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Offline JohnDB70X7

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Anti-semitism
« on: March 04, 2012, 06:52:09 PM »
Some have taken quite an exception that their beliefs or opinions which are not favorable to Jewish born people might be defined as antisemitism... for a variety of reasons.

Okay.

Let's determine what antisemitism is, and go from there.
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Anti-semitism
« on: March 04, 2012, 06:52:09 PM »

graciemay

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Re: Anti-semitism
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2012, 07:45:35 PM »
Hostility or prejudice against Jews.

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Re: Anti-semitism
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2012, 07:45:35 PM »

Offline JohnDB70X7

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Re: Anti-semitism
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2012, 08:56:19 PM »
Okay.

Would you agree that teaching that God is through (finished) with the Jews (when he's not the Bible says so in Romans 11:28 Jeremiah 31:35-37 and many other places)... is hurtful... harmful...even hateful?
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Re: Anti-semitism
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2012, 08:56:19 PM »

EdwardGoodie

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Re: Anti-semitism
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2012, 01:22:40 PM »
John,

I believe you begin with a presupposition...I have to ask you these four questions in the hopes that you will answer them honestly:

What makes a person a Jew? 
Was Abraham's great, great grandfather a Jew? 
Was Abraham's great, great grandmother a Jew?
How should we view those who support the abuse of Palestinian Christians?

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Re: Anti-semitism
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2012, 01:22:40 PM »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline n2thelight

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Re: Anti-semitism
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2012, 09:32:05 PM »
Most Jew's are not semetic............
"When we come to ask ourselves, and say, "Where did I learn this?" "How did I get this?" "Who taught me this?" it is astonishing to find how much we have imbibed from man, and from tradition; and not directly and for ourselves, from the Word of God. "


How to Enjoy the Bible
E. W. Bullinger
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Re: Anti-semitism
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2012, 09:32:05 PM »



thethinker

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Re: Anti-semitism
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2012, 02:27:55 AM »
On another thread a Preterist CORRECTLY noted that it is the dispensationalists who are the anti-semites:

Quote
Actually, it is dispensationalism who are the anti-Semites.  Their theology demands for a full return to the Middle East (their alleged land) for the purposes that their precious church can be raptured out of the way.  But raptured out of the way for what reason???  The reason is to avoid the slaughter and devastation that is allegedly going to come to the very Jews they say they love.  Two-thirds of these Jews (according to their own theology) are going to be slaughtered.

Yet these same dispensationalists promote (time, finances) the return to the alleged land for this outcome.  They are actively trying to hasten the time for their alleged rapture.

The statement by the Preterist above is right on! I would like to add two brief points.

Israel was to be the FIRSTFRUITS to receive salvation as well as ALL promises. Therefore, they were to be the FIRST to be resurrected from the dead. Yet the dispensationalists say that non Jews will be resurrected first.

Second, both the resurrection and the rapture was promised to Israel (Hosea 13:14 w/ 1 Corinthians 15:50). Yet the dispensationalists say that the church will be raptured and not Israel. They totally take away the rapture from Israel.

It is clear who the real anti-semites are. The dispenasationalist's false "anti-semite" accusation is old and worn out.

Paul said that the body of Christ is the "commonwealth of Israel."

Quote
11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
 
14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God IN ONE BODY through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.

Those Gentiles were "aliens from the COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL" but were reconciled with the Jews in "ONE BODY" (Christ's body).

Therefore, Christ's body IS the commonwealth of Israel.

thinker

« Last Edit: March 06, 2012, 09:24:07 AM by thethinker »

EdwardGoodie

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Re: Anti-semitism
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2012, 08:56:11 AM »
John,

I believe you begin with a presupposition...I have to ask you these four questions in the hopes that you will answer them honestly:

What makes a person a Jew? 
Was Abraham's great, great grandfather a Jew? 
Was Abraham's great, great grandmother a Jew?
How should we view those who support the abuse of Palestinian Christians?

Still waiting for these answers...

Offline JohnDB70X7

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Re: Anti-semitism
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2012, 09:03:43 PM »
John,

I believe you begin with a presupposition...I have to ask you these four questions in the hopes that you will answer them honestly:

What makes a person a Jew? 
Was Abraham's great, great grandfather a Jew? 
Was Abraham's great, great grandmother a Jew?
How should we view those who support the abuse of Palestinian Christians?

