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Online LaSpino3

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When was Revelation written.
« on: Tue Jun 14, 2011 - 08:18:27 »
When do you think the book of Revelation was written? Was it before the destruction of the Jewish temple in 70 A.D. about the time of Nero? Or was it written about 95 A.D?

State your reason, verses and sources if you have any.

Phil LaSpino

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When was Revelation written.
« on: Tue Jun 14, 2011 - 08:18:27 »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: When was Revelation written.
« Reply #1 on: Tue Jun 14, 2011 - 09:26:46 »
The traditional date is about 90AD.  We know that John wrote the book from the isle of Patmos, where he was exiled.  Revelation says so.

The records of the early church fathers say that John lived into extreme old age, and that it was at the end of his life that he was in exile in Patmos.

Putting 2 and 2 together, it seems unlikely to me that it was written before the Jewish revolution of 70AD.  That is a position that is, for the most part, only held by full preterists.  It is necessary for their theological position that 70AD was still "future" at the time of the writing of the book, otherwise Revelation is a history, not a prophecy.

Jarrod

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Re: When was Revelation written.
« Reply #1 on: Tue Jun 14, 2011 - 09:26:46 »

Online LaSpino3

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Re: When was Revelation written.
« Reply #2 on: Tue Jun 14, 2011 - 13:43:41 »
Jarrod, I agree with you concerning Rev.

Second question: When do you believe that the book of John was written? Before, or after Revelation?

Phil LaSpino

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: When was Revelation written.
« Reply #3 on: Tue Jun 14, 2011 - 14:11:40 »
Jarrod, I agree with you concerning Rev.

Second question: When do you believe that the book of John was written? Before, or after Revelation?

Phil LaSpino
I've always assumed that he wrote it before.  I guess because Revelation is "the end."  It doesn't make sense to me to write about the end, and then go back to the beginning and write it afterwards, I guess.

But that's all speculation and opinion.  I haven't studied this at all, so I don't have any facts to give you for that question.

Jarrod

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Re: When was Revelation written.
« Reply #3 on: Tue Jun 14, 2011 - 14:11:40 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Online LaSpino3

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Re: When was Revelation written.
« Reply #4 on: Tue Jun 14, 2011 - 14:42:15 »
The consensus of opinion of most scholars is, the gospel of John was written about 97 A.D. a few years after he had written the book of Revelation.

One of the proofs that I use is, John is the only writer to reveal that Jesus Christ is the Word of God, and that the Word is God.

How did he get this information?

Rev.19:12-13, John is speaking of Jesus saying, "And He had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God." This is revealed for the first time concerning who the Word of God is.

John is given this information in Rev. and clarifies it in John 1:1, "The Word was God," and verse 14, "And the Word was made flesh."

This also gives support to the  accuracy of the K.J.V. of 1 Tim.3:16, "God was manifest in the flesh." Most other Bibles give us misinformation concerning Jesus Christ, being God manifest in the flesh in 1 Tim.3:16.

Everything is connected, and supported by other verses. These are the weapons Christian's are to use when questions arise concerning who is Jesus.

Phil LaSpino

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Re: When was Revelation written.
« Reply #4 on: Tue Jun 14, 2011 - 14:42:15 »



Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: When was Revelation written.
« Reply #5 on: Tue Jun 14, 2011 - 15:30:34 »
So, what's the significance of that?

Online LaSpino3

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Re: When was Revelation written.
« Reply #6 on: Tue Jun 14, 2011 - 15:47:13 »
  ??? and  ::shrug:: I guess I was bored today.

Phil

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: When was Revelation written.
« Reply #7 on: Tue Jun 14, 2011 - 17:09:39 »
::crackup::   All righty then!  I shall add it to my warehouse of random irrelevant facts to use later.

Online LaSpino3

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Re: When was Revelation written.
« Reply #8 on: Wed Jun 15, 2011 - 09:41:58 »
Jarrod, Actually I was attempting to expand on the original two questions, and to get into an intelligent discussion about "When was the book of Revelation written? compared to when was the gospel of John written? If you haven't looked, there is a great deal of controversy concerning this matter. But I guess none but you had anything to say.   

