Author Topic: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling  (Read 31376 times)

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Offline Cally

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #70 on: Wed Feb 17, 2010 - 15:30:52 »
H R  what about all the other small places throughout the world who don't have qualified counsellors with all the letters behind there name

They just have to step up to the mark and get the job done    untrained people who have just been with Jesus

lets be real    not everyone who comes for advice needs 25 sessions on a couch    I have seen it been done in about a couple of minutes when the power of God came upon them and they were delivered of that demon

that is what we are missing within the body of Christ    Raw power to cast out devils

and then there are some who do need ongoing help with some one who can put up with them

are most problems with people who need counseling just a result of not obeying the word of God?







Obviously it's just a matter of who you trust.

I've always heard the term "ordained minister" for instance, but "ordained" by who? Somebody I know?

Oh that's right. I'm just supposed to think "Somebody out there that I'm supposed to think is great, that I've never met, also says that this guy is great. No problem: he's a great guy."

Determining one crowd's credibility from another can get kind of tiresome.  ::sleepingsoundly::

I've been to a few counselors in my time and always walked out amazed, "how many years of 'professional' training was that?" It always ultimately seemed pretty darn armchair to me.

But I always remember, no matter how high up someone seems to be with titles or the like, it's ultimately the lay people that hold up all of that credibility from the inside out--without people who have no credibility, the ones who do have credibility (I'm talking about it in terms of red tape, of course) wouldn't have any.

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #70 on: Wed Feb 17, 2010 - 15:30:52 »

bemark

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #71 on: Wed Feb 17, 2010 - 23:20:27 »
The vast majority of people don't need "counseling" at all. That isn't my point.

My point is limited to the discussion of a "license" purported to be a counseling license, but which is in these cases based on limited training, degrees from schools the students never attended, and primarily focused on one man's many organizations and philosophies.

If your bartender can provide you counsel, that's great; I just don't want him advertising as a "licensed counselor" of any sort, sporting a degree from an institution that isn't accredited by first tier accrediting organizations.

If you want to use an NCCA counselor, by all means do so. You need to know though just what their education and license are based upon.

I'm sure NCCA counselors are nice people who want to do good work. I simply think you and they need to know what you aren't getting by visiting them.
fair enough

and cant help but think that you are right , with most people don't need that kind of in depth counselling from a highly trained professional

I have found the best advice coming from Fathers and mothers within the body of Christ who have walked the miles before and have the scars to prove it   man,  they have good sound advice  and they don't even have a degree   only life's experiences  and the word of God

 14 Where there is no counsel, the people fall;
      But in the multitude of counselors there is safety.

and most screwed up people,  are ones who have been screwed up by a screwed up person.

And another crazy thing is when the movie stars take there pet turtle or Goldfish to a shrink   now that is just plain wrong      How screwed up is that?



« Last Edit: Wed Feb 17, 2010 - 23:51:31 by bemark »

bemark

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #72 on: Thu Feb 18, 2010 - 05:26:58 »
H R  what about all the other small places throughout the world who don't have qualified counsellors with all the letters behind there name

They just have to step up to the mark and get the job done    untrained people who have just been with Jesus

lets be real    not everyone who comes for advice needs 25 sessions on a couch    I have seen it been done in about a couple of minutes when the power of God came upon them and they were delivered of that demon

that is what we are missing within the body of Christ    Raw power to cast out devils

and then there are some who do need ongoing help with some one who can put up with them

are most problems with people who need counseling just a result of not obeying the word of God?







Obviously it's just a matter of who you trust.

I've always heard the term "ordained minister" for instance, but "ordained" by who? Somebody I know?

Oh that's right. I'm just supposed to think "Somebody out there that I'm supposed to think is great, that I've never met, also says that this guy is great. No problem: he's a great guy."

Determining one crowd's credibility from another can get kind of tiresome.  ::sleepingsoundly::

I've been to a few counselors in my time and always walked out amazed, "how many years of 'professional' training was that?" It always ultimately seemed pretty darn armchair to me.

But I always remember, no matter how high up someone seems to be with titles or the like, it's ultimately the lay people that hold up all of that credibility from the inside out--without people who have no credibility, the ones who do have credibility (I'm talking about it in terms of red tape, of course) wouldn't have any.
well it is a matter of who you can trust all right    especially when you are hanging out your dirty laundry

I think most,  if not all problems can be sorted out by the word of God and by the Power and Glory of his Spirit   

Most cases are about offenses and lack of forgiveness

Matthew 18

Jesus Warns of Offenses
   
6 “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes!
8 “If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.

