Welcome, Guest. Login or register to use the forums.
Did you miss your activation email?
March 21, 2010, 08:00:37 PM
Home Help Search Login Register
GCM Home | Bible Search | Rules | Bookstore | Support | Newsletter


+  Christian Forums
|-+  Christian Interests
| |-+  Full-Time Ministers Forum
| | |-+  Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling  (Read 5019 times)
ex cathedra
Senior Member
****

Manna: 37
Offline Offline

Mood:

Gender: Male
Posts: 1566


Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2009, 08:08:04 PM »

Go to one of the elders of the church and they should be able to give you the number of your denomination's youth and family services, if your church does not have enough pastors to pastor you.
You would want to go to a bible believing christian councelor would you not? OR AT LEAST ONE THAT WOULD NOT TRY TO TEAR YOUR FAITH APART WHILE COUNCILING YOU.
Logged

Count me among the mightiest of sinner's,
for One must bear real and true sins to be saved. God does not save imaginary sinner's. So let your sins be strong but your faith in Jesus ,his blood bought forgiveness for your sin's ---be stronger still.
Christian Forums
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2009, 08:08:04 PM »

 
 Logged
HRoberson
Hero
*****

Manna: 170
Online Online

Mood:

Posts: 3372


Blog entries (0)

View Profile WWW
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2009, 11:27:37 PM »

(2Ti 3:16)  All Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

(2Ti 3:17)  that the man of God may be perfected, thoroughly furnished to every good work.


But then again, some don't believe that, either.
I don't think you read my entire post.
But then, not everyone does that either.
Logged

HRoberson, MC, MS, LMFT
The Enlightened One
Wizard of Smart
aC, LP, MC, BfS, Coop, SS, nKJV, EoG

I didn't say it was your fault. I said I was going to blame you.

...to love mercy, act justly, and walk humbly with God

Sometimes you just have to let it go.

http://www.robersonblog.blogspot.com
Christian Forums
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2009, 11:27:37 PM »

 Logged
HRoberson
Hero
*****

Manna: 170
Online Online

Mood:

Posts: 3372


Blog entries (0)

View Profile WWW
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2009, 11:36:28 PM »

Have you considered that there are many thousands of trained Christian counselors.  Some of them are also pastors, but all are in the ministry.

Traditionally, for thousands of years, Christians have sought counsel from those in the ministry.  Today it is possible to find trained counselors in the ministry.  There are directories at the http://NCCA.org and http://AACC.net   
I recommend caution when using referrals from either the NCCA or AACC.

For instance, the NCCA website implies they issue a license as a Christian Counselor. Unfortunately, that isn't the whole story. What they likely mean is that they will issue you a clergy license of some sort, but they cannot issue a national counseling license (like one held by your local counselor in the Yellow Pages), because there simply isn't one. Those professional licenses are handled by the individual states and none of them are going to recognize a "national counseling" license.

The AACC provides in-home training packages for folks that want to be lay counselors. These folks are not and cannot be licensed counselors either unless they in addition hold a state license.

Now this doesn't mean the folks to whom they will refer you are totally incompetent, but there really isn't any guarantees either organization can give you. So be careful and ask lots of questions.
Logged

HRoberson, MC, MS, LMFT
The Enlightened One
Wizard of Smart
aC, LP, MC, BfS, Coop, SS, nKJV, EoG

I didn't say it was your fault. I said I was going to blame you.

...to love mercy, act justly, and walk humbly with God

Sometimes you just have to let it go.

http://www.robersonblog.blogspot.com
Joe Luna
Newbie
*

Manna: 0
Offline Offline

Mood:

Posts: 7


Blog entries (0)

View Profile WWW
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2009, 11:21:02 AM »

Quote
Scenario: If someone attends church that's so big that it's almost impossible to get any counseling from your church pastor(s) due to the high number of members, and you know of another pastor from a different church who has a smaller congregation and has more time to give you counseling, is it wrong to do that?  I've been told that if you have a "home" church, then your home church pastor is your shepherd because he would be held responsible for his "flock".  I've also been told that having another pastor give biblical counsel to you when you're not a member of his flock is wrong because he can give advice that may conflict with your home church pastor.  When I heard this, I can understand where they're coming from, but at the same time, I don't see where the harm is in seeking the counsel of many.  Why would it necessarily have to be from shepherds of the same flock?  Even if the counseling conflicted between pastors of different flocks should I not be the one to discern what to follow and/or consider instead of being denied the opportunity to hear what they have to say due to this confliction rule between flocks?

