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Offline chosenone

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immodesty in church
« on: Sun Nov 16, 2008 - 22:52:15 »
I would like to know how you pastors and church leaders woud deal with immodesty in you church. By this I mean those who show off cleavage, most of their legs, wear very tight and clingy clothes or see thorugh clothes etc etc.
Our pastors way of dealing it is to do nothing, so nothing ever changes.
.

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immodesty in church
« on: Sun Nov 16, 2008 - 22:52:15 »

Offline pastordanny

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #1 on: Mon Nov 17, 2008 - 07:18:24 »
We deal with things like that thru our different ministries.. For example, my wife heads up the Ladies ministry.. If there is an issue, she deals with it there... Fortunately, we don't have much of a problem there... I guess maybe being in the South, there is a little more respect for the church house than in some parts of the country..

Offline TheMommyJezebel

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #2 on: Mon Nov 17, 2008 - 07:21:51 »
My dad was a pastor for years....his policy was, when they first started coming, say nothing, and give them time to see what the regulars wear, if after they had been coming a while, and still dressed innapropriately, either my mother or any woman in the church could address it in love......I handled it once with a new lady, I went out and bought her an appropriate dress, and gave it as a gift to her, while explaining that now that she was a member, she would need to dress modestly when in church.....


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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #2 on: Mon Nov 17, 2008 - 07:21:51 »

Offline chosenone

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #3 on: Mon Nov 17, 2008 - 07:42:46 »
Pastor DannyHow would your wife have dealt with it?
By the way, I am in the Uk. I havent found it to be an issue at churches I have been to in the past, but in the one we go to now it is. Some of the girls and women,(who by the way are all Christians and not new members) dress very badly.
We have mentioned it to the pastor and elders and while they agree that it is an issue they wont have any teaching about it. They have mentioned it to the youth leader for possible teaching, but it isnt just the young people, and the youth leader isnt always dressed modestly anyway!
Our pastor is a widow so he hasnt got a wife to deal with it, but there is a women on the leadrship team.
I think that everyone is far too worried about opening a potential can of worms, especially as the parents of the young women who are the worst at this also go to church and they obviously approve.
I am rather fed up with it, even to the point of wanting to leave now.God has been leading me to be  modest in dress and even before I was a Christian I dressed quite modestly anyway, ie not showing cleavage or wearing very short skirts etc.

 

Offline sopranette

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #4 on: Mon Nov 17, 2008 - 07:46:59 »
It's really more appropriate for the senior women in the church to instruct women in this area.  The younger women can learn by example, too. Getting the pastor involved seems like a bad idea somehow.

love,

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #4 on: Mon Nov 17, 2008 - 07:46:59 »



Offline chosenone

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #5 on: Mon Nov 17, 2008 - 10:43:53 »
It's really more appropriate for the senior women in the church to instruct women in this area.  The younger women can learn by example, too. Getting the pastor involved seems like a bad idea somehow.

love,

Sopranette

The older women dont say anything and I, as a middle aged woman dont feel as if I am allowed to say anything becuase of what I have been told. I dont think the younger ones will learn from the older ones  as some older ones are quite bad also. Also the worst culprits, who are in the mid teen age group have been coming to church for ages and still havent changed. if their parents dont say anything to them, how is anyone else allowed to do so? One of them never ever wears anything modest, she always comes dressed a if she is going to a night club or something.Her parens are Christians but domt seem bothered. I really dont think she possesses anything modest, and that is the truth.
I think it is unfair for the guys there, especially the young ones,who should be able to go to church without having to cope with this temptation.

I think it would be really good if the pastor or another teacher could give a sermon on modesty. After all, it is in the Bible. However I have given up hope of change, and we may have to decide as to whether to leave and go somewhere else.
I do think the church is becoming really worldly, which is sad. in fact, one of my daughters who isnt a christian, dresses much more modestly than some in our church.

