Author Topic: Marriage/Divorce/Remarriage: Why Are God's Anointed Silent?  (Read 34597 times)

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HRoberson

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Re: Marriage/Divorce/Remarriage: Why Are God's Anointed Silent?
« Reply #35 on: Mon Oct 02, 2006 - 23:25:24 »
If a marriage is wrong the first day it'll be wrong 5 years from now, is that what y'all are saying?

No. I don't subscribe to the idea that marriage is wrong.

I can go with Cross-titled last sentence:
Quote
I don't think the issue was remarrying after a divorce, but not divorcing in order to marry another.

But BoG's point is correct. If something is wrong, multiple repetitions of it don't make it right. But that assumes the thing is wrong from the beginning. Marriage is not.

HR


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Re: Marriage/Divorce/Remarriage: Why Are God's Anointed Silent?
« Reply #35 on: Mon Oct 02, 2006 - 23:25:24 »

Offline janine

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Re: Marriage/Divorce/Remarriage: Why Are God's Anointed Silent?
« Reply #36 on: Mon Oct 02, 2006 - 23:40:27 »
Well, yeah.  Somebody's got to say that the marriage is somehow wrong in itslef for the continuing to live as man and wife to be sinful in itself.

And if it's wrong to make love as man and wife -- then it's wrong to live as man and wife, period. Important as sex is -- and great fun, oh boy -- I mean, really great, distractingly wonderfully fantastically great stuff that -- God sure can invent some good stuff, yes? -- OK, where was I?

Um...

Sex is important, but it is not the defining element of a marriage.  So, as has been mentioned above, that some people teach,  if it's wrong for a man and woman who are married to have sex, because of a problem with one of them not having a right to remarry -- then it's a problem to be married at all.

HRoberson

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Re: Marriage/Divorce/Remarriage: Why Are God's Anointed Silent?
« Reply #37 on: Mon Oct 02, 2006 - 23:46:29 »
Well, yeah.  Somebody's got to say that the marriage is somehow wrong in itslef for the continuing to live as man and wife to be sinful in itself.

And if it's wrong to make love as man and wife -- then it's wrong to live as man and wife, period. Important as sex is -- and great fun, oh boy -- I mean, really great, distractingly wonderfully fantastically great stuff that -- God sure can invent some good stuff, yes? -- OK, where was I?

Um...

Sex is important, but it is not the defining element of a marriage.  So, as has been mentioned above, that some people teach,  if it's wrong for a man and woman who are married to have sex, because of a problem with one of them not having a right to remarry -- then it's a problem to be married at all.

Must be getting late.

No marriage is wrong. Period. Sex or no sex, marriage is not wrong.

Divorce for the purpose of marrying another is wrong.

But once it's done, it's done.

A subsequent marriage isn't part of the divorce.

HR

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Re: Marriage/Divorce/Remarriage: Why Are God's Anointed Silent?
« Reply #37 on: Mon Oct 02, 2006 - 23:46:29 »

Offline janine

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Re: Marriage/Divorce/Remarriage: Why Are God's Anointed Silent?
« Reply #38 on: Mon Oct 02, 2006 - 23:48:46 »
Yup.

Offline normfromga

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Re: Marriage/Divorce/Remarriage: Why Are God's Anointed Silent?
« Reply #39 on: Tue Oct 03, 2006 - 15:42:59 »

No marriage is wrong. Period. Sex or no sex, marriage is not wrong.

Quote
Matthew 19:9   And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except [it be] for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

I'm confused... ???

BTW, if an unmarried boy "lusts after" an unmarried girl (or vise versa), is that adultery?

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Re: Marriage/Divorce/Remarriage: Why Are God's Anointed Silent?
« Reply #39 on: Tue Oct 03, 2006 - 15:42:59 »



HRoberson

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Re: Marriage/Divorce/Remarriage: Why Are God's Anointed Silent?
« Reply #40 on: Tue Oct 03, 2006 - 17:21:37 »

No marriage is wrong. Period. Sex or no sex, marriage is not wrong.

Quote
Matthew 19:9   And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except [it be] for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

I'm confused... ???

BTW, if an unmarried boy "lusts after" an unmarried girl (or vise versa), is that adultery?

Please take my comments in context....including my earlier posts about the context of Jesus' sayings.

