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Offline Hot Ice

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #35 on: Thu Jan 28, 2010 - 17:04:05 »

That sort of says it all really.If the minsiter cant see that what his daughter is wearing is immodest then what hope is there, and others feel that they cant say anything because of who she is. I am sure she knew exactly what she was doing as well. Its so sad and so selfish.
It sure is sad and selfish. 

And I see what you mean about her likely knowing what she was doing.  That comment brought to mind how consistently I hear defenses of this kind of thing, from those who insist that the women who do that most likely do NOT know what they're doing.  It discouraged me from speaking up, many times, seeing that if those that I approach about it are believing that it's done innocently, that makes the entire conversation turn to what a wretch I must be, as I'm having troubles with it.  The most disappointing part about that is that those conversations very rarely result in any help with the temptation--only a tangled web of accusation and attack/defense mindsets.

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #35 on: Thu Jan 28, 2010 - 17:04:05 »

Offline chosenone

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #36 on: Fri Jan 29, 2010 - 02:44:11 »

That sort of says it all really.If the minister cant see that what his daughter is wearing is immodest then what hope is there, and others feel that they cant say anything because of who she is. I am sure she knew exactly what she was doing as well. Its so sad and so selfish.
It sure is sad and selfish. 

And I see what you mean about her likely knowing what she was doing.  That comment brought to mind how consistently I hear defenses of this kind of thing, from those who insist that the women who do that most likely do NOT know what they're doing.  It discouraged me from speaking up, many times, seeing that if those that I approach about it are believing that it's done innocently, that makes the entire conversation turn to what a wretch I must be, as I'm having troubles with it.  The most disappointing part about that is that those conversations very rarely result in any help with the temptation--only a tangled web of accusation and attack/defense mindsets.
 

 Manna to you Hotice for yet another thoughtful and insightful post.
I have notice the same thing as you, particularly on another forum that I go on. If I try (even as a woman)to point out that women shouldn't dress like that I get attacked.
Apparently its all the mans fault and  the women are the poor Innocent victims who don't know any better. I mean, come on, 99% of them know EXACTLY what they are doing . I was also told on the other forum that if the man was a spiritual Christian he shouldn't have any problems with a scantily dressed women  standing in front of him, because it shouldn't be a temptation for him. I mean, what????
This was because I said that my husband closes his eyes if that happens to him, so apparently she said that he shouldn't need to do that if he was 'spiritual' enough.He does do that BECAUSE he is a godly man,and not because he ISNT a godly man..

In our last church, when we mentioned to the leaders about a few of the women and one or two in particular, we were told that they were really nice ladies, as if that made it OK.!!!AS you said hotice, you end up feeling like the bad guys for even thinking it may be a problem. I am sure that everyone noticed it but most of the guys just looked anyway and thought nothing of it.  I am SOO glad we left that church and we have never looked back as in our church now its rarely an issue.The pastor there, while being a  nice guy, was too worried about being everyones mate than tackling such things.

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #37 on: Fri Jan 29, 2010 - 17:15:56 »
I should have ask them to join and told them i have been wanting to join a loose church were anythinf goes. LOL

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #37 on: Fri Jan 29, 2010 - 17:15:56 »

Offline Hot Ice

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #38 on: Sat Jan 30, 2010 - 23:11:54 »
I should have ask them to join and told them i have been wanting to join a loose church were anythinf goes. LOL
That church sure would have quite an "interesting" congregation!!  LOL!  What kingdom work do you realy think they would ever get done?

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #39 on: Sun Jan 31, 2010 - 09:28:32 »
I should have ask them to join and told them i have been wanting to join a loose church were anythinf goes. LOL
That church sure would have quite an "interesting" congregation!!  LOL!  What kingdom work do you realy think they would ever get done?

It's called doing a "saved tease".

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #39 on: Sun Jan 31, 2010 - 09:28:32 »



Offline Hot Ice

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #40 on: Mon Feb 01, 2010 - 22:58:52 »
I've taken a lot of heat from other Christians for actually moving continually away from any woman in church who dresses like that--for the same reason I'd keep moving away from a person carrying a lighter if I were carrying a carrying a tub of gasoline.

