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Christian Interests => End Times Forum => Topic started by: Tertullian on Thu Sep 01, 2016 - 22:57:59

Title: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: Tertullian on Thu Sep 01, 2016 - 22:57:59
This question is about how your beliefs have changed over time, since you first accepted Christ.   
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: notreligus on Fri Sep 02, 2016 - 12:49:17
The Pre-Trib rapture teaching is based on the belief that the Church will be taken from the Earth while God deals with Israel during the period of wrath which God allows Satan to inflict and the next round of unleashed wrath from God, i.e. the Great Tribulation.   There are variants of this teaching but all variants come back to this.   

In Christ one new man has been created.   In Christ Jews and Gentiles are not separate races or ethnic groups.   We see the results of the teaching of separate races in what men like Al Sharpton do.   They claim to be Christians but they promote racism and they misrepresent God as though He were a racist.   Christ has torn down the dividing walls but we sinful humans (forgiven but still with a tendency toward sin) are busing rebuilding walls of separation.   (No Trump inference intended.)   We wrongly teach that even after Christ has fulfilled the Law that the Father intends to restore the Law with animal sacrifices in the new millennial Temple to point to Christ.   The entire Bible points to Jesus Christ, beginning in Genesis when God provided a sin covering for Adam and Eve.   Jesus told the Jews in John Chapter Five that they already knew Who He was and had rejected what Moses had told them in advance about Him.   Christians use the Bible like a smorgasbord and select what they want to believe and then they selectively choose Scripture as "proof texts."  I say to look from Genesis to Revelation and you will find Jesus already there.   He was not hiding from the Jews.  The Mystery was not that Jesus was to come but that He would restore a right relationship between God and all of mankind.   Jews believe that it would take God to restore all of mankind to Him.  A reading of the beliefs of Judaism will reveal this to anyone who is interested in the truth.  Since they reject that Jesus is God they do not believe that God has restored mankind to Himself and they, as individuals, are to do good works for the benefit of mankind to be worthy of God's approval.   
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: RB on Fri Sep 02, 2016 - 15:13:03
This question is about how your beliefs have changed over time, since you first accepted Christ.
"Yes.  I was taught the Pretribulation Rapture, but I no longer believe it". Back in early seventies, living in the so-called Bible belt of the world, Greenville, S.C. (Bob Jones University; The Gospel hour with Dr. Oliver B. Greene; and Tabernacle Baptist Church~ Dr. Harold B. Sightler.... I even sat under his teaching in bible school) I was taught this lie and and held to it for around four years, until I realized that I could not defend it with the word of God, and so abandoned it for the truth that I could see and support with the word of God.   
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Fri Sep 02, 2016 - 17:11:31
RB,  I have to smile at your use of the "Bible belt" term because I joke with my family sometimes that, since I grew up a few hundred yards from Oliver B. Greene's Gospel Hour facility, I can claim that I lived on the tip of the prong of the buckle on the Bible belt.  Similar to your case, I had the Tabernacle / Bob Jones pre-mil disp. teaching infused into my young brain from infancy onward.  Most (if not all) of this I have had to lay aside in order to stay true to what God has revealed to me in His word.  With that being said, I do retain a fervent gratitude to my parents for their efforts to instill a love of the scriptures in us.  They were willing to sacrifice much in order to keep us continually exposed to God's word as long as we were under their roof, and for that I thank God for them.

It's strange, but the same familiarity with the scripture that was drilled into us from the start is the very means I have relied upon to counter the positions I was taught.  I do still almost daily listen to the WTBI radio station in the workroom, simply to enjoy some of the heartfelt, uninhibited preaching, but also for the mental exercise of challenging their positions from the scripture where they go offtrack.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: Charlie24 on Fri Sep 02, 2016 - 18:03:12
I find this pretty interesting. We have 2 guys taught the pre-trib doctrine from the same area that no longer believe in it. I also spent 6 years in that same area being taught the same doctrine, but I still believe it.

The interesting part is what exactly caused this? What was the scripture that changed your minds?
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Fri Sep 02, 2016 - 22:09:13
Charlie24, if you spent that many years in this area, you probably are acquainted with the point of view regarding the "authorized 1611 KJV only" that seems to be popular in this sector (particularly at Tabernacle).  In addition to this school's influence, I attended churches in this area that also used this version exclusively, and which derided the use of the original languages as a corrupting influence for ordinary English-speaking people.  One church's pastor actually recommended correcting the Greek by using the English where the two appeared to differ.  I swallowed this inverted thinking for years.

Not anymore.  It was only when I started using the YLT or the Interlinear version and the Septuagint for daily Bible reading (along with the KJV for comparison) that I began to see places in the KJV where the use of rather generic terms had obscured the true meaning in many passages.  It's as if the translators tried to use the safest choice of words that wouldn't trigger a rejection of their work by King James.  The result of their considerable labor was a good translation that God has indeed blessed, but that unfortunately has blurred the meaning of A LOT of references with time markers in them.

For just one example, there is a world of difference between the KJV  "...there SHALL BE a resurrection of the dead, both the just and the unjust" and the Interlinear rendering "...a resurrection IS ABOUT TO BE of the dead, both of just and of unjust."  By reading the Interlinear or the YLT versions of the NT, it reveals the imminence factor that is prevalent throughout much of the NT, but that is absent in the KJV.  Using this method of reading through scripture each year has erased most of my prior understanding of when certain prophecies were to take place, and instead shifted the fulfillment of many of them from our future to our past.  This transforms the study of "last things" into a study of "past things" in many instances.

So, to answer your question, it isn't any one verse or even a few verses that have changed my viewpoint - it is the totality of scripture being read in these versions that have forced me to read it VERY.  VERY.  SLOWLY.  ONE.  WORD.  AT.  A.  TIME.  That, and being willing to admit that I have been wrong in my understanding for much of my life, and will still need to keep verifying my viewpoints by continued study of God's word. 
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: RB on Sat Sep 03, 2016 - 04:25:20
I do still almost daily listen to the WTBI radio station in the workroom, simply to enjoy some of the heartfelt, uninhibited preaching, but also for the mental exercise of challenging their positions from the scripture where they go offtrack.
I'm with you on listening to WTBI~I do it more to see what they preaching~my wife just cannot stomach much of what they have to say, nevertheless, we know there are some good people there who do believe in God, even though they think that I'm the heretic. NOW, you have me wondering again WHO YOU ARE! This is not fair to me. You said that you have been in my house, yet I cannot save the life of me, put a face on you! You are torturing me my brother! Nevertheless, I do enjoy and love the spirit that you conduct yourself with and write with. One these days I'm going to put a face on you, just give me time.  ::smile:: 
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: RB on Sat Sep 03, 2016 - 04:33:58
I also spent 6 years in that same area being taught the same doctrine, but I still believe it.
Charlie, my brother, I'm sorry you still believe that lie. As a young believer, I use to hear Mr. Greene say: "Bless God, I still believe the same thing that I believe when I first started out over thirty years ago"~those words still echo in my head with his thundering voice. Sad, that one would confess that he has never grow in grace and truth from day one, which means that they just accepted what others said, without trying every man's spirit with the word of God.  By the grace of God, I have went through SEVERAL conversions on other doctrines from when I first started out.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: Charlie24 on Sat Sep 03, 2016 - 11:36:04
It takes facts, scriptural facts, for me to change my belief on doctrine. I've found none in the past 30 years or so. I guess I was lucky to be taught the truth from the beginning.

I've seen several new doctrines that appear from first glance to be of substance, but when I went to the scripture I found fault and error.

What are some of the FACTS you guys have found that puts me in error with the pre-trib rapture?
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: dpr on Sun Sep 04, 2016 - 09:12:34
The Church I was raised in did not teach much endtime prophecy as to when Christ's coming and our gathering would be. I had to discover what God's Word says about it myself with God's help.

What I discovered was the same thing the early 1st century Church fathers understood and wrote, that Christ's 2nd coming is at the end of the tribulation after Antichrist's coming. It's then that Jesus will gather all of His Church, the asleep saints from heaven and the alive saints on earth, which is when the resurrection happens.

Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: RB on Sun Sep 04, 2016 - 15:38:16
The Church I was raised in did not teach much endtime prophecy as to when Christ's coming and our gathering would be. I had to discover what God's Word says about it myself with God's help. What I discovered was the same thing the early 1st century Church fathers understood and wrote, that Christ's 2nd coming is at the end of the tribulation after Antichrist's coming. It's then that Jesus will gather all of His Church, the asleep saints from heaven and the alive saints on earth, which is when the resurrection happens.
What little you said, and what I'm reading, and the order in which you stated your your confession, I would say that you did quite well in coming to the knowledge of he truth
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: Charlie24 on Sun Sep 04, 2016 - 17:17:24
The Church I was raised in did not teach much endtime prophecy as to when Christ's coming and our gathering would be. I had to discover what God's Word says about it myself with God's help.

What I discovered was the same thing the early 1st century Church fathers understood and wrote, that Christ's 2nd coming is at the end of the tribulation after Antichrist's coming. It's then that Jesus will gather all of His Church, the asleep saints from heaven and the alive saints on earth, which is when the resurrection happens.

Just something for you to consider, dpr.

Christ is called the "firstfruits" of the resurrection for a reason. He is compared in scripture to the firstfruits of the harvest.

The Jewish harvest took place in 3 phases which was written in the law of Moses.

The 1st phase is recorded in Lev. 23:9-10, it is the firstfruits.
"And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest."

The 2nd phase was of course, the main crop of the harvest.

The 3rd phase was what was left from the main harvest, the gleaning. If you remember, Ruth met Boaz while she was gleaning in the fields.


This is the symbolic picture of the 1st resurrection taking place in 3 phases.

1st phase   Christ is the firstfruits of the harvest.

2nd phase  The rapture of the church is the main body of the harvest.

3rd phase   Those who were led to Christ during the tribulation are the gleaning of the harvest.


The Lord will meet the saints in the air at the main body of harvest. After the great tribulation the angels will gather the gleanings at the second coming.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: Star of David on Sun Sep 04, 2016 - 17:48:35



This belief in a Rapture is based on one or more very flimsy scriptures and someone came up with this odd event less than 200 years ago.

In other words, there shall never be this embarrassing event called a "Rapture". This is where I have stood for over 20 years now.

Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: dpr on Mon Sep 05, 2016 - 15:44:31

Just something for you to consider, dpr.

Christ is called the "firstfruits" of the resurrection for a reason. He is compared in scripture to the firstfruits of the harvest.

The Jewish harvest took place in 3 phases which was written in the law of Moses.

The 1st phase is recorded in Lev. 23:9-10, it is the firstfruits.
"And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest."

The 2nd phase was of course, the main crop of the harvest.

The 3rd phase was what was left from the main harvest, the gleaning. If you remember, Ruth met Boaz while she was gleaning in the fields.


This is the symbolic picture of the 1st resurrection taking place in 3 phases.

1st phase   Christ is the firstfruits of the harvest.

2nd phase  The rapture of the church is the main body of the harvest.

3rd phase   Those who were led to Christ during the tribulation are the gleaning of the harvest.


The Lord will meet the saints in the air at the main body of harvest. After the great tribulation the angels will gather the gleanings at the second coming.

To understand how Apostle Paul meant this...

1 Cor 15:23
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming.
KJV


It's important to understand this first...

1 Cor 15:51-52
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
KJV

Because Jesus told us in John 5 when the event of the "resurrection of life" regarding the "asleep" saints will be...


John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV


So our Lord Jesus does represent the firstfruits of the harvest per the OT. But the main harvest that is next is on the day of Jesus' 2nd coming on "the day of the Lord" which comes "as a thief in the night."

So when... is that "day of the Lord" event per God's Word?

It is on the FINAL DAY of this present world. It is when God pours out His cup of wrath upon the wicked, especially the armies out of the northern quarters that come upon Israel on the last day, at Armageddon. That is on the final 7th Vial per Rev.16.

Isa 13:6-9
6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:

8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.

9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and He shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
KJV

Even Apostle Peter revealed this event from Isaiah in the 2 Peter 3 Chapter...

2 Peter 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
KJV

Notice what is to occur on that "day of the Lord". The elements of man's works are to be burned off this earth. So how can the tribulation be happening once man's works are burned off this earth??? Elsewhere in God's OT prophets, that event of sudden destruction Paul mentioned is to occur "at an instant, suddenly" (Isaiah 29:5). That means it's impossible for that "day of the Lord" event to occur prior to the great tribulation.

Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: Charlie24 on Mon Sep 05, 2016 - 16:04:50
Everything concerning the "day of the Lord" and the "thief in the night" are speaking of the second coming.

I believe the saints will meet Jesus in the air before this takes place, for several reasons.

It's just another rapture argument, I wanted to show you the harvest. The Lord will set it straight one day and we'll have nothing to argue about.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: dpr on Mon Sep 05, 2016 - 16:21:22

....

The 3rd phase was what was left from the main harvest, the gleaning. If you remember, Ruth met Boaz while she was gleaning in the fields.

This is the symbolic picture of the 1st resurrection taking place in 3 phases.

1st phase   Christ is the firstfruits of the harvest.

2nd phase  The rapture of the church is the main body of the harvest.

3rd phase   Those who were led to Christ during the tribulation are the gleaning of the harvest.
....

If Jesus' gathering of His Church, both the "asleep" saints and His saints still alive on earth on the day of His return after the tribulation is the main body harvest (which it is), then when is the time of gleaning? That should be your next question after reading my previous post.

This next idea not many will agree with me on. Yet no one will be able to disprove it per God's Word, because it is what God's Word reveals.

QUESTION: What is the implied 2nd resurrection of Revelation 20 about?

First consider what our Lord Jesus revealed in John 5:28-29 that BOTH, the "resurrection of life" and the "resurrection of damnation" occur on the day of His 2nd coming. That's what He showed there. What does that do to man's tradition that the wicked aren't resurrected until the end of Christ's 1,000 years reign of Rev.20? It creates a conflict.

Also, what does the fact that the "nations" which Satan will deceive to go up against the "camp of the saints" on earth reflect, since they are shown existing throughout Christ's 1,000 years reign also? Why would there be the 'wicked dead' not yet raised, while there's 'wicked alive' that go through Christ's 1,000 years?

But alas, John 5:28-29 to the rescue, because our Lord Jesus revealed the "asleep" saints and the wicked dead are both raised on the same day of His 2nd coming. That points to those "nations" of Rev.20 including the wicked dead that are raised at Jesus' coming.

In Revelation 3, we have an interesting promise Jesus made to His elect of the Church of Philadelphia. He told them He would make those of the synagogue of Satan to come worship at the feet of His elect. We know that has never happened in this world, not even to this day. It is reserved for the time of Christ's 1,000 years reign with His elect. And you can't point to any more of a wicked group of men than the synagogue of Satan which Jesus showed. So they are... there, during Jesus' future 1,000 years reign, under His "rod of iron" for that time like The Father promised (Ps.2).

In Revelation 20 we are told that those of the "first resurrection" cannot be subject to the "second death", which is the casting into the "lake of fire" at the end of the 1,000 years. That's about Christ's elect that will rule with Him. That 1st resurrection is the "resurrection of life" of John 5:28-29.

When an ordinal number like "first" is given, that automatically implies at least one more is to happen. But who says it has to be a resurrection of the wicked dead, just because of the end of Rev.20 mentioning the sea and hell giving up its dead?

Because John 5:28-29 about the wicked dead raised happens at the start of the 1,000 years, God's Word is actually pointing to the 2nd resurrection at God's Great White Throne Judgment being about the spiritually dead that accepted Jesus DURING the 1,000. It's another resurrection unto LIFE! not a resurrection of the wicked which is popularly taught.

So when Rev.20:5 says the "dead" lived not again until the thousand years was over, it is pointing to the spiritually dead, not literally still dead in graves. And in that time, the idea of 'Living' means being of the resurrection of Life.

All this because 1 Corinthians 15 and Isaiah 25 about death being swallowed up reveals we all... will be in the resurrection type body for Christ's 1,000 years, including the wicked, especially those called the "resurrection of damnation".

In other words, after God's consuming fire event (end of Heb.12; 2 Pet.3) on the "day of the Lord" when Jesus comes, that will END the things of this present world, including the idea of flesh death. This is why the only... type of death Rev.20 mentions is the "SECOND DEATH". Only those in Christ Jesus will not be subject to that "second death".







Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: dpr on Mon Sep 05, 2016 - 16:37:21
Everything concerning the "day of the Lord" and the "thief in the night" are speaking of the second coming.

I believe the saints will meet Jesus in the air before this takes place, for several reasons.

It's just another rapture argument, I wanted to show you the harvest. The Lord will set it straight one day and we'll have nothing to argue about.

I assume you haven't read my last post yet, but I'll post now anyway.

The Pre-trib Rapture school has traditionally used certain phrases from Apostle Paul in 1 Thess.5., like these...

"Jesus comes 'as a thief in the night' ", (because no one knows the day or hour, this idea taught along with their imminent idea that Jesus can come at any moment).

"We are not appointed to 'wrath'."


Because their use of those phrases are incomplete ideas compared to the 1 Thess.5 context, it's easy for them to propose a different timing.

But per the actual context of the 1 Thess.5 chapter, Paul said it was the "day of the Lord" event that will come "as a thief in the night".

In Rev.16:15, on the 6th Vial, Jesus is speaking to His Church still on earth, He says He comes "as a thief". And that links back to what Paul taught about that "as a thief in the night".

Paul then mentions about the wicked deceived when they say, "Peace and safety", then "sudden destruction" will come upon 'them'.

Paul was pulling from the OT prophets with that "sudden destruction" idea, it's about the "day of the Lord" event on the last day. That is the day God pours out His cup of WRATH upon the wicked on earth. That's the day He burns the sinners out of the earth per Isaiah. That's why... Paul said we are not appointed to 'wrath' in that 1 Thess.5 chapter. He was not talking about Satan's wrath we will go through during the tribulation.