The questions Jesus is addressing are from people who think they are great people because they put their wives away "according to Moses." Jesus says, "No, you are still sinning because you are divorcing for the wrong reason and marry another." You commit adultery when you violate your commitment to your spouse, setting them adrift, and hooking up with someone else. In His discussion with these guys, it's all (divorce and remarriage) part of the package. They did not ask, and He is not answering "So tell us, can we just divorce our wives [and not get married again]?

It is in breaking the commitment that we sin; not in remarrying. But for the sake of argument, I'll grant that point: Marrying someone else equals adultery. OK. We are still left with the problem of whether these newly married folks should now divorce each other or continue in their new marriage.

Which course do you think Jesus would recommend?

If the newly married folks continued married to each other, do they sin anew every day? Every second?

No. Now that they are in a new relationship, they are expected to remain faithful to that commitment. They've already messed up the previous one.

HR
« Last Edit: Tue Oct 03, 2006 - 17:34:05 by HRoberson »

boringoldguy

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Re: Marriage/Divorce/Remarriage: Why Are God's Anointed Silent?
« Reply #41 on: Tue Oct 03, 2006 - 17:25:41 »
I'm a little confused too, Norm.     In that passage from Matthew,  the "marry another" part is part of the adultery.  So I don't know that I'd go so far as to say that no marriage is wrong.

If Lester divorces Edith so that he can marry Thelma,  then marrying Thelma is part of the wrong.

As to your other question -  an unmarried boy "lusting after" an unmarried girl,  I don't know.   But as I said in a class once -  when Jesus said this,  he wasn't talking to the high school group from the Sea of Galilee synagogue.   He was talking to grown men.   I think that may point toward an answer.   (And I'm not saying that impure thoughts are ever anything but impure thoughts -  but, for example,  some young fellow eagerly anticipating his wedding night is hardly a sin.)

Offline normfromga

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Re: Marriage/Divorce/Remarriage: Why Are God's Anointed Silent?
« Reply #42 on: Wed Oct 04, 2006 - 08:36:19 »
But for the sake of argument, I'll grant that point: Marrying someone else equals adultery. OK. We are still left with the problem of whether these newly married folks should now divorce each other or continue in their new marriage.

Which course do you think Jesus would recommend?

If the newly married folks continued married to each other, do they sin anew every day? Every second?

No. Now that they are in a new relationship, they are expected to remain faithful to that commitment. They've already messed up the previous one.

HR
You ask WWJD...

I don't think we have to ponder long, for He already answered in Matthew 19:12
Quote
For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.
(NIV)

Yeah, this is a tough response!  A similar stand cost John the Baptist his head.  Note that between this verse, and the previous cited above, was one of the few instances His disciples voiced incredulity, suggesting that, by these standards, perhaps the whole institution of marriage should be abolished.

And I think this hits upon the answer to the original question, which may have been answered before, but since I haven't parsed the whole thread, I may have missed it.

Speaking for my congregation, I don't think I have heard the issue preached from the pulpit not only because it might offend visitors, but perhaps even a member or two.  We are a military town, and thus we have people placing membership from various backgrounds.  I have no idea if new members are "vetted" on this issue or not.

How one counsels and consoles a couple who discover themselves in an adulterous situation, especially if there a children involved, would be quite difficult.  I would suggest that the couple pray and study the issue, and decide for themselves what they must do, not to please themselves, us or their congregation and community, but God alone. ::nodding::


Offline normfromga

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Re: Marriage/Divorce/Remarriage: Why Are God's Anointed Silent?
« Reply #43 on: Wed Oct 04, 2006 - 08:49:30 »
I'm a little confused too, Norm.     In that passage from Matthew,  the "marry another" part is part of the adultery.  So I don't know that I'd go so far as to say that no marriage is wrong.

If Lester divorces Edith so that he can marry Thelma,  then marrying Thelma is part of the wrong.
More importantly, poor Richard, who marries Edith, is committing adultery even though he may not have even known the couple before the "divorce."

Quote
As to your other question -  an unmarried boy "lusting after" an unmarried girl,  I don't know.   But as I said in a class once -  when Jesus said this,  he wasn't talking to the high school group from the Sea of Galilee synagogue.   He was talking to grown men.   I think that may point toward an answer.   (And I'm not saying that impure thoughts are ever anything but impure thoughts -  but, for example,  some young fellow eagerly anticipating his wedding night is hardly a sin.)
Cecil Hook wrote an interesting essay which claims that for adultery to occur, someone must be married (or else it would just be "fornication.")

