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Offline Hot Ice

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #70 on: Wed Feb 24, 2010 - 13:52:49 »
Sad that any confrontation with something that God told us to confront is met with efforts to convince the family of God that they are making a mountain out of a molehill, that they are "reading too much into it", that they are "judging others" rather than "judging sin", etc.

Meanwhile, those that struggle with this have condemnation and contempt and abandonment added to the heavy burden that they already bear with this issue.  And by that, I mean not only the men that struggle with the sexual temptation--AND the women that are being consummed by the spirit of mind that is involved in presenting themselves as a tool to be used of the flesh, world, and devil--and STILL are being left empty, due to having chased after fulfillment from something other than Christ, as they grieve the holy Spirit of God.


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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #70 on: Wed Feb 24, 2010 - 13:52:49 »

Offline marie69

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #71 on: Sat Feb 27, 2010 - 23:27:01 »
I didn't mean to add any extra struggles to those who are worried about this issue. I'm sorry if it sounded that way in my post. I truly would never say anything to intentionally hurt anyone's feelings. But I do feel in my heart that if this is a burden to someone, give it to God. He wants us to lay our burdens at His feet. He will take care of them. The thing is, modesty has different meanings to each and every one of us. That was what I meant by the cleavage, knees & shoulders comments. I do understand how someone dressing in a way you feel is inappropriate would make you feel uncomfortable in a church setting. But God loves that person as much as he loves you. I don't think He looks at the two of you sitting in church and says "I love you more because you dress better."

If someone comes to church in a pair of cut off daisy duke shorts and a low cut shirt with half their busom hanging out, I'm thinking I would probably say something. But if they are wearing their best dress and have made an attempt to look their very best for church, then I would just be thankful that they are there.

Offline rrawd

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #72 on: Wed Mar 03, 2010 - 17:51:15 »
I would like to know how you pastors and church leaders woud deal with immodesty in you church. By this I mean those who show off cleavage, most of their legs, wear very tight and clingy clothes or see thorugh clothes etc etc.
Our pastors way of dealing it is to do nothing, so nothing ever changes.
.


I am sorry to say I agree with your pastor. If they are making a change for Christ they make the change, if they make the change because a pastor tells em stop dressing like that in my church then they havent really changed they were forced to change.

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #72 on: Wed Mar 03, 2010 - 17:51:15 »

debra

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #73 on: Wed Mar 03, 2010 - 23:03:12 »
I am new here and searching for God. I felt I was led to a specific church.  I had never gone to church before and did not know what was acceptable to wear. I dress modestly. but I worried that I would be expected to dress up, and I am on disability and have no money to buy dresses and sunday best.

I attended this church once. Everyone seemed to be dressed causally, slacks, jeans, but modest. it seems that the old days of dressing up is no more, and I wore slacks and a long sleeve shirt, very modest. i wore sneakers because they are the only pair of shows i own.  Is this okay?


Offline poohgirl

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #74 on: Thu Mar 04, 2010 - 13:19:25 »
I am new here and searching for God. I felt I was led to a specific church.  I had never gone to church before and did not know what was acceptable to wear. I dress modestly. but I worried that I would be expected to dress up, and I am on disability and have no money to buy dresses and sunday best.

I attended this church once. Everyone seemed to be dressed causally, slacks, jeans, but modest. it seems that the old days of dressing up is no more, and I wore slacks and a long sleeve shirt, very modest. i wore sneakers because they are the only pair of shows i own.  Is this okay?


Hello Debra, I think it sounds like what you wore to church was just fine and modest.  You don't have to dress up and wear expensive clothes to church that you can't afford to buy.

 I hope you find a good church to attend that you feel at home in and connect with others.

God Bless You!  ::smile::

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #74 on: Thu Mar 04, 2010 - 13:19:25 »



Offline Hot Ice

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #75 on: Thu Mar 04, 2010 - 17:08:22 »
I am new here and searching for God. I felt I was led to a specific church.  I had never gone to church before and did not know what was acceptable to wear. I dress modestly. but I worried that I would be expected to dress up, and I am on disability and have no money to buy dresses and sunday best.

I attended this church once. Everyone seemed to be dressed causally, slacks, jeans, but modest. it seems that the old days of dressing up is no more, and I wore slacks and a long sleeve shirt, very modest. i wore sneakers because they are the only pair of shows i own.  Is this okay?


Hi Debra--and WELCOME!

What you wore was totally O.K., since it wasn't  (from what you posted ) causing anyone to be ddistracted from the Lord, nor the teaching of God's Word. 

According to the scriptures, the reason we are to "tone" anything down is for the sake of others.  One example is in I Corinthians 8:  There were some that were really troubled in their conscience, because some meat that had been offered to false gods (idols) was being served.  Paul didn't focus on whether or not the gods were real.  And even though he did mention that there was "nothing wrong with it" according to the scripture, he did focus on what the action did to younger, weaker (in the faith) believers!  Look at verses 12 and 13:

12 "But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.

13  "Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend. "

Just the fact that you were concerned about whether or not this was O.K. is a great sign!  If you can keep that concern on what effect you are having on the faith of others (not that you are responsible for their decisions, by any means!), then you are in a great place.

God bless you.

Offline Hot Ice

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #76 on: Thu Mar 04, 2010 - 17:11:53 »
I would like to know how you pastors and church leaders woud deal with immodesty in you church. By this I mean those who show off cleavage, most of their legs, wear very tight and clingy clothes or see thorugh clothes etc etc.
Our pastors way of dealing it is to do nothing, so nothing ever changes.
.


I am sorry to say I agree with your pastor. If they are making a change for Christ they make the change, if they make the change because a pastor tells em stop dressing like that in my church then they havent really changed they were forced to change.
While I see your point, we shouldn't assume that there is only the choice of having the pastor walk up and tell someone what they can/cannot wear--or do absolutely nothing, ever, while waiting for something to happen on it's own.

There is also the point that Chosenone was talking about believers that have known better for quite some time, and just choose to keep on keeping on.  The Word tells us to restore those overtaken in a fault (Galatians 6:1), and in other places, actually tells us to warn, and even rebuke other believers.  There wouldn't be the element of force at work there, as (and I agree with you) that would not at all be right to do).

debra

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #77 on: Fri Mar 05, 2010 - 22:46:35 »
Thanks for the welcome.  ::smile::

As I continue my search for a church I feel is right for me, I have seen that many churches have websites and address this issue.  I find it very helpful to read on a church site what is considered appropriate to wear, and it saves anyone from having to tell a person they are immodest, and it saves a person who has never gone to church, and may dress immodestly, from being made to feel unwelcome.

 

Offline janine

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #78 on: Sat Mar 06, 2010 - 01:15:58 »
Of course women (and men) should "dress modestly" "in church".

The trouble comes when you try to set up specifics you want other people to follow.

What is modesty to you?

Why is "in church" any different from "at the Mall" or "while grocery shopping"?  God is right there between you and the potato bin, too, you know, you didn't leave Him at the church building.

If some woman had a knockout figure, the epitome of whatever is the ideal womanly figure where and when you live, no amount of covering up is going to hide that from anyone 'cept a blind man.  Unless perhaps you hobble her in a burkha.

The matter can be approached and should be. 

My husband has handled it at different times when it has been his turn to speak or preach or teach, by mentioning that he feels badly when he passes a lady while passing out Communion bread, for example, and can see down her cleavage.  He cannot avert his eyes, unless he wants to end up mishandling the bread tray or dumping the "fruit of the vine" down said cleavage.

He has mentioned that if a skirt is short enough and tight enough that the lady needs to constantly be fiddling with it, pulling it down, adjusting with it, then she should not wear it.  Not just "at church", either.

He's mentioned that sort of thing from the point of view of being a father with a daughter, appealing to the other fathers present to exercise some leadership in their daughters' (and wives') dress decisions.  Only the man in a house is in a position to remind the women there "how men think", how men tend to be visually stimulated, etc.

See, it's not that the subject is somehow taboo and never should be addressed -- it's just that you can't impose specific dress code rules on a free people and have it do what you're trying to accomplish.

If you somehow mandate a certain skirt length or sleeve length or heel or whatever, along come some lady who adheres perfectly to The Dress Code, but who still is amazingly provocative just because she's got beautiful hair, or an angelic singing voice,  or a stunningly gorgeous complexion, or a figure that will be obvious even in a potato sack.

See what I mean? Sure, address the topic, often as you can.  It's a great topic and can provoke a lot of fruitful study if people are willing.  But you'll fall into a pit the moment you start legislating the stuff.

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #78 on: Sat Mar 06, 2010 - 01:15:58 »

Offline Hot Ice

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #79 on: Sat Mar 06, 2010 - 04:31:44 »
I DO see what you mean, Janine.  I look at what the scriptures say, and came to the conclusion that we are to think about what modesty means to the other person, not just ourselves.  Philippians 2 tells us about that; I Corinthians tells us to not use our liberty as a cloak for unrighteousness, and more.

A man that is lusting after a modestly-dressed woman cannot claim immodestly.  I've never understood the burka argument for that, due to that point.  The fact that some man lusted doesn't (by itself) indicate immodesty:  a manner of dressing that invites/incites the lust that is would not be provoked with another manner of dress would.

Which moves the conversationfrom being a legalistic one (which you were wise to caution against) to being one of a love relationship with God.  "Do I love God enough to watch out for this other person that He sent His Son to die for?"  "Is the way I'm dressing say to God that I love and revere Him?".  The answer should goto the Holy Spirit.  You disagree?

Offline JohnDB

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #80 on: Sat Mar 06, 2010 - 05:41:45 »
Janine,
What in effect you are saying is that sometimes your husband has an issue with other people's modesty level.

and it is all their fault.


Offline janine

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #81 on: Sat Mar 06, 2010 - 07:40:47 »
<< *snerk* >>

JohnDB, you nut.

I think y'all are getting what I am so clumsily trying to say.

A group of people functioning together as a local body of The Church should be able to handle stuff like this in mutual love and respect without too much turmoil.  We humans don't always manage that, and not just on this one topic.

Something that always comes to mind for me in a discussion like this is the back of a woman's neck.

No, seriously.

Whether because of centuries-old traditions about who could be allowed to see the back of her neck -- or whether because of only 100-year-old or 75-year-old artistic representations in popular sensual/erotic art -- I don't know why --

But I've read that the exposed back of a woman's neck was (is?) considered this great big alluring part of her body in Japanese culture.

Now, that's not necessarily anything a modern young Japanese would even know about, with the "modernization" or Westernization of their culture, women being more independent, etc.  But I think there was a time not so long ago, when if you as a man were gonna possess a very saucy, sensual, even erotic girlie calendar of Japanese beauties -- well, the penultimate picture, the piece-de-resistance of the calendar, would've been one of a gracefully posed lady, perfectly modestly dressed, but turned away from the camera so that the vulnerable-looking neckline was exposed between her modestly "up" hair and her modestly-collared dress.  Not a thing showing that would worry anyone I know, nothing that would bother the most proper prim person I've met... but supposedly this great big sweaty bug-eyed deal to the male Japanese admirer.

That all may be a crock.  If true, it may be such a thing of the past that the Japanese who even know about it see it the way you and I would see Victorian English morals and customs.  But I have read references to it occasionally all my life; it sounds true.

The tale illustrates a good point, anyway.

Take also the varying values of what it takes to make a beautiful woman in, oh, maybe Equatorial Africa, not many years ago (and likely still true in some places).  If you were a Great Big Beautiful Woman, with well-oiled skin and hair,  it attested to the wealth and power of your family, your husband or father or whatever power your people saw as a woman's wealth.  And even small Western boys 75 years ago knew there were cultures "over there" in which an exposed breast was of no more concern than an exposed elbow.  Thanks to National Geographic, anyway.  ::whistle::

So the loveliest ladies of all, fit to take a man's breath away, would in the one place have been 100% covered up head-to-toe in a voluminous flashy expensive silk kimono, showing very little of what her body might look like -- the outfit part of her wealth, maybe worth thousands of modern dollars -- but oh, that three-inch gap between the back of her collar and the neckline of her hair!  My goodness!

And in the other place the most gorgeous woman, so stunning as to make a man start counting his cows to see if he could possibly afford the bride-price, would have been a very well-rounded lady, fat by modern Western standards (certainly by Hollywood and Madison Avenue standards), shiny with a healthy glow of oils on her skin -- in some countries with her hair dressed in mud or tallow or whatever, in other countries with her head shaved bald 'cause only warriors wear long hair -- standing there bare-breasted because that was the norm among all her whole culture, not a provocative thing at all in itself.

Times change.  Cultures mingle and clash.

When some woman wears not-enough-fabric in her dress, "to church", either she's an absolute witch hoping to make all the men sin -- and I am sure such exist - or more likely, in "her culture", the way she was raised and taught, if she does know her appearance is provocative,  she's been raised to think that's the way a woman cherishes and frameworks whatever beauty God gave her.

Don't think that because someone looks somewhat like you, same ethnic background even, and because she had opportunities for the same basic education you started out with, and because she and her parents and her great-grandpa had the same chances as you, in your free society, to "go to church" -- Don't make the mistake of thinking her culture and your culture are the same.

Hers is not the same as ours.  Her upbringing and parents and peers are not, apparently, just like ours, or we (generic "we") would not be here pondering this issue, all disturbed with that scandalous level of dress at that church building.

Accommodating to another culture is not a bad thing.  Jesus sure did it with the "woman at the well", and managed it without sin, too.  And He managed it without drowning the sub-tropical "natives" in full-length wool dresses with 43 petticoats, and without forcing a barefoot people to wear cobbled boots -- as "our" Western missionaries have done in the past in various places.

Forgive the long tirade.  Hope it's readable.

Offline OldDad

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #82 on: Sat Mar 06, 2010 - 09:45:09 »
Here's how we handle it - we have no dress code.  We don't "suggest" a mode or style of dress.  People are free to dress any way they want to.  Then we trust the work of the Spirit in them as they grow and mature to move them to make the best possible choices in any given situation.

Modesty is a biblical principle, but one without specifics because God allowed for changing cultures in future years.  Any move toward specifics ("This dress style is modest - this style is not") is a move AWAY from biblical principles.

Offline janine

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #83 on: Sat Mar 06, 2010 - 10:12:14 »
There's nothing wrong with "This dress style is thought of as immodest in this time and place".  That would be more applicable, say, when you're telling a Western Christian missionary lady who is going to serve in a country where women don't wear pants, or where women keep their heads covered -- where the man on the street will figure a woman is available and encouraging advances if you can see her bare hair or her legs outlined in pants.

Still, as soon as you build a specific dress code for the local church in the U.S., you've defeated your purpose.

Offline OldDad

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #84 on: Sat Mar 06, 2010 - 10:38:45 »
There's nothing wrong with "This dress style is thought of as immodest in this time and place".  That would be more applicable, say, when you're telling a Western Christian missionary lady who is going to serve in a country where women don't wear pants, or where women keep their heads covered -- where the man on the street will figure a woman is available and encouraging advances if you can see her bare hair or her legs outlined in pants.

Still, as soon as you build a specific dress code for the local church in the U.S., you've defeated your purpose.

Totally agree with contextualization in cross culture settings - but that's not trying to make the Bible set a specific standard that is totally not addressed in Scripture.  It's just recognition of cultural differences.

Many churches handle modesty with religious legalism which says, "You can't please God until you please me."

Offline JohnDB

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #85 on: Sat Mar 06, 2010 - 17:08:23 »
Janine,
Your saying that I am a nut like it is a bad thing or something... rofl


However...

What I think you are saying is "When in Rome...do as the Romans".

IOW...when I am up north in Canada or something...less skin should show of my body than when on a grassy sun bathing beach in Europe. (They have been trying unsuccessfully for years to get the women and men to actually wear a bikini bottom/speedo as a new level of modesty)

But Paul also says, "I am all things to all people".

Meaning that I have to be ready to be accustomed to some very strange and different modesty levels whatever culture I am in....especially when I arrive as a  "Newbie" in their culture.

And that is the point in love that I would make with any woman or guy that came to church immodestly dressed. (and yes, guys can be guilty of the same...when no one else wears a suit....I can't wear any of mine even though in Church I am much more comfortable in one)

I can't demand that the Canadians "Loosen up" their modesty levels or insist that the Europeans get some. It isn't appropriate.

I know your husband means well...but he does have that as an issue as I was saying before. And he needs to somehow get a grip on it and somehow do better. What the exact answer for him is...I haven't the foggiest clue.

You and I both know only too well that Ministers aren't perfect...and I ain't faulting him for his issue. We all have our issues. (mine causing me many problems at the moment) But as a minister he somehow needs to overcome this problem. Maybe a trip to the southern beaches would help...

Offline Hot Ice

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #86 on: Sat Mar 06, 2010 - 20:24:49 »
What's happening today is that the message is being sent loud and clear:  In the name of not imposing a blanket legalistic dress code on the church, we will aid the forces of hell.

Any mention of helping the men that struggle with the attempts of the world, flesh, and devil to misuse and abuse their visually-stimulated sex drive will be met with teh accusation that they want all the women to wear burkas, and have no rights.

It will be dealt with at the throne, sure; but it doesen't seem wise to just make the excuse to "let it go" and take whatever course it takes, as more easily-offended members leave to find a place that will express care for them, as well--not just the women that want to do whatever they want with their bodies and sex appeal.  Some of those men that are remaining will more easily fall into sin, while those that could have helped choose to instead invest the time and energy into defending against arguments that have not been presented.

I've been one of those men.  I've left churches that stopped their ears, when I cried out for help with that temptation.  I've left Bible studies that brought up these scenarios, presenting them as though I had made the arguments that they are tearing down with half-hour, full-volume rebuttals and rebukes.  I've avoided fellowships that I knew were going to show videos on their big screen presentations during morning service that featured girls wearing their daisy dukes and spaghetti-strap tops that had buttons that were about to pop off from gripping their cleavage, as they jumped up and down. 

The message was that the women were important enough to be extended grace, but that the men were not important enough to be extended compassion, protection, instruction, deference, etc.  We will all answer for what we did with that.

Offline JohnDB

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #87 on: Sat Mar 06, 2010 - 21:39:05 »
What's happening today is that the message is being sent loud and clear:  In the name of not imposing a blanket legalistic dress code on the church, we will aid the forces of hell.

Any mention of helping the men that struggle with the attempts of the world, flesh, and devil to misuse and abuse their visually-stimulated sex drive will be met with teh accusation that they want all the women to wear burkas, and have no rights.

It will be dealt with at the throne, sure; but it doesen't seem wise to just make the excuse to "let it go" and take whatever course it takes, as more easily-offended members leave to find a place that will express care for them, as well--not just the women that want to do whatever they want with their bodies and sex appeal.  Some of those men that are remaining will more easily fall into sin, while those that could have helped choose to instead invest the time and energy into defending against arguments that have not been presented.

I've been one of those men.  I've left churches that stopped their ears, when I cried out for help with that temptation.  I've left Bible studies that brought up these scenarios, presenting them as though I had made the arguments that they are tearing down with half-hour, full-volume rebuttals and rebukes.  I've avoided fellowships that I knew were going to show videos on their big screen presentations during morning service that featured girls wearing their daisy dukes and spaghetti-strap tops that had buttons that were about to pop off from gripping their cleavage, as they jumped up and down.  

The message was that the women were important enough to be extended grace, but that the men were not important enough to be extended compassion, protection, instruction, deference, etc.  We will all answer for what we did with that.

What?

We already have to bear the cost and price of your sins...
(there are many examples of this in scripture)

But you expect the rest of the world to pay the price for your temptations as well?

gimme a break
« Last Edit: Sun Mar 07, 2010 - 07:58:35 by OldDad »

son of God

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #88 on: Sun Mar 07, 2010 - 09:18:51 »
What's happening today is that the message is being sent loud and clear:  In the name of not imposing a blanket legalistic dress code on the church, we will aid the forces of hell.

Any mention of helping the men that struggle with the attempts of the world, flesh, and devil to misuse and abuse their visually-stimulated sex drive will be met with teh accusation that they want all the women to wear burkas, and have no rights.

It will be dealt with at the throne, sure; but it doesen't seem wise to just make the excuse to "let it go" and take whatever course it takes, as more easily-offended members leave to find a place that will express care for them, as well--not just the women that want to do whatever they want with their bodies and sex appeal.  Some of those men that are remaining will more easily fall into sin, while those that could have helped choose to instead invest the time and energy into defending against arguments that have not been presented.

I've been one of those men.  I've left churches that stopped their ears, when I cried out for help with that temptation.  I've left Bible studies that brought up these scenarios, presenting them as though I had made the arguments that they are tearing down with half-hour, full-volume rebuttals and rebukes.  I've avoided fellowships that I knew were going to show videos on their big screen presentations during morning service that featured girls wearing their daisy dukes and spaghetti-strap tops that had buttons that were about to pop off from gripping their cleavage, as they jumped up and down. 

The message was that the women were important enough to be extended grace, but that the men were not important enough to be extended compassion, protection, instruction, deference, etc.  We will all answer for what we did with that.

You are correct by the Word, Hot Ice.

And yes, the body is bearing the sins of many who are adulterers.  Look at the statistics and the fruit that everyone, yes, even the damned most readily see.  Yet many in the flock insist that these things are fine, or at the very least, are not sin.



Holiness.

Repentance.

Those two things seem to be little heard and little understood and little lived among many believers.  The proof is in the pudding.

Offline dallasapple

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #89 on: Sun Mar 07, 2010 - 10:58:05 »
I dont understand what the "practictal' benefit of not being exposed to woman who you considrer immodestly dressed only in church woud be?

How would that keep you from stumbling?Unless the only place you ever go where women are is church.

Love

Dallas

Offline dallasapple

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #90 on: Sun Mar 07, 2010 - 11:13:51 »
There's nothing wrong with "This dress style is thought of as immodest in this time and place".  That would be more applicable, say, when you're telling a Western Christian missionary lady who is going to serve in a country where women don't wear pants, or where women keep their heads covered -- where the man on the street will figure a woman is available and encouraging advances if you can see her bare hair or her legs outlined in pants.

Still, as soon as you build a specific dress code for the local church in the U.S., you've defeated your purpose.

Totally agree with contextualization in cross culture settings - but that's not trying to make the Bible set a specific standard that is totally not addressed in Scripture.  It's just recognition of cultural differences.

Many churches handle modesty with religious legalism which says, "You can't please God until you please me."

I agree..and it would never end in the case of being modest to not not tempt.And its highly unfair..IMHO that this instruction is on women to not tempt the man.I dont care what anybody says but women are tempted too..and YES visually.. women  for instance (look it up) are fast approaching men as to things such as porn use.(no not romance novels but PICTURES and movies).

Where would it end? If more women started to ADMIT they can be tempted to lust even by things such as the fragrance of  mans cologne? And by the way..Why WOULD a man deliberately wear cologne?What because the other guys like to smell it?

Love

Dallas

Offline dallasapple

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #91 on: Sun Mar 07, 2010 - 11:42:02 »
Also not to go on and on but along what Janine was saying its can be a matter of what each man considers beautiful and body type etc...

Also this whole "sex appeal" thing isnt as ovbvious as some might try and say.(again along what Janine is saying)..

Some women are going to have much more sex appeal in what would be considered by most "modestly dressed" than she would if she had less on.

This temptation thing could vary woman to woman in the same "dress" for one particualr man.

If my grandmother who is 96 is wearing a pair of daisy dukes with stilletto heals on and a low cut top with her midriff showing in church  I doubt many men would be hollering about how she was tempting them to lust ..I think they woud be more worried that she might fall and break her hip.Or that she might be cold..