Offline Turtle

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #6 on: Fri Mar 20, 2009 - 22:48:11 »
Chosenone - thanks for bringing this up. We have the same issue at a prospective church we've been visiting. I was relieved when I mentioned it to my husband and he had noticed, too. Like you say, the clothing choices were more appropriate for a club. I do not know how to address it, either, seeing as we are only prospective members. But it definitely makes me think twice about becoming a regular.

Offline chosenone

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #7 on: Fri Mar 20, 2009 - 23:12:45 »
Chosenone - thanks for bringing this up. We have the same issue at a prospective church we've been visiting. I was relieved when I mentioned it to my husband and he had noticed, too. Like you say, the clothing choices were more appropriate for a club. I do not know how to address it, either, seeing as we are only prospective members. But it definitely makes me think twice about becoming a regular.


 Hi Turtle
Well we decided to leave that church after about 18 months because even though we did bring it up with the leaders, nothing was done and they even had a christmas party shortly after this with the theme 'glamour and glitz dress to impress' which as you can imagine bought out some very immodest clothes. That was the last straw for us and we now go to a New frontiers church where the dress is more modest and do you know the atmosphere is totally different and far more respectful. There are loads of teenagers as well and they all seem to dress really nicely.
Think carefully about going there and just make sure that God wants you there and that you will be able to put up with the constant showing of cleavage, midfiffs and most of legs as we did.

Offline Hot Ice

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #8 on: Wed Jan 13, 2010 - 20:38:39 »
I appreciate this topic.  I've seen chruches that have women's ministries that dealt with it, as mentioned above; I've also seen churches that had no women's ministry, in which the Pastor did say something from the pulpit--very risky, bold, and unpopular, in today's age.  Definitely a price to pay for that--during the blessing, that is!

I've had to leave church services in which the women were "going for it".  I've also brought it up to people, who responded as though I were the only one out of line, and as though I were accusing the women of being less than I, evil in purpose, etc.  and I was intimidated out of saying any more--for fear of accusation, and even lawsuit.

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #8 on: Wed Jan 13, 2010 - 20:38:39 »

Offline chosenone

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #9 on: Wed Jan 13, 2010 - 21:27:22 »
I appreciate this topic.  I've seen chruches that have women's ministries that dealt with it, as mentioned above; I've also seen churches that had no women's ministry, in which the Pastor did say something from the pulpit--very risky, bold, and unpopular, in today's age.  Definitely a price to pay for that--during the blessing, that is!

I've had to leave church services in which the women were "going for it".  I've also brought it up to people, who responded as though I were the only one out of line, and as though I were accusing the women of being less than I, evil in purpose, etc.  and I was intimidated out of saying any more--for fear of accusation, and even lawsuit.
 

I think that is the problem, no one wants to say anything for fear of opening a can of worms. In my experience some leaders are too worried about what people think of them, than of doing what is right. When DH and I mentioned it to one of the leaders, we also felt that we were in the wrong.(even though they were aware of the problem). I am so glad that we left that church, but its sad that a few women can ruin it for others. many of the ladies there were lovely.

Offline Hot Ice

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #10 on: Wed Jan 13, 2010 - 21:33:50 »
I appreciate this topic.  I've seen chruches that have women's ministries that dealt with it, as mentioned above; I've also seen churches that had no women's ministry, in which the Pastor did say something from the pulpit--very risky, bold, and unpopular, in today's age.  Definitely a price to pay for that--during the blessing, that is!

I've had to leave church services in which the women were "going for it".  I've also brought it up to people, who responded as though I were the only one out of line, and as though I were accusing the women of being less than I, evil in purpose, etc.  and I was intimidated out of saying any more--for fear of accusation, and even lawsuit.
 