I would sit in the front, just to limit what I was able to see; but at some churches, they have the trouble come right out there on the stage/podium.  I remember a "drama" that one of the church leaders (a woman) put together, in which about 8 girls came out to do a "fashion show" demonstrating the pieces of Christian armor.  Some of the girls came out swiveling their hips unbelievably.  At the end, they had the girls turn around, BEND OVER, and take off the pieces of armor, before leaving the stage!  It gets pretty ridiculous, especially when hearing the downplaying of this kind of stuff.

Sexual modesty is just as much about how one MOVES, etc. as it is about how they dress.  The dress is many times just a beginning, an indicator of the behavior that really follows, sooner or later.  I don't know of any truly quiet spirit that persists in showing big cleavage, hip-hugging pants and shorts, midriffs, long splits with heels, etc.   Despite being gently approached.

Offline Hot Ice

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #41 on: Thu Feb 11, 2010 - 17:29:08 »
Dont' know if you guys agree with me that the people in churches that seem to "go for it" with shocking/revealing/provocative dress, the rest of their life seems to reveal a lack of concern/hunger/respect for the authority/love/honor of god in other areas, as well.....(?)

Offline JohnDB

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #42 on: Mon Feb 15, 2010 - 04:34:41 »
If you can put the PK issues aside for the moment.

What someone else wears to church is none of my concern...it simply isn't for me to have an opinion on.

I know of several ladies that always come dressed stunningly. Always a pleasure to see them. (and yes it is modest)

I do remember one incident back over ten years ago when in church. The meeting room was a school auditorium and the podium was on a stage.
 
There were several ladies giving their testimony that morning and several of them were sitting in chairs on the stage before going to the podium to give their testimony...problem was that they were wearing short, above the knee skirts.. And I was sitting right in front of them.  ::whistle:: (their knees were right at eye level)

ahh well....done and over with.

The church has grown and is doing just fine these days...I worked with an object lesson of the pastor a few weeks ago...a friend of his from the past. He ain't gonna do any better.

You shall know other Christians by their fruits of the Spirit.....The bible says nothing of how they are dressed.


Offline chosenone

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #43 on: Mon Feb 15, 2010 - 06:47:25 »
John In my experienmce I have noticed that the more mature a lady is in her faith the less likely she is to dress immodestly. just my observation.

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #43 on: Mon Feb 15, 2010 - 06:47:25 »

Offline JohnDB

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #44 on: Mon Feb 15, 2010 - 07:18:40 »
John In my experienmce I have noticed that the more mature a lady is in her faith the less likely she is to dress immodestly. just my observation.

And that would be your experience only in your area...

the "modest" benchmark is regional in nature...

There are no scriptures that can accurately measure how short or long a skirt should be...what portions of a person's anatomy can show versus what can't be seen in general public.

For example...

You can't tell a guy or girl that their shorts must fit so that they are no higher than six inches above the knee. For a very tall person this is not going to be right....nor for a very short person.

Then you would have issues with those that wear bathing attire to church. When the Church is on the beach in a warm climate....I certainly am not going to tell them that they can't do this.

Then you have certain regions in Europe where the naked form is of no consequence. Topless isn't an issue at their public sun bathing areas...their latest tirade is for people to start actually wearing bottoms to bathing attire in those locations.

Then you have the other end of the spectrum...the muslim Burkh. All women must cover up so much so that they look like a lump of cloth...I did hear a story about a muslim guy who married a muslim woman with a beard...and he was rather upset about it too.  He never knew until after he was married as to what she looked like.

I don't have a problem with sex....
Obviously those worried about other people's modesty do though.

Offline OldDad

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #45 on: Mon Feb 15, 2010 - 09:17:19 »
John In my experienmce I have noticed that the more mature a lady is in her faith the less likely she is to dress immodestly. just my observation.

And that would be your experience only in your area...

the "modest" benchmark is regional in nature...

There are no scriptures that can accurately measure how short or long a skirt should be...what portions of a person's anatomy can show versus what can't be seen in general public.

For example...

You can't tell a guy or girl that their shorts must fit so that they are no higher than six inches above the knee. For a very tall person this is not going to be right....nor for a very short person.

Then you would have issues with those that wear bathing attire to church. When the Church is on the beach in a warm climate....I certainly am not going to tell them that they can't do this.

