Author Topic: Two kinds of christians.  (Read 27094 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline ejected

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 69
  • Manna: 5
Two kinds of christians.
« on: Fri Dec 23, 2011 - 14:57:12 »
There are 2 kinds of christians. Those that hear the Spirit. Those who don't. The twain shall never meet. Neither can 'two walk together except they agree.'  The majority are the ones that cannot hear. A remnant/few who does hear. The first century christians had the same problem. Drove Paul crazy. It got so bad that Paul concluded with 'all the 'churches'/ekklesia's in Asia have forsaken me.' This will be the outcome for those who truly hear Him. They'll sit alone. What say you? God bless. 

Christian Forums and Message Board

Two kinds of christians.
« on: Fri Dec 23, 2011 - 14:57:12 »

Offline stevehut

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3769
  • Manna: 70
  • Gender: Male
Re: Two kinds of christians.
« Reply #1 on: Fri Dec 23, 2011 - 15:05:52 »
Not sure I understand the point here.  ???

How can a person who doesn't hear the Spirit, be called a Christian?

Offline MeMyself

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15980
  • Manna: 382
  • Gender: Female
Re: Two kinds of christians.
« Reply #2 on: Fri Dec 23, 2011 - 15:10:15 »
Not sure I understand the point here.  ???

How can a person who doesn't hear the Spirit, be called a Christian?

 ::headscratch:: me neither, because I was think thing the same thing. How *can* one who doesn't hear the Sprit's call be a Christian?

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Two kinds of christians.
« Reply #2 on: Fri Dec 23, 2011 - 15:10:15 »

HRoberson

  • Guest
Re: Two kinds of christians.
« Reply #3 on: Fri Dec 23, 2011 - 15:22:31 »
When the stuff hits the fan, some folks don't hang around; and it's hard to maintain enthusiasm for more than a week.

I'm not at all sure that those behaviors equate to "not hearing the Spirit."

Offline ejected

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 69
  • Manna: 5
Re: Two kinds of christians.
« Reply #4 on: Fri Dec 23, 2011 - 17:17:49 »
I'll throw out an example. Untold thousands of born again christians will support and follow a charlatan/wolf. Are they hearing 'what saith the Lord'?

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Two kinds of christians.
« Reply #4 on: Fri Dec 23, 2011 - 17:17:49 »



Offline stevehut

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3769
  • Manna: 70
  • Gender: Male
Re: Two kinds of christians.
« Reply #5 on: Sat Dec 24, 2011 - 02:29:48 »
Ejected, could it be that they're not Christians?

bemark

  • Guest
Re: Two kinds of christians.
« Reply #6 on: Sat Dec 24, 2011 - 03:27:47 »
Maybe,  really there are those who hear or pick up  more often than others,  what  is being said by God all the time,  because they press in and seek.They all heard the call to be saved so the spiritual door ear is and has become open.

Now the problem with those who need to hear the voice of God all the time is.  they can  mix up his and there's,  so they can be lead into deception,  so the word must be the anchor.Or other wise we just get God said to me so it must be so.

Offline ejected

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 69
  • Manna: 5
Re: Two kinds of christians.
« Reply #7 on: Sat Dec 24, 2011 - 11:38:26 »
I think of the 7 churches in Rev.. I believe they are all christians but not all are hearing or understanding God's intent and purpose. Sardis held the stand that 'they were alive' yet they were dead.'Saved yes but without a clear connection to God's 'still small voice'. Today is no different. I remember the first church we walked into after salvation. A baptist church. Born again. I got a red light immediately about the 'pastor' in my spirit. God impressed on me that he was a bigot. I was trying,at the time, to win this black man on the job to Christ. So I tested the 'pastor'. I asked him if it would be alright for me to invite this man to church. The 'pastor' said 'No. blacks should go to church with other blacks, white with whites.' The assistant 'pastor' also said that blacks were meant to be slaves because of their big noses. Whoopie. My first experience with a 'born again' 'pastor'. Yes he was a christian. Was he hearing from God?
  We left that church and headed for another one in search of the 'real deal'. I think of that congregation. Like little tweety birds sitting in their rows, submitting to this 'pastor's' insanity. Were these christians able to hear God's voice? Maybe they were but just didn't know how to tell between God's voice and man's. I realize this is an extreme example. The churches we had been in since that first beginning were in error in other departments. It was a hard row to hoe but a learning experience.
  So I submit that the mass majority of christendom cannot hear God's voice from the enemy. Remember Paul's warnings on this. Some in the very midst of the body of Christ will rise up and lead many astray. Many will follow after teachers having itching ears. Seducers, decievers, those that twist the scriptures to their own destruction. Preaching that when you gain it must mean you are godly. Devouring widows houses[demanding tithes from widows] and griding the face of the poor with the same.
  Creating traditions of men that make null and void the word of God. Taking worldly authority over the sheep creating  2-classes of christians, the upper clerical and the lower laity which is unscriptual but mighty profitable to those that position themselves in that upper chamber. Lording it over His heritage for gain and esteem.
  Gotta rest my indexes.
 
 

Offline gbzone

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2484
  • Manna: 53
  • Gender: Male
Re: Two kinds of christians.
« Reply #8 on: Sat Apr 14, 2012 - 10:57:34 »
Not sure I understand the point here.  ???

How can a person who doesn't hear the Spirit, be called a Christian?

Was it not to christians  that paul adressed as beign carnal? IN Corinth,
 That were still in need of milk  and to be taught  when they shoudl be teachers of that milk and wantign meat.
The basic problem is that today the impression is given that as soon as you are BORN again you have a spiritual mind .Well it maybe but it needs to be fed and instructed with spiritual food.
For then why does paul say in another place  "Be ye transformed by the renewal of your minds" Again there is alot of subjection of the scriptures to the natural and carnal mind both in theolgical seminars and pulpits also rather than  subjectign the mind of man to the Spirit and Word of God. If the congregation is fed purely on an interlectual level   then  that is all that is reached and ther eis no growth and devlopment.
To get back to ye are yet carnal is quite a serios matter for to be carnaly minded is death and a carnal mind cannot receive the things of God.
If there be fornication and strive and vain debate and the like then it is carnality.
How can a BORNagain christian  act or think in such a manner.because the MIND has not been renewed as thier heart has.
Moreover  Paul speaks of the milk of the Word. In Hebrews he gives a list of what eh considers is the milk. With all seriosness  and gneraly speaking there is not much else preached on save on these subjects.Although they need to be but it still the milk.
1Jhn speaks of "little children"  your sins are forgiven and You know the father"  Yet can it be said that a little child does not knwo thier father  but what do thez know:? That thez love them anc ares and provides  for them .They also   come and go. Yet theY do not know where he goes or what work he does and or why. They know then his "acts but not his ways"
It takes a measure of maturity to understand that your father goes out to work etc. Moreover a little child has to coem to understand the world does not revolve around them.Yet they are still loved.
Then You have "young men the word of God dwelleth in you an d you have overcome the wicked one" any church  would greatly profit to have such a few young men I think. Yet I wonder how often it is preached on_?
But still young men used to follow in thier fathers footsteps and trade or business and the father used to teach them some still do. Thus what the sons"... saw the father doing that do I"
Then there are fathers "ye know Him who is from the begining" I dont think today the Church which is His  knows HIm who is from the begining.
There are a lot of little children. There may be indeed a few young men .But there are even less who know Him who is for the beginning.
That is how and why you cna have christians who have not learnt to recognise and then listen and obey the Holy Ghost and by practice have learnt what is good and what is evil.

