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Offline 19

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when is the rapture?
« on: Fri Nov 16, 2018 - 05:54:01 »
Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!" NKJV


Rev 19:6 And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, "Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns! 7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready." NKJV

1 Cor 15:52
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. NKJV


The seventh trump sounded which is the last trump. By 1 cor 15: 52 this is when the rapture occurs. By Rev 11:15 this is when God takes possession of earth and reigns. By rev 19:6  it is time for the marriage of the Lamb. I believe that Jesus has only one bride  (as per God's original design) meaning only one wedding which everyone in Christ attends.

If God protects His people from the tribulation at chapter 4 it would only be that church going to heaven and not a resurrection of all saints to that time which happens just prior to the wedding. Paul's comments to the Thessalonians seems to indicate that all the remaining saints will get their new bodies at the same time. If this is correct then this would mean that they would be called to heaven as souls under the altar.


Rev 11:19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail. NKJV

Heaven opened to receive all the resurrected and raptured saints. At Rev 11: 15 the last trump sounded.

Rev 15: 1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete. 2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mingled with fire, and those who have the victory over the beast, over his image and over his mark and over the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, having harps of God. 3 They sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying:

"Great and marvelous are Your works,
Lord God Almighty!
Just and true are Your ways,
O King of the saints!
4 Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name?
For You alone are holy.
For all nations shall come and worship before You,
For Your judgments have been manifested."

5 After these things I looked, and behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened. 6 And out of the temple came the seven angels having the seven plagues, clothed in pure bright linen, and having their chests girded with golden bands. 7 Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever. 8 The temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power, and no one was able to enter the temple till the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed. NKJV



The door to the Father was closed. No more witnessing and the way to the Father through Jesus is over.

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when is the rapture?
« on: Fri Nov 16, 2018 - 05:54:01 »

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: when is the rapture?
« Reply #1 on: Sat Nov 17, 2018 - 10:36:33 »
The rapture of the church takes place just before the two witnesses of Revelation are set in place by the LORD just outside Jerusalem, and before the tribulation begins. John in Revelation sees "and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were a trumpet talking with me;"

and what did the voice from heaven say to John, "Come up hither," Sound somewhat like what's written in, 1 Thessalonians 4:16. The only way through the door that leads to the throne or the Father is through Jesus Christ who is that door, that bridge.

Jesus said, "I am the way, --- no man cometh unto the Father; but by me." Therefore only believers will ever enter through that door.

Jesus is speaking, John 10:2, "He that enters in by the door is the shepherd (Jesus) of the sheep." Verse 7, Jesus said, "I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved---."

A door is an entrance, thus the word door is used metonymically, meaning to put one work for another. Thus Jesus is the medium of access into heaven and before the throne of the Father.

Laspino

Offline 19

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Re: when is the rapture?
« Reply #2 on: Sun Nov 18, 2018 - 07:08:49 »
The rapture of the church takes place just before the two witnesses of Revelation are set in place by the LORD just outside Jerusalem, and before the tribulation begins. John in Revelation sees "and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were a trumpet talking with me;"

and what did the voice from heaven say to John, "Come up hither," Sound somewhat like what's written in, 1 Thessalonians 4:16. The only way through the door that leads to the throne or the Father is through Jesus Christ who is that door, that bridge.

Jesus said, "I am the way, --- no man cometh unto the Father; but by me." Therefore only believers will ever enter through that door.

Jesus is speaking, John 10:2, "He that enters in by the door is the shepherd (Jesus) of the sheep." Verse 7, Jesus said, "I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved---."

A door is an entrance, thus the word door is used metonymically, meaning to put one work for another. Thus Jesus is the medium of access into heaven and before the throne of the Father.

Laspino

Hello Mr LaSpino3

1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. NKJV

This sounds like a resurrection  in 1 Thessalonians.

Rev 11:12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them. 13 In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past. Behold, the third woe is coming quickly.
15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!" NKJV


Sounds like a resurrection with a voice calling them to come up to heaven and also the last trumpet blows.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. NKJV

So what your saying is that there is three resurrections in revelation.You say there are 2 resurrections of the saved prior to the general resurrection of the unsaved. In verse 5 above it gives but 2 resurrections. One for believers and one for the unbelievers.