He further suggests that all Jesus did was combine two commandments, one against adultery, and the other against covertness, into one.

He also suggested, and I concur, that nearly any other interpretation would unnecessarily condemn generations of adolescent boys. ::nodding::

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Re: Marriage/Divorce/Remarriage: Why Are God's Anointed Silent?
« Reply #43 on: Wed Oct 04, 2006 - 08:49:30 »

Offline Cross-titled

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Re: Marriage/Divorce/Remarriage: Why Are God's Anointed Silent?
« Reply #44 on: Wed Oct 04, 2006 - 16:10:38 »
If Lester divorces Edith so that he can marry Thelma,  then marrying Thelma is part of the wrong.
More importantly, poor Richard, who marries Edith, is committing adultery even though he may not have even known the couple before the "divorce."[/quote]

More importantly?  How so?

What sin did poor Richard commit in this example?  Who did he commit adultery against?

Why is "divorce" in quotes?  Are you suggesting they really aren't divorced?

Offline normfromga

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Re: Marriage/Divorce/Remarriage: Why Are God's Anointed Silent?
« Reply #45 on: Thu Oct 05, 2006 - 08:14:31 »
Quote
If Lester divorces Edith so that he can marry Thelma,  then marrying Thelma is part of the wrong.
More importantly, poor Richard, who marries Edith, is committing adultery even though he may not have even known the couple before the "divorce."

More importantly?  How so?
  It is more important in that it disproves a statement made earlier, that "No marriage is wrong, period!"

Richard committed adultery, which, IMO, is wrong, solely because he married Edith, not because he divorced anyone, or he, otherwise, broke some covenant or another.

Quote
What sin did poor Richard commit in this example?
Adultery 
Quote
Who did he commit adultery against?
Do you need a "victim"?  How about God?

Quote
Why is "divorce" in quotes?  Are you suggesting they really aren't divorced?
I am saying that if they were no longer married in the sight of God, the word "adultery" would never appear in these passages...

Offline Cross-titled

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Re: Marriage/Divorce/Remarriage: Why Are God's Anointed Silent?
« Reply #46 on: Thu Oct 05, 2006 - 11:00:54 »
It is more important in that it disproves a statement made earlier, that "No marriage is wrong, period!"

Oh, OK.  I wasn't relating that statement to HR's post.  You may have to ask him, but I think the point being made there was that there is nothing wrong with any marriage, in itself.  The reasons someone gets married may be sinful, or the motives or the happentance behind a marriage may be wrong, but once someone makes an honest commitment to a spouse before God in a marriage, there is nothing sinful about the marriage.  Consequences may follow, and probably will, that need to be dealt with  but I don't believe that an acceptable way to deal with that situation would be to destroy another marriage.

Richard committed adultery, which, IMO, is wrong, solely because he married Edith, not because he divorced anyone, or he, otherwise, broke some covenant or another.

Quote
What sin did poor Richard commit in this example?
Adultery 
Quote
Who did he commit adultery against?
Do you need a "victim"?  How about God?

I guess I don't believe Richard committed adultery soley because he married Edith.  I don't believe the scriptures teach that.  The Jews of the day understood what adultery was (look in Leviticus) and there was always a victim, someone who was wronged in some way, whether it was a girl's father or owner or husband, etc.  Even God called Israel adulterous because they put other things first instead of God first.  God was wronged.  The putting away of one in order to have another is adulterous.

I agree Richard would be guilty of adultery if he knew he was taking another man's wife or if he knew another man's wife was leaving her husband in order to marry him.  He is just as guilty in destroying a marriage as the one divorcing.  I think that is what is being taught.

Christ was emphasizing the value of marriage.  He is saying that you can't end a marriage just to marry another because you are just trying to legally dump one for another...it's still adultery.


Quote
Why is "divorce" in quotes?  Are you suggesting they really aren't divorced?
I am saying that if they were no longer married in the sight of God, the word "adultery" would never appear in these passages...


I guess I don't understand if someone divorces their spouse in order to marry another how then they aren't really divorced?  And how when they marry another they aren't really married?  Like I mentioned, adultery is horrible because of the break-up of marriages.  It's not that the marriages aren't broken...they are.

