Author Topic: Submission in Marriage  (Read 37600 times)

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Offline chosenone

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Re: Submission in Marriage
« Reply #35 on: Sat Jun 26, 2010 - 15:32:54 »
Has anyone said that it is a set of rules (without me having to go back and read the whole thread I mean?) yes the right attitude to each other is vital. Submission with a resentlful attitude is awful. If anyone does something because they HAVE to, what good is that? It needs to be done willingly becuase we love that person and because we love God. 

I don't think anyone here on this thread has made a set list of rules, but I have seen it attempted elsewhere.  ::smile::


 Oh Ok, The only thing we need to live by is what God says. Maybe they are rules and maybe they arent, but they are wise and good.  I suppose that we all live by rules in life every day dont we.

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Re: Submission in Marriage
« Reply #35 on: Sat Jun 26, 2010 - 15:32:54 »

JMT

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Re: Submission in Marriage
« Reply #36 on: Sat Jun 26, 2010 - 17:01:12 »
Has anyone said that it is a set of rules (without me having to go back and read the whole thread I mean?) yes the right attitude to each other is vital. Submission with a resentlful attitude is awful. If anyone does something because they HAVE to, what good is that? It needs to be done willingly becuase we love that person and because we love God. 

I don't think anyone here on this thread has made a set list of rules, but I have seen it attempted elsewhere.  ::smile::


 Oh Ok, The only thing we need to live by is what God says. Maybe they are rules and maybe they arent, but they are wise and good.  I suppose that we all live by rules in life every day dont we.

What I am talking about is defining what submission looks like to the nth degree...telling women what their roles are and are not within the family structure *period*, not taking into account that people are not carbon copies of one another.  What is a helpmate to one husband is going to look very very different to another, but there are some who just want submission strictly defined and just as strictly followed according to *their* preferences...because they think *they* have the ONLY way it can be done all worked out in their marriages.

 

Offline lonegreywolf20

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Re: Submission in Marriage
« Reply #37 on: Sat Jun 26, 2010 - 22:50:56 »
Has anyone said that it is a set of rules (without me having to go back and read the whole thread I mean?) yes the right attitude to each other is vital. Submission with a resentful attitude is awful. If anyone does something because they HAVE to, what good is that? It needs to be done willingly because we love that person and because we love God. 

I don't think anyone here on this thread has made a set list of rules, but I have seen it attempted elsewhere.  ::smile::


 Oh OK, The only thing we need to live by is what God says. Maybe they are rules and maybe they aren't, but they are wise and good.  I suppose that we all live by rules in life every day dint we.

What I am talking about is defining what submission looks like to the nth degree...telling women what their roles are and are not within the family structure *period*, not taking into account that people are not carbon copies of one another.  What is a helpmate to one husband is going to look very very different to another, but there are some who just want submission strictly defined and just as strictly followed according to *their* preferences...because they think *they* have the ONLY way it can be done all worked out in their marriages.

 

Thank you JMT! This is what I was trying to say in this thread. I am not a carbon copy of Chosen's husband. My marriage is not a carbon copy of anyone's marriage. It is unique in it's own right as a marriage. Just because your way works for your marriage does not mean that my way will work in mine. We are all hardwired differently. We all have our own unique personalities and ways of handling differing situations.
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This is how God created us. We also have our own interpretations of mutual submission. If God wanted us all to do it the same way, then the interpretation would be the same. Could it be that in some instances, we interpret some scriptures differently because that's the way God wants it? Sometimes it works in our benefit and other times it doesn't, but if it does, and it aligns with our own interpretation, this could be the way God wanted us to do it?

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Re: Submission in Marriage
« Reply #37 on: Sat Jun 26, 2010 - 22:50:56 »

Offline chosenone

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Re: Submission in Marriage
« Reply #38 on: Sun Jun 27, 2010 - 07:52:42 »
lonegreywlf, of course we are all different and need to work out in which way we obey God, but we are still supposed to do what God says. Submission is biblical therefore, its just what we, as individual couples, feel that God is saying here and putting it into practise in our own marriages.
However, it is clear in that this is Gods order in marriage, I cant see how anyone can deny that.
  If a man in any marriage is always giving into his wife desires and wants or demands just to keep the peace, that isnt Biblical.

Offline lonegreywolf20

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Re: Submission in Marriage
« Reply #39 on: Sun Jun 27, 2010 - 08:35:47 »
lonegreywlf, of course we are all different and need to work out in which way we obey God, but we are still supposed to do what God says. Submission is biblical therefore, its just what we, as individual couples, feel that God is saying here and putting it into practise in our own marriages.
However, it is clear in that this is Gods order in marriage, I cant see how anyone can deny that.
  If a man in any marriage is always giving into his wife desires and wants or demands just to keep the peace, that isnt Biblical.

I am doing what God says, but in our interpretation of what God says, which is different then your own. That was the point of my last post.

Maybe we interpret it different because we're supposed to and we do that because it's what would work best in our different marriages?

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Re: Submission in Marriage
« Reply #39 on: Sun Jun 27, 2010 - 08:35:47 »



JMT

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Re: Submission in Marriage
« Reply #40 on: Sun Jun 27, 2010 - 08:41:58 »
Could it be that in some instances, we interpret some scriptures differently because that's the way God wants it?

I do think that God likes our distinctiveness (if that is a word)...I think He likes variety in how we worship, how we interpret scripture that is non essential for salvation, and how we work out our own salvation.  He doesn't want robots, He wants us to move, live and act within the free will and gifts that He gave us...if we remember that whatever we do, it should be for His glory and we are really striving for that, then He is pleased IMO! ::smile:: 

Offline chosenone

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Re: Submission in Marriage
« Reply #41 on: Sun Jun 27, 2010 - 10:10:41 »
lonegreywlf, of course we are all different and need to work out in which way we obey God, but we are still supposed to do what God says. Submission is biblical therefore, its just what we, as individual couples, feel that God is saying here and putting it into practise in our own marriages.
However, it is clear in that this is Gods order in marriage, I cant see how anyone can deny that.
  If a man in any marriage is always giving into his wife desires and wants or demands just to keep the peace, that isnt Biblical.

I am doing what God says, but in our interpretation of what God says, which is different then your own. That was the point of my last post.