In Christ

Gerald

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Two kinds of christians.
« Reply #8 on: Sat Apr 14, 2012 - 10:57:34 »

larry2

  • Guest
Re: Two kinds of christians.
« Reply #9 on: Sat Apr 14, 2012 - 15:24:18 »

 That were still in need of milk  and to be taught  when they shoudl be teachers of that milk and wantign meat.
The basic problem is that today the impression is given that as soon as you are BORN again you have a spiritual mind .Well it maybe but it needs to be fed and instructed with spiritual food.
For then why does paul say in another place  "Be ye transformed by the renewal of your minds" Again there is alot of subjection of the scriptures to the natural and carnal mind both in theolgical seminars and pulpits also rather than  subjectign the mind of man to the Spirit and Word of God. If the congregation is fed purely on an interlectual level   then  that is all that is reached and ther eis no growth and devlopment.
To get back to ye are yet carnal is quite a serios matter for to be carnaly minded is death and a carnal mind cannot receive the things of God.
If there be fornication and strive and vain debate and the like then it is carnality.
How can a BORNagain christian  act or think in such a manner.because the MIND has not been renewed as thier heart has.
Moreover  Paul speaks of the milk of the Word. In Hebrews he gives a list of what eh considers is the milk. With all seriosness  and gneraly speaking there is not much else preached on save on these subjects.Although they need to be but it still the milk.
1Jhn speaks of "little children"  your sins are forgiven and You know the father"  Yet can it be said that a little child does not knwo thier father  but what do thez know:? That thez love them anc ares and provides  for them .They also   come and go. Yet theY do not know where he goes or what work he does and or why. They know then his "acts but not his ways"
It takes a measure of maturity to understand that your father goes out to work etc. Moreover a little child has to coem to understand the world does not revolve around them.Yet they are still loved.
Then You have "young men the word of God dwelleth in you an d you have overcome the wicked one" any church  would greatly profit to have such a few young men I think. Yet I wonder how often it is preached on_?
But still young men used to follow in thier fathers footsteps and trade or business and the father used to teach them some still do. Thus what the sons"... saw the father doing that do I"
Then there are fathers "ye know Him who is from the begining" I dont think today the Church which is His  knows HIm who is from the begining.
There are a lot of little children. There may be indeed a few young men .But there are even less who know Him who is for the beginning.
That is how and why you cna have christians who have not learnt to recognise and then listen and obey the Holy Ghost and by practice have learnt what is good and what is evil.

In Christ

Gerald

1 John 2:13  I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.

1 John 2:14  I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
 
I see a correlation between "Little children", "Young men", and "Fathers" as growth in the will of God we read of in Romans.

Romans 12:2  And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that "Good", and "Acceptable", and "Perfect", will of God.

Could this be the growth of 2 Peter 3:18?  But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 

Offline gbzone

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2484
  • Manna: 53
  • Gender: Male
Re: Two kinds of christians.
« Reply #10 on: Mon Apr 16, 2012 - 08:40:46 »

 That were still in need of milk  and to be taught  when they shoudl be teachers of that milk and wantign meat.
The basic problem is that today the impression is given that as soon as you are BORN again you have a spiritual mind .Well it maybe but it needs to be fed and instructed with spiritual food.
For then why does paul say in another place  "Be ye transformed by the renewal of your minds" Again there is alot of subjection of the scriptures to the natural and carnal mind both in theolgical seminars and pulpits also rather than  subjectign the mind of man to the Spirit and Word of God. If the congregation is fed purely on an interlectual level   then  that is all that is reached and ther eis no growth and devlopment.
To get back to ye are yet carnal is quite a serios matter for to be carnaly minded is death and a carnal mind cannot receive the things of God.
If there be fornication and strive and vain debate and the like then it is carnality.
How can a BORNagain christian  act or think in such a manner.because the MIND has not been renewed as thier heart has.
Moreover  Paul speaks of the milk of the Word. In Hebrews he gives a list of what eh considers is the milk. With all seriosness  and gneraly speaking there is not much else preached on save on these subjects.Although they need to be but it still the milk.
1Jhn speaks of "little children"  your sins are forgiven and You know the father"  Yet can it be said that a little child does not knwo thier father  but what do thez know:? That thez love them anc ares and provides  for them .They also   come and go. Yet theY do not know where he goes or what work he does and or why. They know then his "acts but not his ways"
It takes a measure of maturity to understand that your father goes out to work etc. Moreover a little child has to coem to understand the world does not revolve around them.Yet they are still loved.
Then You have "young men the word of God dwelleth in you an d you have overcome the wicked one" any church  would greatly profit to have such a few young men I think. Yet I wonder how often it is preached on_?
But still young men used to follow in thier fathers footsteps and trade or business and the father used to teach them some still do. Thus what the sons"... saw the father doing that do I"
Then there are fathers "ye know Him who is from the begining" I dont think today the Church which is His  knows HIm who is from the begining.
There are a lot of little children. There may be indeed a few young men .But there are even less who know Him who is for the beginning.
That is how and why you cna have christians who have not learnt to recognise and then listen and obey the Holy Ghost and by practice have learnt what is good and what is evil.

In Christ

Gerald

1 John 2:13  I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.

1 John 2:14  I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
 
I see a correlation between "Little children", "Young men", and "Fathers" as growth in the will of God we read of in Romans.

Romans 12:2  And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that "Good", and "Acceptable", and "Perfect", will of God.

Could this be the growth of 2 Peter 3:18?  But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 

Yes I do think so.
If you want to get people saved you preach the Word on Salvation.
ON healing health and so on  you have to preach it.
For the growth and development on Christian character and maturity you have to preach it also.

