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Offline LaSpino3

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Why the tribulation?
« on: Thu Dec 21, 2017 - 16:37:23 »
Question, “Why the tribulation? Is it important to know why anyone has to go into the tribulation? Or is it more important as to who is going into the tribulation?

Laspino3

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Why the tribulation?
« on: Thu Dec 21, 2017 - 16:37:23 »

Offline bbyrd009

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Re: Why the tribulation?
« Reply #1 on: Fri Dec 22, 2017 - 08:32:10 »
Tribulation, capital T, is a great device to hide wisdom from the wise imo, and one's interpretation more or less reveals where they are spiritually, i guess.

Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

everyone endures tribulation, iow

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Re: Why the tribulation?
« Reply #1 on: Fri Dec 22, 2017 - 08:32:10 »

Offline notreligus

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Re: Why the tribulation?
« Reply #2 on: Fri Dec 22, 2017 - 10:34:56 »
All of mankind must endure tribulation because of the curse.   

Christ's finished work on the cross spiritually reconciled all who have faith in the Son of God and what He accomplished on the cross, and thus believers are no longer subject to the curse of spiritual death.   Physical death remains until the consummation.

Rom 5:17  For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:18  Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
Rom 5:19  For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.
Rom 5:20  Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
Rom 5:21  so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Adam and Eve were to live in Eden, a perfect world and environment and an unimpeded relationship with God Almighty, but they chose to give that up.    As a result this world is cursed and will remain so until this one is replaced by the New Earth where Christ will reign over His people.   And Satan for evermore will have been destroyed and his influence for evermore will be gone.   

Satan still has influence over this world and those who chose to reject the Son of God.   He has no rights over the believer as Christ calls the believer righteous before the Father, but as believers we are still in this world and we endure those things but have an assurance that unbelievers do not have.   

Heb 7:22  This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant.
Heb 7:23  The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office,
Heb 7:24  but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever.
Heb 7:25  Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.
Heb 7:26  For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens.
Heb 7:27  He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself.
Heb 7:28  For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever.

2Th 2:7  For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.
2Th 2:8  And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.

I believe the above is in keeping with the Scriptures and God's plan of redemption.


Dispensationals, especially Full Dispensationals, have a different and separate view of tribulation and predict a seven year period of Tribulation, including 3 1/2 years of Great Tribulation, before the return of Christ to set up a temporary Messianic kingdom.    They claim that this is the time for God to deal separately with the Jews/Israel to punish them and to eventually bring them back to Him.   

Zec 13:8  In the whole land, declares the LORD, two thirds shall be cut off and perish, and one third shall be left alive.
Zec 13:9  And I will put this third into the fire, and refine them as one refines silver, and test them as gold is tested. They will call upon my name, and I will answer them. I will say, 'They are my people'; and they will say, 'The LORD is my God.'"

Dispensationals believe that this passage from Zechariah refers to the Tribulation Period during which two-thirds of the Jews will be killed and one-third will turn to God as their Lord.   

Offline 4WD

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Re: Why the tribulation?
« Reply #3 on: Fri Dec 22, 2017 - 13:08:56 »
All of mankind must endure tribulation because of the curse.   

Christ's finished work on the cross spiritually reconciled all who have faith in the Son of God and what He accomplished on the cross, and thus believers are no longer subject to the curse of spiritual death.   Physical death remains until the consummation.

Rom 5:17  For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:18  Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
Rom 5:19  For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.
Rom 5:20  Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
Rom 5:21  so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

You, like so many others have so terribly misinterpreted those verses.  What those verses say, in fact, is that the result of Jesus' obedience set aside completely whatever the result of Adam's disobedience might have been. So many want to read the first part of those verses and interpret them as the statement of original sin universally for all men.  And that is perfectly acceptable.  Except of course, the second half of each of those sentences says that Jesus' death on the cross set that aside, universally, for all men.  Now please note that it says nothing about our sin; it is talking only about Adam's sin and the effect thereof.  You will admit that the original sin imposed by Adam's disobedience was [or would have been] imposed upon all men at birth;  therefore what Jesus death on the cross accomplished, among other things, was the imposition of "original grace" upon all men at birth.  It undid any effect upon mankind due to Adam's sin.  That is the message of those eight verses.

Then of course we must talk about the effect of Jesus' obedience upon mankind due to each one's own sins.  That Paul begins to speak about in the very next chapter, beginning actually with verse 20 of chapter 5. 

