Author Topic: Why Preterism is False  (Read 7429 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Stucky

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1295
  • Manna: 18
  • Gender: Male
  • Dedit tibi Deus a facie tua natus est.
Why Preterism is False
« on: Mon Feb 04, 2013 - 11:47:32 »
Preterism holds that prophecies such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrist, the Great Tribulation, and the Day of the Lord were fulfilled AD 70 when the Roman general Titus sacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Jewish Temple. Can you see what’s wrong with this picture?

Here's the problem with Preterism. Revelation 16:12 states that at the time of Armageddon, the Great River Euphrates will be dried up to make way for the Kings of the East to come down against Israel for the Battle of Armageddon (verse 16).
 
Preterists say that the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD was this Battle of Armageddon. Big problem: the Euphrates did not dry up. In 70 A.D. the troops who were to destroy Jerusalem at Armageddon, were to be kings of the East. However, the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70 A.D. from the West not from the East.
 
Where do they come up with their arguments? This doctrine was founded by the Jesuits back in the time of the Reformation. The The Reformers were preaching from Revelation 17 that Mystery Babylon was Rome. So the church was hemorrhaging bad. The Protestants were breaking off like crazy so the Jesuits had to stop this and explain that this was not Rome so they made up this doctrine of Preterism. So that's what the doctrine of Preterism came from. Today some have unwittingly bought into it because of a lack of breadth in their knowledge of biblical prophecy. (Mentioning that Jesuits invented it is not part of the argument for why it's false, just a detail. They originated Futurism too).
 
Another point on this is that the Book of Revelation was not even written until about 95 or 96 AD. All of our best sources say that this is true. Iraneus was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of John who wrote Revelation. Iraneus said that Polycarp told him that the book was written in the days go and of Dometian who left office around 95 or 96 AD and that's when all the exiles that were under religious persecution by Dometian were released. That's when John the Revelator was released. He then returned to deliver his messages to the seven churches of Asia.
 
The core of the belief of Preterism is Daniel 9:27 where it says that he shall confirm the covenant for seven years. This involves the teaching of Daniel's 70 weeks, one of the most important prophecies in the Bible. See about the Confirmation of the Covenant to understand this properly

Offline John 8:32

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 689
  • Manna: 22
  • Gender: Male
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #1 on: Mon Feb 04, 2013 - 12:18:45 »
I have always thought this to be a problem also...

Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The Simon Bar Kochba revolt in the 130's AD led to more death and destruction of Jews than 70AD.  None of these holds a candle to Hitler and Stalin.  So this particular prophecy falls flat on it's face if we are to believe that 70 AD was the fulfillment.

Lehigh

  • Guest
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #2 on: Mon Feb 04, 2013 - 18:11:45 »
Preterism holds that prophecies such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrist, the Great Tribulation, and the Day of the Lord were fulfilled AD 70 when the Roman general Titus sacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Jewish Temple. Can you see what’s wrong with this picture?

Here's the problem with Preterism. Revelation 16:12 states that at the time of Armageddon, the Great River Euphrates will be dried up to make way for the Kings of the East to come down against Israel for the Battle of Armageddon (verse 16).
 
Preterists say that the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD was this Battle of Armageddon. Big problem: the Euphrates did not dry up. In 70 A.D. the troops who were to destroy Jerusalem at Armageddon, were to be kings of the East. However, the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70 A.D. from the West not from the East.
 
Where do they come up with their arguments? This doctrine was founded by the Jesuits back in the time of the Reformation. The The Reformers were preaching from Revelation 17 that Mystery Babylon was Rome. So the church was hemorrhaging bad. The Protestants were breaking off like crazy so the Jesuits had to stop this and explain that this was not Rome so they made up this doctrine of Preterism. So that's what the doctrine of Preterism came from. Today some have unwittingly bought into it because of a lack of breadth in their knowledge of biblical prophecy. (Mentioning that Jesuits invented it is not part of the argument for why it's false, just a detail. They originated Futurism too).
 
Another point on this is that the Book of Revelation was not even written until about 95 or 96 AD. All of our best sources say that this is true. Iraneus was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of John who wrote Revelation. Iraneus said that Polycarp told him that the book was written in the days go and of Dometian who left office around 95 or 96 AD and that's when all the exiles that were under religious persecution by Dometian were released. That's when John the Revelator was released. He then returned to deliver his messages to the seven churches of Asia.
 
The core of the belief of Preterism is Daniel 9:27 where it says that he shall confirm the covenant for seven years. This involves the teaching of Daniel's 70 weeks, one of the most important prophecies in the Bible. See about the Confirmation of the Covenant to understand this properly


Your first mistake (I don't know where to begin) is that you read a symbolic, prophetic book like Revelation as literal!

The event is literal- it actually happened to the Jews- but the descriptions are in God's prophetic language.

I have studied Preterism for years.  I knew all the other end-time doctrines before I researched Preterism. Most of them insulted my intelligence. So with an open mind I learned the truth about God's end-time plan for mankind's salvation. (Eschatology)

Don't be afraid of what you do not know about Preterism.  Find some good staples & sources.  Don K. Preston of eschatology.com is one of the best. He was recently awarded an honorary doctorate.  His book "Who is this Babylon?" is one of my favorites.


Lehigh

  • Guest
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #3 on: Mon Feb 04, 2013 - 18:36:44 »
I have always thought this to be a problem also...

Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The Simon Bar Kochba revolt in the 130's AD led to more death and destruction of Jews than 70AD.  None of these holds a candle to Hitler and Stalin.  So this particular prophecy falls flat on it's face if we are to believe that 70 AD was the fulfillment.
Yes, it was the fulfillment alright - of Israel's last days at the end of the age. The Temple destruction was the sign that God was leaving their "house." And AD70 was worse than 135AD revolt. Twice as many Jews died, both from the forced famine & the siege itself.

Someone already asked your question:
QUESTION: How does the Bar Kokhba rebellion of A. D. 132-135 relate to your understanding of the Eschaton.

ANSWER:
The Bar Kokhba rebellion was doomed to failure from the beginning, because Christ's reign had already been established for the aeons, 65 years earlier, at the Consummation of the Eschaton (in 70). Bar Kokhba and his men were trapped under the feet of the Lord Jesus Christ from the very day they were conceived.

Their fruitless rebellion belongs in the same category as the incident that took place after Emperor Julian (361 - 363) actually attempted to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem for the express purpose of discrediting Jesus' prophecy that not one stone of the Temple would be left standing on another. When Julian's plan was announced, Jews from all over came to Judea with funds to contribute to the project. To their consternation, the work was abruptly terminated.

