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Offline faithys

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are court judges sinners?
« on: Thu Jun 26, 2008 - 01:50:16 »
hey all~
i gt a question,
is court judges sinner?

here is why i ask so
court judges, are judge for high court, or suprme court, they are give out death sentence, or life sentence to criminals, and deal out punishment,

by giving out death sentences, they are already condemming and taking away a person life.
in exodus verse 20.13, the ten commandment has it not to murder anyone, nor take other ppl life away from him.
bt the judges are condemming the criminals, they sentence them to death, and we all noe that only god can decide on a person fate,  and also it is a sin to take some one life away from him,
some may argue, if murderers remain alive, they may kill more ppl, bt consider that nt all want kill again, some seek redemptaion or salvation, and by condemming them, you are stoping them from seeking salvation, and knowing the gospel.
n if i nt wrong,
there was a verse, of jesus went to this place, the people was abt to stone this woman to death for adultary, they ask him to throw the first stone, he say " if anyone have nt sin before, feel free to stone her" and noone did. the judges i am sure, have sin be4, wat right is there to condemm the criminals?

hw do you feel abt this,
do u thk judges are sinners?


[Mod edit to correct title]
« Last Edit: Tue Jul 01, 2008 - 08:36:25 by jmg3rd »

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are court judges sinners?
« on: Thu Jun 26, 2008 - 01:50:16 »

Offline James Rondon

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Re: are court judges sinner?
« Reply #1 on: Thu Jun 26, 2008 - 01:59:31 »
do u thk judges are sinners?

I believe that all men have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (cf. Rom. 3:23).

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Re: are court judges sinner?
« Reply #1 on: Thu Jun 26, 2008 - 01:59:31 »

Craig Baugher

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Re: are court judges sinner?
« Reply #2 on: Thu Jun 26, 2008 - 07:35:17 »
Judges are doing the will of the people.  In most cases, a jury of 12 citizens decided guilt or innocence, and if the person lives or dies.  The Judge makes sure that the laws governing the rights of the people and the defendant are followed -- to assure the trial is fair.

Higher court judges, only review the proceedings of the lower court to assess if the trial was fair and all the rights of the people and the defendant was adhered too.  Again the decision of guilt or innocence, life or death actually came from the 12 jurist.


Offline Benjamin1981

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Re: are court judges sinner?
« Reply #3 on: Thu Jun 26, 2008 - 08:40:25 »
do u thk judges are sinners?

I believe that all men have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (cf. Rom. 3:23).

Agreed.

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Re: are court judges sinner?
« Reply #3 on: Thu Jun 26, 2008 - 08:40:25 »

Offline Bonnie

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Re: are court judges sinner?
« Reply #4 on: Thu Jun 26, 2008 - 13:16:34 »
Judges are doing the will of the people.  In most cases, a jury of 12 citizens decided guilt or innocence, and if the person lives or dies.  The Judge makes sure that the laws governing the rights of the people and the defendant are followed -- to assure the trial is fair.

Higher court judges, only review the proceedings of the lower court to assess if the trial was fair and all the rights of the people and the defendant was adhered too.  Again the decision of guilt or innocence, life or death actually came from the 12 jurist.



How can the unrighteous (I'd say in most cases) make a righteous decision?

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Re: are court judges sinner?
« Reply #4 on: Thu Jun 26, 2008 - 13:16:34 »



Offline Dennis

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Re: are court judges sinner?
« Reply #5 on: Thu Jun 26, 2008 - 16:02:59 »
Are judges necessarily committing sin by doing their jobs? no.

Would a judge be committing sin if that judge entered a judgment that actually is or that the judge believes to be contrary to God's will?  yes.

Is it necessarily sinful to impose the death penalty? Although I have struggled with this issue for [many] years, my current judgment is that no, it is not.  There are some crimes so heinous, I would have no trouble imposing the death penalty and even pulling the switch myself.

Craig Baugher

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Re: are court judges sinner?
« Reply #6 on: Thu Jun 26, 2008 - 16:38:26 »
How can the unrighteous (I'd say in most cases) make a righteous decision?

