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Offline Hot Ice

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Teaching Mutual Submission
« on: May 05, 2010, 10:10:51 PM »
It would seem that any time I heard anyone teaching somebody about mutual submission is after the vows have already been vaguely pronounced, but nonetheless have bound the couple to one another. 

Are any full-time ministers here teaching mutual submission in pre-marital counseling?

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Teaching Mutual Submission
« on: May 05, 2010, 10:10:51 PM »

Offline HRoberson

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Re: Teaching Mutual Submission
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2010, 08:31:12 PM »
Not full-time, but yes.
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Re: Teaching Mutual Submission
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2010, 08:31:12 PM »

Offline Hot Ice

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Re: Teaching Mutual Submission
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2010, 06:33:06 PM »
It's the first time I've heard of such, as I wrote before;  How do the bulk of the men that you counsel respond?

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Re: Teaching Mutual Submission
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2010, 06:33:06 PM »

Offline Cally

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Re: Teaching Mutual Submission
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2010, 07:35:44 PM »
I assume this is over the passage "submit to each other"--which is NOT addressed specifically to husbands and wives.

So I have a question too: do they also teach parents and children to "mutually submit"?
I am in need of being reminded of things that God has already taught me.

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Re: Teaching Mutual Submission
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2010, 07:35:44 PM »

Offline janine

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Re: Teaching Mutual Submission
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2010, 08:21:01 PM »
Or just Christians in general, to each other?
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Re: Teaching Mutual Submission
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2010, 08:21:01 PM »



Offline Hot Ice

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Re: Teaching Mutual Submission
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2010, 02:19:33 PM »
I definitely have heard the Ephesians 5:21 passage used to advocate this more than anything else; but I was wondering about those who teach this as Biblical.

how do the men that are counselled this way respond, when told about it BEFORE they marry, rather than when it is "sprung on them" in crisis marital counseling?

Offline chosenone

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Re: Teaching Mutual Submission
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2010, 03:30:04 PM »
I assume this is over the passage "submit to each other"--which is NOT addressed specifically to husbands and wives.

So I have a question too: do they also teach parents and children to "mutually submit"?
 

Good point Cally.....
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Offline phoebe

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Re: Teaching Mutual Submission
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2010, 05:01:56 PM »
It would seem that any time I heard anyone teaching somebody about mutual submission is after the vows have already been vaguely pronounced, but nonetheless have bound the couple to one another. 

Are any full-time ministers here teaching mutual submission in pre-marital counseling?


Mutual submission is being taught to my church family in classes, sermons, at every opportunity.  It isn't ever something left just for marriage counseling , pre- or post-, but it is a part of both.

We have a distorted understanding of "submission".  It is not just a yielding, but a yielding for the benefit of another before self.  We ignored half of what submission is about, and chaos has followed.

My 22 year-old son and I had a conversation today re: a couple of his friends getting married in July.  The groom is a very laid-back young man,  and his bride is an assertive young woman, takes charge, gets things done, and he likes it that way.  I see trouble for them down the road, even though they seem to be a good match otherwise.  The joke among their friends is that "she wears the pants", as if that is wrong or bad, and the assumed right and good way is for him to wear the pants.  I explained to my son that neither is correct.  The pants have two legs, one for him, and one for her.  In a marriage, in the same pair of pants, you learn to walk in the same direction, in sync with each other.  Going in different directions or making different actions stresses the fabric of the pants.  Too much stress and the pants are ripped apart.  For the good of the pants, and the good of the other leg, one learns how to walk together.  In the end, everyone benefits.  Submission is doing what is best and right for another, rather than pleasing self first.  This works with married couples, with church family (just need more legs),  with parents and children.  We do what is best for another before we do what is best for ourselves.  Sometimes we call them "heroes".

It isn't something to save for marriage counseling.
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Offline Cally

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Re: Teaching Mutual Submission
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2010, 05:17:18 PM »
It would seem that any time I heard anyone teaching somebody about mutual submission is after the vows have already been vaguely pronounced, but nonetheless have bound the couple to one another.  

Are any full-time ministers here teaching mutual submission in pre-marital counseling?


Mutual submission is being taught to my church family in classes, sermons, at every opportunity.  It isn't ever something left just for marriage counseling , pre- or post-, but it is a part of both.

We have a distorted understanding of "submission".  It is not just a yielding, but a yielding for the benefit of another before self.  We ignored half of what submission is about, and chaos has followed.

My 22 year-old son and I had a conversation today re: a couple of his friends getting married in July.  The groom is a very laid-back young man,  and his bride is an assertive young woman, takes charge, gets things done, and he likes it that way.  I see trouble for them down the road, even though they seem to be a good match otherwise.  The joke among their friends is that "she wears the pants", as if that is wrong or bad, and the assumed right and good way is for him to wear the pants.  I explained to my son that neither is correct.  The pants have two legs, one for him, and one for her.  In a marriage, in the same pair of pants, you learn to walk in the same direction, in sync with each other.  Going in different directions or making different actions stresses the fabric of the pants.  Too much stress and the pants are ripped apart.  For the good of the pants, and the good of the other leg, one learns how to walk together.  In the end, everyone benefits.  Submission is doing what is best and right for another, rather than pleasing self first.  This works with married couples, with church family (just need more legs),  with parents and children.  We do what is best for another before we do what is best for ourselves.  Sometimes we call them "heroes".

It isn't something to save for marriage counseling.


Are parents taught to obey their children the exact same way children are commanded to obey their parents? If not, why not?
« Last Edit: May 14, 2010, 06:00:53 PM by Cally »
I am in need of being reminded of things that God has already taught me.