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14330
  • Manna: 190
  • Gender: Male
  • My grandson Arturus
Re: Two kinds of christians.
« Reply #11 on: Mon Apr 16, 2012 - 10:26:26 »
Quote
Paul speaks of the milk of the Word. In Hebrews....
Paul did not write Hebrews. It was penned after his death.

larry2

  • Guest
Re: Two kinds of christians.
« Reply #12 on: Mon Apr 16, 2012 - 16:02:31 »
Quote from: gbzone

Paul speaks of the milk of the Word. In Hebrews he gives a list of what he considers is the milk.


Quote from: DaveW

Paul did not write Hebrews. It was penned after his death.


In context with "Milk of the word, in 1 Corinthians 3:2 Paul told the Corinthians he could not yet feed them the solid food of the bible because they were not yet able to bear it.

Paul authored fourteen books of the New Testament which are considered "His gospel;" a part of the one Gospel of God revealed to him by Jesus Christ according to Galatians 1:12, though he didn't personally write all of them.

Many don't attribute the "Epistle of Hebrews" to the Apostle Paul, but 2 Thessalonians 3:17-18 says, "The salutation of Paul with mine own hand, which is the token in every epistle: so I write. (18) The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen." This is the way Paul signed off in his letters to these different churches, and Hebrews 13:25 closes with "Grace be with you all. Amen."

Hebrews 10:34 says "For ye had compassion of me in my bonds." To me and others, these examples indicate Paul authored Hebrews also.

Offline chosenone

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 30908
  • Manna: 538
  • Gender: Female
Re: Two kinds of christians.
« Reply #13 on: Mon Apr 16, 2012 - 16:50:22 »
There is only one type of Christian, Gods child. Everyone is either Gods child or not, and if they are, they are a Christian. Simple.  Any time that a person says that there are two types of Christians, they include themselves in the so called 'good' and 'proper' ones of course.

Offline gbzone

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2484
  • Manna: 53
  • Gender: Male
Re: Two kinds of christians.
« Reply #14 on: Tue Apr 17, 2012 - 09:11:38 »
It is no wonder that the church  is in so much confusion.

Even if you was right (which I do not accept) are you saying that what is written there is therefor wrong?

Offline gbzone

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2484
  • Manna: 53
  • Gender: Male
Re: Two kinds of christians.
« Reply #15 on: Tue Apr 17, 2012 - 09:14:04 »
I do not accept  the premise that he did not write it.
But are you then implying  by the argument you presented that that letter  and its argument and conclusions is therefore wrong?

Offline gbzone

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2484
  • Manna: 53
  • Gender: Male
Re: Two kinds of christians.
« Reply #16 on: Tue Apr 17, 2012 - 09:31:29 »
This   flies on the evidence that all the scriptures present to the contrary.

Was not LOT counted rightous? "For his rightous soul was vexed...."
Yet clearly he was in the wrong place at the wrong time and was blind to the hour and unaware of what God was about to do.
WHY?
Because he walked by sight and not by faith.
In the beginning  he was as blessed by God as Abaraham (or maybe because of Aabraham?)For the land was not able to  bare them both for they both had so much stock.
Thus Abaraham said if you go that way I will go this way and if you go this way I ll go that way,.
It did not matter to Aabraham which way he went he walked by faith and God was with him.
Lot on the other hand walked by sight. He choice accordignt o his own perceptions and reasonings. and thus "Pitched his tent towards Sodom"
The next tiem you hear of him  he is captured WITH them adn the next time he is living among them and a judge  in the city.
Yet with all that he was totaly unaware of what "God was about to do"
Abraham  on the other hand walkign by faITH   was in a place God coudl tell him  and so He did. So Abaraham prayed and interesceded for LOT.
It is worth noting that Lots reluctance  speaks more of where his heart was than much else.
Moreover  by the end of things he had lost everything  but the salvation of his own soul.
Is it not wriotten that soemn will sufefr loss as through fire?
are they not 'saved'? Yes are they not counted rightous ? yes. BUT.
What then of the over 2000000 who came out of Egypt?
Was  not the promise to them all? Yes.
But how many  entered  into the promsie who came out of Egypt.................................2..... .........................................
WHy? because they beleived the wrong message.
Paul said  they believed not God. and warned" lest we also ......."
How then can you say all are the same?
For when God said go in and take the land for I haev given it to you.
Clearly  he expected them that they shoudl eb ready.and by the two faithfull witnesses  proves that they could have been,.
But wehre again  the 10 spies who saw the same things as the the other two saw them in the light of tjhier own reasonings and perceptions (by sight then)  and had forgotten the last 40 DAYS!!!!!
Where as the the 2 other spies who were wal;kign by faith and not by sight.saw the same things  but in the true light  of what God had done in ther past who it was who was with them in the opresent and what God had promsied for the future and in THAT light said and did accordingly.
Those two entered into the promise. and so did the next generation.

Can it be said  that a church that says "I am rich and increased with goods and in need of nothing " andc in danger of beign spewed out of Gods mouth into the great tribulation  be said to eb the same as the philadelhpian or ephsian church?

Is it not written we have been called to a HIGH calling? I fear then we set our sights to low.

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14330
  • Manna: 190
  • Gender: Male
  • My grandson Arturus
Re: Two kinds of christians.
« Reply #17 on: Tue Apr 17, 2012 - 10:00:55 »
I do not accept  the premise that he did not write it.
But are you then implying  by the argument you presented that that letter  and its argument and conclusions is therefore wrong?
Let me address the 2nd sentance first.

I am not saying that at all.  I fully agree that the foundations listed in Heb 6.1-3 (that you equate with "milk" at end of chapter 5) need to be taught and solidified and moved on past.  I do not agree that they are taught presently - maybe only 2 or 3 out of the 6 listed.

Now as to you not accepting that Paul did not write Hebrews, let me remind you that he died in either 65 or 66 ad, and most scholars put the writing a couple of years after that, but before the destruction of the temple in 70.

Couple with that the clear (even in english translation) difference in writing style - Paul being described as rough in words but Hebrews has such soaring language.  That author was a seasoned writer and orator. (like Apollos?)

Then there is the problem of audience.  Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles but Hebrews was addressed to Messianic Jews - Hebrew people who believed in Jesus. Peter was the primary apostle to the Jews but again the linguistic style does not fit with his letters.

Since scripture NEVER SAYS who actually wrote it, it must not be a point of doctrine either way.  But to me, the timing and style point to Apollos or perhaps Barnabas.  Both had a link to Paul doctrinally.

Offline ejected

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 69
  • Manna: 5
Re: Two kinds of christians.
« Reply #18 on: Tue Apr 17, 2012 - 14:01:54 »
Of course there is only one salvation, one born from above christian. You are missing completely my point. I cannot explain it any better. So you attack me. No further discussion with you will result in any headway.