I think that is the problem, no one wants to say anything for fear of opening a can of worms. In my experience some leaders are too worried about what people think of them, than of doing what is right. When DH and I mentioned it to one of the leaders, we also felt that we were in the wrong.(even though they were aware of the problem). I am so glad that we left that church, but its sad that a few women can ruin it for others. many of the ladies there were lovely.
Yyyyyyyyyyes.  I can't say that I still run from a good can of worms, but going down a hole, never to come back is a little much for my level of faith, right now.  I hope to see the day in which I'm willing to go ayead and go to jail (my brother sees it often, as he works in the system) over a woman's accusation or angry retaliation.  i don't see women going to jail over confronting a woman, but it's much different in the U.S. for men that approach women.

I'm getting sick of being intimidated, but am just wanting to still walk wisely, and think--before making what could be a life-altering decision.

Offline Hot Ice

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #11 on: Wed Jan 13, 2010 - 21:48:21 »
Chosen,

What do you see as needing to be done at this point, given the state of thinking around the world, regarding immodesty in church?  From Men?  From Women?  From Pastors?

Offline chosenone

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #12 on: Wed Jan 13, 2010 - 22:38:50 »
Well in churches where this is an issue I think there needs to be teaching for the front about what Paul says about modesty and not doing anything to draw attention to ourslves. I have never heard a teaching ever on this,and I have been a christian for over 30 odd years.  Also if there are particular women who are dresing immodestly then one of the elders (or maybe their wives) need to quietly say something to them about it.
I know two elders form two different churches, and they both say that they would do this if it became necessary.Generally here in the UK most Christian women are modest  Its just a small number of churches and a few women who really do go to the other extreem.Boy have I seen some sights from a few women. Even I was shocked and I dont shock easily believe me.

The trouble is that the world standards have crept into some churches,and people seem to forget that we are supposed to be different and not just go along with the worlds standards.  All I can say is the more godly the women are who I know, the more modestly they dress.

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #13 on: Thu Jan 14, 2010 - 09:21:01 »
I would like to know how you pastors and church leaders woud deal with immodesty in you church. By this I mean those who show off cleavage, most of their legs, wear very tight and clingy clothes or see thorugh clothes etc etc.
Our pastors way of dealing it is to do nothing, so nothing ever changes.
.
It is a matter of maturing and does not require confrontation by congregational leaders. Best approach - let the elders' wives handle it. Assuming of course, they have the skill and demeanor to do so.

Offline chosenone

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #14 on: Thu Jan 14, 2010 - 09:26:57 »
I would like to know how you pastors and church leaders woud deal with immodesty in you church. By this I mean those who show off cleavage, most of their legs, wear very tight and clingy clothes or see thorugh clothes etc etc.
Our pastors way of dealing it is to do nothing, so nothing ever changes.
.
It is a matter of maturing and does not require confrontation by congregational leaders. Best approach - let the elders' wives handle it. Assuming of course, they have the skill and demeanor to do so.

  yes in many cases the wives will handle it. As for it being a matter of maturing, some of the women who do it have been christians for many many years. Oh well.

HRoberson

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #15 on: Thu Jan 14, 2010 - 09:33:32 »
I would like to know how you pastors and church leaders woud deal with immodesty in you church. By this I mean those who show off cleavage, most of their legs, wear very tight and clingy clothes or see thorugh clothes etc etc.
Our pastors way of dealing it is to do nothing, so nothing ever changes.
.
It is a matter of maturing and does not require confrontation by congregational leaders. Best approach - let the elders' wives handle it. Assuming of course, they have the skill and demeanor to do so.

  yes in many cases the wives will handle it. As for it being a matter of maturing, some of the women who do it have been christians for many many years. Oh well.
Unfortunately, time in church doesn't equal maturity. Just ask Blit - he'll tell you.