I believe that there is only 1 resurrection of all believers during the time period covered by the book of Revelation. When the 2 witnesses are resurrected all other believers are also resurrected. Then they all attend the wedding as one bride.

I have no idea what I said to indicate that other than believers would be in heaven but yes, Jesus is the only way to the Father. If I implied other than that I misspoke.

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: when is the rapture?
« Reply #3 on: Sun Nov 18, 2018 - 16:19:16 »
19, call me Phil:
I know you understand the difference between a resurrection of the dead and the catching away or “rapture of the saints” into heaven; two very different events. Everyone that is resurrected is not “caught away to be with the Lord in heaven, some remain on the earth. Those in Matthew 27, and Revelation 20:4.
 
The book of Revelation is only part of the puzzle and in my estimation the last part of the puzzle. When the discussion of resurrection and/or the catching away of the saints is up for discussion, I feel every piece of the puzzle, from every book that contains information needs to be closely examined and put into its correct time-frame.

Because Paul is the only apostle to speak of resurrection and “catching away or rapture,” of the body of Christ, most of the information is found in his epistles.

As far as the 4 gospels are concerned, 90% written in them concern the Jews, and the land of Israel. Of course, we both know nothing was known in the four gospels concerning the “age of grace, or age of the Gentiles” no mention whatsoever. Paul was a chosen vessel, and by the grace of God was commanded to go and teach the gospel of grace to the Gentiles.

Now 20 to 27 years after the Lord’s resurrection and his catching away, Paul wrote to the Thessalonians in 52 A.D. and to the Corinthians in 56 or 57 A.D. The four gospels concern for the most part Christ’s early ministry from his birth to his death, his burial and resurrection. His ministry was specifically to the “lost sheep of the house of Israel.” His sole purpose was to show that He alone was sent by the Father to prove by signs and wonders that He was the promised Messiah of the Jews, their Christ.   

Now Paul would begin his ministry to the Gentiles some 7 years after Christ’s ascension.

We know Enoch, Elisha, and Elijah were all raised into heaven alive. Enoch before the flood and the other two after the flood. Also, Matthew 27:52-53 reveals the resurrection of many Old Testament saints, who were the 1st fruit unto Christ, and Christ the first-fruit unto the Father. These Old Testament saints were all Jews because they had been buried and raised from the dead just outside the gates of Jerusalem and soon after Christ had been raised. These resurrected were in no way part of the Christian church because the Holy Spirit hadn’t been sent, Paul was not yet chosen and Christian church not started.
   
Now both 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4 speak of the resurrection of those who believe by faith and faith alone. But, 1 Thessalonians 4 speaks of the resurrection and the catching away into heaven the bride of Christ. In Corinthians 15:12-13 Paul writes concerning the resurrection of the saints. In verse 23 Paul speaks of an order or rank concerning the different resurrections.
 “Every man in his own order, “order is a military term meaning a rank or file.

These resurrections can be compared to a barley harvest. The first of the first fruit is gathered, it called the "wave offering unto the Lord." Later the main harvest, thirdly the gleaning of the corners of the field.

In verse 51, Paul uses the phrase “I show you a mystery.” The word mystery means something that has been hid in the mind of God, but only now to be revealed. We’re speaking of the year 52 to 56 A.D., some 20 years after the cross, until then, no-one was aware of any “catching away” into heaven of the Christian church until Paul revealed it. 

Now I need to ask you a few questions before we continue. Do you feel the last 7 years of the 490 years found in Daniel 9:24. is finished, or is yet to be finished?

Question 2: Do you believe the 7 years of tribulation is from God? If so, will the following events set the tribulation in motion. The revealing of the 4 horsemen, the 144,000 being sealed and the two witnesses established outside the city of Jerusalem?
Phil

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Re: when is the rapture?
« Reply #3 on: Sun Nov 18, 2018 - 16:19:16 »
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Offline 19

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Re: when is the rapture?
« Reply #4 on: Mon Nov 19, 2018 - 11:54:27 »
Hello again Phil

You can call me Frank

First question. I believe that the book of revelation describes the last 7 years of Daniel's last week and it is yet to be started.

Second question. Maybe I'm missing something in your question but John states clearly that Jesus is the one who gave him this revelation. Jesus always does what pleases the Father.