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14330
  • Manna: 190
  • Gender: Male
  • My grandson Arturus
Re: Two kinds of christians.
« Reply #19 on: Wed Apr 18, 2012 - 11:25:34 »
No - ejected - I am not attacking you.  I am trying to help you make your point on solid scriptural grounds and not on a human guess (on the authorship of Hebrews).

I totally agree that hearing the voice of God is of vital import, I even preached a series of 3 sermons on it last year.

Offline gbzone

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2484
  • Manna: 53
  • Gender: Male
Re: Two kinds of christians.
« Reply #20 on: Fri Apr 20, 2012 - 10:24:14 »
Well ,Im so glad to hear that.But sad that only 2 or 3 are preached on still. and not more besides.

As to scholars?In these days is it the same scholars who say we have so much better understanding that according to "thier own understanding" they bring out so many versions that many pick and choose what is right in thier own eyes?
If we have so much better understanding how is it the church is not more holy? and we who have so much do not do so much as they ate the reformation did with so little?
I supoose it might be argued  that who wrote the letter to the hebrews  is not important.  But I would not agree. As to soaring language what hights did he soar when in Romans he expressed  his understanding of Gods eternal plan for those same hebrews I have not heard higher!
Why should  he not soar when writign to his own people when he speaks of those very things written in the very life blood and fabic of hsi own people.
Moreover  accordign to your knowledge of these scholars I dont doubt you ;have them say acouple of years  after!¬  They have no idea at all nor indeed have the capabality of assesing soemthing with in a year or two of an event unless they had soem FIRM facts.IF IT WAS SO FIRM WHY THEN  THE YEAR OR TWO?
Moreover  by what method  did they come by such a conclusion?
While I do not hold to 'traditions ' save verifiable  by all scripture  It has always been held to be written by Paul and only since the 19th century? has it ben questioned.
If hebrews was not written by paul  why then Exodus may not have been written by Moses? etc. Why then ;we must also doubt  wether it was inspired by the Holy Spirit?
To be honest while I have no doubt in true spiritual scholership.  I do doubt in the most serios way and in many cases reject  many modern day scholars who subject to the scriptures to thier own wisdom and reasoning  rathe rthan the other way around.
So ill hold to precept as i received it .That it was written by Paul.

In Christ

gerald

Offline ejected

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 69
  • Manna: 5
Re: Two kinds of christians.
« Reply #21 on: Fri Apr 20, 2012 - 10:37:43 »
Dave i was answering someone else's post, not yours. When i hit reply i was hoping that persons comment would be submitted before my answer.

Offline gbzone

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2484
  • Manna: 53
  • Gender: Male
Re: Two kinds of christians.
« Reply #22 on: Sun Apr 29, 2012 - 16:48:58 »
No - ejected - I am not attacking you.  I am trying to help you make your point on solid scriptural grounds and not on a human guess (on the authorship of Hebrews).

I totally agree that hearing the voice of God is of vital import, I even preached a series of 3 sermons on it last year.

Not sure if this is directed at me.?
I think the matetr of the authorship of hebrews is a red herring.
While it is important it is not important in relating to the question in hand.Thus my question to some was if it is doubbted is it also doubted as to the conclusiosn of the author;)
Aparently not?

Yet I wonder at the wisdom of sayign such things and or indeed saying often in one form or another  that "the orginal texts  says.." (or so it is supposd)WHY do the serpents work with a "yea hath God said " sort of thing.


I will stil therefore hold to paul beign the author. and that his exaltation is akin also to that which he wrote the letters to the romans and got to the passage where he speaks of God eternal plan for the jews andi ts fiullfillment as a "rising from the dead"!
The orginal question was  how can ther ebe two sorts of christians?
How quickly were we diverted!


In Christ
gerald

Offline 7angels

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 20
  • Manna: 1
Re: Two kinds of christians.
« Reply #23 on: Sun Jun 10, 2012 - 17:39:28 »
it matters little who wrote hebrews but that we gain the wisdom and revelation within the book.  now in answer to the opening statement about 2 kinds of christians is true.  there are those that walk by the spirit and those that walk according to the world.  it is sad that there are so many christians but according to statistics only about 8% are overcomer christians.  preaching the word is great but how about teaching the word?  today we worry about getting people saved and then leave them alone and go find more unsaved to convert.  getting people saved is well and good but if we don't disciple the christian babies(those new to christ) then we are neglecting our positions.  when people get saved we are responsible for them.  the exception to this rule are evangelists who bring people to the Lord and the local churches need to step up and do the teaching. 

also a lot of our priorities are messed up.  we put our ministry before our families which is unscriptural.  how is God able to trust us with his flock when we cannot even rule our own household properly.  according to statistics 75% of all children who's parent(s) are in the ministry do not follow the Lord when they grow up  to be adults. 

i pray and i am believing for revival but until we are able to handle the baby christians that join then revival will never happen for you.  God will not give you new people only to see you throw them to the wolves(back into the world).  this current generation is not being trained in the way of the Lord.  they are told how to act but then the parents go out and do exactly as the kids are taught not to do.  these actions serve to push these kids further from God and as a result they eventually quit believing in God.   

a person can be saved and yet never live in the promises of God.  it is sad but true.  the parable of the seed shows us what a soft and hard heart look like.  i know very few christians who live the victorious life that is described within the word of God.  but does that mean everyone else will go to hell?  the answer is no because it is not by our works we are saved by but by faith that Jesus is Lord and that he die and rose again. 

God bless

Offline ejected

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 69
  • Manna: 5
Re: Two kinds of christians.
« Reply #24 on: Sun Jun 10, 2012 - 22:12:54 »
What my wife and I have been talking about recently is the lack of natural affection in the 'body'. This is due to the absence of the Spirit in our gatherings. This is due to damning doctrine that puts curses in the brother's and sister's lives. This quenches the Spirit. Also the clerical/laity mode of operation. Read: Laodecian doctrine. Thank God He is writing Ichabod on the church house doors. This is because God is working to wake the 'body' up from it's slumber and sleep and get us back to Paul's directions for 'body' life and true fellowship with Christ as Head and not 'Pastor Onthetake' as head.

HRoberson

  • Guest
Re: Two kinds of christians.
« Reply #25 on: Mon Jun 25, 2012 - 14:55:03 »
There are Christians and there are those who aren't.

Paul and Jesus both make it plain that growth in the Spirit is a process over time. Not all Christians are at the same point in that process.

Doesn't mean they're not listening; it means they haven't grown into the Spirit.

Sometimes life's pressures make living the life hard and almost impossible. It doesn't have anything to do with not hearing, but making choices. The history of the church is rampant with the challenges of living in the Life in the midst of life.

The Spirit does not literally compel you to do anything.