Maybe we interpret it different because we're supposed to and we do that because it's what would work best in our different marriages?


  So how do you interpret the verses about the wife should submit to the husband? How can that also mean mutual submission?No where does God say that the husband should submit to the wife, He says that he must love the wife.

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Re: Submission in Marriage
« Reply #42 on: Sun Jun 27, 2010 - 10:39:11 »
So how do you interpret the verses about the wife should submit to the husband? How can that also mean mutual submission?No where does God say that the husband should submit to the wife, He says that he must love the wife.

The bible tells us in Ephesians to submit to one another...how does it make sense that my dh would submit to *you* and other women in the body, but not to me, his very wife?  With all due respect..IMO it is just silly...and would be *extremely* hurtful to me to think that my dh respected other women enough to submit to them, but not enough to submit to me simply because I took his last name.

Wives are called to submit, men are called to lead...that does not mean that men are always right, always have perfect wisdom, judgment or discernment always knowing the way to go.  Wives are called to be our dh's helpmate.  I can not help him if I am always just silently and blindly following him.  I have been given gifts that compliment and help my dh.  He submits to me in those times..and I am BEYOND blessed by it!  It makes it easier to submit to him when I know he values and trusts my input and goes with it sometimes.  He has been given gifts that compliment and help me and I GLADLY submit to him in those times.

Marriage is a team.  My dh needs my input, my advice, my thoughts and ways of seeing things. A good leader knows he can trust his advisers and knows when to follow their advice (or their lead).
I need my dh's leadership.  I need his way of thinking, his advice, his input, his thoughts and ways of seeing things.  A good follower knows when to speak up and when to differ to the one who is more suited TO lead.

My bil's marriage is totally different.  His is IN command. She makes NO decision without his ok, and does not speak her thoughts unless she is first asked.  She would be *very* uncomfortable in a marriage like mine which thrives on teamwork the way ours does.  It would break my spirit to live in a marriage like hers where the team work looks like theirs does.

Is one way wrong and the other right?  I don't think so.  God calls us to submit.  We both are submitting to our dhs in the way that *they* say works for them.   ::smile::  That is what I read Lone to be testifying about his marriage as well.  Sometimes, he said that he goes with her to keep the peace...and who among us has not done that?  I have followed in times I didn't agree, just because it was easier to keep the peace than to fight about it.  It is not unbiblical for us to occasionally give in and not demand our own way, be it a dh or a dw.   ::smile::

Offline phoebe

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Re: Submission in Marriage
« Reply #43 on: Sun Jun 27, 2010 - 13:41:24 »
I agree with 90% of what JMT says.  And it is well said.

I can't quite go along with an idea of whatever-works-for-you, because that leaves out whatever-God-wants-to-work-for-you.

And, I think she answered chosenone's questions re: "So how do you interpret the verses about the wife should submit to the husband? How can that also mean mutual submission?No where does God say that the husband should submit to the wife, He says that he must love the wife."


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Re: Submission in Marriage
« Reply #43 on: Sun Jun 27, 2010 - 13:41:24 »

Offline Cally

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Re: Submission in Marriage
« Reply #44 on: Sun Jun 27, 2010 - 15:52:10 »
The answer is that "submit" has different definitions relative to context. Husbands do not submit to wives "as unto the Lord."

Nor does Ephesians tell everyone to submit to each other "as unto the Lord."

Jesus said to become the "servant of all" to be greatest (the meaning of Ephesian's "submit to each other").

And YET, it is clear we submit to Christ who "submitted" to us in service and love.

To each of us, we KNOW that there is a way that we submit to Christ as our masters (and wives submit to husbands "as unto the Master" in the same way). We also know that Christ submitted to us in purpose. Understanding of those two TYPES and contexts of submission are quite fundamental to Christianity.

JMT

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Re: Submission in Marriage
« Reply #45 on: Sun Jun 27, 2010 - 16:49:36 »
I agree with 90% of what JMT says.  And it is well said.

I can't quite go along with an idea of whatever-works-for-you, because that leaves out whatever-God-wants-to-work-for-you.

And, I think she answered chosenone's questions re: "So how do you interpret the verses about the wife should submit to the husband? How can that also mean mutual submission?No where does God say that the husband should submit to the wife, He says that he must love the wife."



I want to clarify what I mean about "whatever works for you" concept.  I believe we are to follow God's commands and seek after Him to make sure that whatever we do, it is for His glory.  I just don't think it is going to look the same in every single marriage and I don't think it is up to me to judge the "degrees" of submission or if they are unbiblical/less godly or not; that would be between the dh, dw, and God. That was what I meant and was trying to say... ::smile::

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Re: Submission in Marriage
« Reply #46 on: Fri Jul 02, 2010 - 03:17:44 »
The answer is that "submit" has different definitions relative to context. Husbands do not submit to wives "as unto the Lord."

Nor does Ephesians tell everyone to submit to each other "as unto the Lord."

Jesus said to become the "servant of all" to be greatest (the meaning of Ephesian's "submit to each other").

And YET, it is clear we submit to Christ who "submitted" to us in service and love.

To each of us, we KNOW that there is a way that we submit to Christ as our masters (and wives submit to husbands "as unto the Master" in the same way). We also know that Christ submitted to us in purpose. Understanding of those two TYPES and contexts of submission are quite fundamental to Christianity.
Well, yes and no.
We are to submit to each other. A full reading of the Ephesian passage reveals Paul drawing a comparison between the way Christ loves the church and the way husbands are to love their wives: to present them to themselves unblemished, and to do so by being willing to die for them. This is a pretty strong picture of submission it seems to me; one that incorporates care, protection, and nurture.

The six roles used by Paul as examples all explicate his primary concern that they all submit to one another. These are not intended as rules but rather examples of what submitting to one another might look like in that particular social setting. The examples are not the controlling issue but rather the primary issue of submitting to one another - because we are not drunk on wine but filled with the Spirit.


Offline chosenone

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Re: Submission in Marriage
« Reply #47 on: Fri Jul 02, 2010 - 04:58:51 »
For those who always talk about mutual submission how do you explain the specific instructions to wives to submit to their husbands?

Offline lonegreywolf20

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Re: Submission in Marriage
« Reply #48 on: Fri Jul 02, 2010 - 09:26:57 »
For those who always talk about mutual submission how do you explain the specific instructions to wives to submit to their husbands?


