Author Topic: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?  (Read 7064 times)

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Offline dpr

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #35 on: Wed Sep 07, 2016 - 10:45:31 »

The glorified body or the resurrected body is indestructable. It's the body that Jesus had after the resurrection, a glorified body that all will have whether with Christ or in hell. It's flesh and bone that can walk through walls and disapear here and show up somewhere else, unless that person finds themselves in hell.

I read the scripture literally unless it becomes obvious that it's symbolic. You will find that less speculation is needed to make the dots connect.

Well, the "spiritual body" we will have per Apostle Paul will not be exactly like our Lord Jesus' resurrected body. Remember His Body was transfigured to the resurrection, as His flesh body was not found, and His resurrection body retained the marks of His crucifixion.

Our resurrection body will be a simple putting off of our flesh body.

The resurrection body, or "spiritual body" or "image of the heavenly" as Paul called it, is a body of spirit, not flesh and bone:

1 Cor 15:50
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV


Again, I don't know why you continue to try and suggestion I'm speculating on this, as you're simply not able to prove anything by that kind of statement. I'm giving you Scripture proof in my posts, and as with most on these kind of forums, you refuse to address them, and instead just add your own reasoning outside the actual context of Scripture, which is speculation.

The John 5:28-29 Scripture, again:

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV


Breaking the phrases down:


"for the hour is coming"
- when an hour is mentioned in God's Word, it means a very specific point in time. And it indeed is hour in the Greek NT manuscripts also. So it's not talking about two separate times. It's pointing to ONE specific time, a certain 'hour' of a certain 24 hour day.


"all that are in the graves shall hear His voice" - does that say 'some' in the graves will hear His voice while others will not? Nope! It says "all in the graves". And the Greek word for "all" there means 'the whole'.


"And shall come forth" - does that say only 'some' shall come forth? No, it is pointing back to that "all" shall come forth.


"they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life" - those who have done good go to the resurrection of life. That's those in Christ Jesus.


"they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation"
- these are the wicked dead that are raised. These are part of that "all" that hear His voice in that specific "hour".

What "hour" is that?:

Isa 26:19
19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
KJV

John 6:39
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
KJV

1 Cor 15:22
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
KJV

1 Thess 4:16
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
KJV


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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #35 on: Wed Sep 07, 2016 - 10:45:31 »

Offline dpr

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #36 on: Wed Sep 07, 2016 - 11:03:16 »

No, I don't think so. You clearly made the literal dead of 20:5 a spiritual dead because you couldn't answer the question I asked without making that change.

The saved of 20:4 did not receive the mark of the beast in their foreheads, they were beheaded, that is clearly literal.

But the very next sentence, the dead that lived not again is a spiritual death according to you. I don't think so!

I didn't make any 'change'. And the idea of 'spiritually' dead is a literal meaning involving the state of one's soul, the "this mortal" part Paul was talking about in 1 Cor.15.

1 Cor 15:53
3 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
KJV


If you go into the Greek NT with that, you'll find it's 4 different Greek words, with 4 different meanings.

If you had understood about the idea from Jesus in John 3 about being "born again", then you should have understood what I was talking about.

Offline Stranger

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #37 on: Thu Sep 08, 2016 - 05:38:04 »
I hold to the pre-trib rapture.

If one holds to the post-trib rapture, then you need not look for the Lords return.  You look for the Tribulation.  Because it will be seven years before the rapture.

If one says, we won't know when the Tribulation begins, then it doesn't matter whether one is pre, mid, or post. 

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Offline dpr

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #38 on: Sat Sep 10, 2016 - 09:04:21 »
I hold to the pre-trib rapture.

If one holds to the post-trib rapture, then you need not look for the Lords return.  You look for the Tribulation.  Because it will be seven years before the rapture.

If one says, we won't know when the Tribulation begins, then it doesn't matter whether one is pre, mid, or post. 

Stranger

Sorry, but that just doesn't make sense. The Pre-trib Rapture theory is about a rapture PRIOR to the tribulation of 7 years.

It's not a Biblical doctrine anyway. It's just a theory from men, started in 1830's Great Britain by the Irvingites and John Darby and the Brethren movement.

Our Lord Jesus taught that if the goodman of the house knew in what 'watch' the thief would come, then he wouldn't have allowed his house to be broken into (Matt.24). His Message is that we are to be on watch all the way up to the time of His 2nd coming, even though we don't know that day or hour.

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #38 on: Sat Sep 10, 2016 - 09:04:21 »
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Offline Stranger

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #39 on: Sat Sep 10, 2016 - 11:38:57 »
dpr

But I said post-trib, concerning not needing to look for the Lords return.  Makes sense to me.

Yes, we need to always be watching.  But, if post-trib, or mid-trib for that matter, is correct, then we need only look first for the Tribulation.