But Roman s 5:12-19 is not about each individual's sins, it is about Adam's sin.  Roman's 5:12-19 says there is no such thing as original sin.  There would have been had it not been for Jesus.  But as verses 12-19 say Jesus' obedience countermanded all that Adam did.  Jesus' obedience revoked Adam's disobedience. Original sin was rescinded.  And of course it was retroactive to all who lived before Jesus died, just as His death was a ransom for all of mankind even those who lived before Jesus died.

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Re: Why the tribulation?
« Reply #3 on: Fri Dec 22, 2017 - 13:08:56 »
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Offline notreligus

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Re: Why the tribulation?
« Reply #4 on: Fri Dec 22, 2017 - 16:52:46 »
You, like so many others have so terribly misinterpreted those verses.  What those verses say, in fact, is that the result of Jesus' obedience set aside completely whatever the result of Adam's disobedience might have been. So many want to read the first part of those verses and interpret them as the statement of original sin universally for all men.  And that is perfectly acceptable.  Except of course, the second half of each of those sentences says that Jesus' death on the cross set that aside, universally, for all men.  Now please note that it says nothing about our sin; it is talking only about Adam's sin and the effect thereof.  You will admit that the original sin imposed by Adam's disobedience was [or would have been] imposed upon all men at birth;  therefore what Jesus death on the cross accomplished, among other things, was the imposition of "original grace" upon all men at birth.  It undid any effect upon mankind due to Adam's sin.  That is the message of those eight verses.

Then of course we must talk about the effect of Jesus' obedience upon mankind due to each one's own sins.  That Paul begins to speak about in the very next chapter, beginning actually with verse 20 of chapter 5. 

But Roman s 5:12-19 is not about each individual's sins, it is about Adam's sin.  Roman's 5:12-19 says there is no such thing as original sin.  There would have been had it not been for Jesus.  But as verses 12-19 say Jesus' obedience countermanded all that Adam did.  Jesus' obedience revoked Adam's disobedience. Original sin was rescinded.  And of course it was retroactive to all who lived before Jesus died, just as His death was a ransom for all of mankind even those who lived before Jesus died.

I know precisely what those Scriptures mean and I thank God that I don't agree with you.  Romans Chapter Five is indeed about original sin and how only God's provision, the Second Adam, was able to reconcile mankind.  You will be in the same category of those Pharisees who denied Jesus as He had been revealed to them in the Scriptures.   In John Chapter Five Jesus told the Jewish leaders that Moses had revealed Him to them.   One who questions what is stated about Jesus in Genesis is not able to understand who Jesus is from Romans Chapter Five.   Science or intellectualism won't save anyone who must stand before the Father without Christ as their attorney.

You are describing a legal system.   The legal system never worked and the legal system had one purpose:   condemnation, not reconciliation.   You have your eyes and mind on what you do and what your intellect imagines, and you are not relying on what Christ has done for everyone, including you.   Right now you are rejecting what He has done.   

We have a better Covenant now.   It's time that you catch up instead of staying dependent upon the Law.

Heb 7:1  For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him,
Heb 7:2  and to him Abraham apportioned a tenth part of everything. He is first, by translation of his name, king of righteousness, and then he is also king of Salem, that is, king of peace.
Heb 7:3  He is without father or mother or genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but resembling the Son of God he continues a priest forever.
Heb 7:4  See how great this man was to whom Abraham the patriarch gave a tenth of the spoils!
Heb 7:5  And those descendants of Levi who receive the priestly office have a commandment in the law to take tithes from the people, that is, from their brothers, though these also are descended from Abraham.
Heb 7:6  But this man who does not have his descent from them received tithes from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises.
Heb 7:7  It is beyond dispute that the inferior is blessed by the superior.
Heb 7:8  In the one case tithes are received by mortal men, but in the other case, by one of whom it is testified that he lives.
Heb 7:9  One might even say that Levi himself, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham,
Heb 7:10  for he was still in the loins of his ancestor when Melchizedek met him.
Jesus Compared to Melchizedek
Heb 7:11  Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron?
Heb 7:12  For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.
Heb 7:13  For the one of whom these things are spoken belonged to another tribe, from which no one has ever served at the altar.
Heb 7:14  For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, and in connection with that tribe Moses said nothing about priests.
Heb 7:15  This becomes even more evident when another priest arises in the likeness of Melchizedek,
Heb 7:16  who has become a priest, not on the basis of a legal requirement concerning bodily descent, but by the power of an indestructible life.
Heb 7:17  For it is witnessed of him, "You are a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek."
Heb 7:18  For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness
Heb 7:19  (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.
Heb 7:20  And it was not without an oath. For those who formerly became priests were made such without an oath,
Heb 7:21  but this one was made a priest with an oath by the one who said to him: "The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind, 'You are a priest forever.'"
Heb 7:22  This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant.