Ahhh... But it is our justice system.  12 members of your peers determine guilt or innocence.  Right or Wrong, it is what we use...

Offline zoonance

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Re: are court judges sinner?
« Reply #7 on: Thu Jun 26, 2008 - 17:19:42 »
Judges are doing the will of the people.  In most cases, a jury of 12 citizens decided guilt or innocence, and if the person lives or dies.  The Judge makes sure that the laws governing the rights of the people and the defendant are followed -- to assure the trial is fair.

Higher court judges, only review the proceedings of the lower court to assess if the trial was fair and all the rights of the people and the defendant was adhered too.  Again the decision of guilt or innocence, life or death actually came from the 12 jurist.



How can the unrighteous (I'd say in most cases) make a righteous decision?


I think a righteous (correct, factual, just, etc.) decision is righteous because it is, regardless of the source.   That isn't to say that mistakes are never made nor that vengeful or ungodly motive can not cloud justice.  But biblical principles are right and true whether or not the judge and jury recognized that they had applied them without even knowing it.  If I made any sense.  Receiving the consequence for an action can be just.  Only the blood of Jesus keeps us from receiving the consequences for an eternity.

Offline Jimbob

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Re: are court judges sinner?
« Reply #8 on: Thu Jun 26, 2008 - 17:27:19 »
What?  No Romans 13 quote yet?

Offline zoonance

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Re: are court judges sinner?
« Reply #9 on: Thu Jun 26, 2008 - 17:36:17 »
Paul didn't understand our jury system when he penned the letter to the roman church.  He probably figured that some roman magestrate might get a copy of the letter.   ::whistle::

Offline faithys

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Re: are court judges sinner?
« Reply #10 on: Thu Jun 26, 2008 - 23:13:45 »
Is it necessarily sinful to impose the death penalty? Although I have struggled with this issue for [many] years, my current judgment is that no, it is not.  There are some crimes so heinous, I would have no trouble imposing the death penalty and even pulling the switch myself.

if crimes are heinous, and some criminal deserve the hang, the qn is who are we to criticize the ppl, and decide his own fate and live.  by punishing the sinner to death, you also have taken someone life, and like him, you have commited a sin of killing.
only god have the power to punish and control one person fate, and he shall punish the criminals in his own way and not decided by human being.

Offline Gracious

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Re: are court judges sinner?
« Reply #11 on: Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 00:44:05 »
Quote
1 Corinthians 6:1-8
(New International Reader's Version)
Do Not Take Believers to Court

1 Suppose one of you wants to bring a charge against another believer. Should you take it to the ungodly to be judged? Why not take it to God's people?
2 Don't you know that God's people will judge the world? And if you are going to judge the world, aren't you able to judge small cases? 3 Don't you know that we will judge angels? Then we should be able to judge the things of this life even more!
4 So if you want to press charges in matters like that, appoint as judges members of the church who aren't very important! 5 I say this to shame you. Is it possible that no one among you is wise enough to judge matters between believers? 6 Instead, one believer goes to court against another. And this happens in front of unbelievers!
7 The very fact that you take another believer to court means you have lost the battle already. Why not be treated wrongly? Why not be cheated? 8 Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong. And you do it to your brothers and sisters.

From this scripture, perhaps we can glean that it is not biblical for a Christ-Follower (a Christian) to take another Christ-Follower to court? And further, in Paul’s epistle, he goes on to explain why this is. (v.2-7)  Here Paul teaches that  it would be  better for us to be taken advantage of, or even abused, than it would be for us to push a person even further away from Christ by taking them to court. Maybe this is his reason for asking … “What is more important, a legal battle, or the battle for a person’s eternal soul?”

Yet, could there be instances when “judges” could be necessary … especially concerning reconciliation?  (Matthew 18:15-17) And the offending party is still in the wrong, in some instances; a lawsuit might be the proper thing to do. Scripture appears to sanction court action … “only” after much prayer for wisdom (James 1:5) and consultation with spiritual leadership.