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #39 on: Sat Sep 10, 2016 - 11:38:57 »



Offline dpr

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #40 on: Sun Sep 11, 2016 - 10:45:28 »
dpr

But I said post-trib, concerning not needing to look for the Lords return.  Makes sense to me.

Yes, we need to always be watching.  But, if post-trib, or mid-trib for that matter, is correct, then we need only look first for the Tribulation.

Stranger

We are to be watching all... the way up to Christ's return. And for post-trib, that means all the way through the tribulation to its ending on the day Jesus comes. We simply do not know that exact day or hour, but we have been given the times and the seasons, which is something Paul was preaching in 1 Thess.5.

When Jesus said if the goodman of the house knew in what watch the thief comes, then he wouldn't have allowed his house to be broken into. That is pointing to our need to be on watch (a watch was a period of 4 hrs., 3 watches in the night). Not only that but we are to be giving meat in due season, which is a metaphor for helping to prepare His sheep to watch also.

Offline Stranger

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #41 on: Sun Sep 11, 2016 - 14:57:34 »
dpr

Yes, I know we are to be watching.  But why watch if the Tribulation is going to happen first?  We know the Tribulation lasts 7 years.  So, when it starts we still got 7 years.  Or, 3 and a half, depending on your position.

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Offline Rella

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #42 on: Sun Sep 11, 2016 - 18:35:52 »
dpr

Yes, I know we are to be watching.  But why watch if the Tribulation is going to happen first?  We know the Tribulation lasts 7 years.  So, when it starts we still got 7 years.  Or, 3 and a half, depending on your position.

Stranger

Because you will not know it is the Tribulation until it is really bad. It will most likely sneak slowly upon us, starting with such mundane things as the demoralizing of mankind though the likes of LGBTA agenda's and others.

In otherwords, as Jesus will come as a thief in the night... I believe so will the Tribulation and we won't know when the true beginning began.

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #43 on: Sun Sep 11, 2016 - 19:06:46 »
Rella

If that is true, then it really doesn't matter if one is pre, mid, or post.  If we can't know when it starts, there is no way to distinguish pre, mid, or post.   If you say, when Jesus returns we know its over, that doesn't explain the many times the time element of 7 years is given for the Tribulation and the time element of 3 and one half years for the middle of the Tribulation. 

Don't you think those time periods will be important to the believers on the earth at that time?   But if there is not knowledge of a starting point, they don't matter at all.

God didn't give the numbers for His benefit.  He always knows.  Why would He give us such numbers if they don't mean anything?  And how can they mean anything if we don't have a starting point?

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Offline Star of David

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #44 on: Sun Sep 11, 2016 - 21:31:17 »
I personally think that God is amused by all of these fanciful concoctions on the part of human beings who think that they can lay out an elaborate End Times scenario consisting of a Rapture, Seven Years of Tribulation (or 3 1/2 Years of Tribulation), Antichrist, Armageddon, '666', Mark of the Beast, etc., etc.

Especially when none of the above God has planned for, at all, during the years leading up to Christ's return to earth.

God had a similar laugh 2,000 years ago when the Jewish religious leaders took the messianic prophecies and fancied that the Messiah would be a powerful Jewish warrior who would liberate Israel from the domination of Rome. Instead, God had much different plans for His Messiah.

2,000 years later, it will now be the Christian religious leaders who will have egg on their collective faces.

« Last Edit: Mon Sep 12, 2016 - 00:56:05 by Star of David »

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #45 on: Sun Sep 11, 2016 - 22:37:49 »

I personally think that God is amused by all of these fanciful concoctions on the part of human beings who think that they can lay out an elaborate End Times scenario consisting of a Rapture, Seven Years of Tribulation (or 3 1/2 Years of Tribulation), Antichrist, Armageddon, '666', Mark of the Beast, etc., etc.

Especially when none of the above God has planned for, at all, during the years leading up to Christ's return to earth.
 

It seems that everyone thinks differently about this, and everyone thinks they are right. ::shrug::

Offline Star of David

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #46 on: Mon Sep 12, 2016 - 01:45:06 »

I personally think that God is amused by all of these fanciful concoctions on the part of human beings who think that they can lay out an elaborate End Times scenario consisting of a Rapture, Seven Years of Tribulation (or 3 1/2 Years of Tribulation), Antichrist, Armageddon, '666', Mark of the Beast, etc., etc.

Especially when none of the above God has planned for, at all, during the years leading up to Christ's return to earth.
 

It seems that everyone thinks differently about this, and everyone thinks they are right. ::shrug::

chosenone, I amended my post to add the following to it:


God had a similar laugh 2,000 years ago when the Jewish religious leaders took the messianic prophecies and fancied that the Messiah would be a powerful Jewish warrior who would liberate Israel from the domination of Rome. Instead, God had much different plans for His Messiah.

2,000 years later, it will now be the Christian religious leaders who will have egg on their collective faces.