Rom 8:32  He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?
Rom 8:33  Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.
Rom 8:34  Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.
« Last Edit: Fri Dec 22, 2017 - 16:57:29 by notreligus »

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Re: Why the tribulation?
« Reply #4 on: Fri Dec 22, 2017 - 16:52:46 »



Offline 4WD

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Re: Why the tribulation?
« Reply #5 on: Sat Dec 23, 2017 - 06:10:56 »
I know precisely what those Scriptures mean and I thank God that I don't agree with you.  Romans Chapter Five is indeed about original sin and how only God's provision, the Second Adam, was able to reconcile mankind. 
It is apparent that you do not know precisely what those Scriptures mean.  And that is because you are not reading what they say.  And that is such a shame.  Yes, those verses are about what might have been original sin had not Jesus obeyed and died on the Cross.  If you but read what they say and not what you have been led to believe, then it would be apparent to you.

Rom 5:18  So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

But unfortunately you refuse to believe what that verse says.  You insert a false theological teaching into that.  And you do the same for the next verse also;

Rom 5:19  For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

Just read what both verses actually say, without inserting your own false ideas into them.  But that is not really surprising since you do it with verse 12 also.

Rom 5:12  Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

If you read it as it is written, it says specifically why death spread to all men.  It does not say it was because Adam sinned that death spread to all men; rather it says that death spread to all men because all men sinned. It is sad that you reject out of hand what Paul said.




Offline 4WD

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Re: Why the tribulation?
« Reply #6 on: Sat Dec 23, 2017 - 06:14:21 »
You are describing a legal system.   
I am not describing any system, legal or otherwise.  I am simply reading to you what Paul actually said in Romans 5.

Offline bbyrd009

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Re: Why the tribulation?
« Reply #7 on: Sat Dec 23, 2017 - 12:05:53 »

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Why the tribulation?
« Reply #8 on: Sun Dec 24, 2017 - 08:46:16 »
So, who's going into the Tribulation?

1. Good guy's?

2. Bad guy's?

3. All guy's?

bbyrod009: Note, T in Tribulation, thanks! Question, If both of us were standing and talking, and a bull was behind you, and running straight at you, would you care if I said,

"Run, tribulation is coming straight at you! or,

"Run, Tribulation is coming straight at you!  Only joking!

Hay; all my friends have a safe and Merry Christmas, and remember to fill the Lord's stocking this coming year, it's going to be one heck of a ride.

Phil Laspino

Offline bbyrd009

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Re: Why the tribulation?
« Reply #9 on: Sun Dec 24, 2017 - 09:22:38 »
bbyrod009: Note, T in Tribulation, thanks!
ah, you'll have to quote that for me, sorry http://biblehub.net/search.php?q=tribulation
question, If both of us were standing and talking, and a bull was behind you, and running straight at you, would you care if I said,

"Run, tribulation is coming straight at you! or,

"Run, Tribulation is coming straight at you!  Only joking!
well i appreciate it either way, but coming from one who has added a capital T to tribulation, i would be pointing out that that bull has made many charges before, and will again, and the best advice would be to stay out of his pasture!

i understand the impression you are currently working with, ok, and how you got it, but i tell you that you can contemplate the Revelation of Christ as something that occurs in any seeker, and is prolly not limited to the single generation in some tomorrow that your pastor teaches, ok. And fwiw a lot of other Scripture has been made irrelevant or unavailable in the same way; note how you are discouraged from contemplating self as Cain or Esau, from day 1, right, when these are valuable lessons meant for believers, not ppl who do not even read the Book.

See, now you might plow your own ground or deny your birthright much easier, see.

You came to church from a fear of hell--same as me--and you are getting what you paid for, with all due respect. Now you are afraid of tomorrow too, see, when Scripture tells us to not even give a thought for tomorrow? So whenever a belief does not line up with the Book somewhere else, imo it is the belief that should be questioned.

churches teach the Law (Scripture) and they are great at doing that, bc they are legally an arm of government. And i am not here to diss the Law, either, Law is not evil or bad; it is just insufficient.