Trust me--I'm not like most people. 90% of the time, I'm straight-faced and it really isn't personal.

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Re: Teaching Mutual Submission
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2010, 05:17:18 PM »

Offline phoebe

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Re: Teaching Mutual Submission
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2010, 10:51:29 PM »
It would seem that any time I heard anyone teaching somebody about mutual submission is after the vows have already been vaguely pronounced, but nonetheless have bound the couple to one another. 

Are any full-time ministers here teaching mutual submission in pre-marital counseling?


Mutual submission is being taught to my church family in classes, sermons, at every opportunity.  It isn't ever something left just for marriage counseling , pre- or post-, but it is a part of both.

We have a distorted understanding of "submission".  It is not just a yielding, but a yielding for the benefit of another before self.  We ignored half of what submission is about, and chaos has followed.

My 22 year-old son and I had a conversation today re: a couple of his friends getting married in July.  The groom is a very laid-back young man,  and his bride is an assertive young woman, takes charge, gets things done, and he likes it that way.  I see trouble for them down the road, even though they seem to be a good match otherwise.  The joke among their friends is that "she wears the pants", as if that is wrong or bad, and the assumed right and good way is for him to wear the pants.  I explained to my son that neither is correct.  The pants have two legs, one for him, and one for her.  In a marriage, in the same pair of pants, you learn to walk in the same direction, in sync with each other.  Going in different directions or making different actions stresses the fabric of the pants.  Too much stress and the pants are ripped apart.  For the good of the pants, and the good of the other leg, one learns how to walk together.  In the end, everyone benefits.  Submission is doing what is best and right for another, rather than pleasing self first.  This works with married couples, with church family (just need more legs),  with parents and children.  We do what is best for another before we do what is best for ourselves.  Sometimes we call them "heroes".

It isn't something to save for marriage counseling.


Are parents taught to obey their children the exact same way children are commanded to obey their parents? If not, why not?

Read my post again, please.  Submission is not about obedience.  Submission and obedience are not the same thing.   So your question does not apply here.

"IMO"

I have one Head, and one Head only-Jesus Christ

Offline Cally

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Re: Teaching Mutual Submission
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2010, 10:58:13 PM »


Are parents taught to obey their children the exact same way children are commanded to obey their parents? If not, why not?

Read my post again, please.  Submission is not about obedience.  Submission and obedience are not the same thing.   So your question does not apply here.



Your post makes sense, and I agree with the way you define "submit" in the context of Ephesians. (although not the "wear the pants" analogy)

But I see the husband/wife relationship as asymmetrical, similar to the way that I see the parent/child relationship as asymmetrical. Scripture says both: "wives obey your husbands in everything" and "children obey your parents in everything."

Parents submit to their children in the sense of putting their interests first. Husbands may submit to their wives in the sense of putting their interests first. However, children obey their parents, not vice-versa. And wives obey their husbands, not vice-versa.
I am in need of being reminded of things that God has already taught me.

Trust me--I'm not like most people. 90% of the time, I'm straight-faced and it really isn't personal.

Offline phoebe

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Re: Teaching Mutual Submission
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2010, 11:41:38 PM »


Are parents taught to obey their children the exact same way children are commanded to obey their parents? If not, why not?

Read my post again, please.  Submission is not about obedience.  Submission and obedience are not the same thing.   So your question does not apply here.



Your post makes sense, and I agree with the way you define "submit" in the context of Ephesians. (although not the "wear the pants" analogy)

But I see the husband/wife relationship as asymmetrical, similar to the way that I see the parent/child relationship as asymmetrical. Scripture says both: "wives obey your husbands in everything" and "children obey your parents in everything."

Parents submit to their children in the sense of putting their interests first. Husbands may submit to their wives in the sense of putting their interests first. However, children obey their parents, not vice-versa. And wives obey their husbands, not vice-versa.

Can you tell me, please, the verse you refer?
Quote
"wives obey your husbands in everything" and "children obey your parents in everything."
 

I do not know where it says "Wives, obey your husbands."  What version are you using?

As for the one about children obeying parents, Col. 3:20?  The word translated as "obey" is hupakouō, and means "pay attention to". 


(But the OP question is about mutual submission, not about obedience, mutual or otherwise.)
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Offline Cally

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Re: Teaching Mutual Submission
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2010, 12:10:46 AM »
Ephesians 5:24--says "be subject in everything" in the KJV I forget which translation used the word obey."
I am in need of being reminded of things that God has already taught me.

Trust me--I'm not like most people. 90% of the time, I'm straight-faced and it really isn't personal.

Offline phoebe

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Re: Teaching Mutual Submission
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2010, 11:00:33 AM »
Ephesians 5:24--says "be subject in everything" in the KJV I forget which translation used the word obey."

I searched a number of translations and couldn't find it translated as "obey".  Doesn't matter which one, that is an incorrect translation, anyway.

hupotasso, a participle, is "support".  A wife "supports" her husband.  The verb in this passage is "be filled" in v. 21. 

It must fit within the larger context of of everyone supporting one another out of respect for Christ.  If the submission between husband-wife is a one-way street, two things must happen:  1) he is not living with the indwelling Spirit, and 2) he is not becoming one with his wife.  Both of these are in conflict with v. 21 and 31.
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Offline Hot Ice

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Re: Teaching Mutual Submission
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2010, 01:11:21 AM »
In all fairness and respect, my OP was not asking for an explanation of what mutual submission is, nor whether or not anyone should do it, whether or not anyone needs to be straightened out, regarding it. 

I had asked if any full-time ministers had taught it BEFORE "I do", not waiting until afterward.  An argument of whether it is Biblical is just not for this thread, as there are several others for that.