The setting things in motion are : Rev 6: 12-17 is symbolic of what happens. It could mean that God is moving heaven and earth to set the conditions required for the tribulation. It could also mean that He is moving what could be shaken to make ready that which cannot be shaken. The 144,000 and the 2 witnesses are given their orders and empowered.

Now to the four horsemen.

Rev 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a scroll written inside and on the back, sealed with seven seals. NKJV

Being written front and back is God's way of saying some of this was not hidden. Let's not get hung up on how little or much can be shown on the open side. Daniel wrote some about the last week. Some of the rest is scattered throughout the prophets. Jesus told some in the gospels. He wrote about the church persecution, wars , famines and pestilences.  Seals 1 through 5 were told in Matthew and that they would get worse toward the end.

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Re: when is the rapture?
« Reply #4 on: Mon Nov 19, 2018 - 11:54:27 »



Offline LaSpino3

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Re: when is the rapture?
« Reply #5 on: Mon Nov 19, 2018 - 14:18:46 »
Hello Frank:
First question. You wrote, "I believe that the book of revelation describes the last 7 years of Daniel's last week and it is yet to be started."  I Agree!

You wrote, "John states clearly that Jesus is the one who gave him this revelation. Jesus always does what pleases the Father." Agree again!

You wrote, "The setting things in motion are : Rev 6: 12-17 is symbolic of what happens. It could mean that God is moving heaven and earth to set the conditions required for the tribulation. It could also mean that He is moving what could be shaken to make ready that which cannot be shaken. The 144,000 and the 2 witnesses are given their orders and empowered." How about that, I agree again; Hmmmm, sort of makes me feel there is hope!

It appears we are in agreement with most everything except "When is the church raptured?" We both agree that the church is caught up to be with the Lord. So the obvious question is When? Another question that can be tied in with the "when" question is, how important is it to know if it's a pre-mid or post tribulation rapture? As for me, can't say how important it is, but I do feel it's important that we hear the Holy Spirit loud and clear. So we can all ask ourselves, "Are we listening with our whole body, soul and spirit? or have we come to the place where it's written, these last days will be, "as they were in the days of Noah?" 

If you have the time I'd like to discuss the "when." I'll keep an open mind, draw no conclusions until the discussion is over, and hopefully I can pick up some additional information.

If I may, I'd like to ask this last question so I can get a grip on what your thinking is on the subject. We both agree that the last 7 years is still future; so my question is tied to this understanding.

Daniel 9:24, The word of the LORD came to Daniel and said, "Seventy weeks (490 Years) are determined upon thy (Daniel's) people---." Note the Lord said "thy (your) people," obviously He's angry with them. Now if we compare that to other scriptures in the O.T. when the LORD was not angry with the Jews, he would call them "My people."

So here's the question, the first 483 Years of punishment and captivity were determined upon the nation and people of Israel who had turned from God to idol worship. Therefore it seems reasonable that the last 7 years of the tribulation would be directly pointed at the unbelieving nation of Israel, to finish the last 7 Years of the transgression. Again, it seems reasonable the Christian church would be far from God's wrath and judgements, the safest place to me would be in heaven before His tribulation begins.

Phil

Offline 19

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Re: when is the rapture?
« Reply #6 on: Tue Nov 20, 2018 - 07:06:14 »
Sounds like we agree on some things. Check your pm

Offline 19

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Re: when is the rapture?
« Reply #7 on: Wed Nov 28, 2018 - 08:19:34 »
Matt 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.  30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.  31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. NKJV

1 Thess 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. NKJV

1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed —  52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. NKJV

Every one of the above describes the day of the Lord coming for His church with a trumpet blast from heaven and resurrection to happen at the time of the rapture. In addition in 1 Corinthians 15:50 states that it will be the last trumpet. Now since there has not been a day of the Lord prior to, during or after the writing of Paul's epistles what He describes must be the day of the Lord we are  waiting for. I say this because he states in both epistles “ we”, meaning himself and all other Christians alive at His coming, will be in the described rapture. Therefore, we can expect to be in a rapture that will be announced by the seventh trumpet call. The seventh trumpet happens at the mid point of the tribulation.

The day of the wrath of God is said to have come at the opening of the sixth seal.  After the opening of the sixth seal there is four trumpets causing a  lot of  harm to the earth. Trumpets 5 and 6 cause harm to men.

Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire. NKJV

God wants the entire earth to know that these 2 witnesses are speaking on His behalf. Therefore, during the time of their witnessing the trumpet plagues will only happen when these 2 call on them, otherwise the people would think that it was only coincidence that the plague happened when they called for it. These witnesses are calling for people to repent and turn to God. Although God is wrathful He is still offering salvation to those who repent.

Once the witnesses die the time for repentance is over and it is time for God's wrath. When God calls the witnesses to come up here, the seventh trumpet sounds and the entire church past and present is called to heaven with them. At the seventh trumpet the seven vials of God's wrath are prepared to be poured out.

Rev 12:1 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. NKJV

Rev 15:1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete. NKJV

I believe that the signs written above are the sign of the Son of Man that Jesus mentioned in Matthew 24. The sign after Rev 12:1 describe Jesus' mission as savior. The second sign His mission of judgment.

Offline 19

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Re: when is the rapture?
« Reply #8 on: Sat Dec 01, 2018 - 07:34:42 »
Matt 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.  30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.  31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. NKJV

1 Thess 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. NKJV

1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed —  52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. NKJV

Every one of the above describes the day of the Lord coming for His church with a trumpet blast from heaven and resurrection to happen at the time of the rapture. In addition in 1 Corinthians 15:50 states that it will be the last trumpet. Now since there has not been a day of the Lord prior to, during or after the writing of Paul's epistles what He describes must be the day of the Lord we are  waiting for. I say this because he states in both epistles “ we”, meaning himself and all other Christians alive at His coming, will be in the described rapture. Therefore, we can expect to be in a rapture that will be announced by the seventh trumpet call. The seventh trumpet happens at the mid point of the tribulation.

The day of the wrath of God is said to have come at the opening of the sixth seal.  After the opening of the sixth seal there is four trumpets causing a  lot of  harm to the earth. Trumpets 5 and 6 cause harm to men.

Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire. NKJV

God wants the entire earth to know that these 2 witnesses are speaking on His behalf. Therefore, during the time of their witnessing the trumpet plagues will only happen when these 2 call on them, otherwise the people would think that it was only coincidence that the plague happened when they called for it. These witnesses are calling for people to repent and turn to God. Although God is wrathful He is still offering salvation to those who repent.

Once the witnesses die the time for repentance is over and it is time for God's wrath. When God calls the witnesses to come up here, the seventh trumpet sounds and the entire church past and present is called to heaven with them. At the seventh trumpet the seven vials of God's wrath are prepared to be poured out.

Rev 12:1 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. NKJV

Rev 15:1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete. NKJV

I believe that the signs written above are the sign of the Son of Man that Jesus mentioned in Matthew 24. The sign after Rev 12:1 describe Jesus' mission as savior. The second sign His mission of judgment.

Just in case I haven't been clear.

The 2 witnesses die and lay in the street for 3 and a half days. The the breath of life enters them and they stand on their feet. Revelation 11: 11

A voice from heaven calls “Come up here.” Revelation 11: 12

The seventh ( last) trumpet sounds. Revelation 11: 15

The sign of the Son of Man appears.  Revelation 12: 1 and Revelation 15: 1

Jesus sends His angels to gather the church. The dead in Christ rise and those who are alive are changed. We all meet Jesus in the air.

The rapture happens at the mid point of the tribulation.


 

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Re: when is the rapture?
« Reply #9 on: Mon Dec 03, 2018 - 19:11:48 »
bye
« Last Edit: Sun Dec 09, 2018 - 13:59:38 by Charles Martel »

Offline RB

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Re: when is the rapture?
« Reply #10 on: Tue Dec 04, 2018 - 05:26:24 »
"Come up here" is mentioned in Rev. 4:1 and Rev 11:11.  Neither of those verses imply a rapture of the church.
The rapture of believers is seen in Revelation 11:11, what is NOT taught is is that there is yet seven years before the Lord comes again and then followed by a thousand years of rule in this world from Jerusalem.

The world comes to an end in Revelation 11, and several other chapters in Revelation! Revelation is not written in chronological order, but John gives us a bird's eye view from Pentecost to the end of the world, with each chapter adding details that another chapter did not give.

