Author Topic: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling  (Read 31261 times)

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Offline sedux

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Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« on: Thu Jul 09, 2009 - 09:55:28 »
Scenario: If someone attends church that's so big that it's almost impossible to get any counseling from your church pastor(s) due to the high number of members, and you know of another pastor from a different church who has a smaller congregation and has more time to give you counseling, is it wrong to do that?  I've been told that if you have a "home" church, then your home church pastor is your shepherd because he would be held responsible for his "flock".  I've also been told that having another pastor give biblical counsel to you when you're not a member of his flock is wrong because he can give advice that may conflict with your home church pastor.  When I heard this, I can understand where they're coming from, but at the same time, I don't see where the harm is in seeking the counsel of many.  Why would it necessarily have to be from shepherds of the same flock?  Even if the counseling conflicted between pastors of different flocks should I not be the one to discern what to follow and/or consider instead of being denied the opportunity to hear what they have to say due to this confliction rule between flocks?


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Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« on: Thu Jul 09, 2009 - 09:55:28 »

HRoberson

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #1 on: Sat Jul 25, 2009 - 23:17:47 »
I wouldn't hook my wagon up to a pastor for counseling.

Find somebody that's trained to do it.

Offline lightshineon

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #2 on: Sat Jul 25, 2009 - 23:31:39 »
I wouldn't hook my wagon up to a pastor for counseling.

Find somebody that's trained to do it.

 I agree somewhat, unless the pastor has training in that area.

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #2 on: Sat Jul 25, 2009 - 23:31:39 »

Offline janine

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #3 on: Sun Jul 26, 2009 - 01:38:35 »
sedux, just the way you're asking the question makes you seem like a person who will slavishly and without careful thought follow whatever your preacher says.

This is not so, is it?

What do you mean by "counseling"?  What sort of counseling?  Do you mean, the type you would want from a person more spiritually mature, about matters of spiritual discernment?  Or do you need "regular" counseling and you simply want to get it from a Christian viewpoint?

Offline Taiven72

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #4 on: Mon Jul 27, 2009 - 05:01:52 »
I wouldn't hook my wagon up to a pastor for counseling.

Find somebody that's trained to do it.

I disagree with you. God's Word is more than sufficient for using in counseling. The pastor is trained to counsel.

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #4 on: Mon Jul 27, 2009 - 05:01:52 »



Offline Elaine

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #5 on: Mon Jul 27, 2009 - 22:10:00 »
Linda,

There's also another way to look at this.
 Just get help already.

What difference where it comes from?
Life is short - get help with whatever your issue is, so you can move out of any confusion and into clarity.
I'd go to a professional Christian Counselor --but pastors are free- go to whomever can see you first so you can resolve any issues holding you up from being confident and happy. Life is short.

Good luck to you,
:)Elaine


HRoberson

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #6 on: Tue Aug 25, 2009 - 22:08:21 »
I wouldn't hook my wagon up to a pastor for counseling.

Find somebody that's trained to do it.

I disagree with you. God's Word is more than sufficient for using in counseling. The pastor is trained to counsel.
ummm....yeah.  ::frown::

Offline stevehut

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #7 on: Tue Aug 25, 2009 - 22:10:01 »
Sedux, why should it need to be a pastor?

son of God

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #8 on: Sun Sep 27, 2009 - 20:23:52 »
The last post was spot on!

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #8 on: Sun Sep 27, 2009 - 20:23:52 »

HRoberson

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #9 on: Tue Sep 29, 2009 - 20:39:15 »
Scenario: If someone attends church that's so big that it's almost impossible to get any counseling from your church pastor(s) due to the high number of members, and you know of another pastor from a different church who has a smaller congregation and has more time to give you counseling, is it wrong to do that?  I've been told that if you have a "home" church, then your home church pastor is your shepherd because he would be held responsible for his "flock".  I've also been told that having another pastor give biblical counsel to you when you're not a member of his flock is wrong because he can give advice that may conflict with your home church pastor.  When I heard this, I can understand where they're coming from, but at the same time, I don't see where the harm is in seeking the counsel of many.  Why would it necessarily have to be from shepherds of the same flock?  Even if the counseling conflicted between pastors of different flocks should I not be the one to discern what to follow and/or consider instead of being denied the opportunity to hear what they have to say due to this confliction rule between flocks?
The other threads aren't overly interesting, so here goes.....

