Author Topic: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?  (Read 7155 times)

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Offline Tertullian

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Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« on: Thu Sep 01, 2016 - 22:57:59 »
This question is about how your beliefs have changed over time, since you first accepted Christ.   

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Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« on: Thu Sep 01, 2016 - 22:57:59 »

notreligus

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #1 on: Fri Sep 02, 2016 - 12:49:17 »
The Pre-Trib rapture teaching is based on the belief that the Church will be taken from the Earth while God deals with Israel during the period of wrath which God allows Satan to inflict and the next round of unleashed wrath from God, i.e. the Great Tribulation.   There are variants of this teaching but all variants come back to this.   

In Christ one new man has been created.   In Christ Jews and Gentiles are not separate races or ethnic groups.   We see the results of the teaching of separate races in what men like Al Sharpton do.   They claim to be Christians but they promote racism and they misrepresent God as though He were a racist.   Christ has torn down the dividing walls but we sinful humans (forgiven but still with a tendency toward sin) are busing rebuilding walls of separation.   (No Trump inference intended.)   We wrongly teach that even after Christ has fulfilled the Law that the Father intends to restore the Law with animal sacrifices in the new millennial Temple to point to Christ.   The entire Bible points to Jesus Christ, beginning in Genesis when God provided a sin covering for Adam and Eve.   Jesus told the Jews in John Chapter Five that they already knew Who He was and had rejected what Moses had told them in advance about Him.   Christians use the Bible like a smorgasbord and select what they want to believe and then they selectively choose Scripture as "proof texts."  I say to look from Genesis to Revelation and you will find Jesus already there.   He was not hiding from the Jews.  The Mystery was not that Jesus was to come but that He would restore a right relationship between God and all of mankind.   Jews believe that it would take God to restore all of mankind to Him.  A reading of the beliefs of Judaism will reveal this to anyone who is interested in the truth.  Since they reject that Jesus is God they do not believe that God has restored mankind to Himself and they, as individuals, are to do good works for the benefit of mankind to be worthy of God's approval.   

Offline RB

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #2 on: Fri Sep 02, 2016 - 15:13:03 »
This question is about how your beliefs have changed over time, since you first accepted Christ.
"Yes.  I was taught the Pretribulation Rapture, but I no longer believe it". Back in early seventies, living in the so-called Bible belt of the world, Greenville, S.C. (Bob Jones University; The Gospel hour with Dr. Oliver B. Greene; and Tabernacle Baptist Church~ Dr. Harold B. Sightler.... I even sat under his teaching in bible school) I was taught this lie and and held to it for around four years, until I realized that I could not defend it with the word of God, and so abandoned it for the truth that I could see and support with the word of God.   
« Last Edit: Fri Sep 02, 2016 - 15:16:56 by RB »

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #3 on: Fri Sep 02, 2016 - 17:11:31 »
RB,  I have to smile at your use of the "Bible belt" term because I joke with my family sometimes that, since I grew up a few hundred yards from Oliver B. Greene's Gospel Hour facility, I can claim that I lived on the tip of the prong of the buckle on the Bible belt.  Similar to your case, I had the Tabernacle / Bob Jones pre-mil disp. teaching infused into my young brain from infancy onward.  Most (if not all) of this I have had to lay aside in order to stay true to what God has revealed to me in His word.  With that being said, I do retain a fervent gratitude to my parents for their efforts to instill a love of the scriptures in us.  They were willing to sacrifice much in order to keep us continually exposed to God's word as long as we were under their roof, and for that I thank God for them.

It's strange, but the same familiarity with the scripture that was drilled into us from the start is the very means I have relied upon to counter the positions I was taught.  I do still almost daily listen to the WTBI radio station in the workroom, simply to enjoy some of the heartfelt, uninhibited preaching, but also for the mental exercise of challenging their positions from the scripture where they go offtrack.

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #3 on: Fri Sep 02, 2016 - 17:11:31 »
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Offline Charlie24

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #4 on: Fri Sep 02, 2016 - 18:03:12 »
I find this pretty interesting. We have 2 guys taught the pre-trib doctrine from the same area that no longer believe in it. I also spent 6 years in that same area being taught the same doctrine, but I still believe it.

The interesting part is what exactly caused this? What was the scripture that changed your minds?

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #4 on: Fri Sep 02, 2016 - 18:03:12 »



Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #5 on: Fri Sep 02, 2016 - 22:09:13 »
Charlie24, if you spent that many years in this area, you probably are acquainted with the point of view regarding the "authorized 1611 KJV only" that seems to be popular in this sector (particularly at Tabernacle).  In addition to this school's influence, I attended churches in this area that also used this version exclusively, and which derided the use of the original languages as a corrupting influence for ordinary English-speaking people.  One church's pastor actually recommended correcting the Greek by using the English where the two appeared to differ.  I swallowed this inverted thinking for years.

