Author Topic: Replacing Max Lucado  (Read 24937 times)

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Offline Dufrdan

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Replacing Max Lucado
« on: Tue Jul 17, 2007 - 10:49:09 »
A dear friend of mine is a member of Oakhill.  I asked him how the search for Max Lucado's replacement was progressing.  Here is the two part reply.  I thought some of you would be interested.
 
We'll see -- this isn't the first time they've gone through these gyrations, though it is the most publicized -- Nobody new yet. A couple of times before they've tried this thing of bringing in "executive minister" to "run the staff, facilities, etc." and have Max "just write and speak" relieving him of any admin/overhead type distractions.  It hasn't worked out for the prior couple of attempts -- it all always ends up back on Max's plate -- because it never actually gets off of his plate --

So if he's going to get it done this time, he's going to have to handle it differently, even when it hurts -- even  -- well -- you know the politics of personalities in church lead-preacher situations -- So long as Max is in the building -- it is going to take one unusual person to come in there and get it done -- who is genuinely competent to get it done, who is not a "second stringer" -- who's nevertheless willing to hang around on full time front-and-center permanent second string -- while the first string guy is in the background trying to be something else -- but in fact being first string --
At least -- this is the short & sweet of what has been wrong with the prior attempts. Either they get a real "second stringer" -- who's not competent -- or they get a first stringer who is competent -- and won't tolerate the reality as it becomes apparent to him -- despite all the verbal protests to the contrary -- They need to "call it one way" and have it "be another way." Well -- a second string guy would play that game -- but they won't keep a second string guy. A first string guy doesn't need that package.

So -- like I say -- "we'll see"  -- and nobody new yet.
 
Part 2 --
 
For a postscript historical summary on this string --

What I was trying to say is they will have to find a guy who is first string in form, first string in competence, and is willing to be second string in function, while allowing Max to be first string in function and second string in form.

A second stringer just can't handle it -- though he'd love to -- he just can't do it. They've had one of those. It didn't work.  It takes a first stringer to get it done -- And a first stringer is going to insist on the function to go along with the form. They've had one of those -- and he left to go be first string in both form and function -- somewhere else; in fact returning to executive-ship in commercial industry (as compared to religious industry).

The best shot they've had yet was a young, first generation immigrant, who was also a first generation convert from the Islamic faith who'd been disowned by his entire family for converting. He came here, was the "singles" minister -- had the spiritual depth, the dynamic presentation (not sure about his large-scale admin. skills) -- but he took the singles ministry from 75 up to -- I don't know -- 600 members -- in about 2 years -- . And if they weren't growing in spirituality as well as numbers, it wasn't because he was failing to challenge them with hard truth to match pleasant truths -- he was doing that. He was the in-house "groom" for -- a first stringer in training -- and another congregation nabbed him as their 1st string, lead minister (Fareed Tulbuh -- not sure of the spelling on the last name, but that's the way it sounded). He was "on the verge" of stepping into that slot when he was hired away -- probably closer than he realized (or maybe he did realize and that's why -- as a competent first stringer -- he ran at the first chance he got).

SO -- This is definitely and firmly the third time around on this attempted transition -- and if we count Fareed, it's the fourth attempt -- and doing the exact same thing under varying labels, etc. ---

On the positive front, they're  projected to be debt free at the end of the year -- They were mounting a 30m (could that be right? I think it is) -- building campaign -- they did their usual "40 days of faith," -- They only raised about 2/3s the down payment they were wanting, and noted that fewer than 40% of the congregation were participating at all in the funding -- so they canceled and offered refunds. Very few refunds were taken -- so they used what would have been down-payment money on "full buildout of the main campus" to pay cash for a few peripheral projects (youth building, substantial upgrades to pre-existing satellite campuses, etc.)

So I don't know --



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Replacing Max Lucado
« on: Tue Jul 17, 2007 - 10:49:09 »

HRoberson

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Re: Replacing Max Lucado
« Reply #1 on: Tue Jul 17, 2007 - 13:02:35 »
The general rule for replacing a long-time, well-liked, and competent minister, is for the replacee to leave.

Of course, in this case, that's a budget consideration. But eventually, Max will go the way of all humans and they'll have to face that situation sooner or later.