Here are some generalities for you:
a. you're allowed to talk with any person you'd like - any Christian you'd like - any pastor you'd like. I would recommend you use some pretty good discretion when making your decision.
b. there is some merit to seeking counseling from your pastor (assuming she knows what she's doing and is trained in providing the type of counseling you need - not necessarily the counseling you want). She is responsible for your soul, and she is likely well trained in the finer nuances of your denomination's theological dogma.
c. there is some merit in seeking counseling from any pastor that meets the criteria in b.

Bottom line: get good, appropriate counseling from competent and trained counselors, who can at least understand the world from your view.

Depending on your issue, I wouldn't recommend a pastor at all.
But that's your choice.

HRoberson

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #10 on: Tue Sep 29, 2009 - 20:42:42 »
I wouldn't hook my wagon up to a pastor for counseling.

Find somebody that's trained to do it.

I disagree with you. God's Word is more than sufficient for using in counseling. The pastor is trained to counsel.
The word of God is not sufficient for counseling, especially if wielded by a dogmatic idiot that is simply going to read a passage to you and then say "now, quit sinning," expecting that that should suffice.

A single - or even two - seminary classes on pastoral counseling does not a counselor make, and any pastor worth her salt would tell you the same. Those classes are simply designed to teach active listening skills and help you avoid being thrown in jail or shot by a jealous husband.

son of God

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #11 on: Tue Sep 29, 2009 - 21:14:05 »
(2Ti 3:16)  All Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

(2Ti 3:17)  that the man of God may be perfected, thoroughly furnished to every good work.


But then again, some don't believe that, either.

Offline Quinn

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #12 on: Tue Sep 29, 2009 - 22:06:31 »
I wouldn't hook my wagon up to a pastor for counseling.

The word of God is not sufficient for counseling, especially if wielded by a dogmatic idiot that is simply going to read a passage to you and then say "now, quit sinning," expecting that that should suffice.

No kidding. 

When I went to my minister about my husband's infidelity, he told me, "Go home and be a good wife."

Fortunately, he also realized he was in over his head, and gave me the name of a Christian Counseling center.  Saved my sanity.

Doc

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #13 on: Mon Oct 05, 2009 - 13:22:22 »
Scenario: If someone attends church that's so big that it's almost impossible to get any counseling from your church pastor(s) due to the high number of members, and you know of another pastor from a different church who has a smaller congregation and has more time to give you counseling, is it wrong to do that?  I've been told that if you have a "home" church, then your home church pastor is your shepherd because he would be held responsible for his "flock".  I've also been told that having another pastor give biblical counsel to you when you're not a member of his flock is wrong because he can give advice that may conflict with your home church pastor.  When I heard this, I can understand where they're coming from, but at the same time, I don't see where the harm is in seeking the counsel of many.  Why would it necessarily have to be from shepherds of the same flock?  Even if the counseling conflicted between pastors of different flocks should I not be the one to discern what to follow and/or consider instead of being denied the opportunity to hear what they have to say due to this confliction rule between flocks?



First, what is the issue and is your pastor trained and experienced in counseling such issues?  Just a general "pastoral" understanding of Scripture does not normally qualify a pastor to counsel serious issues related to mental illnesses, certain addictive behaviors, suicidal tendencies, just to name a few.  Even many pastors are not equipped to do marriage counseling when a marriage is on the verge of breaking up.  Knowing scripture is one thing, knowing how to apply scripture when dealing with serious behavioral issues is something altogether different. 

Having counseled biblically for more than 30 years, except under rare exceptions, I would not counsel a member of any church without first discussing the situation with that person's pastor.  There have been a few exceptions to this policy for me - but indeed they have been rare.  There are a number of reasons for this policy that may not be obvious at first glance.  But suffice it to say, this policy has improved the overall environment for helping someone seeking counseling outside their pastoral staff. 

Out of respect for your current pastoral staff, I would recommend you advise them of your intention to get help from another pastor - or counselor - and give them an opportunity to work with that other pastor - or counselor - to your benefit. 

I hope this has helped.  I will be more than happy to answer any further questions you may have.

