Author Topic: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?  (Read 7155 times)

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notreligus

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #105 on: Fri Feb 10, 2017 - 19:03:01 »
notreligus  -  The II Thess. epistle was written in approximately AD 52.  Yes, Paul told them at the time he was writing that the Day of Christ was not "at hand" (present) at the time he was writing.  But he gave them a list of time markers that the believers could observe which would indicate that the Day of Christ was near at hand in their future.  Some of these time markers Paul had already discussed with them in person earlier, and he was refreshing their memory.  The generation he wrote to would live to see these time markers transpire, but until then, they were to exercise "patient waiting for Christ" (II Thess. 3:5). 

This waiting period from the II Thess. epistle around AD 52 was not long until October of AD 66 arrived when Roman armies would first encircle Jerusalem, just as Christ had predicted in Luke 21:20.  The rebellion (apostasia) that provoked this Roman military response started around mid AD 66.  This rebellion of the Jews against the Romans was the "falling away" (apostasia) time marker that Paul had alerted the Thessalonians to look for in II Thess. 2.  The word "soon" for someone living around AD 52 is not misplaced in this context.

Speaking of the lackadaisical attitude toward a proper work ethic that Paul rebukes in II Thess. 3:11 -12, this may or may not have been related to a belief in a soon-coming arrival of Christ.  We are not told the reason for this malady among some of the Thessalonians.  It could have been a problem similar to that of the Cretans (the "slow-bellies"), without being related to an excuse to sit on a rooftop and wait for Christ's appearing.

You started out alright about what Apostle Paul was teaching, but then you fell quickly to men's doctrines of Preterism or Historicism, wrongly teaching 2 Thess.2 events being already past history.

What Paul taught in 2 Thess.2 about a false one coming to sit in the temple (in Jerusalem), is for the final generation on this earth when Jesus' 2nd coming happens on the 'day of the Lord'. On that day will come a destruction from The Almighty, and will end man's works off this earth. That of course did NOT... happen in 70 A.D.

It foolishness to teach that Jesus' 2nd coming happened back in 70 A.D., and that's basically the idea you are preaching, because the events of 2 Thess.2 are timed for the very end of this world, and not back in 70 A.D. Proof? Easy, in 2 Thess.2 Paul taught that false one coming to sit in the temple will be destroyed by the brightness of Jesus' coming. And that false one coming to sit in the temple is... about a literal temple in Jerusalem, a standing temple for the end which the orthodox Jews today have the materials ready to build.

And the Mormon Church has offered to give Israel millions of dollars (even though they believe that THEY are true Israel) to build a temple, but that does not have to be Paul's meaning.   For many years I believed that to be true, but it's not a must.   The church fulfills the "temple" requirement.  The church are the Jews who believe in Christ and the Gentiles who believe, and the two have become the one new man in Christ.    Paul taught that, as you may recall.   We know that there have been many types of antichrist throughout history.   There will be a final antichrist and this will be during the time of lawlessness that will be prevalent.   Lawlessness, in the Biblical sense, is a time when the majority of people have no concern for the things of God - the true God - our God Almighty.   It seems to me that the time in which we live pretty well fulfills this   A particular antichrist is going to come and seem to bring unity while it will be a false unity.   I don't know about you but it is obvious to me that there is a strong effort to unite the three main religions of the world (and I hate to call Christianity a religion), Islam, Judaism, and Christianity.  They are favorably compared as three religions which are all Abrahamic faiths and thus have common ties.   Jesus is being pushed aside to accomplish this and many are falling into this trap to aid this false unity.   

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #105 on: Fri Feb 10, 2017 - 19:03:01 »

Offline dpr

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #106 on: Sat Feb 11, 2017 - 00:36:38 »
notreligus  -  The II Thess. epistle was written in approximately AD 52.  Yes, Paul told them at the time he was writing that the Day of Christ was not "at hand" (present) at the time he was writing.  But he gave them a list of time markers that the believers could observe which would indicate that the Day of Christ was near at hand in their future.  Some of these time markers Paul had already discussed with them in person earlier, and he was refreshing their memory.  The generation he wrote to would live to see these time markers transpire, but until then, they were to exercise "patient waiting for Christ" (II Thess. 3:5). 