Then you have certain regions in Europe where the naked form is of no consequence. Topless isn't an issue at their public sun bathing areas...their latest tirade is for people to start actually wearing bottoms to bathing attire in those locations.

Then you have the other end of the spectrum...the muslim Burkh. All women must cover up so much so that they look like a lump of cloth...I did hear a story about a muslim guy who married a muslim woman with a beard...and he was rather upset about it too.  He never knew until after he was married as to what she looked like.

I don't have a problem with sex....
Obviously those worried about other people's modesty do though.

Great point, great post.

Offline chosenone

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #46 on: Mon Feb 15, 2010 - 09:35:51 »
Paul does tell us women to be modest and not to draw attention to oursleves. I think that we are being naive if we dont know when we are doing this or not. Its pretty obvious.
Most women and most men are well aware when this line has been crossed whatever the country that you live in. Usually people dont want to deal with this in church. I am blessed to now have a church where this is rarely an issue and we have 300 people, with many youngsters.

Offline OldDad

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #47 on: Mon Feb 15, 2010 - 09:39:02 »
And Paul ties that instruction directly to the wearing of expensive clothes and jewelry.  So, do we need to check price tags, or is is sufficient to twist it to cover whatever you don't like?

Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #48 on: Mon Feb 15, 2010 - 09:41:28 »
And Paul ties that instruction directly to the wearing of expensive clothes and jewelry.  So, do we need to check price tags, or is is sufficient to twist it to cover whatever you don't like?

I better tell my wife to take off her wedding ring.

Offline Jimbob

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #49 on: Mon Feb 15, 2010 - 09:50:15 »
And Paul ties that instruction directly to the wearing of expensive clothes and jewelry.  So, do we need to check price tags, or is is sufficient to twist it to cover whatever you don't like?
Yep.

Sermon mp3: Keeping Up Appearances

Offline chosenone

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #50 on: Mon Feb 15, 2010 - 09:56:31 »
I find it strange that people will try to avoid this subject and  pretend that is isnt a problem, or that God doesnt care what women wear.
Most women are very aware of what they wear and of what effect it has on men. That is why a lot of them do it after all.
 Women are to be modest. Women arent supposed to do things to draw attention to themselves.
How much simpler can it be?

Offline OldDad

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #51 on: Mon Feb 15, 2010 - 09:58:58 »
I find it strange that you continue to insist scripture about wearing expensive clothing and jewelry is all about clothing you don't like.

Offline chosenone

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #52 on: Mon Feb 15, 2010 - 10:15:38 »
I find it strange that you continue to insist scripture about wearing expensive clothing and jewelry is all about clothing you don't like.

 Immodest clothing isnt clothing that I dont like, its clothing that shows parts of women that makes it hard for others to look away.In the Bible women are told to be modest. Do you think it is modest to show a lot of cleavage and wear very short skirts, see through clothes etc?
Do you think that women who dress like this are doing all they can not to draw attention to themnselves?
Do you think that men should have to close their eyes in church because a women dressed like this comes to sit in front of them?   

Offline OldDad

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #53 on: Mon Feb 15, 2010 - 10:20:18 »
What I think is that you have, from day one of this topic and others like it on this forum, tried to make your personal standard the BIBLICAL standard for every woman.  I have repeatedly asked you to show where the Bible specifically describes what is modest or immodest, and you have repeatedly offered some variation of "I know it when I see it."

Thus you make your preference the universal standard for all women.  

Edited to add:

Quote
Do you think that men should have to close their eyes in church because a women dressed like this comes to sit in front of them?
 

Actually, yes, I think we are responsible to guard our own hearts, and not cop out by making an excuse out of what someone else is doing.

It's called being mature.

Offline Hot Ice

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #54 on: Mon Feb 15, 2010 - 22:56:44 »
If you can put the PK issues aside for the moment.

What someone else wears to church is none of my concern...it simply isn't for me to have an opinion on.

I know of several ladies that always come dressed stunningly. Always a pleasure to see them. (and yes it is modest)

I do remember one incident back over ten years ago when in church. The meeting room was a school auditorium and the podium was on a stage.
 