 ::reading::

Offline Bonnie

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Re: are court judges sinner?
« Reply #12 on: Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 06:04:24 »
How can the unrighteous (I'd say in most cases) make a righteous decision?

Ahhh... But it is our justice system.  12 members of your peers determine guilt or innocence.  Right or Wrong, it is what we use...

The whole thing is crooked from beginning to end.  I'd say over 90% of the lawyers will do anything it takes to win their case and that includes lying.

The jury cannot know anyone or be connected in any way with the issues of the crime.  We're not suppose to judge between that which we know nothing about.  How would you know if those who testify are telling the truth?

This is a world system which I don't feel as a Christian at liberty to partake in.


Offline Dennis

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Re: are court judges sinner?
« Reply #13 on: Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 08:51:36 »
Is it necessarily sinful to impose the death penalty? Although I have struggled with this issue for [many] years, my current judgment is that no, it is not.  There are some crimes so heinous, I would have no trouble imposing the death penalty and even pulling the switch myself.

if crimes are heinous, and some criminal deserve the hang, the qn is who are we to criticize the ppl, and decide his own fate and live.  by punishing the sinner to death, you also have taken someone life, and like him, you have commited a sin of killing.
only god have the power to punish and control one person fate, and he shall punish the criminals in his own way and not decided by human being.
And God said he used his servants to do that.  jmg3rd alluded to Romans 13 above.  Here is a quote:

Quote
13Let every person be subject to the governing authorities; for there is no authority except from God, and those authorities that exist have been instituted by God. 2Therefore whoever resists authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgement. 3For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Do you wish to have no fear of the authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive its approval; 4for it is God’s servant for your good. But if you do what is wrong, you should be afraid, for the authority does not bear the sword in vain! It is the servant of God to execute wrath on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore one must be subject, not only because of wrath but also because of conscience. 6For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, busy with this very thing. 7Pay to all what is due to them—taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honour to whom honour is due.

If the governing authorities are God's servants to execute wrath on the wrongdoer and do not bear the sword in vain [which I think most agree is an allusion to capital punishment], then on what basis can you establish an across the board prohibition on Christan's serving in that capacity?  Would it make a difference if capital punishment was not an option?

Offline Jimbob

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Re: are court judges sinner?
« Reply #14 on: Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 08:57:58 »
A belief that capital punishment is universally immoral is rationally problematic, istm.  God instituted the death penalty in Israel, and he allowed the judges and city elders to both discern guilt/innocence, and and enforce the punishment.  Therefore, if capital punishment is universally immoral, you have God condoning immorality.  That doesn't wash, istm.  One can object that it was different because it was God who defined the parameters.  However, some of our nation's parameters mirror those of the old law (death penalty in murder cases, for example, and discernment by judges/humans without divine intervention to determine guilt/innocence).

Offline Bonnie

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Re: are court judges sinner?
« Reply #15 on: Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 09:03:37 »
But we must not ignore the last of chapter 12 which precedes the scripture from chapter 13.

17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline Jimbob

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Re: are court judges sinner?
« Reply #16 on: Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 09:09:01 »
Nor can you frame it in opposition to 13.  You have no right to seek revenge against a murderer or a drunk driver who runs over your child.  You do have the right to seek and expect justice through the court system.  Justice in these situations is the court's job (Romans 13) not yours (Romans 12).

The same was true under the LoM.  A murderer was to be handled according to the law (justice), not according to your private judgment and execution (aka revenge).

Offline Bonnie

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Re: are court judges sinner?
« Reply #17 on: Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 09:15:41 »
Nor can you frame it in opposition to 13.  You have no right to seek revenge against a murderer or a drunk driver who runs over your child.  You do have the right to seek and expect justice through the court system.  Justice in these situations is the court's job (Romans 13) not yours (Romans 12).

The same was true under the LoM.  A murderer was to be handled according to the law (justice), not according to your private judgment and execution (aka revenge).