Offline TB

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Re: Replacing Max Lucado
« Reply #2 on: Mon Nov 19, 2007 - 13:48:39 »
I know this is late in replying, but....
A reference for a good way to replace someone is through a transition such as Southeast Christian Church in Louisville, KY.  It was a lengthy, multi-year transitions with a gradual increase/decrease in duties.  My understanding is that the transition is now complete and worked well.

Maybe they should learn from out brothers in the ICC.  I think they did it right.  In large mega-churches that are very singular preacher oriented, the description above is just about the best method.  Another case scenario for how not to do it, is the megachurch Bellevue Baptist in Memphis.  Long time pastor Adrian Rogers died with no one in the wings.  It took months, and the replacement has had multiple problems.




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Re: Replacing Max Lucado
« Reply #2 on: Mon Nov 19, 2007 - 13:48:39 »

Offline admin

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Re: Replacing Max Lucado
« Reply #3 on: Mon Nov 19, 2007 - 15:02:50 »
I'm sorry, but at this time I am officially taking my name off the table for consideration for the Oak Hills pulpit job. As much as I like Texas, I like living in this area better. I also feel that at this time in my life I'm not ready to work with an eldership again.

So in case any of you were wondering about the status of this forum, you may breathe a sigh of relief.

Offline Dufrdan

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Re: Replacing Max Lucado
« Reply #4 on: Mon Nov 19, 2007 - 15:39:49 »
Our esteemed administrator wrote:

Quote
I'm sorry, but at this time I am officially taking my name off the table for consideration for the Oak Hills pulpit job. As much as I like Texas, I like living in this area better. I also feel that at this time in my life I'm not ready to work with an eldership again.

So in case any of you were wondering about the status of this forum, you may breathe a sigh of relief.

Aw, shucks!  I was looking forward to seeing you on the Oakhill stage in front of the rock band.


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Re: Replacing Max Lucado
« Reply #4 on: Mon Nov 19, 2007 - 15:39:49 »



marc

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Re: Replacing Max Lucado
« Reply #5 on: Mon Nov 19, 2007 - 15:55:32 »
He's probably holding out for Joel Osteen's job.

Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: Replacing Max Lucado
« Reply #6 on: Mon Nov 19, 2007 - 18:20:10 »
I'm sorry, but at this time I am officially taking my name off the table for consideration for the Oak Hills pulpit job. As much as I like Texas, I like living in this area better. I also feel that at this time in my life I'm not ready to work with an eldership again.

So in case any of you were wondering about the status of this forum, you may breathe a sigh of relief.

You aren't "Baptist" enough for Oak Hills.

Offline Mere Nick

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Re: Replacing Max Lucado
« Reply #7 on: Wed Nov 21, 2007 - 07:40:46 »
The best shot they've had yet was a young, first generation immigrant, who was also a first generation convert from the Islamic faith who'd been disowned by his entire family for converting.

It's always great to read about former practitioners of The Peaceful Religion like Fareed Tulbah coming to Christ.

Offline Big Mike Lewis

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Re: Replacing Max Lucado
« Reply #8 on: Mon Jan 14, 2008 - 10:02:34 »
Alright.  Enough arm twisting.

I'll take the job.  ::disco::

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Re: Replacing Max Lucado
« Reply #8 on: Mon Jan 14, 2008 - 10:02:34 »

Offline spurly

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Re: Replacing Max Lucado
« Reply #9 on: Wed Jan 16, 2008 - 12:38:03 »
Congratulations Big Mike!

Offline dell

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Re: Replacing Max Lucado
« Reply #10 on: Fri Jan 18, 2008 - 13:15:19 »
Well I was gonna take the job but Big Mike beat me to it.   ::tippinghat::

Offline Big Mike Lewis

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Re: Replacing Max Lucado
« Reply #11 on: Fri Jan 18, 2008 - 20:28:25 »
I'll share with ya.

Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: Replacing Max Lucado
« Reply #12 on: Fri Jan 18, 2008 - 21:04:41 »
A former "Bible Churcher" named Frazee is it.

dawngordon

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Re: Replacing Max Lucado
« Reply #13 on: Wed Jan 23, 2008 - 12:37:08 »
please tell Max I love him very much, and have learned much from him, and have given him acknowledgement in my own writings, (CHERISHES HIS BOOKS)

DAWN WAVES TO MAX JUST IN CASE HE IS READING THIS

Offline stevehut

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Re: Replacing Max Lucado
« Reply #14 on: Tue Jul 15, 2008 - 09:42:25 »
I'm not particularly interested in replacing Max in the pulpit.

But I'll be glad to replace him on the bestseller lists!

Steve   ::saint::

Offline jb728b

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Re: Replacing Max Lucado
« Reply #15 on: Tue Jul 15, 2008 - 09:55:03 »
A dear friend of mine is a member of Oakhill.  I asked him how the search for Max Lucado's replacement was progressing.  Here is the two part reply.  I thought some of you would be interested.
 
We'll see -- this isn't the first time they've gone through these gyrations, though it is the most publicized -- Nobody new yet. A couple of times before they've tried this thing of bringing in "executive minister" to "run the staff, facilities, etc." and have Max "just write and speak" relieving him of any admin/overhead type distractions.  It hasn't worked out for the prior couple of attempts -- it all always ends up back on Max's plate -- because it never actually gets off of his plate --

So if he's going to get it done this time, he's going to have to handle it differently, even when it hurts -- even  -- well -- you know the politics of personalities in church lead-preacher situations -- So long as Max is in the building -- it is going to take one unusual person to come in there and get it done -- who is genuinely competent to get it done, who is not a "second stringer" -- who's nevertheless willing to hang around on full time front-and-center permanent second string -- while the first string guy is in the background trying to be something else -- but in fact being first string --
At least -- this is the short & sweet of what has been wrong with the prior attempts. Either they get a real "second stringer" -- who's not competent -- or they get a first stringer who is competent -- and won't tolerate the reality as it becomes apparent to him -- despite all the verbal protests to the contrary -- They need to "call it one way" and have it "be another way." Well -- a second string guy would play that game -- but they won't keep a second string guy. A first string guy doesn't need that package.

So -- like I say -- "we'll see"  -- and nobody new yet.
 
Part 2 --
 
For a postscript historical summary on this string --

What I was trying to say is they will have to find a guy who is first string in form, first string in competence, and is willing to be second string in function, while allowing Max to be first string in function and second string in form.

A second stringer just can't handle it -- though he'd love to -- he just can't do it. They've had one of those. It didn't work.  It takes a first stringer to get it done -- And a first stringer is going to insist on the function to go along with the form. They've had one of those -- and he left to go be first string in both form and function -- somewhere else; in fact returning to executive-ship in commercial industry (as compared to religious industry).

The best shot they've had yet was a young, first generation immigrant, who was also a first generation convert from the Islamic faith who'd been disowned by his entire family for converting. He came here, was the "singles" minister -- had the spiritual depth, the dynamic presentation (not sure about his large-scale admin. skills) -- but he took the singles ministry from 75 up to -- I don't know -- 600 members -- in about 2 years -- . And if they weren't growing in spirituality as well as numbers, it wasn't because he was failing to challenge them with hard truth to match pleasant truths -- he was doing that. He was the in-house "groom" for -- a first stringer in training -- and another congregation nabbed him as their 1st string, lead minister (Fareed Tulbuh -- not sure of the spelling on the last name, but that's the way it sounded). He was "on the verge" of stepping into that slot when he was hired away -- probably closer than he realized (or maybe he did realize and that's why -- as a competent first stringer -- he ran at the first chance he got).

SO -- This is definitely and firmly the third time around on this attempted transition -- and if we count Fareed, it's the fourth attempt -- and doing the exact same thing under varying labels, etc. ---

On the positive front, they're  projected to be debt free at the end of the year -- They were mounting a 30m (could that be right? I think it is) -- building campaign -- they did their usual "40 days of faith," -- They only raised about 2/3s the down payment they were wanting, and noted that fewer than 40% of the congregation were participating at all in the funding -- so they canceled and offered refunds. Very few refunds were taken -- so they used what would have been down-payment money on "full buildout of the main campus" to pay cash for a few peripheral projects (youth building, substantial upgrades to pre-existing satellite campuses, etc.)