BLESSINGS,

Doc
Ephesians 3:20








ex cathedra

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #14 on: Tue Nov 03, 2009 - 20:08:04 »
Go to one of the elders of the church and they should be able to give you the number of your denomination's youth and family services, if your church does not have enough pastors to pastor you.
You would want to go to a bible believing christian councelor would you not? OR AT LEAST ONE THAT WOULD NOT TRY TO TEAR YOUR FAITH APART WHILE COUNCILING YOU.

HRoberson

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #15 on: Sun Dec 20, 2009 - 23:27:37 »
(2Ti 3:16)  All Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

(2Ti 3:17)  that the man of God may be perfected, thoroughly furnished to every good work.


But then again, some don't believe that, either.
I don't think you read my entire post.
But then, not everyone does that either.

HRoberson

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #16 on: Sun Dec 20, 2009 - 23:36:28 »
Have you considered that there are many thousands of trained Christian counselors.  Some of them are also pastors, but all are in the ministry.

Traditionally, for thousands of years, Christians have sought counsel from those in the ministry.  Today it is possible to find trained counselors in the ministry.  There are directories at the http://NCCA.org and http://AACC.net   
I recommend caution when using referrals from either the NCCA or AACC.

For instance, the NCCA website implies they issue a license as a Christian Counselor. Unfortunately, that isn't the whole story. What they likely mean is that they will issue you a clergy license of some sort, but they cannot issue a national counseling license (like one held by your local counselor in the Yellow Pages), because there simply isn't one. Those professional licenses are handled by the individual states and none of them are going to recognize a "national counseling" license.

The AACC provides in-home training packages for folks that want to be lay counselors. These folks are not and cannot be licensed counselors either unless they in addition hold a state license.

Now this doesn't mean the folks to whom they will refer you are totally incompetent, but there really isn't any guarantees either organization can give you. So be careful and ask lots of questions.

Offline Joe Luna

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #17 on: Wed Dec 23, 2009 - 11:21:02 »
Quote
Scenario: If someone attends church that's so big that it's almost impossible to get any counseling from your church pastor(s) due to the high number of members, and you know of another pastor from a different church who has a smaller congregation and has more time to give you counseling, is it wrong to do that?  I've been told that if you have a "home" church, then your home church pastor is your shepherd because he would be held responsible for his "flock".  I've also been told that having another pastor give biblical counsel to you when you're not a member of his flock is wrong because he can give advice that may conflict with your home church pastor.  When I heard this, I can understand where they're coming from, but at the same time, I don't see where the harm is in seeking the counsel of many.  Why would it necessarily have to be from shepherds of the same flock?  Even if the counseling conflicted between pastors of different flocks should I not be the one to discern what to follow and/or consider instead of being denied the opportunity to hear what they have to say due to this confliction rule between flocks?

I think the underlying question here is,"Are you going against loyalties?"

From Bible perspective, as a flock grows, a pastor should be teaching and multiplying himself to care for the needs of that flock just like with Moses.

Be mindful and prayerful in who you go to for counseling. Go to God and the Bible and they will reveal your answers as you need them. There isn't a right or wrong answer here. As long as you're not going to someone who doesn't see from Biblical eyes and you're intentions line up with scripture, you can feel good about your choice.

Offline phoebe

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #18 on: Wed Dec 23, 2009 - 11:46:44 »
Have you considered that there are many thousands of trained Christian counselors.  Some of them are also pastors, but all are in the ministry.

Traditionally, for thousands of years, Christians have sought counsel from those in the ministry.  Today it is possible to find trained counselors in the ministry.  There are directories at the http://NCCA.org and http://AACC.net   
I recommend caution when using referrals from either the NCCA or AACC.

For instance, the NCCA website implies they issue a license as a Christian Counselor. Unfortunately, that isn't the whole story. What they likely mean is that they will issue you a clergy license of some sort, but they cannot issue a national counseling license (like one held by your local counselor in the Yellow Pages), because there simply isn't one. Those professional licenses are handled by the individual states and none of them are going to recognize a "national counseling" license.

The AACC provides in-home training packages for folks that want to be lay counselors. These folks are not and cannot be licensed counselors either unless they in addition hold a state license.

Now this doesn't mean the folks to whom they will refer you are totally incompetent, but there really isn't any guarantees either organization can give you. So be careful and ask lots of questions.