I think the underlying question here is,"Are you going against loyalties?"

From Bible perspective, as a flock grows, a pastor should be teaching and multiplying himself to care for the needs of that flock just like with Moses.

Be mindful and prayerful in who you go to for counseling. Go to God and the Bible and they will reveal your answers as you need them. There isn't a right or wrong answer here. As long as you're not going to someone who doesn't see from Biblical eyes and you're intentions line up with scripture, you can feel good about your choice.
Logged

Christian Joe Luna blogs about Jesus and related topics including Music, Books, Ministry, Business and more ...
http://www.joelunablog.com
phoebe
Legendary Member
******

Manna: 301
Offline Offline

Mood:

Gender: Female
Posts: 5372

FlowerFarmer

Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2009, 11:46:44 AM »

Have you considered that there are many thousands of trained Christian counselors.  Some of them are also pastors, but all are in the ministry.

Traditionally, for thousands of years, Christians have sought counsel from those in the ministry.  Today it is possible to find trained counselors in the ministry.  There are directories at the http://NCCA.org and http://AACC.net   
I recommend caution when using referrals from either the NCCA or AACC.

For instance, the NCCA website implies they issue a license as a Christian Counselor. Unfortunately, that isn't the whole story. What they likely mean is that they will issue you a clergy license of some sort, but they cannot issue a national counseling license (like one held by your local counselor in the Yellow Pages), because there simply isn't one. Those professional licenses are handled by the individual states and none of them are going to recognize a "national counseling" license.

The AACC provides in-home training packages for folks that want to be lay counselors. These folks are not and cannot be licensed counselors either unless they in addition hold a state license.

Now this doesn't mean the folks to whom they will refer you are totally incompetent, but there really isn't any guarantees either organization can give you. So be careful and ask lots of questions.


You are quite mistaken about your understanding of the NCCA.  They do not issue clergy licenses.  You must have a PhD in pastoral counseling to be licensed as a counselor, as well as insurance.  Continuing education is also required.

Some states do not recognize it because it is Christ-centered counseling, and they do not believe that religion/spirituality and counseling should be mixed.  A state-licensed counselor is limited in Christian counseling, whether they acknowledge it or not.  They can lose that license if the counseling is Christ-centered. 

You should know these things before you publicly criticize them.

You should always ask lots of questions regarding ANY counselor, no matter his degree or reference.

Logged

"IMO"

I WATCH FOX NEWS.

I have one Head, and one Head only-Jesus Christ
HRoberson
Hero
*****

Manna: 170
Online Online

Mood:

Posts: 3372


Blog entries (0)

View Profile WWW
« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2009, 12:11:04 PM »

Have you considered that there are many thousands of trained Christian counselors.  Some of them are also pastors, but all are in the ministry.

Traditionally, for thousands of years, Christians have sought counsel from those in the ministry.  Today it is possible to find trained counselors in the ministry.  There are directories at the http://NCCA.org and http://AACC.net   
I recommend caution when using referrals from either the NCCA or AACC.

For instance, the NCCA website implies they issue a license as a Christian Counselor. Unfortunately, that isn't the whole story. What they likely mean is that they will issue you a clergy license of some sort, but they cannot issue a national counseling license (like one held by your local counselor in the Yellow Pages), because there simply isn't one. Those professional licenses are handled by the individual states and none of them are going to recognize a "national counseling" license.

The AACC provides in-home training packages for folks that want to be lay counselors. These folks are not and cannot be licensed counselors either unless they in addition hold a state license.

Now this doesn't mean the folks to whom they will refer you are totally incompetent, but there really isn't any guarantees either organization can give you. So be careful and ask lots of questions.


