wee bit off.... for the sake of clarity.

Offline Rob

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Re: What is the time of Jacob’s trouble.
« Reply #13 on: Thu Oct 21, 2021 - 09:39:49 »
You not even close.

The content of the context will always drive our interpretation~we see in the scriptures that the seed of Jacob are the vert elect that makes up the true house of Israel.We KNOW that the house of Jacob here represents the whole family of the very elect, BOTH Jews and Gentiles~this kingdom whereas Jesus Christ shall reign over shall have NO END world without end!

The TIME of Jacob's trouble is during the little season of Revelation 20 when the beast shall make war with the saints and overcome (Revelation 13) them to a point where they shall flee Judea (from the professing churches in this world) which shall take place at the end of this world and last until Jesus comes again to deliver and gather together his elect from the four corners of this earth. This is the great tribulation Christ said will come, that except those days be shortened NO FLESH would be saved~that is with TRUE KNOWLEDGE and UNDERSTANDING of the truth. We are totally convinced those days started around 1800 and so far have continued until these very days, but no man knows how much longer these days will last, surely Christ's coming is at hand if we understand properly the signs given. But the hour and day, even months and year are hidden from us. When Christ does come, the whole world will be taken by surprise, even the very elect.
You’re saying the time of Jacobs trouble is a future time but let’s see what the Bible says.

Jer 30:7  Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

Jer 30:8  For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:

Jer 30:9  But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

There’s a lot of information in that passage to reveal the timing of Jacob’s trouble. So to understand the timing we need to answer the following questions.

What is the yoke that gets broken off Jacob’s neck?

Who are the ones that have Jacob in bondage?

Who are the strangers that will never be served by the guy Jacob was yoked to?

When did the strangers begin to serve David their king?

Just in case you don’t know the answers to those questions, I’ll answer them.

The yoke was the yoke between Esau (the firstborn) and Jacob (the second born).

The first born (unsaved Jews) were the flesh descendants of Israel. They were the ones that bound the second born (saved Jews) through their ridiculous laws, customs, traditions and persecutions.

The saved Gentiles during that time, like the woman at the well, we’re under the same bondage as the saved Jews. They were also freed from the bondage of the unsaved Jews and that’s when they began to serve David their king (Jesus).

Isn't it obvious that all of that happened when Jesus came?


« Last Edit: Thu Oct 21, 2021 - 10:10:20 by Rob »

Offline Rob

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Re: What is the time of Jacob’s trouble.
« Reply #14 on: Thu Oct 21, 2021 - 09:43:29 »
Before moving on past this specific this group of men .... King Jimmy ( which is NOT infallible.. but for another thread ) says exactly what I said above. and no more clear IMO.

Mat 27:50  Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. ( AS IN HE DIED)

Mat 27:51  And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; ( Which came just as   Jesus died.)

Mat 27:52  And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,  (As it is recorded)

Mat 27:53  And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

But they did not come out of their graves until Jesus was resurrected, as you said... but still gives pause to many who wonder why the dead would just lay their waiting, and why the graves were not opened after the resurrection.  Perhaps they were but it reads, in all translations as if the grave opening happened with the tearing of the veil and earthquake.



You had said about Daniel....

"The Bible tells us in Daniel and Matthew that the time of Jacobs trouble happened when many but not all of the saints that slept in the dust of the ground came out of their graves and walked the streets of Jerusalem at the resurrection of Jesus."

The wording you use is as if Daniel had stated the saints ( already ) came out of their graves.  YES this is prophesy. It had not happened in Daniels time... It would not in his lifetime. Your comment reads as if it had  and needs to be separate from Mathew.

It should read that The bible tells us in Daniel of a time when many but not all of the saints that slept in the dust of the ground came out of their graves and walked the streets of Jerusalem at the resurrection of Jesus. And is confirmed in Mathew......

It is more clear to the reader....

I am not saying you are wrong just a wee bit off.... for the sake of clarity.

Thanks Rella :)

Offline RB

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Re: What is the time of Jacob’s trouble.
« Reply #15 on: Thu Oct 21, 2021 - 15:27:36 »
You’re saying the time of Jacobs trouble is a future time but let’s see what the Bible says.
It was to happen sometimes in the future from Jeremiah's day, and before the end of the world.

Now, the question is..... is it still in the future, or, totally in the past, OR, in the process of being fulfilled? I believe it is in the process of being fulfilled.

Since no man knows the day or hour when the Lord will yet come, the actual timeline of Jacob's trouble in which he shall be delivered is somewhat hidden from us, so, at best we can only labor to put the signs given to us to know the biblical seasons in which we are now living. You quoted:
Quote
Jeremiah 30:7-9~  Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them."
You then said:
Quote from: Rob on: Today at 09:39:49
here’s a lot of information in that passage to reveal the timing of Jacob’s trouble. So to understand the timing we need to answer the following questions.