Offline 4WD

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Re: when is the rapture?
« Reply #11 on: Tue Dec 04, 2018 - 06:03:20 »
Oh right on, RB.  So much confusion concerning the end times comes directly because so many read Revelation as one continuous chronological presentation.  And that is simply not the case.
« Last Edit: Tue Dec 04, 2018 - 06:05:37 by 4WD »

Offline Willie T

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Re: when is the rapture?
« Reply #12 on: Tue Dec 04, 2018 - 06:44:03 »
Oh right on, RB.  So much confusion concerning the end times comes directly because so many read Revelation as one continuous chronological presentation.  And that is simply not the case.
I think most of the confusion is due to people insisting on following the pattern they were taught of reading Revelation like a Fortune Teller's Crystal Ball, speaking of things thousands of years off into the distant future, instead of seeing it as mainly a revelation to John about the times he was living in.

Ya know, it was never written as the last book of the Bible, it ended up stuck back there because people refused to even allow it in the Bible for almost 400 years.
« Last Edit: Tue Dec 04, 2018 - 06:48:58 by Willie T »

Charles Martel

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Re: when is the rapture?
« Reply #13 on: Tue Dec 04, 2018 - 09:28:30 »
bye
« Last Edit: Sun Dec 09, 2018 - 13:58:50 by Charles Martel »

Charles Martel

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Re: when is the rapture?
« Reply #14 on: Tue Dec 04, 2018 - 09:52:04 »
bye
« Last Edit: Sun Dec 09, 2018 - 13:57:34 by Charles Martel »

Offline RB

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Re: when is the rapture?
« Reply #15 on: Tue Dec 04, 2018 - 10:03:19 »
Greetings Charles, I will respond later to your post, we will not be far apart in our understanding by me just glancing over your post~time will not allow me to go into details now, but I will either later today or early in the morning the Lord willing.
Quote from: Charles Martel on: Today at 09:52:04
NOTHING about a rapture is mentioned in Revelation 11:11.
Brother, it IS, the TWO witnesses ARE the church, made up of Jews AND Gentiles, which EQUALS TWO...the TWO olive trees~and the TWO candlesticks per Romans eleven, Revelation 2:20, and Zechariah 4!  Later~RB

Charles Martel

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Re: when is the rapture?
« Reply #16 on: Tue Dec 04, 2018 - 15:09:24 »
bye
« Last Edit: Sun Dec 09, 2018 - 13:57:57 by Charles Martel »

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: when is the rapture?
« Reply #17 on: Sun Dec 09, 2018 - 19:26:59 »
RB, so the church is going to have the power to hurt people that hurt it, to devour their enemies, to kill if their enemies attempt to kill them, to shut heaven so it doesn't rain, turn water to blood and smite the earth with plagues. Hmmm, interesting! Doesn't sound like anything Christ expects from us such as to Love our enemies, feed the poor, etc.

Oh, by the way, is all the church going to be killed in or near Jerusalem, and all our dead bodies going to lie in the street for 3 days, then come to life and be raised into heaven?

Two witnesses also means two maryters. In N.T. to be a witness is to testify through and through, as in to bear full and complete witness. Also to admonish solemnly, to charge earnestly, to urge upon, Luke 16:28, "That he may testify unto them." Absolute, Acts 2:40. 1 Thessalonians 4:6, "Testified." Strengthened by the adjunct, 1 Timothy 5:21, "I charge thee before God." 2 Timothy 2:14, "charging them." 1 Timothy 4:1. Septuagint For Hebrew,  "Charge," Exodus 19:21. Psalms 81:8, "I will testify."
   
To testify fully, as in to declare fully, to teach earnestly, to enforce, transitive verb, Acts 8:25, 18:5, 20:21-24, 23:11, 28:23. Absolute, spoken of a sacred writer, Hebrews 2:6. Septuagint for Hebrew, "To testify," Deuteronomy 32:46. Exodus 18:20, "Teach them." Ezekiel 16:2, 20:4, "Cause them to know."