This waiting period from the II Thess. epistle around AD 52 was not long until October of AD 66 arrived when Roman armies would first encircle Jerusalem, just as Christ had predicted in Luke 21:20.  The rebellion (apostasia) that provoked this Roman military response started around mid AD 66.  This rebellion of the Jews against the Romans was the "falling away" (apostasia) time marker that Paul had alerted the Thessalonians to look for in II Thess. 2.  The word "soon" for someone living around AD 52 is not misplaced in this context.

Speaking of the lackadaisical attitude toward a proper work ethic that Paul rebukes in II Thess. 3:11 -12, this may or may not have been related to a belief in a soon-coming arrival of Christ.  We are not told the reason for this malady among some of the Thessalonians.  It could have been a problem similar to that of the Cretans (the "slow-bellies"), without being related to an excuse to sit on a rooftop and wait for Christ's appearing.

You started out alright about what Apostle Paul was teaching, but then you fell quickly to men's doctrines of Preterism or Historicism, wrongly teaching 2 Thess.2 events being already past history.

What Paul taught in 2 Thess.2 about a false one coming to sit in the temple (in Jerusalem), is for the final generation on this earth when Jesus' 2nd coming happens on the 'day of the Lord'. On that day will come a destruction from The Almighty, and will end man's works off this earth. That of course did NOT... happen in 70 A.D.

It foolishness to teach that Jesus' 2nd coming happened back in 70 A.D., and that's basically the idea you are preaching, because the events of 2 Thess.2 are timed for the very end of this world, and not back in 70 A.D. Proof? Easy, in 2 Thess.2 Paul taught that false one coming to sit in the temple will be destroyed by the brightness of Jesus' coming. And that false one coming to sit in the temple is... about a literal temple in Jerusalem, a standing temple for the end which the orthodox Jews today have the materials ready to build.

And the Mormon Church has offered to give Israel millions of dollars (even though they believe that THEY are true Israel) to build a temple, but that does not have to be Paul's meaning.   For many years I believed that to be true, but it's not a must.   The church fulfills the "temple" requirement.  The church are the Jews who believe in Christ and the Gentiles who believe, and the two have become the one new man in Christ.    Paul taught that, as you may recall.   We know that there have been many types of antichrist throughout history.   There will be a final antichrist and this will be during the time of lawlessness that will be prevalent.   Lawlessness, in the Biblical sense, is a time when the majority of people have no concern for the things of God - the true God - our God Almighty.   It seems to me that the time in which we live pretty well fulfills this   A particular antichrist is going to come and seem to bring unity while it will be a false unity.   I don't know about you but it is obvious to me that there is a strong effort to unite the three main religions of the world (and I hate to call Christianity a religion), Islam, Judaism, and Christianity.  They are favorably compared as three religions which are all Abrahamic faiths and thus have common ties.   Jesus is being pushed aside to accomplish this and many are falling into this trap to aid this false unity.

The Mormons are irrelevant; they are a cult. I never mentioned them.

The ones who will build another temple are the orthodox unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem, as they have been gathering materials for almost 2 decades now to do just that. The temple Paul referred to in 2 Thess.2:4 is a physical temple in Jerusalem. That is what "the temple of God" has always been involving Israel in Bible history.

Trying to apply the spiritual temple idea which belongs to those in Christ Jesus to that Jerusalem temple the Antichrist comes to sit in is also way out of context, and here's why:

The spiritual temple per the NT Covenant is founded upon the prophets, the Apostles, and Christ Jesus Himself as The Chief Cornerstone. The spiritual temple CANNOT BE CORRUPTED. Those who think to corrupt it simply are 'cut off' from it and Christ, for it is NOT a physical temple on earth. So I'm surprised you just regurgitated a doctrine of man (because I've heard many times before that false attempt to push Christ's spiritual temple per Ephesians 2 into the context of the temple of 2 Thess.2:4 the Antichrist sits in.)

Bottomline - if the spiritual temple in Christ Jesus could be corrupted by the Antichrist, then it would mean those in Christ have no Salvation. It would mean Christ Jesus Himself in Heaven would become corrupted. Just who... would really like for that happen? The devil of course, and his servants on earth.
 