There were several ladies giving their testimony that morning and several of them were sitting in chairs on the stage before going to the podium to give their testimony...problem was that they were wearing short, above the knee skirts.. And I was sitting right in front of them.  ::whistle:: (their knees were right at eye level)

ahh well....done and over with.

The church has grown and is doing just fine these days...I worked with an object lesson of the pastor a few weeks ago...a friend of his from the past. He ain't gonna do any better.

You shall know other Christians by their fruits of the Spirit.....The bible says nothing of how they are dressed.


I appreciate your view, though I don't agree with you.

One thing I wanted to ask about though.

The Bible says taht others will know we are Christians by the love we have for one another, and also by our good works.  It gives us direction to not cause even one of the "little ones" to stumble, saying that we shouldn't eat meat, drink, etc. if it were to cause our brother (sister to offend). 

Knowing that love is not self-seeking, according to I Corinthians 13, it would seem to me that the Bible actually DID talk about how we are dressed--only we had to dig into the context and apply it before that truth came fully into view.  What do you think of that?

Offline Hot Ice

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #55 on: Mon Feb 15, 2010 - 22:59:10 »
John In my experienmce I have noticed that the more mature a lady is in her faith the less likely she is to dress immodestly. just my observation.

And that would be your experience only in your area...

the "modest" benchmark is regional in nature...

There are no scriptures that can accurately measure how short or long a skirt should be...what portions of a person's anatomy can show versus what can't be seen in general public.

For example...

You can't tell a guy or girl that their shorts must fit so that they are no higher than six inches above the knee. For a very tall person this is not going to be right....nor for a very short person.

Then you would have issues with those that wear bathing attire to church. When the Church is on the beach in a warm climate....I certainly am not going to tell them that they can't do this.

Then you have certain regions in Europe where the naked form is of no consequence. Topless isn't an issue at their public sun bathing areas...their latest tirade is for people to start actually wearing bottoms to bathing attire in those locations.

Then you have the other end of the spectrum...the muslim Burkh. All women must cover up so much so that they look like a lump of cloth...I did hear a story about a muslim guy who married a muslim woman with a beard...and he was rather upset about it too.  He never knew until after he was married as to what she looked like.

I don't have a problem with sex....
Obviously those worried about other people's modesty do though.
I'm afraid that's not just her experience.  I've seen it in many cases, and heard it from women that were growing in their faith (I had never said anything about the issue; they brought it up). 

Notwithstanding, these examples of Europe and Muslim countries completely leave the scriptures, as well.

Offline Hot Ice

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #56 on: Mon Feb 15, 2010 - 23:04:30 »
And Paul ties that instruction directly to the wearing of expensive clothes and jewelry.  So, do we need to check price tags, or is is sufficient to twist it to cover whatever you don't like?
What we need to check is the heart when we are doing whatever it is we are doing.  And we need to teach all others to do the same, according to the scriptures.  The Bible clearly condemns showing off stuff for the sake of showing off stuff, too!  The common argument of taking the "That's their problem" approach runs us right out of Christ-likeness, since we wouldn't be thinking upon their interests, as well as our own (Phillipians 2:4).

Notice that Paul never condemned wearing expensive clothes and jewelry (did you read him as saying such?); that can't be directly translated into an excuse for knowingly providing a stimulus for sexual lust, then transferring all responsibility for the entire situation on the person struggling against the sin.  That will be confronted at the judgment seat, too.

Offline Hot Ice

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #57 on: Mon Feb 15, 2010 - 23:06:42 »
I find it strange that people will try to avoid this subject and  pretend that is isnt a problem, or that God doesnt care what women wear.
Most women are very aware of what they wear and of what effect it has on men. That is why a lot of them do it after all.
 Women are to be modest. Women arent supposed to do things to draw attention to themselves.
How much simpler can it be?
Actually, I've heard more people just avoid altogether the subject of what God thinks of this, altogether.  Then, even worse, I hear them try to replace what God said with what they WANT Him to think.