I believe this explains it pretty well:

http://adventist.fm.netadvent.org/articles/women.htm

I guess what I don't understand is if we interpret the scriptures differently, yet acheive the same results, why is it so bad? We're not disobeying God, and I believe God, as I have said before allows us to interpret scriptures according to one another's marriage. Obviously, I'm not advocating murder and the Bible is very clear on many things, and many things left up to intrepretation.

I don't come down on the way that you handle your marriage Chosenone, not that you have come down on mine, but as explained in this thread, not all marriages are cut from the same cloth, not all marriages are the same.

Offline chosenone

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Re: Submission in Marriage
« Reply #49 on: Sun Jul 04, 2010 - 22:56:57 »
lonegreywolf
I agree that all marriages are different but still God does tell husbands and wives certain things and we need to obey what he says as we understand it. If he tells wives to submit to their husband as unto the Lord, then in some way in that marriage we are to do that. Now if we are OK with submitting to God then to submit to our husbands, as He tells us to, is surely the next step.
No matter what anyone says, there will always be times in a marriage, maybe only occasional, where there is an issue that the husband and wife dont agree on, even after prayer and discussion.So what does the wife do then?. Does she submit and defer to her husband or does she insist on her own way?
Each wife needs to work out, with God, how she does this, and how it works out in her own marriage but we cant just ignore what God tells us to do. He never speaks about a 'mutual submission marriage' ever.

Now I am definately not a person who finds it easy to be submissive, especially because of many past hurts and betrayals, and my husband isnt naturally a person who is a leader,(and he definately would NEVER insist on his way) but I cant escape from the fact that God  CLEARLY says that wives are to submit to their husbands and respect them and husbands are to love their wives. If I dont trust my husband to make a decision then I am not respecting him or allowing him to be in his God given role.

 Yes so each wife needs to make a decision as to how she obeys this, but she cant just ignore what it clearly says, no matter how much she hates it or doesnt want to. God knows men and women so well, and THAT is why he says certain things specifically to each. He is very wise. The fact that so many women hate this teaching is proof of that.

Offline lonegreywolf20

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Re: Submission in Marriage
« Reply #50 on: Sun Jul 04, 2010 - 23:14:51 »
lonegreywolf
I agree that all marriages are different but still God does tell husbands and wives certain things and we need to obey what he says as we understand it. If he tells wives to submit to their husband as unto the Lord, then in some way in that marriage we are to do that. Now if we are OK with submitting to God then to submit to our husbands, as He tells us to, is surely the next step.
No matter what anyone says, there will always be times in a marriage, maybe only occasional, where there is an issue that the husband and wife dont agree on, even after prayer and discussion.So what does the wife do then?. Does she submit and defer to her husband or does she insist on her own way?
Each wife needs to work out, with God, how she does this, and how it works out in her own marriage but we cant just ignore what God tells us to do. He never speaks about a 'mutual submission marriage' ever.

Now I am definately not a person who finds it easy to be submissive, especially because of many past hurts and betrayals, and my husband isnt naturally a person who is a leader,(and he definately would NEVER insist on his way) but I cant escape from the fact that God  CLEARLY says that wives are to submit to their husbands and respect them and husbands are to love their wives. If I dont trust my husband to make a decision then I am not respecting him or allowing him to be in his God given role.

 Yes so each wife needs to make a decision as to how she obeys this, but she cant just ignore what it clearly says, no matter how much she hates it or doesnt want to. God knows men and women so well, and THAT is why he says certain things specifically to each. He is very wise. The fact that so many women hate this teaching is proof of that.

I don't see my wife hating that teaching so much in that it's what compliments our marriage so that our marriage works well.

We're gonna have to agree to disagree on this. I will not bend as I know that I am not a full time leader nor can I be.  It's just not in me to be that. I will continue to defer to my wife at times when she has more experience in something than I do. If some how this makes me a horrible husband, than so be it, but I seriously doubt it will keep me out of heaven, especially if my marriage works so well.

Not only that, but I don't remember ever saying that you're way is the wrong way, but I get the feeling that it's exactly what I'm being told.

If I'm wrong about being allowed into heaven because I believe in mutual submission between a husband and wife, then I will deal with it at that time.



Offline chosenone

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Re: Submission in Marriage
« Reply #51 on: Mon Jul 05, 2010 - 02:29:01 »
Lonegreywolf, goodness I never said nor do I believe that you are a horrible husband in anyway. I am sure your marriage is very good and happy.I suspect that you wife makes most of the decisions but if she feels OK about that then that is between her and God. This certainly isnt a 'getting into heaven' issue, and I certainly have never said that in anyway.(nor has it even occured to me)
My husband used to allow his ex to get her own way most of the time and found it impossible to ever make any decision because she wouldnt let him. It never worked for them and they werent happy, but everyone has to live with what they think is OK,and sometimes we have to do things to keep the peace if there is no other way.    

If I may I will give an example of what I mean, In the later years of my husbands former marriage, his wife wanted to go and see a film that had sex scenes in it. My husband asked her not to go, but not only did she go, but she also took their  15 year old son. He and his younger son went to see another film that was suitable. This caused many problems, and after their divorce God actually told her in no uncertain terms that she shouldnt have done that and He also told her to appologise to him. To me that was a clear example where she should have deferred to her husband,submitted to him, because he wanted to protect his family,(which is his job)but intead she rebelled and did what she wanted and also took her teenage son.
  
Another example was when we were trying to buy a larger house about 4 years ago in another area. We had been trying for 3 months to sell our house and find another one. Things kept going wrong, but we so needed a larger house that we persevered. Finally my husband said that he felt we needed to stop and take our house off the market. I didnt like that because I so wanted to move, so I had a decision and a choice.Did I argue? Did I try to talk him out of it? Or did I submit? I submitted to his decision. He was subsequently proved to be right as his job in that area ended a few months later and we are still in the original area where God is using us in many ways. I am SO glad that we didnt move there.
 
« Last Edit: Mon Jul 05, 2010 - 07:39:56 by chosenone »

Offline Cally

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Re: Submission in Marriage
« Reply #52 on: Mon Jul 05, 2010 - 06:21:42 »
The answer is that "submit" has different definitions relative to context. Husbands do not submit to wives "as unto the Lord."