The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant
   
21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #72 on: Thu Feb 18, 2010 - 05:26:58 »

bemark

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #73 on: Thu Feb 18, 2010 - 05:39:05 »
H R   have you seen Madea goes to jail     Dr Phil is on there and it is just funny funny funny

Small | Large
« Last Edit: Thu Feb 18, 2010 - 05:55:02 by bemark »

HRoberson

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #74 on: Thu Feb 18, 2010 - 13:41:11 »
It occurs to me that Christian counseling should involve something other than counseling. Here is the link to a listing of the NCCA curriculum for Christian Counselors:

http://www.pillsburycs.org/christian-counseling-psychology-ncca-curriculum.shtml

Yes, there is a plethora of counseling courses. What seems to be missing is any over-arching Christian perspective course. Where do these Christian counselors get instruction about God, people, life purpose, or any other systematic Christian principles?

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #74 on: Thu Feb 18, 2010 - 13:41:11 »



Offline dcg123

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #75 on: Fri Feb 19, 2010 - 22:08:17 »
Jesus is the best counselor.  1 John 2:27

HRoberson

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #76 on: Sat Feb 20, 2010 - 21:10:41 »
He's also the best preacher. So what?

Offline comfy

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #77 on: Sun Mar 07, 2010 - 15:30:35 »
Hi, Sedux . . . you wrote:
Quote
If someone attends church that's so big that it's almost impossible to get any counseling from your church pastor(s) due to the high number of members, and you know of another pastor from a different church who has a smaller congregation and has more time to give you counseling, is it wrong to do that?
The Bible is very clear about who is to be trusted to take "care of the church of God". You might look at the qualifications given in 1 Timothy 3:1-10.

And we have, for those whom God has appointed, "nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3) So, we need to have pastors who are our *examples*. We need to know our exampels, personally, I would say, so we can feed on their example of how they have learned how to make their marriages work and bring up their children. And their real-life example can counsel us, along with the scriptures God has them feed us. We need to share with people whom God has living His meaning of the scriptures. Just being told is not enough.

So, if you do not have this personal involvement with ones leading in your church, this might answer your question. Or, you need to get connected better, where you are, so you can have real-life example leadership.

Offline RACE

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #78 on: Tue Aug 10, 2010 - 14:35:57 »
The answer is simple, follow the dictates of your own conscience. Your conscience is above any man. No one has the right to override the conscience. A lot of times some pastors will try to compete. God bless ::smile::

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #78 on: Tue Aug 10, 2010 - 14:35:57 »

Offline John T

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #79 on: Sat Sep 18, 2010 - 23:50:10 »
I wouldn't hook my wagon up to a pastor for counseling.

Find somebody that's trained to do it.

Unwarranted assumption.

Most evangelical seminaries teach counseling.  For long term counseling, OF COURSE see a trained professional, bit never discount the wisdom given from Holy Spirit to a diligent man of God to find the answer quickly.

The good  pastor knows when he is over his head, and will refer the person to a pre-screened Christian counselor. I have had that happen both ways.

Visionary

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #80 on: Sun Sep 19, 2010 - 22:29:05 »
Sedux. I want to share with you the very first message I received from the Holy Spirit just days after being saved.
I walked into a dairy barn. In a section of the barn closed off by a split door. The top door was open and I looked in. I saw a number of Holstein all tied in their stalls standing in milk up to there bellies. Then behind me a man said, give me a drink! I looked at him and said, I do not have a cup.
He said, Look. I looked on the frame of the door and there on a nail was a cup. I took the cup and went to dip it in the milk but when I went to do so I saw that the cattle had defiled it with their feces.
Disappointed, I turned to the man and said, I cannot give you a drink.
Jesus promised to give YOU the Holy Spirit to lead you into all truth. 1 John 2:27 ...the anointing teaches you all things...
So if you must ask a man for counsel be sure that you search the scriptures to see what he says is true.

HRoberson

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #81 on: Tue Sep 21, 2010 - 23:38:50 »
I wouldn't hook my wagon up to a pastor for counseling.

Find somebody that's trained to do it.

Unwarranted assumption.
It's not an assumption.

Quote
Most evangelical seminaries teach counseling.  For long term counseling, OF COURSE see a trained professional, bit never discount the wisdom given from Holy Spirit to a diligent man of God to find the answer quickly.

The good  pastor knows when he is over his head, and will refer the person to a pre-screened Christian counselor. I have had that happen both ways.
You are correct that most seminaries teach "counseling." One course.

Now, it is also true that one can get an MDiv or DMin in counseling, but those are not the "standard" tracks. But if you can get a graduate or doctoral degree from an accredited institution recognized and not negatively sanctioned by the Department of Education, cool. Denver Seminary would be one. The NCCC and it's affiliates are (in the vast majority of cases) not.