You are quite mistaken about your understanding of the NCCA.  They do not issue clergy licenses.  You must have a PhD in pastoral counseling to be licensed as a counselor, as well as insurance.  Continuing education is also required.

Some states do not recognize it because it is Christ-centered counseling, and they do not believe that religion/spirituality and counseling should be mixed.  A state-licensed counselor is limited in Christian counseling, whether they acknowledge it or not.  They can lose that license if the counseling is Christ-centered. 

You should know these things before you publicly criticize them.

You should always ask lots of questions regarding ANY counselor, no matter his degree or reference.


I probably understand therapist licensing better than you do. I am one.
My point was that they cannot issue a national counseling license. Licensing for therapists are issued by states, not a (presumably) national private organization. Every state licenses counselors or MFTs, and some license other forms of therapists (e.g., pastoral therapists).
No therapist will lose their license for using Christian approaches or beliefs in their counseling as long as they meet the other legal requirements of holding a license.
Logged

HRoberson, MC, MS, LMFT
The Enlightened One
Wizard of Smart
aC, LP, MC, BfS, Coop, SS, nKJV, EoG

I didn't say it was your fault. I said I was going to blame you.

...to love mercy, act justly, and walk humbly with God

Sometimes you just have to let it go.

http://www.robersonblog.blogspot.com
Christian Forums
« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2009, 12:11:04 PM »

 Logged
phoebe
Legendary Member
******

Manna: 301
Offline Offline

Mood:

Gender: Female
Posts: 5372

FlowerFarmer

Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2009, 01:45:13 PM »

I probably understand therapist licensing better than you do. I am one.
My point was that they cannot issue a national counseling license. Licensing for therapists are issued by states, not a (presumably) national private organization. Every state licenses counselors or MFTs, and some license other forms of therapists (e.g., pastoral therapists).
No therapist will lose their license for using Christian approaches or beliefs in their counseling as long as they meet the other legal requirements of holding a license.

Gee, maybe not.  My husband is one.  And he's too busy with patients to spend on internet forums.

Maybe the state you are in allows for Christ-centered counseling.  The states we have been in do not.  But you didn't say "Christ-centered counseling", did you?  Only that you can use "Christian approaches or beliefs in their counseling as long as they meet the other legal requirements of holding a license."  Thank you for that clarification.  You're not a licensed Christian counselor.

Sorry to reply tartly, but you came off with license snobery and false information re:NCCA.  Couldn't let it pass w/o challenging you on it.


Logged

"IMO"

I WATCH FOX NEWS.

I have one Head, and one Head only-Jesus Christ
HRoberson
Hero
*****

Manna: 170
Online Online

Mood:

Posts: 3372


Blog entries (0)

View Profile WWW
« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2009, 12:19:04 AM »

The critical point is that your husband is one. You aren't.

I'm glad your husband has more clients than he can shake a stick at. All of the therapists I supervise do.

If an applicant shows up for a job and offers a "license" from the NCCA, they won't get the job. It's quite simple, actually - there are no national licenses recognized by the states. Even the federal government doesn't issue a license, but rather requires their therapists to be licensed by a state prior to being hired by the VA or the DoD.

An NCCA piece of paper won't work. Even if it says "license" on it.

Check their website.
Logged

HRoberson, MC, MS, LMFT
The Enlightened One
Wizard of Smart
aC, LP, MC, BfS, Coop, SS, nKJV, EoG

I didn't say it was your fault. I said I was going to blame you.

...to love mercy, act justly, and walk humbly with God

Sometimes you just have to let it go.

http://www.robersonblog.blogspot.com
phoebe
Legendary Member
******

Manna: 301
Offline Offline

Mood:

Gender: Female
Posts: 5372

FlowerFarmer

Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2009, 08:37:29 AM »

"Critical point"?  You think I don't know what my husband does, why, or how?  Please.

One can possess another license, in addition to the NCCA license, Mr. Roberson.  It is true the state does not recognize it.  That does not make in invalid or of lesser quality.  Some insurance companies recognize it.  Some courts recognize it.  My husband prefers the freedom of counseling Christ's way than trying to counsel with one arm tied behind his back as with a state license. 