Not anymore.  It was only when I started using the YLT or the Interlinear version and the Septuagint for daily Bible reading (along with the KJV for comparison) that I began to see places in the KJV where the use of rather generic terms had obscured the true meaning in many passages.  It's as if the translators tried to use the safest choice of words that wouldn't trigger a rejection of their work by King James.  The result of their considerable labor was a good translation that God has indeed blessed, but that unfortunately has blurred the meaning of A LOT of references with time markers in them.

For just one example, there is a world of difference between the KJV  "...there SHALL BE a resurrection of the dead, both the just and the unjust" and the Interlinear rendering "...a resurrection IS ABOUT TO BE of the dead, both of just and of unjust."  By reading the Interlinear or the YLT versions of the NT, it reveals the imminence factor that is prevalent throughout much of the NT, but that is absent in the KJV.  Using this method of reading through scripture each year has erased most of my prior understanding of when certain prophecies were to take place, and instead shifted the fulfillment of many of them from our future to our past.  This transforms the study of "last things" into a study of "past things" in many instances.

So, to answer your question, it isn't any one verse or even a few verses that have changed my viewpoint - it is the totality of scripture being read in these versions that have forced me to read it VERY.  VERY.  SLOWLY.  ONE.  WORD.  AT.  A.  TIME.  That, and being willing to admit that I have been wrong in my understanding for much of my life, and will still need to keep verifying my viewpoints by continued study of God's word. 

Offline RB

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #6 on: Sat Sep 03, 2016 - 04:25:20 »
I do still almost daily listen to the WTBI radio station in the workroom, simply to enjoy some of the heartfelt, uninhibited preaching, but also for the mental exercise of challenging their positions from the scripture where they go offtrack.
I'm with you on listening to WTBI~I do it more to see what they preaching~my wife just cannot stomach much of what they have to say, nevertheless, we know there are some good people there who do believe in God, even though they think that I'm the heretic. NOW, you have me wondering again WHO YOU ARE! This is not fair to me. You said that you have been in my house, yet I cannot save the life of me, put a face on you! You are torturing me my brother! Nevertheless, I do enjoy and love the spirit that you conduct yourself with and write with. One these days I'm going to put a face on you, just give me time.  ::smile:: 
« Last Edit: Sat Sep 03, 2016 - 04:36:47 by RB »

Offline RB

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #7 on: Sat Sep 03, 2016 - 04:33:58 »
I also spent 6 years in that same area being taught the same doctrine, but I still believe it.
Charlie, my brother, I'm sorry you still believe that lie. As a young believer, I use to hear Mr. Greene say: "Bless God, I still believe the same thing that I believe when I first started out over thirty years ago"~those words still echo in my head with his thundering voice. Sad, that one would confess that he has never grow in grace and truth from day one, which means that they just accepted what others said, without trying every man's spirit with the word of God.  By the grace of God, I have went through SEVERAL conversions on other doctrines from when I first started out.

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #8 on: Sat Sep 03, 2016 - 11:36:04 »
It takes facts, scriptural facts, for me to change my belief on doctrine. I've found none in the past 30 years or so. I guess I was lucky to be taught the truth from the beginning.

I've seen several new doctrines that appear from first glance to be of substance, but when I went to the scripture I found fault and error.

What are some of the FACTS you guys have found that puts me in error with the pre-trib rapture?

Offline dpr

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #9 on: Sun Sep 04, 2016 - 09:12:34 »
The Church I was raised in did not teach much endtime prophecy as to when Christ's coming and our gathering would be. I had to discover what God's Word says about it myself with God's help.

What I discovered was the same thing the early 1st century Church fathers understood and wrote, that Christ's 2nd coming is at the end of the tribulation after Antichrist's coming. It's then that Jesus will gather all of His Church, the asleep saints from heaven and the alive saints on earth, which is when the resurrection happens.


Offline RB

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #10 on: Sun Sep 04, 2016 - 15:38:16 »
The Church I was raised in did not teach much endtime prophecy as to when Christ's coming and our gathering would be. I had to discover what God's Word says about it myself with God's help. What I discovered was the same thing the early 1st century Church fathers understood and wrote, that Christ's 2nd coming is at the end of the tribulation after Antichrist's coming. It's then that Jesus will gather all of His Church, the asleep saints from heaven and the alive saints on earth, which is when the resurrection happens.
What little you said, and what I'm reading, and the order in which you stated your your confession, I would say that you did quite well in coming to the knowledge of he truth

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #11 on: Sun Sep 04, 2016 - 17:17:24 »
The Church I was raised in did not teach much endtime prophecy as to when Christ's coming and our gathering would be. I had to discover what God's Word says about it myself with God's help.