Offline AstridK

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #107 on: Sat Mar 04, 2017 - 22:58:32 »
For many years I believed that a rapture would happen. I mostly was concerned for my mother because she has been through an inordinate amount of suffering in her life (more than most, like Nazi holocaust level suffering) and so I assumed that God would remove her before the Tribulation occurred if it occurred within her lifetime. I believed it because so many Christians do so I thought it was a given. I didn’t see myself as someone who would be taken because, somehow, in my thinking I thought that it wasn’t just about Christians being taken but that it was certain Christians who would be. I thought that the ones who would be taken were people who had suffered greatly already and had achieved a higher state spiritually-people who were more enlightened and that if they were left here, it would be both redundant and cruel. I did not see myself as someone who has achieved that status.

Recently, I started talking to some people online about the rapture and found out that now, there are all these different beliefs attached to it. Some believe in a pre-trib rapture, some a mid, some an end-trib rapture and some believe in all three. Then I started looking up information about the rapture online and discovered that the rapture came from a theologian named John Nelson Darby. In his researching of the Bible, he found certain scriptures that sound as if it is describing an event where people are taken before the Tribulation. This was in the 1830s. It has stuck since that time but I also found that the scriptures he is getting this from, he is simply misinterpreting their meanings. Because of discovering this information and because of what is happening in the world right now, I seriously doubt that a rapture will take place (I actually think it is now too late and should have occurred already if it were going to) and even though I would like to be taken, I am more upset that my mother won’t be. She has already learned all she could (at least I feel that way) learn from suffering. All I can do is have faith that God knows what he is doing and that she will be taken care of in the way he feels is most important.

I worry about people who say “It’s ok. I’m going to be raptured.” They are relying on something that most likely will not happen and in relying on being rescued from the pain and suffering, they aren’t arming themselves with strength to endure it. I think a good way to start arming yourself is to read the bible. Jesus said “Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.” I think it is important to read the bible and commit what is most useful to you to memory for times when things fall apart and you really have no bread to live on because that is what is going to happen. I also worry that these people, because they believed in something that they thought God was guaranteeing for them, when it doesn’t happen, they will blame and hate God for it when it really wasn’t something he promised in the first place.

Another thing I think they are missing is that God sees value in all human experiences, including suffering. He doesn’t enjoy human suffering but knows that it brings deep spiritual development. It expands a person’s understanding and causes empathy to grow. Even people who may be seen as most important to him, he allows to suffer. The 12 Apostles, when they went out into the world to preach about Jesus Christ, were murdered in gruesome ways-all of them except John who died in old age. And of course, his own son suffered greatly in his death.

Then there is the whole thing about Jesus coming back. People talk about the rapture and Jesus coming back to take them. When I have read about end times in the bible, I only interpreted that he comes back at the end of it to put an end to the Antichrist. I can’t think of anywhere that he comes back before that.

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #108 on: Sun Mar 05, 2017 - 00:18:42 »
When I have read about end times in the bible, I only interpreted that he comes back at the end....

You did well. That is what the Bible teaches. It is what Jesus & the Apostles taught.
That has been the dominant understanding in Christianity over the millennia.

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #108 on: Sun Mar 05, 2017 - 00:18:42 »
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Offline dpr

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #109 on: Sun Mar 05, 2017 - 03:30:09 »
For many years I believed that a rapture would happen. I mostly was concerned for my mother because she has been through an inordinate amount of suffering in her life (more than most, like Nazi holocaust level suffering) and so I assumed that God would remove her before the Tribulation occurred if it occurred within her lifetime. I believed it because so many Christians do so I thought it was a given. I didn’t see myself as someone who would be taken because, somehow, in my thinking I thought that it wasn’t just about Christians being taken but that it was certain Christians who would be. I thought that the ones who would be taken were people who had suffered greatly already and had achieved a higher state spiritually-people who were more enlightened and that if they were left here, it would be both redundant and cruel. I did not see myself as someone who has achieved that status.

Recently, I started talking to some people online about the rapture and found out that now, there are all these different beliefs attached to it. Some believe in a pre-trib rapture, some a mid, some an end-trib rapture and some believe in all three. Then I started looking up information about the rapture online and discovered that the rapture came from a theologian named John Nelson Darby. In his researching of the Bible, he found certain scriptures that sound as if it is describing an event where people are taken before the Tribulation. This was in the 1830s. It has stuck since that time but I also found that the scriptures he is getting this from, he is simply misinterpreting their meanings. Because of discovering this information and because of what is happening in the world right now, I seriously doubt that a rapture will take place (I actually think it is now too late and should have occurred already if it were going to) and even though I would like to be taken, I am more upset that my mother won’t be. She has already learned all she could (at least I feel that way) learn from suffering. All I can do is have faith that God knows what he is doing and that she will be taken care of in the way he feels is most important.