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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #47 on: Mon Sep 12, 2016 - 03:23:46 »
Because you will not know it is the Tribulation until it is really bad. It will most likely sneak slowly upon us, starting with such mundane things as the demoralizing of mankind though the likes of LGBTA agenda's and others. In otherwords, as Jesus will come as a thief in the night... I believe so will the Tribulation and we won't know when the true beginning began.
This is true, very true. The spiritul tribulation as prophesied by Daniel, Christ, Paul and John, all happens WHILE the church is still in the earth, and the beast WILL make war with the chosen seed and OVERCOME THEM and drive them from the temple of God, where the generation of serpents will set up and rule therein. The GRADUAL process started in and around early 1800 hundred when this world was flooded with MANY false cults~to just name a few....Mormonism, SDA, Jehovah Witnesses, Christian Science, and such likes, and a little later, Pentecosts/and other charismatic type followers, etc.; to go along with the many already here in great numbers...RCC, EOC, etc. This just did not happen ALL at once. SOD said: 
Quote
I personally think that God is amused by all of these fanciful concoctions on the part of human beings who think that they can lay out an elaborate End Times scenario consisting of a Rapture, Seven Years of Tribulation (or 3 1/2 Years of Tribulation), Antichrist, Armageddon, '666', Mark of the Beast, etc., etc. Especially when none of the above God has planned for, at all, during the years leading up to Christ's return to earth.God had a similar laugh 2,000 years ago when the Jewish religious leaders took the messianic prophecies and fancied that the Messiah would be a powerful Jewish warrior who would liberate Israel from the domination of Rome. Instead, God had much different plans for His Messiah. 2,000 years later, it will now be the Christian religious leaders who will have egg on their collective faces.
Actually, these words are also very true, it's sad that the rest of your overall understanding is off, and I truly mean that. Stranger said:
Quote
If that is true, then it really doesn't matter if one is pre, mid, or post.  If we can't know when it starts, there is no way to distinguish pre, mid, or post.
Why not? BY following the scriptures and teaching that the Antichrist, man of sin, the abomination of desolation, perilous times, great falling away shall come FIRST, before Jesus Christ return to gathered together HIS ELECT/CHURCH  is clearly separating one's eschatology into a school of thought~while it is very true, that even among the different schools of thoughts, there are differences of understanding, nevertheless, EVERYONE'S position on these things, will put you into one of the three schools.  Chosenone said:
Quote
It seems that everyone thinks differently about this, and everyone thinks they are right. ::shrug::
Nothing new under the sun, the point is that truth will prevail over error~Christ and Paul both warned us that many will be deceived during this time at the end of the world OVER these very truths. Matthew 24:4; 2nd Thessalonians 2:3. Stranger said:
Quote
We know the Tribulation lasts 7 years.  So, when it starts we still got 7 years.  Or, 3 and a half, depending on your position.
That's not correct. You have been taught that but will not find support from Daniel 7-12; Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 21; 2nd Thessalonians 2; 2nd Timothy 3:1-4:5; 1st John 2; and especially  Revelation, the main book that you think you will find support, will not support such a theory, and a man made theory it is.   
« Last Edit: Mon Sep 12, 2016 - 03:29:49 by RB »

Offline Stranger

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #48 on: Mon Sep 12, 2016 - 05:44:10 »
RB

You ask me "Why Not?"  in your reply #47.

Because the topic is 'where do you stand on the pretribulation rapture'  And the terms pre, mid, and post are based on the Tribulation.  If you don't have a starting point, you can't know the pre, mid, or post. 

Yes I know there are differing schools of thought concerning this.  And you list many things that come 'first'.  You believe the word 'first' there means first, don't you?    Yet the words 'seven' and 'three and a half' don't mean 'seven' or 'three and a half'?

What I can tell of your position is that there is no pre, mid, or post rapture.  You just have the second coming of Christ. 

Stranger
« Last Edit: Mon Sep 12, 2016 - 13:17:49 by Stranger »

Offline RB

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #49 on: Mon Sep 12, 2016 - 16:14:22 »
What I can tell of your position is that there is no pre, mid, or post rapture.  You just have the second coming of Christ. 
I'm post~yes, I do believe that we which are alive and remain shall be caught to meet the Lord in the air, and will come immediately back with him and destroy his enemies, and then the great white throne judgment  shall begin. That's the order given to us from Christ, Paul and John. I believe in a rapture (catching up) but not in the way that the pre-mill teach.
Quote
Revelation 11:12~"And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them."
It will not be a "secret rapture" as so many teach! 

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #50 on: Mon Sep 12, 2016 - 16:52:23 »
RB

So why does 'first' mean first.   But 'seven and three and a half' doesn't mean 'seven or three and a half'?

What is the purpose of the rapture if we just do an immediate U turn?   