By not going through the whole chapter, line upon line, and paying close attention to Paul's subject, that is how some brethren allow themselves to be easily misled with doctrines of men.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: Charlie24 on Mon Sep 05, 2016 - 17:02:00
I'm sorry dpr, but you need to go back to the scripture and get it right. You have several mistakes in your post. You must understand the facts of scripture before placing a timeline.

The first and second resurrections are separated by 1000 years.

Rev. 20:4-5
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

The bold is telling us that the dead outside of Christ have not been resurrected, but those who had the witness of Jesus lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. This is the first resurrection of the just. It's the 3rd phase of the first resurrection, the gleanings of the harvest.

Those who "lived not again" are the lost from the beginning of time until after the 1000 year reign with Christ. If you read on you will see in vs. 11-15 is the Great White throne of judgment where all the lost of all time are judged. Everyone who was not found written in the book of life were cast into the lake of fire. This is the one and only second resurrection of the damned. The last phase of the first resurrection and the second resurrection are separated by one thousand years. 
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: Texas Conservative on Mon Sep 05, 2016 - 17:03:00
The definitive commentary on the end times is "Left Behind."
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: dpr on Tue Sep 06, 2016 - 05:32:58
I'm sorry dpr, but you need to go back to the scripture and get it right. You have several mistakes in your post. You must understand the facts of scripture before placing a timeline.

The first and second resurrections are separated by 1000 years.

Rev. 20:4-5
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

The bold is telling us that the dead outside of Christ have not been resurrected, but those who had the witness of Jesus lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. This is the first resurrection of the just. It's the 3rd phase of the first resurrection, the gleanings of the harvest.

Those who "lived not again" are the lost from the beginning of time until after the 1000 year reign with Christ. If you read on you will see in vs. 11-15 is the Great White throne of judgment where all the lost of all time are judged. Everyone who was not found written in the book of life were cast into the lake of fire. This is the one and only second resurrection of the damned. The last phase of the first resurrection and the second resurrection are separated by one thousand years.

Explain this then:

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV

That strikes out man's theory that the 2nd implied resurrection is about a resurrection of the wicked.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: Charlie24 on Tue Sep 06, 2016 - 06:16:58
I'm sorry dpr, but you need to go back to the scripture and get it right. You have several mistakes in your post. You must understand the facts of scripture before placing a timeline.

The first and second resurrections are separated by 1000 years.

Rev. 20:4-5
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

The bold is telling us that the dead outside of Christ have not been resurrected, but those who had the witness of Jesus lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. This is the first resurrection of the just. It's the 3rd phase of the first resurrection, the gleanings of the harvest.

Those who "lived not again" are the lost from the beginning of time until after the 1000 year reign with Christ. If you read on you will see in vs. 11-15 is the Great White throne of judgment where all the lost of all time are judged. Everyone who was not found written in the book of life were cast into the lake of fire. This is the one and only second resurrection of the damned. The last phase of the first resurrection and the second resurrection are separated by one thousand years.

Explain this then:

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV

That strikes out man's theory that the 2nd implied resurrection is about a resurrection of the wicked.

Paul said there will be two resurrections.

Acts 24:15
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

John explains the resurrections in Rev. 20 as I have shown you.

The second death (Rev. 20:6) is eternal separation from God, and is cast into the lake of fire.

The resurrection of those who take part in the second death takes place in Rev. 20:12-14.

They are resurrected and judged 1000 years after the first resurrection of the just.

Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: dpr on Wed Sep 07, 2016 - 00:20:54

Paul said there will be two resurrections.

Acts 24:15
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

John explains the resurrections in Rev. 20 as I have shown you.

The second death (Rev. 20:6) is eternal separation from God, and is cast into the lake of fire.

The resurrection of those who take part in the second death takes place in Rev. 20:12-14.

They are resurrected and judged 1000 years after the first resurrection of the just.

Explain this then:

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV

That strikes out man's theory that the 2nd implied resurrection is about a resurrection of the wicked.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: Charlie24 on Wed Sep 07, 2016 - 05:40:55

Paul said there will be two resurrections.

Acts 24:15
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

John explains the resurrections in Rev. 20 as I have shown you.

The second death (Rev. 20:6) is eternal separation from God, and is cast into the lake of fire.

The resurrection of those who take part in the second death takes place in Rev. 20:12-14.

They are resurrected and judged 1000 years after the first resurrection of the just.

Explain this then:

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV

That strikes out man's theory that the 2nd implied resurrection is about a resurrection of the wicked.

There is a time when all which are in the graves will hear His voice.

The resurrection of life and the resurrection of damnation.

Count 'em, there's two. Rev. 20 clearly teaches these two resurrections DO NOT take place at the same time.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: dpr on Wed Sep 07, 2016 - 08:11:55

There is a time when all which are in the graves will hear His voice.

The resurrection of life and the resurrection of damnation.

Count 'em, there's two. Rev. 20 clearly teaches these two resurrections DO NOT take place at the same time.

You're not rightly dividing the John 5:28-29 Scripture:

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV

When the Scripture pinpoints to a certain "hour" when ALL in the graves hear His voice, that is a one time event, the event of His coming on the day of The Lord when the last trump sounds:

1 Thess 4:16
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
KJV

1 Cor 15:52
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
KJV


The "dead" of Rev.20:5 who lived not again until the 1,000 years were over... are the saved of the nations that refuse to go against the "camp of the saints" at the end of the 1,000 years.

Rev 20:7-8
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog , to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
KJV

Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: dpr on Wed Sep 07, 2016 - 08:36:17
So there's an obvious problem with ideas of thinking John 5:28-29 is only about those in Christ of the 1st resurrection.

That kind of error in thinking is because of wanting to hold onto a tradition from men, instead of believing God's Word how it's actually written.

One of the reasons for those errors in thinking is from the lack of OT Bible study that many pastors and seminary preachers are still weak in:

This Isaiah 25 Scripture is where Apostle Paul was teaching from in 1 Corinthians 15 about death being swallowed up in victory on the last trump:

[purple]Isa 25:5-9
5 Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low.

6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

7 And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

8 [bold]He will swallow up death in victory[/bold]; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

9 And it shall be said in that day, "Lo, This is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us: This is the LORD; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation."
KJV[/purple]


In verse 7, the "face of the covering" and the "vail" that is spread over all nations is a metaphor for the limitations of this present world. When Jesus comes, the works of of this world will perish in God's consuming fire (end of Hebrews 12; 2 Pet.3:10). The world as we now know it will be changed, and we ourselves also will be changed to the "spiritual body", which is an outward body image likeness of the heavenly dimension. Some brethren still have a very, very hard time understanding this.
[purple]
1 Cor 15:49
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, [bold]we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.[/bold]
KJV
[/purple]

We shall also bear the image of the heavenly, Paul said. The image of the heavenly is a "spiritual body", not a flesh body. And have the wicked today borne the image of the earthy??? Yes, and likewise they also will bear the image of the heavenly.

Having the image of the heavenly is NOT Christ's Salvation. Having the heavenly outward likeness is only one part needed. The other part required is for our soul to be made immortal, because only through Faith on The Father through His Son Jesus Christ can the soul be made immortal. Apostle Paul well covered that point too in 1 Cor.15:53-54, so weren't these doubting brethren paying attention???

To be one of the "dead" during the 1,000 years reign of Christ, it means still having a soul that is liable to perish. It doesn't matter if the unsaved in that time also have the outward bodily heavenly image, their soul will still be in a mortal, liable to die condition, being without Christ and not having been 'born again' of The Spirit. So the real idea of the Rev.20:5 "dead" in that time is about the spiritually dead souls, [bold]and not about the dead still in literal graves.[/bold]



Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: Charlie24 on Wed Sep 07, 2016 - 08:52:37

There is a time when all which are in the graves will hear His voice.

The resurrection of life and the resurrection of damnation.

Count 'em, there's two. Rev. 20 clearly teaches these two resurrections DO NOT take place at the same time.

You're not rightly dividing the John 5:28-29 Scripture:

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV

When the Scripture pinpoints to a certain "hour" when ALL in the graves hear His voice, that is a one time event, the event of His coming on the day of The Lord when the last trump sounds:

1 Thess 4:16
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
KJV

1 Cor 15:52
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
KJV


The "dead" of Rev.20:5 who lived not again until the 1,000 years were over... are the saved of the nations that refuse to go against the "camp of the saints" at the end of the 1,000 years.

Rev 20:7-8
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog , to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
KJV

OK dpr, if you will be patient, I will be patient, until you see what is happening. We will get to Gog and Magog, but first you must see something.

Do you agree that the dead "who lived not again until the 1000 years were finished" is speaking of different resurrection than that of 20:4?
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: dpr on Wed Sep 07, 2016 - 09:07:30

OK dpr, if you will be patient, I will be patient, until you see what is happening. We will get to Gog and Magog, but first you must see something.

Do you agree that the dead "who lived not again until the 1000 years were finished" is speaking of different resurrection than that of 20:4?

I agree the "dead" of Rev.20:5 is a different TYPE of resurrection that happens at the SAME time as the "first resurrection".

That is actually what the John 5:28-29 Scripture by our Lord Jesus is showing us.

Don't think I don't understand the traditional way you are thinking of that, for I do understand that tradition. Yet, it's a tradition that goes against the John 5:28-29 Scripture, and... the Isaiah 25:5-9 Scripture which even fewer brethren have a clue about.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: dpr on Wed Sep 07, 2016 - 09:19:38
Something brethren should think about regarding this matter of the "resurrection of damnation" that Jesus said will occur in that same "hour" all in the graves hear His voice...

When the "first resurrection" is mentioned in Rev.20, what's the significance of that ordinal number "first"? It automatically suggests another 2nd one to follow at minimum.

Hypothetically, if you were told to expect a 'first' car to come around the corner, would you automatically expect to see at least one more car to come? Yes, common sense suggests we expect to see a 2nd car.

Here's the gist of it though. Would you expect to see another 'car' come around that corner, or instead a truck, a bus, a ship, or a plane? You'd expect to see another 'car' since you were told about the 1st car.

Likewise with the 2nd implied resurrection at then end of Christ's 1,000 years reign. It is ANOTHER resurrection of The Just, not the wicked. The wicked dead are raised on the day of Christ's coming. That's why Rev.20 shows you the "dead" stand before the Great White Throne prior... to anything being said about the sea giving up the dead. Check it out.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: Charlie24 on Wed Sep 07, 2016 - 09:19:47

OK dpr, if you will be patient, I will be patient, until you see what is happening. We will get to Gog and Magog, but first you must see something.

Do you agree that the dead "who lived not again until the 1000 years were finished" is speaking of different resurrection than that of 20:4?

I agree the "dead" of Rev.20:5 is a different TYPE of resurrection that happens at the SAME time as the "first resurrection".

That is actually what the John 5:28-29 Scripture by our Lord Jesus is showing us.

Don't think I don't understand the traditional way you are thinking of that, for I do understand that tradition. Yet, it's a tradition that goes against the John 5:28-29 Scripture, and... the Isaiah 25:5-9 Scripture which even fewer brethren have a clue about.

How then do you explain the saved of 20:4 lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years, which is the first resurrection, BUT the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished?

It's impossible for these resurrections to occur at the same time.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: dpr on Wed Sep 07, 2016 - 09:28:35

How then do you explain the saved of 20:4 lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years, which is the first resurrection, BUT the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished?

It's impossible for these resurrections to occur at the same time.

The difference is in how you and I are thinking about that future time of Christ's 1,000 years reign.

I heed the Isaiah 25:5-9 Scripture where Paul was teaching the 'death swallowed up in victory' idea from. That vail shown there God is going to remove is pointing to this fleshy existence of today being removed, not just for His elect, but for all... nations and peoples.

So obviously, I do not believe in the dead-in-the-ground theory of man. Our flesh bodies are cast off at flesh death, and we will never need them again. The concept of the resurrection is about our souls being made immortal through Christ Jesus, and that won't occur until the last day of this world when Jesus comes, i.e., that day when all the graves also will hear His Voice, and go to their specific resurrection TYPE.

This means we all... during Christ's 1,000 years reign, will be in the resurrection body, not flesh bodies. That includes the wicked also, which are those nations dwelling outside the "camp of the saints" on earth per Rev.20, and Zech.14. The difference between them and us, like I have shown, is those spiritually "dead" will still have mortal souls subject to the "second death".
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: dpr on Wed Sep 07, 2016 - 09:40:32
Consider something else about that Millennial time.

If John 5:28-29 didn't exist, and Isaiah 25:5-9 didn't exist, and it is as tradition says the wicked dead aren't raised until after the 1,000 years, then that suggests ONLY those in Christ are in resurrection bodies for that time, and everyone else are still in flesh bodies.

Then in Matt.10:28 when Jesus said don't fear those who can kill the body (flesh), but fear Him Who can destroy both soul and body in hell (geena - lake of fire idea), how is that meant? Think about it. If someone kills a wicked person, their flesh body is dead, going back to the elements of earthly matter per Eccl.12:5-7. Which "body" goes into the "lake of fire" later then if that wicked person still rejects Christ? It's that wicked person's spiritual body with soul that will go into the "lake of fire", not their flesh body.

After God's consuming fire event on the last day of this world, the era of man in a flesh body will be over and no more.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: Charlie24 on Wed Sep 07, 2016 - 09:41:43

How then do you explain the saved of 20:4 lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years, which is the first resurrection, BUT the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished?

It's impossible for these resurrections to occur at the same time.

The difference is in how you and I are thinking about that future time of Christ's 1,000 years reign.

I heed the Isaiah 25:5-9 Scripture where Paul was teaching the 'death swallowed up in victory' idea from. That vail shown there God is going to remove is pointing to this fleshy existence of today being removed, not just for His elect, but for all... nations and peoples.

So obviously, I do not believe in the dead-in-the-ground theory of man. Our flesh bodies are cast off at flesh death, and we will never need them again. The concept of the resurrection is about our souls being made immortal through Christ Jesus, and that won't occur until the last day of this world when Jesus comes, i.e., that day when all the graves also will hear His Voice, and go to their specific resurrection TYPE.

This means we all... during Christ's 1,000 years reign, will be in the resurrection body, not flesh bodies. That includes the wicked also, which are those nations dwelling outside the "camp of the saints" on earth per Rev.20, and Zech.14. The difference between them and us, like I have shown, is those spiritually "dead" will still have mortal souls subject to the "second death".


What is see as literal you see as symbolic or spiritual. I see nothing in John's scripture we are discussing that is anything other than literal. That would be the traditional view.

We have no common ground to discuss this! Two different worlds that can never connect.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: dpr on Wed Sep 07, 2016 - 09:53:48

What is see as literal you see as symbolic or spiritual. I see nothing in John's scripture we are discussing that is anything other than literal. That would be the traditional view.

We have no common ground to discuss this! Two different worlds that can never connect.

No, what I'm saying is very... literal, not any kind of spiritualization or philosophical idea you are suggesting.

John 5:28-29, our Lord Jesus' Own Words, reveals both types of resurrection occur on the same day, at that "hour" all in the graves hear His voice. That is unmistakably the final day of this world when Jesus comes to gather His Church and fight against His enemies.

What you choose to heed is a tradition from men, and that's alright, because this is one of those deeper mysteries in God's Word not everyone is given to understand.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: Charlie24 on Wed Sep 07, 2016 - 09:59:00
Consider something else about that Millennial time.

If John 5:28-29 didn't exist, and Isaiah 25:5-9 didn't exist, and it is as tradition says the wicked dead aren't raised until after the 1,000 years, then that suggests ONLY those in Christ are in resurrection bodies for that time, and everyone else are still in flesh bodies.

Then in Matt.10:28 when Jesus said don't fear those who can kill the body (flesh), but fear Him Who can destroy both soul and body in hell (geena - lake of fire idea), how is that meant? Think about it. If someone kills a wicked person, their flesh body is dead, going back to the elements of earthly matter per Eccl.12:5-7. Which "body" goes into the "lake of fire" later then if that wicked person still rejects Christ? It's that wicked person's spiritual body with soul that will go into the "lake of fire", not their flesh body.

After God's consuming fire event on the last day of this world, the era of man in a flesh body will be over and no more.

The glorified body or the resurrected body is indestructable. It's the body that Jesus had after the resurrection, a glorified body that all will have whether with Christ or in hell. It's flesh and bone that can walk through walls and disapear here and show up somewhere else, unless that person finds themselves in hell.

I read the scripture literally unless it becomes obvious that it's symbolic. You will find that less speculation is needed to make the dots connect.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: Charlie24 on Wed Sep 07, 2016 - 10:09:33

What is see as literal you see as symbolic or spiritual. I see nothing in John's scripture we are discussing that is anything other than literal. That would be the traditional view.

We have no common ground to discuss this! Two different worlds that can never connect.

No, what I'm saying is very... literal, not any kind of spiritualization or philosophical idea you are suggesting.

John 5:28-29, our Lord Jesus' Own Words, reveals both types of resurrection occur on the same day, at that "hour" all in the graves hear His voice. That is unmistakably the final day of this world when Jesus comes to gather His Church and fight against His enemies.

What you choose to heed is a tradition from men, and that's alright, because this is one of those deeper mysteries in God's Word not everyone is given to understand.

No, I don't think so. You clearly made the literal dead of 20:5 a spiritual dead because you couldn't answer the question I asked without making that change.

The saved of 20:4 did not receive the mark of the beast in their foreheads, they were beheaded, that is clearly literal.

But the very next sentence, the dead that lived not again is a spiritual death according to you. I don't think so!
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: dpr on Wed Sep 07, 2016 - 10:45:31

The glorified body or the resurrected body is indestructable. It's the body that Jesus had after the resurrection, a glorified body that all will have whether with Christ or in hell. It's flesh and bone that can walk through walls and disapear here and show up somewhere else, unless that person finds themselves in hell.

I read the scripture literally unless it becomes obvious that it's symbolic. You will find that less speculation is needed to make the dots connect.