Phil 

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: When was Revelation written.
« Reply #9 on: Wed Jun 15, 2011 - 10:14:01 »
I'm sure we can find something to argue about if that's your desire.

Revelation was clearly written after the destruction of the temple in 70AD, and before the re-destruction of Jerusalem in 135AD.  It makes no sense for Revelation to predict the events of the 2nd Jewish revolt, if the 1st Jewish revolt hadn't even happened yet.

For instance, the identification of a false messiah who gains widespread acceptance (the so-called antichrist) is useless information when you try to match it to the rebellion of 70AD.  No figure, political or religious in that war, fits that criteria.  But Simon Bar Kokhba (Kosiba), the leader of the second revolt in 132AD, fits that criteria perfectly.

Likewise, the identification of a false prophet supporting an antichrist doesn't fit the first Jewish revolt, whose main players were political zealots and corrupt priests who fought with each other; they didn't support each other.  The other religious leaders of the day withdrew from the fight.  No religious leader of the first rebellion endorsed any political leader. 

In the second rebellion, however, we have Rabbi Akiva, the most important religious figure in Judaism at the time, proclaiming Simon to be the Christ, and endorsing the rebellion (which later cost him his life).

In Revelation, we have a scroll of blasphemies flying off from Judea to Babylon.  In history, we have the creation of the Mishnas, and Gemara (comprising the Talmud), started in the period just before the 2nd Jewish revolt, in Judea, and relocated to Babylon after the revolt.

There now.  That's all very controversial.  Have at thee! ::swordfight::

Offline fish153

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Re: When was Revelation written.
« Reply #10 on: Wed Jun 15, 2011 - 14:23:54 »
The consensus of opinion of most scholars is, the gospel of John was written about 97 A.D. a few years after he had written the book of Revelation.

One of the proofs that I use is, John is the only writer to reveal that Jesus Christ is the Word of God, and that the Word is God.

How did he get this information?

Rev.19:12-13, John is speaking of Jesus saying, "And He had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God." This is revealed for the first time concerning who the Word of God is.

John is given this information in Rev. and clarifies it in John 1:1, "The Word was God," and verse 14, "And the Word was made flesh."

This also gives support to the  accuracy of the K.J.V. of 1 Tim.3:16, "God was manifest in the flesh." Most other Bibles give us misinformation concerning Jesus Christ, being God manifest in the flesh in 1 Tim.3:16.

Everything is connected, and supported by other verses. These are the weapons Christian's are to use when questions arise concerning who is Jesus.

Phil LaSpino


Phil----

I actually hadn't thought of that before--but when do scholars think 1 John was written?  It also mentions Jesus as the "Word of Life".  Though in a way irrelevant, I find it interesting just the same.  ::smile::

Online LaSpino3

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Re: When was Revelation written.
« Reply #11 on: Wed Jun 15, 2011 - 17:52:33 »
Fish, there seems to be a great deal of questions concerning the time when the three letters by John were written.

Phil

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: When was Revelation written.
« Reply #12 on: Thu Jun 16, 2011 - 11:07:40 »
Fish, there seems to be a great deal of questions concerning the time when the three letters by John were written.

Phil
Including whether or not the last two were even written by the apostle John.

Offline panza70

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Re: When was Revelation written.
« Reply #13 on: Sat Jul 16, 2011 - 10:27:56 »
I would say around 95 A.D. This is my opinion. I think the book of John was written around 90 A.D. Also my opinion.

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Re: When was Revelation written.
« Reply #14 on: Sun Feb 25, 2018 - 22:11:07 »
Presuming that those who originally responded to this post long ago are still of the same opinion, I will offer the following observations to counter the late-date arguments.  My preference is to rely on evidence from within Revelation and scripture itself, since this should supersede all other methods of proving something.  Many of these points I have brought up before on this site from time to time, but this will put a group of them in one location for reference.

