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Author Topic: 2 Parts to the Gospel Message  (Read 4011 times)

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Offline Bonnie

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Re: 2 Parts to the Gospel Message
« Reply #30 on: November 23, 2008, 04:13:27 PM »
for he who has died is freed from sin.

for the death He died He died to sin once for all; but the life He lives, He lives to God.
Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ.

For sin shall not be a master over you, for you are not under law, but under grace.

and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? for the outcome of those things is death.
But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Rom.6
This is the proof that a Christian can live a life, without committing any more known sin, thru the power of God.
No it does not.....It says we are no longer slaves to sin.
Christ can live in us and our spiritual man can live a sin free life....We are born to a life with Christ.
But while we remain in our bodies, the carnal man, desires to pleasure the flesh. And our thoughts can cause us to sin.  And some of our thoughts are in fact sin.

The difference is Christ within us, Identifies the sin, as soon as it is commited, and we repent of that sin.
Sin is no longer our master, and we are to seek the grace of God.....But it does not say that we are going to be without sin....Our carnal lust, will cause us to sin....Christ within us, will raise the flag when we do.

If we could live a sin free life...Christ would never have had to die for us.
God , could have simply sent his Holy Spirit, to fill us and then we live a rightious life and salvation is ours......But that is not the way it is.

We are (right now) spiritual man, redeemed by the Blood.....But we live in a carnal body....And our carnal body, desires to pleasure the flesh....

Concider this....I am married and love my wife...And know that the physical act of Adultry would never take place...Christ gives me that strength.
However, there are times, when i take the kids to the beach, or Amusement park, or on TV.....There appears a woman that may bring up a lustful thought....More a reflex than anything else.   I ask for forgiveness when these things happen.
And God does forgive me, but as far as living a "Rightious" life, We can not...The bible tells us we can not.....Only Christ within us can.....And when we get to heaven, we will be in our spiritual body and then we will not be tempted to desire to pleasure the flesh


Good post, Corbley.
Psalms 118:24  "This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it."

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Re: 2 Parts to the Gospel Message
« Reply #30 on: November 23, 2008, 04:13:27 PM »

Offline llewksgood

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Re: 2 Parts to the Gospel Message
« Reply #31 on: November 23, 2008, 10:17:08 PM »
I am not inclined to agree with the opening statement by dividing the work of Jesus Christ into 2 parts, however the argument that Romans 6 does not suggest that we can live free from sin is incorrect. Also to say that the Bible says we will never stop sinning without the proving text should not be acceptable. If you make a claim using the Bible as your defense, please provide your source.

Paul says plainly, in Romans 6, "How shall we, who are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"

How can you then say that he does not suggest that we can be free of sin?

Can you continue to sin and say you have regarded his initial question in this Passage? "Shall we continue to sin that grace may abound?" Corbley (?) suggests, yes, and is directly opposed to Paul who says, "God forbid."

Why do we insist that we must "try" to be sinless? It is not about us, its about Christ. Yes, I think there is sense in saying that we should leave this up to Christ, and get on with the more important aspect of serving one another. However I do believe that it is correct to defend the Bible doctrine that we can be sinless in this life. However I would hesitate to say of myself that I am sinless, let others say it of me.

If I am sinning, should I lie, and say I am not? Foolishness, there is nothing hid from God. It is better for God to bare record of me as to where I stand with him. I will therefore not try to convince you of anything concerning myself, but I want you to know that there is power in Jesus Christ.

That is what the doctrine of sinlessness in the Bible is -- Christ frees you from sin.

I, too, struggled with the concept of sinlessness for many years, and also in deed. It was not until God showed me by this passage in Romans that I am dead to sin -- I don't have to sin anymore -- I am not captured by sin, and bound in its power -- I can walk away without sinning, that I gained the victory over those things which bound me. Today I press on knowing that Jesus has freed me from sin and death. This is the hope of the resurrection.

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Re: 2 Parts to the Gospel Message
« Reply #31 on: November 23, 2008, 10:17:08 PM »

Offline Corbley

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Re: 2 Parts to the Gospel Message
« Reply #32 on: November 23, 2008, 10:32:07 PM »
I am not inclined to agree with the opening statement by dividing the work of Jesus Christ into 2 parts, however the argument that Romans 6 does not suggest that we can live free from sin is incorrect. Also to say that the Bible says we will never stop sinning without the proving text should not be acceptable. If you make a claim using the Bible as your defense, please provide your source.

Paul says plainly, in Romans 6, "How shall we, who are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"

How can you then say that he does not suggest that we can be free of sin?

Can you continue to sin and say you have regarded his initial question in this Passage? "Shall we continue to sin that grace may abound?" Corbley (?) suggests, yes, and is directly opposed to Paul who says, "God forbid."

Why do we insist that we must "try" to be sinless? It is not about us, its about Christ. Yes, I think there is sense in saying that we should leave this up to Christ, and get on with the more important aspect of serving one another. However I do believe that it is correct to defend the Bible doctrine that we can be sinless in this life. However I would hesitate to say of myself that I am sinless, let others say it of me.