Followers of Jesus are to humbly obey, but remain "spiritually" separate from the civil authorities, and are forbidden to join with them in the killing of their enemies, Romans 12:9-13:7, John 18:36-37. We are not to blur the distinctions between the two kingdoms.  As Jesus said....my kingdom is not of this world.  We are to be a separate people.

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Re: are court judges sinner?
« Reply #18 on: Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 09:22:00 »
The passages you reference do not make the statement you make in regard to Christians not being able to serve in civil justice departments, nor do they address the fact that God's theocracy (Israel) had people serving in such capacities, which some might say reveals precedent and principle. 

------------

::pondering:: Does anyone really think the idea of abandoning all levels of civil justice to the godless and faithless is a good idea?  Really?

Offline Bonnie

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Re: are court judges sinner?
« Reply #19 on: Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 09:26:33 »
The passages you reference do not make the statement you make in regard to Christians not being able to serve in civil justice departments, nor do they address the fact that God's theocracy (Israel) had people serving in such capacities, which some might say reveals precedent and principle. 

------------

::pondering:: Does anyone really think the idea of abandoning all levels of civil justice to the godless and faithless is a good idea?  Really?

God appointed those laws of the OT.  Not Godless men such as we have in governement today.
I just think that revenge is high on the list of most politically minded people.  Christians should be seeking peace and showing the love of God to a secular world filled with hatred and the selfishness of its master.

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Re: are court judges sinner?
« Reply #20 on: Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 09:37:51 »
Your point of view, however, that Christians should not participate in civil justice, only insures to an even greater extent that the court system will be godless.  Think about that for a minute.  Do you want a Christian-free court system?  Really?

Offline Bonnie

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Re: are court judges sinner?
« Reply #21 on: Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 09:43:33 »
Your point of view, however, that Christians should not participate in civil justice, only insures to an even greater extent that govt. will be godless.  Think about that for a minute.

It already is except for the power God Himself holds over it.
This fallen world has Satan as its god. He is the prince of it. Although his power is limited it's what is wrong.  You surely don't believe that a true man of God could get anywhere in this evil and corrupt world we live in and remain faithful to his Master.

Offline icy_summer

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Re: are court judges sinner?
« Reply #22 on: Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 10:01:45 »
Your point of view, however, that Christians should not participate in civil justice, only insures to an even greater extent that the court system will be godless.  Think about that for a minute.  Do you want a Christian-free court system?  Really?
Look at what you're saying. You're saying that for the sake of preventing a Christian-free court system, we should not listen to God and instead assist in the killing of our enemies.

Offline faithys

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Re: are court judges sinner?
« Reply #23 on: Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 10:08:23 »
If the governing authorities are God's servants to execute wrath on the wrongdoer and do not bear the sword in vain [which I think most agree is an allusion to capital punishment], then on what basis can you establish an across the board prohibition on Christan's serving in that capacity?  Would it make a difference if capital punishment was not an option?

it is execute punishment on ppl who did wrong, but how wrong a ppl can is, a judge is not the victem family, nor the murderer family, all they does is analysis and weight the offence of criminal, before dishing punishment to him.
god say to forgive people, and not bear grudges, and also to allow ppl to seek salvation. by *executing wrath on wrongdoers*, you have already hated him, and allow the victem family to bear grudge on him, you have also prevent him to seek salvation. the two criminals who was crucified tgther with jesus, one ask him "remeber me when you are in heaven" he replied " well, i tell you the truth, today we are going to paradise"
NW, if a wrongdoers, willing to accept christ, and look for forgiveness, how can you punish them with death, you are not forgiving him for his crime, and you are ripping him for a chance to live a life with christ. which of this option do you prefer
a) a criminal who accept christ, and willing live a life with righteous
b) a criminal who is going to be hang and nver able hear gods name
think about that....

capital punishment is hanging ppl to death, i dun understand your view, if capital punishment is not an option, are u saying that all shall be hang, or it is abolish