Offline chosenone

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #16 on: Thu Jan 14, 2010 - 09:34:48 »
I would like to know how you pastors and church leaders woud deal with immodesty in you church. By this I mean those who show off cleavage, most of their legs, wear very tight and clingy clothes or see thorugh clothes etc etc.
Our pastors way of dealing it is to do nothing, so nothing ever changes.
.
It is a matter of maturing and does not require confrontation by congregational leaders. Best approach - let the elders' wives handle it. Assuming of course, they have the skill and demeanor to do so.

  yes in many cases the wives will handle it. As for it being a matter of maturing, some of the women who do it have been christians for many many years. Oh well.
Unfortunately, time in church doesn't equal maturity. Just ask Blit - he'll tell you.
 

yes I agree. In some maturity comes much more quickly than in others.

Offline Hot Ice

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #17 on: Thu Jan 14, 2010 - 22:59:47 »
There's something to be said for not expecting maturity to come by leaving people to do as they wish, saying nothing to them at all.  Galatians tells us that if one of us is caught in a fault (sin), those who are spiritual should restore that person in a spirit of meekness, considering ourselves (examining, being honest with ourselves), lest we be tempted, too.

Offline chosenone

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #18 on: Fri Jan 15, 2010 - 02:46:30 »
There's something to be said for not expecting maturity to come by leaving people to do as they wish, saying nothing to them at all.  Galatians tells us that if one of us is caught in a fault (sin), those who are spiritual should restore that person in a spirit of meekness, considering ourselves (examining, being honest with ourselves), lest we be tempted, too.
 

yes I agree. After all, if a person was disobeying God in another way, such as stealing or lying or committing adultery, would we just wait till they had got mature enough to stop, or should somethng be said to them?

Offline Rob, PGK

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #19 on: Sat Jan 16, 2010 - 00:06:56 »
Our Priest actually brought it up after a homily one day. He didn't point anyone out and he addressed appropriate dress towards women and men. After this, things changed somewhat.

Offline chosenone

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #20 on: Sat Jan 16, 2010 - 02:53:33 »
Our Priest actually brought it up after a homily one day. He didn't point anyone out and he addressed appropriate dress towards women and men. After this, things changed somewhat.


 Good for him.

son of God

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #21 on: Sat Jan 16, 2010 - 08:02:41 »
Yes, there must indeed be different level of spiritual maturity.  That's not the problem.  Just because one is having a problem doesn't mean that we ignore it, does it?  Do we ignore our own children's problems, because they aren't as mature as us, the parents? 

"Those who sin, rebuke openly, that the rest might fear."  You sin openly, you get rebuked openly.  Pretty basic stuff.  But the church, generally speaking, doesn't do this.  They are too learned and wise to do this.  Whatever.

The actions flow from the heart.  Why do we have such actions going on for years in the church?  It shows the heart of the leadership loud and clear.  We follow as we are led.  We lead as we follow Christ. 

Pastors have openly told me that "you can't change the church".  They are more interested in the praise of man than the praise of God.  And it shows in their congregational problems that aren't dealt with or victory gotten in regard to.

But us be in sin?  Gasp!  How dare you say such a thing!  And the leadership be at fault spiritually?  I'm an ignorant oaf that just goes around sowing discord instead of unity.  Whatever.  Enjoy the wicked fruits and the problems that are pervasive.  So much for believing that God will destroy those who defile His temple: which temple we are.

Far, far too much lip service is rendered, but the hearts are proven to be far from God, even as they vehemently avow otherwise and get offended over! 

Good to see that you stand up for what's right, Chosenone.  It will cost you: it cost the Savior.  If they did it to Him, how much more will they do it to you?  They murdered the prophets, just as their fathers did.  By their fruits you will know them.  After the first and second admonition, from such turn aside, knowing that they are warped and SELF CONDEMNED.  The proof is in the pudding, and they are self condemned. 

It is well past the time in which the person should continue to stand in the congregation and state that the naked king is richly robed.  Do not be part or party to such.  "Do you not know that bad company corrupts good character?"  Psalm 1 is of note.

ex cathedra

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #22 on: Sat Jan 16, 2010 - 13:40:03 »


               one would not want to chase a visitor out who needs to hear about Jesus .

but   At times younger female members need correction by older ladies of the congregation .

 i would think it would be rare in deed for the pastor to have to speak to a lady member about this because other members turned a blind eye to it.