But Jesus was addressing their specific question by telling them they weren't observing marriages and holding them to a high standard like they needed to.  They couldn't just throw one marriage to the side for another one and think that was OK.  Christ isn't saying that they weren't indeed thrown away.  He is saying that in so doing they were committing adultery.

HRoberson

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Re: Marriage/Divorce/Remarriage: Why Are God's Anointed Silent?
« Reply #47 on: Thu Oct 05, 2006 - 15:56:18 »

Oh, OK.  I wasn't relating that statement to HR's post.  You may have to ask him, but I think the point being made there was that there is nothing wrong with any marriage, in itself.  The reasons someone gets married may be sinful, or the motives or the happentance behind a marriage may be wrong, but once someone makes an honest commitment to a spouse before God in a marriage, there is nothing sinful about the marriage.  Consequences may follow, and probably will, that need to be dealt with  but I don't believe that an acceptable way to deal with that situation would be to destroy another marriage.

Precisely.

HR

boringoldguy

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Re: Marriage/Divorce/Remarriage: Why Are God's Anointed Silent?
« Reply #48 on: Fri Oct 06, 2006 - 13:36:16 »
It is more important in that it disproves a statement made earlier, that "No marriage is wrong, period!"

Oh, OK.  I wasn't relating that statement to HR's post.  You may have to ask him, but I think the point being made there was that there is nothing wrong with any marriage, in itself.  The reasons someone gets married may be sinful, or the motives or the happentance behind a marriage may be wrong, but once someone makes an honest commitment to a spouse before God in a marriage, there is nothing sinful about the marriage

Let's forget Richard for a while and just deal with Lester, Edith and Thelma.

Jesus said "if anybody divorces his wife and marries another . . .  ."      Marrying another is part of what Jesus said was adultery.   So where do you get that it's not wrong?    Jesus didn't separate the two events and say the divorce was adultery but the new marriage wasn't.   Why do you?

HRoberson

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Re: Marriage/Divorce/Remarriage: Why Are God's Anointed Silent?
« Reply #49 on: Fri Oct 06, 2006 - 15:55:55 »
Because I'm not asking the same question Jesus's interlocutors were.

HR

Offline normfromga

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Re: Marriage/Divorce/Remarriage: Why Are God's Anointed Silent?
« Reply #50 on: Sun Oct 08, 2006 - 19:56:38 »
Because I'm not asking the same question Jesus's interlocutors were.

HR
Matthew 5:32 is from the middle of the Sermon on the Mount...

Who were His "interlocutors"? ::pondering::

HRoberson

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Re: Marriage/Divorce/Remarriage: Why Are God's Anointed Silent?
« Reply #51 on: Sun Oct 08, 2006 - 21:03:46 »
Oh alright....

First I guess I should admit that I don't think the SOTM was all said at the same time. It is a collection of sayings over time that Matthew (or someone else) put together for us. We do not have everything that was said on this occassion, and we may well have some things here that were not said on this occassion.

Matthew and Luke (but not in a SOTM) have the saying almost verbatim; Mark does not. If we assume Markan priority, it is likely that the extra prohibition was added and may not be the words of Jesus. In any event, we simply don't know that Jesus said all of the SOTM while with the disciples on the side of a hill.

And so, I place this discussion with the other marriage debates and don't see it as a separate event. The interlocutors are the same in all cases.

HR

Offline normfromga

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Re: Marriage/Divorce/Remarriage: Why Are God's Anointed Silent?
« Reply #52 on: Sun Oct 08, 2006 - 21:33:34 »
Since you are assuming the "Markan priority", then you must be aware that the earliest renderings of Mark 10:12 says:
Quote
And if, putting away her husband, she should marry another, she commits adultery.

Note that this is just further proof, using your own criteria, that it is the act of remarriage that is adultery. ::tippinghat::


Offline kanham

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Re: Marriage/Divorce/Remarriage: Why Are God's Anointed Silent?
« Reply #53 on: Mon Oct 09, 2006 - 10:01:29 »
To the original post, what do you do when people know the facts but choose to ignore them? I have watched people figure out ways to say everything is okay if they want to do it bad enough. I have sat with those who understood divorce was sinful and wrong and I watched as they did little to work at their marriage.

I have watched people walk out of a marriage course because they don’t want to make the effort necessary to have a healthy, Christ-centered marriage. I don’t know what I can do to make people do what they don’t want to do.