Revelation written before AD 66:

#1)  Revelation 17:18 tells us that, at the time John was writing, "that great city...RULETH (present tense) over the kings of the earth".  This phrase, "kings of the earth" is not the same thing as the "kings of the whole world", because Revelation 16:14 mentions both of these as distinct from one another.  "Kings of the earth", according to how Christ presents them in Matthew 17:25, were the HIGH PRIESTS OF THE LAND OF ISRAEL.  These "kings" / high priests were being ruled over by "that great city" (Rome-governed Jerusalem) as John was writing. 

It does not take a master's degree to figure out that there are NO HIGH PRIESTS in existence anymore being ruled over by "that great city" of Jerusalem (or any other great city for that matter), and haven't been ever since the AD 66 Zealot uprising when the Jews cast off the yoke of Roman governance in Jerusalem at the start of the Roman / Jewish war.  After that, all physical genealogical records that could have ever re-established any kind of high priest according to Mosaic law were burned up in the AD 70 demolition of the temple.  So, Revelation had to have been written at least before AD 66, when the high priests were still in subjugation to "that great city" Jerusalem, which had the high priesthood under its thumb in cooperation with the Roman authorities.


Revelation written before AD 70:

#2)  There absolutely WERE false prophets and false messiahs that abounded in the pre-AD 70 era.  Christ had predicted in Matthew 24:24 that these would arise in the generation He was speaking to.  Some of these false messiahs would be rumored to be in the "secret chambers" (Matt. 24:26).  This is a reference to "The Chamber of Secrets" in THE TEMPLE THEN STANDING, which was a repository where donations for the poor in Israel could be given and then dispensed anonymously in those days.  This temple was crushed at the close of AD 70, so there is no way possible that these false messiahs would be rumored to be in "The Chamber of Secrets" after those chambers were destroyed along with the temple in AD 70. 

Revelation 11:1-2 is a text where John is told to measure that existing temple, the altar, and those who worshipped in it.  To measure something in scripture typically means that it is preserved for a period of time - in this case for 42 months while the Gentiles trampled the city and the outer temple court underfoot (mainly the Zealots coming from "Galilee of the Gentiles").  If John had been writing Revelation in AD 95 or thereabouts, there would have been no point for him to measure a temple for a 42-month period of preservation if that temple had already been demolished 25 years previously.


Revelation written before AD 70:

#3)  When John was writing Revelation, he was not describing the Bar Kokhba revolt - he was predicting the time and events that would occur when the "POWER of the holy people" would be shattered, as Daniel 12:7 mentions.  This "power" of the holy people was not referring to Israel's military strength, its wealth, or status as a nation.  Daniel defines his own terms of what this "POWER" was. 

In Daniel 11:31, when he was prophesying about the profane actions of Antiochus polluting the temple with the "abomination that maketh desolate", Antiochus was predicted to "pollute the sanctuary of STRENGTH", and to take away the daily sacrifice.  This "sanctuary of STRENGTH" was the temple itself that Antiochus Epiphanes desecrated.  The temple was the "power of the holy people" - the nerve center, and the heart and soul of Judaism.  Once this "power" was shattered in AD 70, "all things" prophesied in Daniel were "finished" (Daniel 12:7).  This negates any importance given to the fall of Masada later on in AD 73, or to the AD 132 Bar Kokhba revolt.  Neither of those events had any significance after the "POWER" of the "sanctuary of strength" - the temple - was shattered in AD 70. 

All those fulfiled prophesies of Daniel included a resurrection (Daniel 12:1-4) and the unequaled Great Tribulation time of trouble at the "time of the end".  What the angel with hands raised to heaven swore would happen, but wanted "sealed" until the "time of the end" was unsealed in Revelation.   The next time we see a mighty angel raising his hand to heaven and swearing by God who lives for ever and ever, he declares that "there shall be no more delay", but that the "mystery of God" would be FINISHED as soon as the 7th angel sounded.  This "mystery of God" was revealed to us by Paul - that in Christ, the believing Gentiles should partake of the same promise and be fellow-heirs with the believing Jews in a shared inheritance of a resurrected body. 