You are quite mistaken about your understanding of the NCCA.  They do not issue clergy licenses.  You must have a PhD in pastoral counseling to be licensed as a counselor, as well as insurance.  Continuing education is also required.

Some states do not recognize it because it is Christ-centered counseling, and they do not believe that religion/spirituality and counseling should be mixed.  A state-licensed counselor is limited in Christian counseling, whether they acknowledge it or not.  They can lose that license if the counseling is Christ-centered. 

You should know these things before you publicly criticize them.

You should always ask lots of questions regarding ANY counselor, no matter his degree or reference.


HRoberson

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #19 on: Sun Dec 27, 2009 - 12:11:04 »
Have you considered that there are many thousands of trained Christian counselors.  Some of them are also pastors, but all are in the ministry.

Traditionally, for thousands of years, Christians have sought counsel from those in the ministry.  Today it is possible to find trained counselors in the ministry.  There are directories at the http://NCCA.org and http://AACC.net   
I recommend caution when using referrals from either the NCCA or AACC.

For instance, the NCCA website implies they issue a license as a Christian Counselor. Unfortunately, that isn't the whole story. What they likely mean is that they will issue you a clergy license of some sort, but they cannot issue a national counseling license (like one held by your local counselor in the Yellow Pages), because there simply isn't one. Those professional licenses are handled by the individual states and none of them are going to recognize a "national counseling" license.

The AACC provides in-home training packages for folks that want to be lay counselors. These folks are not and cannot be licensed counselors either unless they in addition hold a state license.

Now this doesn't mean the folks to whom they will refer you are totally incompetent, but there really isn't any guarantees either organization can give you. So be careful and ask lots of questions.



You are quite mistaken about your understanding of the NCCA.  They do not issue clergy licenses.  You must have a PhD in pastoral counseling to be licensed as a counselor, as well as insurance.  Continuing education is also required.

Some states do not recognize it because it is Christ-centered counseling, and they do not believe that religion/spirituality and counseling should be mixed.  A state-licensed counselor is limited in Christian counseling, whether they acknowledge it or not.  They can lose that license if the counseling is Christ-centered. 

You should know these things before you publicly criticize them.

You should always ask lots of questions regarding ANY counselor, no matter his degree or reference.


I probably understand therapist licensing better than you do. I am one.
My point was that they cannot issue a national counseling license. Licensing for therapists are issued by states, not a (presumably) national private organization. Every state licenses counselors or MFTs, and some license other forms of therapists (e.g., pastoral therapists).
No therapist will lose their license for using Christian approaches or beliefs in their counseling as long as they meet the other legal requirements of holding a license.

Offline phoebe

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #20 on: Sun Dec 27, 2009 - 13:45:13 »
I probably understand therapist licensing better than you do. I am one.
My point was that they cannot issue a national counseling license. Licensing for therapists are issued by states, not a (presumably) national private organization. Every state licenses counselors or MFTs, and some license other forms of therapists (e.g., pastoral therapists).
No therapist will lose their license for using Christian approaches or beliefs in their counseling as long as they meet the other legal requirements of holding a license.

Gee, maybe not.  My husband is one.  And he's too busy with patients to spend on internet forums.

Maybe the state you are in allows for Christ-centered counseling.  The states we have been in do not.  But you didn't say "Christ-centered counseling", did you?  Only that you can use "Christian approaches or beliefs in their counseling as long as they meet the other legal requirements of holding a license."  Thank you for that clarification.  You're not a licensed Christian counselor.

Sorry to reply tartly, but you came off with license snobery and false information re:NCCA.  Couldn't let it pass w/o challenging you on it.



HRoberson

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #21 on: Mon Dec 28, 2009 - 00:19:04 »
The critical point is that your husband is one. You aren't.

I'm glad your husband has more clients than he can shake a stick at. All of the therapists I supervise do.

If an applicant shows up for a job and offers a "license" from the NCCA, they won't get the job. It's quite simple, actually - there are no national licenses recognized by the states. Even the federal government doesn't issue a license, but rather requires their therapists to be licensed by a state prior to being hired by the VA or the DoD.

An NCCA piece of paper won't work. Even if it says "license" on it.

Check their website.

Offline phoebe

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #22 on: Mon Dec 28, 2009 - 08:37:29 »
"Critical point"?  You think I don't know what my husband does, why, or how?  Please.