You do need to ask, and you should require a degree program that isn't limited to Bible reading.

But I still wouldn't hook my wagon to a pastor for most emotional issues requiring counseling.

You're always welcome to bend your pastor's ear though.

Offline John T

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Unwarranted Hubris
« Reply #82 on: Wed Sep 22, 2010 - 10:22:55 »
Quote
Quote

I wouldn't hook my wagon up to a pastor for counseling.

Find somebody that's trained to do it.

Unwarranted assumption.
It's not an assumption.


An assumption is a statement without supporting data. You have not supplied any supporting data, therefore your statement is an unwarranted assumption BY DEFINITION.

Quote
Quote
Most evangelical seminaries teach counseling.  For long term counseling, OF COURSE see a trained professional, bit never discount the wisdom given from Holy Spirit to a diligent man of God to find the answer quickly.

The good  pastor knows when he is over his head, and will refer the person to a pre-screened Christian counselor. I have had that happen both ways.
You are correct that most seminaries teach "counseling." One course.

Another unwarranted assumption. When have you last checked the catalog of any major seminary? there are whole departments dedicated to counseling.

Quote
Now, it is also true that one can get an MDiv or DMin in counseling, but those are not the "standard" tracks. But if you can get a graduate or doctoral degree from an accredited institution recognized and not negatively sanctioned by the Department of Education, cool. Denver Seminary would be one. The NCCC and it's affiliates are (in the vast majority of cases) not.

There are no standard tracks for advanced degrees, for they are different than undergraduate degrees. Ergo, another (sigh) unwarranted assumption. That the NCCC is not accredited  by any state, regional or national accrediting agency, other than itself, nor is it recognized by any degree-granting institution as sufficient for the fulfillment of one of its degrees is a MAJOR indication of where your NCCC stands vis-a-vis academic degrees.

Quote
You do need to ask, and you should require a degree program that isn't limited to Bible reading.
I have no idea of what you are referring to here, but one of my teachers at Christian Counseling Center near Westminster Seminary was  PhD from Stonybrook. He thoroughly embraced the Neuthetic Counseling as taught by Jay Adams and his associates.

Quote
But I still wouldn't hook my wagon to a pastor for most emotional issues requiring counseling.

And I would not trust anyone not trained in the sciences behind counseling. Yours is a "one note johnny" approach whereby everything is filtered through an 'emotional assessment" of dubious clinical value.

Quote
You're always welcome to bend your pastor's ear though.

For you to equate Biblical counseling with "bending a pastor's ear" is indeed unwarranted hubris because you seem to be elevating yourself, and devaluing pastors simultaneously.
That reeks of sulfur.

In reality, you most likely do have some successes in counseling, and I am happy for that, and of course for your client. The reason being is that as one who strongly believes in the gifts being given to men and women in the church to edify the believers, Holy Spirit can use any of us, and sometimes use us despite any baggage we have, or bring to the counseling mellieu.  That is because everything we have, including our education is through the grace and mercy of God. And we are poor stewards of those precious gifts if we do not use them to their fullest.

Offline Mere Nick

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #83 on: Wed Sep 22, 2010 - 10:45:03 »
Quote
Quote

I wouldn't hook my wagon up to a pastor for counseling.

Find somebody that's trained to do it.

Unwarranted assumption.
It's not an assumption.


An assumption is a statement without supporting data. You have not supplied any supporting data, therefore your statement is an unwarranted assumption BY DEFINITION.

What supporting data could he provide that would indicate "I wouldn't hook my wagon up to a pastor for counseling"?

He made a factual statement regarding what he wouldn't do.  There are no assumptions.

HRoberson

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #84 on: Wed Sep 22, 2010 - 19:57:57 »
Quote
Quote

I wouldn't hook my wagon up to a pastor for counseling.

Find somebody that's trained to do it.

Unwarranted assumption.
It's not an assumption.


An assumption is a statement without supporting data. You have not supplied any supporting data, therefore your statement is an unwarranted assumption BY DEFINITION.
Demonstrate the assumption. I simply stated something I wouldn't do.

Quote
Quote
Quote
Most evangelical seminaries teach counseling.  For long term counseling, OF COURSE see a trained professional, bit never discount the wisdom given from Holy Spirit to a diligent man of God to find the answer quickly.

The good  pastor knows when he is over his head, and will refer the person to a pre-screened Christian counselor. I have had that happen both ways.
You are correct that most seminaries teach "counseling." One course.

Another unwarranted assumption. When have you last checked the catalog of any major seminary? there are whole departments dedicated to counseling.
Take your hands off the keyboard and keep reading.