....

The word 'rapture' is not written in The Bible. The rapturist gets from the Latin translation of Greek harpazo, which means to literally seize. Greek harpazo is the word used for "caught up" in the KJV Bible.

2 Corinthians 12 and Acts 8 with Philip are the main examples we have in God's Word to go by.

Acts 8:39-40
39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.
KJV


The "caught away" phrase is Greek harpazo. As soon as Philip had baptized the Ethiopian, God caught away Philip to another location on earth. Philip did not die, nor was he changed in any way for God to do that.

The other main example of harpazo was by Paul:

2 Cor 12:2-4
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
KJV

Per Acts 14, Paul was once stoned and assumed dead, and the Apostles stood over him and Paul arose. So most likely the above description of the one caught up was about Paul himself; he was being modest.

What was 'caught up' to Paradise in Paul's example? We know Philip was merely transported on earth while in his flesh to another location. But in Paul's case, something else was "caught up".

There are several examples in the OT Books of the prophets, especially Ezekiel, and how The Spirit took hold of them and transported their spirit by vision to another locale, or heavenly scene (see Ezek.3, & 8, and 40). Paul didn't know whether he was 'in the body' or 'out of the body' when caught up to Paradise.

Per the story of Lazarus and the rich man which Jesus gave per Luke 16, the location of Biblical Paradise is in the heavenly dimension, not our earthly dimension. So what part of Paul's being was "caught up" to that location?

With many NDE's (near death experience), people have reported how during surgery they somehow found themselves out of their body and above near the ceiling looking down on their flesh body on the operating table and doctors, nurses, etc. They mentioned not feeling any pain, and their not being able to communicate with those in the room. This kind of thing scares many people, but plenty of doctors have reports of it from some of their patients.

That's not something we should be scared about, but we should understand it. Per God's Word, we are not just a flesh body. God made us with a spirit inside our flesh body that at flesh death a "silver cord" is severed, releasing our flesh back to the ground where it came from, and our spirit goes back to God Who gave it (Eccl.12:5-7). Obviously, the one Paul said was "caught up", their "silver cord" was not severed, and was thus revived.

This shows us how to interpret the "caught up" of 1 Thessalonians 4 about our gathering to Christ Jesus at His 2nd coming. Per that Jesus descends to this earth, bringing the "asleep" saints with Him, and then those of us still alive are "caught up" with them in the clouds.

Will that be like the Acts 8 example with Philip? Partially. Being seized (harpazo) and transported to another location is involved with the future 1 Thess.4 event.

And will that future event be like Paul's in 2 Cor.12? Yes, more so. In 1 Corinthians 15 Paul defined the resurrection body being a "spiritual body". And he revealed that on the "last trump" we alive shall be "changed" "at the twinkling of an eye", suggesting that our flesh shell will immediately be cast off, revealing our "spiritual body".

That is what God's Word teaches on that matter.




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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #109 on: Sun Mar 05, 2017 - 03:30:09 »



Offline Captain Shays

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #110 on: Sun Mar 19, 2017 - 17:26:48 »
I too was taught a pre-tribulation theory but have since changed. I now believe very strongly that, we will be raptured some time during the great tribulation. In fact, I think the rapture is a rescue out of the tribulation. At that time, we will immediately be transformed into our new bodies and soon thereafter, maybe immediately, or at some later time (but not too long) we will be part of the Lords army that wages war against the antichrist and his armies.
Think about this. In the pre-trib theory, the Christians will be taken up into the sky and transformed leaving behind all the sinners. Out of those sinners, who never darkened the door of a church, never read their bible, never professed to being Christians, never lead anyone else to the Lord, will all of a sudden see the Christians gone and remember what some Christian told them years before about the rapture and see that the Christians were right all along and then, start to believe and get saved. But there will be no other Christians around to help them understand the scriptures. All the real churches will be empty. What's left of real preachers on TV will all be gone by then. In fact, knowing that the Holy Spirit lives within each believer, wouldn't it be safe to say that if the Christians are gone so is The Spirit?
So, I'm to believe that there will be multitudes of people who come to the faith "AFTER" all the Christians have been raptured? How?