What I discovered was the same thing the early 1st century Church fathers understood and wrote, that Christ's 2nd coming is at the end of the tribulation after Antichrist's coming. It's then that Jesus will gather all of His Church, the asleep saints from heaven and the alive saints on earth, which is when the resurrection happens.

Just something for you to consider, dpr.

Christ is called the "firstfruits" of the resurrection for a reason. He is compared in scripture to the firstfruits of the harvest.

The Jewish harvest took place in 3 phases which was written in the law of Moses.

The 1st phase is recorded in Lev. 23:9-10, it is the firstfruits.
"And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest."

The 2nd phase was of course, the main crop of the harvest.

The 3rd phase was what was left from the main harvest, the gleaning. If you remember, Ruth met Boaz while she was gleaning in the fields.


This is the symbolic picture of the 1st resurrection taking place in 3 phases.

1st phase   Christ is the firstfruits of the harvest.

2nd phase  The rapture of the church is the main body of the harvest.

3rd phase   Those who were led to Christ during the tribulation are the gleaning of the harvest.


The Lord will meet the saints in the air at the main body of harvest. After the great tribulation the angels will gather the gleanings at the second coming.

Offline Star of David

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #12 on: Sun Sep 04, 2016 - 17:48:35 »



This belief in a Rapture is based on one or more very flimsy scriptures and someone came up with this odd event less than 200 years ago.

In other words, there shall never be this embarrassing event called a "Rapture". This is where I have stood for over 20 years now.


Offline dpr

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #13 on: Mon Sep 05, 2016 - 15:44:31 »

Just something for you to consider, dpr.

Christ is called the "firstfruits" of the resurrection for a reason. He is compared in scripture to the firstfruits of the harvest.

The Jewish harvest took place in 3 phases which was written in the law of Moses.

The 1st phase is recorded in Lev. 23:9-10, it is the firstfruits.
"And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest."

The 2nd phase was of course, the main crop of the harvest.

The 3rd phase was what was left from the main harvest, the gleaning. If you remember, Ruth met Boaz while she was gleaning in the fields.


This is the symbolic picture of the 1st resurrection taking place in 3 phases.

1st phase   Christ is the firstfruits of the harvest.

2nd phase  The rapture of the church is the main body of the harvest.

3rd phase   Those who were led to Christ during the tribulation are the gleaning of the harvest.


The Lord will meet the saints in the air at the main body of harvest. After the great tribulation the angels will gather the gleanings at the second coming.

To understand how Apostle Paul meant this...

1 Cor 15:23
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming.
KJV



It's important to understand this first...

1 Cor 15:51-52
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
KJV


Because Jesus told us in John 5 when the event of the "resurrection of life" regarding the "asleep" saints will be...


John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV



So our Lord Jesus does represent the firstfruits of the harvest per the OT. But the main harvest that is next is on the day of Jesus' 2nd coming on "the day of the Lord" which comes "as a thief in the night."

So when... is that "day of the Lord" event per God's Word?

It is on the FINAL DAY of this present world. It is when God pours out His cup of wrath upon the wicked, especially the armies out of the northern quarters that come upon Israel on the last day, at Armageddon. That is on the final 7th Vial per Rev.16.

Isa 13:6-9
6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:

8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.

9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and He shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
KJV


Even Apostle Peter revealed this event from Isaiah in the 2 Peter 3 Chapter...

2 Peter 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
KJV


Notice what is to occur on that "day of the Lord". The elements of man's works are to be burned off this earth. So how can the tribulation be happening once man's works are burned off this earth??? Elsewhere in God's OT prophets, that event of sudden destruction Paul mentioned is to occur "at an instant, suddenly" (Isaiah 29:5). That means it's impossible for that "day of the Lord" event to occur prior to the great tribulation.


Offline Charlie24

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #14 on: Mon Sep 05, 2016 - 16:04:50 »
Everything concerning the "day of the Lord" and the "thief in the night" are speaking of the second coming.

I believe the saints will meet Jesus in the air before this takes place, for several reasons.

It's just another rapture argument, I wanted to show you the harvest. The Lord will set it straight one day and we'll have nothing to argue about.

Offline dpr

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #15 on: Mon Sep 05, 2016 - 16:21:22 »

....

The 3rd phase was what was left from the main harvest, the gleaning. If you remember, Ruth met Boaz while she was gleaning in the fields.

This is the symbolic picture of the 1st resurrection taking place in 3 phases.

1st phase   Christ is the firstfruits of the harvest.