Sorry, it's going to be two men appointed by God to finish confirming His new covenant to the Jews who remain after the rapture of the church.
Laspino


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Re: when is the rapture?
« Reply #18 on: Mon Dec 17, 2018 - 06:49:37 »
I often feel, with all discussions about Bible prophecy, we leave out the most important piece to unlocking Bible prophecy. What is that truth? It is JESUS. In Revelation 19 verse 10 says," For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of Prophecy." Therefore, if we want to find the secrets of prophecy, then we must look to Jesus for the answer. What does Jesus say? In Matthew 24 verse 29-30 Jesus says," Immediately AFTER the great tribulation, THEN you will see the sign of the son of man..." If we connect this to the question of whether or not the rapture happens before or after, then Jesus is pretty clear that it happens AFTER the great tribulation. This means ALL Christians will go through the great tribulation, at least according to Jesus.

Whether or not people think that is un-loving for God to allow us to go through the great tribulation, God, speaking through His son, is pretty clear. Maybe it can be a question you can ask Him when you stand before His judgment seat, and give an account for everything we've done (Matt 12:36).

In peace

Offline lea

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Re: when is the rapture?
« Reply #19 on: Tue Dec 18, 2018 - 14:37:42 »
I often feel, with all discussions about Bible prophecy, we leave out the most important piece to unlocking Bible prophecy. What is that truth? It is JESUS. In Revelation 19 verse 10 says," For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of Prophecy." Therefore, if we want to find the secrets of prophecy, then we must look to Jesus for the answer. What does Jesus say? In Matthew 24 verse 29-30 Jesus says," Immediately AFTER the great tribulation, THEN you will see the sign of the son of man..." If we connect this to the question of whether or not the rapture happens before or after, then Jesus is pretty clear that it happens AFTER the great tribulation. This means ALL Christians will go through the great tribulation, at least according to Jesus.

Whether or not people think that is un-loving for God to allow us to go through the great tribulation, God, speaking through His son, is pretty clear. Maybe it can be a question you can ask Him when you stand before His judgment seat, and give an account for everything we've done (Matt 12:36).

In peace
Oh Lordy, There's no more TRIBULATION as in the Bible.  We have just regular problems to pray for now. The tribulation was against the Jews by the Romans. Most Christians fled Jerusalem at that time.  Jesus predicted it in Matthew 24. This is in the past.
God forgave us and forgot our sins of the past now through His Son's sacrifice.  ::smile::

Offline EDM

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Re: when is the rapture?
« Reply #20 on: Sat Jan 12, 2019 - 16:50:48 »
Rapture is Post Trib:

Like many of you, I was always taught we will suddenly get raptured before the Great Tribulation.  This message appealed to my comfort-oriented nature so I never studied it, and also due to laziness I admit.  However, a few years ago, I realized this teaching was false, and Satan was using it to lull me into apathy for God's work during the Tribulation - meaning, why should I care about the Tribulation if I'm not going to be here?  Instead, the Church will go through the Tribulation and it will be a time of Testing for believers and Judgement for unbelievers. 

Cory Ten Boom:  "There are some among us teaching there will be no tribulation, that the Christians will be able to escape all this.  These are the false teachers that Jesus was warning us to expect in the latter days."         


It is God's plan to use us to our fullest extent during this very important period, so we need to know about it and prepare for it.


Not preparing for the Tribulation may result in God not being able to use us much, and hence, His rebuke and a smaller reward in heaven.   Not good.  "Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent." - Rev. 3:19.


Although there are multiple verses about the rapture, there are only a few verses specifying the TIMING of the rapture.  The simplest way to understand the timing of the rapture (no Theology degrees required), is by looking at just 2 passages:


Rev 20:4-6:  "...I saw the souls of those who were beheaded...they had not worshipped the Beast or its image and had not received its Mark on their foreheads or hands...they came to life and reigned with Christ...This is the FIRST Resurrection."


This FIRST Resurrection (first large-scale general resurrection ever) includes those Christians killed by the AntiChrist during the Tribulation for refusing the Mark of the Beast.


Wait, did it say the FIRST Resurrection is after the Tribulation?  Shouldn't it be called the second resurrection?  The Pre-Trib view says there is a previous Resurrection at the same time as the Rapture before the Tribulation using this verse:

1 Thess. 4:16-17:  "For the Lord himself will come down from heaven...and the dead in Christ will rise first  (a large-scale Resurrection).   After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds (Rapture) to meet the Lord in the air."