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #51 on: Wed Sep 14, 2016 - 10:38:19 »
Unknowingly or otherwise, when you hold to a belief in a pre-tribulation rapture you are...

1. Rejecting the central figure of the Scriptures, Jesus, and you are rejecting the central theme of the Scriptures which is the restoration of mankind back to a right relationship with God Almighty.

2. Rejecting the Gospel and the Gospel was first proclaimed in Genesis 3:15.

3. Rejecting that God's covering of Adam and Eve's sin was pointing to Jesus whose blood would be the covering and price paid for all of humanity's sin.

4. Rejecting the Book of Hebrews and ignoring the theme of Hebrews that Jesus is better than Moses and the Law.

5. Rejecting the Book of Romans message that neither Jew nor Gentile have a favored position in Christ, and you are also rejecting the message of Ephesians that One New Man has been created in Christ Jesus.   

6. Asserting that the Hebrews have a superior position and Gentiles will be secondary and essentially in a servant's position to them under the Law and with worship resumed in a new Temple,  where animal sacrifices will have been restored.    Christ's reconciliation of humanity will have been rendered ineffective and the Law which brings condemnation will again be in place for one thousand years during a temporary earthly kingdom on an Earth that is still cursed and unrestored.   

Literal fulfillment?   There is no more literal fulfillment than how Jesus Himself has already fulfilled the major prophecies that the early rapture proponents are still looking to have fulfillment in the future.     
« Last Edit: Wed Sep 14, 2016 - 10:44:49 by notreligus »

Offline Stranger

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #52 on: Wed Sep 14, 2016 - 11:45:37 »
notreligious

Well, I am pre-trib and I knowingly reject all 6 of your statements.  You might explain how being pre-trib rejects and asserts the things you have said.

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Offline dpr

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #53 on: Sun Sep 25, 2016 - 20:02:00 »
dpr

Yes, I know we are to be watching.  But why watch if the Tribulation is going to happen first?  We know the Tribulation lasts 7 years.  So, when it starts we still got 7 years.  Or, 3 and a half, depending on your position.

Stranger

Because in Matt.24 Jesus said He shortened the time for His elect's sake (which is about the latter part of the trib when the false Christ shows up). Do you know what that shortened time is for the end? If you are paying attention to the times and the seasons for the end, then you should know that. It's given in Rev.9.

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #54 on: Sun Sep 25, 2016 - 20:07:55 »

Because you will not know it is the Tribulation until it is really bad. It will most likely sneak slowly upon us, starting with such mundane things as the demoralizing of mankind though the likes of LGBTA agenda's and others.

In otherwords, as Jesus will come as a thief in the night... I believe so will the Tribulation and we won't know when the true beginning began.

I think it is definitely possible to know when it starts; when the first 1260 is over also, per the Books of Daniel, Revelation, and Jesus' Olivet discourse.

Jesus will come as a thief on the day of The Lord; that's what He and Apostles Paul and Peter revealed (Rev.16:15; 1 Thess.5; 2 Pet.3:10). That day of The Lord is the final day of this world, i.e., the final 7th Vial, and the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe.


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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #55 on: Sun Sep 25, 2016 - 21:15:50 »
dpr

Concerning your reply # 53:  So what?  It doesn't matter if the time is shortened.   What matters is that the Tribulation is going to occur first.

Stranger 


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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #56 on: Mon Sep 26, 2016 - 05:19:03 »
dpr

My point is that if you say the Tribulation comes before the rapture,, then why watch for Christ?   Just watch for the Tribulation. 

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Offline dpr

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #57 on: Mon Sep 26, 2016 - 09:44:42 »
dpr

My point is that if you say the Tribulation comes before the rapture,, then why watch for Christ?   Just watch for the Tribulation. 

Stranger

Watching for the signs of the end Jesus gave us is to be watching for His coming.

It's those who think to be raptured prior to the trib that are taught they have no need to watch. Our Lord Jesus commanded us to 'watch', so there's another point.

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #58 on: Mon Sep 26, 2016 - 11:30:16 »
dpr

Are you calling the Tribulation the signs of the end because you don't know when the Tribulation will start?   If the Tribulation lasts seven years, then I need not watch for Christ.   

I don't understand why the pre-trib rapture means we don't need to watch.  If it comes prior to the Tribulation then it can come at anytime. 

Yes Christ did command us to watch.  And that was based on us not knowing the time.  Which only the pre-trib belief allows.

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #59 on: Wed Sep 28, 2016 - 12:08:00 »
dpr

Are you calling the Tribulation the signs of the end because you don't know when the Tribulation will start?   If the Tribulation lasts seven years, then I need not watch for Christ.   

I don't understand why the pre-trib rapture means we don't need to watch.  If it comes prior to the Tribulation then it can come at anytime. 

Yes Christ did command us to watch.  And that was based on us not knowing the time.  Which only the pre-trib belief allows.