What is the yoke that gets broken off Jacob’s neck?

Who are the ones that have Jacob in bondage?

Who are the strangers that will never be served by the guy Jacob was yoked to?

When did the strangers begin to serve David their king?

Just in case you don’t know the answers to those questions, I’ll answer them.
So, you proceeded to give your own bias answers to your own quesitons~NO WHERE do we read your answer to your own questions in the scriptures~if so, please provide them.
Quote
Isn't it obvious that all of that happened when Jesus came?
WHERE do you read such twisted interpretation of Jacob's troubles.

Above I  said:
Quote from: RB
We KNOW that the house of Jacob here represents the whole family of the very elect, BOTH Jews and Gentiles~this kingdom whereas Jesus Christ shall reign over shall have NO END world without end!
Gave
Quote
Luke 1:31-33~"And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."
Using Gabriel's words telling us WHO is the House of Jacob~The WHOLE family of the very elect, both Jews and Gentiles.

I do agree with you on this point: on reference to Jerimiah 30:7-9 you said:
Quote from: Rob
There’s a lot of information in that passage to reveal the timing of Jacob’s trouble.
So, let us look at the contents of Jeremiah 30:7-9.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Jeremiah 30:7~"Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
Jesus indirectly (not verbatim) quoted from Jeremiah and said:
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Matthew 24:21-22~"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Briefly~our Lord Jesus was doing nothing more than using Jeremiah's words and foretelling of a TIME yet coming at the END OF THIS WORLD ~the latter part of Matthew 24 and 25 proves WHEN this will take place. Jacob's trouble did not take place at Christ's first coming as you claim, but is yet in the future and will take place just before this world comes to an end. Matthew 24; Mark 13; and Luke 21; along with 2nd Thessalonians chapter two, and the book of Revelation mainly chapter 13; and Revelation 20:7-9 addresses this period of time in our world's history.
Quote
For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
This prophecy will be fully fulfilled at this point:
Quote
Revelation 20:8,9~"And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
The Holy Ghost could have just as easily said: "the camp of Jacob" and would be the same as saying the camp of the saints! Need proof just ask.
« Last Edit: Fri Oct 22, 2021 - 04:19:58 by RB »

Offline Rob

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Re: What is the time of Jacob’s trouble.
« Reply #16 on: Fri Oct 22, 2021 - 08:07:59 »
It was to happen sometimes in the future from Jeremiah's day, and before the end of the world.

Now, the question is..... is it still in the future, or, totally in the past, OR, in the process of being fulfilled? I believe it is in the process of being fulfilled.

Since no man knows the day or hour when the Lord will yet come, the actual timeline of Jacob's trouble in which he shall be delivered is somewhat hidden from us, so, at best we can only labor to put the signs given to us to know the biblical seasons in which we are now living. You quoted:You then said:So, you proceeded to give your own bias answers to your own quesitons~NO WHERE do we read your answer to your own questions in the scriptures~if so, please provide them. WHERE do you read such twisted interpretation of Jacob's troubles.

Above I  said: GaveUsing Gabriel's words telling us WHO is the House of Jacob~The WHOLE family of the very elect, both Jews and Gentiles.

I do agree with you on this point: on reference to Jerimiah 30:7-9 you said: So, let us look at the contents of Jeremiah 30:7-9.Jesus indirectly (not verbatim) quoted from Jeremiah and said: Briefly~our Lord Jesus was doing nothing more than using Jeremiah's words and foretelling of a TIME yet coming at the END OF THIS WORLD ~the latter part of Matthew 24 and 25 proves WHEN this will take place. Jacob's trouble did not take place at Christ's first coming as you claim, but is yet in the future and will take place just before this world comes to an end. Matthew 24; Mark 13; and Luke 21; along with 2nd Thessalonians chapter two, and the book of Revelation mainly chapter 13; and Revelation 20:7-9 addresses this period of time in our world's history. This prophecy will be fully fulfilled at this point: The Holy Ghost could have just as easily said: "the camp of Jacob" and would be the same as saying the camp of the saints! Need proof just ask.
It's pretty much a theme throughout the bible to use a person to represent a group of people. I would think it obvious to everyone that the first born is the birth of the flesh and the second born is the spiritual birth.

The spiritual descendants were under the bondage of the flesh descendants UNTIL Christ came. Jesus took stewardship of the kingdom from them and gave it the rightful stewards... the spiritual descendants.

^ That is the yoke between Jacob and Esau being broken. Hopefully that clears up my view.

In your view, who is the house of Jacob yoked to that will eventually be broken at the end of the world? Also what are the bonds that bind the house of Jacob?