Nor does Ephesians tell everyone to submit to each other "as unto the Lord."

Jesus said to become the "servant of all" to be greatest (the meaning of Ephesian's "submit to each other").

And YET, it is clear we submit to Christ who "submitted" to us in service and love.

To each of us, we KNOW that there is a way that we submit to Christ as our masters (and wives submit to husbands "as unto the Master" in the same way). We also know that Christ submitted to us in purpose. Understanding of those two TYPES and contexts of submission are quite fundamental to Christianity.
Well, yes and no.
We are to submit to each other. A full reading of the Ephesian passage reveals Paul drawing a comparison between the way Christ loves the church and the way husbands are to love their wives: to present them to themselves unblemished, and to do so by being willing to die for them. This is a pretty strong picture of submission it seems to me; one that incorporates care, protection, and nurture.

The six roles used by Paul as examples all explicate his primary concern that they all submit to one another. These are not intended as rules but rather examples of what submitting to one another might look like in that particular social setting. The examples are not the controlling issue but rather the primary issue of submitting to one another - because we are not drunk on wine but filled with the Spirit.



Ah, I think you meant "sex roles."

I agree somewhat, albeit in the sense of what I said previously: in a manner of speaking, each role is a form of "submission." Furthermore, Paul also tells that women should be taught to "love" their husbands elsewhere (that is, husbands are not told to love their wives as if they are the only ones to do so).

Yet, there is nothing wavering from the consistant tune of: "wives submit as to the Lord, Sarah called her husband her master/lord so be like her" etc. There is simply nothing telling husbands to do likewise with their wives.

I believe the essence of the asymmetry lies in the obviousness of Adam and Eve spelled out in 1 Corinthians 11:8-9, and to combine it with the other passages, I mostly see an emphasis on a husband leading and the wife learning to support, respond and follow. Ballroom dancing.  ::nodding:: Yet each are responsible for making the thing work for each other.

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Re: Submission in Marriage
« Reply #53 on: Fri Jul 09, 2010 - 01:02:01 »
The answer is that "submit" has different definitions relative to context. Husbands do not submit to wives "as unto the Lord."

Nor does Ephesians tell everyone to submit to each other "as unto the Lord."

Jesus said to become the "servant of all" to be greatest (the meaning of Ephesian's "submit to each other").

And YET, it is clear we submit to Christ who "submitted" to us in service and love.

To each of us, we KNOW that there is a way that we submit to Christ as our masters (and wives submit to husbands "as unto the Master" in the same way). We also know that Christ submitted to us in purpose. Understanding of those two TYPES and contexts of submission are quite fundamental to Christianity.
Well, yes and no.
We are to submit to each other. A full reading of the Ephesian passage reveals Paul drawing a comparison between the way Christ loves the church and the way husbands are to love their wives: to present them to themselves unblemished, and to do so by being willing to die for them. This is a pretty strong picture of submission it seems to me; one that incorporates care, protection, and nurture.

The six roles used by Paul as examples all explicate his primary concern that they all submit to one another. These are not intended as rules but rather examples of what submitting to one another might look like in that particular social setting. The examples are not the controlling issue but rather the primary issue of submitting to one another - because we are not drunk on wine but filled with the Spirit.



Ah, I think you meant "sex roles."

I agree somewhat, albeit in the sense of what I said previously: in a manner of speaking, each role is a form of "submission." Furthermore, Paul also tells that women should be taught to "love" their husbands elsewhere (that is, husbands are not told to love their wives as if they are the only ones to do so).

Yet, there is nothing wavering from the consistant tune of: "wives submit as to the Lord, Sarah called her husband her master/lord so be like her" etc. There is simply nothing telling husbands to do likewise with their wives.

I believe the essence of the asymmetry lies in the obviousness of Adam and Eve spelled out in 1 Corinthians 11:8-9, and to combine it with the other passages, I mostly see an emphasis on a husband leading and the wife learning to support, respond and follow. Ballroom dancing.  ::nodding:: Yet each are responsible for making the thing work for each other.
No, I meant six roles (wife, husband, child, parent, slave, master). My point is that the discussion of the roles are not the primary import of the text. Rather, the import is our submission to one another.

The six roles are simply examples of how that submission might be played out in our lives. The list is not exhaustive and is only illustrative of the primary point.

Don't build too much theology on an example, losing site of the primary concern of the passsage.

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Re: Submission in Marriage
« Reply #54 on: Sun Jul 11, 2010 - 00:26:47 »
The answer is that "submit" has different definitions relative to context. Husbands do not submit to wives "as unto the Lord."

Nor does Ephesians tell everyone to submit to each other "as unto the Lord."

Jesus said to become the "servant of all" to be greatest (the meaning of Ephesian's "submit to each other").

And YET, it is clear we submit to Christ who "submitted" to us in service and love.

To each of us, we KNOW that there is a way that we submit to Christ as our masters (and wives submit to husbands "as unto the Master" in the same way). We also know that Christ submitted to us in purpose. Understanding of those two TYPES and contexts of submission are quite fundamental to Christianity.
Well, yes and no.
We are to submit to each other. A full reading of the Ephesian passage reveals Paul drawing a comparison between the way Christ loves the church and the way husbands are to love their wives: to present them to themselves unblemished, and to do so by being willing to die for them. This is a pretty strong picture of submission it seems to me; one that incorporates care, protection, and nurture.

The six roles used by Paul as examples all explicate his primary concern that they all submit to one another. These are not intended as rules but rather examples of what submitting to one another might look like in that particular social setting. The examples are not the controlling issue but rather the primary issue of submitting to one another - because we are not drunk on wine but filled with the Spirit.



Ah, I think you meant "sex roles."

I agree somewhat, albeit in the sense of what I said previously: in a manner of speaking, each role is a form of "submission." Furthermore, Paul also tells that women should be taught to "love" their husbands elsewhere (that is, husbands are not told to love their wives as if they are the only ones to do so).

Yet, there is nothing wavering from the consistant tune of: "wives submit as to the Lord, Sarah called her husband her master/lord so be like her" etc. There is simply nothing telling husbands to do likewise with their wives.