So I don't know --




The Oak Hills hierarchy is confusing. Biblically speaking, the Preacher is to be THE PREACHER, not an Elder(Pastor) or Deacon (see 1 Timothy).  All the burdens they seem to appoint to the preacher are those responsibilities that should be handled by those who hold the position of Deacons.  This frees the preacher to do his job.

Preachers and Elders (Pastors) should not have to forsake their duties to wait on tables.

Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: Replacing Max Lucado
« Reply #16 on: Tue Jul 15, 2008 - 10:07:31 »
A dear friend of mine is a member of Oakhill.  I asked him how the search for Max Lucado's replacement was progressing.  Here is the two part reply.  I thought some of you would be interested.
 
We'll see -- this isn't the first time they've gone through these gyrations, though it is the most publicized -- Nobody new yet. A couple of times before they've tried this thing of bringing in "executive minister" to "run the staff, facilities, etc." and have Max "just write and speak" relieving him of any admin/overhead type distractions.  It hasn't worked out for the prior couple of attempts -- it all always ends up back on Max's plate -- because it never actually gets off of his plate --

So if he's going to get it done this time, he's going to have to handle it differently, even when it hurts -- even  -- well -- you know the politics of personalities in church lead-preacher situations -- So long as Max is in the building -- it is going to take one unusual person to come in there and get it done -- who is genuinely competent to get it done, who is not a "second stringer" -- who's nevertheless willing to hang around on full time front-and-center permanent second string -- while the first string guy is in the background trying to be something else -- but in fact being first string --
At least -- this is the short & sweet of what has been wrong with the prior attempts. Either they get a real "second stringer" -- who's not competent -- or they get a first stringer who is competent -- and won't tolerate the reality as it becomes apparent to him -- despite all the verbal protests to the contrary -- They need to "call it one way" and have it "be another way." Well -- a second string guy would play that game -- but they won't keep a second string guy. A first string guy doesn't need that package.

So -- like I say -- "we'll see"  -- and nobody new yet.
 
Part 2 --
 
For a postscript historical summary on this string --

What I was trying to say is they will have to find a guy who is first string in form, first string in competence, and is willing to be second string in function, while allowing Max to be first string in function and second string in form.

A second stringer just can't handle it -- though he'd love to -- he just can't do it. They've had one of those. It didn't work.  It takes a first stringer to get it done -- And a first stringer is going to insist on the function to go along with the form. They've had one of those -- and he left to go be first string in both form and function -- somewhere else; in fact returning to executive-ship in commercial industry (as compared to religious industry).

The best shot they've had yet was a young, first generation immigrant, who was also a first generation convert from the Islamic faith who'd been disowned by his entire family for converting. He came here, was the "singles" minister -- had the spiritual depth, the dynamic presentation (not sure about his large-scale admin. skills) -- but he took the singles ministry from 75 up to -- I don't know -- 600 members -- in about 2 years -- . And if they weren't growing in spirituality as well as numbers, it wasn't because he was failing to challenge them with hard truth to match pleasant truths -- he was doing that. He was the in-house "groom" for -- a first stringer in training -- and another congregation nabbed him as their 1st string, lead minister (Fareed Tulbuh -- not sure of the spelling on the last name, but that's the way it sounded). He was "on the verge" of stepping into that slot when he was hired away -- probably closer than he realized (or maybe he did realize and that's why -- as a competent first stringer -- he ran at the first chance he got).

SO -- This is definitely and firmly the third time around on this attempted transition -- and if we count Fareed, it's the fourth attempt -- and doing the exact same thing under varying labels, etc. ---

On the positive front, they're  projected to be debt free at the end of the year -- They were mounting a 30m (could that be right? I think it is) -- building campaign -- they did their usual "40 days of faith," -- They only raised about 2/3s the down payment they were wanting, and noted that fewer than 40% of the congregation were participating at all in the funding -- so they canceled and offered refunds. Very few refunds were taken -- so they used what would have been down-payment money on "full buildout of the main campus" to pay cash for a few peripheral projects (youth building, substantial upgrades to pre-existing satellite campuses, etc.)