Well, the "spiritual body" we will have per Apostle Paul will not be exactly like our Lord Jesus' resurrected body. Remember His Body was transfigured to the resurrection, as His flesh body was not found, and His resurrection body retained the marks of His crucifixion.

Our resurrection body will be a simple putting off of our flesh body.

The resurrection body, or "spiritual body" or "image of the heavenly" as Paul called it, is a body of spirit, not flesh and bone:

1 Cor 15:50
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

Again, I don't know why you continue to try and suggestion I'm speculating on this, as you're simply not able to prove anything by that kind of statement. I'm giving you Scripture proof in my posts, and as with most on these kind of forums, you refuse to address them, and instead just add your own reasoning outside the actual context of Scripture, which is speculation.

The John 5:28-29 Scripture, again:

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV

Breaking the phrases down:


"for the hour is coming"
- when an hour is mentioned in God's Word, it means a very specific point in time. And it indeed is hour in the Greek NT manuscripts also. So it's not talking about two separate times. It's pointing to ONE specific time, a certain 'hour' of a certain 24 hour day.


"all that are in the graves shall hear His voice" - does that say 'some' in the graves will hear His voice while others will not? Nope! It says "all in the graves". And the Greek word for "all" there means 'the whole'.


"And shall come forth" - does that say only 'some' shall come forth? No, it is pointing back to that "all" shall come forth.


"they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life" - those who have done good go to the resurrection of life. That's those in Christ Jesus.


"they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation"
- these are the wicked dead that are raised. These are part of that "all" that hear His voice in that specific "hour".

What "hour" is that?:

Isa 26:19
19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
KJV

John 6:39
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
KJV

1 Cor 15:22
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
KJV

1 Thess 4:16
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
KJV
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: dpr on Wed Sep 07, 2016 - 11:03:16

No, I don't think so. You clearly made the literal dead of 20:5 a spiritual dead because you couldn't answer the question I asked without making that change.

The saved of 20:4 did not receive the mark of the beast in their foreheads, they were beheaded, that is clearly literal.

But the very next sentence, the dead that lived not again is a spiritual death according to you. I don't think so!

I didn't make any 'change'. And the idea of 'spiritually' dead is a literal meaning involving the state of one's soul, the "this mortal" part Paul was talking about in 1 Cor.15.

1 Cor 15:53
3 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
KJV

If you go into the Greek NT with that, you'll find it's 4 different Greek words, with 4 different meanings.

If you had understood about the idea from Jesus in John 3 about being "born again", then you should have understood what I was talking about.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: Stranger on Thu Sep 08, 2016 - 05:38:04
I hold to the pre-trib rapture.

If one holds to the post-trib rapture, then you need not look for the Lords return.  You look for the Tribulation.  Because it will be seven years before the rapture.

If one says, we won't know when the Tribulation begins, then it doesn't matter whether one is pre, mid, or post. 

Stranger
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: dpr on Sat Sep 10, 2016 - 09:04:21
I hold to the pre-trib rapture.

If one holds to the post-trib rapture, then you need not look for the Lords return.  You look for the Tribulation.  Because it will be seven years before the rapture.

If one says, we won't know when the Tribulation begins, then it doesn't matter whether one is pre, mid, or post. 

Stranger

Sorry, but that just doesn't make sense. The Pre-trib Rapture theory is about a rapture PRIOR to the tribulation of 7 years.

It's not a Biblical doctrine anyway. It's just a theory from men, started in 1830's Great Britain by the Irvingites and John Darby and the Brethren movement.

Our Lord Jesus taught that if the goodman of the house knew in what 'watch' the thief would come, then he wouldn't have allowed his house to be broken into (Matt.24). His Message is that we are to be on watch all the way up to the time of His 2nd coming, even though we don't know that day or hour.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: Stranger on Sat Sep 10, 2016 - 11:38:57
dpr

But I said post-trib, concerning not needing to look for the Lords return.  Makes sense to me.

Yes, we need to always be watching.  But, if post-trib, or mid-trib for that matter, is correct, then we need only look first for the Tribulation.

Stranger





Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: dpr on Sun Sep 11, 2016 - 10:45:28
dpr

But I said post-trib, concerning not needing to look for the Lords return.  Makes sense to me.

Yes, we need to always be watching.  But, if post-trib, or mid-trib for that matter, is correct, then we need only look first for the Tribulation.

Stranger

We are to be watching all... the way up to Christ's return. And for post-trib, that means all the way through the tribulation to its ending on the day Jesus comes. We simply do not know that exact day or hour, but we have been given the times and the seasons, which is something Paul was preaching in 1 Thess.5.

When Jesus said if the goodman of the house knew in what watch the thief comes, then he wouldn't have allowed his house to be broken into. That is pointing to our need to be on watch (a watch was a period of 4 hrs., 3 watches in the night). Not only that but we are to be giving meat in due season, which is a metaphor for helping to prepare His sheep to watch also.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: Stranger on Sun Sep 11, 2016 - 14:57:34
dpr

Yes, I know we are to be watching.  But why watch if the Tribulation is going to happen first?  We know the Tribulation lasts 7 years.  So, when it starts we still got 7 years.  Or, 3 and a half, depending on your position.

Stranger

Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: Rella on Sun Sep 11, 2016 - 18:35:52
dpr

Yes, I know we are to be watching.  But why watch if the Tribulation is going to happen first?  We know the Tribulation lasts 7 years.  So, when it starts we still got 7 years.  Or, 3 and a half, depending on your position.

Stranger

Because you will not know it is the Tribulation until it is really bad. It will most likely sneak slowly upon us, starting with such mundane things as the demoralizing of mankind though the likes of LGBTA agenda's and others.

In otherwords, as Jesus will come as a thief in the night... I believe so will the Tribulation and we won't know when the true beginning began.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: Stranger on Sun Sep 11, 2016 - 19:06:46
Rella

If that is true, then it really doesn't matter if one is pre, mid, or post.  If we can't know when it starts, there is no way to distinguish pre, mid, or post.   If you say, when Jesus returns we know its over, that doesn't explain the many times the time element of 7 years is given for the Tribulation and the time element of 3 and one half years for the middle of the Tribulation. 

Don't you think those time periods will be important to the believers on the earth at that time?   But if there is not knowledge of a starting point, they don't matter at all.

God didn't give the numbers for His benefit.  He always knows.  Why would He give us such numbers if they don't mean anything?  And how can they mean anything if we don't have a starting point?

Stranger
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: Star of David on Sun Sep 11, 2016 - 21:31:17
I personally think that God is amused by all of these fanciful concoctions on the part of human beings who think that they can lay out an elaborate End Times scenario consisting of a Rapture, Seven Years of Tribulation (or 3 1/2 Years of Tribulation), Antichrist, Armageddon, '666', Mark of the Beast, etc., etc.

Especially when none of the above God has planned for, at all, during the years leading up to Christ's return to earth.

God had a similar laugh 2,000 years ago when the Jewish religious leaders took the messianic prophecies and fancied that the Messiah would be a powerful Jewish warrior who would liberate Israel from the domination of Rome. Instead, God had much different plans for His Messiah.

2,000 years later, it will now be the Christian religious leaders who will have egg on their collective faces.

Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: chosenone on Sun Sep 11, 2016 - 22:37:49

I personally think that God is amused by all of these fanciful concoctions on the part of human beings who think that they can lay out an elaborate End Times scenario consisting of a Rapture, Seven Years of Tribulation (or 3 1/2 Years of Tribulation), Antichrist, Armageddon, '666', Mark of the Beast, etc., etc.

Especially when none of the above God has planned for, at all, during the years leading up to Christ's return to earth.
 

It seems that everyone thinks differently about this, and everyone thinks they are right. ::shrug::
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: Star of David on Mon Sep 12, 2016 - 01:45:06

I personally think that God is amused by all of these fanciful concoctions on the part of human beings who think that they can lay out an elaborate End Times scenario consisting of a Rapture, Seven Years of Tribulation (or 3 1/2 Years of Tribulation), Antichrist, Armageddon, '666', Mark of the Beast, etc., etc.

Especially when none of the above God has planned for, at all, during the years leading up to Christ's return to earth.
 

It seems that everyone thinks differently about this, and everyone thinks they are right. ::shrug::

chosenone, I amended my post to add the following to it:


God had a similar laugh 2,000 years ago when the Jewish religious leaders took the messianic prophecies and fancied that the Messiah would be a powerful Jewish warrior who would liberate Israel from the domination of Rome. Instead, God had much different plans for His Messiah.

2,000 years later, it will now be the Christian religious leaders who will have egg on their collective faces.


Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: RB on Mon Sep 12, 2016 - 03:23:46
Because you will not know it is the Tribulation until it is really bad. It will most likely sneak slowly upon us, starting with such mundane things as the demoralizing of mankind though the likes of LGBTA agenda's and others. In otherwords, as Jesus will come as a thief in the night... I believe so will the Tribulation and we won't know when the true beginning began.
This is true, very true. The spiritul tribulation as prophesied by Daniel, Christ, Paul and John, all happens WHILE the church is still in the earth, and the beast WILL make war with the chosen seed and OVERCOME THEM and drive them from the temple of God, where the generation of serpents will set up and rule therein. The GRADUAL process started in and around early 1800 hundred when this world was flooded with MANY false cults~to just name a few....Mormonism, SDA, Jehovah Witnesses, Christian Science, and such likes, and a little later, Pentecosts/and other charismatic type followers, etc.; to go along with the many already here in great numbers...RCC, EOC, etc. This just did not happen ALL at once. SOD said: 
Quote
I personally think that God is amused by all of these fanciful concoctions on the part of human beings who think that they can lay out an elaborate End Times scenario consisting of a Rapture, Seven Years of Tribulation (or 3 1/2 Years of Tribulation), Antichrist, Armageddon, '666', Mark of the Beast, etc., etc. Especially when none of the above God has planned for, at all, during the years leading up to Christ's return to earth.God had a similar laugh 2,000 years ago when the Jewish religious leaders took the messianic prophecies and fancied that the Messiah would be a powerful Jewish warrior who would liberate Israel from the domination of Rome. Instead, God had much different plans for His Messiah. 2,000 years later, it will now be the Christian religious leaders who will have egg on their collective faces.
Actually, these words are also very true, it's sad that the rest of your overall understanding is off, and I truly mean that. Stranger said:
Quote
If that is true, then it really doesn't matter if one is pre, mid, or post.  If we can't know when it starts, there is no way to distinguish pre, mid, or post.
Why not? BY following the scriptures and teaching that the Antichrist, man of sin, the abomination of desolation, perilous times, great falling away shall come FIRST, before Jesus Christ return to gathered together HIS ELECT/CHURCH  is clearly separating one's eschatology into a school of thought~while it is very true, that even among the different schools of thoughts, there are differences of understanding, nevertheless, EVERYONE'S position on these things, will put you into one of the three schools.  Chosenone said:
Quote
It seems that everyone thinks differently about this, and everyone thinks they are right. ::shrug::
Nothing new under the sun, the point is that truth will prevail over error~Christ and Paul both warned us that many will be deceived during this time at the end of the world OVER these very truths. Matthew 24:4; 2nd Thessalonians 2:3. Stranger said:
Quote
We know the Tribulation lasts 7 years.  So, when it starts we still got 7 years.  Or, 3 and a half, depending on your position.
That's not correct. You have been taught that but will not find support from Daniel 7-12; Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 21; 2nd Thessalonians 2; 2nd Timothy 3:1-4:5; 1st John 2; and especially  Revelation, the main book that you think you will find support, will not support such a theory, and a man made theory it is.   
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: Stranger on Mon Sep 12, 2016 - 05:44:10
RB

You ask me "Why Not?"  in your reply #47.

Because the topic is 'where do you stand on the pretribulation rapture'  And the terms pre, mid, and post are based on the Tribulation.  If you don't have a starting point, you can't know the pre, mid, or post. 

Yes I know there are differing schools of thought concerning this.  And you list many things that come 'first'.  You believe the word 'first' there means first, don't you?    Yet the words 'seven' and 'three and a half' don't mean 'seven' or 'three and a half'?

What I can tell of your position is that there is no pre, mid, or post rapture.  You just have the second coming of Christ. 

Stranger
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: RB on Mon Sep 12, 2016 - 16:14:22
What I can tell of your position is that there is no pre, mid, or post rapture.  You just have the second coming of Christ. 
I'm post~yes, I do believe that we which are alive and remain shall be caught to meet the Lord in the air, and will come immediately back with him and destroy his enemies, and then the great white throne judgment  shall begin. That's the order given to us from Christ, Paul and John. I believe in a rapture (catching up) but not in the way that the pre-mill teach.
Quote
Revelation 11:12~"And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them."
It will not be a "secret rapture" as so many teach! 
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: Stranger on Mon Sep 12, 2016 - 16:52:23
RB

So why does 'first' mean first.   But 'seven and three and a half' doesn't mean 'seven or three and a half'?

What is the purpose of the rapture if we just do an immediate U turn?   

Stranger
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: notreligus on Wed Sep 14, 2016 - 10:38:19
Unknowingly or otherwise, when you hold to a belief in a pre-tribulation rapture you are...

1. Rejecting the central figure of the Scriptures, Jesus, and you are rejecting the central theme of the Scriptures which is the restoration of mankind back to a right relationship with God Almighty.

2. Rejecting the Gospel and the Gospel was first proclaimed in Genesis 3:15.

3. Rejecting that God's covering of Adam and Eve's sin was pointing to Jesus whose blood would be the covering and price paid for all of humanity's sin.

4. Rejecting the Book of Hebrews and ignoring the theme of Hebrews that Jesus is better than Moses and the Law.

5. Rejecting the Book of Romans message that neither Jew nor Gentile have a favored position in Christ, and you are also rejecting the message of Ephesians that One New Man has been created in Christ Jesus.   

6. Asserting that the Hebrews have a superior position and Gentiles will be secondary and essentially in a servant's position to them under the Law and with worship resumed in a new Temple,  where animal sacrifices will have been restored.    Christ's reconciliation of humanity will have been rendered ineffective and the Law which brings condemnation will again be in place for one thousand years during a temporary earthly kingdom on an Earth that is still cursed and unrestored.   

Literal fulfillment?   There is no more literal fulfillment than how Jesus Himself has already fulfilled the major prophecies that the early rapture proponents are still looking to have fulfillment in the future.     
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: Stranger on Wed Sep 14, 2016 - 11:45:37
notreligious

Well, I am pre-trib and I knowingly reject all 6 of your statements.  You might explain how being pre-trib rejects and asserts the things you have said.

Stranger
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: dpr on Sun Sep 25, 2016 - 20:02:00
dpr

Yes, I know we are to be watching.  But why watch if the Tribulation is going to happen first?  We know the Tribulation lasts 7 years.  So, when it starts we still got 7 years.  Or, 3 and a half, depending on your position.

Stranger

Because in Matt.24 Jesus said He shortened the time for His elect's sake (which is about the latter part of the trib when the false Christ shows up). Do you know what that shortened time is for the end? If you are paying attention to the times and the seasons for the end, then you should know that. It's given in Rev.9.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: dpr on Sun Sep 25, 2016 - 20:07:55

Because you will not know it is the Tribulation until it is really bad. It will most likely sneak slowly upon us, starting with such mundane things as the demoralizing of mankind though the likes of LGBTA agenda's and others.

In otherwords, as Jesus will come as a thief in the night... I believe so will the Tribulation and we won't know when the true beginning began.

I think it is definitely possible to know when it starts; when the first 1260 is over also, per the Books of Daniel, Revelation, and Jesus' Olivet discourse.

Jesus will come as a thief on the day of The Lord; that's what He and Apostles Paul and Peter revealed (Rev.16:15; 1 Thess.5; 2 Pet.3:10). That day of The Lord is the final day of this world, i.e., the final 7th Vial, and the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe.

Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: Stranger on Sun Sep 25, 2016 - 21:15:50
dpr

Concerning your reply # 53:  So what?  It doesn't matter if the time is shortened.   What matters is that the Tribulation is going to occur first.

Stranger 

Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: Stranger on Mon Sep 26, 2016 - 05:19:03
dpr

My point is that if you say the Tribulation comes before the rapture,, then why watch for Christ?   Just watch for the Tribulation. 

Stranger
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: dpr on Mon Sep 26, 2016 - 09:44:42
dpr

My point is that if you say the Tribulation comes before the rapture,, then why watch for Christ?   Just watch for the Tribulation. 

Stranger

Watching for the signs of the end Jesus gave us is to be watching for His coming.

It's those who think to be raptured prior to the trib that are taught they have no need to watch. Our Lord Jesus commanded us to 'watch', so there's another point.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: Stranger on Mon Sep 26, 2016 - 11:30:16
dpr

Are you calling the Tribulation the signs of the end because you don't know when the Tribulation will start?   If the Tribulation lasts seven years, then I need not watch for Christ.   

I don't understand why the pre-trib rapture means we don't need to watch.  If it comes prior to the Tribulation then it can come at anytime. 

Yes Christ did command us to watch.  And that was based on us not knowing the time.  Which only the pre-trib belief allows.

Stranger




Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: dpr on Wed Sep 28, 2016 - 12:08:00
dpr

Are you calling the Tribulation the signs of the end because you don't know when the Tribulation will start?   If the Tribulation lasts seven years, then I need not watch for Christ.   

I don't understand why the pre-trib rapture means we don't need to watch.  If it comes prior to the Tribulation then it can come at anytime. 

Yes Christ did command us to watch.  And that was based on us not knowing the time.  Which only the pre-trib belief allows.

Stranger

Something has you confused. Those on the Pre-trib Rapture are told they have no need to watch because they say Christ's coming can be 'at any moment'. That's why that doctrine is also called by that nickname, the "Any Moment" doctrine by critics. I agree with that nickname, basically what they are preaching. But they don't follow Bible Scripture close enough.

For example, they will use Paul's "thief in the night" idea to preach that 'any moment' idea. Yet they will totally discard Rev.16:15 on the 6th Vial where Jesus said He comes "as a thief", and the next event is His gathering of His enemies at the battle of Armageddon on the final 7th Vial.

Likewise in Rev.3:3 to the Church at Sardis Jesus warned them that if they did not watch then He would come upon them "as a thief" and they would not know in what "hour" He would come upon them.

In 1 Thess.5 Apostle Paul said the "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night". He then said to the brethren there that day was not to overtake them "as a thief" (1 Thess.5:2-4).

So what gives? Jesus said no man knows the day or the hour of His coming. But in Rev.3:3 He gave us an example that we are to be watching to know the hour of His coming. Paul basically says the same thing, because that "day of the Lord" event is the final day of this world, first given through the OT prophets (especially in Isaiah).

The 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe represents that day also, because when that final trumpet blows Rev.11 shows all the kingdoms of this world become those of The Father and The Son. We are shown that 7th Trumpet blows 3.5 days prior to God's two witnesses being killed with their dead bodies left laying in the street of Jerusalem.

Thing is, no man knows when that 7th Trumpet is going to blow. Based on events today, it could be next year, or it could be ten years, or fifty years from now. We can only know that when God's two witnesses of Rev.11 are killed with their dead bodies left laying the street of Jerusalem for 3.5 days, then in that... "hour" we may expect Lord Jesus' 2nd coming to gather His Church and fight the battle of Armageddon. And that battle will be over at an instant. So there's you a sign Jesus gave His. Who will you listen to though, Him or men's doctrines like the Pre-trib Rapture theory?
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: Stranger on Wed Sep 28, 2016 - 13:42:10
dpr

Concerning your reply # 59

I am pre-trib and I don't ever remember anyone telling me I have no need to watch.  The rapture can occur at anytime, which leads one to want to be in a right walk and relationship with Christ.  And I'm not claiming to live up to that by the way.  But I should.

Paul's use of 'thief in the night' in Thessalonians speaks to the Day of the Lord.  Not the rapture.  As does Rev.16:15.  I see no problem. 

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. The Day of the Lord is not the rapture.

Of course you don't know when the 7th trumpet is going to blow. Because you don't know when the Tribulation starts.  Which means of course,  being pre or mid trib is meaningless.   

It's easy to say of another's doctrine that it is 'men's doctrine' and not true.  It becomes harder to prove it.

Stranger
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: dpr on Thu Sep 29, 2016 - 11:28:11
dpr

Concerning your reply # 59

I am pre-trib and I don't ever remember anyone telling me I have no need to watch.  The rapture can occur at anytime, which leads one to want to be in a right walk and relationship with Christ.  And I'm not claiming to live up to that by the way.  But I should.

I figured you were pre-trib.

If the pre-trib preachers aren't preaching we don't have to watch anymore today, they used to. I've noticed the pre-trib rapture theory changing some principles even within my lifetime. John Darby in the 1830's originally taught that it would be a secret rapture, which idea is not written either.

Quote
Paul's use of 'thief in the night' in Thessalonians speaks to the Day of the Lord.  Not the rapture.  As does Rev.16:15.  I see no problem. 

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. The Day of the Lord is not the rapture.


Actually, the "day of the Lord" event is... when Jesus comes to gather His Church. It's the last day of this world, the time when Jesus will gather the resurrected "asleep" saints, and then those of us alive on earth.

The latest I've heard pre-trib preach on the timing of the "day of the Lord" is that it starts at the beginning of the trib and flows through it to the end. Not so per God's Word:

Isa 13:6-11
6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
KJV

Joel 1:15
15 Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.
KJV

Joel 3:14-17
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
KJV

Obad 15-17
15 For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.
16 For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.
17 But upon mount Zion shall be deliverance, and there shall be holiness; and the house of Jacob shall possess their possessions.
KJV


The "day of the Lord" is to happen suddenly, at an instant:

Isa 29:5-7
5 Moreover the multitude of thy strangers shall be like small dust, and the multitude of the terrible ones shall be as chaff that passeth away: yea, it shall be at an instant suddenly.

6 Thou shalt be visited of the LORD of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake, and great noise, with storm and tempest, and the flame of devouring fire.

7 And the multitude of all the nations that fight against Ariel, even all that fight against her and her munition, and that distress her, shall be as a dream of a night vision.
KJV


That is what Apostle Paul was talking about in 1 Thess.5 when he foretold about the deceived who will be saying, "Peace and safety". He said when they begin saying that, that's when "sudden destruction" will come upon them. That's the "day of the Lord" event of God's cup of Wrath being poured out upon the earth on the LAST day. It will END the tribulation, not start it. And at an instant suddenly is where the "as a thief in the night" idea comes from. Paul was teaching that from the OT prophets, like those Scriptures I posted above.

The wrath Paul was speaking of in 1 Thess.5 is this specific wrath from God on the very last day of this world to end the tribulation by the wicked.


Quote
Of course you don't know when the 7th trumpet is going to blow. Because you don't know when the Tribulation starts.  Which means of course,  being pre or mid trib is meaningless. 

Right on your first statements, but not your last one. I'll explain the difference in another post below.

 
Quote
It's easy to say of another's doctrine that it is 'men's doctrine' and not true.  It becomes harder to prove it.

Stranger

Proving Darby's pre-trib rapture is wrong isn't difficult as long one sticks to written Scripture. What's difficult is trying to remove the blinders the doctrine places on its adherents that gets them away from the Scriptures, like the OT Scriptures about the day of the Lord that I posted which clearly show it's a certain day of God's Wrath upon the wicked, and not upon His people.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: dpr on Thu Sep 29, 2016 - 12:12:01
The difference between pre-trib, mid-trib, and post-trib views will determine whether or not the believer is prepared to make a stand for Jesus in the last days.


The Main Event For The End:


I'll assume all of those 3 views understands Bible prophecy about the coming false one foretold of in the Book of Daniel, in our Lord Jesus' Olivet discourse (Matt.24; Mark 13; Luke 21), by Paul in 2 Thess.2:1-9, and through John in Rev.12 & 13. All 3 views do recognize that coming false one (Antichrist), the main difference being when Jesus raptures His Church.

1. Pre-Trib:
The pre-trib rapture position doesn't prepare one to make a stand for Jesus during the trib, because it teaches Jesus will come prior to the trib to rapture the Church. But no such event is written for that happening prior to the trib; the doctrine has misinterpreted the events of Scripture (like that "day of the Lord" I mentioned in my previous post). These will not... be prepared to make a stand for Jesus when the pseudo-Christ/Antichrist shows up on earth working great signs and wonders that will cause them to mistake that fake for our Lord Jesus.

(Our Lord Jesus showed us already to what level of the power of deception the coming Antichrist is going to work. When He said that if it were possible, even His very elect would be deceived by that false one doing great signs and wonders, that shows how tempting the Antichrist is going to be upon the whole world leading to thinking he is God on earth (in our case, like Jesus on earth). This is a very important point our Lord Jesus wanted us to understand. The coming Antichrist is not going to simply be some flesh man throwing mystic powder up in the sky like a pagan shaman. The Antichrist is coming with the power of a god, working miracles. So it will be very tempting to think that's our Lord Jesus if you don't understand the signs and the seasons for the end our Lord Jesus and His Apostles gave us.)

2. Mid-Trib:
Mid-trib teaches Jesus comes to rapture His Church in the middle of Daniel's symbolic "one week" of Dan.9:27. That means after the first 1260 days of the seven years "one week". Per Dan.9, that's also when the pseudo-Christ/Antichrist shows up to end sacrifices in Jerusalem that will going on, and instead places the Rev.13 "image of the beast" idol for false worship instead. They see the latter 1260 days of the Daniel timeline as the actual time of the tribulation (which is technically true).

Nevertheless, the coming false one shows up after the first 1260 days period per Daniel, and sets up false worship of himself like Paul showed in 2 Thess.2:4. Since Jesus does not actually come to rapture the Church until the end of the trib, these also are likely to be deceived by the coming pseudo-Christ into thinking he is our Lord Jesus.


3. Post-Trib:
This is the actual view of the end God's Word teaches; Jesus comes to gather His Church on the last day of this world, which ends the tribulation by the wicked and burns man's works off the earth. Some may not like that statement because of the veils upon them, but all will eventually discover this fact as the end progresses. These will not be deceived, as they have been given to know the events leading up to our Lord Jesus' second coming to gather His Church. These know Jesus comes only one time at the end of this world, and not two or three or more comings. These will not be deceived by the coming pseudo-Christ because they know to wait for Jesus' coming to destroy that Wicked one.

Our Lord Jesus in Matt.24 and Mark 13 was teaching 7 SIGNS of the end which parallel the events and order of the Seals of Rev.6. The final sign He gave was that of His coming and gathering of His saints, both those from Heaven, and those from the earth. The two examples of that in Matt.24 and Mark 13 directly parallel the events of 1 Thess.4 by Apostle Paul.

Zechariah 14 and Acts 1 reveals our Lord Jesus when He comes, He will return to the Mount of Olives where He ascended to Heaven from. Zechariah 14 gives the timing of that on the "day of the Lord". That is the same timing of 1 Thess.4 & 5. It is the same timing of the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe, and the 7th Vial of Rev.16. It is the final battle of Armageddon when Jesus comes to fight against the nations gathered around Jerusalem. It is the battle of Hamongog of Ezekiel 38 & 39 when the armies out of the northern quarters come upon Israel on the last day of this world.

It is the day when God's consuming fire will burn man's works off this earth:

2 Peter 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
KJV


In essence, any doctrine that teaches to believe Jesus will come to gather us prior to the final day of this world, is false, and can place the believer in danger of worshiping the pseudo-Christ that is to come first.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: Stranger on Thu Sep 29, 2016 - 13:33:29
dpr

Concerning your reply #61.

You didn't have to figure.  I have said it several times. 

Again, The Day of the Lord is not the Rapture.  I don't see anything in the verses you gave to indicate otherwise.  There is nothing in Isaiah, Joel, or Obadiah to indicate that the Day of the Lord is the Rapture.

And, I never said Paul doesn't speak about the Day of the Lord.  But the Day of the Lord is not the Rapture.

Again, I agree with 2Peter 3:10.  But the Day of the Lord is not the rapture.

Stranger

Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: dpr on Fri Sep 30, 2016 - 00:27:25
dpr

Concerning your reply #61.

You didn't have to figure.  I have said it several times. 

I didn't read it in your post, as I've not read all your posts on the forum.


Quote
Again, The Day of the Lord is not the Rapture.  I don't see anything in the verses you gave to indicate otherwise.  There is nothing in Isaiah, Joel, or Obadiah to indicate that the Day of the Lord is the Rapture.

The "day of the Lord" is... the time of the rapture of Christ's Church with Jesus coming in the clouds. Our Lord Jesus, Paul and Peter established it as fact:

1. In Revelation 16:15, on the 6th Vial timing, our Lord Jesus said He comes "as a thief". He issues a warning to His Church with that, telling them to be careful to keep their garments lest they walk naked and in shame. Then the next event is His gathering the nations to battle at Armageddon with the 7th Vial poured out, which is the LAST day of this world, i.e., the "day of the Lord".

2. In 1 Thess.5, Apostle Paul taught the "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night". Peter in 2 Pet. 3:10 said the same thing. Our Lord Jesus said He comes "as a thief", which is a direct... link to the "day of the Lord"!

By that I have just prove BY the Scriptures of God's Word, that Jesus comes "as a thief" on the "day of the Lord".

3. In 2 Thess.2:1-9, Apostle Paul taught that before Jesus comes and our gathering to Him can happen, a great falling away (apostasy) must occur first, and that Wicked one must come exalting himself as God in Jerusalem in the temple of God. Just that is enough to prove the great tribulation timing must occur prior to our Lord's return to gather us.

4. in Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, Jesus showed that He comes in the clouds to gather His Church AFTER the tribulation.

God's Word shows the "day of the Lord" is when Jesus comes to gather His Church, just as the OT prophets agree also as I have shown in my above posts.

Therefore, I must respectfully declare that you are in denial of the Scriptures on those things.

Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: dpr on Fri Sep 30, 2016 - 00:50:32
Now what is truly 'strange' brethren, is that many like Stranger today that are on man's Pre-trib Rapture doctrine, are apparently not aware how the pre-trib rapture theory has traditionally taught that Jesus will come "as a thief in the night", and to be ready for His coming to rapture them to Heaven!!!

Let's look again brethren, to see when... that "as a thief in the night" timing is per God's Word:

2 Peter 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
KJV

There it is; "the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night".

Pre-trib traditionally taught that Jesus comes to gather them "as a thief in the night", and they taught that could happen at 'any moment'. That's where they even got... that idea of any moment, i.e., from that "as a thief in the night" metaphor in God's Word! But now... they reject that traditional teaching????

Yes, they apparently now reject that Jesus comes "as a thief in the night", even when our Lord Jesus Himself declared emphatically that He comes "as a thief"!!!

Rev 16:15-17
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
KJV


If their denial of that timing when Jesus comes on the "day of the Lord" "as a thief" isn't bad enough, their wicked twisting of the 1 Thess.4 Scripture is even worse.

NOWHERE in 1 Thess.4 does it declare our Lord Jesus comes to rapture us out prior to the tribulation, nowhere.

But I'll bet you didn't know brethren, that 1 Thess.4 DOES declare Jesus comes to gather His Church on the LAST DAY of this world, which is when the "day of the Lord" is to occur:

1 Thess 4:13-14
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
KJV

1 Thess 4:16-17
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV


Jesus brings the "asleep" saints from Heaven with Him when He comes to gather His Church. That's when that event is of the dead in Christ rising first. That's the resurrection of those being raised on the LAST DAY of this world! That means it's impossible for that resurrection to point to any other time than the final day of this world!

Those in Christ on earth will not precede ("prevent" in verse 15) the "asleep" saints:

1 Thess 4:15
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
KJV

That word "prevent" there is Greek phthano, meaning 'anticipate or precede, or go beforehand' (Strong's 5348). Check it out for yourself if you don't believe me. Look in Strong's Exhaustive Concordance.

It means those of us still alive on earth when Jesus comes cannot precede to Heaven the "asleep" saints which must be resurrected on the day of Jesus' coming! The resurrection of the dead happens first, is what He showed. Likewise in John 5:28-29 is another witness of the resurrection happening on the day of His coming when final trump (7th trumpet) sounds.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: Stranger on Fri Sep 30, 2016 - 06:23:32

The "day of the Lord" is... the time of the rapture of Christ's Church with Jesus coming in the clouds. Our Lord Jesus, Paul and Peter established it as fact:

1. In Revelation 16:15, on the 6th Vial timing, our Lord Jesus said He comes "as a thief". He issues a warning to His Church with that, telling them to be careful to keep their garments lest they walk naked and in shame. Then the next event is His gathering the nations to battle at Armageddon with the 7th Vial poured out, which is the LAST day of this world, i.e., the "day of the Lord".

2. In 1 Thess.5, Apostle Paul taught the "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night". Peter in 2 Pet. 3:10 said the same thing. Our Lord Jesus said He comes "as a thief", which is a direct... link to the "day of the Lord"!

By that I have just prove BY the Scriptures of God's Word, that Jesus comes "as a thief" on the "day of the Lord".

3. In 2 Thess.2:1-9, Apostle Paul taught that before Jesus comes and our gathering to Him can happen, a great falling away (apostasy) must occur first, and that Wicked one must come exalting himself as God in Jerusalem in the temple of God. Just that is enough to prove the great tribulation timing must occur prior to our Lord's return to gather us.

4. in Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, Jesus showed that He comes in the clouds to gather His Church AFTER the tribulation.

God's Word shows the "day of the Lord" is when Jesus comes to gather His Church, just as the OT prophets agree also as I have shown in my above posts.

Therefore, I must respectfully declare that you are in denial of the Scriptures on those things.

As I said, The Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night.  What you are identifying in the verses you gave is the Second Coming of Christ.   This does begin The Day of the Lord. 

But Christ's second coming is not the rapture of the Church.

Stranger
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: dpr on Fri Sep 30, 2016 - 09:44:28


As I said, The Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night.  What you are identifying in the verses you gave is the Second Coming of Christ.   This does begin The Day of the Lord. 

But Christ's second coming is not the rapture of the Church.

Stranger

Well, Jesus said He comes "as a thief", which is the timing that the Pre-trib Rapture has traditionally preached is when He gathers His Church. And per Scripture, that timing is ... the "day of the Lord" timing.

Either you don't really know what all the Pre-trib Rapture theory teaches, or you just like to contradict yourself.

The rapture of the Church by Jesus' 2nd coming is on the "day of the Lord", which is the last day of this world. That is when the resurrection is, and not before.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: Stranger on Fri Sep 30, 2016 - 09:51:42

Well, Jesus said He comes "as a thief", which is the timing that the Pre-trib Rapture has traditionally preached is when He gathers His Church. And per Scripture, that timing is ... the "day of the Lord" timing.

Either you don't really know what all the Pre-trib Rapture theory teaches, or you just like to contradict yourself.

The rapture of the Church by Jesus' 2nd coming is on the "day of the Lord", which is the last day of this world. That is when the resurrection is, and not before.

If you don't want to deal with what I said, then tell me what you are?  Amill, Covenant Theology, what?  Give me your doctrinal persuasion.

Stranger
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: dpr on Fri Sep 30, 2016 - 10:08:45


If you don't want to deal with what I said, then tell me what you are?  Amill, Covenant Theology, what?  Give me your doctrinal persuasion.

Stranger

You are the one not wanting to deal with what has been said from Scripture, and that because you cannot understand it. It's you that is in denial of the written Word of God, and no one can help you until you decide you will listen to The Father and His Son in His Word instead of men's traditions.

Because you listen to men, and not God in His Word, He has put blindness upon you away from His Word. He has allowed you to deceive yourself because of not listening to Him.

You are in the category of the deceived that Apostle Paul spoke of in 1 Thess.5 that are "drunken in the night" and "sleep in the night", ideas he used to point to those spiritually drunken on the doctrines of men:

1 Thess 5:6-7
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
KJV



Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: Stranger on Fri Sep 30, 2016 - 10:20:28

You are the one not wanting to deal with what has been said from Scripture, and that because you cannot understand it. It's you that is in denial of the written Word of God, and no one can help you until you decide you will listen to The Father and His Son in His Word instead of men's traditions.

Because you listen to men, and not God in His Word, He has put blindness upon you away from His Word. He has allowed you to deceive yourself because of not listening to Him.

You are in the category of the deceived that Apostle Paul spoke of in 1 Thess.5 that are "drunken in the night" and "sleep in the night", ideas he used to point to those spiritually drunken on the doctrines of men:

1 Thess 5:6-7
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
KJV

I have no problem dealing with the Scripture.  And what I said to you involves the Scripture.   But you just keep coming back and telling me I'm not supposed to believe that as a dispensationalist. 

I am a dispensationalist.  I hold to the dispensations of the Scripture.  I am pre-trib.  That means I believe in the rapture before the Tribulation.  I believe just like you, that the term 'thief in the night' pertains to the 'Day of the Lord'. 

It would be better if you quit these early accusations and just address what I said.  And why don't you give  your theological persuasion?  Are you ashamed of it?

Stranger

Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: notreligus on Fri Sep 30, 2016 - 11:08:03

You are the one not wanting to deal with what has been said from Scripture, and that because you cannot understand it. It's you that is in denial of the written Word of God, and no one can help you until you decide you will listen to The Father and His Son in His Word instead of men's traditions.

Because you listen to men, and not God in His Word, He has put blindness upon you away from His Word. He has allowed you to deceive yourself because of not listening to Him.

You are in the category of the deceived that Apostle Paul spoke of in 1 Thess.5 that are "drunken in the night" and "sleep in the night", ideas he used to point to those spiritually drunken on the doctrines of men:

1 Thess 5:6-7
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
KJV

I have no problem dealing with the Scripture.  And what I said to you involves the Scripture.   But you just keep coming back and telling me I'm not supposed to believe that as a dispensationalist. 

I am a dispensationalist.  I hold to the dispensations of the Scripture.  I am pre-trib.  That means I believe in the rapture before the Tribulation.  I believe just like you, that the term 'thief in the night' pertains to the 'Day of the Lord'. 

It would be better if you quit these early accusations and just address what I said.  And why don't you give  your theological persuasion?  Are you ashamed of it?

Stranger

What do you believe to be the ultimate goal of God's progressive dealings with mankind?
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: dpr on Fri Sep 30, 2016 - 11:12:01

You are the one not wanting to deal with what has been said from Scripture, and that because you cannot understand it. It's you that is in denial of the written Word of God, and no one can help you until you decide you will listen to The Father and His Son in His Word instead of men's traditions.

Because you listen to men, and not God in His Word, He has put blindness upon you away from His Word. He has allowed you to deceive yourself because of not listening to Him.

You are in the category of the deceived that Apostle Paul spoke of in 1 Thess.5 that are "drunken in the night" and "sleep in the night", ideas he used to point to those spiritually drunken on the doctrines of men:

1 Thess 5:6-7
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
KJV

I have no problem dealing with the Scripture.  And what I said to you involves the Scripture.   But you just keep coming back and telling me I'm not supposed to believe that as a dispensationalist. 

I am a dispensationalist.  I hold to the dispensations of the Scripture.  I am pre-trib.  That means I believe in the rapture before the Tribulation.  I believe just like you, that the term 'thief in the night' pertains to the 'Day of the Lord'. 

It would be better if you quit these early accusations and just address what I said.  And why don't you give  your theological persuasion?  Are you ashamed of it?

Stranger

Don't have a clue what you're talking about, and obviously you don't either.

If you don't care to address the many Scripture evidences I posted showing Jesus doesn't gather us until the 'day of the Lord', then fine, you are not required to believe the Scripture if you don't want.

Your continued rejection to address my posted Scriptures suggests to me you are not really interested in what God's Word declares as written.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: dpr on Fri Sep 30, 2016 - 11:15:08

What do you believe to be the ultimate goal of God's progressive dealings with mankind?

God is going to divide His sheep from the goats when He returns. Those that erred in doctrine will be taught, even the wicked will be forced to come to His Truth and confess Him (Ezek.44; Rev.3:9).

Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: Stranger on Fri Sep 30, 2016 - 11:47:38

What do you believe to be the ultimate goal of God's progressive dealings with mankind?

The ultimate goal of anything God does is for His glory.  The ultimate goal of His progressive dealings with man is I believe found in 1Cor. 15:24-26

" Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father;when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.  For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.  The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."

Now, you said you used to be a dispensationalist.  What are you now?

Stranger
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: Tertullian on Sat Oct 29, 2016 - 09:27:47
dpr

My point is that if you say the Tribulation comes before the rapture,, then why watch for Christ?   Just watch for the Tribulation. 

Stranger

The followers of Jesus were to watch for signs of the Tribulation so that they could flee Jerusalem and avoid the worst of the destruction of Jerusalem. Historically, this was fulfilled when Christians fled Jerusalem (primarily to Pella) and then the Romans destroyed the city.   "Coming" is biblical language for judgement; if you can't muster a Bible study on the word, then take my word for it.  The Christians weren't to watch for the Rapture, but to watch for Christ's coming judgement.

Mark 13:1 And as he came out of the temple, one of his disciples said to him, “Look, Teacher, what wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!” 2 And Jesus said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? There will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”

Is that not simple?  The inability of pretribbers to understand even simple English amazes me.  I don't even have to tell you that Jesus isn't speaking of a third temple, do I? 

Mark 14 “But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not to be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

It might be obscure to you, but he abomination of desolation is what causes the Temple to be destroyed.    You don't need to know what it is, nor even understand it, but accept it else you'll be in error.  Anyway, the followers of Jesus were to exit by fleeing, not by rapture.   That should be simple enough for you to understand.   If English is in your top three languages, you might also notice the local is Judea, not the whole planet.

One of these days, read the Bible for what it says, rather than read it only for the purpose of twisting it to be compatible with a horrible false doctrine. 
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: Tertullian on Sat Oct 29, 2016 - 09:28:59
The sample size of this survey is a bit small, but it shows what I already believed: People don’t become pretribbers from reading the Bible.  On the contrary, the Bible liberates people from the false pretrib rapture doctrine.  As of two full months of the survey being posted, not a single person has indicated that they became a pretribber after being something to the contrary.

The Pretrib Rapture doctrine is like the Prosperity Gospel; it’s taught by crooked preachers who teach what carnal Christians want to hear.  No one wants to die (unless their lives have become totally miserable), and the pretrib rapture doctrine feeds off that fear of death.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: notreligus on Sat Oct 29, 2016 - 11:58:59
The sample size of this survey is a bit small, but it shows what I already believed: People don’t become pretribbers from reading the Bible.  On the contrary, the Bible liberates people from the false pretrib rapture doctrine.  As of two full months of the survey being posted, not a single person has indicated that they became a pretribber after being something to the contrary.

The Pretrib Rapture doctrine is like the Prosperity Gospel; it’s taught by crooked preachers who teach what carnal Christians want to hear.  No one wants to die (unless their lives have become totally miserable), and the pretrib rapture doctrine feeds off that fear of death.

Your theory does not fit everyone who believed or continues to believe there will be a pre-trib rapture.   As a former Dispensational I was taught that believers would be raptured from the Earth after the fullness of the Gentiles, or when God was going to again turn to Israel and again deal with that nation primarily, if not exclusively.   Israel would have to endure tribulation because of her rejection of Christ and at the end of the seven years Christ would return (not the with consummate judgment) to set up the Messianic kingdom.   The escapism you refer to is a byproduct of this belief. Dispensationals have been taught to watch the events of the Middle East and as they worsen and Israel is on the verge of accepting a false Messiah who will bring about a false peace then we can know the rapture is near.    Many Christians believe this and they don't know it as being "Dispensational."   Most do not even understand these things as Dispenationalism and that's why they don't participate in these discussions.(They're not afraid to debate you or anyone else.)  But they do hold firmly to Genesis 12:3 and believe that people that reject that Israel, the nation, is going to again be God's main focus, and those who deny this are wrong.    Another point that is always made is that the Church is not mentioned in Revelation after Chapter Three, and that is the proof that the Book of Revelation deals with Israel and the tribulation she must endure, and it has nothing to do with the Church.   They don't see the preachers of such things as crooked.   They flock to the meetings of folk like Perry Stone and John Hagee whose preaching and teaching emphasis is Israel.   Hagee, in his first edition of In Defense Of Israel, proclaimed that Jesus did not come as the Messiah but will come as the Messiah when He returns.  Those who believe these teachings have been made to feel guilty about accepting any other teaching that does not put the nation of Israel at the forefront of end-times.  This is why they get so defensive about this subject. 

What Christians need to understand is why Christ came to this Earth.   Right now many believe He came to save Gentiles and that God will resort to a former program to save Israel, still His chosen people.   Until they recognize that ALL of mankind needed reconciliation to God because ALL are guilty, they'll continue to believe these other things.   
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: Tertullian on Sun Oct 30, 2016 - 08:01:37
The escapism you refer to is a byproduct of this belief.

Your understanding of basic Dispensationalism is spot-on and clearer than most dispies understand their own belief.  That escapism, the Rapture, may be a byproduct, but it's also very dear to their thoughts and it's a focus of their teachers.

Quote
But they do hold firmly to Genesis 12:3 and believe that people that reject that Israel, the nation, is going to again be God's main focus, and those who deny this are wrong.    Another point that is always made is that the Church is not mentioned in Revelation after Chapter Three

Dispy doctrine is absolutely indefensible, which is an obvious reason why they don't debate much.   They have token "proofs" such as you've pointed to, but those proofs don't stand up to any scrutiny.  I've noticed several Pretrib oasis forums for dispies to gather and discuss their take on middle-eastern events and other insane nonsense without criticism allowed. 

Quote
Hagee, in his first edition of In Defense Of Israel, proclaimed that Jesus did not come as the Messiah but will come as the Messiah when He returns.

How does Hagee hide his horns and tail in pictures and videos?  Are those features like vampire flesh, they just don't show up in mirrors and photos?
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: Gods Princess on Tue Nov 01, 2016 - 03:25:55
Whether pre or mid it is going to happen. I am mid-trib but regardless of that, the rapture is going to happen. The most important thing is that we are ready.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: Tertullian on Tue Nov 01, 2016 - 06:42:02
Whether pre or mid it is going to happen. I am mid-trib but regardless of that, the rapture is going to happen. The most important thing is that we are ready.

It is death you should be ready for, not the rapture. 
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: Gods Princess on Tue Nov 01, 2016 - 06:45:04
Who says i am going to die? Jesus made it clear thst not eveyone will die but some will be caught up in the rapture :) 
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: Tertullian on Tue Nov 01, 2016 - 09:13:52
Even some Full Preterists believe the Rapture, but just that it already occurred.   But, God's word says we're all appointed to die.

Paul says the Lord will descend with the shout of an archangel (which many people understand to mean Jesus will come invisibly and silently to take our mortal bodies to heaven) to take "we" who are still alive.  I believe it's a mistake to conclude that those who are still alive won't die.  Paul was referring to his living contemporaries, himself and the Thessalonians.  The real rapture applies to all saints, after we die.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Tue Nov 01, 2016 - 11:19:35
Gods Princess  -  I am one that sees an already fulfilled, literal physical rapture of resurrected saints to heaven back in AD 70 - but NO translation taking place of anyone alive at that time.  The language of the I Thess. 4 text has been mistakenly interpreted to indicate a mass translation of living believers for our future, like that of Enoch, but it's just not there in the text.  It is only describing the group transport of the incorruptible bodies of resurrected believers to heaven back in AD 70.   The "alive and remaining" saints were those who had already been resurrected before (like those raised during Christ's ministry), who were still alive in their incorruptible bodies, and who had remained on earth in that first century. 

The phrase in I Cor. 15:51 "...we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed..." is translated in the Aramaic "...NONE of us shall sleep but all of us shall be transformed..."  When negatives are translated from the original languages into English, the process is a bit tricky.  This Aramaic version sounds as if it is saying that not a single one of those believers addressed in I Corinthians would pass through the physical death process.  We know that couldn't be the proper interpretation of this, since "it is appointed unto man once to die, and after this the judgment." 

"...we shall not all sleep..." is equal to "...all of us shall not sleep..." which is also equal to "...none of us shall sleep..."  which is also equal to Christ's statement directed to a grieving Martha in John 11:26, "...and everyone who lives and believes in me SHALL NEVER DIE..."  The literal, Interlinear translation of "SHALL NEVER DIE" is "in NO WISE SHALL DIE FOREVER".  In other words, Christ was promising to those who believed in Him, that even though their bodies were destined to die, their physical bodies would not stay dead forever in the grave, but would be changed into an incorruptible form in the resurrection.  They would "not perish (or go out of existence), but would have everlasting life."  To prove His power to do this, He gave them the visual demonstration of raising Lazarus from the dead, NEVER TO DIE AGAIN.  Lazarus and others like him participated in the AD 70 "rapture" to heaven that I Thess. 4 is talking about.

God is perfectly capable of translating every living believer instantaneously if He so desired, (as He did in the singular case of Enoch), but it is a mistake to presume that the I Thess. 4 and I Cor. 15 texts are the promise of a translation-type change for us while we are still alive.  I Cor. 15 is merely describing how the physically dead, rotting corpses of believers are changed to incorruptible, living ones in the resurrection.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: Gods Princess on Tue Nov 01, 2016 - 18:02:46
There were people back in the day, who also believed that the rapture had already occurred and they were encouraged not to be deceived.

You guys can believe whatever you like, I choose to believe what Jesus said.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: Tertullian on Tue Nov 01, 2016 - 18:21:12
You guys can believe whatever you like, I choose to believe what Jesus said.

What Jesus said:

And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!  And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down ... Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

70 AD, Period.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: Joe on Tue Nov 01, 2016 - 21:29:10
Re 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Co 15:51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Mt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
 25 Behold, I have told you before.
 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 
 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

The Cloud, The Shout, The Trumpet, and usually In Flaming Fire.

I think the confusion comes from the lack of knowing the scriptures and blindly following blind leaders.  Blinded by their traditions.  The LORD said that the leaders in His day made the Word of God of no effect through their traditions.
________________________________________

May God Bless...

Joe
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: Tertullian on Tue Nov 01, 2016 - 21:57:51
Re 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Coming with the clouds is an OT expression for judgement.  Those who pierced Jesus saw the judgement in 70 AD.  They're all long dead now, so they won't be seeing Jesus come in any fashion in the future.  Likewise, your other verse quotes support 70 AD, not 2016+.

Quote
I think the confusion comes from the lack of knowing the scriptures and blindly following blind leaders.  Blinded by their traditions.  The LORD said that the leaders in His day made the Word of God of no effect through their traditions.

That is true, like people not seeing OT symbolism in Revelation, or those who crassly expect signs, such as the vision in Revelation, to be literal.   Popular end-times doctrines are modern traditions that hardly existed before the 1800s.

Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: Star of David on Tue Nov 01, 2016 - 23:07:47
Up until December 13, 1990, I was an ardent believer in the popularly-taught End Times scenario of Antichrist, Armageddon, Seven Years of Tribulation, a possible and plausible reason to have a Rapture, Mark of the Beast, '666' (Rev. 13:18), etc., etc., etc.

But on December 13, 1990, this dire scenario began to show some serious cracks in my mental picture of how the Last Days will unfold.

And by the end of 1991, I seriously doubted that this cataclysmic scenario would take place.

And, certainly, by the end of 1992 and since then to this very day, this End Times scenario of Antichrist, Armageddon, Seven Years of Tribulation, Rapture, Mark of the Beast, '666' scenario has been a laughable one to me.


Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Tue Nov 01, 2016 - 23:42:20
God's Princess  -  If you and I had lived back in the first century, we also might have easily fallen prey to believing Hymenaeus' and Philetus' heresy that a resurrection had already occurred.  If we had seen or heard about that impressive, massive group of saints who were raised along with Christ and seen in Jerusalem in AD 33, we too might have been tricked into thinking that particular First Resurrection event was the only one which would ever happen.  These risen Matthew 27:52-53 saints did not die again.  They stayed to serve in the early church.  Paul refers to them several times in his writings.  These risen saints were the very ones that Hymenaeus and Philetus were using as "exhibit A" to prove their discouraging teaching that a resurrection was already past, since this remarkable story was widely known.   

What you have in the "rapture" text of I Thess. 4 is Paul's efforts to counter this heresy that had been circulating.  This heresy taught that the believers could not expect a second resurrection in their future (after that first one in AD 33) that would raise the bodies of the saints who had died after Christ's ascension.  Paul contradicts this, saying that those saints who were already above ground, (the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints and those like them), would not be the only ones Christ intended to take back to heaven with Him at His return.  Their fallen brethren also, the dead saints still in the ground, would be raised out of their graves first.  These saints would then rise to meet Christ in the air, with the already-resurrected, "alive and remaining" Matthew 27:52-53 saints following closely behind them to also join the Lord in the air.  There is no description of a translation-type change taking place in Paul's comforting words - only an assurance that God would not leave a single departed saint's body behind when He appeared.  All the dead would have been changed from their dead bodies into incorruptible, living forms fit to be taken into heaven.

Paul writes in II Tim. 4:1 (Interlinear), prior to his martyrdom in AD 67 (which II Tim. 4:6 speaks about), that this anticipated second resurrection was about to occur soon.  "Earnestly testify therefore I before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who IS ABOUT TO JUDGE LIVING AND DEAD according to His appearing and kingdom His; proclaim the word; be  urgent in season, out of season...."  The living were about to pass through the judgment of the Great Tribulation which primarily took place in Judea and Jerusalem in the years approaching  AD 70.  It was vengeance for the blood of Christ that they had called down upon their own heads and that of their children at Jesus' crucifixion. 

All believers who have died since AD 70 or who will die in our future can likewise expect a similar change into an incorruptible, living form.  But it will necessarily have to be at a third coming of Christ in our future, since He already made good on His many promises to come soon a second time for that first-century generation.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: notreligus on Wed Nov 02, 2016 - 14:39:34
God's Princess  -  If you and I had lived back in the first century, we also might have easily fallen prey to believing Hymenaeus' and Philetus' heresy that a resurrection had already occurred.  If we had seen or heard about that impressive, massive group of saints who were raised along with Christ and seen in Jerusalem in AD 33, we too might have been tricked into thinking that particular First Resurrection event was the only one which would ever happen.  These risen Matthew 27:52-53 saints did not die again.  They stayed to serve in the early church.  Paul refers to them several times in his writings.  These risen saints were the very ones that Hymenaeus and Philetus were using as "exhibit A" to prove their discouraging teaching that a resurrection was already past, since this remarkable story was widely known.   

What you have in the "rapture" text of I Thess. 4 is Paul's efforts to counter this heresy that had been circulating.  This heresy taught that the believers could not expect a second resurrection in their future (after that first one in AD 33) that would raise the bodies of the saints who had died after Christ's ascension.  Paul contradicts this, saying that those saints who were already above ground, (the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints and those like them), would not be the only ones Christ intended to take back to heaven with Him at His return.  Their fallen brethren also, the dead saints still in the ground, would be raised out of their graves first.  These saints would then rise to meet Christ in the air, with the already-resurrected, "alive and remaining" Matthew 27:52-53 saints following closely behind them to also join the Lord in the air.  There is no description of a translation-type change taking place in Paul's comforting words - only an assurance that God would not leave a single departed saint's body behind when He appeared.  All the dead would have been changed from their dead bodies into incorruptible, living forms fit to be taken into heaven.

Paul writes in II Tim. 4:1 (Interlinear), prior to his martyrdom in AD 67 (which II Tim. 4:6 speaks about), that this anticipated second resurrection was about to occur soon.  "Earnestly testify therefore I before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who IS ABOUT TO JUDGE LIVING AND DEAD according to His appearing and kingdom His; proclaim the word; be  urgent in season, out of season...."  The living were about to pass through the judgment of the Great Tribulation which primarily took place in Judea and Jerusalem in the years approaching  AD 70.  It was vengeance for the blood of Christ that they had called down upon their own heads and that of their children at Jesus' crucifixion. 

All believers who have died since AD 70 or who will die in our future can likewise expect a similar change into an incorruptible, living form.  But it will necessarily have to be at a third coming of Christ in our future, since He already made good on His many promises to come soon a second time for that first-century generation.

Paul did not believe or teach that the second resurrection was to soon occur.  You have wrongly categorized Paul.   A reading and study of the two books to the church at Thessalonica confirm what I've stated to be true.    Paul had to write the second letter to correct a teaching by Judaizers who had come there after him to proclaim what you said that Paul believed; so, Paul's belief was the opposite.  Members of the church had been convinced that Christ's second coming was to be at anytime.   Paul told them to get back to work because many had given up and were no longer "occupying until He comes" and were waiting for His return.   We've had people in our own generation go sit on mountaintops and wait for Jesus to return on a certain day at a certain time.  They found that they too had to go home and get back to work.   
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Wed Nov 02, 2016 - 16:18:39
notreligus  -  The II Thess. epistle was written in approximately AD 52.  Yes, Paul told them at the time he was writing that the Day of Christ was not "at hand" (present) at the time he was writing.  But he gave them a list of time markers that the believers could observe which would indicate that the Day of Christ was near at hand in their future.  Some of these time markers Paul had already discussed with them in person earlier, and he was refreshing their memory.  The generation he wrote to would live to see these time markers transpire, but until then, they were to exercise "patient waiting for Christ" (II Thess. 3:5). 

This waiting period from the II Thess. epistle around AD 52 was not long until October of AD 66 arrived when Roman armies would first encircle Jerusalem, just as Christ had predicted in Luke 21:20.  The rebellion (apostasia) that provoked this Roman military response started around mid AD 66.  This rebellion of the Jews against the Romans was the "falling away" (apostasia) time marker that Paul had alerted the Thessalonians to look for in II Thess. 2.  The word "soon" for someone living around AD 52 is not misplaced in this context.

Speaking of the lackadaisical attitude toward a proper work ethic that Paul rebukes in II Thess. 3:11 -12, this may or may not have been related to a belief in a soon-coming arrival of Christ.  We are not told the reason for this malady among some of the Thessalonians.  It could have been a problem similar to that of the Cretans (the "slow-bellies"), without being related to an excuse to sit on a rooftop and wait for Christ's appearing.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: dpr on Tue Feb 07, 2017 - 12:36:54


The followers of Jesus were to watch for signs of the Tribulation so that they could flee Jerusalem and avoid the worst of the destruction of Jerusalem. Historically, this was fulfilled when Christians fled Jerusalem (primarily to Pella) and then the Romans destroyed the city.   "Coming" is biblical language for judgement; if you can't muster a Bible study on the word, then take my word for it.  The Christians weren't to watch for the Rapture, but to watch for Christ's coming judgement.

....


That view that the signs Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse was past history is a doctrine of men called Preterism. It is not from The Bible, it is from men.

In Jesus' Olivet discourse (i.e., Matt.24 & Mark 13), He gave seven main signs of the very end of this world, with His 2nd coming being the final sign given. Those signs directly parallel the signs of the Seals in Revelation 6. So that strikes out any of men's theories that He meant those signs just for His disciples that were with Him on the Mount of Olives for their day.

Furthermore, those in Christ Jesus should be very watchful of doctrines devised that try to eliminate those signs being for the very end which Jesus gave His servants to be watching. Those are part of His warning to His Church to be watching all the way up to His return. So once again, through men's doctrine, the devil seeks to change Holy Writ.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: dpr on Tue Feb 07, 2017 - 12:55:00

Mark 13:1 And as he came out of the temple, one of his disciples said to him, “Look, Teacher, what wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!” 2 And Jesus said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? There will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”

Is that not simple?  The inability of pretribbers to understand even simple English amazes me.  I don't even have to tell you that Jesus isn't speaking of a third temple, do I? 

Mark 14 “But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not to be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

It might be obscure to you, but he abomination of desolation is what causes the Temple to be destroyed.    You don't need to know what it is, nor even understand it, but accept it else you'll be in error.  Anyway, the followers of Jesus were to exit by fleeing, not by rapture.   That should be simple enough for you to understand.   If English is in your top three languages, you might also notice the local is Judea, not the whole planet.

One of these days, read the Bible for what it says, rather than read it only for the purpose of twisting it to be compatible with a horrible false doctrine.

Let's see how your false accusation has turned upon yourself... because you have left out an important part of the discussion which Jesus had with His disciples in Mark 13. I will use the Matthew 24 version...

Matt 24:1-3
24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and His disciples came to Him for to shew Him the buildings of the temple.

2 And Jesus said unto them, "See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

3 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
KJV

By His disciple's response to what He said about the not one stone standing upon another event, they understood Him to be speaking "of the end of the world" like the Scripture says as written. And to make sure that's the timing that's to be understood there, they included the event of Jesus' 2nd coming which will only occur on the last day of this world, and is still future to us.

But men's doctrine of Preterism tries to lie and twist what is written there. They treat that phrase "the end of the world" by changing it to end of the 'age', and then add the lie that was meant for the disciples' days, and then falsely link it to the destruction of the 2nd temple and Jerusalem in 70 A.D. by the Romans.

But anyone who uses their brain just a little will want to them to stop at that point of changing the end of the world idea with converting it to that 'end of the age' idea, because if that doctrine were true, it would have to also mean Jesus' 2nd coming already happened back in His Apostle's days! One should note what is actually written there, that the event of Jesus' 2nd coming is ALSO given with that "end of the world" written phrase.

This is why the hard-core versions of false Preterist doctrine actually does... believe Jesus' 2nd coming already happened back in His Apostle's days! So they do not... believe in a bodily return of our Lord Jesus Christ back to this earth at all!

And you throw out a false accusation that I don't read my Bible?


Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: dpr on Tue Feb 07, 2017 - 13:06:17
You guys can believe whatever you like, I choose to believe what Jesus said.

What Jesus said:

And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!  And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down ... Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

70 AD, Period.

Wait a minute, you're leaving relevant Scripture out again.

Matt 24:32-35
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away.
KJV


That idea of His saying, "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled" is directly connected to ALL those signs Jesus gave there in that Chapter. The very final sign He gave was that of His 2nd coming to gather His Church after the tribulation.

Therefore, He was NOT... applying that generation idea to the days of His Apostles. He was applying it to the FINAL GENERATION that will see ALL those signs He gave there, including the sign of His coming in the clouds!

Once again, because you have been taught to believe Preterist doctrine from men, it has twisted your understanding away from what is actually written there.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: dpr on Tue Feb 07, 2017 - 13:22:17


Mark 14 “But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not to be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

It might be obscure to you, but he abomination of desolation is what causes the Temple to be destroyed.    You don't need to know what it is, nor even understand it, but accept it else you'll be in error.  Anyway, the followers of Jesus were to exit by fleeing, not by rapture.   That should be simple enough for you to understand.   If English is in your top three languages, you might also notice the local is Judea, not the whole planet.


By that, you have also shown you don't really know what the "abomination of desolation" our Lord Jesus warned is about.

In the Book of Daniel (which is where Jesus quoted from about the AOD), we are shown a false one coming to Jerusalem for the end of this world, and ending sacrifices, and instead placing an abomination that makes desolate, pointing to an idol being used in place of sacrifices at the temple. Thus the abomination of desolation is NOT... about a destruction of a temple in Jerusalem; it is about SPIRITUAL DESOLATION of a temple in Jerusalem for the end.

In 170 B.C. we have an example of the false one in Daniel 11 that did most of that. His name was Antiochus Epiphanes, or Antiochus IV. He conquered Jerusalem, went into the STANDING temple and sacrificed swine upon the altar, desecrating it, and spread its broth around inside the temple, and then placed an idol to Zeus demanding all to bow in worship to it. In Rev.13 we are shown a similar event of idol worship for the end of this world with the 'image of the beast'.

Thing is about Antiochus, he did that back around 170 years before Jesus was born. And Antiochus had already died by the time of Jesus' 1st coming and declaration of the "abomination of desolation" for the end from the Book of Daniel.

It means... look for a final manifesting of the "abomination of desolation" for the end of this world, IN JERUSALEM, IN A REBUILT TEMPLE.

Revelation 11:1-2 reveals another temple in Jerusalem for the end. Apostle Paul revealed it in 2 Thess.2:4 also. And the orthodox Jews in today's Jerusalem already have the materials ready to build it.

Thus denial of another temple in Jerusalem for the end just doesn't get it since we have all that evidence, both from Scripture and from the Jew's own working today in Jerusalem. The only thing preventing its building is the coming of the pseudo-Christ to work his great signs and bring world peace.

Furthermore, per Zechariah, The LORD is to build the temple in Jerusalem when He comes. So the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem are definitely looking... for their Messiah to come and the building of their temple in Jerusalem. Thing is, the one coming first will not be the True Messiah Jesus Christ, for Jesus of Nazareth Who is The Messiah, they have rejected.

Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: dpr on Tue Feb 07, 2017 - 13:31:02
Re 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Coming with the clouds is an OT expression for judgement.  Those who pierced Jesus saw the judgement in 70 AD.  They're all long dead now, so they won't be seeing Jesus come in any fashion in the future.  Likewise, your other verse quotes support 70 AD, not 2016+.
....

That is true, like people not seeing OT symbolism in Revelation, or those who crassly expect signs, such as the vision in Revelation, to be literal.   Popular end-times doctrines are modern traditions that hardly existed before the 1800s.

Jesus' future coming in the clouds will... involve a judgment upon this earth. That's what the consuming fire Apostle Peter warned of in 2 Pet.3:10 is about, as Paul warned also in 1 Thess.5 about the "sudden destruction". Both were pulling from the Old Testament Books of the prophets about that future event for the very end of this present world.

Does Preterism really teach you that falseness that everything written in the OT Books of the prophets is all fulfilled history?? Their truly crazy if that's true, and it would seem so by what you've written. Even Isaiah covered future events of God's new heavens and a new earth which is still way... future to us still.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: dpr on Tue Feb 07, 2017 - 13:39:14
God's Princess  -  If you and I had lived back in the first century, we also might have easily fallen prey to believing Hymenaeus' and Philetus' heresy that a resurrection had already occurred.  If we had seen or heard about that impressive, massive group of saints who were raised along with Christ and seen in Jerusalem in AD 33, we too might have been tricked into thinking that particular First Resurrection event was the only one which would ever happen.  These risen Matthew 27:52-53 saints did not die again.  They stayed to serve in the early church.  Paul refers to them several times in his writings.  These risen saints were the very ones that Hymenaeus and Philetus were using as "exhibit A" to prove their discouraging teaching that a resurrection was already past, since this remarkable story was widely known.   

What you have in the "rapture" text of I Thess. 4 is Paul's efforts to counter this heresy that had been circulating.  This heresy taught that the believers could not expect a second resurrection in their future (after that first one in AD 33) that would raise the bodies of the saints who had died after Christ's ascension.  Paul contradicts this, saying that those saints who were already above ground, (the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints and those like them), would not be the only ones Christ intended to take back to heaven with Him at His return.  Their fallen brethren also, the dead saints still in the ground, would be raised out of their graves first.  These saints would then rise to meet Christ in the air, with the already-resurrected, "alive and remaining" Matthew 27:52-53 saints following closely behind them to also join the Lord in the air.  There is no description of a translation-type change taking place in Paul's comforting words - only an assurance that God would not leave a single departed saint's body behind when He appeared.  All the dead would have been changed from their dead bodies into incorruptible, living forms fit to be taken into heaven.

Paul writes in II Tim. 4:1 (Interlinear), prior to his martyrdom in AD 67 (which II Tim. 4:6 speaks about), that this anticipated second resurrection was about to occur soon.  "Earnestly testify therefore I before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who IS ABOUT TO JUDGE LIVING AND DEAD according to His appearing and kingdom His; proclaim the word; be  urgent in season, out of season...."  The living were about to pass through the judgment of the Great Tribulation which primarily took place in Judea and Jerusalem in the years approaching  AD 70.  It was vengeance for the blood of Christ that they had called down upon their own heads and that of their children at Jesus' crucifixion. 

All believers who have died since AD 70 or who will die in our future can likewise expect a similar change into an incorruptible, living form.  But it will necessarily have to be at a third coming of Christ in our future, since He already made good on His many promises to come soon a second time for that first-century generation.

Am I on a Preterist Forum???

That's what that doctrine above is. It is a doctrine of men, and is not found in God's Word.

Jesus' 2nd coming did NOT... happen back in His Apostle's days. It is still future to us, and understanding that does not make one a Futurist either, seeing how some Preterists also believe Jesus' 2nd coming is still future.

Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: dpr on Tue Feb 07, 2017 - 13:48:25
notreligus  -  The II Thess. epistle was written in approximately AD 52.  Yes, Paul told them at the time he was writing that the Day of Christ was not "at hand" (present) at the time he was writing.  But he gave them a list of time markers that the believers could observe which would indicate that the Day of Christ was near at hand in their future.  Some of these time markers Paul had already discussed with them in person earlier, and he was refreshing their memory.  The generation he wrote to would live to see these time markers transpire, but until then, they were to exercise "patient waiting for Christ" (II Thess. 3:5). 

This waiting period from the II Thess. epistle around AD 52 was not long until October of AD 66 arrived when Roman armies would first encircle Jerusalem, just as Christ had predicted in Luke 21:20.  The rebellion (apostasia) that provoked this Roman military response started around mid AD 66.  This rebellion of the Jews against the Romans was the "falling away" (apostasia) time marker that Paul had alerted the Thessalonians to look for in II Thess. 2.  The word "soon" for someone living around AD 52 is not misplaced in this context.

Speaking of the lackadaisical attitude toward a proper work ethic that Paul rebukes in II Thess. 3:11 -12, this may or may not have been related to a belief in a soon-coming arrival of Christ.  We are not told the reason for this malady among some of the Thessalonians.  It could have been a problem similar to that of the Cretans (the "slow-bellies"), without being related to an excuse to sit on a rooftop and wait for Christ's appearing.

You started out alright about what Apostle Paul was teaching, but then you fell quickly to men's doctrines of Preterism or Historicism, wrongly teaching 2 Thess.2 events being already past history.

What Paul taught in 2 Thess.2 about a false one coming to sit in the temple (in Jerusalem), is for the final generation on this earth when Jesus' 2nd coming happens on the 'day of the Lord'. On that day will come a destruction from The Almighty, and will end man's works off this earth. That of course did NOT... happen in 70 A.D.

It foolishness to teach that Jesus' 2nd coming happened back in 70 A.D., and that's basically the idea you are preaching, because the events of 2 Thess.2 are timed for the very end of this world, and not back in 70 A.D. Proof? Easy, in 2 Thess.2 Paul taught that false one coming to sit in the temple will be destroyed by the brightness of Jesus' coming. And that false one coming to sit in the temple is... about a literal temple in Jerusalem, a standing temple for the end which the orthodox Jews today have the materials ready to build.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: DaveRC on Tue Feb 07, 2017 - 14:58:51

Mark 13:1 And as he came out of the temple, one of his disciples said to him, “Look, Teacher, what wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!” 2 And Jesus said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? There will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”

Is that not simple?  The inability of pretribbers to understand even simple English amazes me.  I don't even have to tell you that Jesus isn't speaking of a third temple, do I? 