Love

Dallas

Offline Hot Ice

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #92 on: Mon Mar 08, 2010 - 16:57:03 »
Another thing to watch out for is that Jesus told us very clearly about causing others to stumble:

Matthew 18:3-11 Talks about all of us becoming like little children after being converted, so that we may enter heaven.   He then goes on to talk about how seriously He takes it when anyone causes any of these little children to "offend"

When Paul mentioned "offending" another brother in I Corinthians 8, the point was the influence we have on another.  Both cases used a derivative of the same word:

skandalon

1) the movable stick or trigger of a trap, a trap stick
a) a trap, snare
b) any impediment placed in the way and causing one to stumble or fall, (a stumbling block, occasion of stumbling) i.e. a rock which is a cause of stumbling
c) fig. applied to Jesus Christ, whose person and career were so contrary to the expectations of the Jews concerning the Messiah, that they rejected him and by their obstinacy made shipwreck of their salvation
2) any person or thing by which one is (entrapped) drawn into error or sin


skandalizō
1) to put a stumbling block or impediment in the way, upon which another may trip and fall, metaph. to offend
a) to entice to sin
b) to cause a person to begin to distrust and desert one whom he ought to trust and obey
1) to cause to fall away
2) to be offended in one, i.e. to see in another what I disapprove of and what hinders me from acknowledging his authority
3) to cause one to judge unfavourably or unjustly of another
c) since one who stumbles or whose foot gets entangled feels annoyed
1) to cause one displeasure at a thing
2) to make indignant
3) to be displeased, indignant


Anything you or I do that causes "offense", whether through self-righteous , sarcastic, demanding spirits, or self-seeking behavior of any type that provides enticement for another to sin (that would include doing something knowing that it "grosses another out" during church, thereby distracting him/her from the worshipo of our Lord) is simply going to answer for it.

It doesn't fit who we are in Christ to NOT watch out for all that we can for the benefit of others.  Did Jesus not do that?

Offline JohnDB

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #93 on: Tue Mar 09, 2010 - 05:55:44 »
Jesus didn't do that in the manner you are describing. Not at all

Offline Hot Ice

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #94 on: Tue Mar 09, 2010 - 16:53:31 »
Jesus didn't do that in the manner you are describing. Not at all
If you eman that Jesus didn't watch out for other people in the manner that I'm describing, maybe you could elaborate, as I have no idea what you mean........

Offline JohnDB

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #95 on: Tue Mar 09, 2010 - 19:25:44 »
Don't derail the thread into some kind of theological debate.

It is again't the rules...

and you are not supposed to bait someone into breaking the rules either.

So please refrain..


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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #96 on: Tue Mar 09, 2010 - 20:48:37 »
Don't derail the thread into some kind of theological debate.

It is again't the rules...

and you are not supposed to bait someone into breaking the rules either.

So please refrain..



Likewise, so please explain!  ::smile::

Offline Hot Ice

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #97 on: Wed Mar 10, 2010 - 17:08:01 »
I welcome anybody anywhere on this forum to report me immediately if at any point, I've broken ANY rule here.  But if you're not going to report me, then my question will stand.  I again ask you to come out of obscurity with your comment.

I wrote, at the end of my last post, "It doesn't fit who we are in Christ to NOT watch out for all that we can for the benefit of others.  Did Jesus not do that?"

You, in response, wrote, "Jesus didn't do that in the manner you are describing. Not at all."

That is vague, doesn't say a thing to me about what you believe Jesus did.  Can you show me in the scripture where you are seeing that I'm wrong?

Offline JohnDB

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #98 on: Fri Mar 12, 2010 - 06:23:08 »
Sorry, but your just not worth the trouble.

Offline Hot Ice

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #99 on: Fri Mar 12, 2010 - 18:16:10 »
I hate to hear that I'm of such little worth to you--but that is what it is.  I was hoping to understand you, and to be understood by you, in turn.

This whole subject, like others in which we are  dealing with whether or not we will obey God's command regarding how to treat others, certainly reminds me of how God ascribed worth to all of us by  guarding us in ways that we didin't even deserve, going through what He didn't deserve.

It should be taught in church, for sure--both in principle, and in specific application (such as guarding our brothers and sisters around us, by watching our decisions that we make out of our freedom); and it should be demonstrated, as well. 

Not to mention, the unbelieving world is watching to see if we just start dressing "weirdly" for the sake of being weird--or if we truly dress as though we are trying to LOVE our Father back, by what we wear.

Offline JohnDB

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #100 on: Fri Mar 12, 2010 - 19:43:32 »
I hate to hear that I'm of such little worth to you--but that is what it is.  I was hoping to understand you, and to be understood by you, in turn.

This whole subject, like others in which we are  dealing with whether or not we will obey God's command regarding how to treat others, certainly reminds me of how God ascribed worth to all of us by  guarding us in ways that we didin't even deserve, going through what He didn't deserve.

It should be taught in church, for sure--both in principle, and in specific application (such as guarding our brothers and sisters around us, by watching our decisions that we make out of our freedom); and it should be demonstrated, as well. 

Not to mention, the unbelieving world is watching to see if we just start dressing "weirdly" for the sake of being weird--or if we truly dress as though we are trying to LOVE our Father back, by what we wear.

I am not going to be able to make you see and understand that you aren't the sole arbiter (you may have some collaborators with you all believing the same thing) of what is morally correct to wear at church. You are a legalist...I ain't.

What do I have in common with you?
My Jesus is very different...He may be pure and Holy Holy Holy but He is anything but a legalist.


Offline Hot Ice

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #101 on: Fri Mar 12, 2010 - 22:05:46 »
I didn't realize I was a legalist, or that I serve a different Jesus-- a legalistic Jesus.

Neither did I realize that I was ever conveying that I am the sole arbitor of what is morally correct to wear to church, and that I need to be "made to understand" that I'm not.  If you've seen me write that, copy it, and I'll deal with it (apologize, correct it)........


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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #102 on: Sat May 01, 2010 - 04:15:19 »
Chosenone,
"I am rather fed up with it, even to the point of wanting to leave now.God has been leading me to be  modest in dress and even before I was a Christian I dressed quite modestly anyway, ie not showing cleavage or wearing very short skirts etc."

I agree with you 100%.  That is exactly where I am at.  I appreciate that as a woman you see the immodesty in the church.  Like yourself and as a deacon in my "conservative" Baptist church, I have voiced my disdain for the constant show of cleavage by "leaders" in the church.  They agree with me that there is a problem, but refuse to do anything about it.

I told the senior Pastor that my wife and teenage daughthers were offnded by the lack of modesty and in your face flaunting of body parts and his respose, "I'd rather err on the side of liberty than legalism."  Everyone cries legalism when they know they are wrong about a given topic and don't want to do anything about it.  By the way, his teenage daughters are among the worst offenders.

One of the other Pastors said that we have to" be careful not to offend anyone."  If that's the case, then we shouldn't preach about anything at all!

I feel the message about modesty needs to come from the pulpit, not secretly and privately.  The entire congregation needs to know what God expects from us. They need to know that the Pastors feel it is wrong to be immodest, not just a few "crazy" people in the church.  I have been voicing my opinion and disgust about the lack of simple reverence for God and the brothers in the church for years on this topic to no avail.  Young and old have no shame about baring more than just cleavage.  They are simply "out there" for all to behold.  

Shame on Pastors which think this is Christian "Liberty!"

Jorge

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #103 on: Sat May 01, 2010 - 04:47:02 »
JohnDB,

Said:
"I don't have a problem with sex....
Obviously those worried about other people's modesty do though." 
 
John, you are so out of line.  Those of us who are concerned about modesty in God's house have a problem with the simple lack of respect for God and others and the lack of concern about causing others to stumble!

You seem to enjoy seeing the naked parade in church.
 
 

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Re: immodesty in church
« Reply #104 on: Sat May 01, 2010 - 07:35:44 »
JohnDB,

Said:
"I don't have a problem with sex....
Obviously those worried about other people's modesty do though." 
 
John, you are so out of line.  Those of us who are concerned about modesty in God's house have a problem with the simple lack of respect for God and others and the lack of concern about causing others to stumble!

You seem to enjoy seeing the naked parade in church.
 
 



 Totally agree.That comment was rude and way out of line.Those who dont like to see people dressed immodestly care about those who do that and also those who are trying not to look. Its selfish and disobedient.

 

     
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