The Pagan historian Ammianus Marcellinus related what happened:

"[Julian] planned at vast cost to restore the once splendid Temple at Jerusalem. ....He had entrusted the speedy performance of this work to Alypius of Antioch... But though this Alypius pushed the work on with vigor, aided by the governor of the province, terrible balls of fire kept bursting forth near the foundations of the Temple and made the place inaccessible to the workmen, some of whom were burned to death; and since in this way the element persistently repelled them, the enterprise halted" (Ammianus Marcellinus: XXIII; 1; 1-3)

The rebels under Bar Kokhba, like Julian, were wretched, miserable, poor, blind and naked, and simply did not know it (Rev. 3:17). In their endevours to restore the old things that God Himself had brought to an eternal end, they were sealing their fate as those who were in abject, spiritual destitution, confirming that they had never been clothed with God's true, eternal Temple that had come down from Heaven.

The prophecy of Zech. 14:16-19 specifically applies to such men and their followers:

"Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths. And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, there will be no rain on them. And if the family of Egypt does not go up or enter, then no rain will fall on them; it will be the plague with which the Lord smites the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths. This will be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths" (Zech. 14:16-19)

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #3 on: Mon Feb 04, 2013 - 18:36:44 »

Lively Stone

  • Guest
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #4 on: Mon Feb 04, 2013 - 19:36:50 »
There are serious deficiencies in Preterist teachings, any one of which causes the doctrine to collapse. Here is one as follows:

Revelation 16:12-16 describes how the Battle of Armageddon will commence (or how it did commence - allegedly).

Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great Euphrates River, and it dried up so that the kings from the east could march their armies toward the west without hindrance. 13 And I saw three evil spirits that looked like frogs leap from the mouths of the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits who work miracles and go out to all the rulers of the world to gather them for battle against the Lord on that great judgment day of God the Almighty.

15 “Look, I will come as unexpectedly as a thief! Blessed are all who are watching for me, who keep their clothing ready so they will not have to walk around naked and ashamed.”

16 And the demonic spirits gathered all the rulers and their armies to a place with the Hebrew name Armageddon


So, now, answer this question:

Who conquered Jerusalem in fulfillment of this prophecy and from where did they come?

Lehigh

  • Guest
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #5 on: Mon Feb 04, 2013 - 21:22:07 »
There are serious deficiencies in Preterist teachings, any one of which causes the doctrine to collapse. Here is one as follows:

Revelation 16:12-16 describes how the Battle of Armageddon will commence (or how it did commence - allegedly).

Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great Euphrates River, and it dried up so that the kings from the east could march their armies toward the west without hindrance. 13 And I saw three evil spirits that looked like frogs leap from the mouths of the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits who work miracles and go out to all the rulers of the world to gather them for battle against the Lord on that great judgment day of God the Almighty.

15 “Look, I will come as unexpectedly as a thief! Blessed are all who are watching for me, who keep their clothing ready so they will not have to walk around naked and ashamed.”

16 And the demonic spirits gathered all the rulers and their armies to a place with the Hebrew name Armageddon


So, now, answer this question:

Who conquered Jerusalem in fulfillment of this prophecy and from where did they come?

Yes, the emissaries of the powers of darkness came from out of the mouth of the beast & false prophet to muster the armies of the 'kings of the whole world' to gather them for the great day of God Almighty.
Translated into historical terms, under the 6th vial is the mobilizing of the forces of the Roman Empire & the kings of the neighboring nations for the Jewish war.
The drying up of the Euphrates seems plainly to signify its being crossed with ease & speed- and, taken in connection with the corresponding symbol under the 6th trumpet, ie: the loosing of the 4 angels bound at the Euphrates- points to the drawing of troops from that quarter for the invasion of Judea.
This we know to be historical fact.
Not only Roman legions from the frontier of the Euphrates, but auxiliary kings whose dominions lay in that region, such as Antiochus of Commagene & Sohemus of Sophene- most properly designated "kings from the east" - followed the eagles of Rome to the siege of Jerusalem.
Josephus, Jewish Wars, bk.3 ch.4,2 bk5, ch.1,6

Lively Stone

  • Guest
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #6 on: Mon Feb 04, 2013 - 21:45:25 »
Rome is due WEST of Jerusalem!

Offline Trumpeter

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3093
  • Manna: 262
  • Gender: Male
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #7 on: Tue Feb 05, 2013 - 10:23:36 »
Rev 16:12   Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared.

Right now,  China  is  in  its place  prophetically.   The book of Revelation  clearly stipulates that  in order  for China  to  make  its  way  towards  the   "place of  Armaggedon"  (Rev.16:16)  in the  End Times,   then  the  "great  river,  the  Euphrates &  its water  must  be  dried  up".    (Rev.16:12).   

This  awesome  soon-coming  event   will  occur  so   "that   the  way   might  be   prepared   for  the  kings  of   the  east"  (China)   to  move  their  military personnel  westward  through  the  Mid- east   terrain  &  into  the  Holy  Land.   (Rev.16:12).

Incredibly  today,   the   Euphrates River  is   literally  now  able  to   be  completely  "dried  up"   as  predicted   for   the   End Times.    This  is  because  of  the  $32  billion  Anatolia Dam  Project   in  southeastern  Turkey   which  began  in   the  late 1980's  &  is  projected  to  be completed by  2010.   

Any   1    of   the   22   dams   already   being   built  have   the  capability  of   literally   "drying up"    the  Euphrates  River  & allowing  China   to  cross  into  "Armaggedon",  as  the  Bible predicts  for  the  End  Times.   

Offline Stucky

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1295
  • Manna: 18
  • Gender: Male
  • Dedit tibi Deus a facie tua natus est.
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #8 on: Tue Feb 05, 2013 - 12:13:51 »
Rev 16:12   Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared.

Right now,  China  is  in  its place  prophetically.   The book of Revelation  clearly stipulates that  in order  for China  to  make  its  way  towards  the   "place of  Armaggedon"  (Rev.16:16)  in the  End Times,   then  the  "great  river,  the  Euphrates &  its water  must  be  dried  up".    (Rev.16:12).   

This  awesome  soon-coming  event   will  occur  so   "that   the  way   might  be   prepared   for  the  kings  of   the  east"  (China)   to  move  their  military personnel  westward  through  the  Mid- east   terrain  &  into  the  Holy  Land.   (Rev.16:12).