To the rest of the discussion on marriage and divorce, if two believers get a divorce than I have a real issue with it and they need strong council as to what their options are. I ask people if they want God to abandon them for the same reasons? Typically what I have found is that one gets into another relationshp very quickly afterward.

I however do not see that same prohibition existing for non-believers who come to Christ as single. I think Paul gives very specific instructions to these people in 1 Corinthians 7:8, 9.

I council people to seek reconciliation but what happens when their spouse who divorced is living with another woman? Does his decision now control the ex-wife? No. It is clear that because of adultery the bond of marriage is broken.

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Re: Marriage/Divorce/Remarriage: Why Are God's Anointed Silent?
« Reply #54 on: Mon Oct 09, 2006 - 11:43:58 »
Let's forget Richard for a while and just deal with Lester, Edith and Thelma.

Jesus said "if anybody divorces his wife and marries another . . .  ."      Marrying another is part of what Jesus said was adultery.   So where do you get that it's not wrong?    Jesus didn't separate the two events and say the divorce was adultery but the new marriage wasn't.   Why do you?

I know this is asked of HR, but I have an opinion.  ::smile::  This will also respond to Norm's post:

Note that this is just further proof, using your own criteria, that it is the act of remarriage that is adultery. ::tippinghat::

IMO, Jesus was teaching to be faithful to your spouse.  Marriage is sacred.  Don't treat it like it isn't.

In Matthew 5, the talk about divorce is sandwiched between prior verses about not lusting after someone and following verses about your vow.  You are not being faithful to your spouse by wishing in your heart that you could be with someone else.  That is described as adultery, too.  You do NOT have to marry someone else to commit adultery.  But, even if you do, the new marriage, in itself, is not what made it adultery.

In the account in Matthew 19 and the parallel account in Mark and also Luke,  Jesus explains to them the same message.....that God made marriage a holy union, something to be held sacred.  If you don't want your spouse anymore and you want womeone else, you can't just divorce them so you can get married to the other.  Moses made divorce possible because of their hardness, but you are just putting form over substance if you think it's OK to legally divorce someone in order to be free to marry someone else.

The disciples had a hard time with this evidently, but Jesus explained to them "in the house", alone with them, that adultery was being commited "against her" (Mk 10:11).  IOW, the wife being divorced was being sinned against.  To the Jews, the woman's status was never considered.  It was always her husband or her owner or her father, etc. who was being wronged, NOT the woman.  Her rights were not considered.  She was just someone else's property or wife or daughter.

These verses do not address the marriage that falls apart for whatever 'reason' and a couple gets divorced and then 5 years later one of them gets remarried.  That is NOT adultery.  Divorcing is sinful.  Having a sham of a marriage is sinful.  Not keeping your vow to your spouse and to God is sinful.  But the act of remarriage being adulterous is not accurately represented in the context of the scriptures we have been discussing.

boringoldguy

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Re: Marriage/Divorce/Remarriage: Why Are God's Anointed Silent?
« Reply #55 on: Mon Oct 09, 2006 - 11:49:15 »
Let's forget Richard for a while and just deal with Lester, Edith and Thelma.

Jesus said "if anybody divorces his wife and marries another . . .  ."      Marrying another is part of what Jesus said was adultery.   So where do you get that it's not wrong?    Jesus didn't separate the two events and say the divorce was adultery but the new marriage wasn't.   Why do you?

I know this is asked of HR, but I have an opinion.  ::smile::  This will also respond to Norm's post:

Note that this is just further proof, using your own criteria, that it is the act of remarriage that is adultery. ::tippinghat::

IMO, Jesus was teaching to be faithful to your spouse.  Marriage is sacred.  Don't treat it like it isn't.

In Matthew 5, the talk about divorce is sandwiched between prior verses about not lusting after someone and following verses about your vow.  You are not being faithful to your spouse by wishing in your heart that you could be with someone else.  That is described as adultery, too.  You do NOT have to marry someone else to commit adultery.  But, even if you do, the new marriage, in itself, is not what made it adultery.

In the account in Matthew 19 and the parallel account in Mark and also Luke,  Jesus explains to them the same message.....that God made marriage a holy union, something to be held sacred.  If you don't want your spouse anymore and you want womeone else, you can't just divorce them so you can get married to the other.  Moses made divorce possible because of their hardness, but you are just putting form over substance if you think it's OK to legally divorce someone in order to be free to marry someone else.