2nd phase  The rapture of the church is the main body of the harvest.

3rd phase   Those who were led to Christ during the tribulation are the gleaning of the harvest.
....

If Jesus' gathering of His Church, both the "asleep" saints and His saints still alive on earth on the day of His return after the tribulation is the main body harvest (which it is), then when is the time of gleaning? That should be your next question after reading my previous post.

This next idea not many will agree with me on. Yet no one will be able to disprove it per God's Word, because it is what God's Word reveals.

QUESTION: What is the implied 2nd resurrection of Revelation 20 about?

First consider what our Lord Jesus revealed in John 5:28-29 that BOTH, the "resurrection of life" and the "resurrection of damnation" occur on the day of His 2nd coming. That's what He showed there. What does that do to man's tradition that the wicked aren't resurrected until the end of Christ's 1,000 years reign of Rev.20? It creates a conflict.

Also, what does the fact that the "nations" which Satan will deceive to go up against the "camp of the saints" on earth reflect, since they are shown existing throughout Christ's 1,000 years reign also? Why would there be the 'wicked dead' not yet raised, while there's 'wicked alive' that go through Christ's 1,000 years?

But alas, John 5:28-29 to the rescue, because our Lord Jesus revealed the "asleep" saints and the wicked dead are both raised on the same day of His 2nd coming. That points to those "nations" of Rev.20 including the wicked dead that are raised at Jesus' coming.

In Revelation 3, we have an interesting promise Jesus made to His elect of the Church of Philadelphia. He told them He would make those of the synagogue of Satan to come worship at the feet of His elect. We know that has never happened in this world, not even to this day. It is reserved for the time of Christ's 1,000 years reign with His elect. And you can't point to any more of a wicked group of men than the synagogue of Satan which Jesus showed. So they are... there, during Jesus' future 1,000 years reign, under His "rod of iron" for that time like The Father promised (Ps.2).

In Revelation 20 we are told that those of the "first resurrection" cannot be subject to the "second death", which is the casting into the "lake of fire" at the end of the 1,000 years. That's about Christ's elect that will rule with Him. That 1st resurrection is the "resurrection of life" of John 5:28-29.

When an ordinal number like "first" is given, that automatically implies at least one more is to happen. But who says it has to be a resurrection of the wicked dead, just because of the end of Rev.20 mentioning the sea and hell giving up its dead?

Because John 5:28-29 about the wicked dead raised happens at the start of the 1,000 years, God's Word is actually pointing to the 2nd resurrection at God's Great White Throne Judgment being about the spiritually dead that accepted Jesus DURING the 1,000. It's another resurrection unto LIFE! not a resurrection of the wicked which is popularly taught.

So when Rev.20:5 says the "dead" lived not again until the thousand years was over, it is pointing to the spiritually dead, not literally still dead in graves. And in that time, the idea of 'Living' means being of the resurrection of Life.

All this because 1 Corinthians 15 and Isaiah 25 about death being swallowed up reveals we all... will be in the resurrection type body for Christ's 1,000 years, including the wicked, especially those called the "resurrection of damnation".

In other words, after God's consuming fire event (end of Heb.12; 2 Pet.3) on the "day of the Lord" when Jesus comes, that will END the things of this present world, including the idea of flesh death. This is why the only... type of death Rev.20 mentions is the "SECOND DEATH". Only those in Christ Jesus will not be subject to that "second death".








Offline dpr

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #16 on: Mon Sep 05, 2016 - 16:37:21 »
Everything concerning the "day of the Lord" and the "thief in the night" are speaking of the second coming.

I believe the saints will meet Jesus in the air before this takes place, for several reasons.

It's just another rapture argument, I wanted to show you the harvest. The Lord will set it straight one day and we'll have nothing to argue about.

I assume you haven't read my last post yet, but I'll post now anyway.

The Pre-trib Rapture school has traditionally used certain phrases from Apostle Paul in 1 Thess.5., like these...

"Jesus comes 'as a thief in the night' ", (because no one knows the day or hour, this idea taught along with their imminent idea that Jesus can come at any moment).

"We are not appointed to 'wrath'."


Because their use of those phrases are incomplete ideas compared to the 1 Thess.5 context, it's easy for them to propose a different timing.

But per the actual context of the 1 Thess.5 chapter, Paul said it was the "day of the Lord" event that will come "as a thief in the night".

In Rev.16:15, on the 6th Vial, Jesus is speaking to His Church still on earth, He says He comes "as a thief". And that links back to what Paul taught about that "as a thief in the night".

Paul then mentions about the wicked deceived when they say, "Peace and safety", then "sudden destruction" will come upon 'them'.

Paul was pulling from the OT prophets with that "sudden destruction" idea, it's about the "day of the Lord" event on the last day. That is the day God pours out His cup of WRATH upon the wicked on earth. That's the day He burns the sinners out of the earth per Isaiah. That's why... Paul said we are not appointed to 'wrath' in that 1 Thess.5 chapter. He was not talking about Satan's wrath we will go through during the tribulation.

By not going through the whole chapter, line upon line, and paying close attention to Paul's subject, that is how some brethren allow themselves to be easily misled with doctrines of men.

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #17 on: Mon Sep 05, 2016 - 17:02:00 »
I'm sorry dpr, but you need to go back to the scripture and get it right. You have several mistakes in your post. You must understand the facts of scripture before placing a timeline.

The first and second resurrections are separated by 1000 years.

Rev. 20:4-5
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

The bold is telling us that the dead outside of Christ have not been resurrected, but those who had the witness of Jesus lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. This is the first resurrection of the just. It's the 3rd phase of the first resurrection, the gleanings of the harvest.

Those who "lived not again" are the lost from the beginning of time until after the 1000 year reign with Christ. If you read on you will see in vs. 11-15 is the Great White throne of judgment where all the lost of all time are judged. Everyone who was not found written in the book of life were cast into the lake of fire. This is the one and only second resurrection of the damned. The last phase of the first resurrection and the second resurrection are separated by one thousand years. 

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #18 on: Mon Sep 05, 2016 - 17:03:00 »
The definitive commentary on the end times is "Left Behind."

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #19 on: Tue Sep 06, 2016 - 05:32:58 »
I'm sorry dpr, but you need to go back to the scripture and get it right. You have several mistakes in your post. You must understand the facts of scripture before placing a timeline.

The first and second resurrections are separated by 1000 years.

Rev. 20:4-5
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

The bold is telling us that the dead outside of Christ have not been resurrected, but those who had the witness of Jesus lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. This is the first resurrection of the just. It's the 3rd phase of the first resurrection, the gleanings of the harvest.

Those who "lived not again" are the lost from the beginning of time until after the 1000 year reign with Christ. If you read on you will see in vs. 11-15 is the Great White throne of judgment where all the lost of all time are judged. Everyone who was not found written in the book of life were cast into the lake of fire. This is the one and only second resurrection of the damned. The last phase of the first resurrection and the second resurrection are separated by one thousand years.

Explain this then:

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV


That strikes out man's theory that the 2nd implied resurrection is about a resurrection of the wicked.

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #20 on: Tue Sep 06, 2016 - 06:16:58 »
I'm sorry dpr, but you need to go back to the scripture and get it right. You have several mistakes in your post. You must understand the facts of scripture before placing a timeline.

The first and second resurrections are separated by 1000 years.

Rev. 20:4-5
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

The bold is telling us that the dead outside of Christ have not been resurrected, but those who had the witness of Jesus lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. This is the first resurrection of the just. It's the 3rd phase of the first resurrection, the gleanings of the harvest.

Those who "lived not again" are the lost from the beginning of time until after the 1000 year reign with Christ. If you read on you will see in vs. 11-15 is the Great White throne of judgment where all the lost of all time are judged. Everyone who was not found written in the book of life were cast into the lake of fire. This is the one and only second resurrection of the damned. The last phase of the first resurrection and the second resurrection are separated by one thousand years.

Explain this then:

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV


That strikes out man's theory that the 2nd implied resurrection is about a resurrection of the wicked.

Paul said there will be two resurrections.

Acts 24:15
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

John explains the resurrections in Rev. 20 as I have shown you.

The second death (Rev. 20:6) is eternal separation from God, and is cast into the lake of fire.

The resurrection of those who take part in the second death takes place in Rev. 20:12-14.

They are resurrected and judged 1000 years after the first resurrection of the just.


Offline dpr

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #21 on: Wed Sep 07, 2016 - 00:20:54 »

Paul said there will be two resurrections.

Acts 24:15
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

John explains the resurrections in Rev. 20 as I have shown you.

The second death (Rev. 20:6) is eternal separation from God, and is cast into the lake of fire.

The resurrection of those who take part in the second death takes place in Rev. 20:12-14.

They are resurrected and judged 1000 years after the first resurrection of the just.

Explain this then:

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV

That strikes out man's theory that the 2nd implied resurrection is about a resurrection of the wicked.

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #22 on: Wed Sep 07, 2016 - 05:40:55 »

Paul said there will be two resurrections.

Acts 24:15
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

John explains the resurrections in Rev. 20 as I have shown you.

The second death (Rev. 20:6) is eternal separation from God, and is cast into the lake of fire.