One can possess another license, in addition to the NCCA license, Mr. Roberson.  It is true the state does not recognize it.  That does not make in invalid or of lesser quality.  Some insurance companies recognize it.  Some courts recognize it.  My husband prefers the freedom of counseling Christ's way than trying to counsel with one arm tied behind his back as with a state license. 

I did not say he had "more clients than he can shake a stick at".  That's a butt-head statement.  I used to have great respect for you.  No more.

My husband isn't in it for the money.  He's actually in it to help people.


HRoberson

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #23 on: Mon Dec 28, 2009 - 18:42:14 »
You still become very defensive when someone disagrees with you...what's up with that?

I'm not sure how your husband's motivation came up, but I'm glad he likes to help people - as though others only care about the money.

I do question though, whether you know as much about the counseling profession as you seem to think you do. I would recommend that you read closely the NCCA website. You will find...

--they make a distinction between state licensure and the NCCA "license."

--they view their "license" as a "sacred" office, much like any preaching license.

--the schools that provide their training can receive education assistance through "large companies," churches, and state rehabilitation departments. Conspicuously absent from this list is the US Department of Education. This is significant in that the schools probably aren't credentialed by widely recognized accrediting organizations such as those that accredit your state university.

--their code of ethics makes it clear that their members should only refer to themselves as pastoral, clergy, or Biblical counselors. This is because they must make the distinction between therapists that their states license and the NCCA "license." This warning however is not sufficient, since some states actually license "pastoral counselors" and the NCCA license won't fly (as a counseling license) in those states. One such state is Tennessee, which does recognize the AAPC as a legitimate organization to "vouch" for therapists but not the NCCA. But even in Tennessee, a real, state license is required before you can call yourself a "pastoral counselor."

It is clear that the NCCA license is merely a version of a minister's license, and is not a counseling license - if it is even that..

I don't doubt that your husband knows something about counseling and Scripture and that he helps lots of folks.

I have simply observed that an NCCA "license" isn't and should not be confused with a state-issued professional counseling license. I remain convinced, especially after re-reviewing the NCCA site, that anyone seeking counseling - Christian, professional, or any other - should be very careful about who they're seeing, and that having a "license" on the wall doesn't really mean anything.

The "other" Christian counseling organization (AACC) is much more circumspect about what they offer their students, and they make no assertions about "licensing" Christian counselors. They do that because their officers know the difference in connotation between "license" and "certification" in the counseling world. They do offer trainings for lay counselors but they insist that that is what their students remain unless they have a state-issued license.

The professional organization for those who want to be really licensed pastoral counselors is the American Association of Pastoral Counselors (AAPC). If a potential client wants a pastoral counselor, they should look for one who is a member of, or who generally meets the credentialing requirements of the AAPC.

I'm sure the NCCA are nice folks who love God and want to help their clients, but that does not change the realities of the NCCA "license."

I haven't found having a state license to be the equivalent of counseling with one hand tied behind my back and I don't really expect to ever have that occur. This despite my using the Bible in session with appropriate clients, and assigning personal retreats, prayer, and spiritual disciplines as homework.

Whether I am a licensed Christian counselor or not isn't really up to you to decide. If you have read my posts along these lines then you know that my definition of a licensed Christian counselor is someone who is a (state-) licensed therapist, who in addition to their counseling graduate degree also has graduate work in Bible/theology/ministry. I don't require someone to have a piece of paper that reads "Licensed Christian Counselor" because as far as I know, the NCCA is the only people that issue those. And we know what concerns I have about them even though they're nice Christians, I'm sure.

So I'm thinking your definition of Christian Counselor is a bit narrow, and your knowledge concerning the counseling profession is not as complete as you think it is.

Love ya,



HRoberson

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #24 on: Mon Dec 28, 2009 - 23:23:21 »
Have you considered that there are many thousands of trained Christian counselors.  Some of them are also pastors, but all are in the ministry.
This is why I think the NCCA "license" is actually a ministry license, just like some denominations provide their preachers. The expectation is that the state in which you are in will not interfere with a "pastor" counseling their "flock."

