GCM Home | Your Posts | Rules | DONATE | Bookstore | RSS | Facebook | Twitter | FAQs


Author Topic: Why Preterism is False  (Read 3927 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline 3 Resurrections

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 275
  • Manna: 7
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #70 on: Mon Jul 24, 2017 - 19:18:55 »
Rainbow  -  I believe you are missing the full implications behind the phrase that describes the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11, as well as the Two Olive Trees of Zechariah 4.  In both texts, they "STAND BEFORE THE LORD OF THE WHOLE EARTH".  This was an action that only a high priest was allowed to perform under the Old Covenant - to stand in the Holy of Holies before God's presence.  God eradicated that high priesthood system and the temple, physically speaking, by the end of AD 70, and burned up any genealogical records kept in the temple that could prove anyone's priesthood ancestry.

The two Witnesses, (the last of the former high priests, Ananus son of Annas, and Joshua ben Gamaliel) were murdered by late AD 67 to early AD 68 during the Idumean attack on Jerusalem, which has been discussed in earlier comments above.  God has not allowed the existence of any other high priests after this date that would compete with the ultimate high priest, Christ Jesus.  This anchors the fulfillment of Revelation's unsealed prophecies, including that about the Two Witnesses, to a date contemporary with the tumultuous AD 70 era, when there were still former high priests circulating among the Jews.

It's just more internal evidence that Revelation was written before AD 70.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #70 on: Mon Jul 24, 2017 - 19:18:55 »

Offline Rainbow

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 125
  • Manna: 30
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #71 on: Mon Jul 24, 2017 - 20:34:50 »
3 Resurrections,

As far as Preterism is concerned, we can agree that the 2 witnesses have already finished their testimony to the whole earth.
From my perspective, the olives finished when Israel returned from the world where they were scattered in 1948, and the candlesticks poured out the gospels, teaching all nations and baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost as Jesus commanded in the last two verses of Matthew.

That said, not all of Revelation was fulfilled by 70 AD. We have not had a thousand years of peace for instance.  And Jesus has not returned to Jerusalem, because the abomination is still standing in the courtyard claiming to be God where it will stand until the final judgment is poured out.

So we wait, and we watch.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #71 on: Mon Jul 24, 2017 - 20:34:50 »

Offline Amo

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2377
  • Manna: 22
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #72 on: Sat Jul 29, 2017 - 09:07:31 »
Quote
Amo  -  I'm not sure how you got the idea from what I have written here that I deny the realities of the New Covenant since the cross.  I don't.  What we have in John's Revelation includes a soon-to-be-fulfilled set of prophecies that took place as part of the transition period when the Old Covenant was "growing old" and was "ready (or prepared) to vanish away" in the first century (Hebrews 8:13).  As you have stressed at length, the New Covenant was launched by Christ at His death, resurrection, and ascension, (which I believe occurred on that first day of the week - John 20:17).

What we have in Revelation is Christ’s testimony regarding what was soon to begin transpiring regarding the new covenant Church, the Israel of God. There is no mention of anything pertaining to the revelations being in regards to literal old covenant Israel and it’s passing away. Jesus had already pronounced this judgement while still among us in the flesh.

Mt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

As soon as Christ was crucified, the old covenant was over. None of the sacrifices and offerings any longer had any meaning. There continuance was and only could be in defiance of God, and an affront to the infinite sacrifice of His Son. The book of Revelation is not about old covenant Israel and it’s end, it is about new covenant Israel and the struggles it would encounter with the evil one until the second coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. At which time this world will end, to be replaced by the new heaven and new earth at the end of the thousand years.

Quote
For a "short time" when Satan was loosed (after Christ's ascension), the physical trappings of the Old Covenant were still lying around (the temple, the priesthood, the rituals), but their destiny was to be burned up or dissolved by the end of AD 70 so that the New Covenant would stand alone without an idolatrous rival.  Since humanity seems to require a visual demonstration, the whole world needed to see the actual physical destruction of all those Old Covenant trappings.  When that happened, the reality could sink in that God had already set aside all those things when He had launched the New Covenant.

Baloney! Nothing you said above is true or has happened save perhaps in your own head. There were no physical trappings of idolatry in the temple, priesthood, and rituals which God ordained during the old covenant which all pointed to Christ. They constituted the true worship of God, until He who fulfilled their purpose was incarnated and revealed, as the temple, priesthood, and rituals all prophesied.

Nor do the following words of the apostle Peter apply to, or were ever meant to apply to literal old covenant Israel or Jerusalem.

2 Pet 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat 13  Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Twisting the scriptures to fit ones own ideas or agenda is a dangerous game, which always leads to extremely unpleasant eternal consequences. God’s word is not here for us to manipulate for our own purposes, it is here to instruct and inform of truth. The above testimony of Peter was not to or for old covenant Israel or Jerusalem. It was and is to the entire world regarding their acceptance or rejection of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

A false temple, high priest, priesthood, and idolatry have all been set up during this new covenant era by apostate “Christian” entities. The Church of Rome being the original and largest of these. The book of Revelation was for and regarding the new covenant church, its struggles, and its spiritual warfare with the above mentioned satanically inspired apostate “Christian” entities. Your false prophesying is part of the same satanic agenda, diverting attention away from these crucial truths which should be examined and understood by every true Christian.

Quote
Here’s one of my common-place comparisons.  Suppose Cheerios cereal comes out with a new cereal type that is a high-protein, more flavorful, nutritious cereal that they want to market.  In big bold letters on the new boxes, they will stamp the words "NEW AND IMPROVED".  Do they yank all their old Cheerios boxes off the shelf at the same time the new product is introduced?  Not necessarily, because they want to show a comparison between the two cereals so that buyers can compare the two as they gradually transition into buying and appreciating the advantages of the new product.  Eventually, though, the Cheerios company will get rid of any old product when the freshness-date expires on the old boxes.

There was this same type of transition period still going on in John's day when he wrote Revelation in late AD 59 - early AD 60.  That transition was finalized with the Old Covenant being totally eradicated by the close of AD 70.  That was the time when the "EARTH AND ITS WORKS" (Israel's temple and its rituals) were finally burned up or dissolved, as II Peter 3:10 predicted would happen in the experience of its readers.  The New Covenant has been standing alone since that time.

As already pointed out, 2 Pet 3:10 predicted no such thing but in your deceived and agenda driven mind. There is no mention of old covenant Israel or Jerusalem in 2 Peter 3 at all, nor in the entirety of 2 Peter. His message is again to the new covenant church and entire world regarding the same, not old covenant Israel or Jerusalem and its end. The earth and its works are not old covenant Israel’s temple, priesthood, and services. These things were set up and ordained by God Himself during and for the old covenant. They never have been, nor are they now the works of this world, lest anyone try to establish them again in place of the new covenant in Christ Jesus. Which very thing apostate “Christianity” has attempted to do in various manners, which the apostles and the book of Revelation address concerning this new covenant era. The testimony of which you reject in support of these very apostate “Christian”entities.

The old covenant ended completely in the life, death, and resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Biblical prophecy for and about the new covenant church to the same, was and is not about the lingering demise of old covenant Israel and Jerusalem. It was and is about the new covenant Israel of God in the Church of Christ, and her struggles against the evil one and his minions which would shortly begin to pass. This is blatantly obvious to anyone seeking for truth above establishing preconceived ideas, as I have already shown.

I know it is expedient to your false prophesying that the book of Revelation was composed before the destruction of Jerusalem and the nation of Israel, but it is not so crucial a concern for those with proper understanding. Nor do I or many others believe this to be true. I will not waste time arguing the point though, since it is only necessary to your own false interpretations of the book of Revelation.

Quote
As far as the definition of the "Israel of God" is concerned; it is composed of the group of the "children of faith" from creation to the close of human history.  During New Testament days, a "remnant" from ethnic Israel was included in the "Israel of God".  This does not deny the "universal calling and nature of the new covenant kingdom of God", as you have phrased it.  All who ever were, and all who ever will be "IN CHRIST" are classified as the "Israel of God".   This has been true ALL ALONG throughout human history, but was a mystery that Paul said was revealed with the inauguration of the New Covenant.  That is why Paul made the point in Romans 11:26 that "ALL ISRAEL" (which included both Jews and Gentile classes) would be saved (resurrected to life).

We can and do agree upon this point. Obviously, I advise you to take the above understanding to its logical conclusion concerning biblical prophecy of the new covenant era. That such is in relation to those who are in Christ the true Israel of God, and their enemies, and not literal old covenant Israel and Jerusalem. New covenant prophecy should be examined and interpreted according to the spiritual and universal nature of the Church of Christ(Israel of God), in relation to all the world. Even the great apostate church understands and applies its universal nature. Thus the gospel and biblical prophecy of the new covenant era encompass the history of the church and her enemies in the entire world until its end at Christ’s second coming. Which absolutely has not occurred yet.

Quote
As you have already stated, under the New Covenant we are currently in, any classifications such as Jew and Gentile have been erased for all time.  One of God's main reasons for these classifications to ever exist under the Old Covenant was to illustrate His prerogative to choose out of the sea of humanity a people for Himself.  To glorify His own mercy, He chose an obscure, stubborn, pitiful group of rebellious people and lavished his favors upon them - multiplying them until they were like the "sands of the sea".  Ethnic Israel, therefore, served as a microcosm - a picture-type for all time of how God has chosen a multitudinous family for Himself to display His glory.  This "Israel of God" has come, and will come, out of every nation from the beginning unto the end of human history on this planet.

We are all an obscure, stubborn, pitiful group of rebellious people in desperate need of salvation in Christ alone. Christ was and is King and Messiah of the Jews. All who are in Christ are children of Abraham the father of Israel. They are the Israel of God. The classification of Jew and Gentile has not been erased, but changed according to the universal nature of new covenant. The Israel of God includes all of every nation who are in Christ, they are now God’s chosen. The rest of the world who reject the gospel of Jesus Christ, are now the Gentiles including all Jews who are outside of Christ. The kingdom was taken from them and given to those who are in Christ.

Offline Amo

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2377
  • Manna: 22
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #73 on: Sat Jul 29, 2017 - 18:27:08 »
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. 11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

In order to understand who the two witnesses are, we need to examine the evidence given in the scriptures about them connecting them to other scriptures which will help us identify the same.  There are many identifying details given about the two witnesses in the above verses, let us examine them in comparison to the rest of the scriptures.

The first detail given in verse three, is that they prophecy a thousand two hundred and threescore days.  This immediately connects them to other scriptures detailing this same time period.  The woman of Rev. 12, which flees into the wilderness, does so for a thousand two hundred and threescore days.  These time periods are exactly the same.  Thus these two prophecies must be connected, and concerning the same time period.

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

The two witnesses prophesy in sackcloth for a thousand two hundred and threescore days, and the women flees into the wilderness for the same period of time.  The woman in the above scriptures, is God’s church.  God prepared her place, and fed her during this time.  A women symbolically represents God’s church all through the scriptures.

The two witnesses prophecy in sackcloth during this time.  All prophecy comes from God to His servants the prophets.  Prophecy is therefore the word of God, not man.  Who gives the prophecies of the word of God, but the church of God?  During this time when the church of God has fled to the wilderness, due to persecution no doubt, the word of God was said to prophesy in sackcloth.  Sackcloth in the scriptures is related to mourning and suffering because of sin, or persecution.  Thus the word of God, or prophecy went out during this time in sackcloth, that is with much suffering and persecution involved.

The next detail is given in verse four, which says, the two witnesses are two olive trees, and two candlesticks standing before God.  Let us examine the scriptures to see what olive trees and candlesticks might represent.

Zech 4:1 And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep, 2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof: 3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof. 4 So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord? 5 Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. 6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts. 7 Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it. 8 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 9 The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you. 10 For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth. 11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof? 12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves? 13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. 14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the LORD of the whole earth.

5:1 Then I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a flying roll. 2 And he said unto me, What seest thou? And I answered, I see a flying roll; the length thereof is twenty cubits, and the breadth thereof ten cubits.


In the above scriptures, the olive trees, and candlesticks represent the word of God to Zerubbabel.  The word roll, of the flying roll mentioned above, means roll, book, or writing.  Again this supports the notion, that the two witnesses under consideration, are in fact, the word of God.  The old and new testaments.

The next detail we are given in verse five is that anyone who would hurt these two witnesses will be destroyed by fire.  What can we find in the scriptures concerning this.

Matt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS………………………………....................
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


It is by the word of God that all should live.  Jesus Christ is the word of God, and the old and new testaments are they which testify of Him.  He will slay the wicked with the sword that proceeded out of His mouth, that is, the word of God.  It is by fire that the wicked will be destroyed.  It is those who refuse to live by the word of God, that will be destroyed by the same.  Thus, fire comes out of the mouths of the two witnesses, the old and new testaments, which are verily the word of God, and destroys all those who would hurt them.

Continuing on to the next detail, we see that in verse six these two witnesses are said to have power to stop the rain, turn water into blood, and to smite the earth with many plagues.  All of these things are prophesied in the word to come upon those who reject the same.

Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto himto scorch men with fire. 9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

The above is obviously a description of the conditions of a great drought.  The sun will be aloud to scorch the earth, and obviously there will be no rain. 

Rev 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

Here a third part of the sea, or oceans become as blood.

Rev 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea. 4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood. 5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. 6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

Here, both the sea, and fresh waters become as blood.

The book of Revelation is filled with prophecies concerning the plagues that will come upon those who reject the authority of God through the rejection of His word.  These are those who will worship the beast instead of God, by the rejection of His word and authority.  The two witnesses are the old and new testaments which are verily the word of God, and do fulfill the details of the prophecy of the two witnesses.  All those who preach the truth of the word of God are those who proclaim the messages of these two witnesses.  This world will reject them both.  They will rejoice when they think they have silenced the word of God, by killing His servants which speak it, but the word and the witnesses will be raised from the dead and caught up to God.  Then is the end of this world, when all the kingdoms and powers of this world become the kingdoms and power of God.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #73 on: Sat Jul 29, 2017 - 18:27:08 »

Offline Rainbow

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 125
  • Manna: 30
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #74 on: Sun Jul 30, 2017 - 17:57:37 »
Amos,

Good summary on the two witnesses.  The one difference between you and me is that I read the 1260 days as years, as does Daniel, as does Ezekiel.

1260 years historically runs from the time the abomination of desolation is set up on the temple mount in 688 AD, and 1948 at which time the witnesses had managed to finish their testimony and the gospel had been preached around the world, and the Jews began to return from the lands where they had been dispersed.

Then the other difference I see is that you attributed the flying roll to the Bible.  This is where we part.  Here's the verse.  (The parentheses are mine.)

Zechariah 5
"Then I turned, and lifted up my eyes, and looked, and behold a flying roll. (a wrapped up paper like a scroll). 2 And he said unto me, What seest thou? And I answered, I see a flying roll; the length thereof is twenty cubits, and the breadth thereof ten cubits.

3 "Then  said he unto me, This is the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth: (God would not call his own Word cursed.  It is something else) for every one that stealeth shall be cut off as on this side according to it; (cutoff means killed.  God never said that.) and everyone that sweareth shall be cut off as on that side (on the other side) according to it. (covered front to back with fatal judgment front to back with no mercy in it) (That is not God's Word for us.)

4  "I will bring it forth, saith the Lord of hosts, and it (its false teachings) shall enter into the house of the thief (who wrote it) and into the house of him that sweareth falsely by my name (who lied and said it was by God):  and shall consume it with the timber thereof and the stones thereof. (burn their house down)

5  "Then the angel that talked with me went forth, and said unto me, Lift up now thine eyes, and see what is this that goeth forth." (a further explanation of the cursed flying scroll)

6 "And I said, What is it? And he said, This is an ephah that goeth forth. (a bushel basket) He said moreover, This is their resemblance through the earth.   (it is a 'them', and this is what they are like)

7 "And behold, there was lifted up a talent of lead ( about 100 lbs.): and this is a woman (another type of church) that sitteth in the midst of the ephah.

8 "And he said, This is wickedness.  And he cast it into the midst of the ephah, and cast the weight of the lead upon the mouth thereof (the mouth of the woman or the ephah?  He is going to shut it up)

9 "Then lifted I up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came out two women, (the olive and the candlestick from the previous chapter)
and the wind was in their wings (life is good with God's help) for they had wings like the wings of a stork (a stork in Middle Eastern culture is deemed as a good bird who is a good mother to her children) and they lifted up the ephah (100 pound bushel basket full of evil) between the earth and heaven.

10 "Then said I to the angel that talked with me, Whither do these bear the ephah (where are they going?).

11 "And he said unto me, To build it a house in the land of Shinar, (according to the Hebrews, the general area of Mesopotamia, means land of 2 rivers) and it shall be established, and set on its base."

(This is not the Old or New Testament.  God would not curse his own words.  It is a false word filled front to back with lies about what God has said and who he is.  They will pay dearly.)

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #74 on: Sun Jul 30, 2017 - 17:57:37 »



Offline Amo

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2377
  • Manna: 22
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #75 on: Sat Aug 05, 2017 - 08:23:29 »
Amos,

Good summary on the two witnesses.  The one difference between you and me is that I read the 1260 days as years, as does Daniel, as does Ezekiel.

1260 years historically runs from the time the abomination of desolation is set up on the temple mount in 688 AD, and 1948 at which time the witnesses had managed to finish their testimony and the gospel had been preached around the world, and the Jews began to return from the lands where they had been dispersed.

Then the other difference I see is that you attributed the flying roll to the Bible.  This is where we part.  Here's the verse.  (The parentheses are mine.)

Zechariah 5
"Then I turned, and lifted up my eyes, and looked, and behold a flying roll. (a wrapped up paper like a scroll). 2 And he said unto me, What seest thou? And I answered, I see a flying roll; the length thereof is twenty cubits, and the breadth thereof ten cubits.

3 "Then  said he unto me, This is the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth: (God would not call his own Word cursed.  It is something else) for every one that stealeth shall be cut off as on this side according to it; (cutoff means killed.  God never said that.) and everyone that sweareth shall be cut off as on that side (on the other side) according to it. (covered front to back with fatal judgment front to back with no mercy in it) (That is not God's Word for us.)

4  "I will bring it forth, saith the Lord of hosts, and it (its false teachings) shall enter into the house of the thief (who wrote it) and into the house of him that sweareth falsely by my name (who lied and said it was by God):  and shall consume it with the timber thereof and the stones thereof. (burn their house down)

5  "Then the angel that talked with me went forth, and said unto me, Lift up now thine eyes, and see what is this that goeth forth." (a further explanation of the cursed flying scroll)

6 "And I said, What is it? And he said, This is an ephah that goeth forth. (a bushel basket) He said moreover, This is their resemblance through the earth.   (it is a 'them', and this is what they are like)

7 "And behold, there was lifted up a talent of lead ( about 100 lbs.): and this is a woman (another type of church) that sitteth in the midst of the ephah.

8 "And he said, This is wickedness.  And he cast it into the midst of the ephah, and cast the weight of the lead upon the mouth thereof (the mouth of the woman or the ephah?  He is going to shut it up)

9 "Then lifted I up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came out two women, (the olive and the candlestick from the previous chapter)
and the wind was in their wings (life is good with God's help) for they had wings like the wings of a stork (a stork in Middle Eastern culture is deemed as a good bird who is a good mother to her children) and they lifted up the ephah (100 pound bushel basket full of evil) between the earth and heaven.

10 "Then said I to the angel that talked with me, Whither do these bear the ephah (where are they going?).

11 "And he said unto me, To build it a house in the land of Shinar, (according to the Hebrews, the general area of Mesopotamia, means land of 2 rivers) and it shall be established, and set on its base."

(This is not the Old or New Testament.  God would not curse his own words.  It is a false word filled front to back with lies about what God has said and who he is.  They will pay dearly.)

Its Amo, not Amos. Amos was one of the minor prophets of the bible.

What do you say the abomination of desolation was, that was set up in 688?

The 1260 days are 1260 years, but they are not in relation to literal Israel or the literal Jews at all. In this you make the same mistake as 3Resurrections. The woman that flees into the wilderness has the testimony of Jesus(Rev 12:17), which the literal Jews and those of the literal nation do not have. The vast majority of them do not accept Him as the Messiah. The prophecies of the book of Revelation are about the Church of Christ and her enemies my friend, not literal Israel.

The law and the testimony, or word of God, are a blessing to the saved but a curse to the lost. Those who heed the message and accept the salvation offered by it are saved an live forever with their Savior. Those who reject its testimony and salvation will die the second death in the lake of fire. I'd call the one major curse, wouldn't you?

Duet 11:26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse; 27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you this day: 28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the Lord your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

Duet 28:13 And the Lord shall make thee the head, and not the tail; and thou shalt be above only, and thou shalt not be beneath; if that thou hearken unto the commandments of the Lord thy God, which I command thee this day, to observe and to do them: 14 And thou shalt not go aside from any of the words which I command thee this day, to the right hand, or to the left, to go after other gods to serve them. 15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:

Prov 3:32 For the froward is abomination to the Lord: but his secret is with the righteous. 33 The curse of the Lord is in the house of the wicked: but he blesseth the habitation of the just. 34 Surely he scorneth the scorners: but he giveth grace unto the lowly.

Jer 11:11 The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord saying, 2 Hear ye the words of this covenant, and speak unto the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem; 3 And say thou unto them, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel; Cursed be the man that obeyeth not the words of this covenant, 4 Which I commanded your fathers in the day that I brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, from the iron furnace, saying, Obey my voice, and do them, according to all which I command you: so shall ye be my people, and I will be your God: 5 That I may perform the oath which I have sworn unto your fathers, to give them a land flowing with milk and honey, as it is this day. Then answered I, and said, So be it, O Lord. 6 Then the Lord said unto me, Proclaim all these words in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem, saying, Hear ye the words of this covenant, and do them. 7 For I earnestly protested unto your fathers in the day that I brought them up out of the land of Egypt, even unto this day, rising early and protesting, saying, Obey my voice.

Dan 9:9 To the Lord our God belong mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him; 10 Neither have we obeyed the voice of the Lord our God, to walk in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets. 11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him. 12 And he hath confirmed his words, which he spake against us, and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil: for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem.


Mt 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. 16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

The word of God is a curse or a blessing. The law of God condemns humanity, it is a curse upon us. Our Savior took that curse upon Himself. Those who accept this gift by faith according to the word of God, are saved. those who reject it remain cursed. The flying scroll is the word of God, by which word all of humanity will be judged.

Offline Rainbow

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 125
  • Manna: 30
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #76 on: Sun Aug 06, 2017 - 12:52:11 »
Hi AMO,  ::smile::
 

What do you say the abomination of desolation was, that was set up in 688?

The abomination of desolation is the same thing that has been making the temple mount and its people desolate since it was "set up", "standing where it ought not" in 688 AD.  It was set up 1290 years after the sacrifices were taken away during the Babylonian captivity.  Christians and Jews were chased clear across Europe and into Siberia, spreading the gospel as they went as witnesses.  If they made it to (Solar) 732 AD alive, they were lucky. see Daniel 12: 11 + 12.  Same year as the Battle of Tours.

The 1260 days are 1260 years, but they are not in relation to literal Israel or the literal Jews at all. In this you make the same mistake as 3Resurrections. The woman that flees into the wilderness has the testimony of Jesus(Rev 12:17), which the literal Jews and those of the literal nation do not have. The vast majority of them do not accept Him as the Messiah. The prophecies of the book of Revelation are about the Church of Christ and her enemies my friend, not literal Israel.

The woman had a baby, and it was taken up to heaven.  The woman was hated by the dragon.  It is Rev. 12, and in Genesis 3:15.
Israel had a baby, and in Romans 11 it says: "25  For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall be come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."



The law and the testimony, or word of God, are a blessing to the saved but a curse to the lost. Those who heed the message and accept the salvation offered by it are saved and live forever with their Savior. Those who reject its testimony and salvation will die the second death in the lake of fire. I'd call the one major curse, wouldn't you?

2 Peter 2:39 It is not God's desire that any should perish, but that all would come to repentance.  Romans 11:28 "As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance."
Amo, in God's time they too shall be saved.