I did not say he had "more clients than he can shake a stick at".  That's a butt-head statement.  I used to have great respect for you.  No more.

My husband isn't in it for the money.  He's actually in it to help people.

Logged

"IMO"

I WATCH FOX NEWS.

I have one Head, and one Head only-Jesus Christ
Christian Forums
« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2009, 08:37:29 AM »

 
 Logged
HRoberson
Hero
*****

Manna: 170
Online Online

Mood:

Posts: 3372


Blog entries (0)

View Profile WWW
« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2009, 06:42:14 PM »

You still become very defensive when someone disagrees with you...what's up with that?

I'm not sure how your husband's motivation came up, but I'm glad he likes to help people - as though others only care about the money.

I do question though, whether you know as much about the counseling profession as you seem to think you do. I would recommend that you read closely the NCCA website. You will find...

--they make a distinction between state licensure and the NCCA "license."

--they view their "license" as a "sacred" office, much like any preaching license.

--the schools that provide their training can receive education assistance through "large companies," churches, and state rehabilitation departments. Conspicuously absent from this list is the US Department of Education. This is significant in that the schools probably aren't credentialed by widely recognized accrediting organizations such as those that accredit your state university.

--their code of ethics makes it clear that their members should only refer to themselves as pastoral, clergy, or Biblical counselors. This is because they must make the distinction between therapists that their states license and the NCCA "license." This warning however is not sufficient, since some states actually license "pastoral counselors" and the NCCA license won't fly (as a counseling license) in those states. One such state is Tennessee, which does recognize the AAPC as a legitimate organization to "vouch" for therapists but not the NCCA. But even in Tennessee, a real, state license is required before you can call yourself a "pastoral counselor."

It is clear that the NCCA license is merely a version of a minister's license, and is not a counseling license - if it is even that..

I don't doubt that your husband knows something about counseling and Scripture and that he helps lots of folks.

I have simply observed that an NCCA "license" isn't and should not be confused with a state-issued professional counseling license. I remain convinced, especially after re-reviewing the NCCA site, that anyone seeking counseling - Christian, professional, or any other - should be very careful about who they're seeing, and that having a "license" on the wall doesn't really mean anything.

The "other" Christian counseling organization (AACC) is much more circumspect about what they offer their students, and they make no assertions about "licensing" Christian counselors. They do that because their officers know the difference in connotation between "license" and "certification" in the counseling world. They do offer trainings for lay counselors but they insist that that is what their students remain unless they have a state-issued license.

The professional organization for those who want to be really licensed pastoral counselors is the American Association of Pastoral Counselors (AAPC). If a potential client wants a pastoral counselor, they should look for one who is a member of, or who generally meets the credentialing requirements of the AAPC.

I'm sure the NCCA are nice folks who love God and want to help their clients, but that does not change the realities of the NCCA "license."

I haven't found having a state license to be the equivalent of counseling with one hand tied behind my back and I don't really expect to ever have that occur. This despite my using the Bible in session with appropriate clients, and assigning personal retreats, prayer, and spiritual disciplines as homework.

Whether I am a licensed Christian counselor or not isn't really up to you to decide. If you have read my posts along these lines then you know that my definition of a licensed Christian counselor is someone who is a (state-) licensed therapist, who in addition to their counseling graduate degree also has graduate work in Bible/theology/ministry. I don't require someone to have a piece of paper that reads "Licensed Christian Counselor" because as far as I know, the NCCA is the only people that issue those. And we know what concerns I have about them even though they're nice Christians, I'm sure.

So I'm thinking your definition of Christian Counselor is a bit narrow, and your knowledge concerning the counseling profession is not as complete as you think it is.

Love ya,


Logged

HRoberson, MC, MS, LMFT
The Enlightened One
Wizard of Smart
aC, LP, MC, BfS, Coop, SS, nKJV, EoG

I didn't say it was your fault. I said I was going to blame you.