Revelation written before AD 67:

#4)  Those adherents of the "doctrine of Balaam" which had infiltrated two out of the seven churches in Revelation 2 & 3 were given a promise by God that, if they did not repent of their deeds, He would cast them into Great Tribulation and kill with death those "children" who were following the leader of this cult.  This promise of judgment to come on the "doctrine of Balaam" followers was a judgment they were "ABOUT TO RECEIVE" in II Peter 2:13.  This means Revelation was written PRIOR TO II Peter (which was written just before Peter's martyrdom in AD 67 - II Peter 2:14-15). 


Revelation written before AD 60:

#5)  The Laodicean church in Revelation 3:14-16 was warned by God that  "I AM ABOUT TO SPUE YOU OUT OF MY MOUTH..." because they had developed into an overconfident, self-satisfied congregation.  We know from multiple records of historians during this period that the city of Laodicea was devastated by an earthquake in AD 60, which would indicate that this disaster was the fulfillment of God's promise to spue them out of His mouth if they did not repent.  This would therefore indicate a pre-AD 60 date for Revelation's composition.


Revelation written before AD 67:

#6)  Revelation had a total of seven churches in Asia that it addressed in John's days.  A total of five out of these seven were warned to "repent of their deeds".  Switch over to Paul's letter to Timothy in II Timothy 1:15.  It says, "This thou knowest, that ALL THEY WHICH ARE IN ASIA be turned away from me;"  This shows that by that time, the total number of churches in Asia had defected from supporting Paul, which means that all seven churches in Revelation had succumbed to pressure against the faith.  If these Asian churches were still in a wavering condition that had not quite fallen yet in Revelation, this means Revelation had to have been written BEFORE II Timothy (which was written just before Paul's martyrdom in June AD 67 - II Timothy 4:6). 

Just as Paul had announced that a massive defection from his teaching had occurred in Asia, Revelation predicted that the kingdom of the Sea Beast in ASIA would be "darkened".  Revelation 16:10 tells us that the 5th angel poured out his vial on "the SEAT of the Beast" and his kingdom was "darkened" when those in that kingdom "repented not of their deeds".  This "SEAT of the Beast" was given to it by the Dragon in Revelation 13:2, which "SEAT" of the Dragon was originally in Pergamos of Asia, where Satan dwelled (Rev. 2:13).  So, the kingdom of the Sea Beast in Asia was "darkened" when the seven churches ended up distancing themselves from Paul in order to protect themselves from persecution.  What was predicted EARLIER in Revelation 16:10 finally came true LATER in II Timothy 1:15, just before AD 67.


Revelation written before AD 60:

#7)  The faithful in the church of Smyrna in Revelation 2:10 were told not to fear any of those things that they were ABOUT TO SUFFER.  They were told that Satan was ABOUT TO CAST some of them into prison.  They would then have tribulation for "TEN DAYS".  This did not last for ten literal 24-hour days, anymore than it took a literal "one hour" for Babylon to fall in Revelation 18:10, 17.  This is probably 10 YEARS being predicted.  If Revelation was written just before the AD 60 Laodicean earthquake, then the soon-coming TEN YEARS of persecution for the faithful in Smyrna would last from AD 60 until AD 70, when those faithful Smyrna believers who had died would be given a "crown of life" in the AD 70 bodily resurrection. 


Revelation written before AD 63:

#8)  The "seven kings" from Revelation 17:10 that are presented as part of the Scarlet Beast in the wilderness I have spoken about before on this site as being the seven high priest "kings of the earth" that were from the house of Annas.  Their terms of service in the office of high priest and the years they served match perfectly with the language in Revelation 17:10-11, as follows. 