Duet 11:26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse; 27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you this day: 28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the Lord your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known. 

Amo, there was no Saviour yet in Deuteronomy.  Now there is.  We accept the free gift of salvation, we don't deserve it, and we can't earn it.


Mt 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

AMEN! Amo.

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. 16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

The word of God is a curse or a blessing. The law of God condemns humanity, it is a curse upon us. Our Savior took that curse upon Himself. Those who accept this gift by faith according to the word of God, are saved. those who reject it remain cursed. The flying scroll is the word of God, by which word all of humanity will be judged.

Amo, The flying scroll is described as cursed because it "sweareth falsely by my name"  Zechariah 5:4.  That means it lies.  It is a false religion.  It is not of God but tells people that it is.  It will return into the house of him that wrote it and will consume it.

The whole Word of God is of God.  He wrote it all, Old Testament and New Testament.  The Jews will have their chance in God's time, when all Israel will be saved.  As it says in Romans 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy, through their unbelief: 30 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all.

33  O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God !how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Offline Amo

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2377
  • Manna: 22
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #77 on: Sat Aug 12, 2017 - 12:34:11 »
Quote
The abomination of desolation is the same thing that has been making the temple mount and its people desolate since it was "set up", "standing where it ought not" in 688 AD.  It was set up 1290 years after the sacrifices were taken away during the Babylonian captivity.  Christians and Jews were chased clear across Europe and into Siberia, spreading the gospel as they went as witnesses.  If they made it to (Solar) 732 AD alive, they were lucky. see Daniel 12: 11 + 12.  Same year as the Battle of Tours.

“A law of the year 321 ordered tribunals, shops, and workshops to be closed on the day of the sun, and he [Constantine] sent to the legions, to be recited upon that day, a form of prayer which could have been employed by a worshiper of Mithra, of Serapis, or of Apollo, quite as well as by a Christian believer. This was the official sanction of the old custom of addressing a prayer to the rising sun. IN DETERMINING WHAT DAYS SHOULD BE REGARDED AS HOLY, and in the composition of a prayer for national use, CONSTANTINE EXERCISED ONE OF THE RIGHTS BELONGING TO HIM AS PONTIFEX MAXIMUS; and it caused no surprise that he should do this.”
( Duruy - “History of Rome,” chap. 102, part 1:par. 4 from end. )


The text of Constantine's Sunday Law of 321 A.D. is :
"One the venerable day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country however persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits because it often happens that another day is not suitable for gain-sowing or vine planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost. (Given the 7th day of March, Crispus and Constantine being consuls each of them the second time." Codex Justinianus, lib. 3, tit. 12, 3; translated in History of the Christian Church, Philip Schaff, D.D., (7-vol.ed.) Vol. III, p.380. New York, 1884

Dr. A.Chr. Bang says regarding this Law :
"This Sunday law constituted no real favoratism to Christianity..... It is evident from all his statuatory provisions that the Emperor during the time 313-323 with full consciousness has sought the realisation of his religeous aim: the amalgamation of heathenism and Christianity." Kirken og Romerstaten (The Church and the Roman State) p.256. Christiania, 1879

J. Westbury-Jones, an English writer, speaks thus: “ How such a law would further the designs of Constantine it is not difficult to discover.  It would confer a special honor upon the festival of the Christian church, and it would grant a slight boon to the pagans themselves.  In fact there is nothing in this edict which might not have been written by a pagan.  The law does honor to the pagan deity whom Constantine had adopted as his special patron god, Apollo or the sun [Constantine retained the motto “Soli Invicto” to the end of his life].  The very name of the day lent itself to this ambiguity.  The term Sunday (dies Solis) was in use among Christians as well as heathen.”  (Roman and Christian Imperialism, p. 210)


The retention of the old pagan name of “dies Solis” or “Sunday”, for the weekly Christian festival, is in great measure owing to the union of pagan and Christian sentiment with which the first day of the week was recommended by Constantine to his subjects, pagan and Christian alike, as the “venerable day of the sun”.  His decree regulating it’s observance has been justly called a new era in the history of the Lord’s day.  It was his mode of harmonizing the discordant religions of the empire under one common institution. (A. P. Stanely, History of the Eastern Church, p. 184)

In A.D. 321, to please the bishops of the Catholic Church, he issued an edict commanding judges, townspeople, and mechanics to rest on Sunday. Yet in this also his paganism was still manifest, as the edict required rest on
"the venerable day of the sun," and "enjoined the observance, or rather forbade the public desecration, of Sunday, not under the name of Sabbatum, or Dies Domini, but under its old astrological and heathen title,
Dies Solis , familiar to all his subjects, so that the law was as applicable to the worshipers of Hercules, Apollo, and Mithras, as to the Christians." (History of the Christian Church, Vol. 3, sec. 75, par. 5.-Schaff.)   ( The Great Empires of Prophecy by Alonzo Jones page 391 )

Then came Constantine, the best imperial representative of the new paganism, and  the most devout worshiper of the sun as the supreme and universal deity, with the avowed purpose, as expressed in his own words,
"First to bring the diverse judgments formed by all nations respecting the Deity to a condition, as it were, of settled uniformity." In Constantine the new paganism met its ideal, and the New Platonism -  the apostate, paganized, sun-worshiping form of Christianity - met its long-wished-for instrument. In him the two streams met. In him the aspiration of Elagabalus, the hope of Ammonius Saccas and Clement, of Plotinus and Origen, and the ambition of the perverse-minded, self-exalted bishops, were all realized and accomplished - a new, imperial, and universal
religion was created. Therefore, "the reign of Constantine the Great forms one of the epochs in the history of the world. It is the era of the dissolution of the Roman Empire; the commencement, or rather consolidation, of a kind of Eastern despotism, with a new capital, a new patriciate, a new constitution, a new financial system, a new, though as yet imperfect, jurisprudence, and, finally, a new religion." ( Milman - History of Christianity, book 3, chap. 1, par. 1 )
The epoch thus formed was the epoch of the papacy; and the new religion thus created was the PAPAL RELIGION. ( The Great Empires of Prophecy by Alonzo Jones page 361 )

"Our observance of Sunday as the Lord's day is apparently derived from Mithraism. The argument that has sometimes been used against this claim, namely, that Sunday was chosen because of the resurrection on that day, is not well supported." Gordon J. Laing, "Survivals of Roman Religion," p. 148.

"As a solar festival, Sunday was the sacred day of Mithra; and it is interesting to notice that since Mithra was addressed as Dominus, 'Lord,' Sunday must have been the 'Lord's Day' long before the Christian times." A. Weigall, "The Paganism in Our Christianity," p. 145.

Sunday sacredness came about through the amalgamation of apostate Christianity, and pagan sun worship.  It is an abomination to God.  It’s exaltation within the Roman empire, caused the desolation and fall of the same.  By the fifth century it had almost completely replaced God’s seventh day Sabbath.  By the fifth century also, the decline and fall of the Roman empire was complete. 

When the day of the sun is set up by law, in the place of God’s law, and the day He has commanded, desolation and ruin follow.  It is the abomination of desolation.  When, in the future it is set up again by law, by the power and influence of the church of Rome, with the help of apostate Protestantism, the result will be devastation, and desolation. 

Matt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The word stand in verse 15 of the above means to set up.  This prophecy had a literal and local fulfillment when Rome set up her standard outside of Jerusalem and began the siege of the same, resulting in the devastation and desolation of Jerusalem, and the temple.  It also has a spiritual and world wide fulfillment at the end of time, when the gospel of the kingdom shall have been preached in all the world.  Rome will once again set up her standard, Sunday sacredness, in the entire world.  She will set up the abomination of Sunday sacredness by law, in the place of God’s holy Sabbath.  The result will be the swift and devastating judgments of God, resulting in desolation.  For Sunday sacredness is an abomination to God, and when it is set up in place of His holy Sabbath by law, it becomes the abomination of desolation.

In the old testament, we see that it was an abomination for Israel to take the practices of other nations and religions around them, and incorporate them into their own worship of the true God.  This same thing is still an abomination to God during this new covenant era.  Thus Sunday sacredness is an abomination, having been established through the amalgamation of apostate Christianity, and pagan sun worship.

Deuteronomy 12:29 When the LORD thy God shall cut off the nations from before thee, whither thou goest to possess them, and thou succeedest them, and dwellest in their land; 30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou inquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. 31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods. 32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

Following the example of how other nations worshiped their god’s is an abomination unto the Lord.

Deuteronomy 17  1 Thou shalt not sacrifice unto the LORD thy God any bullock, or sheep, wherein is blemish, or any evilfavouredness: for that is an abomination unto the LORD thy God. 2 If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant, 3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and inquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel: 5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

Offering and incomplete or blemished sacrifice to the Lord, is an abomination unto the Lord.  Worshiping other god’s, particularly the sun, moon, or stars, is an abomination unto the Lord.

Deuteronomy 18  9 When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. 10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, 11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee. 13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.

It is an abomination for God’s people to learn to do after the people which the Lord has given into their hands.  They should not worship their god’s, or incorporate their practices of worship into their own.

Deuteronomy 32  16 They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger. 17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not. 18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee. 19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters. 20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith

Incorporating the practices of other religions into the true religion, is an abomination unto the Lord.

Ezra 9  12 Now therefore give not your daughters unto their sons, neither take their daughters unto your sons, nor seek their peace or their wealth for ever: that ye may be strong, and eat the good of the land, and leave it for an inheritance to your children for ever. 13 And after all that is come upon us for our evil deeds, and for our great trespass, seeing that thou our God hast punished us less than our iniquities deserve, and hast given us such deliverance as this; 14 Should we again break thy commandments, and join in affinity with the people of these abominations? wouldest not thou be angry with us till thou hadst consumed us, so that there should be no remnant nor escaping?

Practicing the abominations of the nations around them, was the breaking of God’s commandments.  The breaking of God’s commandments is an abomination.  Not just that someone sinned, but that they accepted and believed, and practiced, that which was the breaking of God’s commandments. This is an abomination.   

After Christianity conquered paganism, it turned around and did the same thing the children of Israel did.  It incorporated the ceremonies and practices of the heathen around them, which they had conquered, into it’s own religious practice and worship of the true God.  This is an abomination to God.  Sunday sacredness, among many other practices, came into Christianity in this same manner.  When it is set up by law, by supposed Christians, it is the apex of abominations.  It results in swift judgment from God.

An examination of the book of Ezekiel chapters eight and nine, will reveal a list of abominations committed by the Jews before God sent judgment upon them from Babylon, the kingdom of the north.  This was the first time Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed.  The greatest of the abominations was when those at the temple turned their backs on the same, to worship the rising sun.  So to will God send swift judgment upon the world, and this nation, when the day of the sun is exalted above the day which God commands, by law. 

Offline Amo

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2377
  • Manna: 22
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #78 on: Sat Aug 12, 2017 - 12:51:07 »
Quote
The woman had a baby, and it was taken up to heaven.  The woman was hated by the dragon.  It is Rev. 12, and in Genesis 3:15.
Israel had a baby, and in Romans 11 it says: "25  For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall be come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

That the man child was Christ, and the woman was the Church, during it’s transition from the old to the new covenant, is a logical conclusion when the facts of the prophecy are examined closely. 

Ps 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, 3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. 4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. 5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. 6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. 7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. 10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. 11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.


The above scriptures are all in relation to the Lord Jesus Christ.  It is He who is, and will rule the nations with a rod of iron. Prophecies condense a lot, into a little.  Unless clearly specified, we should not consider the time of prophecies by the form in which they are written, but rather by the fulfillment of the details specified in the prophecy.

The child is said to be caught up to God, and His throne.  Christ is the only one that the scriptures refer to in this manner.

Heb 1:5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. 7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; 2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:


The details of the prophecy of the man-child of Revelation 12, can only apply to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ Himself.  I can so no good reason to look elsewhere for their fulfillment.

Concerning the woman being Israel and the Church-

Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:  15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Isa 62: 4 Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married.  5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.

Jer 31:2 Thus saith the LORD, The people which were left of the sword found grace in the wilderness; even Israel, when I went to cause him to rest.  3 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.  4 Again I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel: thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets, and shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry.