...to love mercy, act justly, and walk humbly with God

Sometimes you just have to let it go.

http://www.robersonblog.blogspot.com
Christian Forums
« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2009, 06:42:14 PM »

 Logged
HRoberson
Hero
*****

Manna: 170
Online Online

Mood:

Posts: 3372


Blog entries (0)

View Profile WWW
« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2009, 11:23:21 PM »

Have you considered that there are many thousands of trained Christian counselors.  Some of them are also pastors, but all are in the ministry.
This is why I think the NCCA "license" is actually a ministry license, just like some denominations provide their preachers. The expectation is that the state in which you are in will not interfere with a "pastor" counseling their "flock."

Quote
Traditionally, for thousands of years, Christians have sought counsel from those in the ministry.  Today it is possible to find trained counselors in the ministry.  There are directories at the http://NCCA.org and http://AACC.net  
I recommend caution when using referrals from either the NCCA or AACC.

For instance, the NCCA website implies they issue a license as a Christian Counselor. Unfortunately, that isn't the whole story. What they likely mean is that they will issue you a clergy license of some sort, but they cannot issue a national counseling license (like one held by your local counselor in the Yellow Pages), because there simply isn't one. Those professional licenses are handled by the individual states and none of them are going to recognize a "national counseling" license.

The AACC provides in-home training packages for folks that want to be lay counselors. These folks are not and cannot be licensed counselors either unless they in addition hold a state license.

Now this doesn't mean the folks to whom they will refer you are totally incompetent, but there really isn't any guarantees either organization can give you. So be careful and ask lots of questions.


Quote
You are quite mistaken about your understanding of the NCCA.  They do not issue clergy licenses.
They don't call their licenses that, but that's effectively what they issue. I suspect that to be the case because they don't say you will be qualified to provide professional counseling, but that you might be able to open a counseling ministry. They also say, when answering the question "can I accept remuneration?" that you probably could because states exempt clergy from having to be state licensed. Apparently they know what they're offering and that it isn't a professional counseling license.

Quote
You must have a PhD in pastoral counseling to be licensed as a counselor,
Their website says you can't be licensed without a BA degree. They do not say that you have to have a Ph.D. to be licensed.  If you elect to enroll, they will offer you a package that combines "licensure, bachelors, and masters" degrees, or "licensure and masters." There is no stated expectation that one must have a doctorate degree to get their "license."

Quote
Some states do not recognize it because it is Christ-centered counseling, and they do not believe that religion/spirituality and counseling should be mixed.
Actually, states don't recognize it because they don't issue it, it's based on education from (likely) non-accredited schools, and the issuing entity makes it clear that they aren't making professional counselors but "ministers" who counsel. Do you have a list of states that actually recognize the "license" for anything other than church-based counseling?

Quote
A state-licensed counselor is limited in Christian counseling, whether they acknowledge it or not.  They can lose that license if the counseling is Christ-centered.
Actually, spirituality (including Christian approaches and Biblical counseling among others) is a valid part of professional counseling and you're not going to lose your license for including it. You may well lose your license if you don't pay attention to your client, don't use effective approaches, or simply recite Scripture in session - or try to convert your Buddhist client.  

Quote
You should know these things before you publicly criticize them.
Yes you should.

Quote
You should always ask lots of questions regarding ANY counselor, no matter his degree or reference.
Especially if the "license" is issued by a non-governmental agency, based on education from non-accredited institutions.
Logged

HRoberson, MC, MS, LMFT
The Enlightened One
Wizard of Smart
aC, LP, MC, BfS, Coop, SS, nKJV, EoG

I didn't say it was your fault. I said I was going to blame you.

...to love mercy, act justly, and walk humbly with God

Sometimes you just have to let it go.

http://www.robersonblog.blogspot.com
HRoberson
Hero
*****

Manna: 170
Online Online

Mood:

Posts: 3372


Blog entries (0)

View Profile WWW
« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2009, 12:20:08 AM »

Here are the schools associated with the NCCA program.