Offline gbzone

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2484
  • Manna: 53
  • Gender: Male
Re: Two kinds of christians.
« Reply #26 on: Wed Aug 15, 2012 - 03:10:57 »
Not sure I understand the point here.  ???

How can a person who doesn't hear the Spirit, be called a Christian?

The only two k,kinds of Christian is as it is written.
The carnal christian and the spiritual one.
They who walk by sight and they who walk by faith.

The two types are like unto Enoch and Noah and Abraham and Lot.

The very serious consequences of being "yet carnal " is to not to be able to receive the things of God and to be at enmity with the will and purposes of God.
Moreover it brings death.

It was to Christians Paul was speaking to when he said "ye are yet carnal"

in Christ

Gerald

Offline gbzone

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2484
  • Manna: 53
  • Gender: Male
Re: Two kinds of christians.
« Reply #27 on: Wed Aug 15, 2012 - 03:12:12 »
There are Christians and there are those who aren't.

Paul and Jesus both make it plain that growth in the Spirit is a process over time. Not all Christians are at the same point in that process.

Doesn't mean they're not listening; it means they haven't grown into the Spirit.

Sometimes life's pressures make living the life hard and almost impossible. It doesn't have anything to do with not hearing, but making choices. The history of the church is rampant with the challenges of living in the Life in the midst of life.

The Spirit does not literally compel you to do anything.

The kingdom of God is like unto a sower........." and some fell among weeds which choked it. They being the cares of this world

The Spirit does not compell you to do anything?
What say you to "he was DRIVEN into the wilderness......" True it says in an other place he was LED .
But " I MUST needs go to........."

There is a compulsion of the Holy Spirit  that compells you to action.
 He was LED into the wilderness but he was also driven to it.
« Last Edit: Wed Aug 15, 2012 - 03:15:16 by gbzone »

Offline gbzone

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2484
  • Manna: 53
  • Gender: Male
Re: Two kinds of christians.
« Reply #28 on: Wed Aug 15, 2012 - 03:26:03 »
it matters little who wrote Hebrews but that we gain the wisdom and revelation within the book.  now in answer to the opening statement about 2 kinds of Christians is true.  there are those that walk by the spirit and those that walk according to the world.  it is sad that there are so many Christians but according to statistics only about 8% are overcomer Christians.  preaching the word is great but how about teaching the word?  today we worry about getting people saved and then leave them alone and go find more unsaved to convert.  getting people saved is well and good but if we don't disciple the christian babies(those new to Christ) then we are neglecting our positions.  when people get saved we are responsible for them.  the exception to this rule are evangelists who bring people to the Lord and the local churches need to step up and do the teaching. 

also a lot of our priorities are messed up.  we put our ministry before our families which is unscriptural.  how is God able to trust us with his flock when we cannot even rule our own household properly.  according to statistics 75% of all children who's parent(s) are in the ministry do not follow the Lord when they grow up  to be adults. 

i pray and i am believing for revival but until we are able to handle the baby Christians that join then revival will never happen for you.  God will not give you new people only to see you throw them to the wolves(back into the world).  this current generation is not being trained in the way of the Lord.  they are told how to act but then the parents go out and do exactly as the kids are taught not to do.  these actions serve to push these kids further from God and as a result they eventually quit believing in God.   

a person can be saved and yet never live in the promises of God.  it is sad but true.  the parable of the seed shows us what a soft and hard heart look like.  i know very few Christians who live the victorious life that is described within the word of God.  but does that mean everyone else will go to hell?  the answer is no because it is not by our works we are saved by but by faith that Jesus is Lord and that he die and rose again. 

God bless

When I got converted .The pastor who loved my soul enough to weep for it  later said that as to being BORNagain most pastors agree .But in all other matters  there are as many opinions as their are pastors.
I have also spoken to some theological students going to a college who told me they were taught  every "ISM" going. and every opinion  or school of thought as to the last days the rapture etc.
If then  budding pastors are taught like this how on earth is the church be any better?
How is it that a theological seminar  (most of them it seems)  does not know what the truth is  and then preach/teach it to their students and budding pastors?
For has not the Holy Ghost come? and was sit not promised He will lead us into all truth?How is it then we are in a reverse reformation? That  all manner of false doctrines are gaining ground in the church?
How is it the people of God seem unable to tell a false prophet or an apostle from a real one?

Hebrews gives a list of what Paul said was the MILK of the word.
In all honesty  how much more is ever preached upon?
if all the church is getting is milk  then they are not being made ready for the coming of the Lord.
I have also heard pastors tell me that if they preached the meat they would lose half their congregation.
Then I say lose them.,
For not only are you deceiving them who will not receive the truth.
But are also   changing the whole spirit of the church  by having more unbelievers than believers.
Preach the whole council of God in the holy ghost and let the Holy spirit do the separation.


in Christ

Gerald

Offline chosenone

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 30908
  • Manna: 538
  • Gender: Female
Re: Two kinds of christians.
« Reply #29 on: Wed Aug 15, 2012 - 03:58:17 »
There are Christians and there are those who aren't.

Paul and Jesus both make it plain that growth in the Spirit is a process over time. Not all Christians are at the same point in that process.

Doesn't mean they're not listening; it means they haven't grown into the Spirit.

Sometimes life's pressures make living the life hard and almost impossible. It doesn't have anything to do with not hearing, but making choices. The history of the church is rampant with the challenges of living in the Life in the midst of life.

The Spirit does not literally compel you to do anything.


 Exactly, and ALL of us are on that scale between the 'carnal' and 'spiritual' Christian. However we ALL fall short of course. There is no such thing as a Christian who is no longer 'carnal' in some way.
« Last Edit: Wed Aug 15, 2012 - 06:27:06 by chosenone »

Offline gbzone

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2484
  • Manna: 53
  • Gender: Male
Re: Two kinds of christians.
« Reply #30 on: Wed Aug 15, 2012 - 06:42:33 »
There are Christians and there are those who aren't.

Paul and Jesus both make it plain that growth in the Spirit is a process over time. Not all Christians are at the same point in that process.

Doesn't mean they're not listening; it means they haven't grown into the Spirit.

Sometimes life's pressures make living the life hard and almost impossible. It doesn't have anything to do with not hearing, but making choices. The history of the church is rampant with the challenges of living in the Life in the midst of life.

The Spirit does not literally compel you to do anything.


 Exactly, and ALL of us are on that scale between the 'carnal' and 'spiritual' Christian. However we ALL fall short of course. There is no such thing as a Christian who is no longer 'carnal' in some way.

That has to be qualified greatly.Or clarified.

For one thing the flesh is wholy carnal. in THAT respect  yes you are right.
But then what of "if ye walk in the spirit  then you wil not fullfill the lusts of the flesh"?
I see no  room for dual personalities  in scripture.
Paul said to those who were "yet carnal"  to be spiritual!