For Grace you are going to have to go outside the camp, i guess; but

Oh, let me warn you, sisters in Jerusalem: Don't excite love, don't stir it up, until the time is ripe—and you're ready.

btw if you would consider being thrown into a furnace a Tribulation, we might proceed from there maybe

Offline Choir Loft

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Re: Why the tribulation?
« Reply #10 on: Mon Feb 19, 2018 - 08:06:03 »
Question, “Why the tribulation? Is it important to know why anyone has to go into the tribulation? Or is it more important as to who is going into the tribulation?

Laspino3

The Biblical account of the tribulation is of a time of final judgment upon humanity and sin.  But the rationale of Biblical object lessons are lost on the current generation.  Instead a doctrine of demons has replaced it.

Beginning in the mid-19th century a major spiritual attack began upon Christendom and the precepts of the Bible.   Major changes appeared to corrupt interpretations of scripture and God's intentions for salvation and living before the Law.  As a result of this godless assault and acceptance of the resulting principles of eugenics(1) by all the world, the twentieth century became the bloodiest most destructive period of time in human history.

The doctrine of the Tribulation, as it now stands, is nothing more than an anti-semitic doctrine to justify hatred of Jews. 

According to the warped interpretation now accepted by evangelicals (not the original one, by the way) the purpose of the Tribulation is a second holocaust, a second mass murder of the Jewish race.   Why?  According to this travesty of scriptural interpretation, it's because Jews refuse to convert to American evangelistic Christianity.  According to the new version of the Tribulation doctrine Jews are to be murdered and beaten and beheaded until they repent of being Jewish.

Evangelical Christians as well as jihadic Muslims hope for, pray for, expect and watch for Jewish blood to flow - a second holocaust.  This is an aberration that is commonly accepted without any critical thinking or debate.

Another doctrine of demons is called the Rapture.  It is also anti-semitic in nature and suggests that when world events get dicey all evangelistic Christians will be miraculously beamed off the planet in an event very much like a Star Trek beam out.   According to this dogma ONLY evangelistic Christians will be removed.   Main stream Protestant denominations won't.   Roman Catholics won't.  The vast expanse and number of members of the Orthodox Christian communion won't.   Jews won't. 

It is a disgusting and flagrant abuse of the message of God's love and the ministry of Jesus Christ and is but one of the reasons many people are leaving evangelical churches(2).   The exodus is so enormous that nearly every church suffers from obscene debt because of the resulting decrease in donations.  Their foolishness is so great that despite the loss of revenue they still don't get it.  They still refuse to understand the message.  In the pursuit of donations, they've lost their money.  In the pursuit of foolish doctrines they have so encumbered themselves that they cannot see the logic of God's plan for humanity.  Believing themselves wise they have become fools intent on the murder of innocent Jews and the destruction of the legitimate political State of Israel.

"I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse..." God's covenant with Israel in Genesis 12:3

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

(1) Darwinism, the Final Solution as policy of German National Socialism as well as modern jihadist Islam.
(2) According to PEW and Gallup statistical polls, regular attendance (defined as once a month) in American churches has fallen 50% from 1948 levels.   Projections of this trend suggest attendance will fall to 10% by 2050.     
« Last Edit: Mon Feb 19, 2018 - 08:28:06 by Choir Loft »

Offline bbyrd009

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Re: Why the tribulation?
« Reply #11 on: Mon Feb 19, 2018 - 12:33:38 »
.

Offline soterion

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Re: Why the tribulation?
« Reply #12 on: Mon Feb 19, 2018 - 14:36:50 »
Believing themselves wise they have become fools intent on the murder of innocent Jews and the destruction of the legitimate political State of Israel.

"I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse..." God's covenant with Israel in Genesis 12:3

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

(1) Darwinism, the Final Solution as policy of German National Socialism as well as modern jihadist Islam.
(2) According to PEW and Gallup statistical polls, regular attendance (defined as once a month) in American churches has fallen 50% from 1948 levels.   Projections of this trend suggest attendance will fall to 10% by 2050.   

The current adherence to this covenant with Abraham is part of the foolishness of evangelical Christianity. It shaped some of the foreign policy with Israel by some of our evangelical presidents in the past, policies which didn't have to be based on this fear that the U.S.A. would be cursed in some way otherwise. I've known a lot of evangelicals over the years who were gripped with this fear because of the misapplication of that passage.