# Andersonville Theological Seminary
# Calvary Theological Seminary (AA and BA only)
# Central Christian University
# Chesapeake Bible College & Seminary
# Colorado Theological Seminary
# Cornerstone University
# Family Bible Institute, College & Seminary
# Jacksonville Theological Seminary
# Pillsbury College & Seminary

The number of the above schools regionally accredited in the US: 1 (and it only offers Bachelors degrees in two areas that apply to this discussion: social work, and psychology. They also offer Bachelors degrees in Youth Ministry. Since they don't offer Masters degrees, you're going to have to attend one of the other quality schools to get your license.)

Here's a Wiki article on one of the accrediting bodies associated with at least two of the schools listed above. It's a Wiki article, so take it with that understanding.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accrediting_Commission_International

Interesting to say the least.

Here's a link to one of the "schools" from which you can get your education:
http://www.rmcm.org/ (this is the location from which I got the list of schools above, and I suppose then, that this would be another source of education.)
It is interesting that the director of the school has his credentials from the NCCA. It is further interesting that they don't list their faculty but simply describe their positions as Adjunct Professor or Certified Instructor. Want to know who your instructors are going to be before you enroll? You're not going to find them on this site.

Even more interesting, no?

Isn't the internet wonderful?
« Last Edit: January 03, 2010, 12:30:10 AM by HRoberson » Logged

HRoberson, MC, MS, LMFT
The Enlightened One
Wizard of Smart
aC, LP, MC, BfS, Coop, SS, nKJV, EoG

I didn't say it was your fault. I said I was going to blame you.

...to love mercy, act justly, and walk humbly with God

Sometimes you just have to let it go.

http://www.robersonblog.blogspot.com
HRoberson
Hero
*****

Manna: 170
Online Online

Mood:

Posts: 3372


Blog entries (0)

View Profile WWW
« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2009, 01:11:25 AM »

For those who are interested in professional organizations for licensed Christian counselors, here are three:

American Association of Christian Counselors
Christian Association for Psychological Studies
American Association of Pastoral Counselors

None of these organizations offer "licenses" that aren't recognized by states.
None of these organizations offer licenses based on education at a limited number of schools - all of whom are not regionally accredited to offer masters degrees.
None of these organizations urge their licensed members to refer to themselves as "clergy" in order to accept remuneration.
Logged

HRoberson, MC, MS, LMFT
The Enlightened One
Wizard of Smart
aC, LP, MC, BfS, Coop, SS, nKJV, EoG

I didn't say it was your fault. I said I was going to blame you.

...to love mercy, act justly, and walk humbly with God

Sometimes you just have to let it go.

http://www.robersonblog.blogspot.com
Christian Forums
« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2009, 01:11:25 AM »

 Logged
son of God
Hero
*****

Manna: 77
Offline Offline

Mood:

Gender: Male
Posts: 2142


Yup. That's me.

Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2009, 01:48:03 AM »

Informative and well done, HR.
Logged
phoebe
Legendary Member
******

Manna: 301
Offline Offline

Mood:

Gender: Female
Posts: 5372

FlowerFarmer

Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2009, 09:44:08 AM »

Me thinks you have gotten too big for your britches, Mr. Roberson.  Trying to psychoanalyze me makes you feel bigger, better, does it?

For the record, my husband IS "clergy", and doesn't claim the title for income.  He is both a part-time paid preaching minister and a full-time paid hospital chaplain and hospice chaplain.  He obtained the license to help people, not to earn a fat living.  (Care to reveal your annual salary?)

I'll not continue this conversation with you.  It contains lies, is harmful and slanderous.  Anyone who depends on Wiki for proof...  And spends time trying to discredit others who dedicate their lives to helping others...  Do you actually even personally know anyone with an NCCA license?

It's license snobbery.  Think what you wish if it pumps you up. 

I'm done.
Logged

"IMO"

I WATCH FOX NEWS.

I have one Head, and one Head only-Jesus Christ
Question For the Pastors on Biblical Counseling - Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  



Login with username, password and session length

Grace-Centered Christian Forums
Bible concordance | abortion ticker | is God real? | galaga | play tetris | copter game | mini golf games | arcade | donkey kong | Christian marriage help | articles | privacy
Powered by SMF | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC