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Jesus not allowed to be Head.
« on: Wed Oct 12, 2011 - 01:13:26 »
1COR.12 and 14 is our guide line for a gathering.  Please read those chapters. I know of no church that operates by the book. If you can find at least one other believer that sees this problem, fellowship with them. Where 2 or 3 are gathered He is in their midst. He wants to be the Head. He is not allowed to be so in the organized church.

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Jesus not allowed to be Head.
« on: Wed Oct 12, 2011 - 01:13:26 »

Lively Stone

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Re: Jesus not allowed to be Head.
« Reply #1 on: Wed Oct 12, 2011 - 01:16:48 »
1COR.12 and 14 is our guide line for a gathering.  Please read those chapters. I know of no church that operates by the book. If you can find at least one other believer that sees this problem, fellowship with them. Where 2 or 3 are gathered He is in their midst. He wants to be the Head. He is not allowed to be so in the organized church.

The church I belong to operates according to the Book, and I am confident in saying it is not alone. There are MANY who do.

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Re: Jesus not allowed to be Head.
« Reply #2 on: Wed Oct 12, 2011 - 13:18:54 »
Lively Stone thanks. I am tickled to here that. In omaha we are still waiting. Pray for us. God is done with business as usual.

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« Reply #2 on: Wed Oct 12, 2011 - 13:18:54 »

Lively Stone

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Re: Jesus not allowed to be Head.
« Reply #3 on: Wed Oct 12, 2011 - 13:23:14 »
Lively Stone thanks. I am tickled to here that. In omaha we are still waiting. Pray for us. God is done with business as usual.

I will indeed pray for you that you will have what you seek from God! Right now He is busy working in the hearts of those who will lead you and those who will stand with you.

He is more than thrilled to pour out His Spirit upon all who desire Him and His fullness! He works best in hearts that are obedient to His word and are able and willing to seek out the lost for Him. Often, when God sees that He can trust a people to love and nurture the lost and the new in faith, He will actually start sending people into the church right from the street! It is amazing.

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Re: Jesus not allowed to be Head.
« Reply #4 on: Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 23:59:12 »
With all due respect, men leading us has been the problem. Men are still 'leading' in place of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit will lead each one of us as we reach maturity.

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Re: Jesus not allowed to be Head.
« Reply #4 on: Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 23:59:12 »



Lively Stone

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Re: Jesus not allowed to be Head.
« Reply #5 on: Sat Oct 15, 2011 - 01:47:25 »
With all due respect, men leading us has been the problem. Men are still 'leading' in place of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit will lead each one of us as we reach maturity.


Yes He does that, and He chooses to do that through the help of leadership that He places in our lives. That is why He gifts people with these abilities.
« Last Edit: Sat Oct 15, 2011 - 12:00:22 by Lively Stone »

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Re: Jesus not allowed to be Head.
« Reply #6 on: Sat Oct 15, 2011 - 09:47:48 »
True indeed but the devil is in the details as Paul warned would happen. False doctrine, doctrines of men and of devils, traditions of men that 'make void the word of God' are a real problem right now.  If you read what a real gathering of saints is to look like, go to 1COR.12 and 14. Elders were to teach indeed the younger but then when they grew to maturity, the teachers were to get out of the way allowing all to bring something to the table. The way it has been distorted now for about 1700 years is that the 'body parts' have been as students that never graduate.
  So back to your original premise, we need men to lead is true. But right now because of all of the falsehood being promulgated, true leadership is missing...as Paul had warned. This can be resolved by returning to the N.T. for our guideline which is a heavy battle in itself.Traditions are a real hard thing to break.

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Re: Jesus not allowed to be Head.
« Reply #7 on: Sat Oct 15, 2011 - 13:25:03 »
True indeed but the devil is in the details as Paul warned would happen. False doctrine, doctrines of men and of devils, traditions of men that 'make void the word of God' are a real problem right now.  If you read what a real gathering of saints is to look like, go to 1COR.12 and 14. Elders were to teach indeed the younger but then when they grew to maturity, the teachers were to get out of the way allowing all to bring something to the table. The way it has been distorted now for about 1700 years is that the 'body parts' have been as students that never graduate.
  So back to your original premise, we need men to lead is true. But right now because of all of the falsehood being promulgated, true leadership is missing...as Paul had warned. This can be resolved by returning to the N.T. for our guideline which is a heavy battle in itself.Traditions are a real hard thing to break.

When I want to see what a real gathering of saints looks like, I go to church, or I stay home here Monday night where we have a cell group meet---women. Powerfully anointed women of God who are spiritual leaders also. Just like in the NT.

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Re: Jesus not allowed to be Head.
« Reply #8 on: Sat Oct 15, 2011 - 14:12:06 »
Did you re-read 1COR.12 and 14?

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« Reply #8 on: Sat Oct 15, 2011 - 14:12:06 »

Lively Stone

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Re: Jesus not allowed to be Head.
« Reply #9 on: Sat Oct 15, 2011 - 15:36:07 »
Did you re-read 1COR.12 and 14?

It isn't necessary. I have read it many times.

Jesus is the head of our church. In fact our pastor made the announcement about 10 years ago that we have a new pastor---Jesus.

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Re: Jesus not allowed to be Head.
« Reply #10 on: Sat Oct 15, 2011 - 15:49:34 »
Ephesians speaks of 'pastors' plural. Pastors: shepherds: poimen. The pastors, plural, are to watch over the newbee sheep. Watch for wolves and teach and train then get the heck out of the way so 1COR.12 and 14 can be realized. There is no single 'pastor' in those verses drawing a paycheck.
  Does your 'pastor' have the name 'Pastor' in front of his or her name?

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Re: Jesus not allowed to be Head.
« Reply #11 on: Sat Oct 15, 2011 - 16:08:48 »
Ephesians speaks of 'pastors' plural. Pastors: shepherds: poimen. The pastors, plural, are to watch over the newbee sheep. Watch for wolves and teach and train then get the heck out of the way so 1COR.12 and 14 can be realized. There is no single 'pastor' in those verses drawing a paycheck.
  Does your 'pastor' have the name 'Pastor' in front of his or her name?

Yes, and that is only one of his giftings. He is also gifted in prophecy and preaching and teaching. He deserves his paycheck and more. He is the shepherd of our flock, which is comprised of many pastors.

Ephesians 4:11
And His gifts were [varied; He Himself appointed and gave men to us] some to be apostles (special messengers), some prophets (inspired preachers and expounders), some evangelists (preachers of the Gospel, traveling missionaries), some pastors (shepherds of His flock) and teachers.

1 Timothy 5:17
Elders who do their work well should be respected and paid well, especially those who work hard at both preaching and teaching.

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Re: Jesus not allowed to be Head.
« Reply #12 on: Sat Oct 15, 2011 - 17:09:39 »
1 Timothy 5:17 uses the word time which means honour, value, respect, could mean money.The word opsonion would have been more appropriate meaning money but this word was not used. We are also to honour one another. Does that mean we pay each other money? I think not. Also in Acts20 the elders are told to work jobs so they could help take care of the poor which flies in the face of a 'paid clergy'. Also definition of a hireling is one who takes wages. The conotation of hireling was not a pretty picture. Jesus as an itinerate preacher never took up an offering but because He traveled and taught and preached He trusted the Father and folks donated to His cause.
  You said that the elder you have places 'Pastor' in front of his name. Jesus the Son of God told us not to place honorific titles in front of our name in Matt 23. God bless.

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Re: Jesus not allowed to be Head.
« Reply #13 on: Sat Oct 15, 2011 - 18:58:08 »
1 Timothy 5:17 uses the word time which means honour, value, respect, could mean money.The word opsonion would have been more appropriate meaning money but this word was not used. We are also to honour one another. Does that mean we pay each other money? I think not.

Sure it does.

Quote
Also in Acts20 the elders are told to work jobs so they could help take care of the poor which flies in the face of a 'paid clergy'. Also definition of a hireling is one who takes wages. The conotation of hireling was not a pretty picture. Jesus as an itinerate preacher never took up an offering but because He traveled and taught and preached He trusted the Father and folks donated to His cause.

It's just another way of serving.

Quote
You said that the elder you have places 'Pastor' in front of his name. Jesus the Son of God told us not to place honorific titles in front of our name in Matt 23. God bless.

Pastors are elders. We call Him Bob, and out of respect of the office, we also call Him Pastor Bob. This is not an honorific title. It is a role in the church that the scriptures outline.

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Re: Jesus not allowed to be Head.
« Reply #14 on: Sat Oct 15, 2011 - 19:06:00 »
The Bible plainly teaches congregations to financially support those who care for the spiritual needs of the church body. This includes pastors, teachers and other full-time ministers who are called by God for service. Spiritual leaders can best serve when they are fully dedicated to the work of the Lord—to the study and teaching of God's Word and ministering to the needs of the body of Christ. If a minister has to work a job to provide for his family, then he will be distracted from ministry and forced to divide his priorities, leaving less time to adequately shepherd his flock.

What the Bible Says About Paying Pastors

1 Timothy 5:17-18
Elders who do their work well should be respected and paid well, especially those who work hard at both preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, “You must not muzzle an ox to keep it from eating as it treads out the grain.

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Re: Jesus not allowed to be Head.
« Reply #15 on: Sat Oct 15, 2011 - 19:18:19 »
Again in1COR12 and 14 all the parts are ministering. Do they all get paid a salary? Those that go forth are entitled to support. The elders are told by Paul to work jobs. Do you call Paul a liar? Muzzling the ox was dealing with the apostles missionary ventures. They were given food. Not salaries, perks, free housing[parsonage], retirement plans, car, etc.etc..
  Where are you located? I'd be glad to come and pastor you with other elders but one thing...I'll do it without charge and we will follow Paul's outline. We'll use all offerings to help the needy as Paul instructed and support mission work.

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Re: Jesus not allowed to be Head.
« Reply #16 on: Sat Oct 15, 2011 - 19:21:43 »
Again in1COR12 and 14 all the parts are ministering. Do they all get paid a salary? Those that go forth are entitled to support. The elders are told by Paul to work jobs. Do you call Paul a liar? Muzzling the ox was dealing with the apostles missionary ventures. They were given food. Not salaries, perks, free housing[parsonage], retirement plans, car, etc.etc..
  Where are you located? I'd be glad to come and pastor you with other elders but one thing...I'll do it without charge and we will follow Paul's outline. We'll use all offerings to help the needy as Paul instructed and support mission work.

Are they leading the entire local Body of Christ? Are they shepherds responsible for the spiritual health and welfare of people?

Paul is no liar, but you are looking at Scripture with an agenda. Can't learn that way.

We already do it God's way.

Why are you called, 'ejected'?

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Re: Jesus not allowed to be Head.
« Reply #17 on: Sat Oct 15, 2011 - 19:42:24 »
I could say the same about you. An agenda...fleecing the sheep. I don't want anyone's money. I guess that's my agenda. I don't want to devour widow's houses and grind the face of the poor...my agenda again. I want to help the widow, not rob her...I'm just an agenda kinda guy I reckon. Paul had the same agenda by the way. So did Jesus. Jesus was agenda mad!
Let's try that one point again. If all the body parts are ministering in turn as it were....who quits there job and gets the salary...everyone?

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Re: Jesus not allowed to be Head.
« Reply #18 on: Sat Oct 15, 2011 - 19:47:02 »
I could say the same about you. An agenda...fleecing the sheep.




Quote
I don't want anyone's money. I guess that's my agenda. I don't want to devour widow's houses and grind the face of the poor...my agenda again. I want to help the widow, not rob her...I'm just an agenda kinda guy I reckon. Paul had the same agenda by the way. So did Jesus. Jesus was agenda mad!
Let's try that one point again. If all the body parts are ministering in turn as it were....who quits there job and gets the salary...everyone?


The poor are called to tithe and give also. Are you teaching against that?

Shepherds of the flock deserve pay.

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Re: Jesus not allowed to be Head.
« Reply #19 on: Sat Oct 15, 2011 - 21:26:56 »
The seeds have been planted. I now shake the dust.

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Re: Jesus not allowed to be Head.
« Reply #20 on: Sun Oct 16, 2011 - 08:20:07 »
For the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God. (Matthew 15:6 ESV)

This revelation of Christ in us, when it is a true, real, living revelation, not only leads to and makes for stability and assurance and confidence, wonder and freshness and Life, but it leads to loneliness, and I should be false to you if I did not say so, and indicate what that means; because the majority even of Christians are still hide-bound by tradition. They are still all of that other kind: what they have received they have received through men or from a man; they have taken on an already completed, rounded-off system of truth and teaching called Christianity. They have entered into it and taken it up, and they cannot see beyond it. You do not question their sincerity, nor do you doubt their earnestness, but there is that about all they have which is so second-hand. It is something which has existed through the Christian centuries, developed by this one and that one, shaped, formed and phrased by different teachers. It has become the evangel, evangelical Christianity in all its set terms, phraseology and forms. They do not see beyond it. And when one moves out of that realm into a personal, direct knowledge of the Lord through what we often term an open heaven - but not, mark you, through a new or different revelation of Christ that is something apart from the Scriptures - into that experience, where we can say, "It pleased God to reveal His Son in me, and with me it is so real that sometimes I wonder if anyone has such a knowledge, such an experience"; when we move that way, we move into a lonely realm. The majority cannot follow, cannot go with us, and cannot understand.

It does seem to me that there was something of that about Paul, that even other apostles were not able to grasp or apprehend Paul. He seemed to be very much one by himself. Yet here too we see the wonderful grace of God.... It does seem that even Paul, surrounded though he was by all the other apostles, had to go a lonely way, because this revelation was to him something so personal. It does mean that: understand that; and probably some of you do understand it in your experience. It will put you very largely into a lonely position, so far as the majority of other Christians are concerned, if you are going this way.

By T. Austin-Sparks from: The Fight of the Faith - Chapter 4

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Re: Jesus not allowed to be Head.
« Reply #21 on: Sun Oct 16, 2011 - 09:24:30 »
For the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God. (Matthew 15:6 ESV)

This revelation of Christ in us, when it is a true, real, living revelation, not only leads to and makes for stability and assurance and confidence, wonder and freshness and Life, but it leads to loneliness, and I should be false to you if I did not say so, and indicate what that means; because the majority even of Christians are still hide-bound by tradition. They are still all of that other kind: what they have received they have received through men or from a man; they have taken on an already completed, rounded-off system of truth and teaching called Christianity. They have entered into it and taken it up, and they cannot see beyond it. You do not question their sincerity, nor do you doubt their earnestness, but there is that about all they have which is so second-hand. It is something which has existed through the Christian centuries, developed by this one and that one, shaped, formed and phrased by different teachers. It has become the evangel, evangelical Christianity in all its set terms, phraseology and forms. They do not see beyond it. And when one moves out of that realm into a personal, direct knowledge of the Lord through what we often term an open heaven - but not, mark you, through a new or different revelation of Christ that is something apart from the Scriptures - into that experience, where we can say, "It pleased God to reveal His Son in me, and with me it is so real that sometimes I wonder if anyone has such a knowledge, such an experience"; when we move that way, we move into a lonely realm. The majority cannot follow, cannot go with us, and cannot understand.

It does seem to me that there was something of that about Paul, that even other apostles were not able to grasp or apprehend Paul. He seemed to be very much one by himself. Yet here too we see the wonderful grace of God.... It does seem that even Paul, surrounded though he was by all the other apostles, had to go a lonely way, because this revelation was to him something so personal. It does mean that: understand that; and probably some of you do understand it in your experience. It will put you very largely into a lonely position, so far as the majority of other Christians are concerned, if you are going this way.

By T. Austin-Sparks from: The Fight of the Faith - Chapter 4

Austin-Sparks is good. Now you're talkin'!

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Re: Jesus not allowed to be Head.
« Reply #22 on: Wed Oct 19, 2011 - 22:33:08 »
I've been saying the same thing. My only problem is that I'm not dead with a lot of books with my name on it. Also I don't have a spot on TBN. Of course they'ed never allow me on. I'd fry em alive with the word that they so twist for their own profits.

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Re: Jesus not allowed to be Head.
« Reply #23 on: Thu Dec 22, 2011 - 11:32:10 »
Where in either testaments does it say that the widows and poor are required to tithe? Thanks.

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Re: Jesus not allowed to be Head.
« Reply #24 on: Fri Dec 23, 2011 - 01:10:06 »
The Bible plainly teaches congregations to financially support those who care for the spiritual needs of the church body. This includes pastors, teachers and other full-time ministers who are called by God for service. Spiritual leaders can best serve when they are fully dedicated to the work of the Lord—to the study and teaching of God's Word and ministering to the needs of the body of Christ. If a minister has to work a job to provide for his family, then he will be distracted from ministry and forced to divide his priorities, leaving less time to adequately shepherd his flock.

What the Bible Says About Paying Pastors

1 Timothy 5:17-18
Elders who do their work well should be respected and paid well, especially those who work hard at both preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, “You must not muzzle an ox to keep it from eating as it treads out the grain.

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Re: Jesus not allowed to be Head.
« Reply #25 on: Fri Dec 23, 2011 - 14:50:35 »
The heavens do rule. (Daniel 4:26)

There is a great need today that there should be the rule of the Heavens. But the Holy Spirit has got to do it, and we have got to come to recognize the fact that what we see in organized Christianity is not it. The spiritual people of God are more and more feeling separated from the old system of Christianity and churches and ecclesiastical systems. People are recognizing a deep dissatisfaction with what has held the ground so long, and there is a cry for spiritual reality. Many sermons are clever and full of mental ability, but they are starvation to the spirit. There is all the activity, but it is not spiritual Life, and I believe the Lord is going to show us the nature of the thing that is in the heavens. The thing that man has brought down on to the earth and taken up and perpetuated is only at best a poor imitation of things in the heavens, but in a very large realm it is a caricature of heavenly things.

Man has taken hold of heavenly things and brought them down to earth and made them earthly things. That is where things all went wrong at the beginning. At the first, things were of the Spirit. The people gathered in their homes or anywhere. It was not the place. It was not the ministry. It was the Lord, and they were circled around Him. But then the day came when they said, "We must have public buildings," and then the architecture became a factor, and so things developed, and they became something on the earth for men to take note of. They wanted man to be attracted, and that was the first step in one of the greatest perils that has overtaken the church. For prestige, recognition, the world to be attracted, there is the result that you get the mixed multitudes in the church. If you can attach some big names to it, you can attract the people, and one of the devil's greatest measures has been popularizing the church. The preeminent thing is lost, that the church and Christ is a mystery to the natural man and that it is no use to expect the natural man to appreciate it. The church is essentially a spiritual thing according to the mind of God. What really governs everything is God's conception of things, not ours, and if we are going on with the Lord there is going to be a whole system of change and we are going more and more to view things from the heavenly stand­point. You have got to get into the heavenly system to get heavenly results.

By T. Austin-Sparks from: The Heavens Do Rule - Chapter 2

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Re: Jesus not allowed to be Head.
« Reply #26 on: Wed Jan 04, 2012 - 00:45:00 »
ejected, I clicked on this thread ready to back your point but I'm not sure I can completely do that

"Don’t you know that those who serve in the temple get their food from the temple, and that those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel." 1 Corinthians 9:13-14

I agree with you that Jesus is not allowed to be the backbone and centralized focus of the church and for that you are spot on.  Anything that stands in the way of God's word is wrong, but we cannot throw the church away, because the church is God-ordained.  Now restoring it back to the Biblical Acts church is a lengthy task but I believe we are called to be a part of that mission just as much as we are called to spread the gospel.

I know many people who earn there living preaching the gospel and being instruments for God that are supported by their church to do so.  The ones worth their weight are the ones that don't do it for the money but humbly accept the church's support in order to live while investing their everyday life into the work of leading the restoration and healing of the church.
I've got a laundry list of Biblical inaccuracies within the church too, and I, like you, am very passionate about the disturbing face of most churches.  Face it, the church needs guidance.  However, to effectively solve these issues we need to become GUIDES not CRITICS. 


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Re: Jesus not allowed to be Head.
« Reply #27 on: Wed Jan 04, 2012 - 03:12:30 »
How can one guide if he does not point out error? Paul pointed out error. This 'don't ask, don't tell' doctrine in the 'church' is not biblically sound.
I believe Paul was speaking about apostles/missionaries who were 'preaching the gospel in all the world' as Jesus commanded concerning the 'treading ox' deal. But he said their was a better way. 'Don't charge ' for the gospel lest it be hindered. I don't know of any that are striving to follow Paul's lead on this.
    As far as the body that gathers together, all of the 'body parts'  seem to be 'ministering the things of God' in turn 1COR12 and 14. So do they quit their jobs and get on the pay roll? My opinion is no. Now I don't expect the majority to see it the way I'm saying it. I'm not expecting to many converts here. I'm just sharing how I'm understanding it. Also in Acts 20 Paul told all the elders/leaders to 'work jobs' so they could help support the poor along with the rest of the folks.
   

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Re: Jesus not allowed to be Head.
« Reply #28 on: Fri Feb 03, 2012 - 23:13:59 »
With all due respect, men leading us has been the problem. Men are still 'leading' in place of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit will lead each one of us as we reach maturity.
With all due respect, who are you to decide which one is guided by the Holy Spirit? Did the Holy Spirit tell you?

I think you have set your self up as the authority as to what is and is not proper worship. True worship cannot be derived from 1 or 2 verses in the Bible.

Peace and All Good


Teresa



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Re: Jesus not allowed to be Head.
« Reply #29 on: Sat Feb 04, 2012 - 02:46:21 »
If you have not learned discernment yet, I understand that. Been there..for years.We all need to be in the place spiritually where we can hear His still small voice. Otherwise we can go sit in any 'church' building in the land and feel evrything is just fine. We could be swayed by any form of doctrine.
  Yes the Holy Spirit has shown me and many others a myriad of spiritual thruths...that's His job if we are willing to seek Him. 'Study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.' I beg you to study 1Cor. 12 and 14 to get a picture of what God wants in a 'gathering of believers'.
  The Spirit of God working and yes, using all the body parts in their spiritual giftings, not just one paid professional. The ekklesia lost that dynamic incrementally through the first few centuries.
  Those that taught well were honored with double honor. Honor here means honor in the largest sense of the greek word. But to the broader point, teaching was not the only function. Their were those who prophesied [give an anointed sure word of prophesy], tongues, interpretation of tongues, a song or hymm, etc., etc., by all the body parts, not just by one salaried man with a team of professionals.
  The apostles/missionaries had a right to support from the 'body'. The widow and poor had a right to support from the 'body'. But there is no SINGLE pastor, as we know today, found in those chapters. Everyone is ministering, sometimes one to another, and to the body as a whole, everything done decently and in order as the Holy Spirit directs. There are 58 'one to another' verses, not  one to 50 or one to 500, and on and on. There is only One Head over the body, and this just in folks...it's not 'the pastor'. He is mysteriously missing. In an average N.T. style gathering there may be several shepherds, those that tend to the needs of the sheep. Those are functions, not offices. All are spiritual gifts that God gave unto man severally as He wills to build up the body of Christ unto a spiritual house, not bricks and mortar with corporate papers and CEO in a Lemo with perks, large salary, and a retirement plan. You won't find that represented in the scriptures.
  Once again. Query: If all are ministering in 1Cor 12 and 14, then who quits his job, gets a business card made with Pastor in front of his name, and then tells everyone else that they are supposed to pay him offerings let alone the false tithe?
  Don't bother to try find this self appointed guy in your N.T.. He aint there. Do read 3John where Diotrephes tried to exalt himself above the brethren, take authority over them. Not good.
  
  
  

Offline Teresa

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Re: Jesus not allowed to be Head.
« Reply #30 on: Sun Feb 05, 2012 - 06:37:21 »
If you have not learned discernment yet, I understand that. Been there..for years.We all need to be in the place spiritually where we can hear His still small voice. Otherwise we can go sit in any 'church' building in the land and feel evrything is just fine. We could be swayed by any form of doctrine.
  Yes the Holy Spirit has shown me and many others a myriad of spiritual thruths...that's His job if we are willing to seek Him. 
How do you know it is the Holy Spirit?  The devil masquerade as the angel of light all the time. How do you know that it was indeed the Holy Spirit who is guiding you?
Quote
The Spirit of God working and yes, using all the body parts in their spiritual giftings, not just one paid professional. The ekklesia lost that dynamic incrementally through the first few centuries.
Which is of course only your opinion. You have not got a shred of fact to base that on.

Peace and All Good

Teresa

Offline p.progress

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Re: Jesus not allowed to be Head.
« Reply #31 on: Thu Feb 09, 2012 - 02:06:25 »
Teresa,
I have been following your 'tennis match' with chosenone regarding divorce and remarriage. I have appreciated your reasoning abilities in that forum. [But by the way, it is futile to continue to try to instruct; correct; train or even reprove or rebuke individuals like 'chosenone', concerning their notions about divorce, marriage and so-called 're-marriage' (legalized adultery) in that tread: "...after the first and second admonition reject...". If you want to invest any more time with her, then perhaps you might just try asking a bunch of questions first to see 'why' she believes what see believes - just a thought].

But here though Teresa, I believe you are out of your element and league at present...and frankly sister, without meaning at all to be harsh, I believe you to be out of order here as well - as far as scriptural order is concerned...and coincidentally, as is found laid out in the very sections that 'ejected' has referenced several or more times regarding the way in which the ekklesia (called out saints) are to behave in the house of God (as the household of God that we are). Please go read and study carefully and meditate on 1Cor.14...but in particular for you at the moment, what has been assigned the number of verses 34b - 36:

The following is my own uninspired personal rendering of how I wonder if perhaps Paul intended his thoughts to be communicated in this section of 1Cor.14:29-38:

[29] Let the prophets speak two or [at the most] three [at a time in succession], and [let] let the other [males] judge [before proceeding on with the next set of two or three prophets].
[30] If [any thing] be revealed to another that sitteth by [the prophet who is presently speaking], let [him] first hold his peace [and not speak over the prophet presently prophesying].
[31] For ye may all [male and perhaps female] prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
[32] And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
[33] For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace.

[34] As in all churches of the saints, let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak [in matters that require exercise of authority by the brethren to judge, correct and teach]; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
[35] And if they will [question, or] learn any thing [that had been said and then judged by the prophets during the exercising of the various gifts by all in the assembly of the saints], let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak [to matters that are outside their purview - jurisdiction] in the church.

[36] What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
[37] If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
[38] But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.


I don't know 'ejected', but I am certain I understand and am keenly familiar with and aware about what and why he is expressing what he is here; as I myself have found to my great and continual grief as well, the sad, sad state of professing Christendom - and it didn't start recently. There is a very long history of having departed from the faith. Many aspects that make up what is revealed in the scriptures to be sound doctrine, sound in the faith, what unfeigned faith consist of I'm afraid is little understood or to be desired among the many. Both branches of the majority of Westernized professing Christendom - Roman Catholicism and her daughter Protestantism, are in my studied opinion, very far removed from the faith which was once delivered unto the saints at the first. That is not to say that the crudely fundamental basics of the scriptural message about the Redeemer and what we need to do to be accepted in the beloved through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus is not being proclaimed at all. It is. It is the going on to perfection that is greatly being overlooked, neglected and even denied and rejected as being of any real serious consequence. John 3:16 is the bumper-sticker slogan I am afraid; and little else is of any interest or value to many.

'Ejected' is sadly correct in his estimation of things. I have experienced it myself for many years.

Would say much more, but very late.

p.progress




« Last Edit: Thu Feb 09, 2012 - 02:15:59 by p.progress »

Offline BlackSheep

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Re: Jesus not allowed to be Head.
« Reply #32 on: Thu Feb 09, 2012 - 16:19:19 »
Hello - I am named BlackSheep because I have been outsted by the organized church for standing for the truth. I have been one who has been marked (Romans 13) as one to avoid because I cause division. Jesus said, "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." (Mark 10:34) I agree that I have caused division, however, not because my beliefs are contrary to the doctrine I first learned from the Word. Also, I have heeded the call from the Word, "To come out from among them..." I do not espouse that I have all the answers, I am in the process of being brought to maturity through His Word.

I agree that there are those within the current modern church enviroment who, like Diotrephes, love to have the preeminence among there own. I think that Paul is the standard for those who would desire "the good thing" of sheparding God's flock. Although Paul had the "power" to demand support, he did not use it - that no man could lay a charge against him. His discription of how a man may receive support is very in line with God's ways, and I think I see it rightly... An Oxen will eat only enough to supply his needs as he works treading out the grain. I do not think the Oxen would expect to be loaded up with a cart of grain for future supply after his shift was done...

The modern church building and interior lay-out are even contrary to the Biblical way of assembling. Rows of pews, center isle, elevated platform, (some even have a elevated preachers box) where a single man orate's his message for the masses. If Paul and Barnabas entered into most church buildings today I am afraid they would be thrown off a cliff, or at least branded as "one who causes division".

The condition of Christianity today in America is proving that the following scripture may be applied to us in the negative: For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ (II Peter 1:8). We have become unproductive and ineffective!

The purpose of the true Church of God is similar to the purpose of the ancient Nation of Israel. Israel was a “called out people

Offline BlackSheep

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Re: Jesus not allowed to be Head.
« Reply #33 on: Thu Feb 09, 2012 - 17:50:39 »
Greetings, ejected... feels good to shake off the dust, eh?

Dr. Russel Kelley has a wonderful book entitled, "Should the Church Teach Tithing?"

The tithe died when the center partition was rent in two... No more need for Levitical Priesthood support! It Is Finished!!!

I have observered over the years that there are two times of the year that the "Pastor" will chide the attendees of "his" church to "tithe". First is in the months of September - October, knowing that the people will be less inclined to "tithe" during Xmas... Second, just before the summer vacation season when the coffers are going to take a big hit...

If a "church" desires it's people to support the machine, it would be more honest to proclaim from the pulpit something like this: Beloved, I have been in error all these years mandating you MUST pay the tithe! I have come to understand that the tithe was for the National Religious System of ancient Israel, and because of the finished work on the cross, the tithe is no longer required. However, if you would like to continue to meet here in this lavishly decorated building with all the amenities; large video screens & sound system, musical & stage productions, glossy printed hand-outs, book store, ministries tables, summer air-conditioning and winter heating, coffee-bar, etc...

Now, I know this scenario does not fit every church building in the nation, however, they know who they are. Many large church organizations are more like a "Christianized" country club. A place for "liked-minded" people to gather and engage in all sorts of activities. It's a wonderful distraction from the reality of living in the world. We are to be in the world, but not Of the world. These organizations seem to be very worldly.   

Offline Teresa

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Re: Jesus not allowed to be Head.
« Reply #34 on: Fri Feb 10, 2012 - 06:51:28 »
Teresa,
I have been following your 'tennis match' with chosenone regarding divorce and remarriage. I have appreciated your reasoning abilities in that forum. [But by the way, it is futile to continue to try to instruct; correct; train or even reprove or rebuke individuals like 'chosenone', concerning their notions about divorce, marriage and so-called 're-marriage' (legalized adultery) in that tread: "...after the first and second admonition reject...". If you want to invest any more time with her, then perhaps you might just try asking a bunch of questions first to see 'why' she believes what see believes - just a thought].  
I don't need to ask her why she believes what she believes - she has already said why. And the why is precisely what i have been questioning and what I have been showing to be a false proof.

Quote
But here though Teresa, I believe you are out of your element and league at present...and frankly sister, without meaning at all to be harsh, I believe you to be out of order here as well - as far as scriptural order is concerned...and coincidentally, as is found laid out in the very sections that 'ejected' has referenced several or more times regarding the way in which the ekklesia (called out saints) are to behave in the house of God (as the household of God that we are). Please go read and study carefully and meditate on 1Cor.14...but in particular for you at the moment, what has been assigned the number of verses 34b - 36:
I am not questioning Scripture. I am questioning Ejected's presumptive authority to determine who is and who is not following God and who is and who is not worshipping according to God's prescription.

I would not be surprised if he is guilty of the sin he accuses everyone else of. Be careful of taking the flint from someone's eye as there might be a boulder in yours is a good advice from our Lord.

Let me put it this way, most Protestant Churches do not allow God to be head.  The reason for this is that what underpins Protestant belief is relativism - private interpretation.  In this sense it is not Chrsit who is head but the self.  Ejected does this too. When he reads the Bible he reads it according to his own interpretation. So therefore, he is the head and Jesus come's secondary. I am sure that there some things in the Bible that he ignores or sets aside because they are not comfortable - i.e. they do not jive with his own thoughts.  That is not allowing Christ to be head.



Peace and All Good

Teresa