The resurrection of those who take part in the second death takes place in Rev. 20:12-14.

They are resurrected and judged 1000 years after the first resurrection of the just.

Explain this then:

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV

That strikes out man's theory that the 2nd implied resurrection is about a resurrection of the wicked.

There is a time when all which are in the graves will hear His voice.

The resurrection of life and the resurrection of damnation.

Count 'em, there's two. Rev. 20 clearly teaches these two resurrections DO NOT take place at the same time.

Offline dpr

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #23 on: Wed Sep 07, 2016 - 08:11:55 »

There is a time when all which are in the graves will hear His voice.

The resurrection of life and the resurrection of damnation.

Count 'em, there's two. Rev. 20 clearly teaches these two resurrections DO NOT take place at the same time.

You're not rightly dividing the John 5:28-29 Scripture:

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV


When the Scripture pinpoints to a certain "hour" when ALL in the graves hear His voice, that is a one time event, the event of His coming on the day of The Lord when the last trump sounds:

1 Thess 4:16
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
KJV


1 Cor 15:52
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
KJV



The "dead" of Rev.20:5 who lived not again until the 1,000 years were over... are the saved of the nations that refuse to go against the "camp of the saints" at the end of the 1,000 years.

Rev 20:7-8
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog , to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
KJV



Offline dpr

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #24 on: Wed Sep 07, 2016 - 08:36:17 »
So there's an obvious problem with ideas of thinking John 5:28-29 is only about those in Christ of the 1st resurrection.

That kind of error in thinking is because of wanting to hold onto a tradition from men, instead of believing God's Word how it's actually written.

One of the reasons for those errors in thinking is from the lack of OT Bible study that many pastors and seminary preachers are still weak in:

This Isaiah 25 Scripture is where Apostle Paul was teaching from in 1 Corinthians 15 about death being swallowed up in victory on the last trump:

[purple]Isa 25:5-9
5 Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low.

6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

7 And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

8 [bold]He will swallow up death in victory[/bold]; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

9 And it shall be said in that day, "Lo, This is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us: This is the LORD; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation."
KJV[/purple]


In verse 7, the "face of the covering" and the "vail" that is spread over all nations is a metaphor for the limitations of this present world. When Jesus comes, the works of of this world will perish in God's consuming fire (end of Hebrews 12; 2 Pet.3:10). The world as we now know it will be changed, and we ourselves also will be changed to the "spiritual body", which is an outward body image likeness of the heavenly dimension. Some brethren still have a very, very hard time understanding this.
[purple]
1 Cor 15:49
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, [bold]we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.[/bold]
KJV
[/purple]

We shall also bear the image of the heavenly, Paul said. The image of the heavenly is a "spiritual body", not a flesh body. And have the wicked today borne the image of the earthy??? Yes, and likewise they also will bear the image of the heavenly.

Having the image of the heavenly is NOT Christ's Salvation. Having the heavenly outward likeness is only one part needed. The other part required is for our soul to be made immortal, because only through Faith on The Father through His Son Jesus Christ can the soul be made immortal. Apostle Paul well covered that point too in 1 Cor.15:53-54, so weren't these doubting brethren paying attention???

To be one of the "dead" during the 1,000 years reign of Christ, it means still having a soul that is liable to perish. It doesn't matter if the unsaved in that time also have the outward bodily heavenly image, their soul will still be in a mortal, liable to die condition, being without Christ and not having been 'born again' of The Spirit. So the real idea of the Rev.20:5 "dead" in that time is about the spiritually dead souls, [bold]and not about the dead still in literal graves.[/bold]




Offline Charlie24

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #25 on: Wed Sep 07, 2016 - 08:52:37 »

There is a time when all which are in the graves will hear His voice.

The resurrection of life and the resurrection of damnation.

Count 'em, there's two. Rev. 20 clearly teaches these two resurrections DO NOT take place at the same time.

You're not rightly dividing the John 5:28-29 Scripture:

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV


When the Scripture pinpoints to a certain "hour" when ALL in the graves hear His voice, that is a one time event, the event of His coming on the day of The Lord when the last trump sounds:

1 Thess 4:16
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
KJV


1 Cor 15:52
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
KJV



The "dead" of Rev.20:5 who lived not again until the 1,000 years were over... are the saved of the nations that refuse to go against the "camp of the saints" at the end of the 1,000 years.

Rev 20:7-8
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog , to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
KJV


OK dpr, if you will be patient, I will be patient, until you see what is happening. We will get to Gog and Magog, but first you must see something.

Do you agree that the dead "who lived not again until the 1000 years were finished" is speaking of different resurrection than that of 20:4?