Offline faithys

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Re: are court judges sinner?
« Reply #24 on: Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 10:12:52 »
however, that Christians should not participate in civil justice, only insures to an even greater extent that the court system will be godless.  Think about that for a minute.  Do you want a Christian-free court system?  Really?


just raising to the point u were saying,
a court system is based on human make, law of todays is decided by human, and the law is haywire of wat god wanted the law to be or added on to many more law

Offline Jimbob

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Re: are court judges sinner?
« Reply #25 on: Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 10:26:31 »
Your point of view, however, that Christians should not participate in civil justice, only insures to an even greater extent that govt. will be godless.  Think about that for a minute.

It already is except for the power God Himself holds over it.
This fallen world has Satan as its god. He is the prince of it. Although his power is limited it's what is wrong.  You surely don't believe that a true man of God could get anywhere in this evil and corrupt world we live in and remain faithful to his Master.
Joseph.  Genesis 36-50

Offline Bonnie

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Re: are court judges sinner?
« Reply #26 on: Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 17:37:24 »
Your point of view, however, that Christians should not participate in civil justice, only insures to an even greater extent that govt. will be godless.  Think about that for a minute.

It already is except for the power God Himself holds over it.
This fallen world has Satan as its god. He is the prince of it. Although his power is limited it's what is wrong.  You surely don't believe that a true man of God could get anywhere in this evil and corrupt world we live in and remain faithful to his Master.
Joseph.  Genesis 36-50

The story of Joseph is different.  Like Daniel, God had given him the ability to interpret dreams.
Joseph had been given dreams of God’s plan for his life; so with confidence and strength, he endured being sold into slavery.  Earned favor of the officer of Pharaoh by revealing the meaning of a dream as Daniel did with King  Nebuchadnezzar.  Through that he was able to save his people from famine.


Offline Jimbob

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Re: are court judges sinner?
« Reply #27 on: Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 19:15:48 »
Interpreting dreams has nothing to do with  the topic at hand, Bonnie.  That's a dodge.  The same God that strengthen Joseph and guided him guides His people today.

I would submit that if you believe God isn't big enough to keep people faithful in public service, you need to reexamine some of your conclusions.

That's it for me, no runnin' round this mulberry bush any longer.

Offline Bonnie

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Re: are court judges sinner?
« Reply #28 on: Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 19:37:13 »
Interpreting dreams has nothing to do with  the topic at hand, Bonnie.  That's a dodge.  The same God that strengthen Joseph and guided him guides His people today.

I would submit that if you believe God isn't big enough to keep people faithful in public service, you need to reexamine some of your conclusions.

That's it for me, no runnin' round this mulberry bush any longer.

I didn't mean that as a dodge but in explanation. God dealt differently with His people in the OT.  Joseph's enitre life had a greater meaning and was predestined.
Of course God is big enough to keep His people now as well.  But His Word is against us being involved in the the things of the secular world's judgements as I have pointed out. You can't deal with them on an honest level for they don't care about that.  The Bible tells us not to put ourselves in such situations.  But if the Bible can't convince you I surely can't.

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Re: are court judges sinner?
« Reply #29 on: Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 20:34:33 »
It's not the BIBLE that's unconvincing, Bonnie.  In fact it's the BIBLE that convinces me not to agree with your point of view.

Offline Dennis

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Re: are court judges sinner?
« Reply #30 on: Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 21:10:17 »
Interpreting dreams has nothing to do with  the topic at hand, Bonnie.  That's a dodge.  The same God that strengthen Joseph and guided him guides His people today.

I would submit that if you believe God isn't big enough to keep people faithful in public service, you need to reexamine some of your conclusions.

That's it for me, no runnin' round this mulberry bush any longer.

I didn't mean that as a dodge but in explanation. God dealt differently with His people in the OT.  Joseph's enitre life had a greater meaning and was predestined.
Of course God is big enough to keep His people now as well.  But His Word is against us being involved in the the things of the secular world's judgements as I have pointed out. You can't deal with them on an honest level for they don't care about that.  The Bible tells us not to put ourselves in such situations.  But if the Bible can't convince you I surely can't.
But the passages you have cited do not address the porposition you are aruing.

Let me ask you this: if Christians are not to participate in secular government, why were the Philippian jailer and Cornelius not instructed to change professions?  Or what about Eastus the City treasurer [Rom 16:23]?

Offline Bonnie

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Re: are court judges sinner?
« Reply #31 on: Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 21:12:37 »
It's not the BIBLE that's unconvincing, Bonnie.  In fact it's the BIBLE that convinces me not to agree with your point of view.

Well, if you or anyone else can be involved in those things and still wear a garment unspotted by the world... I think you'd be doing so in spite of what the Bible teaches.
I won't argue over it.  Debate isn't the point or goal.  It's the truth that should matter.

Peace

Offline faithys

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Re: are court judges sinner?
« Reply #32 on: Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 22:06:17 »
Well, if you or anyone else can be involved in those things and still wear a garment unspotted by the world... I think you'd be doing so in spite of what the Bible teaches.
I won't argue over it.  Debate isn't the point or goal.  It's the truth that should matter.
Peace
debate is abt making your stand, and stating clearly why your points stand outs clearly,
this topic is a discussion, and convincing others to take one side.

Offline Bonnie

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Re: are court judges sinner?
« Reply #33 on: Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 22:54:46 »
Interpreting dreams has nothing to do with  the topic at hand, Bonnie.  That's a dodge.  The same God that strengthen Joseph and guided him guides His people today.

I would submit that if you believe God isn't big enough to keep people faithful in public service, you need to reexamine some of your conclusions.

That's it for me, no runnin' round this mulberry bush any longer.

I didn't mean that as a dodge but in explanation. God dealt differently with His people in the OT.  Joseph's entire life had a greater meaning and was predestined.
Of course God is big enough to keep His people now as well.  But His Word is against us being involved in the the things of the secular world's judgements as I have pointed out. You can't deal with them on an honest level for they don't care about that.  The Bible tells us not to put ourselves in such situations.  But if the Bible can't convince you I surely can't.
But the passages you have cited do not address the porposition you are aruing.

Let me ask you this: if Christians are not to participate in secular government, why were the Philippian jailer and Cornelius not instructed to change professions?  Or what about Eastus the City treasurer [Rom 16:23]?

Why do you say what I have posted doesn't support the issue?

We don't really know what happened after the conversion of the Philippian jailer or of Cornelius. Or at least I don't recall anything further.  Rather than add confusion we should stick with what the Bible does tell us.

My husband works for the city. It's off topic really to bring that in with making judgments in courts and being involved in politics on a state or national level.

Apostle Paul says in 1Corinthians 5:12  For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

1Corinthians 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Our duty is to take care of the business of the church and to be about our Father's work.
Where does Jesus ever command or suggest that we become involved in the affairs of the world?  He commissions us to go forth and make disciples.  Paul further says that no man that warreth entangles himself in the affairs of this world.




« Last Edit: Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 23:03:11 by Bonnie »

Offline Bonnie

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Re: are court judges sinner?
« Reply #34 on: Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 23:17:58 »
Well, if you or anyone else can be involved in those things and still wear a garment unspotted by the world... I think you'd be doing so in spite of what the Bible teaches.
I won't argue over it.  Debate isn't the point or goal.  It's the truth that should matter.
Peace
debate is abt making your stand, and stating clearly why your points stand outs clearly,
this topic is a discussion, and convincing others to take one side.

I appreciate your encouragement and your desire for truth.  I think common sense along with the Bible should be enough to convince those opposed to living a separated life unto God but it seems in most cases it does not.

History and what has been since the days of Constantine have more influence and is so ingrained in the American way of life that the Bible is rarely sought for answers.

When Peter cut the ear off of the soldier Jesus told him to put his sword away; and He healed the man although he was his enemy.  He said plainly that He would fight if this world was His kingdom but that it was not; and neither is it ours.

God Bless

 

     
anything