I believe the essence of the asymmetry lies in the obviousness of Adam and Eve spelled out in 1 Corinthians 11:8-9, and to combine it with the other passages, I mostly see an emphasis on a husband leading and the wife learning to support, respond and follow. Ballroom dancing.  ::nodding:: Yet each are responsible for making the thing work for each other.
No, I meant six roles (wife, husband, child, parent, slave, master). My point is that the discussion of the roles are not the primary import of the text. Rather, the import is our submission to one another.

The six roles are simply examples of how that submission might be played out in our lives. The list is not exhaustive and is only illustrative of the primary point.

Don't build too much theology on an example, losing site of the primary concern of the passsage.

Hm, so would you claim that Paul may as well have said "husbands, submit to your wives as unto God?"

Offline chosenone

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Re: Submission in Marriage
« Reply #55 on: Sun Jul 11, 2010 - 01:02:32 »
The answer is that "submit" has different definitions relative to context. Husbands do not submit to wives "as unto the Lord."

Nor does Ephesians tell everyone to submit to each other "as unto the Lord."

Jesus said to become the "servant of all" to be greatest (the meaning of Ephesian's "submit to each other").

And YET, it is clear we submit to Christ who "submitted" to us in service and love.

To each of us, we KNOW that there is a way that we submit to Christ as our masters (and wives submit to husbands "as unto the Master" in the same way). We also know that Christ submitted to us in purpose. Understanding of those two TYPES and contexts of submission are quite fundamental to Christianity.
Well, yes and no.
We are to submit to each other. A full reading of the Ephesian passage reveals Paul drawing a comparison between the way Christ loves the church and the way husbands are to love their wives: to present them to themselves unblemished, and to do so by being willing to die for them. This is a pretty strong picture of submission it seems to me; one that incorporates care, protection, and nurture.

The six roles used by Paul as examples all explicate his primary concern that they all submit to one another. These are not intended as rules but rather examples of what submitting to one another might look like in that particular social setting. The examples are not the controlling issue but rather the primary issue of submitting to one another - because we are not drunk on wine but filled with the Spirit.



Ah, I think you meant "sex roles."

I agree somewhat, albeit in the sense of what I said previously: in a manner of speaking, each role is a form of "submission." Furthermore, Paul also tells that women should be taught to "love" their husbands elsewhere (that is, husbands are not told to love their wives as if they are the only ones to do so).

Yet, there is nothing wavering from the consistant tune of: "wives submit as to the Lord, Sarah called her husband her master/lord so be like her" etc. There is simply nothing telling husbands to do likewise with their wives.

I believe the essence of the asymmetry lies in the obviousness of Adam and Eve spelled out in 1 Corinthians 11:8-9, and to combine it with the other passages, I mostly see an emphasis on a husband leading and the wife learning to support, respond and follow. Ballroom dancing.  ::nodding:: Yet each are responsible for making the thing work for each other.
   

BRILLIANT picture of a godly marriage Cally with the ballroom dancing. They are both dancing to the same music. He leads and she follows, while both are fully participating in the dance.I will use that example myself in the future I am sure. Thanks.   ::smile::

Offline phoebe

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Re: Submission in Marriage
« Reply #56 on: Sun Jul 11, 2010 - 14:04:50 »
lonegreywlf, of course we are all different and need to work out in which way we obey God, but we are still supposed to do what God says. Submission is biblical therefore, its just what we, as individual couples, feel that God is saying here and putting it into practise in our own marriages.
However, it is clear in that this is Gods order in marriage, I cant see how anyone can deny that.
  If a man in any marriage is always giving into his wife desires and wants or demands just to keep the peace, that isnt Biblical.

I am doing what God says, but in our interpretation of what God says, which is different then your own. That was the point of my last post.

Maybe we interpret it different because we're supposed to and we do that because it's what would work best in our different marriages?


  So how do you interpret the verses about the wife should submit to the husband? How can that also mean mutual submission?No where does God say that the husband should submit to the wife, He says that he must love the wife.

How?  How does he say the husband is to love his wife?  As Christ loved the church.  How did Christ love the church?  Sacrificially.  He gave up ALL for her.  Sacrificially is doing all one can for the betterment of another,  giving up one's self one's things, one's power, one's life, for the uplifting of another.  Where, then, is the husband now?  The pyramid is now inverted.  Where is he?  In the submissive position.  Yielding.  Serving.  Loving.  Like Christ.  And as his wife is already doing these things, only now with the benefit of love thrown in vs. being the vessel for a legal heir, the relationship becomes mutual.  It is perfect, as God designed it.


Offline phoebe

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Re: Submission in Marriage
« Reply #57 on: Sun Jul 11, 2010 - 14:14:48 »
...

I agree somewhat, albeit in the sense of what I said previously: in a manner of speaking, each role is a form of "submission." Furthermore, Paul also tells that women should be taught to "love" their husbands elsewhere (that is, husbands are not told to love their wives as if they are the only ones to do so).

Yet, there is nothing wavering from the consistant tune of: "wives submit as to the Lord, Sarah called her husband her master/lord so be like her" etc. There is simply nothing telling husbands to do likewise with their wives.

I believe the essence of the asymmetry lies in the obviousness of Adam and Eve spelled out in 1 Corinthians 11:8-9, and to combine it with the other passages, I mostly see an emphasis on a husband leading and the wife learning to support, respond and follow. Ballroom dancing.  ::nodding:: Yet each are responsible for making the thing work for each other.

Interesting.  But wrong.  My daughter teaches ballroom dancing.  Her "role" is not to follow the lead of a new or bad dancer, as that would be a complete disaster.  Nor to make the partner look like he is in the lead, whether he is or is not, but to make it look like they are moving as one in mind and body.  She does two things:  1) supports his inability to lead by quietly leading, AND 2) neither takes credit for leading nor discredits her partner.  If they do well, they do so as a team.  The male partners role is exactly the same.

Thanks for the analogy.  It works wonderfully well for my belief in mutuality.



Offline phoebe

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Re: Submission in Marriage
« Reply #58 on: Sun Jul 11, 2010 - 14:20:31 »
Hm, so would you claim that Paul may as well have said "husbands, submit to your wives as unto God?"

It does not say that in reverse, either.  Check out the original text for yourself.  It ain't there.

Offline Cally

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Re: Submission in Marriage
« Reply #59 on: Mon Jul 12, 2010 - 01:43:08 »
...

I agree somewhat, albeit in the sense of what I said previously: in a manner of speaking, each role is a form of "submission." Furthermore, Paul also tells that women should be taught to "love" their husbands elsewhere (that is, husbands are not told to love their wives as if they are the only ones to do so).

Yet, there is nothing wavering from the consistant tune of: "wives submit as to the Lord, Sarah called her husband her master/lord so be like her" etc. There is simply nothing telling husbands to do likewise with their wives.

I believe the essence of the asymmetry lies in the obviousness of Adam and Eve spelled out in 1 Corinthians 11:8-9, and to combine it with the other passages, I mostly see an emphasis on a husband leading and the wife learning to support, respond and follow. Ballroom dancing.  ::nodding:: Yet each are responsible for making the thing work for each other.

Interesting.  But wrong.  My daughter teaches ballroom dancing.  Her "role" is not to follow the lead of a new or bad dancer, as that would be a complete disaster.  Nor to make the partner look like he is in the lead, whether he is or is not, but to make it look like they are moving as one in mind and body.  She does two things:  1) supports his inability to lead by quietly leading, AND 2) neither takes credit for leading nor discredits her partner.  If they do well, they do so as a team.  The male partners role is exactly the same.

Thanks for the analogy.  It works wonderfully well for my belief in mutuality.




She "quietly" leads, huh? I wonder what that means.  ::pondering::

Offline phoebe

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Re: Submission in Marriage
« Reply #60 on: Mon Jul 12, 2010 - 10:40:09 »
...

I agree somewhat, albeit in the sense of what I said previously: in a manner of speaking, each role is a form of "submission." Furthermore, Paul also tells that women should be taught to "love" their husbands elsewhere (that is, husbands are not told to love their wives as if they are the only ones to do so).

Yet, there is nothing wavering from the consistant tune of: "wives submit as to the Lord, Sarah called her husband her master/lord so be like her" etc. There is simply nothing telling husbands to do likewise with their wives.

I believe the essence of the asymmetry lies in the obviousness of Adam and Eve spelled out in 1 Corinthians 11:8-9, and to combine it with the other passages, I mostly see an emphasis on a husband leading and the wife learning to support, respond and follow. Ballroom dancing.  ::nodding:: Yet each are responsible for making the thing work for each other.

Interesting.  But wrong.  My daughter teaches ballroom dancing.  Her "role" is not to follow the lead of a new or bad dancer, as that would be a complete disaster.  Nor to make the partner look like he is in the lead, whether he is or is not, but to make it look like they are moving as one in mind and body.  She does two things:  1) supports his inability to lead by quietly leading, AND 2) neither takes credit for leading nor discredits her partner.  If they do well, they do so as a team.  The male partners role is exactly the same.

Thanks for the analogy.  It works wonderfully well for my belief in mutuality.




She "quietly" leads, huh? I wonder what that means.  ::pondering::

 ::frustrated::  See what I mean?  People don't read.  Did you miss the part about "moving as one"??  And if you keep reading all of the post, you will see that it says "the male partners role is exactly the same."  Which includes "quietly" leads.  It actually has more to do with framing her so that your eyes are on her, and not on him.


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Re: Submission in Marriage
« Reply #61 on: Mon Jul 12, 2010 - 23:57:40 »
The answer is that "submit" has different definitions relative to context. Husbands do not submit to wives "as unto the Lord."

Nor does Ephesians tell everyone to submit to each other "as unto the Lord."

Jesus said to become the "servant of all" to be greatest (the meaning of Ephesian's "submit to each other").

And YET, it is clear we submit to Christ who "submitted" to us in service and love.

To each of us, we KNOW that there is a way that we submit to Christ as our masters (and wives submit to husbands "as unto the Master" in the same way). We also know that Christ submitted to us in purpose. Understanding of those two TYPES and contexts of submission are quite fundamental to Christianity.
Well, yes and no.
We are to submit to each other. A full reading of the Ephesian passage reveals Paul drawing a comparison between the way Christ loves the church and the way husbands are to love their wives: to present them to themselves unblemished, and to do so by being willing to die for them. This is a pretty strong picture of submission it seems to me; one that incorporates care, protection, and nurture.

The six roles used by Paul as examples all explicate his primary concern that they all submit to one another. These are not intended as rules but rather examples of what submitting to one another might look like in that particular social setting. The examples are not the controlling issue but rather the primary issue of submitting to one another - because we are not drunk on wine but filled with the Spirit.



Ah, I think you meant "sex roles."

I agree somewhat, albeit in the sense of what I said previously: in a manner of speaking, each role is a form of "submission." Furthermore, Paul also tells that women should be taught to "love" their husbands elsewhere (that is, husbands are not told to love their wives as if they are the only ones to do so).

Yet, there is nothing wavering from the consistant tune of: "wives submit as to the Lord, Sarah called her husband her master/lord so be like her" etc. There is simply nothing telling husbands to do likewise with their wives.

I believe the essence of the asymmetry lies in the obviousness of Adam and Eve spelled out in 1 Corinthians 11:8-9, and to combine it with the other passages, I mostly see an emphasis on a husband leading and the wife learning to support, respond and follow. Ballroom dancing.  ::nodding:: Yet each are responsible for making the thing work for each other.
No, I meant six roles (wife, husband, child, parent, slave, master). My point is that the discussion of the roles are not the primary import of the text. Rather, the import is our submission to one another.

The six roles are simply examples of how that submission might be played out in our lives. The list is not exhaustive and is only illustrative of the primary point.

Don't build too much theology on an example, losing site of the primary concern of the passsage.

Hm, so would you claim that Paul may as well have said "husbands, submit to your wives as unto God?"
Well, no. There are a couple reasons for my view in response to your question....

a. Paul's comments were culturally specific and therefore it would not be appropriate for, and Paul would not have said, "husbands, submit to your wives as unto God."

b. The purpose of the examples is simply to illustrate the main point that we are all to submit to one another in appropriate ways - to live dignified lives. The examples need not be considered eternal and inflexible in order to make Paul's point to us.

You see, over focusing on the specifics prevents people from grasping the primary point.
« Last Edit: Tue Jul 13, 2010 - 21:26:37 by HRoberson »

Offline chosenone

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Re: Submission in Marriage
« Reply #62 on: Tue Jul 13, 2010 - 02:29:16 »
To steal another persons brilliant example, to me its like a ballroom dance. Both are fully involved and both are equally responsible in that dance, BUT the man leads and the women follows. Together they dance brilliantly,and they flow together, but if the woman started to try and lead there would be chaos and the dance would look rediculous and awful.(Like some marriages that I have known)

Offline phoebe

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Re: Submission in Marriage
« Reply #63 on: Tue Jul 13, 2010 - 09:41:47 »
To steal another persons brilliant example, to me its like a ballroom dance. Both are fully involved and both are equally responsible in that dance, BUT the man leads and the women follows. Together they dance brilliantly,and they flow together, but if the woman started to try and lead there would be chaos and the dance would look rediculous and awful.(Like some marriages that I have known)


Do you ballroom dance, chosenone? 

Offline lonegreywolf20

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Re: Submission in Marriage
« Reply #64 on: Tue Jul 13, 2010 - 10:15:36 »
To steal another persons brilliant example, to me its like a ballroom dance. Both are fully involved and both are equally responsible in that dance, BUT the man leads and the women follows. Together they dance brilliantly,and they flow together, but if the woman started to try and lead there would be chaos and the dance would look rediculous and awful.(Like some marriages that I have known)

You seem to be pretty down on women Chosenone. That they are simply incapable of leading (I mean no offense by the two previous statements, it's just an observation). I could tell you now, that I am a horrible dancer and my wife who has MS dances better than I can, and I would be glad for her to take the lead since she is much better at dancing than me.

Which was my point all along. In some things my wife has more and better experience than I do, so I would be foolish to not allow her to make the decision in those instances.

I'm sorry Chosenone, but not all marriages work the way yours does, some work the way that mine and it seems Phoebe's work and there is nothing wrong with that at all.
« Last Edit: Tue Jul 13, 2010 - 11:32:24 by lonegreywolf20 »

Offline Cally

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Re: Submission in Marriage
« Reply #65 on: Thu Jul 22, 2010 - 01:47:33 »
The answer is that "submit" has different definitions relative to context. Husbands do not submit to wives "as unto the Lord."

Nor does Ephesians tell everyone to submit to each other "as unto the Lord."

Jesus said to become the "servant of all" to be greatest (the meaning of Ephesian's "submit to each other").

And YET, it is clear we submit to Christ who "submitted" to us in service and love.

To each of us, we KNOW that there is a way that we submit to Christ as our masters (and wives submit to husbands "as unto the Master" in the same way). We also know that Christ submitted to us in purpose. Understanding of those two TYPES and contexts of submission are quite fundamental to Christianity.
Well, yes and no.
We are to submit to each other. A full reading of the Ephesian passage reveals Paul drawing a comparison between the way Christ loves the church and the way husbands are to love their wives: to present them to themselves unblemished, and to do so by being willing to die for them. This is a pretty strong picture of submission it seems to me; one that incorporates care, protection, and nurture.

The six roles used by Paul as examples all explicate his primary concern that they all submit to one another. These are not intended as rules but rather examples of what submitting to one another might look like in that particular social setting. The examples are not the controlling issue but rather the primary issue of submitting to one another - because we are not drunk on wine but filled with the Spirit.



Ah, I think you meant "sex roles."

I agree somewhat, albeit in the sense of what I said previously: in a manner of speaking, each role is a form of "submission." Furthermore, Paul also tells that women should be taught to "love" their husbands elsewhere (that is, husbands are not told to love their wives as if they are the only ones to do so).

Yet, there is nothing wavering from the consistant tune of: "wives submit as to the Lord, Sarah called her husband her master/lord so be like her" etc. There is simply nothing telling husbands to do likewise with their wives.

I believe the essence of the asymmetry lies in the obviousness of Adam and Eve spelled out in 1 Corinthians 11:8-9, and to combine it with the other passages, I mostly see an emphasis on a husband leading and the wife learning to support, respond and follow. Ballroom dancing.  ::nodding:: Yet each are responsible for making the thing work for each other.
No, I meant six roles (wife, husband, child, parent, slave, master). My point is that the discussion of the roles are not the primary import of the text. Rather, the import is our submission to one another.

The six roles are simply examples of how that submission might be played out in our lives. The list is not exhaustive and is only illustrative of the primary point.

Don't build too much theology on an example, losing site of the primary concern of the passsage.

Hm, so would you claim that Paul may as well have said "husbands, submit to your wives as unto God?"
Well, no. There are a couple reasons for my view in response to your question....

a. Paul's comments were culturally specific and therefore it would not be appropriate for, and Paul would not have said, "husbands, submit to your wives as unto God."

b. The purpose of the examples is simply to illustrate the main point that we are all to submit to one another in appropriate ways - to live dignified lives. The examples need not be considered eternal and inflexible in order to make Paul's point to us.

You see, over focusing on the specifics prevents people from grasping the primary point.

I guess that means you also see Christ as being the bride of the church? (or at least, interchangeable in gender for that image)
« Last Edit: Thu Jul 22, 2010 - 01:54:57 by Cally »

Offline chosenone

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Re: Submission in Marriage
« Reply #66 on: Thu Jul 22, 2010 - 02:35:33 »
To steal another persons brilliant example, to me its like a ballroom dance. Both are fully involved and both are equally responsible in that dance, BUT the man leads and the women follows. Together they dance brilliantly,and they flow together, but if the woman started to try and lead there would be chaos and the dance would look rediculous and awful.(Like some marriages that I have known)

You seem to be pretty down on women Chosenone. That they are simply incapable of leading (I mean no offense by the two previous statements, it's just an observation). I could tell you now, that I am a horrible dancer and my wife who has MS dances better than I can, and I would be glad for her to take the lead since she is much better at dancing than me.

Which was my point all along. In some things my wife has more and better experience than I do, so I would be foolish to not allow her to make the decision in those instances.

I'm sorry Chosenone, but not all marriages work the way yours does, some work the way that mine and it seems Phoebe's work and there is nothing wrong with that at all.

I cant ballroom dance either, that was an example of what I see as a Godly marriage.
 