If the FIRST Resurrection (not second) includes those killed by the AntiChrist during the Tribulation (Rev. 20 above), this FIRST Resurrection is Post-Trib.  Thus, the Rapture which occurs at the same time as the Resurrection in 1 Thess. 4 above, is also Post-Trib because there can only be one FIRST resurrection.  They must be one and the same Resurrection in order to keep both passages consistent with each other. 



We need to get ready ASAP:

1)  Get saved, draw close to the Lord, and anticipate some exciting times of testing shortly ahead including persecution and a worldwide revival/harvest!  God tests believers - nothing new here.

2)  Take note of the signs God is presenting to us.  As the signs point more and more toward an imminent Tribulation, our apathy will give way to spending more time on our knees, intimacy with the Lord, increased purity, and repentance. 

3)  Accept that our comfortable 'American way of life' is not God's long-term plan for us.  He will prosper us in other ways including gifts and power from above!


Offline Ohan

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Re: when is the rapture?
« Reply #21 on: Sun Feb 17, 2019 - 19:59:41 »
Image result for When was the talk of the rapture started?
Pre-tribulation rapture theology originated in the eighteenth century, with the Puritan preachers Increase and Cotton Mather, and was popularized extensively in the 1830s by John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren, and further in the United States by the wide circulation of the Scofield Reference Bible ```

rapture is kind of an New world thing ~ started in North America didn't it ```

Offline RB

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Re: when is the rapture?
« Reply #22 on: Mon Feb 18, 2019 - 04:42:26 »
started in North America didn't it
Most likely City of Westminster, London, United Kingdom, where  John Nelson Darby was from. The Scofield Reference Bible gave that false doctrine its wings to take it to the four corners of the earth with speed.

America is indeed the source of some powerful false sects four of which started in the mid-1800s to the beginning of 1900s and very close to each other btw......  Mormonism; Jehovah Witnesses;  SDA; and Pentecostalism and its different branches to where many of them are at now~the biggest spiritual thieves on earth, which they do it through entertainment/music, etc.

Offline Ohan

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Re: when is the rapture?
« Reply #23 on: Mon Feb 18, 2019 - 13:08:01 »
America contains millions of Christians ~ in my view part of Christendom ~ and ~ under high attack by the enemy/enemies of Christ our Lord ```

notreligus

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Re: when is the rapture?
« Reply #24 on: Mon Feb 18, 2019 - 13:09:22 »
Joseph Mede promoted the doctrine of Premillennialism long before Darby was on the scene.   This paved the way for the Premillennial rapture doctrine.   But what really brought about the rapture doctrine was Zionism, and Zionism is still strong today, if not stronger than ever.

The church (Gentile church during this present dispensation of grace) is not mentioned after Revelation Chapter Three, so the claim is that God will have raptured the church from this Earth before the times of tribulation meant for the end-time Jews begin.   In other words, after Chapter Three God is dealing with the Jews while the Church is in Heaven receiving her heavenly blessings.   Jesus will return after the full wrath of God is poured out and He will then establish the New Covenant with Israel as His Messianic Kingdom begins on the Earth.   This is the Zionist Dispensational view.   

notreligus

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Re: when is the rapture?
« Reply #25 on: Mon Feb 18, 2019 - 13:37:34 »
Most likely City of Westminster, London, United Kingdom, where  John Nelson Darby was from. The Scofield Reference Bible gave that false doctrine its wings to take it to the four corners of the earth with speed.

America is indeed the source of some powerful false sects four of which started in the mid-1800s to the beginning of 1900s and very close to each other btw......  Mormonism; Jehovah Witnesses;  SDA; and Pentecostalism and its different branches to where many of them are at now~the biggest spiritual thieves on earth, which they do it through entertainment/music, etc.