Lam 2:13 What thing shall I take to witness for thee? what thing shall I liken to thee, O daughter of Jerusalem? what shall I equal to thee, that I may comfort thee, O virgin daughter of Zion? for thy breach is great like the sea: who can heal thee?

Amos 5:1 Hear ye this word which I take up against you, even a lamentation, O house of Israel.2 The virgin of Israel is fallen; she shall no more rise: she is forsaken upon her land; there is none to raise her up.

Matt 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

2 Cor 11:1 Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. 2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
 
Eph 5:24-32  24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.  25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;  26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,  27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.  28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.  29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:  30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.  31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.  32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.


Christ left His Father in heaven, and became one flesh with humanity. He brought humanity and divinity together. This is the gospel. Those who accept the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal savior, enter into a relationship with the Lord that is symbolized by marriage. The two become one. This is salvation. For this reason, the church is referred to as a woman, that has been married, or betrothed to the Lord. 

Offline Amo

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2377
  • Manna: 22
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #79 on: Sat Aug 12, 2017 - 13:02:02 »
Quote
Amo, The flying scroll is described as cursed because it "sweareth falsely by my name"  Zechariah 5:4.  That means it lies.  It is a false religion.  It is not of God but tells people that it is.  It will return into the house of him that wrote it and will consume it.

The whole Word of God is of God.  He wrote it all, Old Testament and New Testament.  The Jews will have their chance in God's time, when all Israel will be saved.  As it says in Romans 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy, through their unbelief: 30 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all.

33  O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God !how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Zech 5:1 Then I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a flying roll. 2 And he said unto me, What seest thou? And I answered, I see a flying roll; the length thereof is twenty cubits, and the breadth thereof ten cubits. 3 Then said he unto me, This is the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off as on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be cut off as on that side according to it. 4 I will bring it forth, saith the Lord of hosts, and it shall enter into the house of the thief, and into the house of him that sweareth falsely by my name: and it shall remain in the midst of his house, and shall consume it with the timber thereof and the stones thereof.

The roll does not lie, those who lie or swear falsely, and those who steal shall be cut off according to it. That is to say that the words of it will condemn them. You are misunderstanding and misapplying these scriptures.

Offline Rainbow

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 125
  • Manna: 30
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #80 on: Sat Aug 12, 2017 - 13:43:58 »
Amo,

You have to go to the end of the chapter. 

Amos 9:14 and 15 And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them, and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. 15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the Lord thy God."

They are back in their own land, and they haven't been pulled up yet.

According to Ezekiel they will be there forever.

[/b]Ezekiel 37:26-28 "Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. 27  My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28 And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

You can't seriously think that the sanctuary he is talking about is Islamic?  He is talking about his temple on his temple mount, the one that belongs to the olives and the candlesticks.  They will become one nation, no longer two per Ezekiel 37:22.

No, Amo, this is how it's going to go:
Ezekiel 38:18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord God, that my fury shall come up in my face. 19 For in my jealously and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel."

a shaking that includes fire, brimstones weighing about a 100 pounds, the land being split by the earthquake, whole mountains will fall down.

Why would he do such a thing after bringing them back to live in their land -- forever?

Answer: Ezekiel 38:23  Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself, and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the Lord.
[/color]

As for me, I'll be worshipping Jesus on Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and Saturday.  Why would I not?

Offline Amo

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2377
  • Manna: 22
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #81 on: Sat Aug 12, 2017 - 15:33:33 »
Quote
Amo,

You have to go to the end of the chapter. 

Amos 9:14 and 15 And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them, and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. 15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the Lord thy God."

Amos 9:14 is not the end Zecharia chapter five. The prophecies concerning Israel go to the very end of this world. They do not all address the fact that all in Christ will be the true Israel of God in the new covenant. At which point all biblical prophecy is in relation to the true Israel of God during this new covenant, the Church of Christ, the Messiah of the Jews.

Offline Amo

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2377
  • Manna: 22
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #82 on: Sat Aug 12, 2017 - 15:52:25 »
They are back in their own land, and they haven't been pulled up yet.

According to Ezekiel they will be there forever.

Ezekiel 37:26-28 "Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. 27  My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28 And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

You can't seriously think that the sanctuary he is talking about is Islamic?  He is talking about his temple on his temple mount, the one that belongs to the olives and the candlesticks.  They will become one nation, no longer two per Ezekiel 37:22.

No, Amo, this is how it's going to go:
Ezekiel 38:18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord God, that my fury shall come up in my face. 19 For in my jealously and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel."

a shaking that includes fire, brimstones weighing about a 100 pounds, the land being split by the earthquake, whole mountains will fall down.

Why would he do such a thing after bringing them back to live in their land -- forever?

Answer: Ezekiel 38:23  Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself, and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the Lord.


Again, you cannot see the truth of it, because you look to literal Israel for the fulfillment of that which pertains to spiritual Israel.

Heb 8:1Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; 2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. 3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. 4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: 5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount. 6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Why do you try to reestablish that which is old and vanished away? The book of Revelation speaks of the shaking, fire, brimstone, land splitting earthquakes, and hailstones up to 90 pounds coming upon the entire world. Leave the old literal and local behind, and step into the new covenant global and universal application of scripture and biblical prophecy.

Offline Amo

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2377
  • Manna: 22
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #83 on: Sat Aug 12, 2017 - 15:56:20 »
Quote
As for me, I'll be worshipping Jesus on Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and Saturday.  Why would I not?

I should hope so. Yet I hardly think that you will be their if you intend to ignore the specific day God Himself has chosen for special worship and praise.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

Surely you intend to attend the above as well, do you not?

Offline 3 Resurrections

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 275
  • Manna: 7
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #84 on: Sat Aug 12, 2017 - 16:46:28 »
Rainbow  -  Apologies for responding rather late to your comment # 71 (had hospital visits and wound care delaying me).

I'm afraid the context of Rev. 11 says absolutely nothing about the 2 Witnesses preaching the gospel or baptizing anyone.  That would put words into John's mouth that he never uttered.  The 2 Witnesses are simply called "prophets" in Rev. 11:10, who "prophesy" (Rev. 11:3) and who give a "testimony" (Rev. 11:7).  By definition, the action of "prophesying" or giving a "testimony" does not necessarily require the delivery of the GOSPEL message.  We have David's music leaders in the Old Testament (I Chron. 25:1,3) PROPHESYING with harps, with psalteries, and with cymbals", in order "to give thanks and to praise the Lord". 

To prophesy merely means to speak forth a message.  That message from God may or may not be gospel-related.  To give testimony merely means that the person is testifying to facts of which they are personally aware; for example, it can be someone testifying or being a witness in a court setting.  These two actions were done by the last two surviving members of the Zadok high priesthood, Ananus ben Ananus and Joshua ben Gamaliel, in the 1260 days prior to their murder in Jerusalem in late 67 or early 68 AD.  We have lengthy samples of both of these mens' testimonies spoken to their fellow Jews recorded for us by Josephus. 

Both of these men were of the moderate party who were going against the flow, trying to rein in the Zealot rebellion - the "apostasia" - which wanted to wage open warfare against Rome.  The 2 Witnesses' garments of sackcloth symbolically portrayed national distress, as in the case of Mordecai dressing himself in sackcloth in the book of Esther.  Their ability to "turn the waters into blood" spoke of Ananus' and Joshua's former high priestly actions at the altar, with sacrificial blood being washed away by the Gihon Spring waters.  And as I have already mentioned above, there was the literal, documented drought that took place around Jerusalem during the days of their prophesying.  I would be wary of automatically calling their 1260 days of prophesying in Rev. 11:3 the same period as the 1260 days in Rev. 12:6 where the woman in the wilderness is fed and nourished for that time.  Just because it is the same number does not necessarily mean that it takes place at the same time.

To a certain point, I would agree with you that not all of Revelation's prophecy was fulfilled by AD 70.  However, the difference between prophesy UNFULFILLED and FULFILLED is defined for us in Revelation as the difference between something being SEALED UP and something being UNSEALED.  The only prophecies that Revelation itself claims to have left SEALED UP (or unfulfilled) are the contents of ONE VERSE - Revelation 10:4.  Whatever those 7 thunders uttered, John was instructed to SEAL UP those particular prophecies to his audience.  For John to seal those things was to reserve them for fulfillment at a future time (a time that can apply to us today).  This means, (no matter how difficult it is for us to believe), that everything else being UNSEALED in John's writing was to be fulfilled in the season that was "at hand" (or present) to his readers in those days (Rev. 22:10 - "Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book, FOR THE TIME IS AT HAND.")

Rainbow, you claim that you are "waiting and watching".  If you are waiting for all of the UNSEALED prophecies of Revelation to occur, you will wait in vain, since those things which were "at hand" (or present) for John's readers are long past fulfilled for us today. 

Also, you mentioned that "the abomination is still standing in the courtyard claiming to be God..."  I take it you are referring to the location of the Dome of the Rock?  As quite a few on this website have come to realize (and I agree), the Dome of the Rock location is NOT the site of the temple, even if the site of the original temple still had any relevance for us in God's eyes (which it doesn't, now that the New Jerusalem of the New Covenant is here). 

To determine the true location of the former temple, one only has to do a careful reading of the construction of Jerusalem's walls and its GATES in Nehemiah to realize that the temple was built in front of the WATER GATE toward the East, which was near the GIHON SPRING.  (Compare Neh. 3:26 with Neh. 8:1-3 and a Bible map of OT Jerusalem for the location of where the people congregated to worship - i.e., the temple.  It wasn't at the current Dome of the Rock location, so the presence of that Dome is immaterial.)

What you are overlooking is the definition Christ Himself gave for the "abomination of desolation" which Matthew 24:15 said would stand in the holy place.  All we need do is go to the parallel gospel account of this same verse in Luke 21:20 to find out that the "abomination of desolation" is further defined by Jesus as "Jerusalem compassed with ARMIES".  The actions performed by those literal, multiple armies coming against the old city of Jerusalem are listed for us in Luke 19:43-44, and it says nothing at all about a golden Dome being raised in Jerusalem, either back then or now.

You have also claimed that "a thousand years of peace" has not occurred yet.  That isn't quite the way the millennium is characterized in Revelation, but yes, this literal one thousand years of 12 literal months per year has already expired looooong ago.  Since the millennium has been a large subject in its own right that isn't the focus of the OP, I won't dump that here on top of this already lengthy reply. 

Offline Rainbow

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 125
  • Manna: 30
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #85 on: Sun Aug 13, 2017 - 12:12:55 »
3 resurrections,

The "witnesses" in Revelation are G3144 in Strong's concordance.  It is the same word used in Acts 1:8 that says:

"But G235 ye shall receive G2983 power, G1411 after that the Holy G40 Ghost G4151 is come G1904 upon G1909 you: G5209 and G2532 ye shall be G2071 witnesses G3144 unto me G3427 both G5037 in G1722 Jerusalem, G2419 and G2532 in G1722 all G3956 Judaea, G2449 and G2532 in Samaria, G4540 and G2532 unto G2193 the uttermost part G2078 of the earth. G1093"

But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.  And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

The apostles never made it to the uttermost parts of the earth, but we have.

Do I have a witness?  ::tippinghat::

Offline Sonofason

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 39
  • Manna: 1
  • Gender: Male
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #86 on: Sun Aug 13, 2017 - 13:42:29 »
I'm happy to try, but I don't claim to understand Revelation in its entirety.

As nearly as I can tell, Revelation is making a reference back to the book of Daniel with that verse.  In Daniel, God prophecies through Daniel to the king of Babylon and tells him that his kingdom will be taken from him that very night.  You're probably familiar with the story of God's hand writing on the wall - mene mene tekel upharsin (spelling?).  "You have been weighed in the balance and found lacking."

In THAT story from Daniel, the armies of the Medes and Persians (kings from the East) undertook a massive building project by which they actually DIVERTED the course of the Euphrates river.  The river ran under the walls of Babylon, and this left a dry riverbed.  The Medes/Persians simply marched UNDER the wall and took the city.  That very night, just as Daniel had prophecied.

Why does Revelation refer back to this story?  (can I beg a question?)