I had never heard before about evangelical groups being anti-Semitic. The doctrines of the Great Tribulation and the Rapture certainly affect more than just the Jews, and their belief in the Abrahamic Covenant being in force today (as far as the blessing and cursing is concerned) would seem to argue against their anti-Semitism.

Just my thoughts.  ::pondering::

Offline notreligus

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Re: Why the tribulation?
« Reply #13 on: Fri Feb 23, 2018 - 11:27:11 »
The current adherence to this covenant with Abraham is part of the foolishness of evangelical Christianity. It shaped some of the foreign policy with Israel by some of our evangelical presidents in the past, policies which didn't have to be based on this fear that the U.S.A. would be cursed in some way otherwise. I've known a lot of evangelicals over the years who were gripped with this fear because of the misapplication of that passage.

I had never heard before about evangelical groups being anti-Semitic. The doctrines of the Great Tribulation and the Rapture certainly affect more than just the Jews, and their belief in the Abrahamic Covenant being in force today (as far as the blessing and cursing is concerned) would seem to argue against their anti-Semitism.

Just my thoughts.  ::pondering::

Genesis 12:3  I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."

Galatians 3:16  Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many, but referring to one, "And to your offspring," who is Christ. 


Offline soterion

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Re: Why the tribulation?
« Reply #14 on: Fri Feb 23, 2018 - 14:07:30 »
Genesis 12:3  I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."

Galatians 3:16  Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many, but referring to one, "And to your offspring," who is Christ.

Well, since Paul, in Galatians 3, reminds us that in Christ there is no male or female, no Jew or Gentile, no slave or free, and also that those who are of the faith of Abraham are Abraham's seed, then I'd bet Paul would apply Genesis 12:3 to the church, not to physical Israel.  ::smile::

Offline bbyrd009

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Re: Why the tribulation?
« Reply #15 on: Tue Feb 27, 2018 - 11:45:42 »
Well, since Paul, in Galatians 3, reminds us that in Christ there is no male or female, no Jew or Gentile, no slave or free, and also that those who are of the faith of Abraham are Abraham's seed, then I'd bet Paul would apply Genesis 12:3 to the church, not to physical Israel.  ::smile::
ty :)

Offline larry2

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Re: Why the tribulation?
« Reply #16 on: Tue Mar 06, 2018 - 11:16:53 »
Question, “Why the tribulation? Is it important to know why anyone has to go into the tribulation? Or is it more important as to who is going into the tribulation?
Mat 28:18  And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Has Jesus taken that total power yet? Are all nations under His rule, and what will be needed to accomplish that?
Heb 2:8  Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet (Mt 28:18). For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

Is Jesus at this present time walking among the candlesticks judging the church (Rev 1:13, Rev 2:1)., and Revelation Chapters Two & Three are the ongoing revealing of that judgment.
1Pet 4:17  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Those not ready when Jesus first takes His own throne are the majority of the Church caught up out of great tribulation we read of in Rev 7:13-14, and last to be caught up will be the 144,000 all of Israel near the middle of the tribulation in Rev 14:1.

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

Offline soterion

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Re: Why the tribulation?
« Reply #17 on: Tue Mar 06, 2018 - 14:00:25 »
larry2,

Has Jesus taken that total power yet? Are all nations under His rule..?

Yes and yes.

Heb 2:8  Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet (Mt 28:18). For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

Compare your Hebrews 2:8 reference to 1 Corinthians 15:22-28. Christ is currently ruling with all authority. When He has subjected death and the resurrection of all takes place, then it is the end and He will subject Humself to the One who gave Him all rule and authority. That will be the end of His rule, as such, not the beginning.

Is Jesus at this present time walking among the candlesticks judging the church (Rev 1:13, Rev 2:1).

Yes, Jesus is currently walking among the candlesticks. He has been among the churches since the beginning. Nothing in the references you cited here say that His walking among them is strictly about judgment, or that it has anything to do with His judgment.

Jesus first took His throne, in fulfillment of prophecy, when He ascended on high to the right hand of God, after His resurrection. This is so stated by Peter in the Acts 2 sermon.

Offline larry2

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Re: Why the tribulation?
« Reply #18 on: Tue Mar 06, 2018 - 21:02:44 »
larry2,

Has Jesus taken that total power yet? Are all nations under His rule..?

Yes and yes.

Heb 2:8  Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet (Mt 28:18). For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

Compare your Hebrews 2:8 reference to 1 Corinthians 15:22-28. Christ is currently ruling with all authority. When He has subjected death and the resurrection of all takes place, then it is the end and He will subject Humself to the One who gave Him all rule and authority. That will be the end of His rule, as such, not the beginning.

Is Jesus at this present time walking among the candlesticks judging the church (Rev 1:13, Rev 2:1).

Yes, Jesus is currently walking among the candlesticks. He has been among the churches since the beginning. Nothing in the references you cited here say that His walking among them is strictly about judgment, or that it has anything to do with His judgment.

Jesus first took His throne, in fulfillment of prophecy, when He ascended on high to the right hand of God, after His resurrection. This is so stated by Peter in the Acts 2 sermon.
Hi Brother @soterion, and thanks for your reply.
Act 2:20  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come.
Are you aware that at this present time Jesus sits in our Father’s throne instead of His own
Rom 8:34  Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Eph 1:20  Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places
Col 3:1  If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Now when the Lord’s Day comes, and that is after these things John is told in Rev 4:1 which is to be the hereafter.
Jesus will receive His own throne in Rev 4:2, and the Day of the Lord begins. It is then His power becomes manifest as usurping nations, powers, the false prophet, the man of sin, and Satan make way to the King of kings, and Lord of lords as He exercises that all power given Him in Mt 28:18.
Just my thoughts are that we ain’t seen nothing yet as when we shall be face to face with Jesus ruling conjointly with Him as He exerts that all power He has.

Offline soterion

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Re: Why the tribulation?
« Reply #19 on: Tue Mar 06, 2018 - 21:50:15 »
larry2,

Concerning Acts 2:20, you need to start in verse 14 and finish with verse 21. Peter is saying that what was happening right then, that day, is the fulfillment of the descriptions in verses 17-21. The result of it all is that now, everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. That is true now, ever since that day, right? The Day of the Lord spoken of in that passage has come to pass.

Otherwise, you are focusing on the passages that say Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father, or of God. It seems the implication to you is that Christ is seated on His Father's throne, not His own. However...

Again, in Acts 2, Peter's sermon basically tells the crowd that the One they rejected and had crucified is the very One David spoke of as seated on his, David's, throne, in fulfillment of the plan of God and with His foreknowledge. Currently, Jesus rules in the midst of His enemies (Psalm 110:1-7). Note that He is described as "a Priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek," (Psalm 110:4; Hebrews 7:20-24). This all describes Jesus now. One more passage, just for fun: Zechariah 6:13. The One who will come and build the temple of the Lord and sit on His throne will be both king and priest. That can only describe Christ and the church. He is currently seated on His throne as King and High Priest.

Remember 1 Corinthians 15:22-28. This throne is the only one Jesus is going to have until comes the end when He subjects Himself to the One who gave Him all rule and authority. This will happen when the final enemy, death, is conquered and all are raised.

Of course, after that will come the administration of God's judgments (Matthew 25:31-46; John 5:28-29).

Offline larry2

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Re: Why the tribulation?
« Reply #20 on: Wed Mar 07, 2018 - 00:51:24 »
Concerning Acts 2:20, you need to start in verse 14 and finish with verse 21. Peter is saying that what was happening right then, that day, is the fulfillment of the descriptions in verses 17-21. The result of it all is that now, everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. That is true now, ever since that day, right? The Day of the Lord spoken of in that passage has come to pass.
Thanks again for your reply @soterion
Joel 2:1  Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
Joel 2:2  A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
2Th 2:8  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Act 2:17  And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18  And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Act 2:21  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
(Can this occur if the Act 2:17 is satisfied?)

Are we presently in the Last Days? (Yes!) Will The Lord’s Day continue the above blessings to those of the earth after we are caught up to heaven?

Offline larry2

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Re: Why the tribulation?
« Reply #21 on: Wed Mar 07, 2018 - 01:33:56 »
you are focusing on the passages that say Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father, or of God. It seems the implication to you is that Christ is seated on His Father's throne, not His own.
@soterion, you are correct; I am saying that, and in implying that to show when Jesus actually in these last days begins judgment of the world from His own throne.