Quote
Quote
Now, it is also true that one can get an MDiv or DMin in counseling, but those are not the "standard" tracks. But if you can get a graduate or doctoral degree from an accredited institution recognized and not negatively sanctioned by the Department of Education, cool. Denver Seminary would be one. The NCCC and it's affiliates are (in the vast majority of cases) not.

There are no standard tracks for advanced degrees, for they are different than undergraduate degrees. Ergo, another (sigh) unwarranted assumption. That the NCCC is not accredited  by any state, regional or national accrediting agency, other than itself, nor is it recognized by any degree-granting institution as sufficient for the fulfillment of one of its degrees is a MAJOR indication of where your NCCC stands vis-a-vis academic degrees.
Actually there are "standard" curriculum requirements for counseling and theology programs. And....it isn't MY NCCC...not by a long shot.

Quote
Quote
You do need to ask, and you should require a degree program that isn't limited to Bible reading.
I have no idea of what you are referring to here, but one of my teachers at Christian Counseling Center near Westminster Seminary was  PhD from Stonybrook. He thoroughly embraced the Neuthetic Counseling as taught by Jay Adams and his associates.
I wouldn't hook my wagon to Jay Adams either - or a neuthetic counselor.

Quote
Quote
But I still wouldn't hook my wagon to a pastor for most emotional issues requiring counseling.

And I would not trust anyone not trained in the sciences behind counseling. Yours is a "one note johnny" approach whereby everything is filtered through an 'emotional assessment" of dubious clinical value.
I'm thinking you're making a few too many assumptions here. Maybe you should re-read the thread.

Quote
Quote
You're always welcome to bend your pastor's ear though.

Quote
For you to equate Biblical counseling with "bending a pastor's ear" is indeed unwarranted hubris because you seem to be elevating yourself, and devaluing pastors simultaneously.
That reeks of sulfur.

In reality, you most likely do have some successes in counseling, and I am happy for that, and of course for your client. The reason being is that as one who strongly believes in the gifts being given to men and women in the church to edify the believers, Holy Spirit can use any of us, and sometimes use us despite any baggage we have, or bring to the counseling mellieu.  That is because everything we have, including our education is through the grace and mercy of God. And we are poor stewards of those precious gifts if we do not use them to their fullest.
Actually I have quite a bit and it isn't because I tell my clients to quit sinning and they'll be fine. Not hubris, sulfurous or not. When it comes to counseling, pastors are largely useless for anything you wouldn't discuss with your barkeep. Unless, as I indicated, they actually have a real degree in counseling.
« Last Edit: Wed Sep 22, 2010 - 20:21:25 by HRoberson »

Offline John T

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More Hubris
« Reply #85 on: Thu Sep 23, 2010 - 09:02:48 »


You are correct that most seminaries teach "counseling." One course.


 Actually there are "standard" curriculum requirements for counseling and theology programs. And....it isn't MY NCCC...not by a long shot.

You're always welcome to bend your pastor's ear though.

Actually I have quite a bit and it isn't because I tell my clients to quit sinning and they'll be fine. Not hubris, sulfurous or not. When it comes to counseling, pastors are largely useless for anything you wouldn't discuss with your barkeep. Unless, as I indicated, they actually have a real degree in counseling.

Thank you for more unwarranted hubris!

For you to equate a godly pastor as being the equal of a barkeep in ANY area is disgraceful, and it tells so much more about yourself than you care to admit. THE SHAME IS YOURS, SIR!

For your information, this thread is not a referendum on your NCCC. You (and others) have morphed it.

Here is a snippet from the OP:
Scenario: If someone attends church that's so big that it's almost impossible to get any counseling from your church pastor(s) due to the high number of members, and you know of another pastor from a different church who has a smaller congregation and has more time to give you counseling, is it wrong to do that? ...

If we can have a sane, logical discussion about that, then I will not request that the moderators close the thread because of what it has become.

HRoberson

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #86 on: Thu Sep 23, 2010 - 17:06:50 »
One more time around this bush - it isn't MY NCCC. Perhaps you should read the thread again.

I didn't  lower barkeeps, I raised them to the level of pastors. It is your reaction that demonstrates a lower view of barkeeps. Pastors are no more special than anyone else, and they have no more of the same Spirit as any other Christian - even if that other Christian is a barkeep. What is it with you people that think pastors are somehow more holy than the rest of humanity?

You're welcome to ask the mods to close any thread you don't like. I'm not sure what point that serves, but hey, knock yourself out.






« Last Edit: Thu Sep 23, 2010 - 22:24:15 by HRoberson »

marc

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Re: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
« Reply #87 on: Thu Sep 23, 2010 - 23:51:35 »
I see no reason to close this thread.