Revelation refers back to a lot of things from the book of Daniel.  It appears to me that the New Testament authors believed in MULTIPLE FULFILLMENTS of Scriptures.  They expected that the words of the Old Testament could be applied to events in their own time (or future) and that they would come true again.  But (and this is important) maybe the words would come true in a different sense than they did the first time.  I can show you this in several prophecies in the Bible, but maybe a different thread.  It would be long.

Throughout Revelation, the author refers to "Babylon" but it doesn't appear it's really Babylon he's talking about.  Some people say it's really Jerusalem.  Some say it's Rome.

Whichever it is... by repeating the prophecy of the destruction of (the real) Babylon, and particularly the removal of the thing protecting the city (the river), Revelation is prophesying the same kind of destruction on the new "Babylon," and that the protection of that city will be removed unexpectedly.

I'm happy enough with that explanation.  ::tippinghat::

Jarrod

It's an interesting theory you have.  It is not beyond the possibilities that the Euphrates River as mentioned in Revelation is a symbolic expression of something else.  It's so easy to speculate.  Perhaps the Euphrates River in the Revelation prophesy is a symbolic representation of The United States.

Offline 3 Resurrections

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 275
  • Manna: 7
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #87 on: Sun Aug 13, 2017 - 14:39:38 »
Rainbow  -  You are still not catching the meaning behind John's words that describe these Two Witnesses in Rev. 11:4.  I have mentioned this already in my reply #68 and also #70, but my point is still not registering with you.

These Two Witnesses were not just lumped together under the general category of a "witness", as the disciples were called.  Both of these Two Witnesses were given the additional, peculiar description of "STANDING BY THE LORD OF THE WHOLE EARTH".  To someone with a Jewish background, this phrase is distinctive of the HIGH PRIEST, and no one else.  Go back and read Ezekiel 44:15 carefully.  The context contains God's directions for just who among the Levites would be allowed to operate as the high priest in the post-exilic temple.  Because most of the Levites had fallen into idol worship, they were excluded from approaching near unto God in "the most holy place".  They could serve in the other positions of the priesthood, but the high priesthood was off-limits to them. 

In contrast to these Levites who had been disobedient, the family of Zadok's priests had remained faithful.  As a reward for that faithfulness, God promised them the exclusive right to the high priesthood, saying, "But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of my sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from me, they shall come near unto me, AND THEY SHALL STAND BEFORE ME to offer unto me the fat and the blood, saith the Lord God: They shall enter into my sanctuary, and they shall come near to my table, to minister unto me, and they shall keep my charge."

Look also at the Zechariah 4:14 description of the two olive trees, the two olive branches on the right and left side of the (temple) candlestick: "...These are the two anointed ones, THAT STAND BY THE LORD OF THE WHOLE EARTH."  The vision in Zechariah 3:1 had just given a description of the high priest Joshua being installed in that position as high priest, "STANDING BEFORE THE ANGEL OF THE LORD."  God gives Joshua, the high priest from the Zadok family, a conditional blessing based on "if thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt KEEP MY CHARGE", (just as the Zadok high priests were to do in Ezekiel 44:16). 

This Zadok-approved high priesthood did not expire until God Himself changed the high priesthood at the ascension of Jesus Christ, who became the ultimate high priest, after the order of Melchisedec.  We are told that when there is a change in the priesthood, there is a change in the law also (Heb. 7:12).   The New Covenant was definitely a change in the law, and that New Covenant was launched by the crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ.  After that point, the formerly-approved Zadok priesthood became an old, competing institution - an idol.  The type was supposed to point to the anti-type, and once that anti-type had come, the other had to be done away with as outdated and no longer serviceable.  Paul called it "the weak and beggarly elements" in Gal. 4:9, in comparison with the glorious fulfillment of the anti-type.

That is why the Two Witnesses,  (the last two representatives of the Zadok high priesthood in Jerusalem, who had been "STANDING BEFORE THE LORD OF THE WHOLE EARTH"), had to be publicly eliminated in AD 67 or 68, since their very existence had become an idol in comparison to Jesus Christ, the ultimate fulfillment of the high priesthood.   The people of Israel were clinging to the shadow high priesthood, even after the superior high priesthood of Christ had been set up.  God had given ethnic Israelites a "little season" to make an adjustment in their thinking, but since the majority were not cooperating, He had to physically destroy those things in front of their eyes so that they could not mistake His intentions in the matter.

Offline Rainbow

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 125
  • Manna: 30
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #88 on: Sun Aug 13, 2017 - 18:12:31 »
3resurrections,

Revelation 11:4 These are the 2 olive trees, and the 2 candlesticks.  2+2 makes four.  Therefore there are olives, plural, and there are candlesticks, plural, but only 2 groups, one being Christian and the other being Jewish. 

Zechariah 4:14  These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.  Christian and Jewish.

What are these two olive trees flanking the two candlesticks with seven pipes each, per Zechariah 4?  Not two individuals, but two groups of many individuals.  They have anointing oil in them that is poured out of themselves, namely the anointed Word of God.  Both the Jews and the Christians are anointed and the Lord allows these two spirits to stand with him, and He with them. 

The result is that these two entities empty golden anointed oil of the Holy Spirit out of themselves becoming his witnesses, and ultimately spreading the gospel to the uttermost parts of the earth. 

 The throat of a candlestick is the thin neck-like part that goes up to the bowl where the oil travels up and the fire comes out.  There is so much imagery here it is hard to miss.  The center pipe of the candelabra represents Christ per Rev. 1.  Revelation 1:12  "And I turned to see the voice that spake with me.  And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13 and in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire..."

 ::announcment:: ::disco:: ::cool:: ::preachit:: ::clappingoverhead:: ::playingguitar:: ::tippinghat::  all witnesses + christ in the middle.
Now do you get it?
« Last Edit: Sun Aug 13, 2017 - 18:18:25 by Rainbow »

Offline 3 Resurrections

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 275
  • Manna: 7
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #89 on: Mon Aug 14, 2017 - 14:01:37 »
Rainbow  -  I have no problem with seeing imagery and symbolism included in Revelation, but it is regulated by the time constraints that Revelation puts upon itself.

If we are told that all the sayings of the prophecy of this book were not to be sealed because they were all "AT HAND" to the time John wrote them, then we MUST look at a fulfillment for them in the days contemporary to John's.  There is no way around this.  That includes the fate of the Two Witnesses, and the symbolic "drying up of the Euphrates" which was brought out at the beginning of this post. 

There was symbolism AND literalism in the account of the Two Witnesses / two prophets of Rev. 11:10 (not 4) being physically killed and left unburied in Jerusalem's streets in AD 67/68.  A literal earthquake did happen then.  A literal and a symbolic 7,000 men in Jerusalem did die when those two myriads (20,000) of Idumean warriors with their 4 commanders broke into Jerusalem after being held back for a time (or bound) at the Eastern entrance gate of the city.  These 20,000 Idumean warriors and their Zealot assistants did cause a tenth of the city to fall (Rev. 11:13). 

There was great significance in the murder of those Two Witnesses - the last representative members of the Zadok priesthood in Jerusalem.  Ananus and Joshua were the main leaders of 1 of the 3 factions then present in the city - the 1/3 of men killed by the release of the Idumean army into Jerusalem (Rev. 9:15).  Their enemies, the Zealot factions, did rejoice at the death of these Two Witnesses (Rev. 11:10), because Ananus and Joshua had resisted their efforts to start a full-scale war with Rome. 

It's amazing just how many precise parallels there are between the account in Josephus' record of the AD 67/68 Idumean nighttime attack on Jerusalem and the Biblical narrative in Rev. 9:14-21 and 11:3-14.  It's almost as if John had a copy of Josephus in front of him as he wrote Revelation - it's that close.

Offline 4WD

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5033
  • Manna: 88
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #90 on: Mon Aug 14, 2017 - 17:24:51 »
It's amazing just how many precise parallels there are between the account in Josephus' record of the AD 67/68 Idumean nighttime attack on Jerusalem and the Biblical narrative in Rev. 9:14-21 and 11:3-14.  It's almost as if John had a copy of Josephus in front of him as he wrote Revelation - it's that close.

People have seen "exact" parallels between the prophecies of Revelation and the events that were extant or unfolding.  I suspect that that the prophecies are not so much a warning to us as to what is going to take place as they are a warning that we should always be ready for the end.  After all, God took a couple of thousand years plus just to get to Moses and the Law and another thousand years plus to get to Jesus' Sacrifice.  I don't really think God is in all that much of a hurry to end the whole thing any time soon.  But the end will come for all of us one way or another, probably most of us by our own physical deaths.  The message is, "Be ready",   --  do not be caught unawares.  We could die tonight, or tomorrow or the day after.

Offline fish153

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5418
  • Manna: 454
    • View Profile
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #91 on: Mon Aug 14, 2017 - 19:17:56 »
The events do not need to he contemporary to John. To say "there is no way around it" is ridiculous. WHO is saying these things are "at hand"? WHO is saying "I am coming quickly"?  GOD is. To be "coming quickly" could mean thousands of years to God. How do we know?  For something to be "at hand" can mean anything. GOD IS TALKING, not man.

Many prophecies sound as if they will shortly pass, when in reality they speak thousands of years in the future. Many of these deal with Christ's first appearance and were made many, many years before He actually appeared on Earth.

Preterism is false. And it is based on human logic not Divine wisdom. Praise God most can see through it's false assumptions and errors, but those who "willingly accept" this false dogma are missing out on the great joy associated with His appearing. We all need to continue to "watch" and not fall for delusion and distraction.

Offline 4WD

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5033
  • Manna: 88
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #92 on: Mon Aug 14, 2017 - 21:42:20 »
I agree with that fish, but then pretty much the same can be said about premillennialism. except of course it says everything in Revelation is future.

Offline RB

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3743
  • Manna: 240
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
    • View Profile
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #93 on: Tue Aug 15, 2017 - 03:51:19 »
Rainbow  -  I have no problem with seeing imagery and symbolism included in Revelation
I'm not here defending Rainbow, since I do not know his views, but will say a few words. It's early in morning I could not sleep so I got up and try to use my waking hours for God since maybe there's was a reason I could not sleep, other than my shoulder also giving me some problems.
Quote from: 3 Resurrection
but it is regulated by the time constraints that Revelation puts upon itself.
No, it's interpreted by you and others based upon your desired time frame that you need in order to make your system believable.
Quote from: 3 Resurrections
If we are told that all the sayings of the prophecy of this book were not to be sealed because they were all "AT HAND" to the time John wrote them, then we MUST look at a fulfillment for them in the days contemporary to John's.  There is no way around this.  That includes the fate of the Two Witnesses, and the symbolic "drying up of the Euphrates" which was brought out at the beginning of this post. 
First of all, nowhere does it say exactly the way you worded it~Again you said:
Quote from: 3 Resurrections
to the time John wrote them, then we MUST look at a fulfillment for them in the days contemporary to John's.
3 Resurrection, you know what that's calls in the scriptures? "By the sleight of hands and cunning craftiness!" I would like to think that you did not do it on purpose~ besides, charity requires me to believe that of you.... God is our Judge, nevertheless, your words are a classic example of such.  Here is God's testimony concerning what you have stated.
Quote from: John the Apostle
Revelation 1:1~The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
compared with these scriptures:
Quote from: John's fellowservant
Reelation 22:7-12~"Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book. And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."
The very first verse to the very last part of this revelation of JESUS CHRIST which God gave unto him to shew unto US things that shortly must come to pass. So, my point is this~"Everything" in this revelation was at hand and must come to pass shortly~INCLUDING in that is the FINAL JUDGMENT and the New heavens and earth. These things have NOT been fulfilled, so your understanding is out the window and should be rejected as FALSE doctrine along with premillennialism as doctrines of devils. God used the phrase AT HAND and SHORTLY for our benefit, not his. Even for us, what is TWO THOUSAND YEARS? Not very much~and even much less in comparisons to eternity which cannot be measured.

God used the term at hand in the beginning and at the end of revelation~so ALL in between MUST COME TO PASS, including this blessed promise:
Quote from: Jesus
behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be
This has NOT been fullfilled.
Quote from: 3 Resurrection
It's almost as if John had a copy of Josephus in front of him as he wrote Revelation - it's that close.
We DO NOT look to an infidel to give us an understanding of God's word, but we trust the Spirit of the Living God USING HIS TESTIMONY ALONE to interpret his very own words.
Quote from: 3 Resurrections
here was great significance in the murder of those Two Witnesses - the last representative members of the Zadok priesthood in Jerusalem.  Ananus and Joshua were the main leaders of 1 of the 3 factions then present in the city - the 1/3 of men killed by the release of the Idumean army into Jerusalem (Rev. 9:15).  Their enemies, the Zealot factions, did rejoice at the death of these Two Witnesses (Rev. 11:10), because Ananus and Joshua had resisted their efforts to start a full-scale war with Rome. 
Pitiful! John by the Spirit tells us plainly who the two witnesses are, and it's not too deep to follow.
Quote from: John the Apostle
Revelation 11:3,4~"And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth."
Christians have been taught so many different interpretations about the candlesticks and olive trees that many find these verses confusing or difficult to sort out.

The number one rule when trying to understand the "symbolism" of Revelation is to remember that, "the Bible is its own interpreter". Not Josephus, or any other source one may look to other than God's own word. We reject extras-biblical information as a source of interpreting God's OWN TESTIMONY OF TRUTH.  In other words, the interpretation of these passages will be found in God’s Word, not in our personal conceptions or in the imaginations of our heart, or the hearts of other men.  We compare scripture with scripture to see what God has to say in other passages about each item of symbolism. We study to show ourselves approved unto God by examining scripture against scripture, the spiritual with the Spiritual. By this godly method, we allow God to define His own terms. When we do this, our faithful work in Christ is rewarded and we begin to see how God consistently repeats the same symbolism throughout scripture. We learn from the text, the context, and in what sense it is used throughout. In this way we come to understand what God is illustrating by the word.

The fact is, to really understand the background of the symbolism of the candlesticks (lampstands), we have to go back to the Old Testament where the candlestick was commanded to be put in the Temple of God, and to be kept burning continually by the service of the children of Israel. By this God was prefiguring that He is the light of the Temple of God, and that it is by the service of His servants that it will be kept burning continually. God is the true light of the Temple. And He is the tree which supplies the pure Olive oil (Spirit) for it’s burning.
Quote
2nd Samuel 22:29~"For Thou art my Lamp, O Lord: and the Lord will lighten my darkness."
The significance in God commanding the children of Israel to keep the lamp of the Temple burning (Leviticus 24:1-3), is to show that the children of God have the work assigned them to keep light burning bright always. And this is the very same job that the Lord has given the New Testament Church today also. God’s children today are commanded to keep the light burning continually, as they were commanded to do in the Old Testament congregation. We can clearly see this "signification’" as Jesus told the Church, "Ye are the light of the world." This is only because we are in Christ, and He is the true light of the world. And that was the same "signification" that God was illustrating in the Old Testament ceremonial law of the lampstand (candlestick). Christ was the true focal point of it. He was the light, and they were His servants commissioned to keep it burning always. i.e., work that the light of the Lord would shine always.
Quote
Revelation 1:20~"The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in My right hand, and the seven golden Candlesticks. The seven stars are the messengers of the seven churches: and the seven Candlesticks are the seven Churches."
God says the mystery, or the secret of the symbolism is revealed. The Candlestick is a symbol of God’s Church. The star is a symbol of the messenger of God’s Church. So here we have God from the very beginning of the book of Revelation revealing what the imagery of the Candlesticks symbolized. And yet we have theologians who, because of presuppositions or tradition, are looking for any excuse why we are not to understand this symbolism this way just a few chapters later. God interprets the symbolism for us, and He said the seven Candlesticks signified seven Churches. Perfect harmony with the rest of scripture, because the Church is the representation of the Kingdom of Christ on earth, and it is signified as the light of the World.

And really, why should anyone be surprised at this symbolism? Despite the objections of some, Jesus used this same symbolism for the Church all during His teachings. The sound method in Biblical exegesis is achieved by checking for likeness and differences where these same terms are used throughout scripture. In that way, we find out what God means by the spiritual imagery. We don’t simply parrot what someone else has taught before, we bear witness to what God teaches.
Quote
Luke 8:16~"No man when he lighteth a candle, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a bed; but setteth it on a Candlestick, that they which enter in may see the Light."
Again...
Quote
Matthew 5:14~"Ye are the light of the world, A City that is set on a hill cannot be hid. neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a Candlestick; and it giveth Light unto all that are in the house."
Here again, we have Jesus Christ Himself using the same Candlestick to symbolize the Church, and the witnesses work in the New Testament Church as those keeping the light shinning continually, not hiding it, but bringing this light to the World. It doesn’t get much plainer than this. And note that Jesus also equates the Church with a ‘city’ which is set upon a hill. This is the Holy city Jerusalem, the spiritual city of peace and light. And so we have conclusive indisputable evidences throughout scripture that the candlestick symbolizes the Church, the earthly representation of the light of the Lord. There is really no reason for speculation about it symbolizing anything else, unless one is predisposed to believing such ideas. For God Himself reveals the mystery on several diverse fronts.

Will this definition of the two witnesses hold true in the other images God uses for them, such as the two witnesses or the two Olive Trees? Do those also symbolize the Church which is the earthly representation of Christ? Again, we go back to the number one rule of sound hermeneutics, "the Bible is it’s own interpreter." If we start off with no preconceived ideas about what it signifies, and search out the pertinent scriptures, it’s not long before we see that the Olive tree is indeed used by God to symbolize the Church. Later...............

« Last Edit: Wed Aug 16, 2017 - 06:05:35 by RB »

Offline RB

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3743
  • Manna: 240
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
    • View Profile
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #94 on: Tue Aug 15, 2017 - 04:49:54 »
Quote from: RB
Will this definition of the two witnesses hold true in the other images God uses for them, such as the two witnesses or the two Olive Trees? Do those also symbolize the Church which is the earthly representation of Christ? Again, we go back to the number one rule of sound hermeneutics, "the Bible is it’s own interpreter." If we start off with no preconceived ideas about what it signifies, and search out the pertinent scriptures, it’s not long before we see that the Olive tree is indeed used by God to symbolize the Church.
Speaking of Christ the prophet Hosea said:
Quote
Hosea 14:5-7~"I will be as the dew unto Israel: he shall grow as the lily, and cast forth his roots as Lebanon. His branches shall spread, and his beauty shall be as the Olive Tree, and his smell as Lebanon. They that dwell under his shadow shall return; they shall revive as the corn, and grow as the vine: the scent thereof shall be as the wine of Lebanon."
We know from reading the scriptures that the Israel of God is ultimately Christ, and the children of God who dwell under the shadow of this tree will have no scorching sun on them. When we are in Christ, we are like a green olive tree in the house of the Lord (Psalms 52:8). This is the Salvation and the hope of the Israel of God. (Per Acts 28:20) And as we are the light of the world because Christ is the light of the world, so we are the Olive tree because Christ is this Olive tree. He is the Israel of the New Covenant in whom if we abide, we are sons of God. We can see this most clearly in a passage like Romans chapters 9-11, where the Gentile nations are grafted into New Covenant Israel, which is symbolized by the Olive tree.
Quote
Romans 11:17~"And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;"
Clearly, God is using a wild olive tree to symbolize the Gentile nations, and the natural Olive Tree to symbolize the representation of Covenant Israel into which believers are grafted. i.e., we join with Paul and the Apostles into Christ, the true Israel of God (Per Ephesians 2:11-19) which this Covenant tree merely represents. This is the New Covenant Church, and it is symbolized by the olive tree having Gentiles grafted into it that they become heirs (right along with the Jews) according to the promises to Israel. And so once again we see the Word of God showing just who the olive tree represents. All those Gentiles coming into this Jewish olive tree are the believers coming into the New Covenant Congregation. Those branches of the tree broken off are those of Israel who come under judgment and are blinded. The Jewish brethren who are Saved are the branches in this same tree right along with us. So we see Jewish people and Gentiles, all in the exact same olive tree of Salvation.

Likewise in Zechariah chapter four, the symbolism of two olive trees and the candlestick (lampstand) are signifying the Church.
Quote
Zechariah 4:2-6~"And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof: And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof. So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord? Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts."
The Lampstands and olive tress stand before God, not by their own power or by their own might, but by the Holy Spirit of the Lord. This again illustrating what we’ve been seeing of the two Witnesses. It is not by any power we have inherently, but because of the power of the Holy Spirit of God given us that we witness or have the testimony of Christ. Not by our own oil, but by the pure oil of the Olive tree. Not by our own light, but by the light of the candle. The two olive trees symbolize the anointed ones that stand by the Lord of the whole earth (Zechariah 4:14), not by their own power, but by power of God. This symbolizes the Church, anointed by the Spirit of God. Just as we read that the two Witnesses of Revelation also stand by the Lord of the earth.
Quote
Zechariah 4:14~"Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth."
The same thing revelation chapter eleven says of the two candlestick/olive trees there. They stand before the God of the earth. They are the anointed ones, meaning they are those who are anointed by the Holy Spirit, by being in Christ. The oil for the light is not theirs, it is that given them.
Quote
1st John 2:27 ~"But the anointing which ye have received of Him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."
So we have seen from God’s Word that the Witnesses represent the Church, the Candlesticks represent the Church, and the Olive Tree represents the Church, and that they are the anointed ones who stand before the God of the earth. All roads are leading to the same inescapable conclusion. This imagery represents the Church.

The final identifying factor is that these two witnesses are also called the two Prophets (verse 10). Who are the Prophets of God today? Not in the Old Testament, but who are the New Testament Prophets? ..Again, clearly, those of the Church are the only Holy prophets of God today.

Later....

« Last Edit: Tue Aug 15, 2017 - 04:56:01 by RB »

Offline RB

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3743
  • Manna: 240
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
    • View Profile
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #95 on: Tue Aug 15, 2017 - 05:17:43 »
Quote from: RB
The final identifying factor is that these two witnesses are also called the two Prophets (verse 10). Who are the Prophets of God today? Not in the Old Testament, but who are the New Testament Prophets?
Again, clearly, those of the Church are the only Holy prophets of God today.
Quote
1st Corinthians 12:28~"And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healing, helps, governments, diversities of tongues."
Ever since the Holy Spirit was poured out at Pentecost, the Lord’s servants of the New Covenant Church go forth prophesying (Acts 2:17). Whenever the Church declares the Word that the future holds everlasting life for the servants of God, an inheritance from above, and it holds judgment for those who do not believe, they are prophesying. Whenever they prophecy Jesus will someday return on the clouds of Glory to rapture the Church and wipe away all tears, they are prophesying God’s Word. To prophesy in the broad sense means to be a messenger of God to declare His Word, or be a "mouth piece." In certain senses it means to declare God’s Word by foretelling what God has in store in the future. And that is exactly what the Church does in its testimony. It prophesies of God’s Word of deliverance, judgment, inheritance, and Christ’s coming.

It is true that there is the particular office of a prophet in the Church, but in the general sense, all believers are prophets in that they are messengers to deliver God’s Word. All through the scripture God calls those of the Church His prophets. This is implied also in God’s warning us to "beware of false prophets," as opposed to true prophets (those with His testimony). You see, in one sense all true Christians today are prophets of God, declaring what shall be.
Quote
Joel 2:28~"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:"
Quote
Acts 2:16-18~"But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:"
We are made prophets able to declare God’s Word by the anointing of the Holy Spirit poured out at Pentecost. This was the fulfillment of that which was prophesied in Joel. That which was a mystery before, was made known. That the Gentiles in the New Testament Church dispensation would be prophets unto God and have truth revealed unto them.
Quote
Ephesians 3:5~"Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto His Holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit."
All of us who are messengers declaring God’s Word, are prophets. When God declares to his servants the prophets, he’s declaring to the Church. Whether through the Bible by the Spirit, or before the Bible was complete by angels or from a burning Bush. When we bear witness to God’s Word, we are prophesying just as the prophets of old did. They took what God told them, and they bore witness to it to His people. If we do it faithfully from the inerrant Word of God, we are faithful (to God) prophets. If we do it unfaithfully or deceitfully, then we are false prophets. To put it simply, a faithful Prophet declares God’s Word from God’s mouth faithfully.

The consistency of all these things paints a glorious picture of God’s prophecy. These two candlesticks are the Church, the light of the world, the true witnesses to the testimony of Christ who stand before the God of all the Earth. Just as when Jesus sent the 70 out by two, He said rejoice not in this power, but rejoice that your names were written in Heaven. In Luke 10:21 God said that the Father was Lord of Heaven and Earth, and this is the God of all the earth that all true believers stand before. Indeed, who except the true witnesses could stand before the God of all the earth and not be consumed? For they are those clothed in the righteousness of Christ.

When we study all the pertinent facts carefully, I believe that we can come to no other conclusion but that the two Candlesticks, Witnesses, Prophets, and Olive trees are the Church. They all fit interchangeably as a sign illustrating God’s people. Like a gigantic Biblical picture puzzle, every piece fits perfectly. This is how we know we have come to THE truth, as inconsistency is the hallmark of error.

Olive tree = Church (Romans 11)
Candlestick = Church (Revelation 1)
Witnesses = Church (Acts 1)
Prophets = Church (Rev 1)

I’d say this is pretty conclusive evidence. We’ve seen clear scripture which supports the candlestick, Olive Tree, Witnesses, and Prophets, are all used in scripture as representations of the Church. We’ve seen Biblical evidence that God uses the number two, and specifically, two witnesses, to illustrate a confirmation of that which is true. It is the true Church of God that is sent forth with power to witness in truth (as the 12 Apostles were sent out two by two). By contrast, there are no scriptures which say that the olive tree is Moses, or that it is Elijah, or that candlesticks symbolize enoch or the two covenants...especially
Quote from: 3 Resurrection from the book of Josephus
There was great significance in the murder of those Two Witnesses - the last representative members of the Zadok priesthood in Jerusalem.  Ananus and Joshua were the main leaders of 1 of the 3 factions then present in the city - the 1/3 of men killed by the release of the Idumean army into Jerusalem (Rev. 9:15).  Their enemies, the Zealot factions, did rejoice at the death of these Two Witnesses (Rev. 11:10), because Ananus and Joshua had resisted their efforts to start a full-scale war with Rome.
That fact alone means that such personal interpretations are purely speculation by some theologians. In other words, it is not something which is actually declared, or which stands upon solid scripture.

The overview of verse four is that God gave power to these two witnesses to prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days in mourning. This is a symbolic picture of the indivisible Church (Jews and Gentiles) as it has been given the power to testify for this length of time. Moreover, so that there is no confusion about these being literally two men, God also enlightens us that these are the two olive trees and two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. They stand before God and give assent to His will, His Word, and His purpose, because they are made righteous in Christ. We have our consistent and Biblical understanding of this imagery using scriptures ALONE! These two witnesses (Jews and Gentiles) are a representation of God’s Church, and specifically in this context, God’s true Church not the external covenant Church. They are those who are standing before the God of the earth, importing that they were strengthened in Christ, faithful messengers who adhere to His cause and testimonies as revealed to us from the holy scriptures.
« Last Edit: Tue Aug 15, 2017 - 06:22:12 by RB »

Offline Rainbow

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 125
  • Manna: 30
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #96 on: Tue Aug 15, 2017 - 14:37:19 »
Rainbow  -  I have no problem with seeing imagery and symbolism included in Revelation, but it is regulated by the time constraints that Revelation puts upon itself.

If we are told that all the sayings of the prophecy of this book were not to be sealed because they were all "AT HAND" to the time John wrote them, then we MUST look at a fulfillment for them in the days contemporary to John's.  There is no way around this.  That includes the fate of the Two Witnesses, and the symbolic "drying up of the Euphrates" which was brought out at the beginning of this post. 

There was symbolism AND literalism in the account of the Two Witnesses / two prophets of Rev. 11:10 (not 4) being physically killed and left unburied in Jerusalem's streets in AD 67/68.  A literal earthquake did happen then.  A literal and a symbolic 7,000 men in Jerusalem did die when those two myriads (20,000) of Idumean warriors with their 4 commanders broke into Jerusalem after being held back for a time (or bound) at the Eastern entrance gate of the city.  These 20,000 Idumean warriors and their Zealot assistants did cause a tenth of the city to fall (Rev. 11:13). 

There was great significance in the murder of those Two Witnesses - the last representative members of the Zadok priesthood in Jerusalem.  Ananus and Joshua were the main leaders of 1 of the 3 factions then present in the city - the 1/3 of men killed by the release of the Idumean army into Jerusalem (Rev. 9:15).  Their enemies, the Zealot factions, did rejoice at the death of these Two Witnesses (Rev. 11:10), because Ananus and Joshua had resisted their efforts to start a full-scale war with Rome. 

It's amazing just how many precise parallels there are between the account in Josephus' record of the AD 67/68 Idumean nighttime attack on Jerusalem and the Biblical narrative in Rev. 9:14-21 and 11:3-14.  It's almost as if John had a copy of Josephus in front of him as he wrote Revelation - it's that close.

Jesus said, but first the gospel has to be preached to the uttermost parts.  That didn't happen in 68 AD.  It happened in this generation.

Then in Rev. 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter."

For example, the 8 beasts ridden by Mystery Babylon, were before John, during John, and after John per Rev. 17:8  "...and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that Was, and IS NOT, and YET IS."

In other words, people  in the future shall wonder, when they behold a beast that was in the past, present and future.  We are the future, we have seen all these evil empires, and for half of that time, people (witnesses) died on the streets of Jerusalem for trying to witness while the abomination of desolation claimed to be God.  That is soon to stop because the final beast is going into perdition.  There will be peace for 1000 years -- finally. Never happened before.

Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medopersia, Greece,   Rome,    Islam, Islam revived whose deadly head wound was healed.

My hope is once you have read this, and then it happens, you will know it was God who has done it, not some random event.
Remember when the kids were out in the streets celebrating when they got Osama Bin Laden.  It will be enormously better than that.

There is one last thing the beast does. It goes and burns down the woman that rode them all through the centuries.  A clue...the woman is a false religion and it is located somewhere in old Babylonia on a pedestal that wants to change dates and times of our calendar, that hates Jews and Christians, that has a fondness for swords.

"When you see these things come to pass, know ye that the Kingdom of God is nigh at hand." Luke 21:31.
« Last Edit: Tue Aug 15, 2017 - 14:58:40 by Rainbow »

Offline 3 Resurrections

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 275
  • Manna: 7
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #97 on: Tue Aug 15, 2017 - 14:58:49 »
fish153  -   (Regarding your comment #91)

Of course time has a different relevance for God.  That goes without question.  But God was not writing Revelation to Himself; He was writing it to His human servants on earth to convey a message to them using plain language that even the most untutored of that 1st-century audience could understand and benefit from.  He intended to hide His word from those who were wise and prudent in their own eyes and to reveal it unto babes.  His usual modus operandi.

If you have given any consideration to the points I have tried to make in other posts, you would have noticed that I most definitely claim that scripture teaches a future PHYSICAL resurrection for the bodies of the saints, and that there is a definite culmination point of human history, with a judgment.  At a THIRD coming of Christ.  And by every indication I encounter in scripture, that will be in 3033 at the season the Feast of Tabernacles would have taken place under the Old Covenant.  But in the meantime, for myself, (as 4WD has stated), I should be well-prepared to meet my Father in heaven if I get in the car tonight and never make it back home after a fatal wreck on the highway.

To be sure, there are some branches of Preterism that espouse ideas that are alien to scripture's true intent.  These I rightly discard.  But I would be indeed foolish to discard the terms used in scripture that speak of events and times soon to occur in those 1st-century days.  The ordinary use of these terms of imminence (soon, near, shortly, at hand, quickly, etc.) appear in various contexts well over 200 times in the NT alone, with many of these cases being connected to events surrounding Christ's second coming. 

If every other occurrence of these terms of imminence used in ordinary scripture conversation is accepted as something that really happened soon during NT times, why should the definition suddenly change into something meaningless, when the terms are tied to the second coming of Christ?  We shouldn't have to come up with an entirely new perception of time for these ordinary words such as "quickly, shortly, soon, near, and at hand" just because they are attached to predictions of Christ's second coming.  Those who do so reveal an agenda that is driving their interpretation; which is an accusation that is constantly thrown at the Preterist position by those doing that very thing themselves.

There is another accusation that simply doesn't fit the type of Preterist views I hold, and that is the charge of interpreting everything prophetic as only a symbol or a metaphor.  Not so.  I have painstakingly gone through each of Revelation's prophecies, and found that (even wrapped in symbolic language) the vast majority were literally fulfilled in a historical event on the 1st-century calendar that matched the prophetic language to a T. 

If this were only a couple prophecies that appeared to match with a historical event, that could be considered as merely coincidental.  However, those few Revelation prophecies for which I have not yet been able to find a 1st-century match, I can count on the fingers of one hand.

Fish153, you claim that those with any Preterist views are missing out on the great joy associated with Christ's appearing.  When you say that, you are lumping all those with Preteriest views into one generalized pile, which is unfortunate.  Personally, I cherish this hope of Christ's next PHYSICAL appearing as dearly as any posting here.  And as God is my witness, I have never experienced in my 45 years as a believer the level of joy that has grown deeper these last few years the further I study scripture from the perspective of God having actually fulfilled what He said He would do - and in the time period He said He would do it.  You couldn't pay me enough to abandon the position that gives me such confidence in my Father's perfectly-designed plan for the redemption of His children - both body...soul...and spirit.


Offline 3 Resurrections

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 275
  • Manna: 7
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #98 on: Tue Aug 15, 2017 - 15:53:54 »
RB  -  Before you plunge too deeply into an accusation that I have altered scripture in Revelation 22:10, you should go back and review this reference; you have actually misquoted it yourself.  Here it is, using the KJV that I believe you prefer.  "And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book; FOR THE TIME IS AT HAND."  I have not inserted a thing here.  I have twisted nothing. 

To seal something in scripture has always symbolized that an assured outcome was RESERVED FOR A LATER TIME.  Here, John is told NOT TO SEAL, or not to reserve these things for a later time, because that time was AT HAND as John was writing.  As I asked in the comment above to fish153, (for just one example) why does the phrase "AT HAND" mean a very near fulfillment for Christ's crucifixion in Matthew 26:18, but all of a sudden, the meaning for AT HAND changes drastically in Revelation 22:10 for all of Revelation's unsealed prophecies, simply because you think it should be different?  And this Revelation 22:10 verse at the close of Revelation's visions does sum up ALL of the prophetic sayings of Revelation, with the sole exception of Revelation 10:4 that John is told to leave SEALED UP, or reserved, for a later time.  That verse is the ONLY exception we are given the liberty to subtract from all those events which were AT HAND for John's readers.

As for the 2 Witnesses, when I state that their deaths are the symbolic and the literal elimination of the formerly-chosen Zadok line of high priests, I am not making this up out of thin air and my own imagination.  Do you remember Phinehas and his valiant action when he put a javelin through the belly of the Israelite man and Midianite woman in the tent, thus halting the plague that was devastating Israel for their disobedience?  God's promised reward in Numbers 25:12-13 for Phinehas and his zeal for the Lord was this: "Behold, I give unto him my covenant of peace.  And he shall have it, and his seed after him, even the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was zealous for his God, and made an atonement for the children of Israel." 

This promise of an "everlasting priesthood" was faithfully extended by God from Phinehas through his sons, down through ZADOK the high priest (see I Chron. 6:4-5) and JEHOZADAK, (see also Jeremiah 23:5-6 LX), who was the father of JOSHUA the high priest (Zechariah 6:11), one of the olive trees "STANDING BY THE LORD OF THE WHOLE EARTH" in Zechariah 3:1 and 14:4.  God continued to keep His promised covenant with Phinehas, Eleazar's son, by giving Zadok's family exclusive rights to the high priesthood in the post-exilic temple - UNTIL the New Covenant, when the Levitical priesthood was changed over to Jesus Christ - made a high priest after the different order of Melchisedec. 

At that point, the Zadok line of high priests was supposed to move out of the way to make way for Christ, the ultimate high priest.  Instead, the nation of Israel as a whole stubbornly rejected Christ in favor of what they were used to - the Zadok line of high priests who were within the Sadducee party (derived from the Zadok name).  God had to physically remove this competing Zadok line of high priests by having them die, one after another, until the last 2 surviving former high priests that prophesied were slain and left unburied in Jerusalem's streets in AD 67/68. 

This elimination of the last 2 "prophets" / Witnesses was predicted to happen in Zechariah 13:2.  "And it shall come to pass IN THAT DAY" (Jerusalem's siege - Zech. 12:2) "saith the Lord of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land" (anything attempting to compete with Christ's position as high priest became an idol, and would be cut off) "and they shall no more be remembered:  AND I WILL CAUSE THE PROPHETS" (the 2 witnesses / prophets) "AND THE UNCLEAN SPIRIT" (the unclean spirits imprisoned in Jerusalem - Rev. 18:2) "TO PASS OUT OF THE LAND" (this is GE - the land of Israel). 

The death of the 2 Witnesses who were the last Zadok high priest leaders of Israel is also found in Zechariah 13:7 LXX, "Awake, O sword, against MY SHEPHERDS", (the high priests), "and against the man who is my citizen, saith the Lord Almighty: SMITE THE SHEPHERDS, and draw out the sheep; and I will bring mine hand against the little ones."  These "little ones" are the "children" that Christ, on the way to the cross, told the weeping women of Jerusalem to weep for instead of for Himself.  These children and their mothers would live to experience the horrific conditions during the period leading up to and including the AD 67-70 siege against Judah and Jerusalem that Zechariah foretold in Zechariah 12:1-14.  (This is one example of a dual fulfillment in scripture, with Christ changing the word to "shepherd" - singular - to make this prophecy also apply to His own crucifixion.)

RB, you and I have gone over these Zechariah references before.  I believe somehow you applied them to Acts 2 and the Pentecost events of that time, if I am not mistaken?  I affirmed that this entire Zechariah 12:1 - 14:15 passage was one intact, prophetic message.  It included a series of events, all of which were predicted to happen IN THAT DAY - from the AD 67-70 siege period in Judah and Jerusalem (Zechariah 12:2) until the Lord would "stand in that day upon the Mount of Olives" (Zechariah 14:4), in a physical return with His holy ones - His second coming on the day of Pentecost in AD 70.  The result of His coming, after the earlier physical death and elimination of the Zadok high priesthood in Jerusalem's streets, would be Zechariah 14:9: "And the Lord shall be king (HIGH PRIEST) over all the earth: IN THAT DAY shall there be one Lord, and His name one" (no Zadok line of high priests left on earth to offer any feeble competition to Christ - the King of Kings - or High Priest of all High Priests). 

This is a reality we are still living in today.  Since believers are IN CHRIST, we share in the benefits of this heavenly high priesthood of His, and can approach the throne of God boldly. With His name on our foreheads (Rev. 22:4), God can accept us and our prayers as vicariously holy.

 

Offline fish153

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5418
  • Manna: 454
    • View Profile
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #99 on: Tue Aug 15, 2017 - 16:53:10 »
3 Resurrections--

I will give you just one example of how Preterism twists Scripture and "willingly" ignores the correct interpretation of Scripture to push their own agenda:

Jesus states:

“Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” (Matt. 16:28)

Many preterists use this verse to back their views about 70 AD and the return of Christ.  They state that this is proving that Christ will return very quickly--
and even some who are then living will see this actual return.  However, in the very next chapter we understand what Jesus is referring to:

"After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light". (Matthew 17:1,2)

The "some standing there that will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in His Kingdom" whom Jesus was referring to in Matthew 16:28 are most assuredly Peter, John and James.  How can I say this?  How do I know that Peter, John and James are being referred to?  Scripture itself explains it to us:

Peter states very clearly for us:

"For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain". (2 Peter 1:16-18)

Most Preterists refuse to acknowledge that what Jesus is referring to when He says that some standing there will not taste of death until they SEE the Son of Man coming in power and glory
is a reference to the TRANSFIGURATION which will take place (6) days later.  As we read Peter's words we understand that he SAW the Son of Man coming in great power and glory when he was with Jesus on the Holy Mount during the transfiguration--and so did John and James. This is Scripture clearly confirming Scripture--but some will still deny it.

I have argued this point with Preterists, and shown them clearly from these Scriptures what Jesus was referring to---but they will "willingly" ignore Scripture to hold to a Preterist doctrine. It is both  flabberghasting and amazing to me.  And much of Preterism is based on words like "quickly", "some standing here", "At hand", etc as reasons to believe that doctrine. I will state it clearly---it is a foolish doctrine, willingly believed and yet entirely unscriptural.
« Last Edit: Tue Aug 15, 2017 - 16:56:47 by fish153 »

Offline Rainbow

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 125
  • Manna: 30
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #100 on: Tue Aug 15, 2017 - 17:16:38 »
Amen fish.
Luke 9 says, "27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God. 28 And it came to pass about and 8 days after these sayings, he took Peter, John, and James, and went up into a mountain to pray. 29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering. 30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: 31 who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem. 32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake,  they saw his glory and the two men that stood with him."

Offline 3 Resurrections

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 275
  • Manna: 7
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #101 on: Tue Aug 15, 2017 - 23:23:04 »
fish153 and Rainbow  -  You both appear to be united in your position on what Peter meant by the "power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" in II Peter 1:16-18.  If you both believe that this was fulfilled on the Mount of Transfiguration, I will do my best to give a response to that. 

This is the same viewpoint I have read on this site before on another post (and other websites as well).  It could quite possibly have been your own comment that I encountered, fish153.  I doubt my answer will be acceptable to you, since you seem to have been convinced of your view for a long time, but for the sake of anyone reading this, I believe there is a reasonable answer from scripture for what Peter was referring to.

The "power and COMING of our Lord Jesus Christ", when the disciples heard the words "Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased" was at Christ's baptism.  This "coming" of Christ's was spoken of in John 1:11; "He CAME unto His own, and His own received Him not."  John the Baptist testified in John 1:27 that "He it is who COMING after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose."  Christ's baptism was when the heavens were opened and the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove descended and remained on Him.  This was simultaneous with God's voice from heaven being heard, giving honor to the Son, and completing the manifestation of the Trinity.

This very same voice that was heard first of all at Christ's baptism, when He "CAME unto His own" and was manifested as the Son of God - this voice the disciples also heard later on during their Mount of Transfiguration experience.  There was no "coming" of Christ that happened on the Mount: He had already "come unto His own" by being manifested as the Son of God when He was anointed at His baptism.

So, here is the II Peter 1:16-18 passage with inserted commentary in parentheses:

"For we" (the apostles) "have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (the word "Christ" meaning "the Anointed One", or the Messiah as found in John 1:41.  Christ came in fulfillment of Daniel 9:25's Messiah the Prince coming on the scene to His people at the beginning of the 70th week in AD 30) "but were eyewitnesses of His majesty." (when the glory of the Trinity was manifested from heaven at Christ's baptism)  "For" (in explanation of just how the apostles saw that revealed majesty) "He received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to Him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."  (Notice: this quote does not finish with "Hear ye Him", as they heard later on at the Mount of Transfiguration.)  "And this voice which came from heaven" (at Christ's baptism) "we heard" (they heard again one more time) "when we were with Him in the holy mount" (which voice said almost the same words as before at Christ's baptism). 

If the Mount of Transfiguration is equal to the "coming" of Christ, which some of those disciples standing in front of Him would not die until after 6 days later when they saw Christ transfigured, how did Christ's kingdom come with power at that time as Mark 9:1 said it would?  Here is the verse in Mark 13:26 that describes that "coming with power which was a promised experience to some of them standing in front of Christ at that time.  After describing the unparalleled tribulation, the false Christs and false prophets arising, signs, wonders, stars of heaven falling, powers in heaven being shaken, etc., Mark says, "And then shall they see the Son of Man coming in the clouds" (Christ never came in the clouds on the Mount of Transfiguration, because He had never left yet) "with GREAT POWER AND GLORY.  And THEN" (tote - at that time) "shall He send His angels" (no angels showed up on the Mount) "and shall gather together His elect from the four winds" (no elect were gathered together on the Mount) "from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."

The parallel, companion passage that duplicates Mark 9:1 is the Matthew 16:27-28 text brought up by fish153, which also presents some problems for the Mount of Transfiguration interpretation.  "For the Son of man shall come" (Jesus could not "come" because He had never left the earth before the Mount of Transfiguration experience) "in the glory of His Father WITH HIS ANGELS" (no angels were present on the Mount) "and then he shall reward every man according to his works" (no rewards were handed out to anyone on the Mount - let alone to "every man").  "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." (There was no kingdom appearance during the Mount of Transfiguration event). 

For all these reasons above, I believe the scriptures in Mark 9:1 and Matthew 16:27-28 have to stand just as they are presented.  Some standing in front of Christ as He spoke lived long enough in that generation to actually see Christ's bodily return.  He would be accompanied by angels, and in the power of His kingdom, He would gather His elect in a resurrection of the saints.  Christ's faithfulness in already fulfilling this promise to the letter should give us the added assurance that He can repeat the same gathering and resurrection for us in a yet future 3rd coming.

"Is anything too hard for the Lord?"

Offline RB

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3743
  • Manna: 240
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
    • View Profile
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #102 on: Wed Aug 16, 2017 - 06:10:15 »
RB  -  Before you plunge too deeply into an accusation that I have altered scripture in Revelation 22:10, you should go back and review this reference; you have actually misquoted it yourself.  Here it is, using the KJV that I believe you prefer.  "And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book; FOR THE TIME IS AT HAND."  I have not inserted a thing here.  I have twisted nothing. 
Thank you for bringing that to my attention. Here's what I did by mistake~I copied it and took it out and MEANT to put it back in red bold letters and forgot to do so. I corrected it above. BUT, my point remains the SAME. I will later answer your post, but cannot do so now for time sake. RB

Offline fish153

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5418
  • Manna: 454
    • View Profile
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #103 on: Wed Aug 16, 2017 - 10:51:37 »
3 resurrections--

You have done exactly as I stated Preterists do all the time. You jump through hoops to try to explain your position.  You are being "willingly ignorant" when
you do this. It is VERY clear that Peter in 2 Peter is referring to the transfiguration experience that he, John and James experienced in the "Holy Mountain" They
SAW Christ returning in power and glory---they were given a foretaste of that future return. They HEARD the voice of the Father at that time also.

Peter is telling all of us that he has SEEN (on the Mount) what the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ is----and that it is not a "cunningly devised fable" and will
most assuredly come to pass! He goes on to explain this in this chapter, and also in chapter 3 of the same Epistle. Again, to deny this is to be "willingly ignorant" be-
cause the scriptures are there for you to read and clearly see what is to come in the future.

There are "scoffers" who are unbelievers----and there are "scoffers" who are Preterists also. I am not calling you a scoffer 3 Resurrections----but I have literally seen
preterists "scoff" about the future return of Jesus Christ bodily to this earth. And that is why Peter says some of the scoffers are "willingly ignorant"---because the truth
is right in front of them---but they refuse to accept it---and would rather hold to their own doctrine.
« Last Edit: Wed Aug 16, 2017 - 10:54:02 by fish153 »

Offline AVZ

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 4901
  • Manna: 106
    • View Profile
Re: Why Preterism is False
« Reply #104 on: Wed Aug 16, 2017 - 13:06:31 »
I thought that Preterism was a rather interesting theory, so some time ago I started off exploring it.
At some point I just couldn't get around the fact that the prophesies in scripture about the end time, describe global events of such a massive scale that have not been fulfilled in history.
The effort that has to be made to explain rather clear language and intent just makes the theory so far fetched, and it appears to me that a lot of effort has to be made to forcefully insert scripture into the historical records.

But the main question has never been explained to me satisfactory. If Jesus has returned, why are we still here?
The attempts to answer this question always stretch beyond scripture. It requires a whole lot of imagination and assumption.

I simply cannot accept a theory that goes above and beyond scripture.