Quote
Traditionally, for thousands of years, Christians have sought counsel from those in the ministry.  Today it is possible to find trained counselors in the ministry.  There are directories at the http://NCCA.org and http://AACC.net  
I recommend caution when using referrals from either the NCCA or AACC.

For instance, the NCCA website implies they issue a license as a Christian Counselor. Unfortunately, that isn't the whole story. What they likely mean is that they will issue you a clergy license of some sort, but they cannot issue a national counseling license (like one held by your local counselor in the Yellow Pages), because there simply isn't one. Those professional licenses are handled by the individual states and none of them are going to recognize a "national counseling" license.

The AACC provides in-home training packages for folks that want to be lay counselors. These folks are not and cannot be licensed counselors either unless they in addition hold a state license.

Now this doesn't mean the folks to whom they will refer you are totally incompetent, but there really isn't any guarantees either organization can give you. So be careful and ask lots of questions.



Quote
You are quite mistaken about your understanding of the NCCA.  They do not issue clergy licenses.
They don't call their licenses that, but that's effectively what they issue. I suspect that to be the case because they don't say you will be qualified to provide professional counseling, but that you might be able to open a counseling ministry. They also say, when answering the question "can I accept remuneration?" that you probably could because states exempt clergy from having to be state licensed. Apparently they know what they're offering and that it isn't a professional counseling license.

Quote
You must have a PhD in pastoral counseling to be licensed as a counselor,
Their website says you can't be licensed without a BA degree. They do not say that you have to have a Ph.D. to be licensed.  If you elect to enroll, they will offer you a package that combines "licensure, bachelors, and masters" degrees, or "licensure and masters." There is no stated expectation that one must have a doctorate degree to get their "license."

Quote
Some states do not recognize it because it is Christ-centered counseling, and they do not believe that religion/spirituality and counseling should be mixed.

Actually, states don't recognize it because they don't issue it, it's based on education from (likely) non-accredited schools, and the issuing entity makes it clear that they aren't making professional counselors but "ministers" who counsel. Do you have a list of states that actually recognize the "license" for anything other than church-based counseling?

Quote
A state-licensed counselor is limited in Christian counseling, whether they acknowledge it or not.  They can lose that license if the counseling is Christ-centered.
Actually, spirituality (including Christian approaches and Biblical counseling among others) is a valid part of professional counseling and you're not going to lose your license for including it. You may well lose your license if you don't pay attention to your client, don't use effective approaches, or simply recite Scripture in session - or try to convert your Buddhist client.  

Quote
You should know these things before you publicly criticize them.

Yes you should.

Quote
You should always ask lots of questions regarding ANY counselor, no matter his degree or reference.
Especially if the "license" is issued by a non-governmental agency, based on education from non-accredited institutions.

HRoberson

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #25 on: Tue Dec 29, 2009 - 00:20:08 »
Here are the schools associated with the NCCA program.

# Andersonville Theological Seminary
# Calvary Theological Seminary (AA and BA only)
# Central Christian University
# Chesapeake Bible College & Seminary
# Colorado Theological Seminary
# Cornerstone University
# Family Bible Institute, College & Seminary
# Jacksonville Theological Seminary
# Pillsbury College & Seminary

The number of the above schools regionally accredited in the US: 1 (and it only offers Bachelors degrees in two areas that apply to this discussion: social work, and psychology. They also offer Bachelors degrees in Youth Ministry. Since they don't offer Masters degrees, you're going to have to attend one of the other quality schools to get your license.)

Here's a Wiki article on one of the accrediting bodies associated with at least two of the schools listed above. It's a Wiki article, so take it with that understanding.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accrediting_Commission_International

Interesting to say the least.

Here's a link to one of the "schools" from which you can get your education:
http://www.rmcm.org/ (this is the location from which I got the list of schools above, and I suppose then, that this would be another source of education.)
It is interesting that the director of the school has his credentials from the NCCA. It is further interesting that they don't list their faculty but simply describe their positions as Adjunct Professor or Certified Instructor. Want to know who your instructors are going to be before you enroll? You're not going to find them on this site.

Even more interesting, no?