Incredibly  today,   the   Euphrates River  is   literally  now  able  to   be  completely  "dried  up"   as  predicted   for   the   End Times.    This  is  because  of  the  $32  billion  Anatolia Dam  Project   in  southeastern  Turkey   which  began  in   the  late 1980's  &  is  projected  to  be completed by  2010.   

Any   1    of   the   22   dams   already   being   built  have   the  capability  of   literally   "drying up"    the  Euphrates  River  & allowing  China   to  cross  into  "Armaggedon",  as  the  Bible predicts  for  the  End  Times.

 ::preachit:: ::applause:: ::amen!:: ::clappingoverhead::

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 14505
  • Manna: 372
  • Gender: Male
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #9 on: Tue Feb 05, 2013 - 16:18:01 »
I have always thought this to be a problem also...

Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The Simon Bar Kochba revolt in the 130's AD led to more death and destruction of Jews than 70AD.  None of these holds a candle to Hitler and Stalin.  So this particular prophecy falls flat on it's face if we are to believe that 70 AD was the fulfillment.
My personal belief is that Revelation was written after 70AD, and that it prophecies the events surrounding the Bar Kochba revolt (as well as others).  So this isn't a problem for me.

But then, I am in a teensy tinesy minority.  The preterists don't like my timelines and the charismatics don't like my believing that most of those things already happened.  I am a man without a nation when it comes to End Times.

Jarrod

Offline Stucky

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1295
  • Manna: 18
  • Gender: Male
  • Dedit tibi Deus a facie tua natus est.
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #10 on: Tue Feb 05, 2013 - 16:21:41 »
I have always thought this to be a problem also...

Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The Simon Bar Kochba revolt in the 130's AD led to more death and destruction of Jews than 70AD.  None of these holds a candle to Hitler and Stalin.  So this particular prophecy falls flat on it's face if we are to believe that 70 AD was the fulfillment.
My personal belief is that Revelation was written after 70AD, and that it prophecies the events surrounding the Bar Kochba revolt (as well as others).  So this isn't a problem for me.

But then, I am in a teensy tinesy minority.  The preterists don't like my timelines and the charismatics don't like my believing that most of those things already happened.  I am a man without a nation when it comes to End Times.

Jarrod

Jarrod,
None of the Preterists will answer my question about this prophecy, can you?

Revelation 16:12

New International Version (NIV)

12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 14505
  • Manna: 372
  • Gender: Male
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #11 on: Tue Feb 05, 2013 - 17:02:05 »
I'm happy to try, but I don't claim to understand Revelation in its entirety.

As nearly as I can tell, Revelation is making a reference back to the book of Daniel with that verse.  In Daniel, God prophecies through Daniel to the king of Babylon and tells him that his kingdom will be taken from him that very night.  You're probably familiar with the story of God's hand writing on the wall - mene mene tekel upharsin (spelling?).  "You have been weighed in the balance and found lacking."

In THAT story from Daniel, the armies of the Medes and Persians (kings from the East) undertook a massive building project by which they actually DIVERTED the course of the Euphrates river.  The river ran under the walls of Babylon, and this left a dry riverbed.  The Medes/Persians simply marched UNDER the wall and took the city.  That very night, just as Daniel had prophecied.

Why does Revelation refer back to this story?  (can I beg a question?)

Revelation refers back to a lot of things from the book of Daniel.  It appears to me that the New Testament authors believed in MULTIPLE FULFILLMENTS of Scriptures.  They expected that the words of the Old Testament could be applied to events in their own time (or future) and that they would come true again.  But (and this is important) maybe the words would come true in a different sense than they did the first time.  I can show you this in several prophecies in the Bible, but maybe a different thread.  It would be long.

Throughout Revelation, the author refers to "Babylon" but it doesn't appear it's really Babylon he's talking about.  Some people say it's really Jerusalem.  Some say it's Rome.

Whichever it is... by repeating the prophecy of the destruction of (the real) Babylon, and particularly the removal of the thing protecting the city (the river), Revelation is prophesying the same kind of destruction on the new "Babylon," and that the protection of that city will be removed unexpectedly.

I'm happy enough with that explanation.  ::tippinghat::

Jarrod

Offline Stucky

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1295
  • Manna: 18
  • Gender: Male
  • Dedit tibi Deus a facie tua natus est.
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #12 on: Tue Feb 05, 2013 - 17:04:24 »
I'm happy to try, but I don't claim to understand Revelation in its entirety.

As nearly as I can tell, Revelation is making a reference back to the book of Daniel with that verse.  In Daniel, God prophecies through Daniel to the king of Babylon and tells him that his kingdom will be taken from him that very night.  You're probably familiar with the story of God's hand writing on the wall - mene mene tekel upharsin (spelling?).  "You have been weighed in the balance and found lacking."

In THAT story from Daniel, the armies of the Medes and Persians (kings from the East) undertook a massive building project by which they actually DIVERTED the course of the Euphrates river.  The river ran under the walls of Babylon, and this left a dry riverbed.  The Medes/Persians simply marched UNDER the wall and took the city.  That very night, just as Daniel had prophecied.

Why does Revelation refer back to this story?  (can I beg a question?)

Revelation refers back to a lot of things from the book of Daniel.  It appears to me that the New Testament authors believed in MULTIPLE FULFILLMENTS of Scriptures.  They expected that the words of the Old Testament could be applied to events in their own time (or future) and that they would come true again.  But (and this is important) maybe the words would come true in a different sense than they did the first time.  I can show you this in several prophecies in the Bible, but maybe a different thread.  It would be long.

Throughout Revelation, the author refers to "Babylon" but it doesn't appear it's really Babylon he's talking about.  Some people say it's really Jerusalem.  Some say it's Rome.

Whichever it is... by repeating the prophecy of the destruction of (the real) Babylon, and particularly the removal of the thing protecting the city (the river), Revelation is prophesying the same kind of destruction on the new "Babylon," and that the protection of that city will be removed unexpectedly.

I'm happy enough with that explanation.  ::tippinghat::

Jarrod

Lol  Okay, thanks.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 14505
  • Manna: 372
  • Gender: Male
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #13 on: Tue Feb 05, 2013 - 17:20:21 »
Does that mean I did okay?  Or are you lol'ing cuz you think that's crazy...

Offline Stucky

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1295
  • Manna: 18
  • Gender: Male
  • Dedit tibi Deus a facie tua natus est.
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #14 on: Tue Feb 05, 2013 - 17:22:47 »
Does that mean I did okay?  Or are you lol'ing cuz you think that's crazy...

probably lol'ing cuz I'M crazy my friend.  I have no memory retention longer thatn 5 minutes.