This was the Restoration Movement brought here by Scots like John Glas' son-in-law, Robert Sandeman (his followers called Sandemanians) and Walter Scott, former Presbyterians.  (Scott became a Baptist.)  In England there were three major churches, the Anglican, Catholic and Presbyterian.  Theologians were the same then as they are now with all of them having their pet doctrines, and these came to America where there was no religious hierarchy to impede their promotion of personal doctrine.   I say that they were like kids in a candy shop.  Look at the group which is the backbone of this forum - the Churches of Christ. This group was begun by two Presbyterians, a Baptist, and a Unitarian.   Campbellites and Stoneites.   Alexander Campbell was post-millennial and thought his Restoration doctrine (i.e. the restoration of the ancient gospel with water baptism performed for the remission of sins) would win-over most of the world and in time Christ would return to rule over the Earth which this restored church with the ancient gospel had prepared for him.   The Civil War came along and caused his 20 plus years of references to the Millennium in the Millennial Harbinger to be dismissed.  These groups had a church (assembly of believers) emphasis and did not have a Zionist (Israel) emphasis.   Estimates as to how many different Christian groups are in a America runs in the hundreds to some estimates of 1500 to 2000 (as I have read).   Differences in doctrinal emphasis account for the many divisions.   There's no shortage of views about the rapture or end-times in general.

Offline Choir Loft

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Re: when is the rapture?
« Reply #26 on: Tue Feb 26, 2019 - 15:57:46 »
...... rapture nonsense deleted......

I hate these idiotic discussions about the rapture.  Every fool that believes in the nonsense has a different prediction and a different spin on it.  Every fool thinks he's got an inside story to tell.  Every fool refuses to acknowledge that he's been bamboozled to believe a lie.   Every one of them.   

"What a fool believes he sees,
no wise man can reason away.
"
- WHAT A FOOL BELIEVES
Doobie Brothers

The Bible clearly says Christ will come a second time, but it does NOT say when.  There's reasons for that which are too heavy for fools to understand.  It's in the Bible, though.  Rapture believers have Him coming back two or three times depending upon the particular scenario they follow.  They quote a half dozen verses to justify their stupidity and salute every idiot who pretends to be able to make a prediction.  Every single time they're wrong, yet they refuse to acknowledge they're a party to adult fantasy.  None of these self-glorifying prophets come close to the truth.  None of them.

"I pray not that thou shouldest take them from the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil one." - Jesus as quoted by John 17:15 

Which part of NOT do these mentally challenged people NOT understand?   Answer:  none of it.  They're too stupid to try.

The rapture is a doctrine of demons.

It is a lie of cowards, for cowards, about cowards and accepted by cowards.   Context is the rule for correct interpretation of the Bible.  Nowhere in the Bible does God promise an early excusal from trouble.  Everywhere in the Bible does God promise He will see the faithful THROUGH trouble.  Nowhere is it suggested that bigoted cowards will be granted a celestial evacuation from earth when things get dicey.

It is a lie of pea brained bigots.  According to this heinous excuse for religious teaching ONLY American protestants will be raptured off the earth.   Roman Catholics are excluded as are all Orthodox Christians, which by the way constitute the majority of Christians on this planet.  Other churches in other nations have rejected the doctrine because it is contentious, unfounded, and totally lacking in logic.  In other words, it's an American invention and only American red necks are gullible enough to believe it.

It is anti-semitic because of course no Jew will be evacuated with all the precious American protestants that believe the lie.

God has promised over and over again that He WILL see the faithful THRU a crisis, not take them out of the world early.  What faith declares and points to - the rapture denies.

Demonic tripe and filth, that's what the rapture is.

Anyone who believes the idea is from God is a fool and a liar and a thief.   Their one and only aim is to steal the confidence we all have in the saving grace of Jesus Christ right here on earth.  They are cowards and bigots one and all.

and it will certainly NOT happen no matter how many scenarios are composed by the fools who believe it......

Watch and learn pilgrim.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....
« Last Edit: Tue Feb 26, 2019 - 16:01:30 by Choir Loft »

Offline Born.Again888

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Re: when is the rapture?
« Reply #27 on: Sun Jun 09, 2019 - 14:30:36 »
Rapture first.....

Antichrist arrives and deceives the lost left behind rebellious-deceived

Antichrist proposes and makes a 7 year peace treaty

in the middle of this 7 year period called the tribulation amongst Christians a ceremony happens in Israel in the new reconstructed temple, the antichrist claims he is god there and the drama begins

From that point there are 1355 days untill the end of the world and the second coming of  Christ   ::amen!::

Offline Ohan

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Re: when is the rapture?
« Reply #28 on: Tue Jul 02, 2019 - 22:22:30 »
Rapture ~ that's kinda a new thing ~ you think there'll be such a thing ```