Isn't the internet wonderful?
« Last Edit: Sun Jan 03, 2010 - 00:30:10 by HRoberson »

HRoberson

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #26 on: Tue Dec 29, 2009 - 01:11:25 »
For those who are interested in professional organizations for licensed Christian counselors, here are three:

American Association of Christian Counselors
Christian Association for Psychological Studies
American Association of Pastoral Counselors

None of these organizations offer "licenses" that aren't recognized by states.
None of these organizations offer licenses based on education at a limited number of schools - all of whom are not regionally accredited to offer masters degrees.
None of these organizations urge their licensed members to refer to themselves as "clergy" in order to accept remuneration.

son of God

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #27 on: Tue Dec 29, 2009 - 01:48:03 »
Informative and well done, HR.

Offline phoebe

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #28 on: Tue Dec 29, 2009 - 09:44:08 »
Me thinks you have gotten too big for your britches, Mr. Roberson.  Trying to psychoanalyze me makes you feel bigger, better, does it?

For the record, my husband IS "clergy", and doesn't claim the title for income.  He is both a part-time paid preaching minister and a full-time paid hospital chaplain and hospice chaplain.  He obtained the license to help people, not to earn a fat living.  (Care to reveal your annual salary?)

I'll not continue this conversation with you.  It contains lies, is harmful and slanderous.  Anyone who depends on Wiki for proof...  And spends time trying to discredit others who dedicate their lives to helping others...  Do you actually even personally know anyone with an NCCA license?

It's license snobbery.  Think what you wish if it pumps you up. 

I'm done.

HRoberson

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #29 on: Tue Dec 29, 2009 - 14:23:14 »
Me thinks you have gotten too big for your britches, Mr. Roberson.  Trying to psychoanalyze me makes you feel bigger, better, does it?
See...there you go again, almost right on cue. I haven't psychoanalyzed you; I've simply observed repetitive behavior.

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For the record, my husband IS "clergy", and doesn't claim the title for income.  He is both a part-time paid preaching minister and a full-time paid hospital chaplain and hospice chaplain.
I am at a loss to understand why you keep bringing up your husband. This discussion isn't about him, is it?

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He obtained the license to help people, not to earn a fat living.
Good for him.  

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(Care to reveal your annual salary?)
Since you didn't reveal yours, no. This is another topic you keep bringing up. This discussion isn't about income, is it?

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I'll not continue this conversation with you.

Your choice, but I doubt it.

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It contains lies,
Demonstrate three lies I've uttered - or are we talking about you and your "you have to have a Ph.D. to be a pastoral counselor?" Or maybe your "you're not a Christian counselor." or maybe your "my husband is one." or even maybe your "..some states don't recognize it because....they do not believe that religion/spirituality and counseling should be mixed. "

All of which are either demonstrably incorrect, or don't tell the whole truth so as to leave an impression that isn't warranted.

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is harmful and slanderous.
Demonstrate how I've done this - or again, are you  talking about you?  

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Anyone who depends on Wiki for proof...
I made specific mention that I used a Wiki article and said 'take it for what it's worth.' Perhaps you missed that disclaimer while you were seeing red again. In any event, the article provided sufficient information that if you wanted to run the assertions to ground, you could easily do so. Did you, or did you simply object to Wiki? Do I need to do more of the research you should do, or do you think you could handle that on your own?

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And spends time trying to discredit others who dedicate their lives to helping others...
So...this is about your husband. That explains quite a lot actually - all this defensiveness. I've never talked about your husband other than to say that I think he does a good work. What I have said about the NCCA is that their license isn't recognized as a license by any state, and that the schools they choose to include in their "approved" list aren't accredited to the same level as "regular" degree-granting institutions and programs. Those two basic assertions seem to really chap your [skin].

Is this one of your slanderous comments?

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Do you actually even personally know anyone with an NCCA license?
Why do you keep making this personal? This discussion is about the NCCA "license" and what it actually means. Just because your husband has given some of his (read: your) not-quite-fat income to them for his "license" is quite irrelevant to the discussion of the license itself. This discussion isn't about whether people are good people or whether they're trying to do good things.

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It's license snobbery.
More defensiveness. The simple fact is that the NCCA "license" isn't equivalent to a state-issued counseling license, the NCCA knows that, and in continuing to call their paper a "license" they distinguish themselves from other certifying bodies who have limited themselves to offering certifications.  

...or maybe this is one of your slanderous comments?

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Think what you wish if it pumps you up.
My, my.

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I'm done.
I doubt it.