So I don't know --




The Oak Hills hierarchy is confusing. Biblically speaking, the Preacher is to be THE PREACHER, not an Elder(Pastor) or Deacon (see 1 Timothy).  All the burdens they seem to appoint to the preacher are those responsibilities that should be handled by those who hold the position of Deacons.  This frees the preacher to do his job.

Preachers and Elders (Pastors) should not have to forsake their duties to wait on tables.

Biblically speaking, I believe the preacher is to be an elder (See 1 Tim 5) but the deacons should be taking care of the physical needs of the congregation.

Offline jb728b

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Re: Replacing Max Lucado
« Reply #17 on: Tue Jul 15, 2008 - 14:06:13 »
The preacher most definitely can serve as one of the elders if he meets the qualifications found in timothy.  But it should not automatically be assumed that the preacher is one of the elders. All elders are to be teachers and preachers but not all preachers have to be elders.

Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: Replacing Max Lucado
« Reply #18 on: Tue Jul 15, 2008 - 14:18:30 »
The preacher most definitely can serve as one of the elders if he meets the qualifications found in timothy.  But it should not automatically be assumed that the preacher is one of the elders. All elders are to be teachers and preachers but not all preachers have to be elders.

BCV?

Offline Dufrdan

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Re: Replacing Max Lucado
« Reply #19 on: Tue Jul 15, 2008 - 15:41:34 »
BCV to support a "pulpit preacher" as we know it will be difficult if not impossible, since the early church as described in the NT had no such.  There were visiting "planters" as
Tim and Titus and Paul, etc, but NO resident preacher.

Offline stevehut

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Re: Replacing Max Lucado
« Reply #20 on: Wed Jul 16, 2008 - 09:03:12 »
This frees the preacher to do his job.

Then what is his job?

Offline jb728b

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Re: Replacing Max Lucado
« Reply #21 on: Wed Jul 16, 2008 - 13:42:05 »
The work of the preacher

Preach the word: 1 Timothy 4:1-2
Reprove, rebuke, exhort 2 Timothy 4:1, 2
Preach under all conditions 2 Timothy 4:2

Qualifications Of Elders/Pastors
The qualifications of elders can be classified into four separate categories
Experience. Character. Reputation.  Ability.

While many of these qualifications are relative (individuals possessing them to
some degree or another), they are "musts".
A church is not to settle for the men who come nearest these qualities. They must be possessed. (I Timothy 3:1-7; Titus 1:9).

The eldership is not some sort of "honorary position" given to reward men for their
years of hard work, but it is a work in and of itself.

Their work is to be confined to the local congregation over which they serve (I Peter 5:2).

The following are responsibilities that elders/pastors have:


1. To take heed to themselves (Acts 20:28).
2. To be men of God's word (Acts 20:32; Titus 1:9).
3. To be examples to the flock (I Peter 5:3).
4. To take the oversight (I Peter 5:2).
5. To take heed to the flock (Acts 20:28).
6. To rule well (I Timothy 5:17).
7. To feed the flock (Acts 20:28; I Peter 5:1-2).
8. To watch for wolves (Acts 20:29-30).
9. To stop the mouths of vain talkers (Titus 1:11).
10. To decide differences in the church (Acts 15:6).
11. To admonish the church (I Thessalonians 5:12).
12. To support the weak (Acts 20:35).
13. To watch for the souls of the church (Hebrews 13:17).

While some of these are required of Christians in general (including the preacher) they are ALL required of the elders/pastors.

We should avoid the "clergy mentality" that places a preacher in the role of an elder if said preacher does not meet the qualifications of an elder/pastor.  If a man is not qualified to be an elder/pastor, he is not qualified to assume, or have placed upon him, the role of an elder/pastor.

Offline jb728b

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Re: Replacing Max Lucado
« Reply #22 on: Wed Jul 16, 2008 - 13:58:17 »
BCV to support a "pulpit preacher" as we know it will be difficult if not impossible, since the early church as described in the NT had no such.  There were visiting "planters" as
Tim and Titus and Paul, etc, but NO resident preacher.

I'm not sure what you mean by the phrase "as we know it".  different religious organizations view the role of preacher differently.  Some have the clergy mentality in where the local preacher is the 'pastor'.  Others view him as an employee.  Others categorize him as a priest, bishop or cardinal.

Here is what scripture says and this is how I see it.

The Bible and localized preachers.

Timothy was a localized preacher 1 Timothy 1:3.  Paul urged him to stay in Ephesus for just that purpose.

Titus was also a local preacher Titus 1:5  Paul left him in Crete to be the local preacher for that area.

I'm not sure if there are other examples, these were just the ones I immediately thought of.  But, biblically speaking, a truth only needs to be mentioned once.

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Re: Replacing Max Lucado
« Reply #23 on: Wed Jul 16, 2008 - 14:35:10 »
I agree with you that the preacher should not be placed automatically in the eldership.  But if the preacher cannot meet the qualifications for an elder, what in the dickens is he doing preaching and teaching?  And just what is he preaching and teaching?  I have an answer for that question, but since I am not a preacher I would be interested in what some of you who are preachers might think.

Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: Replacing Max Lucado
« Reply #24 on: Wed Jul 16, 2008 - 14:47:27 »
Most preachers I have heard of, CofC or otherwise are responsible for doing more than preaching and teaching.  They end up doing a lot of the work of an elder and a lot of these elders sit on their fannies and expect the "hireling" to do it all.

I believe the following is the work of an elder:

Preach the word: 1 Timothy 4:1-2
Reprove, rebuke, exhort 2 Timothy 4:1, 2
Preach under all conditions 2 Timothy 4:2

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Re: Replacing Max Lucado
« Reply #25 on: Wed Jul 16, 2008 - 17:45:44 »
I think that the real work of the elder is shepherding the flock in whatever that means and that is a lot.  I think the real work of the preacher is not tending the flock so much as going out after more sheep.  I think the work of the preacher is, or should be, to evangelize.  That doesn't mean that he needs to be on the move all time as was Paul, but it does mean that even as a located servant, his primary role should be to take the message to the lost in much the same way that Paul did.  He took every opportunity and made even more opportunities to take the message to where the lost were.  

In addition, according to Paul's admonitions to Timothy, it is the Preachers duty to set the churches in order.  I take that to mean that he should be teaching the elders as a primary responsibility.

Offline jb728b

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Re: Replacing Max Lucado
« Reply #26 on: Thu Jul 17, 2008 - 12:16:12 »
Paul was a preacher.  But he was not qualified to be an elder/pastor ( 1 Timothy 3:2, 4).  Was it wrong for him to preach?  Of course not. 

To equate the work of a preacher with the awesome responsibility of an elder/pastor is not biblical.

Offline zoonance

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Re: Replacing Max Lucado
« Reply #27 on: Thu Jul 17, 2008 - 13:13:15 »
Paul was a preacher.  But he was not qualified to be an elder/pastor ( 1 Timothy 3:2, 4).  Was it wrong for him to preach?  Of course not. 

To equate the work of a preacher with the awesome responsibility of an elder/pastor is not biblical.



This is an interesting point.  If Paul is giving a rigid list here of qualifications, then he himself may not be qualified (may have been married with kids at one time??? - The old "what if the wife dies?" or "what if he only has one kid (children is plural)?" or "what if one or more of his multiple litter is not a christian?"


Does Paul give any other lists that he himself is either disqualified himself OR he really didn't have the specific things mentioned to be a checklist?

Offline jb728b

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Re: Replacing Max Lucado
« Reply #28 on: Thu Jul 17, 2008 - 18:43:38 »
Paul was a preacher, minister and an apostle. No where did he ever claim to be an elder\pastor.

He did give a list of duties that applied to him, as well as other preachers.

Preach the word: 1 Timothy 4:1-2
Reprove, rebuke, exhort 2 Timothy 4:1, 2
Preach under all conditions 2 Timothy 4:2
 
These are the duties assigned to the preacher.  It would also apply to elders since one of their qualifications is to be apt (willing and able) to teach. but there are more qualifications given to elders than to preachers.

Children, obey your parents.  This is also plural. Would that mean that if you are an only child that you are exempt?

Let's say a couple is sitting in an auditorium and they have only one child.  The speaker gets up and announces that all of those with children sit on the right side and all of those without children sit on the left.  Which side would this couple sit on since they don't have "children" but only one child?

One of the qualifications for elder/pastor is to 'rule his own house'. if a child is no longer 'in his house' then the elder is not responsible for the choices that child makes.