"Five are fallen" (because Annas and four of his high priest sons had died by the time John wrote Revelation) "and one is" (Matthias was one son of Annas that was still alive then) "and the other IS NOT YET COME" (into the office of high priest) "and when he cometh, he must continue a short space" (because Ananus, son of Annas, after three short months of service in AD 63 was deposed from office for the offense of instigating the murder of James the Just, Christ's half brother). 

"And the beast that WAS" (the independent kingdom of Israel that lasted for about 80 years after the Maccabean victories) "and IS NOT" (because this independent kingdom of Israel was subjugated by Pompey in 63 BC) "even he is an eighth, and is of the seven" (because the eighth high priest, Annas' grandson Mattathias, was in the genetic line of the other seven high priest "kings", and would become the high priest leader in AD 65-66, when the Scarlet Beast's independent kingdom of Israel came into existence once more) "and goeth into perdition" (because the eighth high priest "king" would be killed in AD 66, and also the Scarlet Beast itself - which was ABOUT TO arise from the abyss when John was writing as Rev. 17:8 tells us - would also go into destruction when Jerusalem fell in AD 70.)

All this tells us that Revelation was written at least sometime before Ananus, the seventh "king" / high priest took office in AD 63.


Revelation written between late AD 59 and AD 60:

#9)  In Revelation 1:9, John said that he was then a "companion in tribulation" with those brothers he was writing to.  This "tribulation" John was sharing is not to be confused with the Great Tribulation that God promised to send later (Revelation 2:22).  The tribulation John was then experiencing was the persecution that followed after the initial outbreak against Paul - the riot started by the Ephesian silversmiths in AD 59 (Acts 19:23-41), which the hostile Jews took advantage of to persecute Paul afterward (Acts 21:27 and following).  This persecution by the Jews grew into violent hatred against Paul and those who followed his teaching in the Asian churches. 

Ephesus was the capitol of Asia, and once persecution launched against Christians in this city, it spread throughout Asia.  This is why Smyrna, some 30 miles or so away from Ephesus, was ABOUT TO experience persecution for "TEN DAYS", or ten years in Revelation 2:10.  In addition, the Isle of Patmos was under the jurisdiction of Ephesus, so if the disciples had to leave Ephesus, or were banished from Ephesus, the logical place for John to be sent shortly after the silversmiths' riot in AD 59 was to the Isle of Patmos, just off the coast of Ephesus.  This is when he penned the Revelation to his brothers and companions in tribulation in the seven Asian churches.


I could also add to the list above other external evidence we have proving that John was on Patmos during Nero's reign, but I have posted that elsewhere on this site before.

I could also counter the misunderstanding of Irenaeus' one statement that is presumed to prove a late date for Revelation.  This piece of external evidence is a weak case indeed to prove anything, considering that this late-date "proof" is based on a single word that has been inserted into the translation of Irenaeus' statement at the discretion of the scribe who did the translating.  It is not based on anything that Irenaeus himself actually wrote.

Just for kicks and grins, I could also submit the external evidence found in my Cambridge King James Bible in its Bible dictionary in the back.  Under the definition for the "Revelation of John", it includes the following statements: "There is a considerable difference of opinion as to the date of its composition.  One tradition states it to have been written at the end of the reign of Domitian, about A.D. 96, while another connects it with the persecution of Nero, A.D. 64-8.  THE EARLIER DATE IS THE MORE PROBABLE....Also the interpretation of the Rev. is easier if it belongs to the period just preceding the downfall of Jerusalem, and refers to events which lay in the immediate future."
 

« Last Edit: Sun Feb 25, 2018 - 23:14:41 by 3 Resurrections »

Offline soterion

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Re: When was Revelation written.
« Reply #15 on: Sun Feb 25, 2018 - 22:29:50 »
Some call for a mid 70s date from Revelation 17:8-11, with the kings being Roman emperors, the first being Augustus and the beast being Vaspasian.

As far as I have read, any and all prospective dates have their pros and cons. Most everybody will pick the one that fits any already decided overall interpretation of Bible prophecy.

 

     
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