My pastor in refuting these questions told me that God doesn't take His wrath out on His children and the tribulation is God taking His wrath out. I contended that perhaps, the tribulation isn't God taking His wrath out on God's children, but Satan through the antichrist taking his wrath out on God's children and that is why Jesus told us we would be persecuted and why Revelations talks about the multitudes of martyred Saints from the tribulation. After the rapture which rescues the Christians (God cut that time short for the sake of the elect), THEN God takes His wrath out on the antichrist and his followers who are not Gods children.
I guess we Americans think we're so important that we won't have to suffer real persecution like the Romans, and the Chinese, and the poor Christians of Sudan, and Bosnia, and Egypt, and Palestine,, and Syria. We're special. We get to escape the tribulation because we're better. Not.
And how can the tribulation come before the antichrist is revealed when Jesus told us WHEN YOU see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place as spoken through Daniel the prophet. So going over to Daniel the prophet to see what he said about it, IN Chapter 12 Daniel spells it out pretty good for us. "Now at that time Michael the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book will be rescued. 2. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

I would also refer you to Daniel 10:29-35.

Offline jeager

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #111 on: Mon Mar 20, 2017 - 15:25:53 »
Rapture doctrine did not exist before John Darby invented it in 1830 AD. Before it "popped into John Darby's head" no one had ever heard of a secret rapture doctrine.

http://www.bible.ca/rapture-origin-john-nelson-darby-1830ad.htm

^^^ Lots more on the Web and in libraries if one seeks the truth.

Rapture = INVENTED by a mere human in relative modern history.


notreligus

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #112 on: Tue Mar 21, 2017 - 15:41:25 »
I have not personally read the doctrines or teachings of persons mentioned in this article, but there are many folk mentioned here who preceded John Darby that made claims about end-times that fit into a framework of the belief of a rapture of the church.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Believer%27s%20Corner/Doctrines/rapture_history.htm

The future of the nation of Israel has been and remains such a mystery to so many, and it seems to me that this idea that the church must be out of the way to make room for Israel's inclusion is what drives the various beliefs about why the church will be raptured before the return of Christ.   We in the church generally don't see Christ in the Old Testament - so many claim He didn't even exist before He was born in human form - and the Old Testament refers to Israel as God Almighty's wife.    So when we don't "rightly divide," to borrow from the Berean Dispensationals, we come up with wrong conclusions and present them to others as fact that really can't be supported.   If we would see that the Bible is about redemption with Christ being the central figure many of these doctrines would lose support.   In the meantime there are many who are profiting on the sales of books and movies.   

Offline jeager

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #113 on: Wed Mar 22, 2017 - 00:35:12 »
Sigh.
It's no wonder that there at least 33,000 denominations of Christians all
reading the same book. ::frustrated::

Offline dpr

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #114 on: Tue Apr 07, 2020 - 01:19:10 »
Oh, and FYI, my post was NOT... about a Pre-tribulational Rapture theory. I believe in a post-tribulational coming of Christ Jesus to gather His Church, as written.

But the idea of those still alive on earth being changed and then "caught up" to Jesus coming in the clouds, that is not supposition or made up by man. It is a testimony directly from the Scriptures of God's Word, and the Greek word that defines it per the New Testament manuscripts is the word harpazo. The Latin version of that Greek word translated to English simply is the word 'rapture'.

So there will... be a literal 'rapture' of Christ's Church that's still alive on earth on the day of His future 2nd coming. It's just not going to happen PRIOR to the tribulation like those on man's Pre-trib Rapture theory believe, and that's the difference.

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #115 on: Tue Apr 07, 2020 - 07:21:26 »


But the idea of those still alive on earth being changed and then "caught up" to Jesus coming in the clouds,

So there will... be a literal 'rapture' of Christ's Church that's still alive on earth on the day of His future 2nd coming. It's just not going to happen PRIOR to the tribulation like those on man's Pre-trib Rapture theory believe, and that's the difference.

Darn it.

I was hoping something would get me out of this house. ::whistle::

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #116 on: Tue Apr 07, 2020 - 08:28:00 »
Dpr, you and I at least agree that the “rapture” is immediately post-tribulational, but of course we part company in understanding when that Great Tribulation took place - which was back in the first century from AD 66-70.