Is not the Spirit to dominate or keep under the flesh?
Another aspect  that needs to eb claryfied.
Is that a new BORNagain child of God is much like a natural born. often soiled always hungry.
But are we not to grow in grace and in the knowldge of God?
What is acceptable almost  in a babe is not acceptable in a toddler. and what is acceptable in a toddler is not in a teenager.
By acceptable I mean that is is normal in that level of maturity but children are meant to grow to maturity.
So that  in maturity foolishness in a wise man is as a fly in the ointment.

What of "ye young men,the word of God dwelleth in you richly and ye have overcome the wicked one"?
How can you over coime the wicked one if ye are yet carnal?
it is surely "liittle children " who in truth know the father and thier sins are forgiven " Yet is it not true  that thought indeed they know thier father.That he loves them and provides for them.Yet they also kmnow he comes and goes and they know not why and what profession and work he does?
So it is with  the young christian is it not?
"The children of isreal knew Gods works" but knew not his ways.
Jesus said what I se the father do that do I.

Many put the emphasis on "If we sin............" But johns emphasis was on we shall not.
Thank God indeed we have an advocate whoever intercedes for us.
But we shoudl understand  that the goal is not to be BORNagain.
That is to get out of Egypt .
The wilderness was the seperation and the sanctafacation .
They did no work of God till they crossed Jordan.
The servant of elijah did not work either till he crossed Jordan.
So then also the Lord who did no work till he crossed jordan.

Jordan speaks of decent or death.
 Arew we not to count ourselves dead? and in deed buried WITH Christ?
Not only crucyfied WITH Christ but also dead IN Christ and also buried WITH him.
Then are we not rasied togther WITH Christ also?
How can you know the power of his resurection unless you are made conformable to his death?

I dont think as a church we know much of either.

partly because we bring to often the word of God down to our own expereience rather than l;ift high the word of God in our preaching and if nescersary beyond our own yet expereince and seek to brign our expereince up to what the word fo god says.

For look at Paul .Who can say he knerw not the power of hsi resurection? Yet at the end of his life  he was till seekign to be made conformable to the Lords death.
how much then are we falling short?

I say the church is far  from knowing Him who is from the beginning. But perhaps hes closer than we think.

« Last Edit: Wed Aug 15, 2012 - 06:48:43 by gbzone »

HRoberson

  • Guest
Re: Two kinds of christians.
« Reply #31 on: Wed Aug 22, 2012 - 20:48:18 »
There are Christians and there are those who aren't.

Paul and Jesus both make it plain that growth in the Spirit is a process over time. Not all Christians are at the same point in that process.

Doesn't mean they're not listening; it means they haven't grown into the Spirit.

Sometimes life's pressures make living the life hard and almost impossible. It doesn't have anything to do with not hearing, but making choices. The history of the church is rampant with the challenges of living in the Life in the midst of life.

The Spirit does not literally compel you to do anything.


 Exactly, and ALL of us are on that scale between the 'carnal' and 'spiritual' Christian. However we ALL fall short of course. There is no such thing as a Christian who is no longer 'carnal' in some way.

That has to be qualified greatly.Or clarified.

For one thing the flesh is wholy carnal.


No, it isn't. Whatever Man is, he's the image of God.


Quote
in THAT respect  yes you are right.
But then what of "if ye walk in the spirit  then you wil not fullfill the lusts of the flesh"?
I see no  room for dual personalities  in scripture.


Then you're not reading closely enough. Paul says he has two conflicting drives; John says Christians sin; Paul tells the Corinthian church that they're messing up; Jesus tells Peter to "get behind me, Satan!"
Paul said to those who were "yet carnal"  to be spiritual!
Doesn't that pretty much argue that Christians are not necessarily mature, and yet they are Christians.

Quote
Is not the Spirit to dominate or keep under the flesh?
We are to grow into maturity; we are to be transformed by practice (according to Paul) so that we can become the likeness of God.

Quote
Another aspect  that needs to eb claryfied.
Is that a new BORNagain child of God is much like a natural born. often soiled always hungry.
But are we not to grow in grace and in the knowldge of God?
Yes.
Quote
What is acceptable almost  in a babe is not acceptable in a toddler. and what is acceptable in a toddler is not in a teenager.
By acceptable I mean that is is normal in that level of maturity but children are meant to grow to maturity.
So that  in maturity foolishness in a wise man is as a fly in the ointment.
Yes, so by definition, Christians are imperfect.


Offline gbzone

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2484
  • Manna: 53
  • Gender: Male
Re: Two kinds of christians.
« Reply #32 on: Thu Aug 23, 2012 - 06:35:16 »
There are Christians and there are those who aren't.

Paul and Jesus both make it plain that growth in the Spirit is a process over time. Not all Christians are at the same point in that process.

Doesn't mean they're not listening; it means they haven't grown into the Spirit.

Sometimes life's pressures make living the life hard and almost impossible. It doesn't have anything to do with not hearing, but making choices. The history of the church is rampant with the challenges of living in the Life in the midst of life.

The Spirit does not literally compel you to do anything.


 Exactly, and ALL of us are on that scale between the 'carnal' and 'spiritual' Christian. However we ALL fall short of course. There is no such thing as a Christian who is no longer 'carnal' in some way.

That has to be qualified greatly.Or clarified.

For one thing the flesh is wholy carnal.


No, it isn't. Whatever Man is, he's the image of God.


Quote
in THAT respect  yes you are right.
But then what of "if ye walk in the spirit  then you will not fullfill the lusts of the flesh"?
I see no  room for dual personalities  in scripture.


Then you're not reading closely enough. Paul says he has two conflicting drives; John says Christians sin; Paul tells the Corinthian church that they're messing up; Jesus tells Peter to "get behind me, Satan!"
Paul said to those who were "yet carnal"  to be spiritual!
Doesn't that pretty much argue that Christians are not necessarily mature, and yet they are Christians.

Quote
Is not the Spirit to dominate or keep under the flesh?
We are to grow into maturity; we are to be transformed by practice (according to Paul) so that we can become the likeness of God.

Quote
Another aspect  that needs to be clarified.
Is that a new BORNagain child of God is much like a natural born. often soiled always hungry.
But are we not to grow in grace and in the knowledge of God?
Yes.
Quote
What is acceptable almost  in a babe is not acceptable in a toddler. and what is acceptable in a toddler is not in a teenager.
By acceptable I mean that is is normal in that level of maturity but children are meant to grow to maturity.
So that  in maturity foolishness in a wise man is as a fly in the ointment.
Yes, so by definition, Christians are imperfect.

Man is not going to be like God.
I don't think Christ saved us to fall into the same sin as at the beginning.

We are made conformable to CHRIST.

We may if we over come sit in his throne as he over came and sits in his fathers throne.

Our life is hid with Christ in God.
We are not made conformable to 'GOD'  but to Christ whom is the express image of the invisible Christ.

It will take the WHOLE church to to express the fullness of him that fills all in all.

Bur even as we are to be in submission to Christ.
is it not written that when all things are in submission to Christ  then the SON will then submit all things to the father so that God may be all in all?
The moon has no life or light of its own.
Nor ever will.
Only the father has life in himself and he has given this also to the son and the Son has life in himself.
he then who has the SON has life and he who has not the Son has not even seen life.

The burning bush was still the bush and God was still God. Yet "oh Jacob because I change not ye are not consumed"
Burning bushes are two a penny in a wilderness of great heat and instantaneous combustion.
But one that is not consumed is not.
It was not the bush that spake but God in the midst of the bush.
The words that I speak are not my own words but the father who is in me he doth the work.

if then Jesus said that who am I to speak more ?
if then I speak not my own words would it not then be right to say in this respect it is not I who liveth but Christ who liveth in me?
Then in that case the words that I speak are not my own words but rather it would have to be said it is Christ IN  me that doeth thew work.
Then where  in do i Or can I glory?~
save in Christ alone .
For I can do nothing of my self but what I see Christ do that should I not do? Even as the reverse is also What I don't see Christ do don't do!
For it is God that worketh with in you both to will and to do his good pleasure.

Actually scripture says we are perfect going onto perfection.
Not imperfect  going onto perfection.

I take that to mean  that if a  corrupt seed is predestined to bring forth corruption unto death.
So then is an incorruptible seed predestined to bring forth righteousness unto life.
For is it not written every seed shall bring forth fruit after its own kind? Then each seed is predestined to bring forth fruit according to its kind. Depending on what "sort" it is.
Thus the seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman.
The" corruptable seed" and the "incorruptible seed" Are we not then if BORNagain so born "of an incorruptible seed"?
is it not then destined to grow? From a seed toooooooooo? some sort of fruit?>
is it not w written "By their FRUITS shall we know them?
God on that terrible day of judgement will say to some.I never KNEW you.
When my firstborn son was born .I looked at him and saw my image in him.
He had my image because he was of my seed. If  I had not been the father he would have born another image.
I do not say I expected anything else.I'm saying what I saw and thought about afterwards.
Did not Jesus say "He came to seek and to save that which was lost"?
As I said before by the scriptures man was created in the image of God .But the same scriptures say we are BORN after the image of Adam.Hence "shapen in iniquity"
Jesus then  being thee express image if the invisible God came to seek and to save that image or restore it in man  so that if a MAN is truly BORNagain of that incorruptible seed he is as the scriptures say "Begotten of God" in Christ.
if then of that incorruptible seed he is then baring the image of Christ who is the express image of the invisible God.
Then how will God deny his own flesh as it were?
He wont  for he will recognise his own image in them who are his and know them.

Thus we are LED to 1 john who speaks also of the seed that will not sin. For we are BORN of a nature that will NEVER agree with sin at the very least.
and is of one that leans to NOT sinning  even as were all once as those "sons of disobedience" are inclined to sin.

THAT is the emphasis of JOHN  not as man has replaced it with "IF we sin............."
and made the" IF" THE THING rather than "But thanks be unto God who gives us the victory"

newBORN soil themselves are are always hungry as I said.
"But folly in a wise man is as a fly in the ointment"
"young men the word of God dwellth in you richly and ye have overcome the wicked one"

If all that is taught in churches today is that milk that Paul speaks of in Hebrews is it any wonder we have more carnal Christians than fathers?

in Christ

Gerald

HRoberson

  • Guest
Re: Two kinds of christians.
« Reply #33 on: Tue Aug 28, 2012 - 14:42:46 »
Quote
Man is not going to be like God.I don't think Christ saved us to fall into the same sin as at the beginning.
Paul says we are to let the fullness of God dwell in us just as Christ did. In at least three places we are called the image/icon/likeness of God. Depending on what we mean by "like God," we certainly are. In fact, it is our nature and it is our calling.
Quote
We are made conformable to CHRIST.
Who is the likeness of God.
Quote
We may if we over come sit in his throne as he over came and sits in his fathers throne.Our life is hid with Christ in God.
Another way of saying you have the fullness of God/Christ in you.
Quote
We are not made conformable to 'GOD'  but to Christ whom is the express image of the invisible Christ.
If Christ is the image of God, and we are to be like Christ, then.......
Quote
It will take the WHOLE church to to express the fullness of him that fills all in all.
Certainly a theory I've heard. Evenso, we individually are made in the image/icon/likeness of God, and called individually to hold his fullness, and to become like him.
Quote
Bur even as we are to be in submission to Christ is it not written that when all things are in submission to Christ  then the SON will then submit all things to the father so that God may be all in all?
You will not lose your identity; you will remain you. But God will so indwell the creation that we will all be of one mind (to coin a phrase).
Quote
The moon has no life or light of its own.Nor ever will.Only the father has life in himself and he has given this also to the son and the Son has life in himself.he then who has the SON has life and he who has not the Son has not even seen life.
Not quite an exact parallel. You are said to be the light of the world. While it may be that we can say we reflect God, the import of Scripture is that you actually come to be like God so that your light is in fact your light. It is simply the same light as God's. You are called to be transformed into the perfect likeness of God so that your life is God's life. The moon in reflecting the sun's light is passive; you are not to be passive, but to emit your own light.
Quote
The burning bush was still the bush and God was still God. Yet "oh Jacob because I change not ye are not consumed"Burning bushes are two a penny in a wilderness of great heat and instantaneous combustion.But one that is not consumed is not.It was not the bush that spake but God in the midst of the bush.The words that I speak are not my own words but the father who is in me he doth the work.[size=78%]if then Jesus said that who am I to speak more ?[/size]
[size=78%] Jesus had a point in saying that; He wasn't 'channeling' God. It is simply that Jesus knew God so intimately that he could say what God wanted. In fact, we believe he was God, right?[/size]
Quote
if then I speak not my own words would it not then be right to say in this respect it is not I who liveth but Christ who liveth in me?
Sure, but they're your words, unless you're suggesting personal verbal inspiration.
Quote
Then in that case the words that I speak are not my own words but rather it would have to be said it is Christ IN  me that doeth thew work.
Only by analogy. You still have to help the old lady across the street.
Quote
Then where  in do i Or can I glory?~save in Christ alone .
In surrendering to God and becoming transformed into his likeness. You still cannot glory as though you've done anything particularly special (but, God seems to think some people do a better job than others at this), but have only allowed yourself to become who you were made to become.
Quote
For I can do nothing of my self but what I see Christ do that should I not do? Even as the reverse is also What I don't see Christ do don't do!
Depends on how strictly you want to take this. It was the same Jesus who said "you think what I do is cool? you're gonna do even more."
Quote
For it is God that worketh with in you both to will and to do his good pleasure.
If we surrender to God, God will work his will in us. That has nothing to do with whether you retain an identity or a separate psychology. God is not a puppeteer.
Quote
Actually scripture says we are perfect going onto perfection.Not imperfect  going onto perfection.
Again, depends on which passages you want to read. Paul seems to think his readers aren't perfect, and Jesus encourages his hearers to become "perfect as your heavenly father is perfect." If perfection is the goal, then it is obvious that you aren't there yet.
Quote
I take that to mean  that if a  corrupt seed is predestined to bring forth corruption unto death.So then is an incorruptible seed predestined to bring forth righteousness unto life.For is it not written every seed shall bring forth fruit after its own kind? Then each seed is predestined to bring forth fruit according to its kind. Depending on what "sort" it is.Thus the seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman.The" corruptable seed" and the "incorruptible seed" Are we not then if BORNagain so born "of an incorruptible seed"?
I think the argument in Scripture isn't an ontological argument; rather a logical or example.