Offline dpr

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #26 on: Wed Sep 07, 2016 - 09:07:30 »

OK dpr, if you will be patient, I will be patient, until you see what is happening. We will get to Gog and Magog, but first you must see something.

Do you agree that the dead "who lived not again until the 1000 years were finished" is speaking of different resurrection than that of 20:4?

I agree the "dead" of Rev.20:5 is a different TYPE of resurrection that happens at the SAME time as the "first resurrection".

That is actually what the John 5:28-29 Scripture by our Lord Jesus is showing us.

Don't think I don't understand the traditional way you are thinking of that, for I do understand that tradition. Yet, it's a tradition that goes against the John 5:28-29 Scripture, and... the Isaiah 25:5-9 Scripture which even fewer brethren have a clue about.

Offline dpr

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #27 on: Wed Sep 07, 2016 - 09:19:38 »
Something brethren should think about regarding this matter of the "resurrection of damnation" that Jesus said will occur in that same "hour" all in the graves hear His voice...

When the "first resurrection" is mentioned in Rev.20, what's the significance of that ordinal number "first"? It automatically suggests another 2nd one to follow at minimum.

Hypothetically, if you were told to expect a 'first' car to come around the corner, would you automatically expect to see at least one more car to come? Yes, common sense suggests we expect to see a 2nd car.

Here's the gist of it though. Would you expect to see another 'car' come around that corner, or instead a truck, a bus, a ship, or a plane? You'd expect to see another 'car' since you were told about the 1st car.

Likewise with the 2nd implied resurrection at then end of Christ's 1,000 years reign. It is ANOTHER resurrection of The Just, not the wicked. The wicked dead are raised on the day of Christ's coming. That's why Rev.20 shows you the "dead" stand before the Great White Throne prior... to anything being said about the sea giving up the dead. Check it out.

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #28 on: Wed Sep 07, 2016 - 09:19:47 »

OK dpr, if you will be patient, I will be patient, until you see what is happening. We will get to Gog and Magog, but first you must see something.

Do you agree that the dead "who lived not again until the 1000 years were finished" is speaking of different resurrection than that of 20:4?

I agree the "dead" of Rev.20:5 is a different TYPE of resurrection that happens at the SAME time as the "first resurrection".

That is actually what the John 5:28-29 Scripture by our Lord Jesus is showing us.

Don't think I don't understand the traditional way you are thinking of that, for I do understand that tradition. Yet, it's a tradition that goes against the John 5:28-29 Scripture, and... the Isaiah 25:5-9 Scripture which even fewer brethren have a clue about.

How then do you explain the saved of 20:4 lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years, which is the first resurrection, BUT the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished?

It's impossible for these resurrections to occur at the same time.

Offline dpr

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #29 on: Wed Sep 07, 2016 - 09:28:35 »

How then do you explain the saved of 20:4 lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years, which is the first resurrection, BUT the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished?

It's impossible for these resurrections to occur at the same time.

The difference is in how you and I are thinking about that future time of Christ's 1,000 years reign.

I heed the Isaiah 25:5-9 Scripture where Paul was teaching the 'death swallowed up in victory' idea from. That vail shown there God is going to remove is pointing to this fleshy existence of today being removed, not just for His elect, but for all... nations and peoples.

So obviously, I do not believe in the dead-in-the-ground theory of man. Our flesh bodies are cast off at flesh death, and we will never need them again. The concept of the resurrection is about our souls being made immortal through Christ Jesus, and that won't occur until the last day of this world when Jesus comes, i.e., that day when all the graves also will hear His Voice, and go to their specific resurrection TYPE.

This means we all... during Christ's 1,000 years reign, will be in the resurrection body, not flesh bodies. That includes the wicked also, which are those nations dwelling outside the "camp of the saints" on earth per Rev.20, and Zech.14. The difference between them and us, like I have shown, is those spiritually "dead" will still have mortal souls subject to the "second death".

Offline dpr

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #30 on: Wed Sep 07, 2016 - 09:40:32 »
Consider something else about that Millennial time.

If John 5:28-29 didn't exist, and Isaiah 25:5-9 didn't exist, and it is as tradition says the wicked dead aren't raised until after the 1,000 years, then that suggests ONLY those in Christ are in resurrection bodies for that time, and everyone else are still in flesh bodies.

Then in Matt.10:28 when Jesus said don't fear those who can kill the body (flesh), but fear Him Who can destroy both soul and body in hell (geena - lake of fire idea), how is that meant? Think about it. If someone kills a wicked person, their flesh body is dead, going back to the elements of earthly matter per Eccl.12:5-7. Which "body" goes into the "lake of fire" later then if that wicked person still rejects Christ? It's that wicked person's spiritual body with soul that will go into the "lake of fire", not their flesh body.