Mark 14 “But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not to be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

It might be obscure to you, but he abomination of desolation is what causes the Temple to be destroyed.    You don't need to know what it is, nor even understand it, but accept it else you'll be in error.  Anyway, the followers of Jesus were to exit by fleeing, not by rapture.   That should be simple enough for you to understand.   If English is in your top three languages, you might also notice the local is Judea, not the whole planet.

One of these days, read the Bible for what it says, rather than read it only for the purpose of twisting it to be compatible with a horrible false doctrine.

Let's see how your false accusation has turned upon yourself... because you have left out an important part of the discussion which Jesus had with His disciples in Mark 13. I will use the Matthew 24 version...

Matt 24:1-3
24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and His disciples came to Him for to shew Him the buildings of the temple.

2 And Jesus said unto them, "See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

3 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
KJV

By His disciple's response to what He said about the not one stone standing upon another event, they understood Him to be speaking "of the end of the world" like the Scripture says as written. And to make sure that's the timing that's to be understood there, they included the event of Jesus' 2nd coming which will only occur on the last day of this world, and is still future to us.

But men's doctrine of Preterism tries to lie and twist what is written there. They treat that phrase "the end of the world" by changing it to end of the 'age', and then add the lie that was meant for the disciples' days, and then falsely link it to the destruction of the 2nd temple and Jerusalem in 70 A.D. by the Romans.

But anyone who uses their brain just a little will want to them to stop at that point of changing the end of the world idea with converting it to that 'end of the age' idea, because if that doctrine were true, it would have to also mean Jesus' 2nd coming already happened back in His Apostle's days! One should note what is actually written there, that the event of Jesus' 2nd coming is ALSO given with that "end of the world" written phrase.

This is why the hard-core versions of false Preterist doctrine actually does... believe Jesus' 2nd coming already happened back in His Apostle's days! So they do not... believe in a bodily return of our Lord Jesus Christ back to this earth at all!

And you throw out a false accusation that I don't read my Bible?

The Greek translation is aionos #165. That is "age" in the English.

And the KJV didn't  mistranslate this just the common word usage of "world" has changed since then.

What did Jesus mean by "this generation" in Luke 17:25?

What did Jesus mean in Matthew 16:27-28 & Revelation 22:12?
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: RB on Tue Feb 07, 2017 - 15:27:17
Just tagging this so I can come back in the morning and post.

Quote
It foolishness to teach that Jesus' 2nd coming happened back in 70 A.D
Agreed

Quote
What Paul taught in 2 Thess.2 about a false one coming to sit in the temple (in Jerusalem), is for the final generation on this earth when Jesus' 2nd coming happens on the 'day of the Lord'. On that day will come a destruction from The Almighty, and will end man's works off this earth. That of course did NOT... happen in 70 A.D.

It foolishness to teach that Jesus' 2nd coming happened back in 70 A.D., and that's basically the idea you are preaching, because the events of 2 Thess.2 are timed for the very end of this world, and not back in 70 A.D. Proof? Easy, in 2 Thess.2 Paul taught that false one coming to sit in the temple will be destroyed by the brightness of Jesus' coming. And that false one coming to sit in the temple is... about a literal temple in Jerusalem, a standing temple for the end which the orthodox Jews today have the materials ready to build.
Disagree

You are just as wrong as the Preterists. Tomorrow.....
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: Gods Princess on Tue Feb 07, 2017 - 15:40:33
I beleive more in mid trib....but whether its pre or mid trib...it's going to happen and we all need to be ready.  ::clappingoverhead::
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Tue Feb 07, 2017 - 18:02:48
dpr  -  The Man of Sin was NOT to be destroyed by the brightness of CHRIST'S coming.  He was to be destroyed at the same time that the brightness of HIS OWN coming was destroyed.  If you read the whole sentence, you will catch this. 

II Thess 2:8-10  "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his (the Wicked one's) coming: even him (The Wicked One) whose coming (The Wicked One's coming) is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."

If this truly is CHRIST'S second coming spoken of here that destroys the Man of Sin, then the sentence structure would demand that Christ's coming would be like Satan's, accompanied by lying wonders.  Since that interpretation is impossible, then it has to mean that the very brightness of the Man of Sin's coming into power is snuffed out simultaneously along with his own life. As soon as he comes on the scene and exalts himself, he is destroyed.

I have discussed on this forum before in a couple of places just who this singular character was.  His name was Menahem, son or grandson of Judas the Galilean of Acts 5:37, another Messiah wannabe.  Several in this family were involved with instigating revolts and rebellion against Rome, and Menahem was no exception.  He fulfilled all the criteria listed in II Thess. 2 for the Man of Sin's actions.

The second coming and the bodily return of Christ did not occur simultaneously with the Man of Sin's destruction.  That Day of the Lord was to follow some time afterward.  The destruction of this man was just a mile marker that would alert the believers to be ready for Christ's coming some time after the Man of Sin had been destroyed.  On the calendar, it was only 4 years later, since Menahem was killed in the Zealot temple siege in AD 66. 
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: dpr on Wed Feb 08, 2017 - 09:59:49



The Greek translation is aionos #165. That is "age" in the English.

And the KJV didn't  mistranslate this just the common word usage of "world" has changed since then.

What did Jesus mean by "this generation" in Luke 17:25?

What did Jesus mean in Matthew 16:27-28 & Revelation 22:12?

What's the Greek translation for "the sign of Thy coming"?

Matt 24:3
3  And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
KJV

Because that phrase, "the sign of Thy coming" was included in the disciple's question places the meaning to be at the end of this world when Jesus' 2nd coming actually happens, as according to the OT prophets and NT Apostles.

The word 'age' can mean that also. It does not have to be limited to a generation. That's why the KJV translators also translated it to 'eternal, (for) ever (-more), ever, and world.'

Simply by the events written in the OT prophets and Revelation about the end of this present world are enough to know that Jesus' 2nd coming is still future to us today.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: dpr on Wed Feb 08, 2017 - 10:21:12
I beleive more in mid trib....but whether its pre or mid trib...it's going to happen and we all need to be ready.  ::clappingoverhead::

Our Lord Jesus didn't leave us on our own to know how to be 'ready'. What does 'ready' really mean? He certainly did not just say 'be ready' and nothing else. He commanded us to 'watch'...

Matt 24:42-47
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
KJV

Jesus referred to the hours of standing watch, like a military division of hours of the night. There was 3 separate times of watches of the night, roughly 4 hours each (sunset to 10 o'clock; 10 to 2 in the morning; and 2 to sunrise).

If you knew in which "watch" the thief would come, then you would not allow your house to be broken into ("broken up"). That idea of the thief is about the metaphor of the day of the Lord coming "as a thief in the night" per Paul in 1 Thess.5, and Peter in 2 Pet.3:10, and Rev.16:15 where our Lord Jesus said He comes "as a thief".

This means our Lord Jesus expects us to be watching, and know in what "watch" His coming is, which means a general ballpark idea (not the specific day or hour, which no man knows). It's like Paul also said in 1 Thess.5, that that day of the Lord is not... to take us (the Church) by surprise, for we are given to know "the times and the seasons".

This is why our Lord Jesus gave us the seven main signs of the end of this world which are events we are to be watching leading up to His return in Revelation.

So that... is actually how... those in Christ Jesus are to be 'ready' in waiting for His coming.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: notreligus on Fri Feb 10, 2017 - 19:03:01
notreligus  -  The II Thess. epistle was written in approximately AD 52.  Yes, Paul told them at the time he was writing that the Day of Christ was not "at hand" (present) at the time he was writing.  But he gave them a list of time markers that the believers could observe which would indicate that the Day of Christ was near at hand in their future.  Some of these time markers Paul had already discussed with them in person earlier, and he was refreshing their memory.  The generation he wrote to would live to see these time markers transpire, but until then, they were to exercise "patient waiting for Christ" (II Thess. 3:5). 

This waiting period from the II Thess. epistle around AD 52 was not long until October of AD 66 arrived when Roman armies would first encircle Jerusalem, just as Christ had predicted in Luke 21:20.  The rebellion (apostasia) that provoked this Roman military response started around mid AD 66.  This rebellion of the Jews against the Romans was the "falling away" (apostasia) time marker that Paul had alerted the Thessalonians to look for in II Thess. 2.  The word "soon" for someone living around AD 52 is not misplaced in this context.

Speaking of the lackadaisical attitude toward a proper work ethic that Paul rebukes in II Thess. 3:11 -12, this may or may not have been related to a belief in a soon-coming arrival of Christ.  We are not told the reason for this malady among some of the Thessalonians.  It could have been a problem similar to that of the Cretans (the "slow-bellies"), without being related to an excuse to sit on a rooftop and wait for Christ's appearing.

You started out alright about what Apostle Paul was teaching, but then you fell quickly to men's doctrines of Preterism or Historicism, wrongly teaching 2 Thess.2 events being already past history.

What Paul taught in 2 Thess.2 about a false one coming to sit in the temple (in Jerusalem), is for the final generation on this earth when Jesus' 2nd coming happens on the 'day of the Lord'. On that day will come a destruction from The Almighty, and will end man's works off this earth. That of course did NOT... happen in 70 A.D.

It foolishness to teach that Jesus' 2nd coming happened back in 70 A.D., and that's basically the idea you are preaching, because the events of 2 Thess.2 are timed for the very end of this world, and not back in 70 A.D. Proof? Easy, in 2 Thess.2 Paul taught that false one coming to sit in the temple will be destroyed by the brightness of Jesus' coming. And that false one coming to sit in the temple is... about a literal temple in Jerusalem, a standing temple for the end which the orthodox Jews today have the materials ready to build.

And the Mormon Church has offered to give Israel millions of dollars (even though they believe that THEY are true Israel) to build a temple, but that does not have to be Paul's meaning.   For many years I believed that to be true, but it's not a must.   The church fulfills the "temple" requirement.  The church are the Jews who believe in Christ and the Gentiles who believe, and the two have become the one new man in Christ.    Paul taught that, as you may recall.   We know that there have been many types of antichrist throughout history.   There will be a final antichrist and this will be during the time of lawlessness that will be prevalent.   Lawlessness, in the Biblical sense, is a time when the majority of people have no concern for the things of God - the true God - our God Almighty.   It seems to me that the time in which we live pretty well fulfills this   A particular antichrist is going to come and seem to bring unity while it will be a false unity.   I don't know about you but it is obvious to me that there is a strong effort to unite the three main religions of the world (and I hate to call Christianity a religion), Islam, Judaism, and Christianity.  They are favorably compared as three religions which are all Abrahamic faiths and thus have common ties.   Jesus is being pushed aside to accomplish this and many are falling into this trap to aid this false unity.   
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: dpr on Sat Feb 11, 2017 - 00:36:38
notreligus  -  The II Thess. epistle was written in approximately AD 52.  Yes, Paul told them at the time he was writing that the Day of Christ was not "at hand" (present) at the time he was writing.  But he gave them a list of time markers that the believers could observe which would indicate that the Day of Christ was near at hand in their future.  Some of these time markers Paul had already discussed with them in person earlier, and he was refreshing their memory.  The generation he wrote to would live to see these time markers transpire, but until then, they were to exercise "patient waiting for Christ" (II Thess. 3:5). 

This waiting period from the II Thess. epistle around AD 52 was not long until October of AD 66 arrived when Roman armies would first encircle Jerusalem, just as Christ had predicted in Luke 21:20.  The rebellion (apostasia) that provoked this Roman military response started around mid AD 66.  This rebellion of the Jews against the Romans was the "falling away" (apostasia) time marker that Paul had alerted the Thessalonians to look for in II Thess. 2.  The word "soon" for someone living around AD 52 is not misplaced in this context.

Speaking of the lackadaisical attitude toward a proper work ethic that Paul rebukes in II Thess. 3:11 -12, this may or may not have been related to a belief in a soon-coming arrival of Christ.  We are not told the reason for this malady among some of the Thessalonians.  It could have been a problem similar to that of the Cretans (the "slow-bellies"), without being related to an excuse to sit on a rooftop and wait for Christ's appearing.

You started out alright about what Apostle Paul was teaching, but then you fell quickly to men's doctrines of Preterism or Historicism, wrongly teaching 2 Thess.2 events being already past history.

What Paul taught in 2 Thess.2 about a false one coming to sit in the temple (in Jerusalem), is for the final generation on this earth when Jesus' 2nd coming happens on the 'day of the Lord'. On that day will come a destruction from The Almighty, and will end man's works off this earth. That of course did NOT... happen in 70 A.D.

It foolishness to teach that Jesus' 2nd coming happened back in 70 A.D., and that's basically the idea you are preaching, because the events of 2 Thess.2 are timed for the very end of this world, and not back in 70 A.D. Proof? Easy, in 2 Thess.2 Paul taught that false one coming to sit in the temple will be destroyed by the brightness of Jesus' coming. And that false one coming to sit in the temple is... about a literal temple in Jerusalem, a standing temple for the end which the orthodox Jews today have the materials ready to build.

And the Mormon Church has offered to give Israel millions of dollars (even though they believe that THEY are true Israel) to build a temple, but that does not have to be Paul's meaning.   For many years I believed that to be true, but it's not a must.   The church fulfills the "temple" requirement.  The church are the Jews who believe in Christ and the Gentiles who believe, and the two have become the one new man in Christ.    Paul taught that, as you may recall.   We know that there have been many types of antichrist throughout history.   There will be a final antichrist and this will be during the time of lawlessness that will be prevalent.   Lawlessness, in the Biblical sense, is a time when the majority of people have no concern for the things of God - the true God - our God Almighty.   It seems to me that the time in which we live pretty well fulfills this   A particular antichrist is going to come and seem to bring unity while it will be a false unity.   I don't know about you but it is obvious to me that there is a strong effort to unite the three main religions of the world (and I hate to call Christianity a religion), Islam, Judaism, and Christianity.  They are favorably compared as three religions which are all Abrahamic faiths and thus have common ties.   Jesus is being pushed aside to accomplish this and many are falling into this trap to aid this false unity.

The Mormons are irrelevant; they are a cult. I never mentioned them.

The ones who will build another temple are the orthodox unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem, as they have been gathering materials for almost 2 decades now to do just that. The temple Paul referred to in 2 Thess.2:4 is a physical temple in Jerusalem. That is what "the temple of God" has always been involving Israel in Bible history.

Trying to apply the spiritual temple idea which belongs to those in Christ Jesus to that Jerusalem temple the Antichrist comes to sit in is also way out of context, and here's why:

The spiritual temple per the NT Covenant is founded upon the prophets, the Apostles, and Christ Jesus Himself as The Chief Cornerstone. The spiritual temple CANNOT BE CORRUPTED. Those who think to corrupt it simply are 'cut off' from it and Christ, for it is NOT a physical temple on earth. So I'm surprised you just regurgitated a doctrine of man (because I've heard many times before that false attempt to push Christ's spiritual temple per Ephesians 2 into the context of the temple of 2 Thess.2:4 the Antichrist sits in.)

Bottomline - if the spiritual temple in Christ Jesus could be corrupted by the Antichrist, then it would mean those in Christ have no Salvation. It would mean Christ Jesus Himself in Heaven would become corrupted. Just who... would really like for that happen? The devil of course, and his servants on earth.
 
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: AstridK on Sat Mar 04, 2017 - 22:58:32
For many years I believed that a rapture would happen. I mostly was concerned for my mother because she has been through an inordinate amount of suffering in her life (more than most, like Nazi holocaust level suffering) and so I assumed that God would remove her before the Tribulation occurred if it occurred within her lifetime. I believed it because so many Christians do so I thought it was a given. I didn’t see myself as someone who would be taken because, somehow, in my thinking I thought that it wasn’t just about Christians being taken but that it was certain Christians who would be. I thought that the ones who would be taken were people who had suffered greatly already and had achieved a higher state spiritually-people who were more enlightened and that if they were left here, it would be both redundant and cruel. I did not see myself as someone who has achieved that status.

Recently, I started talking to some people online about the rapture and found out that now, there are all these different beliefs attached to it. Some believe in a pre-trib rapture, some a mid, some an end-trib rapture and some believe in all three. Then I started looking up information about the rapture online and discovered that the rapture came from a theologian named John Nelson Darby. In his researching of the Bible, he found certain scriptures that sound as if it is describing an event where people are taken before the Tribulation. This was in the 1830s. It has stuck since that time but I also found that the scriptures he is getting this from, he is simply misinterpreting their meanings. Because of discovering this information and because of what is happening in the world right now, I seriously doubt that a rapture will take place (I actually think it is now too late and should have occurred already if it were going to) and even though I would like to be taken, I am more upset that my mother won’t be. She has already learned all she could (at least I feel that way) learn from suffering. All I can do is have faith that God knows what he is doing and that she will be taken care of in the way he feels is most important.

I worry about people who say “It’s ok. I’m going to be raptured.” They are relying on something that most likely will not happen and in relying on being rescued from the pain and suffering, they aren’t arming themselves with strength to endure it. I think a good way to start arming yourself is to read the bible. Jesus said “Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.” I think it is important to read the bible and commit what is most useful to you to memory for times when things fall apart and you really have no bread to live on because that is what is going to happen. I also worry that these people, because they believed in something that they thought God was guaranteeing for them, when it doesn’t happen, they will blame and hate God for it when it really wasn’t something he promised in the first place.

Another thing I think they are missing is that God sees value in all human experiences, including suffering. He doesn’t enjoy human suffering but knows that it brings deep spiritual development. It expands a person’s understanding and causes empathy to grow. Even people who may be seen as most important to him, he allows to suffer. The 12 Apostles, when they went out into the world to preach about Jesus Christ, were murdered in gruesome ways-all of them except John who died in old age. And of course, his own son suffered greatly in his death.

Then there is the whole thing about Jesus coming back. People talk about the rapture and Jesus coming back to take them. When I have read about end times in the bible, I only interpreted that he comes back at the end of it to put an end to the Antichrist. I can’t think of anywhere that he comes back before that.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: TonkaTim on Sun Mar 05, 2017 - 00:18:42
When I have read about end times in the bible, I only interpreted that he comes back at the end....

You did well. That is what the Bible teaches. It is what Jesus & the Apostles taught.
That has been the dominant understanding in Christianity over the millennia.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: dpr on Sun Mar 05, 2017 - 03:30:09
For many years I believed that a rapture would happen. I mostly was concerned for my mother because she has been through an inordinate amount of suffering in her life (more than most, like Nazi holocaust level suffering) and so I assumed that God would remove her before the Tribulation occurred if it occurred within her lifetime. I believed it because so many Christians do so I thought it was a given. I didn’t see myself as someone who would be taken because, somehow, in my thinking I thought that it wasn’t just about Christians being taken but that it was certain Christians who would be. I thought that the ones who would be taken were people who had suffered greatly already and had achieved a higher state spiritually-people who were more enlightened and that if they were left here, it would be both redundant and cruel. I did not see myself as someone who has achieved that status.

Recently, I started talking to some people online about the rapture and found out that now, there are all these different beliefs attached to it. Some believe in a pre-trib rapture, some a mid, some an end-trib rapture and some believe in all three. Then I started looking up information about the rapture online and discovered that the rapture came from a theologian named John Nelson Darby. In his researching of the Bible, he found certain scriptures that sound as if it is describing an event where people are taken before the Tribulation. This was in the 1830s. It has stuck since that time but I also found that the scriptures he is getting this from, he is simply misinterpreting their meanings. Because of discovering this information and because of what is happening in the world right now, I seriously doubt that a rapture will take place (I actually think it is now too late and should have occurred already if it were going to) and even though I would like to be taken, I am more upset that my mother won’t be. She has already learned all she could (at least I feel that way) learn from suffering. All I can do is have faith that God knows what he is doing and that she will be taken care of in the way he feels is most important.

....

The word 'rapture' is not written in The Bible. The rapturist gets from the Latin translation of Greek harpazo, which means to literally seize. Greek harpazo is the word used for "caught up" in the KJV Bible.

2 Corinthians 12 and Acts 8 with Philip are the main examples we have in God's Word to go by.

Acts 8:39-40
39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.
KJV

The "caught away" phrase is Greek harpazo. As soon as Philip had baptized the Ethiopian, God caught away Philip to another location on earth. Philip did not die, nor was he changed in any way for God to do that.

The other main example of harpazo was by Paul:

2 Cor 12:2-4
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
KJV

Per Acts 14, Paul was once stoned and assumed dead, and the Apostles stood over him and Paul arose. So most likely the above description of the one caught up was about Paul himself; he was being modest.

What was 'caught up' to Paradise in Paul's example? We know Philip was merely transported on earth while in his flesh to another location. But in Paul's case, something else was "caught up".

There are several examples in the OT Books of the prophets, especially Ezekiel, and how The Spirit took hold of them and transported their spirit by vision to another locale, or heavenly scene (see Ezek.3, & 8, and 40). Paul didn't know whether he was 'in the body' or 'out of the body' when caught up to Paradise.

Per the story of Lazarus and the rich man which Jesus gave per Luke 16, the location of Biblical Paradise is in the heavenly dimension, not our earthly dimension. So what part of Paul's being was "caught up" to that location?

With many NDE's (near death experience), people have reported how during surgery they somehow found themselves out of their body and above near the ceiling looking down on their flesh body on the operating table and doctors, nurses, etc. They mentioned not feeling any pain, and their not being able to communicate with those in the room. This kind of thing scares many people, but plenty of doctors have reports of it from some of their patients.

That's not something we should be scared about, but we should understand it. Per God's Word, we are not just a flesh body. God made us with a spirit inside our flesh body that at flesh death a "silver cord" is severed, releasing our flesh back to the ground where it came from, and our spirit goes back to God Who gave it (Eccl.12:5-7). Obviously, the one Paul said was "caught up", their "silver cord" was not severed, and was thus revived.

This shows us how to interpret the "caught up" of 1 Thessalonians 4 about our gathering to Christ Jesus at His 2nd coming. Per that Jesus descends to this earth, bringing the "asleep" saints with Him, and then those of us still alive are "caught up" with them in the clouds.

Will that be like the Acts 8 example with Philip? Partially. Being seized (harpazo) and transported to another location is involved with the future 1 Thess.4 event.

And will that future event be like Paul's in 2 Cor.12? Yes, more so. In 1 Corinthians 15 Paul defined the resurrection body being a "spiritual body". And he revealed that on the "last trump" we alive shall be "changed" "at the twinkling of an eye", suggesting that our flesh shell will immediately be cast off, revealing our "spiritual body".

That is what God's Word teaches on that matter.



Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: Captain Shays on Sun Mar 19, 2017 - 17:26:48
I too was taught a pre-tribulation theory but have since changed. I now believe very strongly that, we will be raptured some time during the great tribulation. In fact, I think the rapture is a rescue out of the tribulation. At that time, we will immediately be transformed into our new bodies and soon thereafter, maybe immediately, or at some later time (but not too long) we will be part of the Lords army that wages war against the antichrist and his armies.
Think about this. In the pre-trib theory, the Christians will be taken up into the sky and transformed leaving behind all the sinners. Out of those sinners, who never darkened the door of a church, never read their bible, never professed to being Christians, never lead anyone else to the Lord, will all of a sudden see the Christians gone and remember what some Christian told them years before about the rapture and see that the Christians were right all along and then, start to believe and get saved. But there will be no other Christians around to help them understand the scriptures. All the real churches will be empty. What's left of real preachers on TV will all be gone by then. In fact, knowing that the Holy Spirit lives within each believer, wouldn't it be safe to say that if the Christians are gone so is The Spirit?
So, I'm to believe that there will be multitudes of people who come to the faith "AFTER" all the Christians have been raptured? How?

My pastor in refuting these questions told me that God doesn't take His wrath out on His children and the tribulation is God taking His wrath out. I contended that perhaps, the tribulation isn't God taking His wrath out on God's children, but Satan through the antichrist taking his wrath out on God's children and that is why Jesus told us we would be persecuted and why Revelations talks about the multitudes of martyred Saints from the tribulation. After the rapture which rescues the Christians (God cut that time short for the sake of the elect), THEN God takes His wrath out on the antichrist and his followers who are not Gods children.
I guess we Americans think we're so important that we won't have to suffer real persecution like the Romans, and the Chinese, and the poor Christians of Sudan, and Bosnia, and Egypt, and Palestine,, and Syria. We're special. We get to escape the tribulation because we're better. Not.
And how can the tribulation come before the antichrist is revealed when Jesus told us WHEN YOU see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place as spoken through Daniel the prophet. So going over to Daniel the prophet to see what he said about it, IN Chapter 12 Daniel spells it out pretty good for us. "Now at that time Michael the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book will be rescued. 2. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

I would also refer you to Daniel 10:29-35.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: jeager on Mon Mar 20, 2017 - 15:25:53
Rapture doctrine did not exist before John Darby invented it in 1830 AD. Before it "popped into John Darby's head" no one had ever heard of a secret rapture doctrine.

http://www.bible.ca/rapture-origin-john-nelson-darby-1830ad.htm (http://www.bible.ca/rapture-origin-john-nelson-darby-1830ad.htm)

^^^ Lots more on the Web and in libraries if one seeks the truth.

Rapture = INVENTED by a mere human in relative modern history.

Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: notreligus on Tue Mar 21, 2017 - 15:41:25
I have not personally read the doctrines or teachings of persons mentioned in this article, but there are many folk mentioned here who preceded John Darby that made claims about end-times that fit into a framework of the belief of a rapture of the church.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Believer%27s%20Corner/Doctrines/rapture_history.htm (http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Believer%27s%20Corner/Doctrines/rapture_history.htm)

The future of the nation of Israel has been and remains such a mystery to so many, and it seems to me that this idea that the church must be out of the way to make room for Israel's inclusion is what drives the various beliefs about why the church will be raptured before the return of Christ.   We in the church generally don't see Christ in the Old Testament - so many claim He didn't even exist before He was born in human form - and the Old Testament refers to Israel as God Almighty's wife.    So when we don't "rightly divide," to borrow from the Berean Dispensationals, we come up with wrong conclusions and present them to others as fact that really can't be supported.   If we would see that the Bible is about redemption with Christ being the central figure many of these doctrines would lose support.   In the meantime there are many who are profiting on the sales of books and movies.   
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: jeager on Wed Mar 22, 2017 - 00:35:12
Sigh.
It's no wonder that there at least 33,000 denominations of Christians all
reading the same book. ::frustrated::
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: dpr on Tue Apr 07, 2020 - 01:19:10
Oh, and FYI, my post was NOT... about a Pre-tribulational Rapture theory. I believe in a post-tribulational coming of Christ Jesus to gather His Church, as written.

But the idea of those still alive on earth being changed and then "caught up" to Jesus coming in the clouds, that is not supposition or made up by man. It is a testimony directly from the Scriptures of God's Word, and the Greek word that defines it per the New Testament manuscripts is the word harpazo. The Latin version of that Greek word translated to English simply is the word 'rapture'.

So there will... be a literal 'rapture' of Christ's Church that's still alive on earth on the day of His future 2nd coming. It's just not going to happen PRIOR to the tribulation like those on man's Pre-trib Rapture theory believe, and that's the difference.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: Rella on Tue Apr 07, 2020 - 07:21:26


But the idea of those still alive on earth being changed and then "caught up" to Jesus coming in the clouds,

So there will... be a literal 'rapture' of Christ's Church that's still alive on earth on the day of His future 2nd coming. It's just not going to happen PRIOR to the tribulation like those on man's Pre-trib Rapture theory believe, and that's the difference.

Darn it.

I was hoping something would get me out of this house. ::whistle::
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Tue Apr 07, 2020 - 08:28:00
Dpr, you and I at least agree that the “rapture” is immediately post-tribulational, but of course we part company in understanding when that Great Tribulation took place - which was back in the first century from AD 66-70.

You, of course, and those who follow your position have absolutely no explanation of why Christ prophesied that there would continue to be lesser periods of tribulation AFTER THAT GREAT TRIBULATION that would never be able to compare with the severity of that former time.  The Great Tribulation was to be like no other either BEFORE THEN, or even *AFTERWARD* (“...no, nor ever SHALL BE” - Matt. 24:21).  This means time was going to march on for quite a while *AFTER* CHRIST’s SECOND COMING, which IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWED that Great Tribulation with no time interval between (Matthew 24:29-31).

And you have indeed invented a translation-type of change to immortality for the bodies of living believers who have not passed through the appointed one-time death process.  Scripture makes NO SUCH PROMISE to us.   This is a man-made presumption that has traditionally been falsely imposed on the I Thess. 4 and I Cor. 15:51 verses that describe the “rapture”.

You are missing a word in your interpretation. Scripture’s description involves more than just those who are “alive” who were to be  caught up in the clouds to meet Christ; they would be those who are “alive and *REMAIN*” who were caught up.  Do you even realize the significance of that?  The use of that Greek word imposes a kind of RESERVED STATUS on those “living” ones.  They were a distinctive group that had been SET APART FOR A SPECIFIC PURPOSE.  (An example of this word use is “...there REMAINETH therefore a rest for the people of God.”  A certain rest was RESERVED, or set apart for the people of God.)

This is just like the 144,000 First-fruits Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints coming from the First Resurrection along with Christ, who were given the “SEAL OF THE LIVING GOD”, and were put in a reserved, protected status according to Rev. 7:2 and 14:1. 

I contend that this RESERVED, “REMAINING” status for these “alive” saints in I Thess. 4 was their being ALREADY-resurrected individuals (like the Matthew 27:52-63 saints) who had been made “alive” by being given incorruptible immortal bodies - like Dorcas who had been “presented alive” to her friends in Acts 9:41. 

It has absolutely nothing to do with the false idea of the bodies of ordinary living believers who haven’t died yet being so-called “translated” at Christ’s return(s).
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: dpr on Tue Apr 07, 2020 - 16:29:22
Dpr, you and I at least agree that the “rapture” is immediately post-tribulational, but of course we part company in understanding when that Great Tribulation took place - which was back in the first century from AD 66-70.

Nah, the time of "great tribulation" Jesus warned of is for the very end of this world, just prior to His 2nd coming. It has not happened yet. With that Sign He gave the coming of the final Antichrist, the pseudo-Christ He warned would, IF possible, deceive even His very elect by the working of great signs and wonders. That didn't happen in 70 A.D., nor any time after to this day.

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You, of course, and those who follow your position have absolutely no explanation of why Christ prophesied that there would continue to be lesser periods of tribulation AFTER THAT GREAT TRIBULATION that would never be able to compare with the severity of that former time.  The Great Tribulation was to be like no other either BEFORE THEN, or even *AFTERWARD* (“...no, nor ever SHALL BE” - Matt. 24:21).  This means time was going to march on for quite a while *AFTER* CHRIST’s SECOND COMING, which IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWED that Great Tribulation with no time interval between (Matthew 24:29-31).

Nah, I follow God's Word as written in its simplicity. It's not that difficult, one just has to decide if they're going to listen to God in His Word, or listen to men's doctrines. It's you that's following men's doctrines of Preterism, and they don't have much respect for God's Word as written, and instead like to just play religion.

See, you can't even explain what Jesus said properly in your own words. He said it will be a great tribulation such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, nor ever shall be. That idea means it will be a time on earth never seen before, nor ever will again. He's actually quoting from Daniel 12:1...

Dan 12:1
12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
KJV

The reason why the time of great tribulation will never be seen again is because Jesus returns to end it. And that is what that Daniel 12:1 shows with those being delivered, which is also what the Matthew 24:21-31 Scripture shows, applied to both Israel and His Church. Thusly, there is no time gap between the end of the tribulation, because Jesus' 2nd coming is what ends it. For Preterism to be true, which says that tribulation happened back in the Apostle's days, there would have to be a time gap between it and the future when Jesus' 2nd coming happens. There isn't, simply because Jesus' LITERAL return as written has not happened yet today.

I don't have time for the rest of your false accusations, they are just make-believe ideas with absolutely no substance.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Wed Apr 08, 2020 - 02:03:21
Are you serious dpr?

Do you really not see that the words  “such as” is talking about OTHER periods of tribulation that would be compared to the period of the Great Tribulation, but which would never equal it or even surpass it in the future, AFTER it was over?  It never fails to astound me how people can stumble over simple English words and phrases...

A comparable statement could be made, for example, if we said “There has never been a presidency such as President Trump’s since there was a nation, no, nor ever shall be.”  You would naturally assume that there will be FUTURE PRESIDENCIES FOLLOWING THAT OF PRESIDENT TRUMP BEING IN OFFICE.  Just as there were going to be FUTURE TIMES OF TRIBULATION following AFTER the Great Tribulation, but which would never be “such as” the Great Tribulation had been before then. 

Conclusion: the Great Tribulation was never going to be occurring at the very end of fallen man’s history on this planet, and Christ’s  second coming that would be  “immediately after” that Great Tribulation would be followed by those OTHER periods of lesser tribulation for the nations.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: dpr on Wed Apr 08, 2020 - 13:02:53
Are you serious dpr?

Do you really not see that the words  “such as” is talking about OTHER periods of tribulation that would be compared to the period of the Great Tribulation, but which would never equal it or even surpass it in the future, AFTER it was over?  It never fails to astound me how people can stumble over simple English words and phrases...

It is you... that needs to get serious about following English grammar instead of making up baloney ideas like "such as" meaning something other than just a relative pronoun like 'which'. Preterists idiotic abuse of "at hand" is bad enough, but your attempt to rewrite English grammar on a basic connecting word like "such as" (which serves as 'which'), is just even more idiotic.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Wed Apr 08, 2020 - 20:33:03
Dpr,

You need to please look up the use of a simile in English grammar.  The word “Like” or “as” is our cue that we have found two separate  things that are being compared.  The words  “Such AS”  found in Matt. 24:21 are forming a comparison between two separate things.   You cannot substitute the word “which” without changing the meaning entirely.

I still maintain that my Conclusion is spot on in agreement with scripture regarding future times of tribulation AFTER the Great Tribulation and Christ’s return that immediately followed it.  Which demands a THIRD COMING of Christ to bodily resurrect the saints that will have lived and died under the New Covenant.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: dpr on Thu Apr 09, 2020 - 12:27:42
Dpr,

You need to please look up the use of a simile in English grammar.  The word “Like” or “as” is our cue that we have found two separate  things that are being compared.  The words  “Such AS”  found in Matt. 24:21 are forming a comparison between two separate things.   You cannot substitute the word “which” without changing the meaning entirely.

I still maintain that my Conclusion is spot on in agreement with scripture regarding future times of tribulation AFTER the Great Tribulation and Christ’s return that immediately followed it.  Which demands a THIRD COMING of Christ to bodily resurrect the saints that will have lived and died under the New Covenant.

Anyway, the phrase "such as" is NOT the original language in the text. The Greek word that is... simply means 'which'...

NT:3634
hoios (hoy'-os); probably akin to NT:3588, NT:3739, and NT:3745; such or what sort of (as a correlation or exclamation); especially the neuter (adverbial) with negative, not so:

KJV - so (as), such as, what (manner of), which.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)


There is NO third coming of Christ. God's Word only declares TWO, not three. Even in the OT prophets only 2 comings are declared...


Zech.9:9 is Christ's 1st coming, and verse 10 is Christ's 2nd coming:

Zech 9:9-10
9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from river even to the ends of the earth.
KJV


Men's doctrine of Preterism does the error that Futurists also make with ADDING another coming of Christ that is NOT written.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
Post by: BlessedCreator on Sat Apr 18, 2020 - 18:27:36
There is no end time 7 year tribulation period. Neither does the rapture happen until after the dead in Christ rise first on the last day. Therefore the rapture also happens on the last day. I will make a thread showing these false doctrines of a 7 year trib/early rapture timing.