 

Offline chosenone

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #23 on: Sat Jan 16, 2010 - 13:58:14 »


               one would not want to chase a visitor out who needs to hear about Jesus .

but   At times younger female members need correction by older ladies of the congregation .

 i would think it would be rare in deed for the pastor to have to speak to a lady member about this because other members turned a blind eye to it.



 
   

In my experience pastors do need to do this (or at least their wives)People do indeed turn a blind eye,and what do you do if the woman or girls parents are there with them and obviously think that what their daughters wear is ok?
I was never talking about new comers, I mean women who are Christians and regular members of the church. A new comer should never be spoken to about what she is wearing until she is a regular member.

Offline OldDad

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #24 on: Sat Jan 16, 2010 - 14:37:13 »
So, what happens if my wife - I'm the pastor - doesn't think the same things equal "modesty" that you do?  What if she's fine with what the person is wearing?

Who decides, and where are the specific Bible guidelines for doing that?


Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #25 on: Sat Jan 16, 2010 - 14:42:05 »


               one would not want to chase a visitor out who needs to hear about Jesus .

but   At times younger female members need correction by older ladies of the congregation .

 i would think it would be rare in deed for the pastor to have to speak to a lady member about this because other members turned a blind eye to it.  



 
 

In my experience pastors do need to do this (or at least their wives)People do indeed turn a blind eye,and what do you do if the woman or girls parents are there with them and obviously think that what their daughters wear is ok?
I was never talking about new comers, I mean women who are Christians and regular members of the church. A new comer should never be spoken to about what she is wearing until she is a regular member.

My congregation has taken care of this.  All women are required to wear choir like robes to the service.  And that way, they never fight about who has better clothes.  Kinda like the kids in public schools who have dress codes.  ::tippinghat::

ex cathedra

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #26 on: Sat Jan 16, 2010 - 15:04:15 »


               one would not want to chase a visitor out who needs to hear about Jesus .

but   At times younger female members need correction by older ladies of the congregation .

 i would think it would be rare in deed for the pastor to have to speak to a lady member about this because other members turned a blind eye to it.



 
 

In my experience pastors do need to do this (or at least their wives)People do indeed turn a blind eye,and what do you do if the woman or girls parents are there with them and obviously think that what their daughters wear is ok?
I was never talking about new comers, I mean women who are Christians and regular members of the church. A new comer should never be spoken to about what she is wearing until she is a regular member.

most often with members  the pastor allready has spoken about this in bible information class or perhaps a catechism class of some type  .

 and have you not noticed that being  more  modestly dressed  does not always gurantee  a person will always act as he or she is dressed. and a person less modestly dressed may act as if he or she is modestly dressed.


Offline Hot Ice

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #27 on: Sat Jan 16, 2010 - 17:50:42 »


               one would not want to chase a visitor out who needs to hear about Jesus .

but   At times younger female members need correction by older ladies of the congregation .

i would think it would be rare in deed for the pastor to have to speak to a lady member about this because other members turned a blind eye to it.

 
I wish that were, indeed, the case.

son of God

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #28 on: Sat Jan 16, 2010 - 18:19:22 »
OD had a very good point: who regulates this stuff?

Which brings us to: should it be regulated?

May I suggest this: If the hearts are being dealt with spiritually, so as to mature them in Christ, the actions will follow.  There are times when the actions need to be specifically controlled, due to problems that ensue if they aren't, but many times that is seen as the "cure" or the corrective measure, when it is actually misplaced zeal.  We can regulate anything and everything, which has already been done, but we can't change the heart by such things.