If I am sinning, should I lie, and say I am not? Foolishness, there is nothing hid from God. It is better for God to bare record of me as to where I stand with him. I will therefore not try to convince you of anything concerning myself, but I want you to know that there is power in Jesus Christ.

That is what the doctrine of sinlessness in the Bible is -- Christ frees you from sin.

I, too, struggled with the concept of sinlessness for many years, and also in deed. It was not until God showed me by this passage in Romans that I am dead to sin -- I don't have to sin anymore -- I am not captured by sin, and bound in its power -- I can walk away without sinning, that I gained the victory over those things which bound me. Today I press on knowing that Jesus has freed me from sin and death. This is the hope of the resurrection.
Not quite sure what your post concludes?
But if you believe, after we are saved and accept Christ...That we will not sin again or if we do, we lose our salvation.....That is not what the bible says

I will point to an earlier post that quotes from scripture:
For sin shall not be a master over you, for you are not under law, but under grace

sin is no longer our Master...Jesus is our master...and if we sin against him, we must repent.  It does not mean we will never sin again,     the flesh is weak and Christ knows this....

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Re: 2 Parts to the Gospel Message
« Reply #32 on: November 23, 2008, 10:32:07 PM »

Offline BornToReign

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Re: 2 Parts to the Gospel Message
« Reply #33 on: November 24, 2008, 09:15:47 AM »

Your Spirit, the real you is what is saved, not your flesh. Now I say this brethren that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit imperishable. 1Cor.15:50


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To you it was shown, that you might know that Yahweh is ha-'Elohiym; there is no other besides Him.
Out of heaven He let me hear His voice, that He might correct me. And on earth He let me see His great fire, and I heard His Word out of the midst of the fire.


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Re: 2 Parts to the Gospel Message
« Reply #33 on: November 24, 2008, 09:15:47 AM »

Offline llewksgood

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Re: 2 Parts to the Gospel Message
« Reply #34 on: November 24, 2008, 10:54:31 AM »
Corbley,

My conclusion is that it is possible, and indeed should be our goal to live a sinless life in this world. You stated this is not possible, directly contradicting the word of God.

Grace is always available, yes. "If we confess our sin he is faithful and just... (1 John 1:9)"

No, we do not lose our salvation if we sin again, and we do need to be washed, from time to time, of the contamination of this world. BUT... "If we sin willfully after we have received knowledge of the truth there remaineth no sacrifice for us [Hebrews 10:26]."

Let me give you an example of the danger of saying, "We sin, we repent, we are forgiven."

Reg came to me and said, "If a woman proposed to me for sexual pleasures, I would do it, and then repent, and know that I'm okay." That is sinning willfully. I told him very plainly that he not only would not be okay, he was not okay, and in danger of hellfire.

Now... we may not SAY the same as Reg, but do we DO the same as Reg? If you have a problem with scantily clad ladies on the beach, should you not ask God to reveal the victory that is in you through Jesus Christ? "For, by grace you have been saved... unto good works... [Eph 2:8 & 10]" Why remain in the quandry of Romans 7 when Paul has already given you the solution, "Who shall deliver me from this body of death? I thank God, through Jesus Christ... [Romans 7:24-25].

Borntoreign,

Your conclusion drawn from 1 Corinthians 15 is incorrect. This passage speaks not of salvation, but of resurrection.

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Re: 2 Parts to the Gospel Message
« Reply #34 on: November 24, 2008, 10:54:31 AM »



Offline BornToReign

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Re: 2 Parts to the Gospel Message
« Reply #35 on: November 24, 2008, 11:58:58 AM »

 BUT... "If we sin willfully after we have received knowledge of the truth there remaineth no sacrifice for us [Hebrews 10:26]."

All scripture was written for us but not all scripture was written to us.
Hebrews who wanted to fall back to the old sacrificial system of killing animals after hearing the truth of Christ who is the sacrifice for all sin except one, the willful sin of not accepting His "finished" work.


My point was and is our flesh is corrupted and can never be saved and will always fall short of the mark. It is indeed our spirit that is eternally forgiven and is and will be saved, both now and or in the resurrection. my conclusion from the word is correct.

For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

If Christ is in you, The the body is dead because of sin, yet the Spirit is alive because of righteousness.

And not only this, but we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

To you it was shown, that you might know that Yahweh is ha-'Elohiym; there is no other besides Him.
Out of heaven He let me hear His voice, that He might correct me. And on earth He let me see His great fire, and I heard His Word out of the midst of the fire.


Wisdom is the summit, acquire wisdom, and with all your acquisitions acquire understanding.

Offline llewksgood

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Re: 2 Parts to the Gospel Message
« Reply #36 on: November 24, 2008, 04:42:28 PM »
Borntoreign,

I think you may be confusing two aspect of Bible truth here. Where does the Bible refer to "our flesh" (meaning the body)? Does it not rather speak of "the flesh" or, "living according to the rudiments of this world [smell, see, taste, feel, hear]"?