Quote
is it not then destined to grow? From a seed toooooooooo? some sort of fruit?>
Yes, which means we aren't perfect in this sense. We move toward it.
Quote
is it not w written "By their FRUITS shall we know them?God on that terrible day of judgement will say to some.I never KNEW you.When my firstborn son was born .I looked at him and saw my image in him.
OK. Of course, God isn't physical. So this image must be something else.
Quote
He had my image because he was of my seed. If  I had not been the father he would have born another image.I do not say I expected anything else.
Yes, but God did. Further, we are called to become the likeness of God. If we stay even with your example, if your son were to grow in your image, would that mean that his ears grew larger, or that he would develop your character? When we speak of adults, it is the character that speaks to image rather than some happenstance physical resemblance.


Quote
[size=78%]Did not Jesus say "He came to seek and to save that which was lost"?[/size]
[size=78%] Yes. He also said that the people looked like sheep without a shepherd. They were lost because they had abandoned or had been kept from living like God would have had them. This is the argument God has with Israel throughout the OT, and Jesus' observation about the Jewish leaders in the Gospels.[/size]
Quote
As I said before by the scriptures man was created in the image of God .But the same scriptures say we are BORN after the image of Adam.Hence "shapen in iniquity"
No, if  by this you mean that people are born sinful. They are not.
Quote
Jesus then  being thee express image if the invisible God came to seek and to save that image or restore it in man  so that if a MAN is truly BORNagain of that incorruptible seed he is as the scriptures say "Begotten of God" in Christ.if then of that incorruptible seed he is then baring the image of Christ who is the express image of the invisible God.Then how will God deny his own flesh as it were?He wont  for he will recognise his own image in them who are his and know them.
We're mixing metaphors. The image is the character or life direction of the Son. All men are born with that inherent image (see Gen 9), and are called to live into its fullness. Because we get lost, we need a reminder, an example, a savior to echo Paul. Whatever you call it, mankind is acceptable to God not on the basis only of Jesus' sacrifice, but on the basis of having surrendered to God.
Quote
Thus we are LED to 1 john who speaks also of the seed that will not sin. For we are BORN of a nature that will NEVER agree with sin at the very least.and is of one that leans to NOT sinning  even as were all once as those "sons of disobedience" are inclined to sin.
OK, the conclusion here is correct. Christians do not live lives that lean toward sin, but they do sin. Sons of disobedience are simply those who continue to live in a stunted image that has been "hidden" by repetitive choices for self (see Romans 1).
Quote
THAT is the emphasis of JOHN  not as man has replaced it with "IF we sin............."and made the" IF" THE THING rather than "But thanks be unto God who gives us the victory"
Actually, John's argument is something a bit different. John assumes you're going to sin. His point is that we should not wantonly indulge our desires simply because we are flesh. This is part of his anti-Gnostic argument and must be read in that way.
Quote
newBORN soil themselves are are always hungry as I said."But folly in a wise man is as a fly in the ointment""young men the word of God dwellth in you richly and ye have overcome the wicked one"If all that is taught in churches today is that milk that Paul speaks of in Hebrews is it any wonder we have more carnal Christians than fathers?
The church has always struggled with moving people from the milk (salvation process and rule changes) to maturity (character as a matter of course outside "church"). It is a slow process and we do not hold our members accountable to living in that character.

Offline gbzone

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2484
  • Manna: 53
  • Gender: Male
Re: Two kinds of christians.
« Reply #34 on: Sat Oct 13, 2012 - 05:43:01 »
Without having a complete repeat of your post H Robertson I shall endevour to reply to each part.

Your first reply as to You have  image /ICON /likeness.

This a strange insertion. ICON.

Given that the usual practice by many and now in the Cof E is to have icons around the church building.

Is not an Icon a graven image? How then do you insert it here?
When God man man in His image it was not an icon .
and God commands we make no graven image of God.
When I said That my son bore my image that was true. he did not look like me .
Yet he bore my image  because he was of me. if he had not been of me he would not have born my image  but the image of his father whos he was.
But in that he was of me he bore my image.

I have to confess as to CREATION  I am not yet fully understanding of what it means to be created in Gods image.
Yet it does mean in part at least that as God is a Triune being so to is man .
As God is the creator so man can create.
As God is a moral being so too is man etc.

As to beign BORN again In Christ by the will of the Father. This then is true.
as Christ is the express iamge of the invisible God and that He is the Word of God and the "seed is the Word"
He that receiveth Christ bares in them the image of God.
The image of God in the creation of man was Lost or marred at the fall of man.
and as the scriptures say it we are now BORN in the image of Adam. hence "shapen in iniquity"

Jesus came to seek and to save that which was lost.
The image of God in man is restored when Christ lives and reigns in the heart.
and when man stands before the throne of God
God will recognise those who are his baring his image in them and those who do not. and will say to some "I never knew you"

This image and likeness of God  is not the same then as the temptation of the devil "ye shall be like God"

He was cast out of  heaven for his presumption.
and man was cast out of the garden for his.

Only the Father has life in Himself .Not man.
and the Father has also given this to The Son. who has life in Himself.
"He then that has the Son has life and he who has not the Son has not even seen life."
I do not have life without the Son I therefore in myself alone have not life.
For I am not God.
Nor will I ever be.
I am a man.Born in the image of God in and through Christ.

In Christ

gerald