The disciples had a hard time with this evidently, but Jesus explained to them "in the house", alone with them, that adultery was being commited "against her" (Mk 10:11).  IOW, the wife being divorced was being sinned against.  To the Jews, the woman's status was never considered.  It was always her husband or her owner or her father, etc. who was being wronged, NOT the woman.  Her rights were not considered.  She was just someone else's property or wife or daughter.

These verses do not address the marriage that falls apart for whatever 'reason' and a couple gets divorced and then 5 years later one of them gets remarried.  That is NOT adultery.  Divorcing is sinful.  Having a sham of a marriage is sinful.  Not keeping your vow to your spouse and to God is sinful.  But the act of remarriage being adulterous is not accurately represented in the context of the scriptures we have been discussing.

The problem I'm having with this is that you (and HR) seem to be treating the second marriage as if it occurs in a vacuum.  But it doesn't.   It's all part of one sordid story,  and it's all wrong.

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Re: Marriage/Divorce/Remarriage: Why Are God's Anointed Silent?
« Reply #56 on: Mon Oct 09, 2006 - 11:55:23 »
Since you are assuming the "Markan priority", then you must be aware that the earliest renderings of Mark 10:12 says:
Quote
And if, putting away her husband, she should marry another, she commits adultery.

Note that this is just further proof, using your own criteria, that it is the act of remarriage that is adultery. ::tippinghat::

As I have said, divorcing and marrying are one and the same act in these verses. Not that one cannot be "divorced" on Tuesday and "married" on Friday, but that in the discussion, the second is assumed to be a natural follow on to the first because that's what the men were doing.

Keep in mind that the question being addressed is "How can we get rid of our wives?" It is assumed they are going to remarry. It is this line of reasoning that Jesus is addressing, the character of their hearts. He is not addressing a finite legal timeline nor is He trying to establish one.

What is interesting here is that Jesus raises women to the level of men - they are just as responsible for their actions as men are. Score one for women's rights!

And so we are at a point where divorce is OK, but getting married again isn't.

OK. And so....

on day two of the marriage, are the folks involved still committing adultery against their former partners?

Should local congregations require that second marriages be dissolved - even if the original marriages were ended for "Scriptural" reasons?

A caveat to the foregoing: The Markan passage has a change in locale. Apparently the disciples and Jesus move into a house where the discussion continues. It is in this second place that Jesus uses the "and marries another" phrases. And so, the question becomes, is He addressing two separate questions? Are there rules for Jewish leaders and rules for everyone else?

Or perhaps it is in the getting married again that we reveal our hearts in the matter? In the case of the Jewish leaders, I think that is true. They were getting divorced in order to marry someone else - willy nilly. They weren't getting rid of their wives because they were "really" unclean, but because the "uncleanness" provided an excuse so that they could marry someone else.

I believe it is the practice of divorcing and remarrying, as a matter of habit, that Jesus is addressing in all the discussions.

HRoberson

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Re: Marriage/Divorce/Remarriage: Why Are God's Anointed Silent?
« Reply #57 on: Tue Oct 10, 2006 - 14:39:16 »
Quote
The problem I'm having with this is that you (and HR) seem to be treating the second marriage as if it occurs in a vacuum.  But it doesn't.   It's all part of one sordid story,  and it's all wrong.

Actually I think we're saying that in the discussion, it isn't occuring in a vacuum. It is all part of one sordid story, and it's all wrong.

But the marriage is wrong because of the context of the discussion in Scripture, not because it is a marriage per se. In the context, I read the text to read something like "...divorces-his-wife-and-marries-another..." It's all one action, anticipated before hand by the Jewish man who seeks to divorce his wife (and marry another).


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Re: Marriage/Divorce/Remarriage: Why Are God's Anointed Silent?
« Reply #58 on: Tue Oct 10, 2006 - 15:07:03 »
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The problem I'm having with this is that you (and HR) seem to be treating the second marriage as if it occurs in a vacuum.  But it doesn't.   It's all part of one sordid story,  and it's all wrong.

Actually I think we're saying that in the discussion, it isn't occuring in a vacuum. It is all part of one sordid story, and it's all wrong.

But the marriage is wrong because of the context of the discussion in Scripture, not because it is a marriage per se. In the context, I read the text to read something like "...divorces-his-wife-and-marries-another..." It's all one action, anticipated before hand by the Jewish man who seeks to divorce his wife (and marry another).



Well now I'm good and confused,  because of your earlier post that said something like "No marriage is wrong, sex or no sex . . . "    My point all along has been that some marriages are wrong.

HRoberson

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Re: Marriage/Divorce/Remarriage: Why Are God's Anointed Silent?
« Reply #59 on: Tue Oct 10, 2006 - 16:27:19 »
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The problem I'm having with this is that you (and HR) seem to be treating the second marriage as if it occurs in a vacuum.  But it doesn't.   It's all part of one sordid story,  and it's all wrong.

Actually I think we're saying that in the discussion, it isn't occuring in a vacuum. It is all part of one sordid story, and it's all wrong.

But the marriage is wrong because of the context of the discussion in Scripture, not because it is a marriage per se. In the context, I read the text to read something like "...divorces-his-wife-and-marries-another..." It's all one action, anticipated before hand by the Jewish man who seeks to divorce his wife (and marry another).



Well now I'm good and confused,  because of your earlier post that said something like "No marriage is wrong, sex or no sex . . . "    My point all along has been that some marriages are wrong.

If the behavior is all one continuous action, the marriage isn't the issue, the divorce in order to get a young honey is. It's all one action; the marriage doesn't occur in a vacuum.

Are we talking past each other here?

HR

boringoldguy

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Re: Marriage/Divorce/Remarriage: Why Are God's Anointed Silent?
« Reply #60 on: Tue Oct 10, 2006 - 16:32:17 »
I think so.   It seems to me that the remarriage is as much the issue as is the divorce.

Offline Weeble

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Re: Marriage/Divorce/Remarriage: Why Are God's Anointed Silent?
« Reply #61 on: Tue Oct 10, 2006 - 22:58:08 »
The way I read it the divorce is not the issue but the remarriage.

Offline normfromga

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Re: Marriage/Divorce/Remarriage: Why Are God's Anointed Silent?
« Reply #62 on: Wed Oct 11, 2006 - 08:33:36 »


But the marriage is wrong because of the context of the discussion in Scripture, not because it is a marriage per se. In the context, I read the text to read something like "...divorces-his-wife-and-marries-another..." It's all one action, anticipated before hand by the Jewish man who seeks to divorce his wife (and marry another).


But, of course, from the only passages you insist we take seriously, Mark 10:11-12, divorce-and-remarriage is not all one action; "marry" is the only active verb leading to adultery in verse 12.

Personally I find it relatively shocking the direction this discussion takes.  If an homosexual tried to justify his/her lifestyle by claiming that the NT was silent concerning the practice, or that its mention was based on local customs/prejudices, or Jesus never condemned the practices, etc, etc, I think that the vocal majority would run his/her arguments into the ground.

However, here is an issue where Jesus and His Apostle, Paul, took strong stands, and members feel free to throw out two-thirds of the Gospel passages, cast doubt on the occurrence of the Sermon of the Mount, make "adultery" no longer a sexual sin, and otherwise twist the scripture [perhaps, to their own destruction (2 Peter 15-16)], all without hardly a whimper from the peanut gallery.

Again, this is why we are probably not hearing enough sermons on the subject:  too many "Hicks" in our pulpits. ::tippinghat::

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Re: Marriage/Divorce/Remarriage: Why Are God's Anointed Silent?
« Reply #63 on: Wed Oct 11, 2006 - 08:53:19 »
The preacher where I grew up summed up his view in the most succinct way I've yet heard.  When a sister asked him what he thought about remarrying after divorce he said, "If you leave you husband for any reason other than he's having an affair, don't ever ask me to perform the wedding."

I'm also surprised by the premise of the OP, that no one's talking about MDR.  If no one's been talking about, how's it been causing all the division that's been blamed on MDR in the CofC?  I know I've heard many sermons (at times, I thought too many, they seemed aimed at some person or another), read many articles, and been part of a town-wide ministerial initiative to encourage couples to seek premarital and marital counseling and guidance to prevent divorce.  Goodness, I attended a youth rally in TX that addressed the subject (in a harsh way, imho), so as wrong as I thought they were in prudence and interpretation, they certainly weren't silent.  Maybe it depends on what circles you run in?