Lehigh

  • Guest
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #15 on: Tue Feb 05, 2013 - 17:47:10 »

Offline Stucky

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1295
  • Manna: 18
  • Gender: Male
  • Dedit tibi Deus a facie tua natus est.
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #16 on: Tue Feb 05, 2013 - 17:54:37 »
Rome is due WEST of Jerusalem!

Lively, I like you but I gotta tell ya, Rome is east of Jerusalem.   ::frown::

Lively Stone

  • Guest
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #17 on: Tue Feb 05, 2013 - 17:58:16 »
Rome is due WEST of Jerusalem!

Duh!

Rome is virtually due WEST of Jerusalem and the prophecy in Revelation 16:12 says that the Euphrates was dried up so that the kings of the EAST could be prepared to make war against Jerusalem at Armageddon.

Revelation 16:12
Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great Euphrates River, and it dried up so that the kings from the east could march their armies toward the west without hindrance.

 
The core teachings of Preterism collapse completely on this passage alone, so it seems, rightly so, that Preterism teeters and falls on this detail (among others).

Lively Stone

  • Guest
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #18 on: Tue Feb 05, 2013 - 17:59:58 »
Rome is due WEST of Jerusalem!

Lively, I like you but I gotta tell ya, Rome is east of Jerusalem.   ::frown::

Check Google maps, Stucky!

Offline Stucky

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1295
  • Manna: 18
  • Gender: Male
  • Dedit tibi Deus a facie tua natus est.
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #19 on: Tue Feb 05, 2013 - 18:20:16 »
Rome is due WEST of Jerusalem!


Lively, I like you but I gotta tell ya, Rome is east of Jerusalem.   ::frown::


Check Google maps, Stucky!


I cant operate google maps.  check this http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=map showing europe and israel&fr=mcsaoff
« Last Edit: Tue Feb 05, 2013 - 18:39:07 by Stucky »

Lehigh

  • Guest
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #20 on: Tue Feb 05, 2013 - 18:21:52 »
Yes, all my sources interpret this verse in Rev.16:12 the same:

The drying up of the Euphrates is an allusion to the overthrow of Babylon by the armies of Cyrus who diverted the river , enabling them to enter the city by its passages & water courses. Since Jerusalem is "mystery" Babylon, the allusion in Rev.16:12 is to the siege & overthrow of the city.
The Euphrates was the further border of Israel in Solomon's day. (1Kng 4:21) The Euphrates was the direction where came the invading armies of Assyria & Babylon against Judea & Israel. The armies of Assyria are depicted as a flood of the Euphrates rising up over its banks & overflowing the land (Isa.8:7,8).

A river is also a natural barrier that must be crossed by an approaching army. When Israel entered the promised land, God dried up the Jordan before them that they might more easily cross over and possess it. (Josh 3:9-17)

In drying up the river here, the last remaining obstacle to the utter destruction of Jerusalem is removed- and Titus' forces gain entrance to the city just as Cyrus' armies gained entrantce to Babylon hundreds of years before.

The fact that the angel causes the river to dry up indicates that God was assisting the Romans in the siege and prepares them an entrance to the city.

The kings of the east are a symbolic reference to Cyrus the Persian- but here it refers to the legions of
drawn from the Euphrates & to the auxiliary troops contributed to Titus' forces by kings Antiochus, Sohemus, & Malchus.

From Kurt Simmons' "Consummation of the ages" 

Offline Stucky

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1295
  • Manna: 18
  • Gender: Male
  • Dedit tibi Deus a facie tua natus est.
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #21 on: Tue Feb 05, 2013 - 18:35:07 »
A bible study by Jack Kelley
www.gracethrufaith.com




Revelation 16
 
The Seven Bowls of God’s Wrath

Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go, pour out the seven bowls of God’s wrath on the earth.” The first angel went and poured out his bowl on the land, and ugly and painful sores broke out on the people who had the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. (Rev. 16:1-2)
 
Everyone was warned about the dire consequences that would attend taking the mark. (Rev. 14:9-12) But as usual where God’s word is concerned, lots of people ignored the warning. They have only themselves to blame for what’s happening to them.
 
The second angel poured out his bowl on the sea, and it turned into blood like that of a dead man, and every living thing in the sea died. (Rev. 16:3)
 
One third of the sea had been struck in the Trumpet judgments. Now the rest is contaminated.
 
The third angel poured out his bowl on the rivers and springs of water, and they became blood. Then I heard the angel in charge of the waters say:

“You are just in these judgments, you who are and who were, the Holy One, because you have so judged; for they have shed the blood of your saints and prophets, and you have given them blood to drink as they deserve.”
 
And I heard the altar respond:
 
“Yes, Lord God Almighty, true and just are your judgments.” (Rev 16:4-7)
 
And again the fresh water supply is also attacked. Partially poisoned earlier (Rev. 8:11), it now turns to blood like the sea.
 
For the second time, there’s no “is to come” in God’s name. But now the Name also indicates the plurality of the Trinity. (Some translations add the “is to come” phrase and some don’t.) Those under the altar cry out in support of these judgments. It’s their blood the angel in charge of the water is talking about.  They had asked the Lord how long they would have to wait until their blood was avenged, and now their wait is over. (Rev. 6:9-10)
 
The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was given power to scorch people with fire. They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him. (Rev. 16:8-9)
 
In the USA 2012 is the hottest summer on record so far. Thousands of high temperature records have been equaled or broken.  The number one cause of this is the increasing temperature of the Sun. Regardless of man’s pathetic effort to legislate a reversal of our changing climate, this trend will continue until the day when people will actually burst into flame if they’re directly exposed to its heat.
 
The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom was plunged into darkness. Men gnawed their tongues in agony and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done. (Rev. 16:10-11)
 
Now it’s getting personal. Having plunged the Earth into Spiritual darkness, the anti-Christ will now be treated to physical darkness, adding further discomfort to the sores and the burns. No lamp, no fire, not even the Sun will provide relief from darkness so thick you can almost feel it. Satan’s effort to turn the truth into a lie has been so effective that men curse God for their plight, hardening their hearts even further against repentance. Believing that God is their enemy and that Satan’s trying to save them, they resolve to stand firm in their loyalty to the anti-Christ.
 
The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. Then I saw three evil spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. They are spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty. (Rev. 16:12-14)
 
The Great Border between East and West will finally be removed and the coalition of victors from the Eastern Wars of Rev. 9:13-16, their minds stirred up by the evil spirits, will come rumbling toward the Middle East for the final showdown.
 