Initially I responded with "If you give me a legitimate question, I'll answer it."

But I see it is better that I say by the questions you ask I see you would not understand the answer AND you have already made up your mind about a great many things.

So why waste one another's time?
Give to those who hold to untruth
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Offline JohnDB70X7

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Re: Anti-semitism
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2012, 09:48:33 PM »
On another thread a Preterist CORRECTLY noted that it is the dispensationalists who are the anti-semites:

Quote
[size=10]Actually, it is dispensationalism who are the anti-Semites.  Their theology demands for a full return to the Middle East (their alleged land) for the purposes that their precious church can be raptured out of the way.  But raptured out of the way for what reason???  The reason is to avoid the slaughter and devastation that is allegedly going to come to the very Jews they say they love.  Two-thirds of these Jews (according to their own theology) are going to be slaughtered.

Yet these same dispensationalists promote (time, finances) the return to the alleged land for this outcome.  They are actively trying to hasten the time for their alleged rapture.
[/size]

The statement is false. The rapture will take place when the Church is near extinction (Revelation 12:17 - Revelation 13:10, Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 3:10).

It will be by the hand of the beast that Israel will gain global prominence (Daniel 9:27). There are some Futurists who are antisemitic. Antisemitism is a disease that sadly knows religious boundaries... but in Christendom it is due to the ignorance of:

Romans 11:28 (KJV)
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.

Preterism is a doctrine based upon replacement theology and is therefore based on antisemitism.

Quote
Israel was to be the FIRSTFRUITS to receive salvation as well as ALL promises. Therefore, they were to be the FIRST to be resurrected from the dead. Yet the dispensationalists say that non Jews will be resurrected first.

Wow. Salvation is first for the Jew then for the Gentile. When the Jewish leadership led the Jews astray, God went ahead with his plan for evangelizing the Gentiles... to return to the Jews in the last days (which is what the two tribulation periods are all about... to get the Jews who survive to the end of the 70th Week of Daniel as the Armageddon campaign rages on to cry out to Jesus which to them will be a last resort since nothing else has worked... SAVE NOW

HOSHA NAH (hosanna) blessed is he who comes in the name of the LORD.

And ALL the promises to the Jews do not now fall on the Christians. The land grants alone were unconditional (covenant of Abraham). The Jewish promises / covenants on earth are all for them here. The Christians have the promises of the afterlife / heaven.  

Quote
Second, both the resurrection and the rapture was promised to Israel (Hosea 13:14 w/ 1 Corinthians 15:50). Yet the dispensationalists say that the church will be raptured and not Israel. They totally take away the rapture from Israel.

I doubt thinker and those who buy into this teaching of Preterism will even consider what I am about to say as valid. So I do not even try to convince them. This is for truth seekers only:

God called apart his believers / faithful since at least the days of Abel. Hebrews 11 (the hall of faith) goes back that far. The distinction has always been between the spirit and the flesh. Spirituality verse worldliness. Always. Even in the calling out of Abram (versus the Chaldeans) and Isaac (versus Ishmael) and Jacob (versus Esau). It has been a marked spiritual path even among the children of Israel. For as the Apostle Paul pointed out when all Israel did not believe in the Jewish Messiah Jesus...

Romans 9:6 (NASB95)
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

Paul could only have meant that there is a physical Israel and there is a spirit Israel. And that not all born physical Israel were spirit Israel. And this is how he made the distinction:

Romans 2:28-29 (NASB95)
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise (literally his Jewishness) is not from men, but from God.

Jew / Judah = "praise" (Genesis 25:39)

And by the Gospel in the Old Testament (in the book written by the Prophet to the Gentiles):

Jeremiah 31:31-37 (NASB95)
31 “Behold, days are coming,
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EdwardGoodie

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Re: Anti-semitism
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2012, 10:05:20 AM »
John,

I believe you begin with a presupposition...I have to ask you these four questions in the hopes that you will answer them honestly:

What makes a person a Jew? 
Was Abraham's great, great grandfather a Jew? 
Was Abraham's great, great grandmother a Jew?
How should we view those who support the abuse of Palestinian Christians?

Initially I responded with "If you give me a legitimate question, I'll answer it."

But I see it is better that I say by the questions you ask I see you would not understand the answer AND you have already made up your mind about a great many things.

So why waste one another's time?

I expected as much...If you don't know, just say so.