Stranger

Something has you confused. Those on the Pre-trib Rapture are told they have no need to watch because they say Christ's coming can be 'at any moment'. That's why that doctrine is also called by that nickname, the "Any Moment" doctrine by critics. I agree with that nickname, basically what they are preaching. But they don't follow Bible Scripture close enough.

For example, they will use Paul's "thief in the night" idea to preach that 'any moment' idea. Yet they will totally discard Rev.16:15 on the 6th Vial where Jesus said He comes "as a thief", and the next event is His gathering of His enemies at the battle of Armageddon on the final 7th Vial.

Likewise in Rev.3:3 to the Church at Sardis Jesus warned them that if they did not watch then He would come upon them "as a thief" and they would not know in what "hour" He would come upon them.

In 1 Thess.5 Apostle Paul said the "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night". He then said to the brethren there that day was not to overtake them "as a thief" (1 Thess.5:2-4).

So what gives? Jesus said no man knows the day or the hour of His coming. But in Rev.3:3 He gave us an example that we are to be watching to know the hour of His coming. Paul basically says the same thing, because that "day of the Lord" event is the final day of this world, first given through the OT prophets (especially in Isaiah).

The 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe represents that day also, because when that final trumpet blows Rev.11 shows all the kingdoms of this world become those of The Father and The Son. We are shown that 7th Trumpet blows 3.5 days prior to God's two witnesses being killed with their dead bodies left laying in the street of Jerusalem.

Thing is, no man knows when that 7th Trumpet is going to blow. Based on events today, it could be next year, or it could be ten years, or fifty years from now. We can only know that when God's two witnesses of Rev.11 are killed with their dead bodies left laying the street of Jerusalem for 3.5 days, then in that... "hour" we may expect Lord Jesus' 2nd coming to gather His Church and fight the battle of Armageddon. And that battle will be over at an instant. So there's you a sign Jesus gave His. Who will you listen to though, Him or men's doctrines like the Pre-trib Rapture theory?

Offline Stranger

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #60 on: Wed Sep 28, 2016 - 13:42:10 »
dpr

Concerning your reply # 59

I am pre-trib and I don't ever remember anyone telling me I have no need to watch.  The rapture can occur at anytime, which leads one to want to be in a right walk and relationship with Christ.  And I'm not claiming to live up to that by the way.  But I should.

Paul's use of 'thief in the night' in Thessalonians speaks to the Day of the Lord.  Not the rapture.  As does Rev.16:15.  I see no problem. 

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. The Day of the Lord is not the rapture.

Of course you don't know when the 7th trumpet is going to blow. Because you don't know when the Tribulation starts.  Which means of course,  being pre or mid trib is meaningless.   

It's easy to say of another's doctrine that it is 'men's doctrine' and not true.  It becomes harder to prove it.

Stranger
« Last Edit: Wed Sep 28, 2016 - 13:45:32 by Stranger »

Offline dpr

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #61 on: Thu Sep 29, 2016 - 11:28:11 »
dpr

Concerning your reply # 59

I am pre-trib and I don't ever remember anyone telling me I have no need to watch.  The rapture can occur at anytime, which leads one to want to be in a right walk and relationship with Christ.  And I'm not claiming to live up to that by the way.  But I should.

I figured you were pre-trib.

If the pre-trib preachers aren't preaching we don't have to watch anymore today, they used to. I've noticed the pre-trib rapture theory changing some principles even within my lifetime. John Darby in the 1830's originally taught that it would be a secret rapture, which idea is not written either.

Quote
Paul's use of 'thief in the night' in Thessalonians speaks to the Day of the Lord.  Not the rapture.  As does Rev.16:15.  I see no problem. 

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. The Day of the Lord is not the rapture.


Actually, the "day of the Lord" event is... when Jesus comes to gather His Church. It's the last day of this world, the time when Jesus will gather the resurrected "asleep" saints, and then those of us alive on earth.

The latest I've heard pre-trib preach on the timing of the "day of the Lord" is that it starts at the beginning of the trib and flows through it to the end. Not so per God's Word:

Isa 13:6-11
6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
KJV

Joel 1:15
15 Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.
KJV

Joel 3:14-17
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
KJV

Obad 15-17
15 For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.
16 For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.
17 But upon mount Zion shall be deliverance, and there shall be holiness; and the house of Jacob shall possess their possessions.
KJV



The "day of the Lord" is to happen suddenly, at an instant:

Isa 29:5-7
5 Moreover the multitude of thy strangers shall be like small dust, and the multitude of the terrible ones shall be as chaff that passeth away: yea, it shall be at an instant suddenly.

6 Thou shalt be visited of the LORD of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake, and great noise, with storm and tempest, and the flame of devouring fire.