Before we go on, it’s time for a brief history lesson, courtesy of Daniel 11:40-45. When Alexander the Great died in 323 BC, the Greek Empire was divided up among his four generals. Cassander took the Eastern European territories around the Adriatic Sea. Seleucus took Turkey, Iraq and Syria. Lysimachus got the Eastern provinces stretching from Iran to India, and Ptolemy got Egypt.  Cassander is not mentioned in Daniel 11, and Seleucus later defeated his friend Lysimachus, acquiring Iran and the Eastern Empire in the process. The story throughout Daniel 11 is of the Kings of the North (the Seleucids) and the Kings of the South (the Pyolemys) fighting each other for control of the known world over a 150 year period. These are the Kings in view in Daniel 11:40-45.
 
Of course when Daniel wrote chapter 11 in about 539BC these men hadn’t even been born yet, and Alexander’s Kingdom was still 200 years away. But in an overwhelming demonstration of God’s knowledge of the future, there are 135 historically verified fulfilled prophecies in the first 35 verses of Daniel 11, all written from 200-400 years before the fact. That lends credibility to what He had Daniel write about the end times beginning in verse 36. But for now, we’ll focus on verses 40-45.
 
At the same time that the Kings of the East from Rev. 16:12 begin their march, another large force from the North begins mobilizing. Earlier, the King of the North, (mainly Iran, Iraq, Turkey and Syria) will  have joined up with the King of the South (Egypt) to oppose the anti-Christ’s move to control the Middle East, but he will overcome them. Only Jordan, the hiding place of the Jews, will remain unscathed. (Daniel 11:40-43) So this new threat from the north can’t be the already defeated King of the North.
 
Reports of the movement of this huge combat force from the East and North will greatly alarm the anti-Christ. What are they up to? Is this a Russian Chinese alliance that the world has long feared? Or is it going to be every man for himself?
 
Setting up his headquarters in Jerusalem the anti-Christ readies his troops to meet them in the last great battle for planet Earth. (Daniel 11:44-45) By some estimates, up to 400 million combatants will be involved before it’s all over. The blood from their slain forms the river that flows from Megiddo in central Israel all the way to Petra in Jordan, about 175 miles away. (Rev. 14:20)
 
“Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed.”
 
Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon. (Rev. 16:15-16)
 
This warning is the second indication (the first was in Rev. 14:12-13) that Tribulation believers will be responsible for maintaining their own salvation, symbolized by keeping their clothes with them. It also confirms three statements in Matt. 24-25 that believers on Earth at the end of the Great Tribulation won’t know exactly when the Lord will return. (Matt, 24:42-44, Matt. 24:50 & Matt. 25:13)
 
If you’re familiar with the symbolic reference to clothing, you know what this verse means. If not, let’s review it. Isaiah 61:10 says, I delight greatly in the LORD; my soul rejoices in my God. For he has clothed me with garments of salvation and arrayed me in a robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom adorns his head like a priest, and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.
 
Just as clothing provides physical covering, righteousness provides spiritual covering. At the first moment of belief God clothed the Church in His own righteousness (2 Cor. 5:21) and sealed the Holy Spirit within us guaranteeing our salvation (Ephes. 1:13-14).
 
But in the Book of Revelation, there’s no indication of the indwelling Spirit guaranteeing the security of Tribulation believers like He does during the Church age. As was the case with Old Testament saints, they have to stay awake and alert and look after their position before God constantly.  Here they are cautioned to stay alert and keep their righteousness intact because the time is very short and if they’re not careful they’ll be caught unawares.
 
The name Armageddon comes from the Hebrew phrase Har Megiddo, or Mt. Megiddo. It’s a place in central Israel at the western entrance to the Jezreel Valley. King Solomon had massive stables there, and Napoleon called this valley the most ideal battlefield on Earth. Here it’s used as the staging area for the troops amassed against Jerusalem.  It’s the only place on Earth God has claimed for Himself (2 Chron. 6:5-6), so naturally the forces opposed to Him want it for themselves.
 
The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, “It is done!” Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since man has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake. The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath. Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found. From the sky huge hailstones of about a hundred pounds each fell upon men. And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible. (Rev 16:17-21)
 
This passage defies description. God has given Planet Earth His most severe judgment ever. Any more and the planet would literally cease to exist.
 
Earthquakes level every city. Babylon, God’s ancient enemy, is singled out for special treatment that we’ll tackle next time. The entire Earth is being re-formed in this final cycle of judgment, partly to eradicate every trace of man’s evil intentions, and partly to complete its restoration in preparation for the Kingdom Age (Acts 3:21).
 
The Biblical penalty for blasphemy is death by stoning. (Lev. 24:10-16) The anti-Christ and the people of Earth have been blaspheming the Name of God since the beginning. Now comes the penalty phase. 100 pound balls of ice come crashing down out of the sky causing unparalleled devastation.  God is stoning the people of Earth for their blasphemy. And still they curse Him.
 
 

Lehigh

  • Guest
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #22 on: Tue Feb 05, 2013 - 18:41:54 »

 ::offtopic::

Offline Stucky

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1295
  • Manna: 18
  • Gender: Male
  • Dedit tibi Deus a facie tua natus est.
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #23 on: Tue Feb 05, 2013 - 18:46:03 »

 ::offtopic::

Yes, all my sources interpret this verse in Rev.16:12 the same:

The drying up of the Euphrates is an allusion to the overthrow of Babylon by the armies of Cyrus who diverted the river , enabling them to enter the city by its passages & water courses. Since Jerusalem is "mystery" Babylon, the allusion in Rev.16:12 is to the siege & overthrow of the city.
The Euphrates was the further border of Israel in Solomon's day. (1Kng 4:21) The Euphrates was the direction where came the invading armies of Assyria & Babylon against Judea & Israel. The armies of Assyria are depicted as a flood of the Euphrates rising up over its banks & overflowing the land (Isa.8:7,8).

A river is also a natural barrier that must be crossed by an approaching army. When Israel entered the promised land, God dried up the Jordan before them that they might more easily cross over and possess it. (Josh 3:9-17)

In drying up the river here, the last remaining obstacle to the utter destruction of Jerusalem is removed- and Titus' forces gain entrance to the city just as Cyrus' armies gained entrantce to Babylon hundreds of years before.

The fact that the angel causes the river to dry up indicates that God was assisting the Romans in the siege and prepares them an entrance to the city.