I cannot go along with you in your conclusion.

Surely, in our body we may be inclined to fulfill the lusts of the flesh, but you cannot conclude that our body, though made of flesh is what is intended as the flesh in Scripture.

When we are crucified with Christ it is not our body that is crucified [else we would not be here], but the flesh. The flesh is opposed to God because it is opposed to faith. The flesh says, seeing is believing, and therefore cannot accept the existence of God whom it has never seen.

That is why we are told to yield our members (our bodies) as servants to God, and not as the servants of sin. Your body is not your problem, your heart is. "For as a man thinks in his heart, so he is." What you think becomes what you do.

I shall think more on what you said, while I check out your Scripture quotes, which struggle to clarify for me your point.

Offline 3AM

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Re: 2 Parts to the Gospel Message
« Reply #37 on: November 27, 2008, 01:49:01 PM »
 What is needful here is a definition of the words:
 #1.) Sin.
 #2.) Salvation.
 #3.) Grace.
 #4.) Righteousness.
 #5.) Law of God.
#6.) Christ's Death, Burial, and Resurrection
#7.) Faith.
 #8.) Works.

And there are other words, that unless we come to an understanding what each of these terms means......and, realize that each, has a place in the Gospel message.....we could easily fail of receiving eternal Life.
1 Peter  4:17   For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God ? 

God's 'Investigative' Judgment Day

Offline kingdom-heir

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Re: 2 Parts to the Gospel Message
« Reply #38 on: November 27, 2008, 02:00:36 PM »
John 3:3 Except a man be born again he can not see the Kingdom of God.
Jesus didn't add all that other stuff that you throw in. Maybe you don't understand what it means to be born again??
 
Jesus said, "Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, but he that DOETH THE WILL of My Father who is in Heaven"

What do you have to say about these scriptures??

Offline 3AM

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Re: 2 Parts to the Gospel Message
« Reply #39 on: November 27, 2008, 02:40:55 PM »
John 3:3 Except a man be born again he can not see the Kingdom of God.
Jesus didn't add all that other stuff that you throw in. Maybe you don't understand what it means to be born again??

I think I understand what the Bible says......

 1 Peter  1:23  Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

James  1:21   Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. 

  1:22   But be ye doers of the word,
and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.   



Quote
Jesus said, "Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, but he that DOETH THE WILL of My Father who is in Heaven"
What is the will of God ?

 Eccl.  12:13   Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man. 
  12:14   For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether [it be] good, or whether [it be] evil.  

From Genesis to Revelation......that is the theme of the whole Bible.

What do you think Jesus taught during HIS ministry....for 3 1/2 years ?

 John   15:10   If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1 Peter  4:17   For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God ? 

God's 'Investigative' Judgment Day

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Re: 2 Parts to the Gospel Message
« Reply #39 on: November 27, 2008, 02:40:55 PM »

Offline yogi bear

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Re: 2 Parts to the Gospel Message
« Reply #40 on: November 28, 2008, 11:22:05 AM »
Well-----??-----???   Yes that is what is written but that is not what it means.

It never was meant to be if one beleives in Jesus they are to keep his words. That is a works base salvation and Pauls say we are to do no works. All we have to do is ------- Well ------- ???   Nothing.

Offline zoonance

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Re: 2 Parts to the Gospel Message
« Reply #41 on: November 28, 2008, 11:25:04 AM »
Obedience is a straight path to hell.

Offline 3AM

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Re: 2 Parts to the Gospel Message
« Reply #42 on: November 28, 2008, 12:59:30 PM »
Well-----??-----???   Yes that is what is written but that is not what it means.

It never was meant to be if one beleives in Jesus they are to keep his words.
Peter thought that Jesus' words..... John  6:68   Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 
  6:69   And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. 


Quote
That is a works base salvation and Pauls say we are to do no works.
You really ought to read the Bible.......

 #1.)
Phill.  2:12   Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence,   work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.


#2.) Galations  6:4   But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.

#3.)
1 Corinthians  3:13   Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

1 Peter  4:17   For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God ? 

God's 'Investigative' Judgment Day

Offline 3AM

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Re: 2 Parts to the Gospel Message
« Reply #43 on: November 28, 2008, 01:03:37 PM »
Obedience is a straight path to hell.

Romans   1:5   By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: 
  1:6   Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
 



 Romans 6:16   Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 


1 Peter  4:17   For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God ? 

God's 'Investigative' Judgment Day

Offline Elaine

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Re: 2 Parts to the Gospel Message
« Reply #44 on: November 30, 2008, 07:00:30 PM »

For sin shall not be a master over you, for you are not under law, but under grace.

and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

i] Rom.6
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

OMG,  I am a 'slave of righteousness' ---ask any of my friends they can't stand me - I never do anything wrong, they think or condone their actions even for a minute.

So you get Andrew in Michigan, eh? Big smile! I just saw him last month.

Elaine :)
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