Offline Hot Ice

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #58 on: Mon Feb 15, 2010 - 23:12:50 »
I find it strange that you continue to insist scripture about wearing expensive clothing and jewelry is all about clothing you don't like.
Oh, I finally see what you are talking about! ::smile::

I seem to be hearing from some that if the scripture ChosenOne is talking about is contextually talking about jewelry, then that somehow means that the Bible does NOT command women to practice modesty regarding sex appeal through their clothing, behavior, etc.  If that is a good understanding, I invite you to check Proverbs 7.  Verse 10 says that the loose woman was wearing the attire of a harlot.  What if that just meant she were wearing the secret color code of the Israeli Harlot Society?  It still provokes those men that see it, setting in motion the sinful nature that is already in place.

What about  the attitude of I Corinthians 8:13 that I mentioned in another post?  The point was not "Is there anything wrong with this?".  The point was "What will I do with the position of influence I have over my brother/sister?"

James 4:17 says that whoever knows to do good, and doesn't do it, sins.

Offline Hot Ice

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #59 on: Mon Feb 15, 2010 - 23:17:49 »
What I think is that you have, from day one of this topic and others like it on this forum, tried to make your personal standard the BIBLICAL standard for every woman.  I have repeatedly asked you to show where the Bible specifically describes what is modest or immodest, and you have repeatedly offered some variation of "I know it when I see it."

Thus you make your preference the universal standard for all women.  

Edited to add:

Quote
Do you think that men should have to close their eyes in church because a women dressed like this comes to sit in front of them?
 

Actually, yes, I think we are responsible to guard our own hearts, and not cop out by making an excuse out of what someone else is doing.

It's called being mature.
I didn't realize this debate went back so far.  Let me interrupt the slugfest for a second:

This answer seems to satisfy a related question, without answering the actual question:
 
"Should women place men in a position to have to ..."  is not the same as

"Should men be expected to be prepared to............in case"

You are RIGHT ON about men guarding their hearts, not copping out, making excuses!  Guarding the heart should not be done on the spot, only when temptation hits (it's TOO LATE then!)  Neither is it right to deride a calling out sinful behavior as "copping out", though.  There is a difference.


Offline Hot Ice

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #60 on: Mon Feb 15, 2010 - 23:23:50 »
Jesus spent a lot of time in Matthew 5 and 6 moving us from looking only at outward appearances and circumstances to deal with spiritual matters, to teaching us that outward circumstances are happening BECAUSE of inward conduct/passions/allegiances, etc.

If we, as Christians, are to build one another up in the faith, if we are to edify one another with our words, if we are to exhort one another, if we are to supply one annother, if we are to in honor prefer one another to ourselves (enough?  I could go on), we can't be selfish with our choices--including how we dress, including how we respond to how someone is dressed.

I can't see that ChosenOne has said anything about how she thinks women SHOULD dress (it can be implied, sure; but call that what it is.  SHE didn't say it).  I read her as concerned about the effect it was having on others.  What if she were (I don't believe this is true) ONLY concerned on the effect it had on her husband, because she felt threatened by some BEAUTIFUL, SEXY vixen of a woman?  It would be selfish on her part, sure.  But it wouldn't translate into "See?  We just shouldn't be concerned about how people dress!  It DOESN'T MATTER!!" 

The Bible indicates otherwise.

Offline chosenone

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #61 on: Tue Feb 16, 2010 - 05:08:11 »
Women have a responsibility not to make it hard for a man to keep their thoughts pure. Most women are well aware that what they wear will affect a man. If they still do it then is that Godly? Women can look nice without dressing immodestly.I have many female friends who look nice and feminine but dont show their cleavage or their thighs or their underwear.
Clothing standards in Pauls day were much more modest than now, and yet we still want to ignore what he says about modesty and not dressing to draw attention to ourselves.
I think its sad that some churches wont tackle this issue.
« Last Edit: Tue Feb 16, 2010 - 05:14:50 by chosenone »

Offline OldDad

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #62 on: Tue Feb 16, 2010 - 07:14:39 »
Ah, the "weaker brother" argument raises it's head...  To be "weak" or "weaker" or prone to stumble is NEVER a good thing in Scripture.  It means someone is an immature, baby-faith believer.  Sure, those who are stronger - more mature in their faith -should use their liberty wisely, but the weaker person needs to grow up.

Soon to come is the posts that say ALL men are drooling wolves and serial lechers who really should let their mothers lead them around blindfolded - cuz otherwise they spend all day every day lusting in their hearts.