7 And the multitude of all the nations that fight against Ariel, even all that fight against her and her munition, and that distress her, shall be as a dream of a night vision.
KJV



That is what Apostle Paul was talking about in 1 Thess.5 when he foretold about the deceived who will be saying, "Peace and safety". He said when they begin saying that, that's when "sudden destruction" will come upon them. That's the "day of the Lord" event of God's cup of Wrath being poured out upon the earth on the LAST day. It will END the tribulation, not start it. And at an instant suddenly is where the "as a thief in the night" idea comes from. Paul was teaching that from the OT prophets, like those Scriptures I posted above.

The wrath Paul was speaking of in 1 Thess.5 is this specific wrath from God on the very last day of this world to end the tribulation by the wicked.


Quote
Of course you don't know when the 7th trumpet is going to blow. Because you don't know when the Tribulation starts.  Which means of course,  being pre or mid trib is meaningless. 

Right on your first statements, but not your last one. I'll explain the difference in another post below.

 
Quote
It's easy to say of another's doctrine that it is 'men's doctrine' and not true.  It becomes harder to prove it.

Stranger

Proving Darby's pre-trib rapture is wrong isn't difficult as long one sticks to written Scripture. What's difficult is trying to remove the blinders the doctrine places on its adherents that gets them away from the Scriptures, like the OT Scriptures about the day of the Lord that I posted which clearly show it's a certain day of God's Wrath upon the wicked, and not upon His people.

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #62 on: Thu Sep 29, 2016 - 12:12:01 »
The difference between pre-trib, mid-trib, and post-trib views will determine whether or not the believer is prepared to make a stand for Jesus in the last days.


The Main Event For The End:


I'll assume all of those 3 views understands Bible prophecy about the coming false one foretold of in the Book of Daniel, in our Lord Jesus' Olivet discourse (Matt.24; Mark 13; Luke 21), by Paul in 2 Thess.2:1-9, and through John in Rev.12 & 13. All 3 views do recognize that coming false one (Antichrist), the main difference being when Jesus raptures His Church.

1. Pre-Trib:
The pre-trib rapture position doesn't prepare one to make a stand for Jesus during the trib, because it teaches Jesus will come prior to the trib to rapture the Church. But no such event is written for that happening prior to the trib; the doctrine has misinterpreted the events of Scripture (like that "day of the Lord" I mentioned in my previous post). These will not... be prepared to make a stand for Jesus when the pseudo-Christ/Antichrist shows up on earth working great signs and wonders that will cause them to mistake that fake for our Lord Jesus.

(Our Lord Jesus showed us already to what level of the power of deception the coming Antichrist is going to work. When He said that if it were possible, even His very elect would be deceived by that false one doing great signs and wonders, that shows how tempting the Antichrist is going to be upon the whole world leading to thinking he is God on earth (in our case, like Jesus on earth). This is a very important point our Lord Jesus wanted us to understand. The coming Antichrist is not going to simply be some flesh man throwing mystic powder up in the sky like a pagan shaman. The Antichrist is coming with the power of a god, working miracles. So it will be very tempting to think that's our Lord Jesus if you don't understand the signs and the seasons for the end our Lord Jesus and His Apostles gave us.)

2. Mid-Trib:
Mid-trib teaches Jesus comes to rapture His Church in the middle of Daniel's symbolic "one week" of Dan.9:27. That means after the first 1260 days of the seven years "one week". Per Dan.9, that's also when the pseudo-Christ/Antichrist shows up to end sacrifices in Jerusalem that will going on, and instead places the Rev.13 "image of the beast" idol for false worship instead. They see the latter 1260 days of the Daniel timeline as the actual time of the tribulation (which is technically true).

Nevertheless, the coming false one shows up after the first 1260 days period per Daniel, and sets up false worship of himself like Paul showed in 2 Thess.2:4. Since Jesus does not actually come to rapture the Church until the end of the trib, these also are likely to be deceived by the coming pseudo-Christ into thinking he is our Lord Jesus.


3. Post-Trib:
This is the actual view of the end God's Word teaches; Jesus comes to gather His Church on the last day of this world, which ends the tribulation by the wicked and burns man's works off the earth. Some may not like that statement because of the veils upon them, but all will eventually discover this fact as the end progresses. These will not be deceived, as they have been given to know the events leading up to our Lord Jesus' second coming to gather His Church. These know Jesus comes only one time at the end of this world, and not two or three or more comings. These will not be deceived by the coming pseudo-Christ because they know to wait for Jesus' coming to destroy that Wicked one.

Our Lord Jesus in Matt.24 and Mark 13 was teaching 7 SIGNS of the end which parallel the events and order of the Seals of Rev.6. The final sign He gave was that of His coming and gathering of His saints, both those from Heaven, and those from the earth. The two examples of that in Matt.24 and Mark 13 directly parallel the events of 1 Thess.4 by Apostle Paul.

Zechariah 14 and Acts 1 reveals our Lord Jesus when He comes, He will return to the Mount of Olives where He ascended to Heaven from. Zechariah 14 gives the timing of that on the "day of the Lord". That is the same timing of 1 Thess.4 & 5. It is the same timing of the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe, and the 7th Vial of Rev.16. It is the final battle of Armageddon when Jesus comes to fight against the nations gathered around Jerusalem. It is the battle of Hamongog of Ezekiel 38 & 39 when the armies out of the northern quarters come upon Israel on the last day of this world.

It is the day when God's consuming fire will burn man's works off this earth:

2 Peter 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
KJV



In essence, any doctrine that teaches to believe Jesus will come to gather us prior to the final day of this world, is false, and can place the believer in danger of worshiping the pseudo-Christ that is to come first.
« Last Edit: Thu Sep 29, 2016 - 12:18:29 by dpr »

Offline Stranger

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #63 on: Thu Sep 29, 2016 - 13:33:29 »
dpr

Concerning your reply #61.

You didn't have to figure.  I have said it several times. 

Again, The Day of the Lord is not the Rapture.  I don't see anything in the verses you gave to indicate otherwise.  There is nothing in Isaiah, Joel, or Obadiah to indicate that the Day of the Lord is the Rapture.

And, I never said Paul doesn't speak about the Day of the Lord.  But the Day of the Lord is not the Rapture.

Again, I agree with 2Peter 3:10.  But the Day of the Lord is not the rapture.

Stranger

« Last Edit: Thu Sep 29, 2016 - 13:48:33 by Stranger »

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #64 on: Fri Sep 30, 2016 - 00:27:25 »
dpr

Concerning your reply #61.

You didn't have to figure.  I have said it several times. 

I didn't read it in your post, as I've not read all your posts on the forum.


Quote
Again, The Day of the Lord is not the Rapture.  I don't see anything in the verses you gave to indicate otherwise.  There is nothing in Isaiah, Joel, or Obadiah to indicate that the Day of the Lord is the Rapture.

The "day of the Lord" is... the time of the rapture of Christ's Church with Jesus coming in the clouds. Our Lord Jesus, Paul and Peter established it as fact:

1. In Revelation 16:15, on the 6th Vial timing, our Lord Jesus said He comes "as a thief". He issues a warning to His Church with that, telling them to be careful to keep their garments lest they walk naked and in shame. Then the next event is His gathering the nations to battle at Armageddon with the 7th Vial poured out, which is the LAST day of this world, i.e., the "day of the Lord".

2. In 1 Thess.5, Apostle Paul taught the "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night". Peter in 2 Pet. 3:10 said the same thing. Our Lord Jesus said He comes "as a thief", which is a direct... link to the "day of the Lord"!

By that I have just prove BY the Scriptures of God's Word, that Jesus comes "as a thief" on the "day of the Lord".

3. In 2 Thess.2:1-9, Apostle Paul taught that before Jesus comes and our gathering to Him can happen, a great falling away (apostasy) must occur first, and that Wicked one must come exalting himself as God in Jerusalem in the temple of God. Just that is enough to prove the great tribulation timing must occur prior to our Lord's return to gather us.

4. in Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, Jesus showed that He comes in the clouds to gather His Church AFTER the tribulation.

God's Word shows the "day of the Lord" is when Jesus comes to gather His Church, just as the OT prophets agree also as I have shown in my above posts.

Therefore, I must respectfully declare that you are in denial of the Scriptures on those things.


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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #65 on: Fri Sep 30, 2016 - 00:50:32 »
Now what is truly 'strange' brethren, is that many like Stranger today that are on man's Pre-trib Rapture doctrine, are apparently not aware how the pre-trib rapture theory has traditionally taught that Jesus will come "as a thief in the night", and to be ready for His coming to rapture them to Heaven!!!

Let's look again brethren, to see when... that "as a thief in the night" timing is per God's Word:

2 Peter 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
KJV


There it is; "the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night".

Pre-trib traditionally taught that Jesus comes to gather them "as a thief in the night", and they taught that could happen at 'any moment'. That's where they even got... that idea of any moment, i.e., from that "as a thief in the night" metaphor in God's Word! But now... they reject that traditional teaching????

Yes, they apparently now reject that Jesus comes "as a thief in the night", even when our Lord Jesus Himself declared emphatically that He comes "as a thief"!!!

Rev 16:15-17
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
KJV



If their denial of that timing when Jesus comes on the "day of the Lord" "as a thief" isn't bad enough, their wicked twisting of the 1 Thess.4 Scripture is even worse.

NOWHERE in 1 Thess.4 does it declare our Lord Jesus comes to rapture us out prior to the tribulation, nowhere.