I  never said that women cant make decisions did I? I make them all the time, BUT if there is a situation where we dont agree, then I need to submit to my husband as God tells me. Its not a question of who is better at what or what WE feel or think, its a question of what The Bible tells us surely? If God tells me that I am to submit to my husband as unto Him,when necessary, then that Is what I must do.If I dont agree with it or or 'feel' like it that makes no difference. If God tells the man to lead, then he will give him all the qualities that he needs to do that but like a muscle those qualities need to be used and exercised.
I may not 'feel' like submitting but I am to do it as unto the lord. Its not natural for most women to be submissive, but who said that it would be easy? Its not easy, its often very hard for many, but its Biblical.

As for being down on women, the only women I am down on is those few that I have known who are controlling, bossy and wear the trousers in the family.Its horrible to see. These marriages are rarely happy, in fact I know 2 marriages like this which have ended in divorce. I have
 some lovely godly women friends who I love dearly. I have 2 adult daughters who I love dearly. I loved my mum dearly. I dont like it when women try to be men or take the mans role, and it does happen so much today.


Offline phoebe

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Re: Submission in Marriage
« Reply #67 on: Thu Jul 22, 2010 - 09:32:23 »
Chosenone, Scripture doesn't say that submission is where the wife makes decisions as long as her husband agrees with her, which means, i.e., that she really isn't making any decisions at all as a wife, but rather is being treated like a child where she has to clear everything through an adult first.  So the idea that in those situations where the two of you don't agree on something you yield the decision to your husband is really moot, because he has to approve all decisions, anyway.  That isn't the meaning of hupotasso, the infamous "submit" passage. 

No one says that hupotasso is trying to take the man's role.  We are sharing, rightly and Scripturally so as we are no longer two, but have become one in marriage, sharing the burdens and responsibilities of family and life with our husbands.  Sharing is not taking anything.  It is so very frustrating that this idea is continually perpetuated. 

The connection between those women who are abusive to their husbands needs to be removed from the discussion.  They are no more following Scripture than the man who beats his wife in the name of "submission".  Both have abused Scripture.

It isn't "natural" for women to be "submissive" as you define it because that is not the correct definition.  When taught and practiced as the mutual, life-giving, supporting role that the word means, it is easy to do, no one abuses anyone, it is full of agape, and it works beautifully, peacefully, enduringly.

Offline lonegreywolf20

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Re: Submission in Marriage
« Reply #68 on: Thu Jul 22, 2010 - 09:35:59 »
That is where we disagree Chosen. If we don't agree with something, I will submit to my wife on some occasions and she sumbits to me on some occasions. Those occasions are when one of us has more experience in that area than the other.

Why wouldn't I allow her to make that decision if it's something that she has more experience with? I would be foolish if I didn't allow her to make that decision.

As I have said and will keep saying, not all marriages are the same and not all married couples are called to do the same things in their marriage that you obviously have been called to do. We are all called to do things in our marriage the way that God knows will work for us. Not everyone's marriage will work if the husband has teh final say on things, because no husband knows everything about all things, and that's where the life experiences of the wife come in and where the husband should allow her to make the decision.

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Re: Submission in Marriage
« Reply #69 on: Thu Jul 22, 2010 - 23:07:33 »
The answer is that "submit" has different definitions relative to context. Husbands do not submit to wives "as unto the Lord."

Nor does Ephesians tell everyone to submit to each other "as unto the Lord."

Jesus said to become the "servant of all" to be greatest (the meaning of Ephesian's "submit to each other").

And YET, it is clear we submit to Christ who "submitted" to us in service and love.

To each of us, we KNOW that there is a way that we submit to Christ as our masters (and wives submit to husbands "as unto the Master" in the same way). We also know that Christ submitted to us in purpose. Understanding of those two TYPES and contexts of submission are quite fundamental to Christianity.
Well, yes and no.
We are to submit to each other. A full reading of the Ephesian passage reveals Paul drawing a comparison between the way Christ loves the church and the way husbands are to love their wives: to present them to themselves unblemished, and to do so by being willing to die for them. This is a pretty strong picture of submission it seems to me; one that incorporates care, protection, and nurture.

The six roles used by Paul as examples all explicate his primary concern that they all submit to one another. These are not intended as rules but rather examples of what submitting to one another might look like in that particular social setting. The examples are not the controlling issue but rather the primary issue of submitting to one another - because we are not drunk on wine but filled with the Spirit.



Ah, I think you meant "sex roles."

I agree somewhat, albeit in the sense of what I said previously: in a manner of speaking, each role is a form of "submission." Furthermore, Paul also tells that women should be taught to "love" their husbands elsewhere (that is, husbands are not told to love their wives as if they are the only ones to do so).

Yet, there is nothing wavering from the consistant tune of: "wives submit as to the Lord, Sarah called her husband her master/lord so be like her" etc. There is simply nothing telling husbands to do likewise with their wives.

I believe the essence of the asymmetry lies in the obviousness of Adam and Eve spelled out in 1 Corinthians 11:8-9, and to combine it with the other passages, I mostly see an emphasis on a husband leading and the wife learning to support, respond and follow. Ballroom dancing.  ::nodding:: Yet each are responsible for making the thing work for each other.
No, I meant six roles (wife, husband, child, parent, slave, master). My point is that the discussion of the roles are not the primary import of the text. Rather, the import is our submission to one another.

The six roles are simply examples of how that submission might be played out in our lives. The list is not exhaustive and is only illustrative of the primary point.

Don't build too much theology on an example, losing site of the primary concern of the passsage.

Hm, so would you claim that Paul may as well have said "husbands, submit to your wives as unto God?"
Well, no. There are a couple reasons for my view in response to your question....

a. Paul's comments were culturally specific and therefore it would not be appropriate for, and Paul would not have said, "husbands, submit to your wives as unto God."

b. The purpose of the examples is simply to illustrate the main point that we are all to submit to one another in appropriate ways - to live dignified lives. The examples need not be considered eternal and inflexible in order to make Paul's point to us.

You see, over focusing on the specifics prevents people from grasping the primary point.

I guess that means you also see Christ as being the bride of the church? (or at least, interchangeable in gender for that image)
No, you're continuing to miss the point. The discussion is submission where you find yourself - it isn't eternal roles. The examples given are well, examples, not stringent rules. On the other hand, your question does point to a truth - Christ submitted Himself to the church, and --- this is where it gets tricky --- the church submits to Christ. Ditto for every other example in our text.