Bull.  If your man is as shallow in his faith as your portray him to be, he should wear a blindfold.

The truth is, those folks "tsk-tsking" and clucking their tongues about what other women wear to church twist one scripture and cobble together a shaky coalition of a couple of others because THEY want to control another person's outward appearance.

Reminds me of the men who spied out Paul's liberty.

Offline Hot Ice

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #63 on: Tue Feb 16, 2010 - 17:25:08 »
Ah, the "weaker brother" argument raises it's head...  To be "weak" or "weaker" or prone to stumble is NEVER a good thing in Scripture.  It means someone is an immature, baby-faith believer.  Sure, those who are stronger - more mature in their faith -should use their liberty wisely, but the weaker person needs to grow up.

Soon to come is the posts that say ALL men are drooling wolves and serial lechers who really should let their mothers lead them around blindfolded - cuz otherwise they spend all day every day lusting in their hearts.

Bull.  If your man is as shallow in his faith as your portray him to be, he should wear a blindfold.

The truth is, those folks "tsk-tsking" and clucking their tongues about what other women wear to church twist one scripture and cobble together a shaky coalition of a couple of others because THEY want to control another person's outward appearance.

Reminds me of the men who spied out Paul's liberty.
I don't have a problem with the accusations in this post; i have a problem with the fact that:

1.  They are not accompanied by any substantiation (they CAN'T be);
2.  They are followed by a counter-argument for someone who has never made the initial argument.

If you want to tell me "the truth is,"....fine.   How do you know it to be the truth, so confidently that you present it as a done deal?

Offline Hot Ice

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #64 on: Tue Feb 16, 2010 - 17:33:20 »
Ah, the "weaker brother" argument raises it's head...  To be "weak" or "weaker" or prone to stumble is NEVER a good thing in Scripture.  It means someone is an immature, baby-faith believer.  Sure, those who are stronger - more mature in their faith -should use their liberty wisely, but the weaker person needs to grow up.


No argument here with the logic.  Only with the implication that has been accompanying this thought throughout your posts, up to this point.

There is a suggestion that in the meantime, while the weaker person is growing up that there should be a downplaying of what the "more mature" believers are doing.

There is a suggestion that somebody could be put herself out there as a pressed cleavage-showing, stiletto-clad, split skirt-wearing, hip-swinging, billboard for sensuality--yet be "mature in her faith" --one of the biggest contradictions I can think of.

Offline OldDad

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #65 on: Wed Feb 17, 2010 - 07:17:30 »
Ah, the "weaker brother" argument raises it's head...  To be "weak" or "weaker" or prone to stumble is NEVER a good thing in Scripture.  It means someone is an immature, baby-faith believer.  Sure, those who are stronger - more mature in their faith -should use their liberty wisely, but the weaker person needs to grow up.

Soon to come is the posts that say ALL men are drooling wolves and serial lechers who really should let their mothers lead them around blindfolded - cuz otherwise they spend all day every day lusting in their hearts.

Bull.  If your man is as shallow in his faith as your portray him to be, he should wear a blindfold.

The truth is, those folks "tsk-tsking" and clucking their tongues about what other women wear to church twist one scripture and cobble together a shaky coalition of a couple of others because THEY want to control another person's outward appearance.

Reminds me of the men who spied out Paul's liberty.
I don't have a problem with the accusations in this post; i have a problem with the fact that:

1.  They are not accompanied by any substantiation (they CAN'T be);
2.  They are followed by a counter-argument for someone who has never made the initial argument.

If you want to tell me "the truth is,"....fine.   How do you know it to be the truth, so confidently that you present it as a done deal?

Simple forum history.  Go to "search" at the top of the page, plug in "modesty" and see what pops up.

Offline Cally

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #66 on: Wed Feb 17, 2010 - 08:35:01 »
1 Timothy

    * 2:9 In the same way, that women also adorn themselves in decent clothing, with modesty and propriety; not just with braided hair, gold, pearls, or expensive clothing;


Somebody is going to dissect the translation of this, I guess, but with the wording here "decent clothing, with modesty and propriety" is a standalone statement.