But I'll bet you didn't know brethren, that 1 Thess.4 DOES declare Jesus comes to gather His Church on the LAST DAY of this world, which is when the "day of the Lord" is to occur:

1 Thess 4:13-14
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
KJV

1 Thess 4:16-17
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV



Jesus brings the "asleep" saints from Heaven with Him when He comes to gather His Church. That's when that event is of the dead in Christ rising first. That's the resurrection of those being raised on the LAST DAY of this world! That means it's impossible for that resurrection to point to any other time than the final day of this world!

Those in Christ on earth will not precede ("prevent" in verse 15) the "asleep" saints:

1 Thess 4:15
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
KJV


That word "prevent" there is Greek phthano, meaning 'anticipate or precede, or go beforehand' (Strong's 5348). Check it out for yourself if you don't believe me. Look in Strong's Exhaustive Concordance.

It means those of us still alive on earth when Jesus comes cannot precede to Heaven the "asleep" saints which must be resurrected on the day of Jesus' coming! The resurrection of the dead happens first, is what He showed. Likewise in John 5:28-29 is another witness of the resurrection happening on the day of His coming when final trump (7th trumpet) sounds.

Offline Stranger

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #66 on: Fri Sep 30, 2016 - 06:23:32 »

The "day of the Lord" is... the time of the rapture of Christ's Church with Jesus coming in the clouds. Our Lord Jesus, Paul and Peter established it as fact:

1. In Revelation 16:15, on the 6th Vial timing, our Lord Jesus said He comes "as a thief". He issues a warning to His Church with that, telling them to be careful to keep their garments lest they walk naked and in shame. Then the next event is His gathering the nations to battle at Armageddon with the 7th Vial poured out, which is the LAST day of this world, i.e., the "day of the Lord".

2. In 1 Thess.5, Apostle Paul taught the "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night". Peter in 2 Pet. 3:10 said the same thing. Our Lord Jesus said He comes "as a thief", which is a direct... link to the "day of the Lord"!

By that I have just prove BY the Scriptures of God's Word, that Jesus comes "as a thief" on the "day of the Lord".

3. In 2 Thess.2:1-9, Apostle Paul taught that before Jesus comes and our gathering to Him can happen, a great falling away (apostasy) must occur first, and that Wicked one must come exalting himself as God in Jerusalem in the temple of God. Just that is enough to prove the great tribulation timing must occur prior to our Lord's return to gather us.

4. in Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, Jesus showed that He comes in the clouds to gather His Church AFTER the tribulation.

God's Word shows the "day of the Lord" is when Jesus comes to gather His Church, just as the OT prophets agree also as I have shown in my above posts.

Therefore, I must respectfully declare that you are in denial of the Scriptures on those things.

As I said, The Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night.  What you are identifying in the verses you gave is the Second Coming of Christ.   This does begin The Day of the Lord. 

But Christ's second coming is not the rapture of the Church.

Stranger

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #67 on: Fri Sep 30, 2016 - 09:44:28 »


As I said, The Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night.  What you are identifying in the verses you gave is the Second Coming of Christ.   This does begin The Day of the Lord. 

But Christ's second coming is not the rapture of the Church.

Stranger

Well, Jesus said He comes "as a thief", which is the timing that the Pre-trib Rapture has traditionally preached is when He gathers His Church. And per Scripture, that timing is ... the "day of the Lord" timing.

Either you don't really know what all the Pre-trib Rapture theory teaches, or you just like to contradict yourself.

The rapture of the Church by Jesus' 2nd coming is on the "day of the Lord", which is the last day of this world. That is when the resurrection is, and not before.

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #68 on: Fri Sep 30, 2016 - 09:51:42 »

Well, Jesus said He comes "as a thief", which is the timing that the Pre-trib Rapture has traditionally preached is when He gathers His Church. And per Scripture, that timing is ... the "day of the Lord" timing.

Either you don't really know what all the Pre-trib Rapture theory teaches, or you just like to contradict yourself.

The rapture of the Church by Jesus' 2nd coming is on the "day of the Lord", which is the last day of this world. That is when the resurrection is, and not before.

If you don't want to deal with what I said, then tell me what you are?  Amill, Covenant Theology, what?  Give me your doctrinal persuasion.

Stranger

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #69 on: Fri Sep 30, 2016 - 10:08:45 »


If you don't want to deal with what I said, then tell me what you are?  Amill, Covenant Theology, what?  Give me your doctrinal persuasion.

Stranger

You are the one not wanting to deal with what has been said from Scripture, and that because you cannot understand it. It's you that is in denial of the written Word of God, and no one can help you until you decide you will listen to The Father and His Son in His Word instead of men's traditions.

Because you listen to men, and not God in His Word, He has put blindness upon you away from His Word. He has allowed you to deceive yourself because of not listening to Him.

You are in the category of the deceived that Apostle Paul spoke of in 1 Thess.5 that are "drunken in the night" and "sleep in the night", ideas he used to point to those spiritually drunken on the doctrines of men:

1 Thess 5:6-7
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
KJV