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Re: Anti-semitism
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2012, 10:05:20 AM »

thethinker

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Re: Anti-semitism
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2012, 10:14:34 AM »
I said:
Quote
Israel was to be the FIRSTFRUITS to receive salvation as well as ALL promises. Therefore, they were to be the FIRST to be resurrected from the dead. Yet the dispensationalists say that non Jews will be resurrected first.


JohnDB70X7 replied:
Quote
Wow. Salvation is first for the Jew then for the Gentile. When the Jewish leadership led the Jews astray, God went ahead with his plan for evangelizing the Gentiles


Where does the scripture say that the Jewish leadership led the Jews astray?

Jesus said, "If I be lifted up I will draw ALL men unto Me." After the Jewish leadership rejected Paul's words he said,

"You are unworthy of eternal life, behold, we turn to the nations" (the common Jew).

After that they went ONLY into the synagogues and sought out the nations (the common people among the Jews).

Paul spoke to Gentiles on only one occasion in the book of Acts and he did not go there voluntarily. He was DRAGGED to the Areopagus and he took the opportunity to preach to them. Other than that he went only to the nations (the common Jewish people).

Quote
...to return to the Jews in the last days (which is what the two tribulation periods are all about... to get the Jews who survive to the end of the 70th Week of Daniel as the Armageddon campaign rages on to cry out to Jesus which to them will be a last resort since nothing else has worked... SAVE NOW


What a mess! Paul said of the salvation of the Jews,

"Even so at the PRESENT TIME there is a remnant according to the election of grace" (Romans 11:5).

Then he said, "The elect HAS OBTAINED IT" (past perfect tense.

The elect of Israel were being saved in Paul's "PRESENT TIME". Yet you say that it is still future. The elect of Israel have ALL been saved. After that God made their house "desolate" and they do not exist as a covenantal people anymore.

Furthermore, Jesus told His disciples that THEY would see the abomination of desolation (Daniel's 70th week).

Lastly, John said that he was in the tribulation with the seven churches.

"I, John am your fellow companion in the tribulation..." (Rev. 1:9).

thinker


Offline JohnDB70X7

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Re: Anti-semitism
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2012, 10:38:32 AM »
John,

I believe you begin with a presupposition...I have to ask you these four questions in the hopes that you will answer them honestly:

What makes a person a Jew? 
Was Abraham's great, great grandfather a Jew? 
Was Abraham's great, great grandmother a Jew?
How should we view those who support the abuse of Palestinian Christians?

Initially I responded with "If you give me a legitimate question, I'll answer it."

But I see it is better that I say by the questions you ask I see you would not understand the answer AND you have already made up your mind about a great many things.

So why waste one another's time?

I expected as much...If you don't know, just say so.

I do know.

Technically a Jew is a citizen of Judah / Judea the southern kingdom. It has been taken to mean all descendants of Israel and of all going back to the calling out of Abram from Ur of the Chaldeans... by the Jew's own reckoning... but actually no "Jew" existed until Judah was born to Leah wife of Jacob.

Now that I have answered your question, I expect you will attempt to take us down a rabbit trail as to who is a Jew and who is not...

YAWN... ho hum.
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Offline JohnDB70X7

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Re: Anti-semitism
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2012, 10:42:05 AM »
Where does the scripture say that the Jewish leadership led the Jews astray?

Matthew 23 (KJV)
1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.
21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

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thethinker

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Re: Anti-semitism
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2012, 01:29:46 PM »
Quote
Matthew 23 (KJV)
1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.
21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.


You were saying that the Jewish leadership led the Jews astray post-cross. So I asked you where the scripture says this and you give me Matthew 23 which refers to their shutting up the kingdom from people BEFORE Christ.



Jesus said that if He was lifted up He would "draw ALL men to Himself"(John 12:32). Paul said that at the "PRESENT TIME there is a remnant according to tte election of grace" (Rom. 11:5). He said that the remnant "HAS OBTAINED IT."

Really sir! A person who has been "seriously" studying the Bible since 1987 could do a better apologetic.

thinker

Offline JohnDB70X7

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Re: Anti-semitism
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2012, 07:30:04 PM »
Are you saying the Jewish leaders embraced Jesus after the cross?

And you call my quotation of scriptures that refuted your statement lame?

Wow.

I think raggtyme needs to give you some more manna for that imagination you got, pal.
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