To be very exact, your "guidelines" are as follows:

*They MUST dress in "decent clothing, with modesty and propriety"
*They MAY wear braided hair, gold, pearls, or expensive clothing.

What in the world is being debated here?  ??? The outward adornment is optional, but dressing modestly is not an option, it's a must.
« Last Edit: Wed Feb 17, 2010 - 15:17:25 by Cally »

Offline Cally

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #67 on: Wed Feb 17, 2010 - 08:47:34 »
Oh, and the word also distinctly says not to look down on the weaker brother, and also says that if you embolden the weaker brother to sin, you have sinned and not acted in love.

Just as Paul said, if his eating meat caused someone to stumble, he would not eat meat again. The stronger person's job on Earth is to strengthen the brothers and help them grow up, period.

Ah, the "weaker brother" argument raises it's head...  To be "weak" or "weaker" or prone to stumble is NEVER a good thing in Scripture.  It means someone is an immature, baby-faith believer.  Sure, those who are stronger - more mature in their faith -should use their liberty wisely, but the weaker person needs to grow up.

Soon to come is the posts that say ALL men are drooling wolves and serial lechers who really should let their mothers lead them around blindfolded - cuz otherwise they spend all day every day lusting in their hearts.



Yes, there are many women out there who do this, and it accomplishes nothing regardless--absolutely nothing. Yet the same rule applies: Paul is exceedingly clear that the stronger brother must not look down on the weaker.

But "by his own master he stands or falls. But he will stand, because the Lord is able to make him stand." Those women's disdain is completely irrelevant to me, whether it's true (about men) or not.
« Last Edit: Wed Feb 17, 2010 - 09:10:36 by Cally »

Offline Hot Ice

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #68 on: Wed Feb 17, 2010 - 13:14:07 »
Ah, the "weaker brother" argument raises it's head...  To be "weak" or "weaker" or prone to stumble is NEVER a good thing in Scripture.  It means someone is an immature, baby-faith believer.  Sure, those who are stronger - more mature in their faith -should use their liberty wisely, but the weaker person needs to grow up.

Soon to come is the posts that say ALL men are drooling wolves and serial lechers who really should let their mothers lead them around blindfolded - cuz otherwise they spend all day every day lusting in their hearts.

Bull.  If your man is as shallow in his faith as your portray him to be, he should wear a blindfold.

The truth is, those folks "tsk-tsking" and clucking their tongues about what other women wear to church twist one scripture and cobble together a shaky coalition of a couple of others because THEY want to control another person's outward appearance.

Reminds me of the men who spied out Paul's liberty.
I don't have a problem with the accusations in this post; i have a problem with the fact that:

1.  They are not accompanied by any substantiation (they CAN'T be);
2.  They are followed by a counter-argument for someone who has never made the initial argument.

If you want to tell me "the truth is,"....fine.   How do you know it to be the truth, so confidently that you present it as a done deal?

Simple forum history.  Go to "search" at the top of the page, plug in "modesty" and see what pops up.
Forum history tells me and you/others about what has been posted; it tells nothing that says what is "soon to come" in posts about drooling beasts, etc.  or about what the private motives of people are.  Could you provide a post with evidence that says it's most LIKELY that their motives are what you accuse them of being?  I'll listen.

Offline marie69

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #69 on: Wed Feb 17, 2010 - 15:08:28 »
There is always going to be those that disagree with what someone else does, how they dress, the kind of food they eat, the way the raise their children, etc...

I was taught not to show shoulders, knees or cleavage in church. That was the rules my parents gave me. I still follow them to this day. My best friend who grew up in the same church with me was taught not to show cleavage. Nothing ever mentioned about shoulders and knees. Her parents are devout Christians as is she. She has kept the no cleavage rule with her own children. I have kept the no cleavage, knees, or shoulders rule with my kids.  Both of our kids are church youth leaders. They are teenagers and neither one has come to church naked so far so I think we're doing good. What you believe in your heart to be right is right....for you. So don't go to church dressed in a way you feel is immodest.

"For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that He might be The Lord of both the dead and the living. You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. It is written: "'As surely as I live,' says The Lord, 'every knee will bow before Me; every tongue will confess to God.'"

"So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God. Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another." (Romans 14:1-13)