You, of course, and those who follow your position have absolutely no explanation of why Christ prophesied that there would continue to be lesser periods of tribulation AFTER THAT GREAT TRIBULATION that would never be able to compare with the severity of that former time.  The Great Tribulation was to be like no other either BEFORE THEN, or even *AFTERWARD* (“...no, nor ever SHALL BE” - Matt. 24:21).  This means time was going to march on for quite a while *AFTER* CHRIST’s SECOND COMING, which IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWED that Great Tribulation with no time interval between (Matthew 24:29-31).

And you have indeed invented a translation-type of change to immortality for the bodies of living believers who have not passed through the appointed one-time death process.  Scripture makes NO SUCH PROMISE to us.   This is a man-made presumption that has traditionally been falsely imposed on the I Thess. 4 and I Cor. 15:51 verses that describe the “rapture”.

You are missing a word in your interpretation. Scripture’s description involves more than just those who are “alive” who were to be  caught up in the clouds to meet Christ; they would be those who are “alive and *REMAIN*” who were caught up.  Do you even realize the significance of that?  The use of that Greek word imposes a kind of RESERVED STATUS on those “living” ones.  They were a distinctive group that had been SET APART FOR A SPECIFIC PURPOSE.  (An example of this word use is “...there REMAINETH therefore a rest for the people of God.”  A certain rest was RESERVED, or set apart for the people of God.)

This is just like the 144,000 First-fruits Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints coming from the First Resurrection along with Christ, who were given the “SEAL OF THE LIVING GOD”, and were put in a reserved, protected status according to Rev. 7:2 and 14:1. 

I contend that this RESERVED, “REMAINING” status for these “alive” saints in I Thess. 4 was their being ALREADY-resurrected individuals (like the Matthew 27:52-63 saints) who had been made “alive” by being given incorruptible immortal bodies - like Dorcas who had been “presented alive” to her friends in Acts 9:41. 

It has absolutely nothing to do with the false idea of the bodies of ordinary living believers who haven’t died yet being so-called “translated” at Christ’s return(s).

Offline dpr

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #117 on: Tue Apr 07, 2020 - 16:29:22 »
Dpr, you and I at least agree that the “rapture” is immediately post-tribulational, but of course we part company in understanding when that Great Tribulation took place - which was back in the first century from AD 66-70.

Nah, the time of "great tribulation" Jesus warned of is for the very end of this world, just prior to His 2nd coming. It has not happened yet. With that Sign He gave the coming of the final Antichrist, the pseudo-Christ He warned would, IF possible, deceive even His very elect by the working of great signs and wonders. That didn't happen in 70 A.D., nor any time after to this day.

Quote
You, of course, and those who follow your position have absolutely no explanation of why Christ prophesied that there would continue to be lesser periods of tribulation AFTER THAT GREAT TRIBULATION that would never be able to compare with the severity of that former time.  The Great Tribulation was to be like no other either BEFORE THEN, or even *AFTERWARD* (“...no, nor ever SHALL BE” - Matt. 24:21).  This means time was going to march on for quite a while *AFTER* CHRIST’s SECOND COMING, which IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWED that Great Tribulation with no time interval between (Matthew 24:29-31).

Nah, I follow God's Word as written in its simplicity. It's not that difficult, one just has to decide if they're going to listen to God in His Word, or listen to men's doctrines. It's you that's following men's doctrines of Preterism, and they don't have much respect for God's Word as written, and instead like to just play religion.

See, you can't even explain what Jesus said properly in your own words. He said it will be a great tribulation such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, nor ever shall be. That idea means it will be a time on earth never seen before, nor ever will again. He's actually quoting from Daniel 12:1...

Dan 12:1
12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
KJV


The reason why the time of great tribulation will never be seen again is because Jesus returns to end it. And that is what that Daniel 12:1 shows with those being delivered, which is also what the Matthew 24:21-31 Scripture shows, applied to both Israel and His Church. Thusly, there is no time gap between the end of the tribulation, because Jesus' 2nd coming is what ends it. For Preterism to be true, which says that tribulation happened back in the Apostle's days, there would have to be a time gap between it and the future when Jesus' 2nd coming happens. There isn't, simply because Jesus' LITERAL return as written has not happened yet today.