The kings of the east are a symbolic reference to Cyrus the Persian- but here it refers to the legions of
drawn from the Euphrates & to the auxiliary troops contributed to Titus' forces by kings Antiochus, Sohemus, & Malchus.

From Kurt Simmons' "Consummation of the ages" 

And this isnt?

HRoberson

  • Guest
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #24 on: Tue Feb 05, 2013 - 19:15:15 »
There are serious deficiencies in Preterist teachings, any one of which causes the doctrine to collapse. Here is one as follows:

Revelation 16:12-16 describes how the Battle of Armageddon will commence (or how it did commence - allegedly).

Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great Euphrates River, and it dried up so that the kings from the east could march their armies toward the west without hindrance. 13 And I saw three evil spirits that looked like frogs leap from the mouths of the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits who work miracles and go out to all the rulers of the world to gather them for battle against the Lord on that great judgment day of God the Almighty.

15 “Look, I will come as unexpectedly as a thief! Blessed are all who are watching for me, who keep their clothing ready so they will not have to walk around naked and ashamed.”

16 And the demonic spirits gathered all the rulers and their armies to a place with the Hebrew name Armageddon


So, now, answer this question:

Who conquered Jerusalem in fulfillment of this prophecy and from where did they come?

Wrong question. Revelation is figurative, not literal.

HRoberson

  • Guest
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #25 on: Tue Feb 05, 2013 - 19:16:54 »
Rome is due WEST of Jerusalem!

Lively, I like you but I gotta tell ya, Rome is east of Jerusalem.   ::frown::
Hmm......seems a bit of geography might help here.

Offline Stucky

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1295
  • Manna: 18
  • Gender: Male
  • Dedit tibi Deus a facie tua natus est.
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #26 on: Tue Feb 05, 2013 - 19:18:33 »
There are serious deficiencies in Preterist teachings, any one of which causes the doctrine to collapse. Here is one as follows:

Revelation 16:12-16 describes how the Battle of Armageddon will commence (or how it did commence - allegedly).

Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great Euphrates River, and it dried up so that the kings from the east could march their armies toward the west without hindrance. 13 And I saw three evil spirits that looked like frogs leap from the mouths of the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits who work miracles and go out to all the rulers of the world to gather them for battle against the Lord on that great judgment day of God the Almighty.

15 “Look, I will come as unexpectedly as a thief! Blessed are all who are watching for me, who keep their clothing ready so they will not have to walk around naked and ashamed.”

16 And the demonic spirits gathered all the rulers and their armies to a place with the Hebrew name Armageddon


So, now, answer this question:

Who conquered Jerusalem in fulfillment of this prophecy and from where did they come?

Wrong question. Revelation is figurative, not literal.

 ::frustrated:: Your opinion.

HRoberson

  • Guest
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #27 on: Tue Feb 05, 2013 - 19:21:11 »
There are serious deficiencies in Preterist teachings, any one of which causes the doctrine to collapse. Here is one as follows:

Revelation 16:12-16 describes how the Battle of Armageddon will commence (or how it did commence - allegedly).

Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great Euphrates River, and it dried up so that the kings from the east could march their armies toward the west without hindrance. 13 And I saw three evil spirits that looked like frogs leap from the mouths of the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits who work miracles and go out to all the rulers of the world to gather them for battle against the Lord on that great judgment day of God the Almighty.

15 “Look, I will come as unexpectedly as a thief! Blessed are all who are watching for me, who keep their clothing ready so they will not have to walk around naked and ashamed.”

16 And the demonic spirits gathered all the rulers and their armies to a place with the Hebrew name Armageddon


So, now, answer this question:

Who conquered Jerusalem in fulfillment of this prophecy and from where did they come?

Wrong question. Revelation is figurative, not literal.

 ::frustrated:: Your opinion.
Nope. Ever see a dragon? How about a city the size of the New Jerusalem with streets of Gold?

It's figurative.

Offline Stucky

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1295
  • Manna: 18
  • Gender: Male
  • Dedit tibi Deus a facie tua natus est.
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #28 on: Tue Feb 05, 2013 - 19:50:07 »
There are serious deficiencies in Preterist teachings, any one of which causes the doctrine to collapse. Here is one as follows:

Revelation 16:12-16 describes how the Battle of Armageddon will commence (or how it did commence - allegedly).

Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great Euphrates River, and it dried up so that the kings from the east could march their armies toward the west without hindrance. 13 And I saw three evil spirits that looked like frogs leap from the mouths of the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits who work miracles and go out to all the rulers of the world to gather them for battle against the Lord on that great judgment day of God the Almighty.

15 “Look, I will come as unexpectedly as a thief! Blessed are all who are watching for me, who keep their clothing ready so they will not have to walk around naked and ashamed.”

16 And the demonic spirits gathered all the rulers and their armies to a place with the Hebrew name Armageddon


So, now, answer this question:

Who conquered Jerusalem in fulfillment of this prophecy and from where did they come?

Wrong question. Revelation is figurative, not literal.

 ::frustrated:: Your opinion.
Nope. Ever see a dragon? How about a city the size of the New Jerusalem with streets of Gold?

It's figurative.

LMAO.  Are you kidding me?  Really? The word “dragon” and “dragons” are found 22 times in the Old Testament. 

Deuteronomy 32:33; Ezekiel 29:3; Isaiah 13:22; Isaiah 27:1; Isaiah 34:13; Isaiah 35:7; Isaiah 43:20; Isaiah 51:9; Jeremiah 9:11; Jeremiah 14:6; Jeremiah 10:22; Jeremiah 49:33; Jeremiah 51:34; Jeremiah 51:37;Job 30:29; Malachi 1:3; Micah 1:8: Nehemiah 2:13; Psalm 44:19; Psalm 74:13; Psalm 91:13; Psalm 148:7;

Obviouosly God believed in dragons, that's good enough for me.


In Revelation 21 the new heaven and the new earth have come, God the Father then brings the New Jerusalem to earth in the New Jerusalem where He dwells with His own for the millenium. Only God’s children will be with Him in the New Jerusalem (John 1:12). Do you belong to Him? In Ecclesiastes Solomon tells us of the futility of our pursuits in this life. Verse 3:11 tells us that since we were made for eternity nothing in time will fully and permanently satisfy us. Augustine wrote, “You have made us for yourself, O Lord, and we are restless until we find our rest in you.”

The New Jerusalem is where believers in Christ will spend eternity. The New Jerusalem is the ultimate fulfillment of all God’s promises   

Lively Stone

  • Guest
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #29 on: Tue Feb 05, 2013 - 20:24:04 »
Rome is due WEST of Jerusalem!


Lively, I like you but I gotta tell ya, Rome is east of Jerusalem.   ::frown::


Check Google maps, Stucky!


I cant operate google maps.  check this http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=map showing europe and israel&fr=mcsaoff


Here ya go! Rome is west of Jerusalem.


Lively Stone

  • Guest
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #30 on: Tue Feb 05, 2013 - 20:27:13 »
There are serious deficiencies in Preterist teachings, any one of which causes the doctrine to collapse. Here is one as follows:

Revelation 16:12-16 describes how the Battle of Armageddon will commence (or how it did commence - allegedly).

Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great Euphrates River, and it dried up so that the kings from the east could march their armies toward the west without hindrance. 13 And I saw three evil spirits that looked like frogs leap from the mouths of the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits who work miracles and go out to all the rulers of the world to gather them for battle against the Lord on that great judgment day of God the Almighty.

15 “Look, I will come as unexpectedly as a thief! Blessed are all who are watching for me, who keep their clothing ready so they will not have to walk around naked and ashamed.”

16 And the demonic spirits gathered all the rulers and their armies to a place with the Hebrew name Armageddon


So, now, answer this question:

Who conquered Jerusalem in fulfillment of this prophecy and from where did they come?

Wrong question. Revelation is figurative, not literal.

Some is figurative and some is literal. It is the downfall of Preterism to not be able to discern which is which. This matter of Revelation 16 is literal.

Can you answer the question rather than deflect it?

HRoberson

  • Guest
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #31 on: Tue Feb 05, 2013 - 20:53:28 »
There are serious deficiencies in Preterist teachings, any one of which causes the doctrine to collapse. Here is one as follows:

Revelation 16:12-16 describes how the Battle of Armageddon will commence (or how it did commence - allegedly).

Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great Euphrates River, and it dried up so that the kings from the east could march their armies toward the west without hindrance. 13 And I saw three evil spirits that looked like frogs leap from the mouths of the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits who work miracles and go out to all the rulers of the world to gather them for battle against the Lord on that great judgment day of God the Almighty.

15 “Look, I will come as unexpectedly as a thief! Blessed are all who are watching for me, who keep their clothing ready so they will not have to walk around naked and ashamed.”

16 And the demonic spirits gathered all the rulers and their armies to a place with the Hebrew name Armageddon


So, now, answer this question:

Who conquered Jerusalem in fulfillment of this prophecy and from where did they come?

Wrong question. Revelation is figurative, not literal.

 ::frustrated:: Your opinion.
Nope. Ever see a dragon? How about a city the size of the New Jerusalem with streets of Gold?

It's figurative.

LMAO.  Are you kidding me?  Really? The word “dragon” and “dragons” are found 22 times in the Old Testament. 

Deuteronomy 32:33; Ezekiel 29:3; Isaiah 13:22; Isaiah 27:1; Isaiah 34:13; Isaiah 35:7; Isaiah 43:20; Isaiah 51:9; Jeremiah 9:11; Jeremiah 14:6; Jeremiah 10:22; Jeremiah 49:33; Jeremiah 51:34; Jeremiah 51:37;Job 30:29; Malachi 1:3; Micah 1:8: Nehemiah 2:13; Psalm 44:19; Psalm 74:13; Psalm 91:13; Psalm 148:7;

Obviouosly God believed in dragons, that's good enough for me.


In Revelation 21 the new heaven and the new earth have come, God the Father then brings the New Jerusalem to earth in the New Jerusalem where He dwells with His own for the millenium. Only God’s children will be with Him in the New Jerusalem (John 1:12). Do you belong to Him? In Ecclesiastes Solomon tells us of the futility of our pursuits in this life. Verse 3:11 tells us that since we were made for eternity nothing in time will fully and permanently satisfy us. Augustine wrote, “You have made us for yourself, O Lord, and we are restless until we find our rest in you.”

The New Jerusalem is where believers in Christ will spend eternity. The New Jerusalem is the ultimate fulfillment of all God’s promises   
My question was not whether "God believed in them," but whether you had ever seen one.

It's nice to see that you can recognize figurative language sometimes.

Now you just need to learn to see it more often.

Offline Stucky

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1295
  • Manna: 18
  • Gender: Male
  • Dedit tibi Deus a facie tua natus est.
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #32 on: Tue Feb 05, 2013 - 21:01:20 »
There are serious deficiencies in Preterist teachings, any one of which causes the doctrine to collapse. Here is one as follows:

Revelation 16:12-16 describes how the Battle of Armageddon will commence (or how it did commence - allegedly).

Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great Euphrates River, and it dried up so that the kings from the east could march their armies toward the west without hindrance. 13 And I saw three evil spirits that looked like frogs leap from the mouths of the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits who work miracles and go out to all the rulers of the world to gather them for battle against the Lord on that great judgment day of God the Almighty.

15 “Look, I will come as unexpectedly as a thief! Blessed are all who are watching for me, who keep their clothing ready so they will not have to walk around naked and ashamed.”

16 And the demonic spirits gathered all the rulers and their armies to a place with the Hebrew name Armageddon


So, now, answer this question:

Who conquered Jerusalem in fulfillment of this prophecy and from where did they come?

Wrong question. Revelation is figurative, not literal.

 ::frustrated:: Your opinion.
Nope. Ever see a dragon? How about a city the size of the New Jerusalem with streets of Gold?

It's figurative.

LMAO.  Are you kidding me?  Really? The word “dragon” and “dragons” are found 22 times in the Old Testament. 

Deuteronomy 32:33; Ezekiel 29:3; Isaiah 13:22; Isaiah 27:1; Isaiah 34:13; Isaiah 35:7; Isaiah 43:20; Isaiah 51:9; Jeremiah 9:11; Jeremiah 14:6; Jeremiah 10:22; Jeremiah 49:33; Jeremiah 51:34; Jeremiah 51:37;Job 30:29; Malachi 1:3; Micah 1:8: Nehemiah 2:13; Psalm 44:19; Psalm 74:13; Psalm 91:13; Psalm 148:7;

Obviouosly God believed in dragons, that's good enough for me.


In Revelation 21 the new heaven and the new earth have come, God the Father then brings the New Jerusalem to earth in the New Jerusalem where He dwells with His own for the millenium. Only God’s children will be with Him in the New Jerusalem (John 1:12). Do you belong to Him? In Ecclesiastes Solomon tells us of the futility of our pursuits in this life. Verse 3:11 tells us that since we were made for eternity nothing in time will fully and permanently satisfy us. Augustine wrote, “You have made us for yourself, O Lord, and we are restless until we find our rest in you.”

The New Jerusalem is where believers in Christ will spend eternity. The New Jerusalem is the ultimate fulfillment of all God’s promises   
My question was not whether "God believed in them," but whether you had ever seen one.

It's nice to see that you can recognize figurative language sometimes.

Now you just need to learn to see it more often.

 ::smile:: Have you ever seen Noah's ark?  Was that figurative?  Did you see Adam and Eve?  Were they figurative?  What about Jesus?  Was He figurative?   ::noworries::

Lehigh

  • Guest
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #33 on: Tue Feb 05, 2013 - 21:05:30 »
There are serious deficiencies in Preterist teachings, any one of which causes the doctrine to collapse. Here is one as follows:

Revelation 16:12-16 describes how the Battle of Armageddon will commence (or how it did commence - allegedly).

Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great Euphrates River, and it dried up so that the kings from the east could march their armies toward the west without hindrance. 13 And I saw three evil spirits that looked like frogs leap from the mouths of the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits who work miracles and go out to all the rulers of the world to gather them for battle against the Lord on that great judgment day of God the Almighty.

15 “Look, I will come as unexpectedly as a thief! Blessed are all who are watching for me, who keep their clothing ready so they will not have to walk around naked and ashamed.”

16 And the demonic spirits gathered all the rulers and their armies to a place with the Hebrew name Armageddon


So, now, answer this question:

Who conquered Jerusalem in fulfillment of this prophecy and from where did they come?

Wrong question. Revelation is figurative, not literal.

 ::frustrated:: Your opinion.
Nope. Ever see a dragon? How about a city the size of the New Jerusalem with streets of Gold?

It's figurative.

LMAO.  Are you kidding me?  Really? The word “dragon” and “dragons” are found 22 times in the Old Testament. 

Deuteronomy 32:33; Ezekiel 29:3; Isaiah 13:22; Isaiah 27:1; Isaiah 34:13; Isaiah 35:7; Isaiah 43:20; Isaiah 51:9; Jeremiah 9:11; Jeremiah 14:6; Jeremiah 10:22; Jeremiah 49:33; Jeremiah 51:34; Jeremiah 51:37;Job 30:29; Malachi 1:3; Micah 1:8: Nehemiah 2:13; Psalm 44:19; Psalm 74:13; Psalm 91:13; Psalm 148:7;

Obviouosly God believed in dragons, that's good enough for me.


In Revelation 21 the new heaven and the new earth have come, God the Father then brings the New Jerusalem to earth in the New Jerusalem where He dwells with His own for the millenium. Only God’s children will be with Him in the New Jerusalem (John 1:12). Do you belong to Him? In Ecclesiastes Solomon tells us of the futility of our pursuits in this life. Verse 3:11 tells us that since we were made for eternity nothing in time will fully and permanently satisfy us. Augustine wrote, “You have made us for yourself, O Lord, and we are restless until we find our rest in you.”

The New Jerusalem is where believers in Christ will spend eternity. The New Jerusalem is the ultimate fulfillment of all God’s promises   
The dragon is Satan. "dragon" is only a symbolic of something evil.  There are asps and jackals, but there aren't any dragons in the animal kingdom that I know of!

And the New Jerusalem is the new heaven and earth that Peter spoke of.  It's here. It was one of the things that "must shortly take place" in Revelation. It is where the new testament church dwells. -"Where righteousness dwells" 

God has something wonderful in store for us in heaven when we lay down our earthly tents here.

Keep the Faith!

HRoberson

  • Guest
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #34 on: Tue Feb 05, 2013 - 21:06:28 »
There are serious deficiencies in Preterist teachings, any one of which causes the doctrine to collapse. Here is one as follows:

Revelation 16:12-16 describes how the Battle of Armageddon will commence (or how it did commence - allegedly).

Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great Euphrates River, and it dried up so that the kings from the east could march their armies toward the west without hindrance. 13 And I saw three evil spirits that looked like frogs leap from the mouths of the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits who work miracles and go out to all the rulers of the world to gather them for battle against the Lord on that great judgment day of God the Almighty.

15 “Look, I will come as unexpectedly as a thief! Blessed are all who are watching for me, who keep their clothing ready so they will not have to walk around naked and ashamed.”

16 And the demonic spirits gathered all the rulers and their armies to a place with the Hebrew name Armageddon


So, now, answer this question:

Who conquered Jerusalem in fulfillment of this prophecy and from where did they come?

Wrong question. Revelation is figurative, not literal.

 ::frustrated:: Your opinion.
Nope. Ever see a dragon? How about a city the size of the New Jerusalem with streets of Gold?

It's figurative.

LMAO.  Are you kidding me?  Really? The word “dragon” and “dragons” are found 22 times in the Old Testament. 

Deuteronomy 32:33; Ezekiel 29:3; Isaiah 13:22; Isaiah 27:1; Isaiah 34:13; Isaiah 35:7; Isaiah 43:20; Isaiah 51:9; Jeremiah 9:11; Jeremiah 14:6; Jeremiah 10:22; Jeremiah 49:33; Jeremiah 51:34; Jeremiah 51:37;Job 30:29; Malachi 1:3; Micah 1:8: Nehemiah 2:13; Psalm 44:19; Psalm 74:13; Psalm 91:13; Psalm 148:7;

Obviouosly God believed in dragons, that's good enough for me.


In Revelation 21 the new heaven and the new earth have come, God the Father then brings the New Jerusalem to earth in the New Jerusalem where He dwells with His own for the millenium. Only God’s children will be with Him in the New Jerusalem (John 1:12). Do you belong to Him? In Ecclesiastes Solomon tells us of the futility of our pursuits in this life. Verse 3:11 tells us that since we were made for eternity nothing in time will fully and permanently satisfy us. Augustine wrote, “You have made us for yourself, O Lord, and we are restless until we find our rest in you.”

The New Jerusalem is where believers in Christ will spend eternity. The New Jerusalem is the ultimate fulfillment of all God’s promises   
My question was not whether "God believed in them," but whether you had ever seen one.

It's nice to see that you can recognize figurative language sometimes.

Now you just need to learn to see it more often.

 ::smile:: Have you ever seen Noah's ark?  Was that figurative?  Did you see Adam and Eve?  Were they figurative?  What about Jesus?  Was He figurative?   ::noworries::
You're missing the point, aren't you?