The ministers and elders in the churches in this area of NY aren't silent either, and don't beat around the bush in approaching people they think are headed toward divorce.  So I don't relate much to the "why is everybody silent" thing.  Like I said, where I've been, I thought some folks needed to sit down and hush from time to time and stop beating people up so much.

Your mileage may, and apparently does, vary.

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Re: Marriage/Divorce/Remarriage: Why Are God's Anointed Silent?
« Reply #64 on: Wed Oct 11, 2006 - 10:26:14 »
I think so.   It seems to me that the remarriage is as much the issue as is the divorce.

The way I read it the divorce is not the issue but the remarriage.

I agree with HR.  In the context of the scriptures referenced, leaving one with the intentions of marrying another is the issue.  That action, divorcing and remarrying, is sinful.  Those motives make a sham of the holiness of marriage that God intended.

But the 2nd marriage is indeed a marriage.  And the same reverence for the sanctity of God's joining needs to be observed in that marriage as well.  That marriage, in itself, is not wrong.  But getting married under those circumstances is wrong, as is marrying for convenience sake, or marrying for money or any other sinful way of conniving circumstances to get one's way by getting married.  Those marriages are still marriages and should try to be salvaged.  A biblical answer is not to divorce again in order to fix things.

As for the original post:

I have not heard a sermon on the subject for a long, long time.  Most of the discussion and teaching has been in classes and small groups or to individuals.  I know it is needed.


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Re: Marriage/Divorce/Remarriage: Why Are God's Anointed Silent?
« Reply #65 on: Fri Jan 05, 2007 - 17:26:54 »
Hello everyone,

I'm new to this forum and have just posted an article that you will probably find interesting. Some will love it, others will hate it, but that's par for the course. It's a discourse on Matthew 19:1-9.  It's under Theology / Divorce and Remarriage, posted today, 1/5/07. I hope that you'll read it.

Blessings,
Sherman Nobles

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Re: Marriage/Divorce/Remarriage: Why Are God's Anointed Silent?
« Reply #66 on: Fri Jan 05, 2007 - 19:38:10 »
Just a thought -- next time someone advocates breaking up a marriage they feel ain't right, and trying to put a couple previously married back together after the ex-spouses have been with others --

God used to call that an abomination, similar wording to His condemnations of bestiality and baby-sacrificing.

Why would something God thought of as too nasty for words only a few thousand years ago be OK now?

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Re: Marriage/Divorce/Remarriage: Why Are God's Anointed Silent?
« Reply #67 on: Sat Feb 17, 2007 - 19:31:09 »
Just a thought -- next time someone advocates breaking up a marriage they feel ain't right, and trying to put a couple previously married back together after the ex-spouses have been with others --

God used to call that an abomination, similar wording to His condemnations of bestiality and baby-sacrificing.

Why would something God thought of as too nasty for words only a few thousand years ago be OK now?

Janine,

Those who promote such foolishness as breaking up families, preaching folks to abandon spouses and children have crossed the line to preaching the devil's doctrine.  You are correct that the Bible refers to such as an abomination.

If one is to properly interpret Jesus' words, one needs to first understand that Christ did not come to destroy Mosaic civil law, which governed these type of things.  Therefore, whatever interpretation one has regarding Jesus' words, they must be interpreted in light of the Mosaic law as given by God. 

In my assessment remarriage is not adultery; nor is divorce always sinful; albeit it can be, but much of the church is so anti-divorce that it has become anti-marriage and anti-family.  God hates sinful divorce, but He also hates a doctrine of devils that forbids marriage.

Frank

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Re: Marriage/Divorce/Remarriage: Why Are God's Anointed Silent?
« Reply #68 on: Wed Nov 19, 2008 - 20:26:46 »
Mandelee,

I appreciate that thought.  Divorce may be a symptom of a bigger problem.  Could it be the problem of disobedience?  Or what I believe, that many don't know that Jesus considers remarriage after a divorce adultery.

Only if there was no adultery or sexual immorality in the first marriage. if there was, then the innocent party is allowed to divorce and remarry.

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Re: Marriage/Divorce/Remarriage: Why Are God's Anointed Silent?
« Reply #69 on: Sat Sep 12, 2009 - 02:43:29 »
The proper word used in Rom 7:2 could be translated “bound of law