I don't have time for the rest of your false accusations, they are just make-believe ideas with absolutely no substance.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #118 on: Wed Apr 08, 2020 - 02:03:21 »
Are you serious dpr?

Do you really not see that the words  “such as” is talking about OTHER periods of tribulation that would be compared to the period of the Great Tribulation, but which would never equal it or even surpass it in the future, AFTER it was over?  It never fails to astound me how people can stumble over simple English words and phrases...

A comparable statement could be made, for example, if we said “There has never been a presidency such as President Trump’s since there was a nation, no, nor ever shall be.”  You would naturally assume that there will be FUTURE PRESIDENCIES FOLLOWING THAT OF PRESIDENT TRUMP BEING IN OFFICE.  Just as there were going to be FUTURE TIMES OF TRIBULATION following AFTER the Great Tribulation, but which would never be “such as” the Great Tribulation had been before then. 

Conclusion: the Great Tribulation was never going to be occurring at the very end of fallen man’s history on this planet, and Christ’s  second coming that would be  “immediately after” that Great Tribulation would be followed by those OTHER periods of lesser tribulation for the nations.
« Last Edit: Wed Apr 08, 2020 - 02:20:58 by 3 Resurrections »

Offline dpr

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #119 on: Wed Apr 08, 2020 - 13:02:53 »
Are you serious dpr?

Do you really not see that the words  “such as” is talking about OTHER periods of tribulation that would be compared to the period of the Great Tribulation, but which would never equal it or even surpass it in the future, AFTER it was over?  It never fails to astound me how people can stumble over simple English words and phrases...

It is you... that needs to get serious about following English grammar instead of making up baloney ideas like "such as" meaning something other than just a relative pronoun like 'which'. Preterists idiotic abuse of "at hand" is bad enough, but your attempt to rewrite English grammar on a basic connecting word like "such as" (which serves as 'which'), is just even more idiotic.
« Last Edit: Wed Apr 08, 2020 - 13:06:38 by dpr »

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #120 on: Wed Apr 08, 2020 - 20:33:03 »
Dpr,

You need to please look up the use of a simile in English grammar.  The word “Like” or “as” is our cue that we have found two separate  things that are being compared.  The words  “Such AS”  found in Matt. 24:21 are forming a comparison between two separate things.   You cannot substitute the word “which” without changing the meaning entirely.

I still maintain that my Conclusion is spot on in agreement with scripture regarding future times of tribulation AFTER the Great Tribulation and Christ’s return that immediately followed it.  Which demands a THIRD COMING of Christ to bodily resurrect the saints that will have lived and died under the New Covenant.

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #121 on: Thu Apr 09, 2020 - 12:27:42 »
Dpr,

You need to please look up the use of a simile in English grammar.  The word “Like” or “as” is our cue that we have found two separate  things that are being compared.  The words  “Such AS”  found in Matt. 24:21 are forming a comparison between two separate things.   You cannot substitute the word “which” without changing the meaning entirely.

I still maintain that my Conclusion is spot on in agreement with scripture regarding future times of tribulation AFTER the Great Tribulation and Christ’s return that immediately followed it.  Which demands a THIRD COMING of Christ to bodily resurrect the saints that will have lived and died under the New Covenant.

Anyway, the phrase "such as" is NOT the original language in the text. The Greek word that is... simply means 'which'...

NT:3634
hoios (hoy'-os); probably akin to NT:3588, NT:3739, and NT:3745; such or what sort of (as a correlation or exclamation); especially the neuter (adverbial) with negative, not so:

KJV - so (as), such as, what (manner of), which.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)


There is NO third coming of Christ. God's Word only declares TWO, not three. Even in the OT prophets only 2 comings are declared...


Zech.9:9 is Christ's 1st coming, and verse 10 is Christ's 2nd coming:

Zech 9:9-10
9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from river even to the ends of the earth.
KJV


Men's doctrine of Preterism does the error that Futurists also make with ADDING another coming of Christ that is NOT written.

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #122 on: Sat Apr 18, 2020 - 18:27:36 »
There is no end time 7 year tribulation period. Neither does the rapture happen until after the dead in Christ rise first on the last day. Therefore the rapture also happens on the last day. I will make a thread showing these false doctrines of a 7 year trib/early rapture timing.