Address the problem of the heart, and in some instances also address the actions which flow from them.  As to what specifically needs to be done in that latter aspect, that is up to the leadership to know the mind of God and follow the Spirit's leading, case by case, and possibly even generally.  Yet I have seen that sooner or later, after rules have been initiated, that the rules become stronger or greater than they should be, and the emphasis is eventually placed upon the rules instead of the heart and what we are personally doing to build each other in these things. 

Take the "offending" party under your wing.  Pour your life into them as you guide them.  Point them, then step back and let God do His thing.  This is situationally done, and I don't think that there are "3 steps" to follow in order to have "success".

Just my two bits here.

Offline Hot Ice

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #29 on: Mon Jan 18, 2010 - 18:29:31 »
OD had a very good point: who regulates this stuff?

Which brings us to: should it be regulated?

May I suggest this: If the hearts are being dealt with spiritually, so as to mature them in Christ, the actions will follow.  There are times when the actions need to be specifically controlled, due to problems that ensue if they aren't, but many times that is seen as the "cure" or the corrective measure, when it is actually misplaced zeal.  We can regulate anything and everything, which has already been done, but we can't change the heart by such things.

Address the problem of the heart, and in some instances also address the actions which flow from them.  As to what specifically needs to be done in that latter aspect, that is up to the leadership to know the mind of God and follow the Spirit's leading, case by case, and possibly even generally.  Yet I have seen that sooner or later, after rules have been initiated, that the rules become stronger or greater than they should be, and the emphasis is eventually placed upon the rules instead of the heart and what we are personally doing to build each other in these things. 

Take the "offending" party under your wing.  Pour your life into them as you guide them.  Point them, then step back and let God do His thing.  This is situationally done, and I don't think that there are "3 steps" to follow in order to have "success".

Just my two bits here.
Sure it should be regulated.  God puts people in positions to regulate EVERYTHING.  No regulation= no order, which is not of God. 

The question of HOW should it be regulated will flush out into the open the assumption of what is meant by regulation.  It should be confronted, and addressed--all according to the Word, for the Word's puposes, using the Word's methods, controlled by the Holy Spirit.

The problem you mention here is embarrassingly common, as well, though.  You're right, that rules become the focus, sometimes.  People leave the Word when they do that, just as much as they deny the Word when they won't listen to what the Word says about how to present their bodies in the presence of others that are going to be affected by their choice.

I heard the original question as address those who have been approached lovingly long ago:  from the pulpit, from T.V., from books, from magazines, from the internet, and in person, regarding their dress.  Women who have been members/christians for quite some time--yet, will not surrender and bring this under God's control by obeying the Word.

Joseph shall add

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #30 on: Wed Jan 27, 2010 - 22:16:12 »
I once went to a new church and this beautiful young lady then came in and set in the seat right in front of me. She has long blonde hair and a see through white body stocking dress with shining gliter on it. She was indeed a knnock out. I about lost my composure. I had to shut my eyes to worship the Lord. Latter i found out she was the ministers daughter. LOL

HRoberson

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #31 on: Wed Jan 27, 2010 - 23:54:09 »
Did you join?

Offline chosenone

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #32 on: Thu Jan 28, 2010 - 04:29:35 »
I once went to a new church and this beautiful young lady then came in and set in the seat right in front of me. She has long blonde hair and a see through white body stocking dress with shining gliter on it. She was indeed a knnock out. I about lost my composure. I had to shut my eyes to worship the Lord. Latter i found out she was the ministers daughter. LOL
 

That sort of says it all really.If the minsiter cant see that what his daughter is wearing is immodest then what hope is there, and others feel that they cant say anything because of who she is. I am sure she knew exactly what she was doing as well. Its so sad and so selfish.

Joseph shall add

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #33 on: Thu Jan 28, 2010 - 15:19:04 »
No but i should have.

Offline chosenone

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #34 on: Thu Jan 28, 2010 - 15:30:17 »
No but i should have.


 Why, do you like women who dress like that?