Offline zoonance

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Re: Replacing Max Lucado
« Reply #29 on: Fri Jul 18, 2008 - 12:39:34 »
Paul was a preacher, minister and an apostle. No where did he ever claim to be an elder\pastor.

He did give a list of duties that applied to him, as well as other preachers.

Preach the word: 1 Timothy 4:1-2
Reprove, rebuke, exhort 2 Timothy 4:1, 2
Preach under all conditions 2 Timothy 4:2
 
These are the duties assigned to the preacher.  It would also apply to elders since one of their qualifications is to be apt (willing and able) to teach. but there are more qualifications given to elders than to preachers.

Children, obey your parents.  This is also plural. Would that mean that if you are an only child that you are exempt?

Let's say a couple is sitting in an auditorium and they have only one child.  The speaker gets up and announces that all of those with children sit on the right side and all of those without children sit on the left.  Which side would this couple sit on since they don't have "children" but only one child?

One of the qualifications for elder/pastor is to 'rule his own house'. if a child is no longer 'in his house' then the elder is not responsible for the choices that child makes.
[/b]



The man has to step down as elder when the child moves out of the house.

Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: Replacing Max Lucado
« Reply #30 on: Fri Jul 18, 2008 - 12:45:28 »
One of the qualifications for elder/pastor is to 'rule his own house'. if a child is no longer 'in his house' then the elder is not responsible for the choices that child makes.

Au contrair mi Capitan!  If you had an elder who had four children, and three of those children "left the faith" shortly after leaving the house, would you conclude anything about said elder?

Or another example:

You have an elder who enables his children's bad decisions.  He does not tell them they are wrong in what they are doing and blames their bad behavior on others.

Both are real life scenarios.

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Replacing Max Lucado
« Reply #31 on: Fri Jul 18, 2008 - 13:06:43 »
One of the qualifications for elder/pastor is to 'rule his own house'. if a child is no longer 'in his house' then the elder is not responsible for the choices that child makes.

Au contrair mi Capitan!  If you had an elder who had four children, and three of those children "left the faith" shortly after leaving the house, would you conclude anything about said elder?

According to reformed theology, they just weren't among the elect.  They were predestined to reprobation.  No fault can be ascribed to the elder.

Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: Replacing Max Lucado
« Reply #32 on: Fri Jul 18, 2008 - 13:08:31 »
One of the qualifications for elder/pastor is to 'rule his own house'. if a child is no longer 'in his house' then the elder is not responsible for the choices that child makes.

Au contrair mi Capitan!  If you had an elder who had four children, and three of those children "left the faith" shortly after leaving the house, would you conclude anything about said elder?

According to reformed theology, they just weren't among the elect.  They were predestined to reprobation.  No fault can be ascribed to the elder.

Jb728b is not reformed, so why does that have anything to do with this discussion?

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Replacing Max Lucado
« Reply #33 on: Fri Jul 18, 2008 - 13:16:57 »
One of the qualifications for elder/pastor is to 'rule his own house'. if a child is no longer 'in his house' then the elder is not responsible for the choices that child makes.

Au contrair mi Capitan!  If you had an elder who had four children, and three of those children "left the faith" shortly after leaving the house, would you conclude anything about said elder?

According to reformed theology, they just weren't among the elect.  They were predestined to reprobation.  No fault can be ascribed to the elder.

Jb728b is not reformed, so why does that have anything to do with this discussion?

I understood that you were.  If not then ignore the post.

Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: Replacing Max Lucado
« Reply #34 on: Fri Jul 18, 2008 - 13:20:20 »
One of the qualifications for elder/pastor is to 'rule his own house'. if a child is no longer 'in his house' then the elder is not responsible for the choices that child makes.

Au contrair mi Capitan!  If you had an elder who had four children, and three of those children "left the faith" shortly after leaving the house, would you conclude anything about said elder?

According to reformed theology, they just weren't among the elect.  They were predestined to reprobation.  No fault can be ascribed to the elder.

Jb728b is not reformed, so why does that have anything to do with this discussion?

I understood that you were.  If not then ignore the post.

It is a large part of my background, so I understand it.  However, I am not reformed.