Again referring to the place John finds himself according to Rev 1:10, he is in Spirit to that very time future that occurs; the Lord's Day, or the Day of the Lord.
Next from that future time of the Lord's Day, in Rev 1:19 John is told: Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Now let's go to Rev 4:1 to observe those things that are shown to John in that future time in heaven  which is hereafter after the Things which are John had already been shown during these last days. Are we today included in these things which are?

What new happens in the hereafter subsequent to John being caught up in spirit to heaven in Rev 4:1.
Rev 4:2  Rev 4:2  And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set (To put or place) in heaven, and One sat on the throne.
John sees a new throne placed with Jesus setting on it, and round about His throne were twenty-four elders in Rev 4:4 & four living ones int the midst of the throne in Rev 4:6. These caught up to God in heaven are saying "Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

Now let's take a look a look at our Father's throne Jesus goes to.
Rev 5:6  And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb (Jesus) as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. (Was this Jesus' new throne of Rev 4:2?)
Rev 5:7  And He (Jesus) came and took the book out of the right hand of Him (Our Father?) that sat upon the throne.

I'll leave off here lest it would extend into other subjects. Thanks

Offline soterion

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Re: Why the tribulation?
« Reply #22 on: Wed Mar 07, 2018 - 10:07:18 »
larry2,

Sometimes scripture gives us guidelines in how to interpret, especially with regard to figurative language.

In Acts 2, Peter quoted from Joel 2 and says these things are fulfilled in the events they were experiencing then, on that day.

In Revelation, we find interpretive guideleines to consider. In Revelation 1 verses 1 and 3 we find that the events written therein, "...must soon take place," and, "...the time is near..."We find the same thing in the last chapter, verses 6 and 10. These things, "...must soon take place..," and, "...the time is near..." I can't interpret the things described in Revelation as being fulfilled in some far distant future, especially as if they are not yet fulfilled and we have to look for some future (to us) fulfillment.

The apostle wrote that those things are "soon to take place" and "the time is at hand"...he bookmarked that revelation with those words. This refers to those people of the seven churches to whom those things were written. I have to believe the things written in Revelation were fulfilled at least within the lifetime of most of the people of the seven churhces who received the book. Otherwise, the given time restraints make no sense.

In both Acts 2 and Revelation, as well as 1 Corinthians 15, there are guidelines given that help me to avoid certain futuristic interpretations.

Offline larry2

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Re: Why the tribulation?
« Reply #23 on: Wed Mar 07, 2018 - 11:35:06 »

In Revelation, we find interpretive guideleines to consider. In Revelation 1 verses 1 and 3 we find that the events written therein, "...must soon take place," and, "...the time is near..."We find the same thing in the last chapter, verses 6 and 10. These things, "...must soon take place..," and, "...the time is near..." I can't interpret the things described in Revelation as being fulfilled in some far distant future, especially as if they are not yet fulfilled and we have to look for some future (to us) fulfillment.
Good morning @soterion. Thank you for your effort in giving me a reply. As I have read more of your thinking on this, do I discern an Amillennial interpretation? I have no problem interpreting Rev 4:1 as a future events viewpoint of prophesy from the day our Lord takes His own throne in heaven. You mention things beginning concerning judgment back in Joel and Acts Chapter Two as the Day of the Lord, whereas I read that in 1Co 15:24  Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. We're still in the times of the Gentiles. Satan is still not in the pit, nations rule against God, and I have seen no catching up of even the Great multitude. I just cannot agree with your doctrine on this.  Be blessed in Jesus' name.   ::applause::

Offline 4WD

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Re: Why the tribulation?
« Reply #24 on: Wed Mar 07, 2018 - 11:42:32 »
We're still in the times of the Gentiles.
What times of the Gentiles?

Gal 3:28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.


Offline soterion

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Re: Why the tribulation?
« Reply #25 on: Wed Mar 07, 2018 - 14:46:09 »
larry2,

I am non-millennial. I hold to no millennial interpretation that is promoted by Pre-, A-, or Postmillennials. Whatever the thousand year reign is in Rev 20, it has to be understood within the time factor given by the one who wrote it, "...the time is at hand..." and "...will shortly come to pass..."

You seem to be depending on what you have seen, or on some literal fulfillment of the figures given in various passages. If you feel like something has not been obviously fulfilled according to what you can see or understand, then it has not been fulfilled. That is a poor way to try and understand the figures.

For me, even if I cannot understand exactly what a figure refers to, if the context of the passage tells me that it has to have already been fulfilled, then I have to accept that.

In any case, it has been a blessing to share thoughts with you. God bless...