After God's consuming fire event on the last day of this world, the era of man in a flesh body will be over and no more.

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #31 on: Wed Sep 07, 2016 - 09:41:43 »

How then do you explain the saved of 20:4 lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years, which is the first resurrection, BUT the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished?

It's impossible for these resurrections to occur at the same time.

The difference is in how you and I are thinking about that future time of Christ's 1,000 years reign.

I heed the Isaiah 25:5-9 Scripture where Paul was teaching the 'death swallowed up in victory' idea from. That vail shown there God is going to remove is pointing to this fleshy existence of today being removed, not just for His elect, but for all... nations and peoples.

So obviously, I do not believe in the dead-in-the-ground theory of man. Our flesh bodies are cast off at flesh death, and we will never need them again. The concept of the resurrection is about our souls being made immortal through Christ Jesus, and that won't occur until the last day of this world when Jesus comes, i.e., that day when all the graves also will hear His Voice, and go to their specific resurrection TYPE.

This means we all... during Christ's 1,000 years reign, will be in the resurrection body, not flesh bodies. That includes the wicked also, which are those nations dwelling outside the "camp of the saints" on earth per Rev.20, and Zech.14. The difference between them and us, like I have shown, is those spiritually "dead" will still have mortal souls subject to the "second death".


What is see as literal you see as symbolic or spiritual. I see nothing in John's scripture we are discussing that is anything other than literal. That would be the traditional view.

We have no common ground to discuss this! Two different worlds that can never connect.

Offline dpr

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #32 on: Wed Sep 07, 2016 - 09:53:48 »

What is see as literal you see as symbolic or spiritual. I see nothing in John's scripture we are discussing that is anything other than literal. That would be the traditional view.

We have no common ground to discuss this! Two different worlds that can never connect.

No, what I'm saying is very... literal, not any kind of spiritualization or philosophical idea you are suggesting.

John 5:28-29, our Lord Jesus' Own Words, reveals both types of resurrection occur on the same day, at that "hour" all in the graves hear His voice. That is unmistakably the final day of this world when Jesus comes to gather His Church and fight against His enemies.

What you choose to heed is a tradition from men, and that's alright, because this is one of those deeper mysteries in God's Word not everyone is given to understand.

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #33 on: Wed Sep 07, 2016 - 09:59:00 »
Consider something else about that Millennial time.

If John 5:28-29 didn't exist, and Isaiah 25:5-9 didn't exist, and it is as tradition says the wicked dead aren't raised until after the 1,000 years, then that suggests ONLY those in Christ are in resurrection bodies for that time, and everyone else are still in flesh bodies.

Then in Matt.10:28 when Jesus said don't fear those who can kill the body (flesh), but fear Him Who can destroy both soul and body in hell (geena - lake of fire idea), how is that meant? Think about it. If someone kills a wicked person, their flesh body is dead, going back to the elements of earthly matter per Eccl.12:5-7. Which "body" goes into the "lake of fire" later then if that wicked person still rejects Christ? It's that wicked person's spiritual body with soul that will go into the "lake of fire", not their flesh body.

After God's consuming fire event on the last day of this world, the era of man in a flesh body will be over and no more.

The glorified body or the resurrected body is indestructable. It's the body that Jesus had after the resurrection, a glorified body that all will have whether with Christ or in hell. It's flesh and bone that can walk through walls and disapear here and show up somewhere else, unless that person finds themselves in hell.

I read the scripture literally unless it becomes obvious that it's symbolic. You will find that less speculation is needed to make the dots connect.

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Where do you stand on the Pretribulation Rapture?
« Reply #34 on: Wed Sep 07, 2016 - 10:09:33 »

What is see as literal you see as symbolic or spiritual. I see nothing in John's scripture we are discussing that is anything other than literal. That would be the traditional view.

We have no common ground to discuss this! Two different worlds that can never connect.

No, what I'm saying is very... literal, not any kind of spiritualization or philosophical idea you are suggesting.

John 5:28-29, our Lord Jesus' Own Words, reveals both types of resurrection occur on the same day, at that "hour" all in the graves hear His voice. That is unmistakably the final day of this world when Jesus comes to gather His Church and fight against His enemies.

What you choose to heed is a tradition from men, and that's alright, because this is one of those deeper mysteries in God's Word not everyone is given to understand.

No, I don't think so. You clearly made the literal dead of 20:5 a spiritual dead because you couldn't answer the question I asked without making that change.

The saved of 20:4 did not receive the mark of the beast in their foreheads, they were beheaded, that is clearly literal.

But the very next sentence, the dead that lived not again is a spiritual death according to you. I don't think so!

 

     
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