Luv ya anyway
« Last Edit: Sun Jan 03, 2010 - 00:12:45 by HRoberson »

HRoberson

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #30 on: Tue Dec 29, 2009 - 23:11:54 »
Some interesting observations for those who might want to be "clergy counselors," simply for your perusal.....

While it is generally assumed that clergy can counsel whoever they want without an appropriate state license, that assumption is not quite cut and dried. Some states limit clergy counseling to members of their denominations, or in some cases, their congregations. Practicing counseling outside of those parameters becomes counseling and requires a state license.

Some states (e.g., Tennessee) actually license Pastoral Counselors and so you would want to be somewhat careful about what you call yourself, and what the limits of clergy pastors are.

States can protect the counseling profession within their boundaries by limiting the use of particular titles (e.g., Marriage Therapist), or the practice of counseling (defining the behaviors that are protected rather than the title). Some states protect both the title and the practice of counseling as they become aware of people who try to skirt the law by using different titles or attempt to hide behind other professions that are generally exempt from licensure.

Usually the behaviors protected include diagnosing mental disorders, using mental health interventions, and similar behaviors that generally define counseling. Generally speaking there are several large exceptions to the definition of counseling but your state may be different. In general, education and skills development not associated with a mental health diagnosis can be done by just about anyone that wants to do it. Included under this category, generally, are parenting skills, communication skills, spiritual direction, sexual techniques, social skills, anger management, general grief interventions, and the like.

So, while clergy are normally exempted from licensing laws concerning counseling, their ability to practice counseling as a money-collecting "ministry" may be severely limited and put those who do so at considerable risk. State laws vary and therefore unlicensed clergy counselors should know what the requirements and prohibitions of their state are.

This is where organizations such as AACC can be beneficial in that they offer relatively inexpensive and somewhat comprehensive training programs for lay counselors. However, just because someone has completed such a training program does not make them competent to implement that training with any sort of competence.

Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #31 on: Tue Dec 29, 2009 - 23:22:21 »
However, just because someone has completed such a training program does not make them competent to implement that training with any sort of competence.

You could say that about folks with the best training possible, whether that be a Christian training program or the finest University.

HRoberson

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #32 on: Wed Dec 30, 2009 - 09:00:17 »
However, just because someone has completed such a training program does not make them competent to implement that training with any sort of competence.

You could say that about folks with the best training possible, whether that be a Christian training program or the finest University.
Well yes - the caution is appropriate to all professions from preachers to physicists I suppose. My point though was that if we're going to let someone teach us couples skills, you will want to know if their entire training consists of a twenty hour at home video training program. If it does, we might want to ask a few more questions before we open ourselves to them.

NOTE: I am not and have not tried to make a distinction between "Christian" training and the "finest university" training.  There are well accredited Christian universities that provide good training. Nor am I suggesting that the AACC training packages are worthless. For lay counselors who will have additional face to face training and supervision, they're probably adequate for what they are designed to do.

Nor do I question the good hearts and intentions of members of NCCA. My observations are limited to acknowledging that states license counselors, and that the training required of NCCA is generally provided by institutions not accredited by the Department of Education.

It may well be that the training received is comparable to that found in accredited institutions, but the schools and training programs are not accredited by one of the two main accrediting organizations in the US. In any event, if you are looking for a "licensed therapist," and the piece of paper on the wall says "NCCA," chances are pretty good that the person with whom you are speaking is not licensed by your state to counsel. They might be, but in the case of Agape Counseling of Washington, four of the five are not, and at least two (or was it three) make no pretenses of having graduate degrees in counseling.

So ask.
« Last Edit: Thu Jan 07, 2010 - 00:03:01 by HRoberson »

Offline Cally

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #33 on: Thu Dec 31, 2009 - 00:24:59 »
Oh wow. Attack of the red tape!  ::eek::

I've been looking for this sort of info for my information, so I'll keep an eye on HR's notes here for that--I appreciate the info.

HRoberson

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #34 on: Sun Jan 03, 2010 - 15:39:38 »
The best thing to do is read your state's requirements. They can be found in two places - the actual law that governs what you are trying to do, and if your state licenses what you want to do, the rules promulgated by your profession's state board.

If there exists a national or state association for your profession, they could likely provide additional "behind the scenes" information for you as well as guidance.